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chad
Apr 26th 2009, 07:28 AM
In Mathew 27:46 + Mark 15:34 it records Jesus saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The NIV study notes in my bible say it is a quote of Psalms 22:1 and it reveals how deeply Jesus felt his abandonment by God as he bore the sins of mankind.

If Jesus is God, in the sense of the Trinity, how can God abandon Jesus; as Jesus is God?


Thanks


Chad


*(Mat 27:46 KJV) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


*(Mark 15:34 KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


* (Psa 22:1 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

David2
Apr 26th 2009, 08:42 AM
Postmodern liberal teachers are using this exact argument to prove that Jesus was not God. The irony of this is, however, that these people think they are free to believe whatever suits them in the Bible, while all the rest is discarded as "not authentic" or "the interpretation of the Bible writer. So, when Jesus said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani" they accept it as the real, authentic words of Christ, but when Jesus in so many places claim to be Eternal, Divine, with the Father, the Creator, then it is dismissed as the idea of the Bible writer.

Impossible to argue with people who do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. To believers, however, we can explain what Jesus said on the cross. He was, of course completely man AND completely God, in a way that we can not understand fully. Therefore, when Jesus said these words, He was spaeking in His humanity and He did in fact, as man, experience on the cross wat it means to be foresaken of God in order that we who believe in Him, would never again be foresaken by God.

THOM
Apr 26th 2009, 09:18 AM
In Mathew 27:46 + Mark 15:34 it records Jesus saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The NIV study notes in my bible say it is a quote of Psalms 22:1 and it reveals how deeply Jesus felt his abandonment by God as he bore the sins of mankind.

If Jesus is God, in the sense of the Trinity, how can God abandon Jesus; as Jesus is God?


Thanks


Chad


*(Mat 27:46 KJV) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


*(Mark 15:34 KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


* (Psa 22:1 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?




When someone tells you or me, that GOD IS Omni-Present (Everywhere and/or Everywhere Present); they haven't told us the whole/entire story; in fact they've left out the most important part of that TRUTH:


GOD IS Omni-Present, where HE CHOOSES TO BE.

As an example of what I mean, is the fact of Hell. "Hell" and/or "the lake of fire and brimstone", is nothing more than the Total and Complete Absence of GOD's Presence.
Internally, GOD never left JESUS CHRIST; because within the 100% of JESUS CHRIST'S Humanity, was still THE 100% of GOD/JESUS' Divinity.

Yet, When JESUS CHRIST cried out, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", it was The 100% Humanity of JESUS CHRIST that was crying out. And GOD is so very serious about HIS Righteous Hatred of Sin, that HE, as it were, forsook JESUS CHRIST WHO had all of our sins upon HIM. . .but not in HIM.

JESUS' Divinity make HIM, THE WORD of GOD, and/or GOD THE SON/THE SON of GOD;
while JESUS' Humanity makes HIM, Man/The Son of Man WHO'S GOD and FATHER, IS our GOD and FATHER.

David Taylor
Apr 26th 2009, 11:03 AM
In Mathew 27:46 + Mark 15:34 it records Jesus saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

If Jesus is God, in the sense of the Trinity, how can God abandon Jesus; as Jesus is God?

*(Mat 27:46 KJV) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

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He wasn't bringing the trinity into question or saying he was forsaken....he was pointing to the entire 22Psalm in vindication of the truth of WHO he was.

chad
Apr 26th 2009, 08:10 PM
He was pointing to the entire 22Psalm in vindication of the truth of WHO he was.

What does that mean, can you explain it a bit more?


Thanks


Chad.


He wasn't bringing the trinity into question or saying he was forsaken....he was pointing to the entire 22Psalm in vindication of the truth of WHO he was.

Julian
Apr 26th 2009, 10:16 PM
The Aramaic scriptures have that verse as "Eli Eli, Lemana Shabbachtani" "My God My God, for this was I spared."

It was a victory cry of his life's accomplishment, not a defeating cry of his Father leaving him at the most important time in his life.

Seems strange that shortly beforehand Jesus just had said that he would not be alone because the Father was with him. And he was doing everything the Father asked him to do. If God forsook him, then he wasn't with him like Christ had just taught he was.

Butch5
Apr 26th 2009, 10:28 PM
In Mathew 27:46 + Mark 15:34 it records Jesus saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The NIV study notes in my bible say it is a quote of Psalms 22:1 and it reveals how deeply Jesus felt his abandonment by God as he bore the sins of mankind.

