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manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 12:13 PM
Paul observed the Festivals, how could this same guy be contradicting himself by saying that they should no longer be observed. He cannot.

Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

1Co 5:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.



What do you call theses things Paul did? He was laying down the law.

Do you call them suggestions, instructions, helpful hints, optional mandates, or commandments as in things that were already evident in Torah that can be referenced and Scriptural supported.

Paul was teaching and commanding things not from his own volition but from Torah. When Paul was stating his opinion, he would let the audience know he was not referring to Scriptural authority.

1Co 7:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+7:10&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

2Th 3:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2th+3:6&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1Co 5:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:11&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (All these are defined by what, Torah)

1Co 11:1,2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:11&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


1Co 14:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+14:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I believed what has happened since then is Peter's assessment has come to past countless times.

2Peter 3:16-18 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 12:28 PM
Paul observed the Festivals, how could this same guy be contradicting himself by saying that they should no longer be observed. He cannot.

Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

1Co 5:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.



What do you call theses things Paul did? He was laying down the law.

Do you call them suggestions, instructions, helpful hints, optional mandates, or commandments as in things that were already evident in Torah that can be referenced and Scriptural supported.

Paul was teaching and commanding things not from his own volition but from Torah. When Paul was stating his opinion, he would let the audience know he was not referring to Scriptural authority.

1Co 7:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+7:10&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

2Th 3:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2th+3:6&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

1Co 5:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:11&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (All these are defined by what, Torah)

1Co 11:1,2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:11&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


1Co 14:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+14:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I believed what has happened since then is Peter's assessment has come to past countless times.

2Peter 3:16-18 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2pe+3:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

With the understanding that the law made nothing perfect, it cannot teach all things as does the Holy Spirit. Jesus has told us to follow the Holy Spirit and He the Holy Spirit will teach us all things, how can we depend on that which is incomplete when we have that which is complete?

Firstfuits

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 12:38 PM
With the understanding that the law made nothing perfect, it cannot teach all things as does the Holy Spirit. Jesus has told us to follow the Holy Spirit and he the Holy Spirit will tach us all things, how can we depend on that which is incomplete when we have that which is complete?

Firstfuits

I have said and experienced something different that you refuse to investigate. You actually put them together, with the initial covenant being the foundation and the renewed covenant being the building on top of it. Neither has to be thrown out, but their mutual connects can be seen by a person who matches their hinges together by the Holy Spirit.

You do not throw out the foundation a stable house needs to stand on. If you throw out the Initial Covenant, then the Renewed Covenant has no authority, for you would cut it off from commandments reference only in the initial covenant and prophesies that have yet to be fulfilled.

This is clear and concise Scripture that says that Paul kept the Feast and use Torah to endorse admonishments and teachings.

Can you refute it by dispelling the words Paul used. How can you undo the fact that Paul desperately desired to keep the Festival of Pentecost instead of staying in Ephesus to minister to them. Then he tells women to keep silent in church as the Torah dictates.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 01:33 PM
I have said and experienced something different that you refuse to investigate. You actually put them together, with the initial covenant being the foundation and the renewed covenant being the building on top of it. Neither has to be thrown out, but their mutual connects can be seen by a person who matches their hinges together by the Holy Spirit.

You do not throw out the foundation a stable house needs to stand on. If you throw out the Initial Covenant, then the Renewed Covenant has no authority, for you would cut it off from commandments reference only in the initial covenant and prophesies that have yet to be fulfilled.

This is clear and concise Scripture that says that Paul kept the Feast and use Torah to endorse admonishments and teachings.

Can you refute it by dispelling the words Paul used. How can you undo the fact that Paul desperately desired to keep the Festival of Pentecost instead of staying in Ephesus to minister to them. Then he tells women to keep silent in church as the Torah dictates.

You therefore have two masters or teachers;

Mt 6:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Lk 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Who's teaching will you lean to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 01:40 PM
You therefore have two masters or teachers;

Mt 6:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Lk 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Who's teaching will you lean to?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

No I do not. You just believe I do because you cannot comprehend the same things I say. I have no conflict with myself, the conflict is between your knowledge and experiences and my knowledge and experiences.

I only have one master. The Holy Spirit is my educator and He use Scripture as a textbook like a good teacher would use to train and educate their students.

We simply have two different prospectives of how the textbook should be learned and applicable for establishing principles and lifestyle.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 01:46 PM
No I do not. You just believe I do because you cannot comprehend the same things I say. I have no conflict with myself, the conflict is between your knowledge and experiences and my knowledge and experiences.

I only have one master. The Holy Spirit is my educator and He use Scripture as a textbook like a good teacher would use to train and educate their students.

We simply have two different prospectives of how the textbook should be learned and applicable for establishing principles and lifestyle.

Do you agree that the law is a tutor/teacher?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is a tutor/teacher?

Firstfruits

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 02:06 PM
Do you agree that the law is a tutor/teacher?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is a tutor/teacher?

Firstfruits

What should a man live by.............

De 8:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+8:3&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You provided a Scripture earlier that said that the Spirit brings things back to our rememberance. What is the thing that is brought back to our remberance. Is it not Scripture.

What I said about the Holy Spirit and Scripture in my previous post still stands.

In reference to the word tutor in reference to the law, what translation are you using for Galations 3. The King James of 1611 or New King James.

I got
Paidagogos- instructor, school master as in a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 02:16 PM
What should a man live by.............

De 8:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=de+8:3&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mt 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:4&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You provided a Scripture earlier that said that the Spirit brings things back to our rememberance. What is the thing that is brought back to our remberance. Is it not Scripture.

What I said about the Holy Spirit and Scripture in my previous post still stands.

In reference to the word tutor in reference to the law, what translation are you using for Galations 3. The King James of 1611 or New King James.

I got
Paidagogos- instructor, school master as in a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

My question is, are they both teachers, meaning that you do have two teachers?

Do you agree that the law is a tutor/teacher?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is a tutor/teacher?

It is not my opinion but bible fact that they are both teachers.

Every word of God therefore means that we should abide in the following teaching of Christ.

Mt 6:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Lk 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 27th 2009, 02:29 PM
1Co 5:11 - But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (All these are defined by what, Torah)

Didn't someone say in one of these threads about the law, that eating with others that are seen as 'unclean' is a man made tradition...........seems there is a differnce of opinion among the believers who observe the OT law.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 03:46 PM
My question is, are they both teachers, meaning that you do have two teachers?

Do you agree that the law is a tutor/teacher?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is a tutor/teacher?

It is not my opinion but bible fact that they are both teachers.

Every word of God therefore means that we should abide in the following teaching of Christ.

Mt 6:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Lk 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I have one teacher and comforter, the Holy Spirit. His word teaches and comforts me as well because it was given to manking by the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. If a man writes a text book to teach his students, is he still not the teacher whether in class or when the students are at home with the text book of the teacher.

