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*Hope*
Apr 27th 2009, 12:03 AM
As some of you may know, I have a close friend who is involved in a cult. They adamantly believe they are following Jesus, go to church regularly and obey the teachings of their leader. However, they reject the doctrine of the Trinity. This, of course, bothers me greatly.

So...I'm going to try to open communication with her, maybe even write a letter or an essay trying to explain the importance of believing in the Trinity. I started this topic to get advice, biblical insight and any guidance people could give me about how to explain this to someone in pretty simple terms. But I want a really solid argument. I'm not looking for analogies. I'm wanting solid scriptural support for the doctrine as well as why rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is heretical and dangerous.

Thanks in advance!

*Hope*
Apr 27th 2009, 12:14 AM
Here are some of the common objections I'm aware of:

1. The Trinity wasn't taught until the 4th Century
2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible
3. The Church Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity
4. The Trinity is Three Gods
5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?
6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being God
7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?
8. The Bible says God is one

If anyone wants to tackle one or more of these, feel free :)

THOM
Apr 27th 2009, 12:59 AM
Here are some of the common objections I'm aware of:

1. The Trinity wasn't taught until the 4th Century
2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible
3. The Church Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity
4. The Trinity is Three Gods
5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?
6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being God
7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?
8. The Bible says God is one

If anyone wants to tackle one or more of these, feel free :)

Hope, you're Terrific!!! Thanks for your offer!

#1Putting people to sleep before trying to operate on them was done before 16th Century. . .and many people died, from shock, as a result; but GOD put Adam to sleep before operating on him. Because there is no known documentation to counter to what #1 claims, doesn't mean that it wasn't taught.

#2Neither is the word, "gravity", "evolution", "atheist", "agnostic", etc.

#3&8Let's see, according to Scripture if that be so: "For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, THE FATHER, THE WORD [JESUS CHRIST], and THE HOLY GHOST: and these THREE are one [GOD] (1John 5:7)".
This was the same "John", that was the Brother of "James"; the same "John" that penned the book of John, and was one of JESUS' Inner Circle Disciples; and one of the Original Apostles; and the Writer of the Book of Revelation. I'd say he qualifies as one of "The Church Fathers"; although your objectors still might not. . .but that's their problem Hope.


#4 GOD IS GOD;
GOD'S WORD IS GOD;
and GOD'S POWER IS GOD.


#4. . .GOD is no more/less GOD than HIS WORD or HIS POWER...
. . .HIS WORD is no more/less GOD than GOD or HIS POWER...
. . .HIS POWER is no more/less GOD than GOD or HIS WORD...


Now look at this again with the following Scriptural additions:



#4GOD IS GOD;
(GOD THE FATHER)

["For ever, O LORD, THY WORD is settled in HEAVEN. (Psalm 119:89); Ah LORD GOD! behold, THOU hast made the heaven and the earth by THY GREAT POWER and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for THEE (Jeremiah 32:17)."]


#4&5 GOD'S WORD IS GOD
(GOD THE SON/JESUS CHRIST)


["In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with GOD, and THE WORD was GOD. THE SAME was in the beginning with GOD. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. And THE WORD was made FLESH (a Human being), and dwelt among us, and we beheld HIS glory, the glory as of THE ONLY BEGOTTEN (JESUS CHRIST) of THE FATHER, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3,14)"];



#4&6and GOD'S POWER IS GOD
(GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT/GHOST)

["And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and THE POWER of THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON of GOD. (Luke 1:35)"].


#4Since GOD IS ETERNAL/EVERLASTING, so must HIS WORD and HIS POWER be ETERNAL/EVERLASTING. And all we're talking about here is ONLY ONE GOD, WHO can and does PERSONALIZE: HIMSELF, HIS WORD, and HIS POWER.

#6"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to THE HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto GOD. (Acts 5:3-4)"

#7"JESUS said unto them, If GOD were your FATHER, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from GOD; neither came I of myself, but HE sent me. (John 8:42)"

BroRog
Apr 27th 2009, 01:24 AM
Does your friend believe that Jesus is God? Just Curious.

Butch5
Apr 27th 2009, 01:48 AM
As some of you may know, I have a close friend who is involved in a cult. They adamantly believe they are following Jesus, go to church regularly and obey the teachings of their leader. However, they reject the doctrine of the Trinity. This, of course, bothers me greatly.

So...I'm going to try to open communication with her, maybe even write a letter or an essay trying to explain the importance of believing in the Trinity. I started this topic to get advice, biblical insight and any guidance people could give me about how to explain this to someone in pretty simple terms. But I want a really solid argument. I'm not looking for analogies. I'm wanting solid scriptural support for the doctrine as well as why rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is heretical and dangerous.

Thanks in advance!

Hi Hope,

Here is a starting place,

I think the confusion comes in with the understanding of the word God. Jesus and the Father are not the same in person hood. They are distinct from each other, as is the Holy Spirit. I think it is a misunderstanding of John 1:1 that is confusing. Many people read John 1:1 like this,


John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the word ( Jesus) and the word was with God (the Father) and the Word (Jesus) was God (the Father). This is not what the verse says, but I believe it is what causes so much confusion regarding the doctrine of the trinity. If you look in the NT you will find that most of the references to God are references to the Father, there are a few that refer to Jesus. However if you look at the Greek word in John 1:1 you can clear up the confusion rather easily. The Greek word for God is "theos" which means deity. Let's look at it again,

John 1:1 ( KJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word (Jesus) was with God (Deity- The Father) and the Word(Jesus) was (Deity). Now we understand that the verse is saying that in the beginning Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was deity or divine. So we have no mystical magical doctrine, it is easily understandable. When we understand that when the Scriptures say that Jesus is God, God means deity or divine, there is no confusion. There are three aspects of the Trinity relative to Scripture, they are, nature, personal attributes, and order. Look at nature, Jesus is of the same nature as the Father, just as a child is of the same nature as his parent. The child is no more or no less human than the parent, they are equally human. So it is with Jesus and the Father, they are equally divine, Jesus being the Son of the Father is no more or less divine than the Father. So when the Scriptures speak of Jesus being equal with God, they are speaking of this aspect of nature, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one," this is speaking of nature. Now let's look at personal attributes, the Father alone is unbegotten, Jesus is the only begotten God (deity), this doesn't mean He is less divine than the Father, It is just a personal attribute of Jesus. Another personal attribute would be omniscience, Jesus said of the day of His return "no one knows the day or the hour but the Father," So we see that there is at least one thing that the Father knows that Jesus doesn't. Does this mean that Jesus is less divine than the Father? Not at all. Now let's look at order, Jesus is the second person of the trinity, The Father is the source of the trinity, the Son proceeds from the Father. This is how Jesus can say " the Father is greater than I" or " all authority has been given to me" because the Father is above all. So when we read the Scriptures we need to discern what is being spoken of, nature, personal attributes, or order. Many people read Jesus statement "the Father is greater than I" and think that somehow Jesus is a lesser God (deity) but this is speaking of order not nature, regarding nature the are equal. I know this is somewhat simplistic but I hope it helps clear up some of the confusion.

markedward
Apr 27th 2009, 05:11 AM
1. The Trinity wasn't taught until the 4th CenturyFalse. The "trinity" was taught before the 4th century... it simply wasn't universally agreed upon.