If Jesus is God, in the sense of the Trinity, how can God abandon Jesus; as Jesus is God?




Chad


*(Mat 27:46 KJV) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


*(Mark 15:34 KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


* (Psa 22:1 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?





The Greek word for God is "theos", it means deity or divinity. Most places in the NT the word theos is used as a name for the Father, however there are a few uses where it is used of Christ, as in John 1. Christ is not the Father, however He is deity or divine. So Jesus is God, means Jesus is divine or deity. He is not the Father.

markedward
Apr 27th 2009, 12:02 AM
He wasn't bringing the trinity into question or saying he was forsaken....he was pointing to the entire 22Psalm in vindication of the truth of WHO he was.Take that Bart Ehrman.

chad
Apr 27th 2009, 12:31 AM
Thanks Butch,

That makes sense. I was wondering how Jesus could be the son and the father at the same time, while on earth. He clearly was not. He was the son of God, as well as God devine.



The Greek word for God is "theos", it means deity or divinity. Most places in the NT the word theos is used as a name for the Father, however there are a few uses where it is used of Christ, as in John 1. Christ is not the Father, however He is deity or divine. So Jesus is God, means Jesus is divine or deity. He is not the Father.

Butch5
Apr 27th 2009, 01:57 AM
Thanks Butch,

That makes sense. I was wondering how Jesus could be the son and the father at the same time, while on earth. He clearly was not. He was the son of God, as well as God devine.

You're quite welcome!

Vhayes
Apr 27th 2009, 02:00 AM
The Aramaic scriptures have that verse as "Eli Eli, Lemana Shabbachtani" "My God My God, for this was I spared."

It was a victory cry of his life's accomplishment, not a defeating cry of his Father leaving him at the most important time in his life.

Seems strange that shortly beforehand Jesus just had said that he would not be alone because the Father was with him. And he was doing everything the Father asked him to do. If God forsook him, then he wasn't with him like Christ had just taught he was.
From what would He have been spared?
V

djh22
Apr 27th 2009, 05:59 PM
Take that Bart Ehrman.

I'd be interested to know what his interpretation is . I'll get around to reading his books one day.

djh22.

markedward
Apr 27th 2009, 06:17 PM
Bart Ehrman is an agnostic Bible critic. He's generally well-respected enough, but he presents a number of concepts in the Bible very inconsistently with his allegedly "critical" mind.

In essence, Bart Ehrman claims that the four gospels present Christ differently and inconsistently, and that the gospels in which Christ says "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" depict him as having felt God abandoned him (whereas the other two gospels present him as adamant and resolved even while on the cross). The problem with Ehrman's interpretation is that he completely ignores the fact that Christ was quoting from Psalm 22 and, as David Taylor pointed out, this was a psalm declaring the vindication and victory of the speaker, not abandonment and failure.

Bart Ehrman's textbooks are certainly helpful in regards to providing historical background and context to the books of the Bible, but the moment he starts talking about God and Christ, his information falls flat because he (almost intentionally) doesn't provide every approach (such as the one David Taylor provided).

djh22
Apr 27th 2009, 07:44 PM
Thanks markedward,
I'd heard of him and his books but haven't got around to reading them.
I must admit to struggling in my youth with the relationship with the crucifixion and Psalm 22 ,I'd just started studying translations and I just couldn't get to grips with some of the mistranslations,the classic one of course was "k'ari" as thorns or pierced, rather than "ari" like a lion .

Best.

djh22.

SIG
Apr 27th 2009, 09:53 PM
An aside: Was Christ quoting Psalm 22, or was the Psalmist looking forward and quoting Christ?

SIG
Apr 27th 2009, 10:00 PM
Regarding what exactly Christ was experiencing as He spoke these words:

In His incarnation He suffered what all humans suffer (short, of course, of sinning). This included separation from God. It occurs to me that this question was posed more at us than at the Father.

How can God separate from Himself? With us, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible.

Exactly what was happening here, and why, is worth a (rich) lifetime of reflection.

chad
Apr 28th 2009, 12:32 AM
Was it possible, just before Jesus died, the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus and Jesus Cried out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani" as he bore the sins of the world for us and then died?