Are you not taught by the Scripture. You qoute it, hence you must be trying to convey something you have learned from it.

Now my question to you,

Did Paul not keep the festival of Pentecost according to Scripture?

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 03:57 PM
I have one teacher and comforter, the Holy Spirit. His word teaches and comforts me as well because it was given to manking by the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. If a man writes a text book to teach his students, is he still not the teacher whether in class or when the students are at home with the text book of the teacher.

Are you not taught by the Scripture. You qoute it, hence you must be trying to convey something you have learned from it.

Now my question to you,

Did Paul not keep the festival of Pentecost according to Scripture?

But if we are under the tutoring of the Holy Spirit, the we are not under the tutoring of the law.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 27th 2009, 04:00 PM
But if we are under the tutoring of the Holy Spirit, the we are not under the tutoring of the law.

Gal 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I obey my Authority, Jesus and follow His Word, Torah of which He is the Author. The Holy Spirit is my tutor, not men. If I think I've 'learned' something that is in contrast with the Word of God, I know it's wrong. Pretty simple, eh?

Firstfruits
Apr 27th 2009, 04:04 PM
I obey my Authority, Jesus and follow His Word, Torah of which He is the Author. The Holy Spirit is my tutor, not men. If I think I've 'learned' something that is in contrast with the Word of God, I know it's wrong. Pretty simple, eh?

Do you not obey the Holy Spirit and the Torah, or is the law no longer a tutor?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 27th 2009, 04:11 PM
Yeshua is my rabbi.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 04:53 PM
Do you not obey the Holy Spirit and the Torah, or is the law no longer a tutor?

Firstfruits

Yes I obey the Scripture. Its my textbook.

Do you obey the Scripture? I am sure you do.

Do you obey the Holy Spirit? I am sure you do.

It is no different than obeying the Holy Spirit, Father, or Son.

Eben
Apr 27th 2009, 07:44 PM
If we do not accept the fact that there was a change in dispensation and Paul only really made it known after Acts 28:28. Compare the epistles he wrote before and after. You will find that he never did observe any ritual or festival after Acts 28. He had the full knowledge and understanding of the Body of Christ that was being formed out of individuals and not out of Jews. We are free of all these things. Why do we want to go back to the old things, is it not to boast or to satisfy the flesh?
In Christ

keck553
Apr 27th 2009, 08:07 PM
Please provide Scritpture that specifically backs up your claims.

God says if we love Him, our reponse is obedience to His commands. If we don't love Him, we either obey His commands to impress others or disobey His commands and follow our lusts and foolish desires, both motivations resulting in 'boasting,' and neither as a response to love. But a response to love will always be obedience. God says so and no man may change that statement. No one is to look upon thier brother and judge his/her obedience as vanity. That judgement is for God and God alone.

Thank you.

manichunter
Apr 27th 2009, 08:45 PM
If we do not accept the fact that there was a change in dispensation and Paul only really made it known after Acts 28:28. Compare the epistles he wrote before and after. You will find that he never did observe any ritual or festival after Acts 28. He had the full knowledge and understanding of the Body of Christ that was being formed out of individuals and not out of Jews. We are free of all these things. Why do we want to go back to the old things, is it not to boast or to satisfy the flesh?
In Christ

I can easily say from my stance, why do you do what you do as far as what you see as pertinent to worship and ritual daily. I will guess you do them because you see them as legitimate and pertinent to your love and respect towards God. Hence, how can you say what you deem as irrevelent to you, not be critical to me.

You cannot control or legitmized what is proper worship and service towards God for others unless it is heresy (causes division), witchcraft (paganism), or false doctrine (things that pass off the things of satan as the things of God).

Emanate
Apr 27th 2009, 08:46 PM
With the understanding that the law made nothing perfect, it cannot teach all things as does the Holy Spirit. Jesus has told us to follow the Holy Spirit and He the Holy Spirit will teach us all things, how can we depend on that which is incomplete when we have that which is complete?

Firstfuits


What are you wanting to depend on? the law? the law was not made to depend on, to suggest otherwise is in violation to the words of Saul.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

To be spritually minded is to be subject to the law.

Emanate
Apr 27th 2009, 08:47 PM
If we do not accept the fact that there was a change in dispensation and Paul only really made it known after Acts 28:28. Compare the epistles he wrote before and after. You will find that he never did observe any ritual or festival after Acts 28. He had the full knowledge and understanding of the Body of Christ that was being formed out of individuals and not out of Jews. We are free of all these things. Why do we want to go back to the old things, is it not to boast or to satisfy the flesh?
In Christ


So ALL scriputre is NOT profitable for training in righteousness?

keck553
Apr 27th 2009, 08:52 PM
So ALL scriputre is NOT profitable for training in righteousness?

Let's see what Reb Sha'ul says.....

2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living;
(17) thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

manichunter
Apr 28th 2009, 04:49 AM
If we do not accept the fact that there was a change in dispensation and Paul only really made it known after Acts 28:28. Compare the epistles he wrote before and after. You will find that he never did observe any ritual or festival after Acts 28. He had the full knowledge and understanding of the Body of Christ that was being formed out of individuals and not out of Jews. We are free of all these things. Why do we want to go back to the old things, is it not to boast or to satisfy the flesh?
In Christ


I cannot find any where in the Scripture Paul said such a thing about His actions. Another thing is that the NT Scripture from Romans to Titus are not in any time line order, but in order of size. Hence, there is not tracking of when he wrote the letters in reference to how they fit as far as which was last or first.

bagofseed
Apr 28th 2009, 06:31 AM
What are you wanting to depend on? the law? the law was not made to depend on, to suggest otherwise is in violation to the words of Saul.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

To be spritually minded is to be subject to the law.
You changed the verse, and illegitimately applied it.
to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

The law is for the fleshly, not the spiritual.

manichunter
Apr 28th 2009, 06:39 AM
You changed the verse, and legitimately applied it.
to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

The law is for the fleshly, not the spiritual.

By the way, have you prayed for me today dear brother?

You said that you would.

I pray for you prosperity and good health in the Lord, that you be blessed to work goodness into the lives of others. :)

manichunter
Apr 28th 2009, 06:44 AM
You changed the verse, and legitimately applied it.
to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 1:9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

The law is for the fleshly, not the spiritual.



P.S.

Paul did keep the feast of Pentecost and he did tell women to remain silent in church and learn at home according to torah. These Scriptures provide clear evidence people willfully ignore to keep saying the same thing without an honest look over and test.

Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus



1Co 14:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+14:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

What say you?

bagofseed
Apr 28th 2009, 07:31 AM
P.S.