2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the BibleNeither is the word "bible". Does that stop us from using a fabricated word ("bible") to describe what the volume of canon Scripture is? Obviously not.


3. The Church Fathers didn't believe in the TrinityThis depends on which "church father" you ask.


4. The Trinity is Three GodsFalse. This is an intentional mis-representation of the doctrine of the "trinity".


5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?This, again, ignores the actual doctrine of the "trinity". The person who makes this objection fails to recognize (whether intentionally or not) that Jesus is the Son, while "God" (in the distinction of the question) is the Father. The Son prayed to the Father, but both are the One God.


6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being GodFalse. This, however, requires a many of Scripture to show, which the objectors would, of course, object to.


7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?Jesus was made "humble" by incarnating as a man. He showed perfect obedience to God, and hence, God was a higher authority to Christ when he was a man. It is also a relationship issue, in that the Son is obedient to the Father.


8. The Bible says God is oneSo does the doctrine of the "trinity".

crossnote
Apr 27th 2009, 05:30 AM
Here are some of the common objections I'm aware of:

1. The Trinity wasn't taught until the 4th Century
2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible
3. The Church Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity
4. The Trinity is Three Gods
5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?
6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being God
7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?
8. The Bible says God is one

If anyone wants to tackle one or more of these, feel free :)

Some of these can be answered by remembering that although Jesus was fully God/ fully man yet while on earth He laid aside His Divine priveleges and thus appeared to many as mere man.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: "
(Php 2:6-7)

BTW If Jesus 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' AND it was not true that He was equal to God..THEN He would have been guilty of a sinful thought and therefore could not be our sinless Savior or God!!!

chad
Apr 27th 2009, 08:27 AM
[quote=*Hope*;2056006]Here are some of the common objections I'm aware of:

2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible

True. But here is a definition from the Holman Bible Dictionary:
TRINITY. Theological term used to define God as an undivided unity expressed in the threefold nature of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As a distinctive Christian doctrine, the Trinity is considered as a divine mystery beyond human comprehension to be reflected upon only through scriptual revelation.

4. The Trinity is Three Gods


False. From the Holman Bible Dictionary: A proper biblical view of the Trinity balances the concepts of unity and distinctiveness. Two errors that appear in the history of the consideration of the doctrine are tritheism and unitarianism.

In tritheism, error is made in emphasizing the distinctiveness of the Godhead to the point that the Trinity is seen as three separate Gods, or a Christian polytheism.

On the other hand, unitarianism excludes the concept of distinctiveness while focusing solely on the aspect of God the Father. In this way, Christ and the Holy Spirit are placed in lower categories and made less than divine. Both errors compromise the effectiveness and contribution of the activity of God in redemptive history.

5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?


Jesus himself is not the Father. He taught us to pray to the Father in the Lords Prayer (Mt 6:8-15). Jesus prayed to God, the Father (Mt 26:39; Mt 26:42)

6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being God

False. There is evidence in Jesus Baptism as we see in Mathew and Lukes account of Jesus Baptism. The Holy Spirit / Gods Holy Spirit descended and remained on Jesus. God testifies that this is Jesus his son, whom he is well pleased. (Mt 3:16 kjv, Luke 3:21-22 kjv + niv)

(Mat 3:16 KJV) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

(Mat 3:16 NIV) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. (Mat 3:17 NIV) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

(Luke 3:21 KJV) Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, (Luke 3:22 KJV) And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

(Luke 3:21 NIV) When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened (Luke 3:22 NIV) and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."


7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?


God is the Father, but in terms of Authority Jesus authority is equal. He is seated at the right hand of God. (Mk 16:9, Acts 2:33, Acts 7:55-56, Rom 8:34, Col 3:1, Heb 10:12).

Jesus said while on earth, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to him, therefore go make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit. (Mt 28:18-19)

8. The Bible says God is one


True. Even the demons believe this and tremble. (James 2:9).

Sojourner
Apr 27th 2009, 08:54 AM
I have a close friend who is involved in a cult. They adamantly believe they are following Jesus.Okay, let me be a voice of reason here.

If someone is dying and in need of an operation and the patient is prepped for surgery before they are put asleep, the doctor doesn't tell the patient, Let me tell you about the Tungsten steel blade of this scapel, and oh yes, the precision high-tech edge sharpened with laser. No, with skill he immediately applies the scapel to get inside the abdominal cavity and removes or fixes the problem.

Your friend, if she is in a cult is probally going to hell unless the Holy Spirit does his work in salvation. The Apostle Paul said, I have determined to know nothing (know no truth, no doctrine, no teachings) but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

I would advise you to not discuss doctrine that doesn't directly address salvation. "For there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved." It is Jesus and him crucified. After they are saved then teach her the serveral doctines that doesn't pertain to salvation. Am I right board? Correct me if I'm not.

God bless you.

9Marksfan
Apr 27th 2009, 09:50 AM
Okay, let me be a voice of reason here.

If someone is dying and in need of an operation and the patient is prepped for surgery before they are put asleep, the doctor doesn't tell the patient, Let me tell you about the Tungsten steel blade of this scapel, and oh yes, the precision high-tech edge sharpened with laser. No, with skill he immediately applies the scapel to get inside the abdominal cavity and removes or fixes the problem.

Your friend, if she is in a cult is probally going to hell unless the Holy Spirit does his work in salvation. The Apostle Paul said, I have determined to know nothing (know no truth, no doctrine, no teachings) but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

I would advise you to not discuss doctrine that doesn't directly address salvation. "For there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved." It is Jesus and him crucified. After they are saved then teach her the serveral doctines that doesn't pertain to salvation. Am I right board? Correct me if I'm not.

God bless you.

I guess it depends whether she believes that Jesus is the Son of God - that's a salvation issue, surely?

Teke
Apr 27th 2009, 01:27 PM
Here are some of the common objections I'm aware of:

1. The Trinity wasn't taught until the 4th Century
2. The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible
3. The Church Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity

The Trinity was taught, but it wasn't challenged until heresies arose about the matter. Then a formal statement was issued by the church declaring what they believe, which included the Trinity, the Tri une nature of God expressed to mankind.

Godhead=Trinity, but I guess it depends on the language translation or translator.

The church fathers did believe in the Trinity, but in the early times they reasoned among themselves (in what is known as church councils) with the Holy Spirit to formally declare it.


4. The Trinity is Three Gods
5. If Jesus was God, how did He pray to God?
6. There's no evidence of the Holy Spirit even being God
7. How was God greater than Jesus if Jesus is God?
8. The Bible says God is one

If anyone wants to tackle one or more of these, feel free :)

These last questions are likely scriptural disputes which can be resolved by faith. Question is, what is the persons' faith in or of.

Scruffy Kid
Apr 27th 2009, 02:25 PM
What matters is the substance of the belief, not (as such) the words used.

Thus, in discussion with people like this, I generally avoid using the word "Trinity", and other related words, and try to state the elements of the doctrine in plain English. As I understand it, what Jesus taught, the Apostles believed and taught, and the Church since has confessed, is this:

A) There is but one God, maker of heaven and earth.