Yet, When JESUS CHRIST cried out, "Eloi, Eloi,
lama sabachthani? Which translates to “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", it was The 100% Humanity of JESUS CHRIST that was crying out. And GOD is so very serious about HIS Righteous Hatred of Sin, that HE, as it were, forsook JESUS CHRIST WHO had all of our sins upon HIM. . .but not in HIM.

Bladers
Apr 28th 2009, 12:42 AM
Was it possible, just before Jesus died, the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus and Jesus Cried out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani" as he bore the sins of the world for us and then died?


Nope, that would not be possible according to the scriptures which says:

Hebrews 9:14 - "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

It was through the Holy Spirit that he offered himself without sin and by the Spirit that he was able to endure the cross.

Also remember, if someone came to you and say "Jesus is the Father / Holy Spirit".

They are worthy of death, for they deny the Father and the Son.

markedward
Apr 28th 2009, 01:56 AM
An aside: Was Christ quoting Psalm 22, or was the Psalmist looking forward and quoting Christ?One might be able to say "both". Since, of course, the psalmist was inspired by God's Spirit, and the psalm in itself is prophetic, there is no reason to say he couldn't have been quoting Christ before Christ actually spoke... but at the same time, it is equally likely that Christ was intentionally quoting the psalm, so the people standing before him (his fellow Jews) would recognize the psalm and what it depicts - vindication and victory - so they would recognize that Christ was, in essence, claiming vindication and victory.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 02:32 AM
I don't understand why everyone tries to explain this verse away.

Christ was forsaken for our sins. Crying out was a fulfillment of prophecy. He was truly forsaken by God.

OldChurchGuy
Apr 28th 2009, 02:43 AM
The Greek word for God is "theos", it means deity or divinity. Most places in the NT the word theos is used as a name for the Father, however there are a few uses where it is used of Christ, as in John 1. Christ is not the Father, however He is deity or divine. So Jesus is God, means Jesus is divine or deity. He is not the Father.

So if a skeptic read the above and concluded that Christianity is poly-theistic since Jesus is not the Father, why would that conclusion be incorrect?

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

markedward
Apr 28th 2009, 05:05 AM
I don't understand why everyone tries to explain this verse away.

Christ was forsaken for our sins. Crying out was a fulfillment of prophecy. He was truly forsaken by God.I agree with you... but I don't think a division of the two sides (victory/forsaken) is necessary... both are a part of it. Why is "explaining away" the verse by taking the theme of Psalm 22 into context a negative thing, yet the explanation (i.e., "explaining away") you provide is okay? Why can't it be both aspects, and not just one or the other?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 02:00 PM
I agree with you... but I don't think a division of the two sides (victory/forsaken) is necessary... both are a part of it. Why is "explaining away" the verse by taking the theme of Psalm 22 into context a negative thing, yet the explanation (i.e., "explaining away") you provide is okay? Why can't it be both aspects, and not just one or the other?


It could be both and I'm not arguing that it isn't. My point is, everyone always tries to explain away this passage, which misses the bigger point of what is going on.

I think part of the problem is we read the Gospel accounts in isolation from one another. To get the best picture of what occurred on the cross, we need to read them together. It seems that when He cried out "Why have you forsaken me?" this was following by "It is finished" and "Into your hands I commit my spirit." (I forget which Gospel it is, but one simply says He cried out in a loud voice and then gave up His spirit, bringing the other three Gospels together).

If we take all three of those together, we see that He is truly forsaken on the cross, but then reconciled as He dies.

So yes, in His forsaken nature there is victory over sin. There is no denying this and we should never belittle this point. However, there is extreme pain in this moment as well. God the Son is forsaken by God the Father. This is a mystery, but what we can tell is that it caused immense spiritual pain for Christ, more so than the physical pain.

markedward
Apr 28th 2009, 04:50 PM
It could be both and I'm not arguing that it isn't. My point is, everyone always tries to explain away this passage, which misses the bigger point of what is going on.Ah, alrighty then.

Julian
Apr 28th 2009, 11:46 PM
From what would He have been spared?
V
The purpose of giving his life on the cross after fulfilling all the God asked him to do and completing all that was required for the redemption of mankind.

Aka - this was my destiny, for this purpose was I spared (reserved/kept), for such a purpose have you kept me!

A cry to victory versus a cry of defeat. He most certainly knew that God would raise him from the dead in 3 days and 3 nights.

