PDA

View Full Version : Need Help : Jewish Friend issues



Jolie76
Apr 26th 2009, 05:10 AM
Hi guys,
Sorry I've been gone awhile been busy. I hope this is the place for this question.
I knew the minute this issue came up to come here asap for the knowledge.

I have a friend well more of a aquinetence who is very Orthodox Jewish in their religion. At first it was no big deal to each his own, now i almost feel angry when I'm around him because to me his vision of who Jesus is and all the things they just don't believe are beginning to irritate me.

He wants to have these debates about why I think jesus is the son of god? He said there has never been proof of him being anything more then a good person who had healing powers. He said God is ONE singular and the Holy spirit, the father the son etc is nonsense.

He said the Torrah is the only true account of our past due to the fact it has never been rewritten or changed where as teh bible has many many times, and cannot be taken for truth.

He lives in this bubble of only reading the first four books and thats it, He doesn't look anywhere else and it's frustrating. I am horrible with explaining anything much less then explain Jesus. Can someone please give me advice along with proof of scriptures that were found before the torrah and why the script of our bible is slightly changed but not enough to take the whole book for being false.

I want to be able to have these things to read to him to explain.

Thanks

BroRog
Apr 26th 2009, 06:28 AM
Nicodemus told Jesus, "we know that you are from God because no one could do the things you do unless God were with him." Since your Jewish friend acknowledges that Jesus had healing powers, ask him from where these healing powers came. And if he says God, then ask him why God would give someone healing powers that lied about himself?

THOM
Apr 26th 2009, 08:55 AM
Hi guys,
Sorry I've been gone awhile been busy. I hope this is the place for this question.
I knew the minute this issue came up to come here asap for the knowledge.

I have a friend well more of a aquinetence who is very Orthodox Jewish in their religion. At first it was no big deal to each his own, now i almost feel angry when I'm around him because to me his vision of who Jesus is and all the things they just don't believe are beginning to irritate me.

He wants to have these debates about why I think jesus is the son of god? He said there has never been proof of him being anything more then a good person who had healing powers. He said God is ONE singular and the Holy spirit, the father the son etc is nonsense.

He said the Torrah is the only true account of our past due to the fact it has never been rewritten or changed where as teh bible has many many times, and cannot be taken for truth.

He lives in this bubble of only reading the first four books and thats it, He doesn't look anywhere else and it's frustrating. I am horrible with explaining anything much less then explain Jesus. Can someone please give me advice along with proof of scriptures that were found before the torrah and why the script of our bible is slightly changed but not enough to take the whole book for being false.

I want to be able to have these things to read to him to explain.

Thanks

Jolie, Ask him the following question:


"If I were to tell you all about GOD,
HIS (GOD'S) WORD,
and HIS (GOD'S) POWER,
How many GODS would I be telling you about?"


Always keep it simple; if they attempt to go complex on you, bring it back to simple.

If he is honest, he will answer that you're telling him about ONLY ONE GOD. If he claims not to understand the question try, "How many gods is THE ONE GOD WHO SPEAKS, and IS ALL-POWERFUL?"

A great number of Orthodox Jews, and even "Christians" as well, don't know and/or understand that:


GOD IS GOD;
GOD'S WORD IS GOD;
and GOD'S POWER IS GOD.


. . .GOD is no more/less GOD than HIS WORD or HIS POWER...
. . .HIS WORD is no more/less GOD than GOD or HIS POWER...
. . .HIS POWER is no more/less GOD than GOD or HIS WORD...


Now look at this again with the following Scriptural additions:



GOD IS GOD;
(GOD THE FATHER)

["For ever, O LORD, THY WORD is settled in HEAVEN. (Psalm 119:89); Ah LORD GOD! behold, THOU hast made the heaven and the earth by THY GREAT POWER and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for THEE (Jeremiah 32:17)."]


GOD'S WORD IS GOD
(GOD THE SON/JESUS CHRIST)


["In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with GOD, and THE WORD was GOD. THE SAME was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. And THE WORD was made FLESH (a Human being), and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN (JESUS CHRIST) of THE FATHER, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3,14)"];



and GOD'S POWER IS GOD
(GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST)

["And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and THE POWER of THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON of GOD. (Luke 1:35)"].