B) Jesus is Himself God, and maker of heaven and earth.

C) Jesus speaks with, and prays to, God the Father,
therefore Jesus is not the Father.

D) The Holy Spirit, like Christ Jesus and the Father, is God.

We could restate these propositions, with some minor additions, in a logical order, as follows:
1) There is but one God, who made all things.
2) The Father is God;
....Jesus, the Son and Eternal Word, is God;
....the Holy Spirit is God.
3) The Father is not the Son;
....the Son is not the Holy Spirit;
....the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

It is unlikely that someone who objects will deny that there is one God.
Thus, the crucial point at which challenge comes up are this: Jesus is truly God. (For some people, a second point may come up, a misunderstanding, or heresy, called "modalism" namely, some will say that Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are just different appearances, or forms, or manifestations, or roles of the one God.) People who want to argue against the true and apostolic faith as taught in the Bible (that is, against the doctrine of the Trinity) are likely to seize on irrelevant points -- for instance, about the Holy Spirit, or "How can God be both 3 and 1?" to avoid the crucial point.

The crucial point, to repeat, is that Christ Jesus is truly God, and truly man, and distinct from God the Father. (And, of course, that there is only one God.)

What are some key verses that help establish that Christ is God?
There are many. John 1 and Phil. 2 are often quoted. An important passage, I think, which is hard to get around, and less often quoted in this connection, is this prayer from Col. 1:12-18:
... the Father, ... has made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light, Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son, in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him, and he is before all things, and by him all things consist, and he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Here it is clearly stated of God's Son that "all things were created by him and for him" and that "he is before all things", and that "by him all things hold together." Yet there is no doubt that the one being spoken of is Christ, not God the Father, for "we have redemption through his blood" and he is "the head of the body" (the body of believers, i.e. the church), and he is "the firstborn from the dead" and that "we have redemption through his blood".

This important (and beautiful) passage clearly distinguishes the Father from the Son, yet says that the Son is eternal, and created all things, while emphasizing His death, resurrection, and that through these we are redeemed.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 27th 2009, 02:40 PM
Am I right board?

:yes:



...............

apothanein kerdos
Apr 27th 2009, 03:29 PM
Okay, let me be a voice of reason here.

If someone is dying and in need of an operation and the patient is prepped for surgery before they are put asleep, the doctor doesn't tell the patient, Let me tell you about the Tungsten steel blade of this scapel, and oh yes, the precision high-tech edge sharpened with laser. No, with skill he immediately applies the scapel to get inside the abdominal cavity and removes or fixes the problem.

Your friend, if she is in a cult is probally going to hell unless the Holy Spirit does his work in salvation. The Apostle Paul said, I have determined to know nothing (know no truth, no doctrine, no teachings) but Jesus Christ and him crucified.

I would advise you to not discuss doctrine that doesn't directly address salvation. "For there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved." It is Jesus and him crucified. After they are saved then teach her the serveral doctines that doesn't pertain to salvation. Am I right board? Correct me if I'm not.

God bless you.


I don't have time to make a long, drawn-out post, but...


No, you're wrong. The contentious issue is that once we gain knowledge of Christ, if we deny the Trinity, then the Spirit is not in us.

Secondly, and more importantly, a denial of the Trinity almost always comes with a denial of Christ's deity. In the case of the friend, this is the point.

Third - where in the world did Paul say we're not supposed to have knowledge of the truth or doctrine?! That's a massive misunderstanding on that passage. That's reading into the text what isn't there.

Fourth, a denial of the Trinity - even if one accepts the deity of Christ - leads to too many inconsistencies and false statements about God.

-SEEKING-
Apr 27th 2009, 03:41 PM
As some of you may know, I have a close friend who is involved in a cult. They adamantly believe they are following Jesus, go to church regularly and obey the teachings of their leader. However, they reject the doctrine of the Trinity. This, of course, bothers me greatly.

So...I'm going to try to open communication with her, maybe even write a letter or an essay trying to explain the importance of believing in the Trinity. I started this topic to get advice, biblical insight and any guidance people could give me about how to explain this to someone in pretty simple terms. But I want a really solid argument. I'm not looking for analogies. I'm wanting solid scriptural support for the doctrine as well as why rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is heretical and dangerous.

Thanks in advance!

Sounds like Gwen Shamblin's Remnant Fellowship.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 27th 2009, 03:50 PM
I don't have time to make a long, drawn-out post, but...


No, you're wrong. The contentious issue is that once we gain knowledge of Christ, if we deny the Trinity, then the Spirit is not in us.So it isn't until we accept with understanding, the Trinity that we are saved?



Fourth, a denial of the Trinity - even if one accepts the deity of Christ - leads to too many inconsistencies and false statements about God.Okay, I'm confused. In another post it was suggested that first you get saved by believing in Jesus Christ and that then the Holy Spirit will work in you and guide you to an understanding of The Trinity. If one can't really understand The Trinity without the help of The Holy Spirit, then how can someone accept and have faith in something(Trinity) they don't yet understand? Wouldn't faith in something you misunderstand have to be deemed bogus?

*Hope*
Apr 27th 2009, 05:36 PM
I don't have time to reply right now but I appreciate the responses. As a reminder, one-liners really aren't going to help me out. But thorough biblical (and historical) support is greatly appreciated!

*Hope*
Apr 27th 2009, 05:38 PM
Oh, and for those wondering, yes this is The Remnant Fellowship...but I don't want the topic to get side-tracked about their cult please.

-SEEKING-
Apr 27th 2009, 05:40 PM
Oh, and for those wondering, yes this is The Remnant Fellowship...but I don't want the topic to get side-tracked about their cult please.

I surely don't want to go off topic but I feel that you should be informed.
Tell your friend to run. My wife was involved with them for a few years before we realized they were a cult. They started out as a diet program. They've even had members who killed their own children while trying to "discipline" them according to Gwen's teachings. There are articles all over the place you can find.

Here's a basic one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Shamblin

Here's another:

http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artGeneral.article_4&badUrl=http://www.wfial.org:80/artGeneral/article_4

*Hope*
Apr 27th 2009, 05:58 PM
I surely don't want to go off topic but I feel that you should be informed.
Tell your friend to run. My wife was involved with them for a few years before we realized they were a cult. They started out as a diet program. They've even had members who killed their own children while trying to "discipline" them according to Gwen's teachings. There are articles all over the place you can find.

Here's a basic one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Shamblin

Here's another:

http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artGeneral.article_4&badUrl=http://www.wfial.org:80/artGeneral/article_4

There is a topic I made a while back in the World Religions section here (i think) about Remnant Fellowship. Would you mind posting a little more information in there about your experience and how you got your wife out of it? They are VERY sensitive to criticism so I have to be so careful or I'm afraid she'll shut me out. But I would like to hear your story in the other topic, if you don't mind...

apothanein kerdos
Apr 27th 2009, 06:02 PM
So it isn't until we accept with understanding, the Trinity that we are saved?

