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ears2hear
Apr 25th 2009, 11:56 PM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?

bagofseed
Apr 26th 2009, 12:08 AM
What does Christ crucified mean?

fuzzi
Apr 26th 2009, 12:17 AM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?
What did Jesus say about doctrine?

"And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:15-17)

Seems God thought it was important to teach us His doctrine, so maybe we should consider it to be important, too.

Perpetua
Apr 26th 2009, 12:29 AM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?

God gave us the Bible as His revelation, so He thought it important enough for us to study and learn from it. He could have given far less revelation, but He didn't.

Also, without doctrine and understanding of the details, many people may say they all believe in Christ yet actually they mean something different from the God of the Bible. After all, Mormons have a Jesus in their religion, and so do Jehovah Witnesses and the Muslims, but their idea and definition of who Jesus is are quite different from the Bible.

crossnote
Apr 26th 2009, 05:24 AM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?

Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heavens Gate, Mormons, JW's, Judaizers etc. etc.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(2Pe 1:20-21)

It is the intended meaning of the Holy Spirit that our interpretation should aim for.

BroRog
Apr 26th 2009, 06:22 AM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?

Some doctrine is correct; other doctrine is in error. You have given us one of the correct doctrines. Keep up the good work.

Sojourner
Apr 26th 2009, 08:12 AM
The Apostle told Timothy: "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine"

Doctrine is the church's skeleton, without doctrine we would a blob, not able to walk, stand, or work. :2cents:

ears2hear
Apr 26th 2009, 03:24 PM
Thank you everyone.

I think the reason why I am asking this question is because of a conversation my husband and I had with friends. They believe many things that are contrary to what we beleive. Yes, they are Believers and worship God in Spirit and in Truth...however it just got us thinking.

We are starting to lean towards the notion that ALL Christian doctrine has error. When the bible was written, it was God breathed, right? It was the Words of the Father put down on paper. I understand that and accept that fully. What I am struggling with is the fact that MAN since then has interpreted scripture to the best of his or her ability...told US what scripture means and what to look for in a person to see if they are IN or OUT of this club. (sorry but that is how i am starting to feel with some of this doctrine.)

This all started when our friends invited us to the little Reformed Baptist church and we then discovered that they had an almost rule book to tell them whether someone had a true conversersion or not.

So, I started to dig into the two main doctrines...Calvinism and Armenianism (sorry for the spelling). I just can't see where both of these men's doctrines are 100% correct.

When it gets to doctrine...I find that it is so divisive. I look on this board and the threads dealing with babies going to heaven or not and all those like that and really...It's out of our control! God is sovereign and His will alone is perfect. Why get into such a debate about it all?

To me doctrines push us apart, they don't unite us.

Sojourner
Apr 26th 2009, 04:22 PM
To me doctrines push us apart, they don't unite us.So be it, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household."

sistershalom
Apr 26th 2009, 07:07 PM
Because the bible worns us of doctrins taught by devils in the end times... and again beware of the "doctrine" of the pharacies and saducies... here is a scripture pro~doctrine...

2 Timothy 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

the bad doctrine can lead you astray from CHRIST crusified and much more...

ears2hear
Apr 26th 2009, 09:10 PM
Because the bible worns us of doctrins taught by devils in the end times... and again beware of the "doctrine" of the pharacies and saducies... here is a scripture pro~doctrine...

2 Timothy 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

the bad doctrine can lead you astray from CHRIST crusified and much more...

I realize this. I am not saying that we throw out sound doctrine, but my question is WHO is right? Calvin? Armenian...? No, this is not a debate on those two founders...this is just a pondering on my part regarding how do we know who is right?

kay-gee
Apr 26th 2009, 09:20 PM
It is easier than it seems. "Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar." (Romans 3:4) Stick with Gods word! You can't go wrong.

all the best..

sistershalom
Apr 26th 2009, 09:38 PM
I pray for the SPIRIT OF TRUTH...
Sorry for the misunderstanding...
I must have read your post wrong...

billy-brown 2
Apr 26th 2009, 10:23 PM
I realize this. I am not saying that we throw out sound doctrine, but my question is WHO is right? Calvin? Armenian...? No, this is not a debate on those two founders...this is just a pondering on my part regarding how do we know who is right?