Paul did keep the feast of Pentecost and he did tell women to remain silent in church and learn at home according to torah. These Scriptures provide clear evidence people willfully ignore to keep saying the same thing without an honest look over and test.

Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus



1Co 14:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+14:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

What say you?
As for the keeping of the feast it gives no reason. Might have been meeting someone there for all we know.
For the unruly women if they where loving righteous women living according to the Spirit, they would need no law to direct there conduct.

Do you agree that law is not intended for a righteous person?

How does this effect how the law is to be approached?

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 02:19 PM
You changed the verse, and illegitimately applied it.
to be spiritually minded is life and peace.....
The law is for the fleshly, not the spiritual.


The law is for the fleshly, not the spiritual.
Do tell how I changed the verse. I even used the Authorized KJV that Saul loved so much.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Also, can you tell me why YHWH would give rest, peace, and love to the fleshly and not the spiritual?

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 02:23 PM
As for the keeping of the feast it gives no reason. Might have been meeting someone there for all we know.


So your interpretatation of "I must by all means keep this feast" is "I am gonna meet someone in Jerusalem who will be there for the feast?" Seriously?

The reason is quite clear, "I must keep this feast" means "I am going to keep this appointed time as laid out in scripture". To suggest otherwise is truly reaching to say the least.

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 02:26 PM
Manichunter Paul observed the Festivals, how could this same guy be contradicting himself by saying that they should no longer be observed. He cannot.

It's real simple. If you are a Gentile you never had to keep them and you never will. :)

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 03:24 PM
It's real simple. If you are a Gentile you never had to keep them and you never will. :)


Why would we want to miss an Appointed Time simply because we are Gentiles? Messiah is not the Passover of the Gentiles, only the Jews?

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 03:36 PM
Why would we want to miss an Appointed Time simply because we are Gentiles? Messiah is not the Passover of the Gentiles, only the Jews?

Ah, but He is, the Pascha of the Gentiles. The Christian church celebrates it in their Resurrection feast called Pascha.
Of course it is not the same as the "Passover" the Jews celebrate, which is the Exodus from Egypt they are commemorating.

As Jesus said, "greater things". Greater things are not ethnic oriented. They are framed in a universal cosmology.

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 04:06 PM
Why would we want to miss an Appointed Time simply because we are Gentiles? Messiah is not the Passover of the Gentiles, only the Jews?

If I understand the OP correctly, it suggests that since Paul kept the Festivals then we should also keep them. But as we have discussed in other threads on this subject we read where Paul recommends against Gentile participation in them.

The answer to your question is, we miss the appointed times because the times are appointed for the Jews. We expect Paul to keep the festivals because he, like Jesus, is a Jew. It isn't any more complicated than that.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 04:35 PM
Ah, but He is, the Pascha of the Gentiles. The Christian church celebrates it in their Resurrection feast called Pascha.
Of course it is not the same as the "Passover" the Jews celebrate, which is the Exodus from Egypt they are commemorating.

As Jesus said, "greater things". Greater things are not ethnic oriented. They are framed in a universal cosmology.

God's moedim are not ethnic. Any holiday not commanded by God is ethnic. To say an appointed time God Himself set apart is ethnic is is to diminish His Holiness into common. Think about it. Think about God - culture, not some ethnic culture. Does He not ask us to be set apart for Him? How? He gave us the directions. All we need to do is follow - the - leader, yes?

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 05:22 PM
God's moedim are not ethnic. Any holiday not commanded by God is ethnic. To say an appointed time God Himself set apart is ethnic is is to diminish His Holiness into common. Think about it. Think about God - culture, not some ethnic culture. Does He not ask us to be set apart for Him? How? He gave us the directions. All we need to do is follow - the - leader, yes?

God is beyond "moedim" (appointed times). We do not need an appointment to meet with God. Come on Keck. Our Lord meets us moment by moment in our being. The concept is beyond our understanding which is set in time. God is not defined within the limitations of periods of time.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 05:33 PM
God is beyond "moedim" (appointed times). We do not need an appointment to meet with God. Come on Keck. Our Lord meets us moment by moment in our being. The concept is beyond our understanding which is set in time. God is not defined within the limitations of periods of time.

I didn't choose to do it this way, God did. Like you said, it's beyond our understanding, so why all the workarounds? God isn't confined, but we are at this point, stuck here on a nasty, evil, falled and decaying world and God is reaching out to us with His Son, His Word and His Wisdom as our only life line. Like it or not, we are in a box and God has given us a free chioce to climb out our way or His way. Soloman wrote an entire book of working around all of God's commands in just about every way conceivable and in the end, he came up with the only one truth:

Ecc 12:13
(13) The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

I simply refuse to use my own reasoning to blot out God's commands.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 06:03 PM
I didn't choose to do it this way, God did. Like you said, it's beyond our understanding, so why all the workarounds? God isn't confined, but we are at this point, stuck here on a nasty, evil, falled and decaying world and God is reaching out to us with His Son, His Word and His Wisdom as our only life line. Like it or not, we are in a box and God has given us a free chioce to climb out our way or His way. Soloman wrote an entire book of working around all of God's commands in just about every way conceivable and in the end, he came up with the only one truth:

Ecc 12:13
(13) The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

I simply refuse to use my own reasoning to blot out God's commands.

Your deviating from the point. And you used the specific wording of "moedim". "Moedim" was an appointed time for the people to meet with God. Where does scripture say that Jesus made an appointment in time with us?
Time is a creation of God for us. IOW a necessity for our state of being. It's just part of experience, not the end of it.

I also don't think you understand the whole cosmological concept such things represent. I myself have only just gotten my feet wet in that subject. And believe me I have been through the wringer on times, feasts, and calendars. But those were like grade school compared to the cosmology of all things.

And you don't have to blot out God's commands. Go to the church. In fact, go to every church until you find the one that can give you the answers you need.
Technically I don't know if you need to be proselytized to tell you where to go, since you don't seem to have a church mother to care for you.
But I can tell you with certainty that the church has the answers for you. As deep or shallow as you want to go, you'll never reach the bottom.

I can't believe I have to keep telling a Christian to go to church.:crazy:

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 06:15 PM
Teke.

ANYONE in Biblical times could come to the Temple, sacrifice or go to thier home and pray to God at ANYTIME, 24/7.

That is NOT the purpose of God's Moedim, and yes, I do understand the Teleological aspects.

One more thing Teke. I've been gone to church longer than you have drawn breath in this world. Every church on earth is an imperfect group of folks trying to follow a perfect God. I'm saved Teke, what else do you require? Me to parrot your doctrine, your culture? While I respect yours, I won't do it.

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 06:17 PM
If I understand the OP correctly, it suggests that since Paul kept the Festivals then we should also keep them. But as we have discussed in other threads on this subject we read where Paul recommends against Gentile participation in them.