Okay, I'm confused. In another post it was suggested that first you get saved by believing in Jesus Christ and that then the Holy Spirit will work in you and guide you to an understanding of The Trinity. If one can't really understand The Trinity without the help of The Holy Spirit, then how can someone accept and have faith in something(Trinity) they don't yet understand? Wouldn't faith in something you misunderstand have to be deemed bogus?


We're not saved by a belief in the Trinity. We do need, however, a belief in the deity and humanness of Christ in order to be saved.

What I was stating is that if we truly have the Spirit working in us, when we come up to the Trinity we will accept the belief. If we deny the Trinity, we must wonder if the Spirit is in us.

Does that make more sense?

-SEEKING-
Apr 27th 2009, 06:11 PM
There is a topic I made a while back in the World Religions section here (i think) about Remnant Fellowship. Would you mind posting a little more information in there about your experience and how you got your wife out of it? They are VERY sensitive to criticism so I have to be so careful or I'm afraid she'll shut me out. But I would like to hear your story in the other topic, if you don't mind...

Sure. I have to step out of the office for a while but I'll look it up when I get a chance.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 27th 2009, 06:51 PM
We're not saved by a belief in the Trinity. We do need, however, a belief in the deity and humanness of Christ in order to be saved.

What I was stating is that if we truly have the Spirit working in us, when we come up to the Trinity we will accept the belief. If we deny the Trinity, we must wonder if the Spirit is in us.

Does that make more sense?Yes and no, but I don't want to derail *Hope*'s thread...I may PM you on this though.

THOM
Apr 27th 2009, 07:15 PM
So it isn't until we accept with understanding, the Trinity that we are saved?
Okay, I'm confused. In another post it was suggested that first you get saved by believing in Jesus Christ and that then the Holy Spirit will work in you and guide you to an understanding of The Trinity. If one can't really understand The Trinity without the help of The Holy Spirit, then how can someone accept and have faith in something(Trinity) they don't yet understand? Wouldn't faith in something you misunderstand have to be deemed bogus?

Thank you so much Gulah Papyrus for your most insightful and analytical comments, form as two very pertinent questions.

JESUS stated it very simply. . .and some of us still seem to miss it, "Except a man be born again, He cannot see/enter THE KINGDOM of GOD."

Does one come to JESUS CHRIST as an "man", or as a baby, having been "born again"? Does one come to JESUS CHRIST as an intellectually mature understanding all physical things human being, or as a accepting immature understanding nothing Spiritual Baby?

What did JESUS mean when HE stated, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive THE KINGDOM of GOD as a little child, he shall not enter therein. (Mark 10:15; Luke 18:17)".

What "little child" would you NOT save from death and/or destruction (if it was in your power to do so), because he didn't understand/comprehend your makeup?

Here's the bottom line:

JESUS CHRIST Saves ONLY Sinners;
HE Saves them because...
. . .they Accept what HE Offers...
. . .because they Believe...
. . .HE IS WHO HE SAY HE IS, and that HE IS THE ONLY ONE who can meet their NEED;
When HE SAVES them, they become New-born Spiritual Babies; Here's HIS PERSONAL INVITATION:
"Come unto ME, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I WILL give you rest. Take MY yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I AM meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For MY yoke is easy, and MY burden is light. (Matthew 11:28-30)";

Believing "in" JESUS CHRIST is like believing that HE can push a wheel barrel while walking a tightrope across the stretch of Niagara Falls;
Believing "ON" JESUS CHRIST is getting in the wheel barrel while HE does it.

THOM
Apr 27th 2009, 07:22 PM
We do need, however, a belief in the deity and humanness of Christ in order to be saved.

Please explain how this is so? And while you're explaining, please include in your explanation, a baby's "belief in the deity and humanness of Christ in order to be saved". . .especially the one's who were murdered through "abortion", and/or "partial birth abortion"?

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 27th 2009, 08:48 PM
I guess it depends whether she believes that Jesus is the Son of God - that's a salvation issue, surely?


I would agree.. belief and confession from that person will tell you who or what type of spirit is leading that person.. those who profess another Jesus.. it all starts back with a Salvation Issue... God has to reveal to that person who Jesus really is.. and when that Happens.. then the foundation is LAID...


A reminder.. the devils 'believe' and 'know' that Jesus is the Son of God.. and Paul tells us that satan himself comes masquerading as the real thing.. walking and talking like the real thing...

however John gives us the litmust test in 1 John....

those who 'confess' Jesus is come in the flesh... Jesus is God manifest in the flesh..

a person confessing that.. that person is led of the Holy Ghost...

thats why we're directed to 'try' the spirits.. whether they are of God...

I've been taught by the Master.. to ''listen' and 'listen' very closely...and to 'look' at the eyes... for the 'light' of the body is the EYE...

Jesus is Truly God.. God manifest in the flesh... God put on flesh in the Person of Jesus the Christ...

and Scripture tells us that..

... the fullness of the Godhead 'dwelt' in Him Bodily.....

any 'other' Jesus is just that.. 'another Jesus'.. and it shouldn't suprise True Born Again Believers... for they 'know' and do not marvel... because they 'know' satan comes masquerading as an angel of light...

Partaker of Christ
Apr 27th 2009, 09:40 PM
These verses (that for me) prove the diety of Jesus Christ:

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

-SEEKING-
Apr 27th 2009, 10:20 PM
There is a topic I made a while back in the World Religions section here (i think) about Remnant Fellowship. Would you mind posting a little more information in there about your experience and how you got your wife out of it? They are VERY sensitive to criticism so I have to be so careful or I'm afraid she'll shut me out. But I would like to hear your story in the other topic, if you don't mind...

I found it and I posted there. I hope my information helps.

Watchmen
Apr 27th 2009, 10:49 PM
As some of you may know, I have a close friend who is involved in a cult. They adamantly believe they are following Jesus, go to church regularly and obey the teachings of their leader. However, they reject the doctrine of the Trinity. This, of course, bothers me greatly.

So...I'm going to try to open communication with her, maybe even write a letter or an essay trying to explain the importance of believing in the Trinity. I started this topic to get advice, biblical insight and any guidance people could give me about how to explain this to someone in pretty simple terms. But I want a really solid argument. I'm not looking for analogies. I'm wanting solid scriptural support for the doctrine as well as why rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity is heretical and dangerous.

Thanks in advance!Hmmm, this one is going to be a hard one. #1 Any teachings of the Trinity in scripture is ambiguous at best, and #2 Nowhere in scripture does it say you must believe in the Trinity to be saved or that it is dangerous not to accept it as a true doctrine.


By the way what cult is she part of? I think if she is a part of a cult she would have worse problems that the trinity doctrine.

kenramse
Apr 27th 2009, 11:10 PM
Gen 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.


The first covenant that God had with man was with Noah and we all know the story. After the flood, God covenanted with Noah and through him, all humankind. He sealed the covenant, or rather he signed the contract:

Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

God So wonderfully revealed himself, his FULL self in the rainbow. It is created with light that emanates from the sun and as the light shines through the rain, a prismatic effect takes place where the white light from the sun is broken down and revealed in all the color spectrum, the 7 colors of the rainbow.

Now how does this relate to the trinity?