THOM
Apr 29th 2009, 12:09 AM
Was it possible, just before Jesus died, the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus and Jesus Cried out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani" as he bore the sins of the world for us and then died?

Chad, this is a very interesting, and profound, thought and question, but before I address your question, I'd like to know why you think it "possible" that "the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus", even as HE was dying?

Julian
Apr 29th 2009, 05:10 AM
GOD IS Omni-Present, where HE CHOOSES TO BE.

As an example of what I mean, is the fact of Hell. "Hell" ...is nothing more than the Total and Complete Absence of GOD's Presence.
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Might want to rethink that one after reading this truth...

chad
Apr 29th 2009, 08:42 AM
Hi Thom,

I’m still thinking things through and figuring things out, but to give you the short answer:

It is sin that separates us from God
When Jesus bore the sins of the world for us, on the cross
It was sin that separated Gods Divinity (Holy Spirit)
From the Humanity (man) within Jesus
Just before Jesus cried out 'Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani -
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me'
The Holy Spirit departed (lifted) from him
{As we can be filled with the spirit of God, and as the Spirit of God can rest upon us - it can also depart from us}
Sin, Seperating the Divinity of God within him (Holy Spirit)
From the Humanity within him (man) {The seperation of god and man through sin}
As he bored the sins of the world for us
Then Jesus said – It is finished, he had fulfilled his purpose here on Earth
And then died on the Cross.

Well at least that is what I was getting to in thought, when I asked: Do you think that the Holy Spirit lifted from Jesus just before he said ‘Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani – My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ :confused


Could you let me know, why you think it is an interesting and profound question.



Thanks


Chad.


Chad, this is a very interesting, and profound, thought and question, but before I address your question, I'd like to know why you think it "possible" that "the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus", even as HE was dying?

THOM
Apr 29th 2009, 10:01 AM
GOD IS Omni-Present, where HE CHOOSES TO BE.
As an example of what I mean, is the fact of Hell. "Hell" and/or "the lake of fire and brimstone", is nothing more than the Total and Complete Absence of GOD's Presence.
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Might want to rethink that one after reading this truth...

Thanks Julian, but I rethought it long before I posted it; and guess what I found at the very beginning of that Psalm? These two words, "O LORD".

I take THE WORD of GOD very, very, very, seriously; and when I make a claim such as the one above, I've considered that the Omni-Presence of GOD has to be HIS CHOICE, and not just a good sounding word that we think we understand. For GOD to not be able to Choose where HE chooses to be makes him LESS GOD. . .think about that.

And back to, "O LORD", The Psalmist, is talking about THE GOD that he (the Psalmist) has a Relationship with; THE SAME GOD that RESIDES within HIM; and would never allow him to "make my bed in hell" in the first place. Scripture tells us that "Hell" was "prepared", rather than "Created". In order for that to be the case, GOD would have to remove HIMSELF, and/or ALL that HE IS, so as to give the devil and his angels, and those sinners, unbelievers, unrighteous, etc., who freely chose, and decided, that they didn't want GOD to be their god, a place void of HIMSELF.

Hi Thom,

I’m still thinking things through and figuring things out, but to give you the short answer:

It is sin that separates us from God
When Jesus bore the sins of the world for us, on the cross
It was sin that separated Gods Divinity (Holy Spirit)
From the Humanity (man) within Jesus
Just before Jesus cried out 'Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani -
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me'
The Holy Spirit departed (lifted) from him
{As we can be filled with the spirit of God, and as the Spirit of God can rest upon us - it can also depart from us}
Sin, Seperating the Divinity of God within him (Holy Spirit)
From the Humanity within him (man) {The seperation of god and man through sin}
As he bored the sins of the world for us
Then Jesus said – It is finished, he had fulfilled his purpose here on Earth
And then died on the Cross.
Well at least that is what I was getting to in thought, when I asked: Do you think that the Holy Spirit lifted from Jesus just before he said ‘Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani – My God, My God why have you forsaken me’ :confused
Could you let me know, why you think it is an interesting and profound question.
Thanks
Chad.