The answer to your question is, we miss the appointed times because the times are appointed for the Jews. We expect Paul to keep the festivals because he, like Jesus, is a Jew. It isn't any more complicated than that.


Ironically, As apostle to the gentiles, Saul always taught Messiah to Gentiles in the synagogue on Sabbath.

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 06:20 PM
Your deviating from the point. And you used the specific wording of "moedim". "Moedim" was an appointed time for the people to meet with God. Where does scripture say that Jesus made an appointment in time with us?

Uh, Messiah came in the moedim and brought salvation to the world, per the appointed times. Messiah has precisely fulfilled the Appointed Times for us. Do we see the times?

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 06:20 PM
I simply refuse to use my own reasoning to blot out God's commands.

I understand not wanting to blot out Gods commands, however if we are not keeping them according to Gods commands then what is worse?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 06:23 PM
I understand not wanting to blot out Gods commands, however if we are not keeping them according to Gods commands then what is worse?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You're asking an opinion? What does God say about it?

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 06:34 PM
You're asking an opinion? What does God say about it?

This is what God has said about it.

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Ps 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=53&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

God bless you!

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 06:37 PM
God has made me clean through the atonement of Yeshua's blood.

Am I allowed to obey God now?

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 06:38 PM
God has made me clean through the atonement of Yeshua's blood.

Am I allowed to obey God now?

As God convinces you to do in your conscience by faith, absolutely!!!

:saint:

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 06:51 PM
This is what God has said about it.

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Ps 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=53&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Ps 14:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Kings 11:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=11&chapter=11&verse=38&version=9&context=verse)
And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.

Perfect grace found within Torah.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 06:56 PM
Teke.

ANYONE in Biblical times could come to the Temple, sacrifice or go to thier home and pray to God at ANYTIME, 24/7.

That is NOT the purpose of God's Moedim, and yes, I do understand the Teleological aspects.

One more thing Teke. I've been gone to church longer than you have drawn breath in this world. Every church on earth is an imperfect group of folks trying to follow a perfect God. I'm saved Teke, what else do you require? Me to parrot your doctrine, your culture? While I respect yours, I won't do it.

You brought "moedim" into the mix. And you contrasted "cosmology" that I posted with "teleology", they are not the same thing.

And sure the church isn't perfect as it is comprised of imperfect beings. But it is representive of Jesus, both divine (by His divinity) and imperfect (in it's humanity). You seem to hold a superior attitude to that.

But now I'm curious of your age, since you've been going to church since before I was born. Are you over 50 yrs old?

I require nothing of you Keck. Jesus on the other hand, requires you to give an explanation of yourself when asked.

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 06:58 PM
I require nothing of you Keck. Jesus on the other hand, requires you to give an explanation of yourself when asked.


You mean our sins are not forgiven?

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:02 PM
I require nothing of you Keck. Jesus on the other hand, requires you to give an explanation of yourself when asked.

Do you suppose He will be delighted if I tell Him I followed the precepts of a group of men rather than His Word?

And yes, I am over 50.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:04 PM
Uh, Messiah came in the moedim and brought salvation to the world, per the appointed times. Messiah has precisely fulfilled the Appointed Times for us. Do we see the times?

That would just mean that all of time is God's time. As time itself is a creation of God.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:06 PM
You mean our sins are not forgiven?

What does that have to do with bearing witness of Him.....

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:11 PM
Do you suppose He will be delighted if I tell Him I followed the precepts of a group of men rather than His Word?

And yes, I am over 50.

Do I believe He will be delighted because you were obedient to Him in His Body the Church. Yes I do. Obedience is obedience, right or wrong. Whether what I told my children was right or wrong, I expect obedience nonetheless. If I was wrong, then I will answer for it, but if they are disobedient they will answer for it. Everyone's sin is their own, not the fault of others.

We should not denigrate the church. That is like trampling on holy things.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:13 PM
God has made me clean through the atonement of Yeshua's blood.

Am I allowed to obey God now?

Knowing that Christ is dead to the law and we through Christ are likewise dead to the law, what is it you want to obey according to what God has commanded?

Firstfruits

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:13 PM
Do I believe He will be delighted because you were obedient to Him in His Body the Church. Yes I do. Obedience is obedience, right or wrong. Whether what I told my children was right or wrong, I expect obedience nonetheless. If I was wrong, then I will answer for it, but if they are disobedient they will answer for it. Everyone's sin is their own, not the fault of others.

We should not denigrate the church. That is like trampling on holy things.
Denegrate the church? Show me where I have done that. As to the precepts of men, I only recognise them as common, not Holy.

The church? What church? Which sect? Is the one I belong to not good enough?

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:14 PM
Knowing that Christ is dead to the law and we through Christ are likewise dead to the law, what is it you want to obey according to what God has commanded?

Firstfruits

The Author of the Law.

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 07:16 PM
Do you suppose He will be delighted if I tell Him I followed the precepts of a group of men rather than His Word?

And yes, I am over 50.

His word tells you that as a Gentile you don't need to keep the festivals. None of us do. If you think God has commanded you to keep the festivals, then we need to review God's word again.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:18 PM
His word tells you that as a Gentile you don't need to keep the festivals. None of us do. If you think God has commanded you to keep the festivals, then we need to review God's word again.

"As a Gentile?" Since when has God added to His world that Jew and Gentile are no longer one, and that God is a respector of persons? Did I miss some, newer version?

I am free in Christ to do as I please. That's your doctrine. Let's not get legalistic, OK?

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:24 PM
The Author of the Law.

Well then according to the new covenant and the gospel of Christ what has Christ commanded?

Jn 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Rom 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

According to the gospel of Christ is there any other teaching?

Firstfruits

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:25 PM
Denegrate the church? Show me where I have done that. As to the precepts of men, I only recognise them as common, not Holy.

The church? What church? Which sect? Is the one I belong to not good enough?

You are the one who posted to me on 'common' in a post you did about Peter and his vision with the sheet full of animals. You said, that this meant that God said for Peter not to consider others that weren't Jews as "common". Now your saying there is a difference.:confused

Forgive me if I misunderstood you. The way you post about the churches sounds like someone who doesn't like, nor is affiliated with any church. Forgive my mistaken understanding. :hug:

In peace,
Eve

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 07:26 PM
That would just mean that all of time is God's time. As time itself is a creation of God.


I am not sure you addressed my post. Fact: God his "His Appointed Times (moedim)" What does this have to do with "all of time is God's time?"

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 07:31 PM
I am not sure you addressed my post. Fact: God his "His Appointed Times (moedim)" What does this have to do with "all of time is God's time?"

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:32 PM
Well then according to the new covenant and the gospel of Christ what has Christ commanded?

Jn 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Rom 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

According to the gospel of Christ is there any other teaching?