The sun is the source of the light which can be compared to God, the fulness of God in heaven. As the pure white light of God shines forth it then contacts and penetrates the rain which acts as the prism. A prism is a 3 sided clear refractor of light. Once the one beam of light passes through the prism it is displayed as a rainbow, with the full color spectrum displayed.

So God is One. When He shows himself as the Light and that light then touches the earth and is refracted through a 3 sided prism, the trinity, He is displayed in His fulness, the 7 colored rainbow.

His bow is His signature, one of many presentations that He has provided throughout his Word of Himself. As His signature, it also reveals His character.

*Hope*
Apr 28th 2009, 02:07 AM
I found it and I posted there. I hope my information helps.

Thank you! I found your reply and responded in there too. Thanks!

*Hope*
Apr 28th 2009, 02:11 AM
Hmmm, this one is going to be a hard one. #1 Any teachings of the Trinity in scripture is ambiguous at best, and #2 Nowhere in scripture does it say you must believe in the Trinity to be saved or that it is dangerous not to accept it as a true doctrine.


By the way what cult is she part of? I think if she is a part of a cult she would have worse problems that the trinity doctrine.

Their denial of the Trinity is one of the key reasons they are a cult. I consider it pretty dangerous to reject the Deity of Christ....

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 02:11 PM
Dear Hope,
This can not all be explained here on this board. Useful information for you can be found in the early fathers. Such as St Athanasius "On the Incarnation" and St Basil the Great "On The Holy Spirit" (he addresses how just one misuse of a preposition can be disasterous).

On the Incarnation, by St Athanasius (http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/athanasius/incarnation.shtml) is online with an introduction by CS Lewis. This may give you some helpful information.

St Basil the Great's writing "On the Holy Spirit" I do not find online free. But it is a small inexpensive book with a great deal of information. Or you can pm me and I will send it to you.

These are quite basic writings on the subject which explore it more in depth. As these are some of the fathers who addressed the subject when the Trinity was formulated in the early church councils to deter heresies which had arose.

The first great schism in the church occurred over this subject, when the western Roman church changed the wording for the Holy Spirit. It is known as the "filoque clause" dispute. The eastern church rejects such a change as the western church has put forth. As it has led the western church into error and caused them to deviate from the original Apostolic teachings.

As you can see historically, for centuries, this has been a subject of utmost importance for Christianity and the church. As it is a dogmatic statement that is not to be disputed. Because it guards against heresy, as well as states what we believe in upholding the divinity of Christ.

Perhaps with some study on your part you will come to see it's importance and find some things that will help you to better explain this yourself. I will be happy to answer any specific questions pertaining to the subject. I cannot however answer your friends confusion, as I do not know what that confusion is about. I will try to get to the world religions forum and see what is written/posted there, and see if I can be of any assistance.

Peace be with you,:hug:
Eve

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 05:08 PM
Their denial of the Trinity is one of the key reasons they are a cult. I consider it pretty dangerous to reject the Deity of Christ....
#1 Denying the Trinity is not the same as denying the deity of Christ.
#2 Denying the Trinity does not make you a cult.


Where in scripture do you get the idea that denying the Trinity forfeits salvation?

RF may well be a cult but not because of their denial of the Trinity.

Do you consider the UPC a cult?

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 05:31 PM
#1 Denying the Trinity is not the same as denying the deity of Christ.

According to the earliest of Christian heresy it does.


#2 Denying the Trinity does not make you a cult.

It doesn't make you part of the historical church Jesus established.
There is no salvation apart from the church which is also His body.


Where in scripture do you get the idea that denying the Trinity forfeits salvation?

Jesus said if you confess Him to men He will confess you to the Father. Matt. 10:32, Rev. 3:5


RF may well be a cult but not because of their denial of the Trinity.

Do you consider the UPC a cult?

Does the UPC deny the Trinity?

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 05:40 PM
According to the earliest of Christian heresy it does.If someone believes that God Himself became a man and not ''God the Son''. Then they have accepted the divinity of Christ, yet do not accept the teaching of the Trinity



It doesn't make you part of the historical church Jesus established.
There is no salvation apart from the church which is also His body.Salvation comes from faith in Christ, His death and resurrection, His Lordship of your life. Not by any acceptance of any particular doctrine, or induction into any particular ''church''



Jesus said if you confess Him to men He will confess you to the Father. Matt. 10:32, Rev. 3:5Denying the teaching of the Trinity and denying Christ is two very different things.



Does the UPC deny the Trinity?Yes they do. They believe God is one ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son'' and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit'', not that the three are separate persons but one and the same. Outside of that they are similar to other Evangelical churches in their doctrine. They are no cult.


Am I a member of the UPC? NO

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 05:43 PM
If someone believes that God Himself became a man and not ''God the Son''. Then they have accepted the divinity of Christ, yet do not accept the teaching of the Trinity


Salvation comes from faith in Christ, His death and resurrection, His Lordship of your life. Not by any acceptance of any particular doctrine of ''church''


Denying the teaching of the Trinity and denying Christ is two very duifferent things.


Yes they do. They believe God is one ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son'' and is a Spirit'' The Holy Spirit'', not that the three are separate persons but one and the same. Outside of that they are similar to other Evangelical churches in their doctrine. They are no cult.


Am I a member of the UPC? NO

I believe that the UPC understanding of Christ is horribly inadequate and is in fact heretical and a false teaching...it is modalism, pure and simple. Whether individual members of the UPC are Christians in spite of their theology is an analysis that I leave up to God, just as I leave the question of the salvation of members of other errant groups up to God.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 05:47 PM
I believe that the UPC understanding of Christ is horribly inadequate and is in fact heretical and a false teaching...it is modalism, pure and simple. Whether individual members of the UPC are Christians in spite of their theology is an analysis that I leave up to God, just as I leave the question of the salvation of members of other errant groups up to God.They may be wrong but what they teach is no more Modalism than it is Trinitarianism. However there is not one scripture in the bible that condemns them therefore I will not.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 06:32 PM
If someone believes that God Himself became a man and not ''God the Son''. Then they have accepted the divinity of Christ, yet do not accept the teaching of the Trinity

There are plenty of ancient teachings of the so called "mystery schools" on the god-man. So how would you know the difference if what a person believes is like one of those teachings, or a true teaching of the church.


Salvation comes from faith in Christ, His death and resurrection, His Lordship of your life. Not by any acceptance of any particular doctrine, or induction into any particular ''church''

I believe the church is a living reality. Not an abstract thought.
I also believe the church is the actual Body of Christ present here on this earth. IOW the Kingdom, and there is no salvation outside of that.


Denying the teaching of the Trinity and denying Christ is two very different things.

I don't see the difference. I didn't deny either, but only believed in God, until the Father revealed the Son to me. At that time I came to His Body the Church for further guidance.


Yes they do. They believe God is one ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son'' and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit'', not that the three are separate persons but one and the same. Outside of that they are similar to other Evangelical churches in their doctrine. They are no cult.


Am I a member of the UPC? NO

I don't gather info on cults, not my judgement call. The church declares that there is only One God. Personally I don't know what to make of Evangelicals, they stir people up a lot is all I know.
However the church wouldn't necessarily call them cults, more like schismatics (slid off the original teachings with full knowledge) or heterodox (wrong teaching, but not aware of it).