Most of the issues of the OP are represented in one chapter of Holy Scripture: 1 Corinthians 3:

1 Corinthians 3
1 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-1.htm) And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-2.htm) I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-3.htm) for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
4 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-4.htm) For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?

5 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-5.htm) What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-6.htm) I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-7.htm) So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-8.htm) Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-9.htm) For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-10.htm) According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-11.htm) For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-12.htm) Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-13.htm) each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-14.htm) If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-15.htm) If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-16.htm) Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-17.htm) If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

18 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-18.htm) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-19.htm) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS”;
20 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-20.htm) and again, “THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS.”
21 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-21.htm) So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,
22 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-22.htm) whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
23 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-23.htm) and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

Now, Paul has asked the Corinthians to receive what belongs to them--i.e., the doctrinal teaching from Paul, Apollos, or Peter (Cephas) or anyone else (all things belonged to them, indeed).

This, of course, required some maturation of the part of the Corinthians--because they were saying the following:

1 Cor 3:4b
4 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-4.htm) . . . “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” . . .

and so on.

Thus, doctrine is not going anywhere at all.

So, what can we do about this?

Well, I am developing this premise in my own life:

All true doctrine--if it is true--must achieve congruence with the message of "the Word of the truth of the Kingdom of Christ Jesus."

So, as we have clear understanding of "the Gospel of Jesus Christ", we can develop sufficient "discernment" with respect to "truth" and "error" in our lives.

The issue here, though, seems to be this: our God allowed Jesus to "descend" and "ascend" and endure everything for us, and specifically so that we could "have all of the gift ministry" that we have.

This resource of "gift ministry", then, is given by Christ--and is not going anywhere at all.

Nevertheless, the most important resource we have for consideration of correct doctrine is Jesus Christ Himself (along with the Holy Spirit). As you know, the writer of the Revelation gives us several examples of false teaching among the people of God--and Jesus personally confronts it:

Rev. 2:14-16

14 (http://bible.cc/revelation/2-14.htm) ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15 (http://bible.cc/revelation/2-15.htm) ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
16 (http://bible.cc/revelation/2-16.htm) ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Now, our Lord loves us so much--therefore, He comes on the scene Himself and "rebukes and chastens us" so that we might "be zealous and repent"--and He does this so we might bear "more fruit" and so on.

Even the Laodicean Church was told by Christ "I am about to spit you out of my mouth--unless you repent." (This is the literal Greek configuration of this concept.)

Rev. 3:14-16
14 (http://bible.cc/revelation/3-14.htm) “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 (http://bible.cc/revelation/3-15.htm) ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
16 (http://bible.cc/revelation/3-16.htm) ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will (the literal Greek has "I am about to") spit you out of My mouth.

Now, we want to listen to Jesus--He is truth, indeed, and perfect and so on.

But, our Savior has said that "His people can represent Him in His Name" in this world--and He often uses His people to "build His Body"--so that the "gates of Hell would not prevail" and so on. Of course, people are still developing--and are not so perfect yet.

Nevertheless, don't be concerned about how God's will get truth to His people--He's got all of this covered, and has a variety of avenues to get Gospel Truth to His people::pp

1) The Lord Jesus Himself.
2) The Holy Spirit (the abiding anointing that teaches--I John 2:27).
3) ALL of the SAINTS--as they would be used in "gift ministry."
4) The Heavens and The Creation (Psalm 19).
5) etc. . . .

With this arsenal, we will be just fine . . .

My hope, of course, is that we will all develop in discernment.

Let us hold to the good, and discard the bad:

1 Thess 5:12-22
12 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-12.htm) But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,
13 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-13.htm) and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.
14 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-14.htm) We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
15 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-15.htm) See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
16 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-16.htm) Rejoice always;
17 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-17.htm) pray without ceasing;
18 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-18.htm) in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
19 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-19.htm) Do not quench the Spirit;
20 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-20.htm) do not despise prophetic utterances.
21 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-21.htm) But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/5-22.htm) abstain from every form of evil.