You're one of the few people who recognize the Direction of the Departure of THE HOLY SPIRIT from someone (and that only happened prior to, and up to, the day of Pentecost; Samson is a good example). That to me is both "interesting and profound". The way that you worded your question tells me you've considered much about the deep things of GOD, HIS WORD, and HIS POWER [THE HOLY SPIRIT]. . .and that's a good thing, one not to be taken lightly.
THE GOD within THE Man, JESUS CHRIST, NEVER left HIM; THE GOD surrounding THE Man, JESUS CHRIST, became separated from HIM, because of the sin that was ON HIM (NO sin was IN JESUS). JESUS CHRIST had so much sin ON HIM, as it were, that it actually separated HIM from GOD THE FATHER, leading HIM to cry out, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast THOU forsaken me?". And being THE PERFECT SON/SERVANT, that HE IS/WAS, JESUS, having never before been, even so much as, an iota of any distance from THE FATHER, JESUS' focus (IN ALL of HIS Misery) was NOT on the sin that covered HIM, but the Absence of The Presence of GOD that was now missing from HIM. Now that to me is Super Awesome.

Bladers
Apr 29th 2009, 11:01 AM
Hi Thom,

I’m still thinking things through and figuring things out, but to give you the short answer:

Just before Jesus cried out 'Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani -
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me'
The Holy Spirit departed (lifted) from him
{As we can be filled with the spirit of God, and as the Spirit of God can rest upon us - it can also depart from us}

Thanks
Chad.

I posted this before and i will post it again. It seems like you didnt see it Chad.
That would not be possible according to the scriptures which says:

Hebrews 9:14 - "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

It was through the Holy Spirit that he offered himself without sin on that cross and by the Spirit that he was able to endure the cross.

If the Holy Spirit had left him, He would be defiled by our sins on that cross, but the Holy Spirit didnt leave him.

The Holy Spirit will never fail Jesus, and the bible says: That sacrifice was offered through the Holy Ghost on that cross. Which means that he gave up ghost though the Holy Spirit.

He died through the Holy Spirit, so He could not have been alone.

Emanate
Apr 29th 2009, 01:57 PM
Was it possible, just before Jesus died, the Holy Spirit lifted off from Jesus and Jesus Cried out "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani" as he bore the sins of the world for us and then died?


How can one separate from itself?

Vhayes
Apr 29th 2009, 02:02 PM
II Corinthians 5
21 - He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

chad
Apr 29th 2009, 07:37 PM
Hi Bladers,

Yes, I saw the post, but I have havn't had time to study the other side of the argument. What if the Holy Spirit did not leave Jesus, when he was dying on the cross. As I posted in my previous post, I am still thinking things through - working it all out and lining it up with the word of God. But thanks for the verse, I will use it when looking at the other side of the argument.

If the Holy Spirit had left him, He would be defiled by our sins on that cross, but the Holy Spirit didnt leave him.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit kept Jesus from being defiled? Could you please explain this a bit more?


Thanks


Chad


I posted this before and i will post it again. It seems like you didnt see it Chad.
That would not be possible according to the scriptures which says:

Hebrews 9:14 - "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

It was through the Holy Spirit that he offered himself without sin on that cross and by the Spirit that he was able to endure the cross.

If the Holy Spirit had left him, He would be defiled by our sins on that cross, but the Holy Spirit didnt leave him.

The Holy Spirit will never fail Jesus, and the bible says: That sacrifice was offered through the Holy Ghost on that cross. Which means that he gave up ghost though the Holy Spirit.

He died through the Holy Spirit, so He could not have been alone.

chad
Apr 29th 2009, 07:39 PM
Good point. Sort of like, God loves the sinner but hates the sin and how can God be one yet 3?


How can one separate from itself?

RabbiKnife
Apr 29th 2009, 08:03 PM
Good point. Sort of like, God loves the sinner but hates the sin and how can God be one yet 3?

The human nature, including the human spirit and human body, of Jesus died.
The divine nature of Jesus did not die.

The incarnation of Christ is a mystery that we cannot understand and cannot explain humanly, yet we know it happened.

Why did God forsake Christ on the cross? I don't know.
How did God forsake Christ on the cross? I don't know.
Did God forsake Christ on the cross? Absolutely, because Jesus says so.
What mechanism made that possible? Neither I nor any other human has the slightest clue, but that does not diminish the truth of the matter.

THOM
Apr 30th 2009, 04:39 AM
If Jesus is God, in the sense of the Trinity, how can God abandon Jesus; as Jesus is God?

Here's a possibility, that just occurred to me.

The Scripture states, "And at the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, saying, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?', which is, being interpreted, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast THOU forsaken ME? (Mark 15:34)".