Since GOD IS ETERNAL/EVERLASTING, so must HIS WORD and HIS POWER be ETERNAL/EVERLASTING. And all we're talking about here is ONLY ONE GOD, WHO can and does PERSONALIZE: HIMSELF, HIS WORD, and HIS POWER.

Firstfruits
Apr 26th 2009, 02:52 PM
I hope the following scriptures will help.

Deut 18:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deut 18:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Ps 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Mt 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mt 17:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Heb 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Acts 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Acts 3:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

-SEEKING-
Apr 26th 2009, 04:27 PM
Another thing to consider. If God does not personally call him and reveal Jesus to him, he'll never see it or understand it. So I would say to definitely include this person in your prayers, that God would touch his heart.

sistershalom
Apr 26th 2009, 07:00 PM
There is a good ministry out there that teaches you to minister to Jewish people... called Jews for JESUS... hope they can help you...

Jolie76
Apr 26th 2009, 08:37 PM
See the problem is he doesn't acknowledge the bible as being from GOD, he thinks its written by regular people and it's changed etc.
He thinks the Torrah is the only true word of God etc

djh22
Apr 26th 2009, 09:22 PM
Is he trying to convert you or you he ? not that it matters,you both have very strong faiths that's what really matters, just look through some of the threads on here and you can see that everyone has a different view of each topic but the basic belief remains the same.
I've worked in a multi faith youth centre where the basic requirement was for each faith to understand the other faith and that we all serve the same God no matter how curious the method, It was truly amazing how everyone accepted out differences in order to work to provide better conditions for the rest of the community.
If your friend is truly orthodox you will never get him to understand our faith specially if his family and community are also orthodox,it's so instilled in them from a very early age, the best YOU can do is to agree to differ and leave God to bring him understanding, missionizing really winds them up.

Be good fiends.

Best.
djh22.

Jolie76
Apr 26th 2009, 09:41 PM
Yeah at times It feels like he's trying to get my to leave my faith, cuz he hammers out that The bible isn't accurate etc.. He lives in this bubble etc.

He's actually not a close friend and I honestly don't feel comfortable being that good of friends, he's rules and regulations are uncomfortable to be around, and the constant talk about his RELIGION is a bit to much.

I just wanted to have something prepared the next time he says how great being a JEW is etc

THOM
Apr 26th 2009, 09:43 PM
See the problem is he doesn't acknowledge the bible as being from GOD, he thinks its written by regular people and it's changed etc.
He thinks the Torrah is the only true word of God etc


If he believes that, then you might ask him to prove, from The Torah, how "Judaism (his Religion of Practice)" is from GOD. . .since "Judaism" is never mentioned in The Torah. It is mentioned in The New Testament.

Were it not for Paul having once been of the Religion of Judaism, we might have never seen it anywhere in Scripture.

JESUS CHRIST [MESSIAH], can Legally and Biologically prove HIS Descent from David, Judah (one of the 12 Tribes of Israel), Abraham, and even from Adam (as "The Bible" is considered in certain circles as a Legal and Historical Document). You might ask him to just Legally and Biologically prove his descent from whichever one of the 12 Tribes of Israel he claims to be from. He won't be able to do such?

And finally, you might ask HIM, How GOD could use David, who violated at least five of "The 10 Commandments", to record in The Torah, but This SAME GOD, can't use others, according to your friend, to write "The New Testament"?

sistershalom
Apr 26th 2009, 09:44 PM
Jews for JESUS address that some Jews are cultural Jews so you cant win them with scripture... as well as others do know the Tora and they give scriptures that testify to the fullfillment of the law... JESUS CHRIST... you can also privatly give his name and addy to them and they have Jewish Christians write to the person and try to soul win without letting the person know it was you that gave them his name...

djh22
Apr 26th 2009, 10:06 PM
Yeah at times It feels like he's trying to get my to leave my faith, cuz he hammers out that The bible isn't accurate etc.. He lives in this bubble etc.

He's actually not a close friend and I honestly don't feel comfortable being that good of friends, he's rules and regulations are uncomfortable to be around, and the constant talk about his RELIGION is a bit to much.

I just wanted to have something prepared the next time he says how great being a JEW is etc

Sounds like he's being deliberately confrontational to provoke an argument,in which case I wouldn't even bother,just say that you know what you believe, don't try to quote scripture everyone can argue that in context.
To be brutal and frank he doesn't sound a nice person let alone a good Jew, I've lived and worked with Jews and they haven't tried to change me , well not my faith anyway, Lol.

djh22.