To deny is to be in denial, a rebellious state of being. To be deceived means that you do not know, or you wouldn't be deceived.
So IMHO they're in rebellious denial or deceived.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 08:23 PM
If someone believes that God Himself became a man and not ''God the Son''. Then they have accepted the divinity of Christ, yet do not accept the teaching of the Trinity


Salvation comes from faith in Christ, His death and resurrection, His Lordship of your life. Not by any acceptance of any particular doctrine, or induction into any particular ''church''


Denying the teaching of the Trinity and denying Christ is two very different things.


Yes they do. They believe God is one ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son'' and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit'', not that the three are separate persons but one and the same. Outside of that they are similar to other Evangelical churches in their doctrine. They are no cult.


Am I a member of the UPC? NO


Think of it this way. If the Trinity isn't true, what is our alternative?

It means that Christ upon the cross was God as a whole dying. The Bible is very emphatic that God cannot die nor can He be seen by human eyes. Yet, on the cross we have both God dying and being seen. So without the Trinity, we run into problems that either change our view of inerrancy, our view of God, or our view of Christ's sacrifice.

Either way, a denial of the Trinity will implicitly lead to a denial of what Christ accomplished on the cross as well as change our view of God.

So, it really does matter. It matters quite a bit. I would argue that the incarnation is tied up in the Trinity - without a belief in the Trinity, it is impossible to believe in the incarnation as taught in Scripture. This is why a denial of the Trinity almost always goes hand in hand with a denial of Christ's divine nature. In fact, a denial of the Trinity almost always proceeds a denial of the Incarnation.

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 08:39 PM
Think of it this way. If the Trinity isn't true, what is our alternative?

It means that Christ upon the cross was God as a whole dying. The Bible is very emphatic that God cannot die nor can He be seen by human eyes. Yet, on the cross we have both God dying and being seen. So without the Trinity, we run into problems that either change our view of inerrancy, our view of God, or our view of Christ's sacrifice.

Either way, a denial of the Trinity will implicitly lead to a denial of what Christ accomplished on the cross as well as change our view of God.

So, it really does matter. It matters quite a bit. I would argue that the incarnation is tied up in the Trinity - without a belief in the Trinity, it is impossible to believe in the incarnation as taught in Scripture. This is why a denial of the Trinity almost always goes hand in hand with a denial of Christ's divine nature. In fact, a denial of the Trinity almost always proceeds a denial of the Incarnation.

Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 28th 2009, 09:03 PM
But Christ didn't come preaching The Trinity, He came preaching Himself. So, could you believe in Jesus and just leave the Trinity unaddressed? Must you accept or deny?

Ethnikos
Apr 28th 2009, 09:04 PM
It seems like what Gwen is trying to say is that Jesus had a God. Somehow, in her mind, she finds an inconsistency between Jesus having someone to look up to while in his human state, and Jesus being able to be God also. She says that they are two separate beings.
It is difficult to go into an apology for the trinity without slipping off the slope, one side or the other. This can happen to the best of us. Tossing away the "divinity" of Jesus is something that is indefensible. If you do that, you might as well throw out the Bible while you are at it. Once you decide to go it on your own and just make stuff up as you see fit, then you become a cult, that is if you are able to persuade others to follow you.
Here is one of my ways of trying to discuss this thing about Jesus being God:If you take the first few verses of John 1, and read it the way it seems to be saying, you have The Word and you have the Son. One comes first and existed before creation. The Son comes second and is the incarnation of the first. The man Jesus has a beginning but he also has that part of his being that preexisted. John says The Word became flesh. The word is differentiated from God by saying it was with God. It is impossible to explain the nature of the relationship between The Word, and God. So, you have this statement by John saying that the Son was in the bosom of the Father and has an intimate knowledge of Him. What is unknowable by us humans, concerning a spiritual thing, is made somewhat understandable when it is describing the human being, Jesus. Another thing that this reveals is that apparently, there is a certain level of continuity of consciousness that survives the transformation of The Word into Jesus.
It is interesting that there is a redundancy in John 1. In verse 1 it says, "In the beginning was the word. . ." Then in the second verse it repeats the idea, "The same was with God at the beginning." It is emphasizing a point by repeating it. "The same" meaning, The Word. What is the point being driven home with the second pronouncement? My opinion is that John wants to make sure people understand this principle, which is, "One way or another, even if we do not understand it, this person we know as Jesus, though he was born as a man, is eternal, in the best way that we can know what the concept means."

David Taylor
Apr 28th 2009, 09:19 PM
But Christ didn't come preaching The Trinity, He came preaching Himself. So, could you believe in Jesus and just leave the Trinity unaddressed? Must you accept or deny?

Well we are to accept His Word.

The Word tells us clearly that:


the Father is God,
the Son is God, and
the Holy Spirit is God.

How can we leave that unaddressed? How can we choose to deny His Word?

Shouldn't the Christian who reads the scriptures and sees God's word tell them that both Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; then be led by the Spirit to accept it?

How can there be any doubt, since the Word itself that we are to follow, tells us so in regard to all three (not 1, not 2, not 4, or 5) being God?

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 09:33 PM
But Christ didn't come preaching The Trinity, He came preaching Himself. So, could you believe in Jesus and just leave the Trinity unaddressed? Must you accept or deny?

But He did preach the Trinity when He spoke of the Father and when He spoke of the Spirit/Comforter.

See Colossians 1:20 where it says it pleased the Father, that in Him all the fullness should dwell.
This addresses the gnostics who used the term "the fullness" to describe all the spiritual beings and forces they saw as intervening between God and man. Of these, Jesus was seen as but one mediator in one level of existence with one force.

Paul differs, saying Christ is Himself the fulness. Jesus is everything, God in all fullness.

I don't know of any traditional churches that leave the Trinity unaddressed. When God reveals His Son to someone, the church has been provided with the Comforter/Holy Spirit to explain these things.
So why accept one part without the other. Would it be alright to accept Christ and deny the Spirit the Father sent to illuminate the church. Wouldn't that leave something lacking where Jesus said nothing would be lacking.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 09:57 PM
But Christ didn't come preaching The Trinity, He came preaching Himself. So, could you believe in Jesus and just leave the Trinity unaddressed? Must you accept or deny?


He did preach Himself, but considering He is part of the Trinity.... :)


That's the point I was making. He made claims to divinity, yet He died. So we are left with a few options:

1) God as a whole can die, therefore Jesus didn't really "die" like we die
2) Jesus wasn't God
3) Jesus is part of the Trinity; thus He died, being God, but God as a whole did not die.

I think implicit in your reply (and I could be wrong) is that the Trinity is a "man-made" doctrine. You said, "Christ didn't teach the Trinity; He taught Himself." This would imply that the Trinity is a belief that was added on after the fact. Instead, we see this belief within Scripture when Christ teaches about Himself. It is true that we're extrapolating from Scripture and explaining it in terms we can understand, but this makes the truth of the Trinity no less true.

Does that help?