Notice what JESUS didn't call GOD here, "FATHER". In fact, JESUS calls HIM "MY GOD", Twice.

Notice, in addition to being ALL GOD HIMSELF, JESUS was/is also ALL Man. As a Man, JESUS didn't become ". . .the firstborn from the dead...(Colossians 1:18ff)", until after THE RESURRECTION. That being said, when JESUS cried out, could it have been JESUS THE Man, rather than JESUS, THE SON of GOD, crying out?

I believe that GOD forsook JESUS THE Man, rather than THE FATHER, forsaking THE SON. . .and JESUS THE Man recognized this in all of HIS Agony.

The unbeliever, the Sinner, who forsook GOD in this world. . .to the grave, will be forever "forsaken" by GOD, in "Hell/the Lake of fire and brimstone".

chad
Apr 30th 2009, 07:19 AM
Hi RabbiKnife,

Thanks for posting. Excellent points. I think you are correct when you say, The incarnation of Christ is a mystery that we cannot understand and cannot explain humanly, yet we know it happened.



The human nature, including the human spirit and human body, of Jesus died.
The divine nature of Jesus did not die.

Julian
May 1st 2009, 04:08 AM
Thanks Julian, but I rethought it long before I posted it; and guess what I found at the very beginning of that Psalm? These two words, "O LORD".

I take THE WORD of GOD very, very, very, seriously; and when I make a claim such as the one above, I've considered that the Omni-Presence of GOD has to be HIS CHOICE, and not just a good sounding word that we think we understand. For GOD to not be able to Choose where HE chooses to be makes him LESS GOD. . .think about that.

And back to, "O LORD", The Psalmist, is talking about THE GOD that he (the Psalmist) has a Relationship with; THE SAME GOD that RESIDES within HIM; and would never allow him to "make my bed in hell" in the first place. Scripture tells us that "Hell" was "prepared", rather than "Created". In order for that to be the case, GOD would have to remove HIMSELF, and/or ALL that HE IS, so as to give the devil and his angels, and those sinners, unbelievers, unrighteous, etc., who freely chose, and decided, that they didn't want GOD to be their god, a place void of HIMSELF.
This gets complicated and confusing.

I was trying to keep it simple. You said Hell is absence from God, but the verse I quoted says that he would be there if the psalmist should make his bed there. I don't think it needs to get any more complicated than that, does it?

Hell in this case means the grave. No matter where he goes, he will be in God's presence. Don't let theology get in the way of this simple statement from Psalm 139:8 and the whole meaning in that section.

Julian
May 1st 2009, 04:10 AM
Here's a possibility, that just occurred to me.

The Scripture states, "And at the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, saying, 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?', which is, being interpreted, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast THOU forsaken ME? (Mark 15:34)".

Notice what JESUS didn't call GOD here, "FATHER". In fact, JESUS calls HIM "MY GOD", Twice.

Notice, in addition to being ALL GOD HIMSELF, JESUS was/is also ALL Man. As a Man, JESUS didn't become ". . .the firstborn from the dead...(Colossians 1:18ff)", until after THE RESURRECTION. That being said, when JESUS cried out, could it have been JESUS THE Man, rather than JESUS, THE SON of GOD, crying out?

I believe that GOD forsook JESUS THE Man, rather than THE FATHER, forsaking THE SON. . .and JESUS THE Man recognized this in all of HIS Agony.

The unbeliever, the Sinner, who forsook GOD in this world. . .to the grave, will be forever "forsaken" by GOD, in "Hell/the Lake of fire and brimstone".
"My God" in relation to Jesus the man - IS the Father. Ephesians 1 says so.

THOM
May 1st 2009, 02:07 PM
This gets complicated and confusing.

I was trying to keep it simple. You said Hell is absence from God, but the verse I quoted says that he would be there if the psalmist should make his bed there. I don't think it needs to get any more complicated than that, does it?

Hell in this case means the grave. No matter where he goes, he will be in God's presence. Don't let theology get in the way of this simple statement from Psalm 139:8 and the whole meaning in that section.

Hello Julian,
Yes it "gets complicated and confusing". . .especially when you allow what you "think" to get in the way of what Scripture States and/or Teaches. . ."precepts", and "examples". And just "trying to keep it simple", without consideration of THE TOTALITY of ALL SCRIPTURE, can and almost always causes it to get, "complicated and confusing".