Jolie76
Apr 27th 2009, 12:15 AM
I wish I had come here weeks ago when he started asking about being a christian vs being Jewish the true religion according to him.

If there is a next time I will be prepared.

I feel better now, I knew you guys would know what to say

kenramse
Apr 27th 2009, 12:41 AM
It appears that God has allowed you to meet and debate, share, and witness to this person both for your education as well as for this Jewish believer in the Torah. You should first of all rejoice that God has given you the opportunity to share your faith as well as be an example of Christian love and blessing. You may be the only "letter" from the Bible other than his books that he gets to read. I am sure that you are praying for this person and for his personal salvation. Continue to do that first and foremost. Don't worry about trying to prove anything to him but let your light so shine that he will be utterly attracted to that in you, that he can see your good works and will glorify our Father which is in heaven.

Continue yourself to be rooted and grounded in the Word of God and fellowship with other saints as in communicating with others in this forum. Pray with someone, personally, agreeing in prayer for this person and this person's need for Jesus. God will bless your prayer.

Love this person and do not fear that anything that you say or do will cause this person to be "turned off" by your witness. The Holy Spirit in you will bring conviction and will guide this person to the Living God. You may or may not see the fruition of the work. What you say and do will help to nurture the word that has already gone forth from you and from others. Ultimately this person will know Jesus Christ.

I personally will pray as well for this person and for you. I rejoice even as I write this reply, knowing that God is working by His Spirit to minister by His angels, both heavenly and human to work together with you to bring this person to the knowledge of the truth and to Jesus Christ. Go forth and be a shining example and cool drink of living water for this person.

Jolie76
Apr 27th 2009, 07:21 AM
Well if anything it's helped me show to GOD that I cannot be swayed by anyone else to deny Jesus is the son of GOD. Maybe it was a test etc.
My friend I doubt will ever change, he's too fanatical about his religion.

SIG
Apr 27th 2009, 10:29 PM
You may try C.S. Lewis' trilemma argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma

I suggest you avoid all talk of religious practice and/or history and focus on the Person of Jesus.

On a personal note; as a pre-Christian Jew, I read only the Gospels for 18 years. Who Jesus is and what He said was sufficient to bring me to faith. If this person is even willing to read the Gospels, that's a lot. Again, I suggest you focus on the red letters....

bagofseed
Apr 28th 2009, 07:45 AM
I remember being berated by a yeshiva student on the temple mount after a night of polite conversation when I dared drop the J bomb.

It was like a preconditioned response listing off all the evils of the church against the Jews in His name.

In Jewish fashion I held up my hand like a stop sign and waited for mount Vesuvius to cease its eruption.

At this point I asked a question of the young man.
"Do you see any of that in me?"
His reply was "No."

So I told him to know the truth for himself.

Never saw him again, but it was clearly a God ordained situation.

His name was Judah if you would like to pray for him.

daughter
Apr 28th 2009, 10:35 AM
Hey, the first thing I noticed is that you say when you're around him, you're angry, because he doesn't know Jesus.

Are you that angry with everyone who has a false idea of Jesus? If not, why not? Are you holding this man to a higher standard of righteousness than anyone else? That's a wee bit unfair. Almost everyone in the world has a false idea of Jesus. Almost everyone has an idea that the Bible isn't trustworthy. If he believes the Torah, then he at least believes the first five books of the Bible... pray that God will reveal Himself to him in those books, which are foundational to everything else.

Also, remember that you're not called upon to be a Hebraic scholar... even if you learned Hebrew, studied Torah, etc etc, you'd always be at a disadvantage. This guy is the expert on what Jews think of the first five books. You're not going to blind him with your intellect. You could be the most outstanding genius on the planet, you're not going to be able to impress him.

What does he see about Christians when he looks at you? Does he see someone who has faith in her beliefs? Yes. Does he see that you love Jesus? I hope so. Does he see that you're inwardly seething with anger because he is not Christian? I certainly hope not.

I would say you've "passed the test", in that your faith hasn't been shaken, but you need to work on your patience and love. Let God be angry with the wicked everyday. He knows who the wicked are. Don't you be angry with someone who is deceived. Pray for him... and ask God to grant you the gift of patience and love.