Let us all learn the correct answer(s) to the question "What is the Gospel?" and we will be OK also.

Tomlane
Apr 27th 2009, 03:40 AM
Yes why bother with Doctrine if we don't ask God for wisdom and use our bibles for toilet paper and to start a wood fire with? Our grocer can't eat for us and our spiritual leaders or the folks next door can't eat spiritually for us. We are told to study to show ourselves approved and to asked God for wisdom. God says hes not the author of confusion and I know we can't make a liar out of Him but he says for us to study then we can know because if we are born again of spirit we have the mind of Christ and have the spirit of truth and error.

Don't take my word for it, study the word and ask God.

Tomlane

bagofseed
Apr 27th 2009, 04:14 AM
To me doctrines push us apart, they don't unite us.
That is also a doctrine, doctrine is something we hold as true.

Spirit and Truth, are required.

We each need to know (experience) the truth for our selves, cant depend on others to tell us.

We need to seek and knock and rely on God to guide us to what is His opinion.

We personally need to know the God who is true and makes things true, so we ourselves might be made true.

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 04:01 AM
I think we can look at it another way too. As Christians we are obligated to listen to Jesus and his apostles because they have belief authority over us. And so each Christian is responsible to read, study, and learn the words of Jesus and the Apostles and to obey Jesus to the best of our ability.

Doctrine is a short cut in which someone else has done much of the hard work for us. Someone else has read, studied, and learned what Jesus and the Apostles have said and taught, and they have formulated their teaching into doctrinal statements.

These doctrinal statements are as good as the skill, discipline and integrity of the person doing the Bible study. And many of these doctrinal statements are a good guide for us to use temporarily until we investigate things for ourselves.

In the mean time, we need to know that even if these people are highly skilled and highly dedicated to integrity, they make mistakes. And so, ultimately we are responsible for doing our own work with the scriptures to draw our own conclusions and to make up our own mind, convinced that what we believe is according to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

Vhayes
Apr 28th 2009, 04:07 AM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?
So we can learn how to crawl, then walk, then run. So we can be the people God would have us be.

Hebrews 5
12 - For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 - For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 - But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

kay-gee
Apr 28th 2009, 12:02 PM
The whole problem lies in PRE-CONCIEVED doctrine. The student enters into Bible study looking for proof texts to uphold the doctrine that he has been taught and holds as true.
No where is this more evident than right here on this board.
It is easy to point fingers at Mormons and JW's but I feel everyone does it.
I believe that if we all sought Spirit and truth rather than proof for pre-concieved doctrine, we could achieve that elusive UNITY we all seek.

God is not confused. Men are!

all the best...

TrophyofGrace
Apr 28th 2009, 12:49 PM
2Ti*3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti*3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Doctrine is simply Bible truth:

Joh*7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh*7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jesus told us He'd be divisive:

Mt*10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mt*10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mt*10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

ears2hear
Apr 28th 2009, 04:33 PM
Thank you everyone.:)

So, in short: What I am reading here for the most part is that there IS a right and a wrong doctrine.
It IS my job as a follower of Christ to search the scriptures for myself and to come up with my own conclusions.

grit
Apr 28th 2009, 05:24 PM
Thank you everyone.:)

So, in short: What I am reading here for the most part is that there IS a right and a wrong doctrine.
It IS my job as a follower of Christ to search the scriptures for myself and to come up with my own conclusions.
God bless us, even THAT is subject to differences of opinion.

I would agree with you, that a person bears a lot of personal responsibility toward their own study of the Scriptures and walk with the LORD. The Scriptures confirm that ultimately we each must give an individual account before God.

However, for much of both Jewish and Christian history a great weight of responsibility was placed on a priestly class. For example, one of the aspect that slowed our having the Christian Bible in the languages of the common people is that it was thought too dangerous for common folk to dabble in – that only trained, learned, and spiritually dedicated men were in a position to properly interpret the Scriptures, and anyone else who tried was simply asking for trouble. One of the priestly complaints was that we would wind up just as we have (and as attested in previous history) with more errant interpretations spread throughout Christendom than one could shake a stick at. That’s why for a large part of both Jewish and Christian history the people were told what they could and could not believe by trained priests, though it still didn’t stop our inclination to differences of opinion.