Firstfruits

So are two gay guys who love each other fulfilling Messiah's command?

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 07:33 PM
You are the one who posted to me on 'common' in a post you did about Peter and his vision with the sheet full of animals. You said, that this meant that God said for Peter not to consider others that weren't Jews as "common". Now your saying there is a difference.:confused

ya lost me. sorry.


Forgive me if I misunderstood you. The way you post about the churches sounds like someone who doesn't like, nor is affiliated with any church. Forgive my mistaken understanding. :hug:

This format is difficult. The last thing I want to do is denigrate your relationship with God. honest.

Firstfruits
Apr 28th 2009, 07:37 PM
So are two gay guys who love each other fulfilling Messiah's command?

Would that be brotherly love?

Rom 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Firstfruits

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 07:41 PM
Would that be brotherly love?

Rom 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Firstfruits

Perhaps it is in Philadelphia... :)

:rofl:

Ok, back to our program...

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 07:50 PM
"As a Gentile?" Since when has God added to His world that Jew and Gentile are no longer one, and that God is a respector of persons? Did I miss some, newer version?

I am free in Christ to do as I please. That's your doctrine. Let's not get legalistic, OK?

God has not changed his word. He says that Gentiles are not obligated to keep the Festivals. That's in his word.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 08:14 PM
Would that be brotherly love?

Rom 12:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Firstfruits

Is the relationship sanctioned by God? Yes or no.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 08:16 PM
God has not changed his word. He says that Gentiles are not obligated to keep the Festivals. That's in his word.

Please show me specifically where God says:

"Gentiles are not to keep My feasts"

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 08:26 PM
Please show me specifically where God says:

"Gentiles are not to keep My feasts"

It's right next to the part that says "Gentiles shall keep My feasts"

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 08:45 PM
Perhaps it is in Philadelphia... :)

:rofl:

Ok, back to our program...

oh man oh man oh man. Indeed, you are salt of the earth! And I'll even say kosher (only through Messiah!)

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 08:53 PM
Please show me specifically where God says:

"Gentiles are not to keep My feasts"

Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a [mere] shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Colossians 2:8

The phrase "elementary principles of the world" is a translation of the Greek phrase "stoicheia tou kosmou" (pronounced "stoy - kay - ah - two - kos - moo."

The Greek word "kosmos", which is translated "world" is where we get our English word "cosmos". But the main idea behind this word is "any ordered system." A "kosmos" is any type of ordered system such as the stars and the planets. This is also where we get our word "cosmetics" which connotes the ordered system of a woman's face.

In Paul's discouse, the "stoicheia tou kosmou" are the rites and rituals that comprise the Mosaic Law as we see here in Galatians,

So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world [stoicheia tou kosmou]. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:3-5

And so he asks the question,

But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? Galatians 4:9

The rites and rituals of the Mosaic Law are weak and worthless to those who now have Christ.

Teke
Apr 28th 2009, 09:06 PM
ya lost me. sorry.

Your are reminding me of Fenris now.:P
You said, "As to the precepts of men, I only recognise them as common, not Holy."
Just pointing out the contradiction there. Your a man with precepts. Don't we all have principles and morality however misguided we may be.

It would make more sense for you to have said, "such is against my personal principles". As one size doesn't fit all.



This format is difficult. The last thing I want to do is denigrate your relationship with God. honest.

Your not going to denigrate my relationship. But you may do so to someone younger that doesn't know any better.

It's been a pretty common theme here on this board, in my observation, when one consistently posts terms like "precepts of men" and or "traditions of man", that they usually have a beef with the church.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 09:14 PM
It's right next to the part that says "Gentiles shall keep My feasts"

haha. LOL. you're pretty good with that salt.

um, how does the BIble describe God's treatment of those who join Israel? You know, Ruth, etc....

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 09:20 PM
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a [mere] shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

So don't act as my judge. :)


See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Colossians 2:8

Is Torah the traditions of men? Yes or no?


The phrase "elementary principles of the world" is a translation of the Greek phrase "stoicheia tou kosmou" (pronounced "stoy - kay - ah - two - kos - moo."

The Greek word "kosmos", which is translated "world" is where we get our English word "cosmos". But the main idea behind this word is "any ordered system." A "kosmos" is any type of ordered system such as the stars and the planets. This is also where we get our word "cosmetics" which connotes the ordered system of a woman's face.

In Paul's discouse, the "stoicheia tou kosmou" are the rites and rituals that comprise the Mosaic Law as we see here in Galatians,

So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world [stoicheia tou kosmou]. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:3-5

You seem to be confusing several concepts here and taking quite a leap fit into your theological doctrine. I am willing to go into Galations, but first there is a stumbing block on a point you made earlier. You seem to allude that Torah is man made tradition. I need to know if you think Torah is man made or God breathed. Once we get that selttled, we can move on, but there is no profit in continuing until we are on the same page in context.

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 09:24 PM
haha. LOL. you're pretty good with that salt.

um, how does the BIble describe God's treatment of those who join Israel? You know, Ruth, etc....

Same way He described his relationship with all of us pre-Christ non-Israelites...we are no longer strangers and foreigners, without God or hope in the world. We become children of the covenant. For Ruth, Rahab, etc., that was children of the Old Covenant. For us now, that is children of the New Covenant.

Emanate
Apr 28th 2009, 09:38 PM
Same way He described his relationship with all of us pre-Christ non-Israelites...we are no longer strangers and foreigners, without God or hope in the world. We become children of the covenant. For Ruth, Rahab, etc., that was children of the Old Covenant. For us now, that is children of the New Covenant.


actually, it says covenants (plural to the layperson) of promise

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 09:38 PM
Colossians 2:16-17
“Therefore let no one act as your judge regarding eating or drinking or in respect to a
festival or a New Moon or a Sabbath, things which are a shadow of what is to come, and
the substance of which is found in Messiah” (Colossians 2:16).

When I understood that the substance (soma) or true meaning of the Biblical feasts is found in Messiah, I honored Him in them and what He has done, I honor both God's commandments, and the life of my Redeemer.

Understanding the context of Paul's writing to the Collossian believers makes more sense to me honoring God's commands rather than shunning them. If the non-Jewish Colissian believers were following the mandate handed down by the Jerusalem council, then it should be assumed they were honoring the Biblical Sabbath by attending the synagogue, and likewise honoring God's commands. In Colossians 2:8 Paul tells them , as you yourself pointed out to -

"See to it that no owne carries you off as a spoil through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world. rather than according to Messiah."

Paul is warning the Colossians not to be decieded by the false and vain philosophies if the heathen Greeks around them. This is evident because in Colossians 2:9 he writes:

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodliy form."