Yes, I stated that "Hell is absence from God"; and you attempted to contradict that statement with a verse from Psalm, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there". But you neglected to consider, in your original post, that "Hell" was used as a euphemism in that verse as "the grave", and not the literal Hell. You also neglected to consider that the Psalmist who wrote this referred to GOD as "O LORD". . .not just "LORD", but "O LORD". . .now don't miss that one.

The Psalmist is so certain of GOD'S Awesome Abilities to Secure HIS relationship with the Psalmist, that the Psalmist, believes that "if" it were possible to somehow "make" his "bed in hell", that "O LORD" would still be there with him. Did you notice that word, "if"? So then, does the Psalmist belief, that "if", he could somehow he could "make" his "bed in hell", make it True that GOD would be there with him? No (in light of all other Scripture). Why? Because just like in the case of Job, and Job stating, "Though HE slay me, yet will I trust in HIM...", GOD doesn't save you and turn around and "slay" you. And so it is with the Psalmist, GOD, having remove HIS Presence from ""Hell, doesn't save you from "Hell" and then turn around and let him "make" his "bed in hell".

So then, if you'd like to encourage others to keep it simple, that's a most noble and worthwhile thing to encourage; but you might want to tone down your implications and inferences, and tone up rather, on questions and/or questionings, that are sure to prevent confusion, conflict and/or confrontations.


"My God" in relation to Jesus the man - IS the Father. Ephesians 1 says so.

Can you point that out to me please?

Blessings to you and your entire house,
Thom,

Julian
May 2nd 2009, 02:20 AM
Hello Julian,
Yes it "gets complicated and confusing". . .especially when you allow what you "think" to get in the way of what Scripture States

Yes, I stated that "Hell is absence from God"; and you attempted to contradict that statement with a verse from Psalm, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there". But you neglected to consider, in your original post, that "Hell" was used as a euphemism in that verse as "the grave", and not the literal Hell. You also neglected to consider that the Psalmist who wrote this referred to GOD as "O LORD". . .not just "LORD", but "O LORD". . .now don't miss that one.

The Psalmist is so certain of GOD'S Awesome Abilities to Secure HIS relationship with the Psalmist, that the Psalmist, believes that "if" it were possible to somehow "make" his "bed in hell", that "O LORD" would still be there with him. Did you notice that word, "if"? So then, does the Psalmist belief, that "if", he could somehow he could "make" his "bed in hell", make it True that GOD would be there with him? No (in light of all other Scripture). Why? Because just like in the case of Job, and Job stating, "Though HE slay me, yet will I trust in HIM...", GOD doesn't save you and turn around and "slay" you. And so it is with the Psalmist, GOD, having remove HIS Presence from ""Hell, doesn't save you from "Hell" and then turn around and let him "make" his "bed in hell".

So then, if you'd like to encourage others to keep it simple, that's a most noble and worthwhile thing to encourage; but you might want to tone down your implications and inferences, and tone up rather, on questions and/or questionings, that are sure to prevent confusion, conflict and/or confrontations.



Can you point that out to me please?

Blessings to you and your entire house,
Thom,I can't tell what the tone of that is.

Please show me what part of what I said was not what the scripture says?

I couldn't find a scripture that says "Hell is the absense of God" but I did find the one I showed you about him being there with the psalmist. I think that what he says in that psalm is accurate. I don't get that idea after reading what you said. I'm not trying to make this a contention - but scripture speaks of God being there if he should make his bed in hell. And you said that hell is the absence of God. Which should I choose?

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

THOM
May 2nd 2009, 03:11 AM
I can't tell what the tone of that is.

Please show me what part of what I said was not what the scripture says?

I asked you to show me Specifically what you're claiming in the following:


"My God" in relation to Jesus the man - IS the Father. Ephesians 1 says so.

I don't find this at all in "Ephesians 1".

scottinnj
May 2nd 2009, 03:54 AM
I don't understand why everyone tries to explain this verse away.

Christ was forsaken for our sins. Crying out was a fulfillment of prophecy. He was truly forsaken by God.


QFT. Only with being forsaken by God, could Jesus complete His punishment for us, and then say "It is Finished" which ended the battle against sin and death.

Julian
May 2nd 2009, 05:43 AM
I believe that GOD forsook JESUS THE Man, rather than THE FATHER, forsaking THE SON
I don't find this at all in "Ephesians 1".
The God of Jesus is the Father - as I showed you from the verse I posted in that chapter.