The early Christian communities were far more divided and diverse than we usually find ourselves to be. We immediately see Paul’s struggle for the Church to be both unified and correct in doctrine, and for various reasons (including how Christianity initially spread throughout the Roman Empire in the midst of persecution, isolation of various groups, and challenges in authority and communication) it wasn’t until the emperor Constantine’s tolerance and use of Christianity to unify his empire that attempts at solidifying a more coherent consistency throughout Christendom met with some success. Those who disagreed were simply silenced one way or another.

Since the Protestant Reformation, initially intended to rectify the wrongs that had crept in and become the standard within the priestly class, personal responsibility has once again been championed. This doesn’t mean the great wealth of Church tradition and the wisdom and knowledge of studied professionals is not valued. Many times the wayward imaginings of individual interpretations ought to give place to seasoned professionals or the unanimity of a church body, but many Christians (perhaps especially as Protestants) claim that the Holy Spirit is not restricted to only enlightening the minds of trained men or venerable assemblies – that some balance is warranted between submission to lawful authorities and the exercise of whatever gifts the Holy Spirit might bless upon an individual, always with the understanding that individual gifts and contributions are meant to enrich and build up the whole Christian body of believers.

I think part of why God has given us our lingering time here and allowed for such diversity is to have us learn the value of both peace and puirty. We really can't have one without the other, but we each learn sooooo much in trying to balance the two. But even the differences in how we balance them is a matter of Christian doctrine. Not one of us would say that Christ is not King, but how he would have us act as stewards this side of Heaven remains a difference of opinion in what we individually find in the Scriptures.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 06:13 PM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?

Doctrine is important but we must know what is sound doctrine.

2 Tim 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Tit 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Tit 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Brother Mark
Apr 28th 2009, 06:57 PM
When it gets to doctrine...I find that it is so divisive. I look on this board and the threads dealing with babies going to heaven or not and all those like that and really...It's out of our control! God is sovereign and His will alone is perfect. Why get into such a debate about it all?

To me doctrines push us apart, they don't unite us.


1 Cor 11:17-20

17 But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you.
NASB

Prufrock
Apr 28th 2009, 09:45 PM
When it gets to doctrine...I find that it is so divisive. I look on this board and the threads dealing with babies going to heaven or not and all those like that and really...It's out of our control! God is sovereign and His will alone is perfect. Why get into such a debate about it all?

To me doctrines push us apart, they don't unite us.
I certainly agree with you that the endless disputations between Calvinists, Arminians, and others are frustrating and, on occasion, maddening. As a new Christian, I was well-versed in the Reformed, Calvinistic doctrines; since that time, I have become a Baptist - - - i.e., a non-Calvinistic Baptist!

But neither Calvin nor Arminius was crucified for me, and I am indwelt by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, not the spirit of one of those men. A wise Presbyterian pastor once said to me, "Some men see Christ in the light of Calvin; I see Calvin in the light of Christ." I've never heard it put better.

Having said all that, I agree with Sojourner that unity is not the be-all and the end-all of the Christian experience, nor is it to be the primary goal of the Christian church. Contrary to what so many great men have taught, "the mark of the Christian" is not love, or perfect fellowship among believers: it is boldness. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).

Yes, Jesus prayed that we might all be one. And that prayer has already been answered:

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:27, 28).

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-7).

If there's a problem in "Christendom" today, it's too much unity, not too little. Unity was the goal at Babel, and will be the goal of the Antichrist: it cannot be the primary goal for the child of God. Our goal is to be conformed to our Master, not to one another.

Bernie
Apr 28th 2009, 11:02 PM
Isn't much of it man made opinions of scripture? Why do we need any more than Christ crucified?
I believe so, yes. I wouldn't guess at a percentage, not terribly high I don't think, but I find many Christians treat their particular doctrine as equal to truth. This is dangerous. Only Christ is Truth, His truth is found in Scripture, and doctrine (our interpretation of His meaning in Scripture) is laced with the mortar of manmade error. One of the most common phrases in debate is, "Well, the Bible says..." which is then followed by the doctrine that person has been taught. I suspect the Bible as a spiritual book says far more than we allow it to say.