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:07 PM
Think of it this way. If the Trinity isn't true, what is our alternative? That Jesus is God in the flesh, fully God and not just ''God the Son''

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:09 PM
But Christ didn't come preaching The Trinity, He came preaching Himself. So, could you believe in Jesus and just leave the Trinity unaddressed? Must you accept or deny?Yes, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior you are saved regardless of were you stand on the Trinity debate.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:10 PM
That Jesus is God in the flesh, fully God and not just ''God the Son''
Mazel tov, but that ignores the rest of my post. :)


Think of it this way. If the Trinity isn't true, what is our alternative?

It means that Christ upon the cross was God as a whole dying. The Bible is very emphatic that God cannot die nor can He be seen by human eyes. Yet, on the cross we have both God dying and being seen. So without the Trinity, we run into problems that either change our view of inerrancy, our view of God, or our view of Christ's sacrifice.

Either way, a denial of the Trinity will implicitly lead to a denial of what Christ accomplished on the cross as well as change our view of God.

So, it really does matter. It matters quite a bit. I would argue that the incarnation is tied up in the Trinity - without a belief in the Trinity, it is impossible to believe in the incarnation as taught in Scripture. This is why a denial of the Trinity almost always goes hand in hand with a denial of Christ's divine nature. In fact, a denial of the Trinity almost always proceeds a denial of the Incarnation.

That's the point I was making. He made claims to divinity, yet He died. So we are left with a few options:

1) God as a whole can die, therefore Jesus didn't really "die" like we die
2) Jesus wasn't God
3) Jesus is part of the Trinity; thus He died, being God, but God as a whole did not die.

I think implicit in your reply (and I could be wrong) is that the Trinity is a "man-made" doctrine. You said, "Christ didn't teach the Trinity; He taught Himself." This would imply that the Trinity is a belief that was added on after the fact. Instead, we see this belief within Scripture when Christ teaches about Himself. It is true that we're extrapolating from Scripture and explaining it in terms we can understand, but this makes the truth of the Trinity no less true.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:13 PM
Well we are to accept His Word.

The Word tells us clearly that:


the Father is God,
the Son is God, and
the Holy Spirit is God.

How can we leave that unaddressed? How can we choose to deny His Word?

Shouldn't the Christian who reads the scriptures and sees God's word tell them that both Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; then be led by the Spirit to accept it?

How can there be any doubt, since the Word itself that we are to follow, tells us so in regard to all three (not 1, not 2, not 4, or 5) being God?And yet you can believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 28th 2009, 10:15 PM
He did preach Himself, but considering He is part of the Trinity.... :)


That's the point I was making. He made claims to divinity, yet He died. So we are left with a few options:

1) God as a whole can die, therefore Jesus didn't really "die" like we die
2) Jesus wasn't God
3) Jesus is part of the Trinity; thus He died, being God, but God as a whole did not die.

I think implicit in your reply (and I could be wrong) is that the Trinity is a "man-made" doctrine. You said, "Christ didn't teach the Trinity; He taught Himself." This would imply that the Trinity is a belief that was added on after the fact. Instead, we see this belief within Scripture when Christ teaches about Himself. It is true that we're extrapolating from Scripture and explaining it in terms we can understand, but this makes the truth of the Trinity no less true.

Does that help?It's all helping...a lot. Thank you.

For the record, I do accept The Trinity 100%, just trying to gain in my understanding of it.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:18 PM
And yet you can believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity.


That's worded incorrectly. To deny the Trinity you would have to say that the Son and Spirit are extensions and/or modes of God, which isn't true and, as I pointed out, brings up many problems - most of which affect our salvation.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:18 PM
But He did preach the Trinity when He spoke of the Father and when He spoke of the Spirit/Comforter.However He says that He is the Father and that He is the Holy Spirit.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus is not saying here that is is ''one'' with the Father as in John 10:30 or in John 17, but that He is indeed the Father incarnate.



John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Here Jesus tells us the He (Jesus) will not leave us alone, but that He (The Holy Spirit) will come to us. Jesus Speaks of the man and the Spirit both in first person. Why would He do this?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:19 PM
It's all helping...a lot. Thank you.

For the record, I do accept The Trinity 100%, just trying to gain in my understanding of it.


Not a problem.

Often times when you see people devaluing a belief in the Trinity it's because they just don't know enough about the Trinity. They don't know what is actually taught, they don't know the Scriptures, they don't know the history, etc. Very rarely will you run upon someone who actually understands the teaching of the Trinity that in turn devalues the importance of the Trinity.

And this isn't necessarily the person's fault either; after all, when was the last time you heard a sermon on the Trinity?

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:21 PM
That's worded incorrectly. To deny the Trinity you would have to say that the Son and Spirit are extensions and/or modes of God, which isn't true and, as I pointed out, brings up many problems - most of which affect our salvation.Nope you do not have to be Trinitarian nor a modalist to believe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are God

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:21 PM
However He says that He is the Father and that He is the Holy Spirit.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus is not saying here that is is ''one'' with the Father as in John 10:30 or in John 17, but that He is indeed the Father incarnate.



John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Here Jesus tells us the He (Jesus) will not leave us alone, but that He (The Holy Spirit) will come to us. Jesus Speaks of the man and the Spirit both in first person. Why would He do this?


Hold on a second - are you denying the Trinity?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:22 PM
Nope you do not have to be Trinitarian nor a modalist to believe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are God
No matter how much you believe that, it doesn't make it true. As I said:

To deny the Trinity you would have to say that the Son and Spirit are extensions and/or modes of God, which isn't true and, as I pointed out, brings up many problems - most of which affect our salvation.

You're not viewing three separate persons when you say, "Father, Son, and Spirit." You're saying all three are one person - this leads to too many negative ramifications.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:23 PM
He did preach Himself, but considering He is part of the Trinity.... :)


That's the point I was making. He made claims to divinity, yet He died. So we are left with a few options:

1) God as a whole can die, therefore Jesus didn't really "die" like we die
2) Jesus wasn't God
3) Jesus is part of the Trinity; thus He died, being God, but God as a whole did not die.

I think implicit in your reply (and I could be wrong) is that the Trinity is a "man-made" doctrine. You said, "Christ didn't teach the Trinity; He taught Himself." This would imply that the Trinity is a belief that was added on after the fact. Instead, we see this belief within Scripture when Christ teaches about Himself. It is true that we're extrapolating from Scripture and explaining it in terms we can understand, but this makes the truth of the Trinity no less true.

Does that help?None of the options you gave are correct. Not only can God not die but no portion of God can die. and to teach that Jesus is just a portion of God is just as heretical as denying the Trinity.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:25 PM
No matter how much you believe that, it doesn't make it true. As I said:

To deny the Trinity you would have to say that the Son and Spirit are extensions and/or modes of God, which isn't true and, as I pointed out, brings up many problems - most of which affect our salvation.

You're not viewing three separate persons when you say, "Father, Son, and Spirit." You're saying all three are one person - this leads to too many negative ramifications.I am no modalist and no matter how much you claim I am will not make it true. I believe separating them as you have done is what causes negative ramifications.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:26 PM
None of the options you gave are correct. Not only can God not die but no portion of God can die. and to teach that Jesus is just a portion of God is just as heretical as denying the Trinity.