The Colossian believers were no douby being persuaded by those around them against the Deity of Messiah and Biblical practices. It makes a lot more sense to realize that Paul tells the Collossians, surrounded by heathen Greeks, not to let the heathen's judge them for honoring the Biblical holidays, dietary requirements, new moon festivals, and Sabbath. The Jerusalem council plainly ruled in Acts 15 that non-Jews coming to the faith were expected to go to the synagogue and learn Torah (as that's what was read every single week).

Yes, the Biblical feasts commemorate the events that occurred in Ancient Israel. But Paul adds another dimension to them in Collossians 2:17 - "the substance of which is found in Messiah", The true meaning and fulfillment of Sabbath, new moon and Biblical feasts are, as you no doubt know, is Messiah. The feasts explain the pattern of Messiah's life and the plan of redemption and His Second Coning.

keck553
Apr 28th 2009, 09:39 PM
actually, it says covenants (plural to the layperson) of promise

Uh oh................................

BroRog
Apr 28th 2009, 10:49 PM
So don't act as my judge. :)

I don't see where I have acted as anyone's judge?


Is Torah the traditions of men? Yes or no?


It depends on what you mean by "Torah". As the word has been used here in the last couple of months, I have no precise answer as to what is actually being said.

Paul is making the case that the rites and rituals of his own religion, which include the festivals, the Sabbaths, etc. are worthless.


You seem to be confusing several concepts here and taking quite a leap fit into your theological doctrine. I am willing to go into Galations, but first there is a stumbing block on a point you made earlier. You seem to allude that Torah is man made tradition. I need to know if you think Torah is man made or God breathed. Once we get that selttled, we can move on, but there is no profit in continuing until we are on the same page in context.

Again, we have been living with this vague definition for a couple of months now, which has gotten us very little in the way of understanding each other. What do you mean by 'Torah'?

Emanate
Apr 29th 2009, 02:42 AM
Paul is making the case that the rites and rituals of his own religion, which include the festivals, the Sabbaths, etc. are worthless.



That does make me wonder why Paul referred to Messiah as "our Passover" and goes on to say "therefore, let us keep the feast."

bagofseed
Apr 29th 2009, 02:49 AM
Exo (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=12#43) 12:43 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=12&verse=43)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover. No foreigner may share in eating it.

Dani H
Apr 29th 2009, 03:49 AM
When Paul walked into Jerusalem, there was still a temple there ... I wonder if he would have changed his tune seeing that temple being blown to bits? Because he understood that the temple was in fact, a spiritual reality, and the physical one served to demonstrate that fact. Until God decided the time for types and shadows was fully over, the transitional period was done, and He removed even that last little outward bit to fully implement the New and the realities of it.

I wonder what Paul would have written, and practiced, after 70 A.D. ?

For we all know in part, and we prophesy in part ... :)

Teke
Apr 29th 2009, 12:31 PM
Exo (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=12#43) 12:43 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=12&verse=43)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover. No foreigner may share in eating it.

This is part, with the Person of Christ, and the directive teaching of the Apostles to why the church doesn't give the body and blood of our Lord to people who are not baptized.

Emanate
Apr 29th 2009, 01:49 PM
Exo (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=12#43) 12:43 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=12&verse=43)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover. No foreigner may share in eating it.


Are Gentiles in Messiah still foreigners or strangers to the covenants of promise?

keck553
Apr 29th 2009, 03:50 PM
Exo (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Exo&chapter=12#43) 12:43 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Exo&chapter=12&verse=43)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover. No foreigner may share in eating it.

You're a foreigner to God's family?

bagofseed
Apr 30th 2009, 04:44 AM
Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=3#29) 3:29 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=3&verse=29)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.

manichunter
Apr 30th 2009, 12:53 PM
Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=3#29) 3:29 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=3&verse=29)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.

The promise proceeded the giving of the adoption of Israel because it had existed from the beginning. Remember the promise made to Eve after the fall prophesied in her descendant.

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 03:56 AM
So what is the verdict, what say you? Did Paul observe elements of the Torah after receiving Jesus as salvation?

Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.


1Co 11:1,2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:11&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) 1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:1&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


1Co 14:34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+14:34&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Ac 21:20-24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:24&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:20&sr=1&t=nas) And when they heard it they began glorifying (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1305)God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F479)there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1306)for the Law; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:21&sr=1&t=nas) and they have been told about you, that you are teaching (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1307)all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1308)to circumcise their children nor to walk (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F480)according to the (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1309)customs. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:22&sr=1&t=nas) "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:23&sr=1&t=nas) "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1310) (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F481)under a vow; 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:24&sr=1&t=nas)take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

I think it is a done deal. Paul was a torah observer.

Dani H
May 1st 2009, 04:05 AM
How many of the ordinances can you keep without a temple/tabernacle/priests?

Do we get to pick and choose?

Do we get to say what pointed to Christ and was fulfilled by Him and is done, and what wasn't?

I would highly appreciate it, among you Torah folks, if somebody (anybody, really) could give me a comprehensive list of which laws to keep, and why, and how, and provide me with examples from your own life (if that's not too much to ask). I would also like a comprehensive list of which not to keep, and why not.

Because I understand your point, which you've all made several dozen times over several dozen threads (not even I am that dense). I do. I really do. Now please, if you would be so kind, go ahead and back it up with specifics. I'm not being a smartypants here, I am really curious how that all plays itself out in day-to-day practice, and I've thought about this for a good long while now.

I'd also like to know specifically how you observe the sacrifices, and the various offerings (grain offerings, salt offerings, and so forth) as you go about your week (or year), and how you feel that God blesses that.

No Rabbinic extra-Biblical writings to back anything up please. Let's stick to the pure Word of God. :)

Thanks!

This might actually warrant its own thread now that I think of it ... we'll see how far this goes here first though.

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 04:11 AM
The promise proceeded the giving of the adoption of Israel because it had existed from the beginning. Remember the promise made to Eve after the fall prophesied in her descendant.
Yes the promise is separate from the law.

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 04:50 AM
How many of the ordinances can you keep without a temple/tabernacle/priests?

Do we get to pick and choose?

Do we get to say what pointed to Christ and was fulfilled by Him and is done, and what wasn't?

I would highly appreciate it, among you Torah folks, if somebody (anybody, really) could give me a comprehensive list of which laws to keep, and why, and how, and provide me with examples from your own life (if that's not too much to ask). I would also like a comprehensive list of which not to keep, and why not.

Because I understand your point, which you've all made several dozen times over several dozen threads (not even I am that dense). I do. I really do. Now please, if you would be so kind, go ahead and back it up with specifics. I'm not being a smartypants here, I am really curious how that all plays itself out in day-to-day practice, and I've thought about this for a good long while now.

I'd also like to know specifically how you observe the sacrifices, and the various offerings (grain offerings, salt offerings, and so forth) as you go about your week (or year), and how you feel that God blesses that.