Hope this helps.

Oh... by the way. If I could change, then anybody could. Never write God off by saying He can't change someone. Look at Saul/Paul for example. Remember, it's not up to you to "save" people, and it's not necessary for you to know the final outcome. Just remember, with God all things are possible.

Jolie76
Apr 28th 2009, 10:46 AM
Hey, the first thing I noticed is that you say when you're around him, you're angry, because he doesn't know Jesus.

Are you that angry with everyone who has a false idea of Jesus? If not, why not? Are you holding this man to a higher standard of righteousness than anyone else? That's a wee bit unfair. Almost everyone in the world has a false idea of Jesus. Almost everyone has an idea that the Bible isn't trustworthy. If he believes the Torah, then he at least believes the first five books of the Bible... pray that God will reveal Himself to him in those books, which are foundational to everything else.

Also, remember that you're not called upon to be a Hebraic scholar... even if you learned Hebrew, studied Torah, etc etc, you'd always be at a disadvantage. This guy is the expert on what Jews think of the first five books. You're not going to blind him with your intellect. You could be the most outstanding genius on the planet, you're not going to be able to impress him.

What does he see about Christians when he looks at you? Does he see someone who has faith in her beliefs? Yes. Does he see that you love Jesus? I hope so. Does he see that you're inwardly seething with anger because he is not Christian? I certainly hope not.

I would say you've "passed the test", in that your faith hasn't been shaken, but you need to work on your patience and love. Let God be angry with the wicked everyday. He knows who the wicked are. Don't you be angry with someone who is deceived. Pray for him... and ask God to grant you the gift of patience and love.

Hope this helps.

Oh... by the way. If I could change, then anybody could. Never write God off by saying He can't change someone. Look at Saul/Paul for example. Remember, it's not up to you to "save" people, and it's not necessary for you to know the final outcome. Just remember, with God all things are possible.

Excellent reply. Though in my dealings with him for the most part were okay, some of his religious activity's make me uncomfortable. The anger I felt was not directed at him directly just in the sense that I know he's wrong about Jesus and it's frustrating to see people so out of touch.

It's great he respects Jesus and other religions but I guess I feel like sometimes sticking up for jesus so to speak, though he may not need my help in being GOD and all.

I will just pray he can find the truth before it's to late. If I had some great proof in writing that he would read I would send it.

I haven't heard from him in a while anyway

Toymom
Apr 28th 2009, 02:02 PM
The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament - not just the first 4, although some Jews do use the word Torah to refer to the entire OT - but those may be Reform ones and not Orthodox.

The most important thing that you can do is pray for your friend.
He may indeed be able to be saved.
Paul (Saul) was out hunting down and killing the believers when God revealed Himself to him and converted him.

I was raised in the Jewish religion and for years people tried to convert me. It was a friend who prayed for me for over 3 years who finally was able to bring me to the Lord.

Don't give up - just pray for your friend. Ask the Lord to guide your speaking to him when you do see him again and don't worry if you cannot argue him into faith. It usually does not work that way. Just pray and the Lord will have to be the one to change your friend.

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 02:26 PM
Hi guys,
Sorry I've been gone awhile been busy. I hope this is the place for this question.
I knew the minute this issue came up to come here asap for the knowledge.

I have a friend well more of a aquinetence who is very Orthodox Jewish in their religion. At first it was no big deal to each his own, now i almost feel angry when I'm around him because to me his vision of who Jesus is and all the things they just don't believe are beginning to irritate me.

He wants to have these debates about why I think jesus is the son of god? He said there has never been proof of him being anything more then a good person who had healing powers. He said God is ONE singular and the Holy spirit, the father the son etc is nonsense.

He said the Torrah is the only true account of our past due to the fact it has never been rewritten or changed where as teh bible has many many times, and cannot be taken for truth.

He lives in this bubble of only reading the first four books and thats it, He doesn't look anywhere else and it's frustrating. I am horrible with explaining anything much less then explain Jesus. Can someone please give me advice along with proof of scriptures that were found before the torrah and why the script of our bible is slightly changed but not enough to take the whole book for being false.

I want to be able to have these things to read to him to explain.

Thanks

Sounds to me like he just wants an argument. I would suggest you stop having these conversations and just be friends. Let him see the truth in your life, not your words.

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77