The God of Jesus is the Father, no need to delineate between the two.

THOM
May 2nd 2009, 08:09 AM
The God of Jesus is the Father - as I showed you from the verse I posted in that chapter.

The God of Jesus is the Father, no need to delineate between the two.

JESUS CHRIST WAS/IS both GOD and Man; HE IS both "THE SON of GOD" and "THE SON of Man". As "THE SON of GOD", GOD IS HIS FATHER, and as "THE SON of Man", GOD IS HIS GOD.

What is being considered, is that it is a possibility, given the wording of the Text, that it was JESUS CHRIST, "THE SON of Man" that was crying out, rather than JESUS CHRIST, "THE SON of GOD". If you've a different take and/or possibility on that then by all means express it, but you don't get to determine when, where, whether I find it needful "to delineate between the two" or not. Again, if you don't understand what's being discussed, then try asking questions about that which you may not understand.

Equipped_4_Love
May 2nd 2009, 08:18 AM
Bart Ehrman is an agnostic Bible critic. He's generally well-respected enough, but he presents a number of concepts in the Bible very inconsistently with his allegedly "critical" mind.

In essence, Bart Ehrman claims that the four gospels present Christ differently and inconsistently, and that the gospels in which Christ says "Eli Eli lama sabachthani" depict him as having felt God abandoned him (whereas the other two gospels present him as adamant and resolved even while on the cross). The problem with Ehrman's interpretation is that he completely ignores the fact that Christ was quoting from Psalm 22 and, as David Taylor pointed out, this was a psalm declaring the vindication and victory of the speaker, not abandonment and failure.

Bart Ehrman's textbooks are certainly helpful in regards to providing historical background and context to the books of the Bible, but the moment he starts talking about God and Christ, his information falls flat because he (almost intentionally) doesn't provide every approach (such as the one David Taylor provided).

So, you're saying that the only reason that Jesus said these words was in order to fulfill the psalm, but that these words didn't actually apply to His condition at all?

That they were just a rote recessitation of the Messianic psalm?

Vhayes
May 2nd 2009, 06:25 PM
The purpose of giving his life on the cross after fulfilling all the God asked him to do and completing all that was required for the redemption of mankind.

Aka - this was my destiny, for this purpose was I spared (reserved/kept), for such a purpose have you kept me!

A cry to victory versus a cry of defeat. He most certainly knew that God would raise him from the dead in 3 days and 3 nights.
Hi Julian - sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to you.

i still do not understand what you are saying here. Below is what you posted originally:

(http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2055950#post2055950)http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2055950#post2055950) The Aramaic scriptures have that verse as "Eli Eli, Lemana Shabbachtani" "My God My God, for this was I spared."
I still don't see what he was spared from - in order to fulfill His earthly mission. His life? What am I "missing"?

Thanks -
V

Julian
May 2nd 2009, 06:33 PM
Hi Julian - sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to you.

i still do not understand what you are saying here. Below is what you posted originally:

I still don't see what he was spared [U]from - in order to fulfill His earthly mission. His life? What am I "missing"?

Thanks -
VYou aren't reading what I posted. I didn't say he was spared 'from' as you put it. Read it again without adding 'from' and you'll see. He had a purpose for why he was spared.

Vhayes
May 2nd 2009, 06:41 PM
You aren't reading what I posted. I didn't say he was spared 'from' as you put it. Read it again without adding 'from' and you'll see. He had a purpose for why he was spared.
It still makes no sense to me, Julian. Spared MEANS to be kept from something.

If I spare my child from a scolding i have kept him from getting a scolding. If a criminals life is spared, it means he is kept from execution. If I have a spare pair of shoes, it means I keep them from current use and wear for use at a later date.

Intrinsically, spared means kept FROM something.

So I still don't understand...
V

Julian
May 2nd 2009, 08:18 PM
It still makes no sense to me, Julian. Spared MEANS to be kept from something.

If I spare my child from a scolding i have kept him from getting a scolding. If a criminals life is spared, it means he is kept from execution. If I have a spare pair of shoes, it means I keep them from current use and wear for use at a later date.

Intrinsically, spared means kept FROM something.

So I still don't understand...
V
You don't have to keep adding in 'from'. It can mean preserved, reserved, kept. Think of it that way.

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