No Rabbinic extra-Biblical writings to back anything up please. Let's stick to the pure Word of God. :)

Thanks!

This might actually warrant its own thread now that I think of it ... we'll see how far this goes here first though.


This is good advice that I hope you do not take the wrong way. Just because something is not easily understood or immediately grasp does give a person an excuse to dismiss it with human rationale as false or unworthy of investigation.

My daddy has said that nothing of extreme value is free and most of the times when we do get free things people do not appreciate it.

It has taken me 17 years to learn and understand the revelations I casually share.

Everyone has the opportunity to go deeper into the pure Word of God. Scripture say desire meat and study to show yourself approved. This is what I do. The word of God includes things like historical context, cultural context, character references, and the like. Most of these things yield patterns and emblems that are not casual seen without investigation and seeking truth by extreme measures.

I could tell you what is what, but would that translate into application on your part. No. It would take Yahweh Himself cutting on lights in a person's spirit man and it comes with a cost. A cost of security, surety, and comfort as a persons attacks stagnant traditions and learned behavior.

The truth of the matter is that the torah is not an all or nothing. It is broken down into the same fashions that our society tends to break down laws. That is why God uses terms like commandments, judgments, ordinances, and testimonies to make distinctions. The title is torah, but it is not the context. The context is broken down into various areas of focus and subject matters.

There are those ordinances that pertain to the ritual sacrifices that no longer point forward to Jesus, but now point beyond Jesus as the believers example of being a living sacrifice. No longer how to preform a burnt offering, but how to be a burnt offering towards God by manner of loving conduct and service.

It is like the thread I started about Paul comparing himself to be a drink offering. Paul was just not using an example for example sake. He was explaining how his conduct immulated the drink offering. This is lost knowledge to some christians. He was being literal not figurative. Also, I mentioned that he made a demand to keep the feast of Pentecost because of a vow, but not know what the vow was about. When just a little comprehensive knowledge of the feast of Pentecost would reveal that making a vow was a part of the feast.

I know this will make some mad. But here it goes. Our own doctrinal beliefs post 2nd century against the investigating, appreciating, and considering the torah has created blind spots such as this I have posted in several post.

If one was seeking to be honest, there would be no denying that something was afoot and unanswered regarding certain New Testament Scripture. The Text are often overlooked and explained away without the use of Scriptural proof. They are usually countered by doctrinal beliefs that are based on assumption and theory such as Jesus is our Sabbath. Jesus or Scripture have never said this or allude to it. Jesus actually said that He is Lord of the Sabbath as in ownership, not Moses, and that is was made for man, not Jews, but all man. Scripture actually says that there remains a Sabbath rest for man.............. but I digress.

The fact is this, Paul did things that seem to contradict alot of mainstream christian doctrinal beliefs regarding torah and its application. Each person is given the God-given opportunity to undergo an honest search or hold what they got. I cannot judge anyone either way, for we fall or stand to our God all by ourselves...............

Thanks for the correspondence.

RabbiKnife
May 1st 2009, 01:03 PM
This is good advice that I hope you do not take the wrong way. Just because something is not easily understood or immediately grasp does give a person an excuse to dismiss it with human rationale as false or unworthy of investigation.

My daddy has said that nothing of extreme value is free and most of the times when we do get free things people do not appreciate it.

It has taken me 17 years to learn and understand the revelations I casually share.

Everyone has the opportunity to go deeper into the pure Word of God. Scripture say desire meat and study to show yourself approved. This is what I do. The word of God includes things like historical context, cultural context, character references, and the like. Most of these things yield patterns and emblems that are not casual seen without investigation and seeking truth by extreme measures.

I could tell you what is what, but would that translate into application on your part. No. It would take Yahweh Himself cutting on lights in a person's spirit man and it comes with a cost. A cost of security, surety, and comfort as a persons attacks stagnant traditions and learned behavior.

The truth of the matter is that the torah is not an all or nothing. It is broken down into the same fashions that our society tends to break down laws. That is why God uses terms like commandments, judgments, ordinances, and testimonies to make distinctions. The title is torah, but it is not the context. The context is broken down into various areas of focus and subject matters.

There are those ordinances that pertain to the ritual sacrifices that no longer point forward to Jesus, but now point beyond Jesus as the believers example of being a living sacrifice. No longer how to preform a burnt offering, but how to be a burnt offering towards God by manner of loving conduct and service.

It is like the thread I started about Paul comparing himself to be a drink offering. Paul was just not using an example for example sake. He was explaining how his conduct immulated the drink offering. This is lost knowledge to some christians. He was being literal not figurative. Also, I mentioned that he made a demand to keep the feast of Pentecost because of a vow, but not know what the vow was about. When just a little comprehensive knowledge of the feast of Pentecost would reveal that making a vow was a part of the feast.

I know this will make some mad. But here it goes. Our own doctrinal beliefs post 2nd century against the investigating, appreciating, and considering the torah has created blind spots such as this I have posted in several post.

If one was seeking to be honest, there would be no denying that something was afoot and unanswered regarding certain New Testament Scripture. The Text are often overlooked and explained away without the use of Scriptural proof. They are usually countered by doctrinal beliefs that are based on assumption and theory such as Jesus is our Sabbath. Jesus or Scripture have never said this or allude to it. Jesus actually said that He is Lord of the Sabbath as in ownership, not Moses, and that is was made for man, not Jews, but all man. Scripture actually says that there remains a Sabbath rest for man.............. but I digress.

The fact is this, Paul did things that seem to contradict alot of mainstream christian doctrinal beliefs regarding torah and its application. Each person is given the God-given opportunity to undergo an honest search or hold what they got. I cannot judge anyone either way, for we fall or stand to our God all by ourselves...............

Thanks for the correspondence.

In other words,
1. I won't answer your question.
2. I don't know what the list of commandments I have to keep is.
3. If I have to explain it to you, then you don't get it because you are too carnally minded instead of being spiritually minded.
4. I spiritualize the parts of the Torah that I cannot keep and literally keep the one's physically that I want to keep.
5. I have a double-barrelled approach to biblical hermaneutics and interpretation that I have the right to apply to me while condemning/questionsing/being condenscending toward a "non-Torah keeper" who attempts to use a single hermaneutic.


Got it. Guess I don't keep the secret handshake and decoder ring either.

Teke
May 1st 2009, 02:15 PM
I know this will make some mad. But here it goes. Our own doctrinal beliefs post 2nd century against the investigating, appreciating, and considering the torah has created blind spots such as this I have posted in several post.

If one was seeking to be honest, there would be no denying that something was afoot and unanswered regarding certain New Testament Scripture. The Text are often overlooked and explained away without the use of Scriptural proof. They are usually countered by doctrinal beliefs that are based on assumption and theory such as Jesus is our Sabbath. Jesus or Scripture have never said this or allude to it.