Why are they incorrect? What reason are they incorrect?

No portion of God cannot die? So either Jesus didn't die or Jesus isn't God. Which is it?

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:27 PM
I am no modalist and no matter how must you claim I am will not make it true. I believe separating them as you have done is what causes negative ramifications.


You keep giving incomplete answers. Why is my belief so wrong? What negative ramifications?

This is a discussion forum - so please, discuss. One-liners need not apply. :)

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:27 PM
Hold on a second - are you denying the Trinity?This is what I believe.

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God Himself was manifest in the flesh not a portion of God as you claim in post #46

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:29 PM
This is what I believe.

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God Himself was manifest in the flesh not a portion of God as you claim in post #46


Then you're a modalist. There's no escaping that.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:31 PM
Why are they incorrect? What reason are they incorrect?

No portion of God cannot die? So either Jesus didn't die or Jesus isn't God. Which is it?Jesus was not only God, but He was 100% God, not 33% God as you claim. However He was fully man as well - it was the humanity of Christ that died on the cross not His divinity. As you stated correctly and scripture confirms, God cannot die. Not 33% of God, not 1% of God can die.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:32 PM
Then you're a modalist. There's no escaping that.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?And you have no idea what I believe or what modalist teach. There is no escaping that. Your opinion of God is closer to what modalist believe than mine.

Watchmen
Apr 28th 2009, 10:37 PM
This is what I believe.

1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God Himself was manifest in the flesh not a portion of God as you claim in post #46


Then you're a modalist. There's no escaping that.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?First of all I am not modalist, secondly I agree with you . It is very irresponsible for me to believe exactly what the scripture teaches word for word rather than mans explanation of what they think.

Give me a break!!!!

apothanein kerdos
Apr 28th 2009, 10:57 PM
Jesus was not only God, but He was 100% God, not 33% God as you claim. However He was fully man aswell is was the humanity of Christ that died on the cross not His divinity. As you stated correctly and scripture confirms, God Cannot die. Not 33% of God, not 1% of God can die.

This is what I was talking about when I said that people who deny the Trinity don't really understand what is taught.

For example, you're equivocating "person" with "essence." To say that Jesus is a separate person from the Father isn't to say He's "33%" God. God's essence remains the same in all His Persons. The essence of God is not changed, but the Person of God is altered depending on which Person of God we are talking about.


And you have no idea what I believe or what modalist teach. There is no escaping that. Your opinion of God is closer to what modalist believe than mine.

This is a bit too close to the, "I know you are, but what am I" defense - doesn't really work.

Again, you're not explaining yourself. You're giving me one-liners. HOW is my belief close to modalism? How do I not know what modalists teach?

I'll grant that I don't know what you believe, mostly because you've been so secretive about it that not even the KGB could figure out what you believe from the information you've presented.


First of all I am not modalist, secondly I agree with you . It is very irresponsible for me to believe exactly what the scripture teaches word for word rather than mans explanation of what they think.

But you're basing it off your misunderstanding of Scripture. None of us reads Scripture tabula rosa. We all approach it with a bias; the goal is to get past the bias by going through a method of interpretation, which helps to eradicate our biases.

So simply saying, 'Scripture says this' doesn't do much. If anything, when we present a prima facie defense of Scripture, it reveals far more about ourselves than it does about Scripture.

Bladers
Apr 28th 2009, 11:12 PM
However He says that He is the Father and that He is the Holy Spirit.

John 14
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus is not saying here that is is ''one'' with the Father as in John 10:30 or in John 17, but that He is indeed the Father incarnate.



John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Here Jesus tells us the He (Jesus) will not leave us alone, but that He (The Holy Spirit) will come to us. Jesus Speaks of the man and the Spirit both in first person. Why would He do this?

This is totally wrong, you are adding words to the scripture which isnt there. You are taking away the pronouns and nouns and the grammer....

Jesus said, "I will send you another Comforter". The word another in hebrew means "another of the same kind", not the same but another of the same.

The bible also says, Jesus is the Exact representation of God's Person/Being.

Not God the Father, but exact representation of Him. The bible says, Jesus is the image of God.

So when Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". He is confirming what the Scriptures says about Him, He is the image of the invisible God, the exact representation. He is not the invisible God but the image.

Jesus also told the pharisees that the has a Father's shape/form, but you have never seen it. Why would Jesus say that? Because He is not the Father

Watchmen
Apr 29th 2009, 12:36 AM
This is what I was talking about when I said that people who deny the Trinity don't really understand what is taught.

For example, you're equivocating "person" with "essence." To say that Jesus is a separate person from the Father isn't to say He's "33%" God. God's essence remains the same in all His Persons. The essence of God is not changed, but the Person of God is altered depending on which Person of God we are talking about.
I understand the Teaching of the trinity perfectly. You are the one that claimed that only a portion of God died on the Cross. Here is your post, post #46.


He did preach Himself, but considering He is part of the Trinity.... :)


That's the point I was making. He made claims to divinity, yet He died. So we are left with a few options:

1) God as a whole can die, therefore Jesus didn't really "die" like we die
2) Jesus wasn't God
3) Jesus is part of the Trinity; thus He died, being God, but God as a whole did not die.

I think implicit in your reply (and I could be wrong) is that the Trinity is a "man-made" doctrine. You said, "Christ didn't teach the Trinity; He taught Himself." This would imply that the Trinity is a belief that was added on after the fact. Instead, we see this belief within Scripture when Christ teaches about Himself. It is true that we're extrapolating from Scripture and explaining it in terms we can understand, but this makes the truth of the Trinity no less true.

Does that help?

Watchmen
Apr 29th 2009, 12:41 AM
This is totally wrong, you are adding words to the scripture which isnt there. You are taking away the pronouns and nouns and the grammer....

Jesus said, "I will send you another Comforter". The word another in hebrew means "another of the same kind", not the same but another of the same.

The bible also says, Jesus is the Exact representation of God's Person/Being.

Not God the Father, but exact representation of Him. The bible says, Jesus is the image of God.

So when Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". He is confirming what the Scriptures says about Him, He is the image of the invisible God, the exact representation. He is not the invisible God but the image.

Jesus also told the pharisees that the has a Father's shape/form, but you have never seen it. Why would Jesus say that? Because He is not the FatherJesus said He was the Father. What the Bible teaches is that there is one God and that one God is the Father.

John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.



1st Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father


So to deny that Jesus is the Father incarnate is to deny His deity. So you claim to deny the Trinity is to deny the deity of Christ, but I claim to promote the Trinity is to deny the deity of Christ.

apothanein kerdos
Apr 29th 2009, 01:42 AM
I understand the Teaching of the trinity perfectly. You are the one that claimed that only a portion of God died on the Cross. Here is your post, post #46.

I said that if we deny the Trinity, those are the choices we're left with.

Let me ask this as nicely as I can; is the most I can expect out of a discussion with you is one liners? Can I expect that you'll ignore 95% of what I say, respond with a one-liner, be ambiguous, and never clarify what you mean? Is this what I can expect?

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 29th 2009, 01:49 AM
This thread is closed pending Moderator review. It may or may not be reopened, but I ask that no new thread on this topic be started.

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