BTW, I find Bro Roger's comments in this thread to be very astute. Good stuff.

Teke
Apr 29th 2009, 01:55 PM
Thank you everyone.:)

So, in short: What I am reading here for the most part is that there IS a right and a wrong doctrine.
It IS my job as a follower of Christ to search the scriptures for myself and to come up with my own conclusions.

Hi Ears :)

Yes there is right and wrong doctrinal statements. PruFrock has made a good point on the subject. I would add to what that poster has said about 'boldness" wherein such boldness lies is with Jesus and the Apostles teachings. Note the verse posted.

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13)

"they took knowledge of them" is a two way street. By their perception of what knowledge was presented to them, they perceived "that they had been with Jesus".

With the Spirit's guidance, we can perceive if one who boldly speaks has the authority of knowledge that was given by Jesus and His Apostles. As our "own conclusions" are usually lacking, in that, that is all we "own".

Scruffy Kid
Apr 29th 2009, 05:44 PM
in short: What I am reading here for the most part is that there IS a right and a wrong doctrine. Certainly that's true! We need to work earnestly to stay in the truth! It's easy to get off base -- not just because other people make mistakes, but because we ourselves easily make mistakes. (Of course that's true of every area of life!)

Especially, we need to seek to stay in the truth of Christ: Jesus is, as He told us, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And He told us, too, that as we know the truth the truth sets us free. Staying in the truth, as it is found in Christ, certainly includes earnestly seeking to rightly understand what Christ, what the Bible, what the Christian faith, teaches. ("Doctrine" just means "teaching".)

Understanding, IMO, involves more than just correct teaching or interpretation, however. Jesus said "if anyone wants to know whether my teaching is true, let him obey the teaching, and then he will know" -- or words to that effect. Staying in the truth, even staying in the truth doctrinally, involves seeking correct doctrine, right teaching, but it's also a matter of living according to Christ's way -- trusting God, being virtuous, praying, being humble, confessing our sins, loving God, loving other people, forgiving, submitting our ways and our desires (will) to God, and so on. It's as we do this, I think, that we are most likely to rightly discern the truth of what it is that the Bible teaches.


It IS my job as a follower of Christ to search the scriptures Yes indeed! It's our job to seek earnestly to walk in God's truth, both by searching the Scriptures, and obeying them, and by having humble hearts that seek to hear from God, and in other ways.


It IS my job as a follower of Christ to search the scriptures for myself and to come up with my own conclusions. Well, yes and no, IMO. There's an emphasis here upon "for myself" and "come up with my own conclusions" which reflects not the Scriptural perspective, IMO, but a modern emphasis on individualism and even things like "setting my own course" -- or sometimes even a romanticized and rebellious attitude (which is very much a part of modern and American culture): "I'm going to set others straight. They're all deluded, and my own insights are exactly right"

Instead, my job as I understand it is to submit my heart and mind and will and life to God. Certainly, that does involve a responsibility to think things over, and, in that sense, only, to think for myself.

But as I understand it, God's truth has, always, been revealed to God's people -- to Israel, to the Apostles, to the Church. So I see my most careful and earnest effort to rightly understand and believe what God teaches us in the Scriptures as being conducted in the context of historic Christianity. There's no special reason why I should assume that your opinion, or Wesley's opinion, or my own opinion, is always correct. I must, as Paul says "test all things and hold fast to that which is good."

But this testing involves a good deal of self-scepticism, and a great deal of trust in the historic Christian faith. Unless there are very compelling reasons to think otherwise, I don't trust the way I happen to see things as much as I trust the way that Christians through the ages have understood them. Particularly, I place a lot of emphasis upon what the Church taught in its early centuries. Thus, for instance, I don't even pay serious attention to claims that Christ is not God, or that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just different manifestations of a single being. Rather, I hold to the historic confessions of the Christian faith -- for these represent the careful discernment of generations of Christians throughout all the world in understanding what the Scriptures teach.

Blessings,
Scruffy Kid

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