This is gross misunderstanding. If you would be honest and study the fathers, you will find they did take all of scripture in the most serious of manner.

You are mistaken my friend. I've given examples before of early fathers and their "works" which included careful consideration of all of the scriptures, whether law or not. But their answer or response (meaning manifested works) was always in relating Christ. Because although their works can be seen in the law, that is not what they were to guide people to, but rather, they were to be leading people to Christ by the life they led.

So you have not made me "mad". But you have shown me that you haven't studied the subject much in the actual historical church. And while you may be able to cling to some excuse such as this or that which surrounds you and influences your thinking, I can tell you that you are without excuse and simply have not sought out that which fulfills all righteousness by faith. As seen in the witness of the church fathers.

Both before and after the 2nd century, the fathers observed all things according to Christ and Christ alone.

Peace be with you,
Eve

Dani H
May 1st 2009, 04:09 PM
This is good advice that I hope you do not take the wrong way. Just because something is not easily understood or immediately grasp does give a person an excuse to dismiss it with human rationale as false or unworthy of investigation.

My daddy has said that nothing of extreme value is free and most of the times when we do get free things people do not appreciate it.

It has taken me 17 years to learn and understand the revelations I casually share.

Everyone has the opportunity to go deeper into the pure Word of God. Scripture say desire meat and study to show yourself approved. This is what I do. The word of God includes things like historical context, cultural context, character references, and the like. Most of these things yield patterns and emblems that are not casual seen without investigation and seeking truth by extreme measures.

I could tell you what is what, but would that translate into application on your part. No. It would take Yahweh Himself cutting on lights in a person's spirit man and it comes with a cost. A cost of security, surety, and comfort as a persons attacks stagnant traditions and learned behavior.

The truth of the matter is that the torah is not an all or nothing. It is broken down into the same fashions that our society tends to break down laws. That is why God uses terms like commandments, judgments, ordinances, and testimonies to make distinctions. The title is torah, but it is not the context. The context is broken down into various areas of focus and subject matters.

There are those ordinances that pertain to the ritual sacrifices that no longer point forward to Jesus, but now point beyond Jesus as the believers example of being a living sacrifice. No longer how to preform a burnt offering, but how to be a burnt offering towards God by manner of loving conduct and service.

It is like the thread I started about Paul comparing himself to be a drink offering. Paul was just not using an example for example sake. He was explaining how his conduct immulated the drink offering. This is lost knowledge to some christians. He was being literal not figurative. Also, I mentioned that he made a demand to keep the feast of Pentecost because of a vow, but not know what the vow was about. When just a little comprehensive knowledge of the feast of Pentecost would reveal that making a vow was a part of the feast.

I know this will make some mad. But here it goes. Our own doctrinal beliefs post 2nd century against the investigating, appreciating, and considering the torah has created blind spots such as this I have posted in several post.

If one was seeking to be honest, there would be no denying that something was afoot and unanswered regarding certain New Testament Scripture. The Text are often overlooked and explained away without the use of Scriptural proof. They are usually countered by doctrinal beliefs that are based on assumption and theory such as Jesus is our Sabbath. Jesus or Scripture have never said this or allude to it. Jesus actually said that He is Lord of the Sabbath as in ownership, not Moses, and that is was made for man, not Jews, but all man. Scripture actually says that there remains a Sabbath rest for man.............. but I digress.

The fact is this, Paul did things that seem to contradict alot of mainstream christian doctrinal beliefs regarding torah and its application. Each person is given the God-given opportunity to undergo an honest search or hold what they got. I cannot judge anyone either way, for we fall or stand to our God all by ourselves...............

Thanks for the correspondence.

Yes, I'm absolutely asking you for nickel and dime explanation, because application is exactly the issue.

I have, in fact, already asked God that if there is this whole thing I'm missing, past my 17 years of knowing Him and being instructed by Him and being used by Him to dismantle the enemy's kingdom and seeing souls set free, that He would use you and others such as keck and emanate to do it.

If, as you say, I have blind spots and lack of understanding because the Jewish psyche is lost on me as a Gentile girl, then please do me a favor and cover the blind spots so I can live right. To do anything less would be to leave a sister in error when she is asking for truth. Sure, ultimately that is God's business to turn the lights on in people's spirits/souls, but I've already specifically asked Him to use you and others like you, right here on this board, to do it. Because y'all seem to have a firm grasp on things and seem to know something that I don't. And whatever truth you share, I will take straight to God, like I have the habit of doing, and will ask Him exactly how this is to be applied to my life as it is today.

Why?

Because God's Word, beyond being believed, is meant to be lived. So if I'm in disobedience due to wrong understanding then you've my full permission to enlighten me. In fact, I need you to do so because you see, my walk with my Savior, my Precious, my One and Only is at stake here. And my heart's desire is to please Him. And if I've missed Him all these years, in any way, then I deserve to know, thank you. Because I, too, understand about being poured out as an offering and about a price there is to be paid, as I have lived that and am still living it, and I do not take these things lightly.


And so yes, go right ahead. Please. :)


And I'm here to tell you, if it's all just a matter of us talking past one another, or splittling hairs over secondary matters, then we had best get on our faces before God and repent and learn how to communicate, because I think we have grieved Him, and one another, long enough.

mcgyver
May 1st 2009, 09:23 PM
Well, I'm not going to beat around the bush...so I'm just going to ask the question straight out...

Must a Christian hold to, and obey, the Torah?

manichunter
May 2nd 2009, 06:53 AM
Well, I'm not going to beat around the bush...so I'm just going to ask the question straight out...

Must a Christian hold to, and obey, the Torah?


The principles of the torah should be a guide for our acts of love, attitude, and spiritual culture within the Kingdom of God. We are told to keep the commandments if we love Him. A lot of us disagree on which commandments to obey and how they should be kept.

It is matter of a personal search and fellowship. If one wants more imtimate relationship with a person, they have to learn the culture of that person.

Hence, a Christians journey towards any investigation, respect, and observance must be discovered in a personal nature between them and Yahweh, the God of the Scriptural Culture of the Kingdom of God.

I can only speak for myself. I obey the principles of the torah and not the ritual. The rituals prove nothing to me. They are no different that any legalistic approach to Christianity that some saints practice today. I do not offer drink offerings, I try to be a drink offering for others, as Paul did. This requires that I understand the emblems of the drink offering and how they are applicable.

I observed the Holy Festivals as perpectual and still relative to future prophetic events about Jesus.

All this based on how I learned Christ in the last ten years............

Its a personal thing. It is up to our personal resolve to reconcile why Paul conducted himself in torah, but yet some claim he was done with it, which presents contradictions in Scripture.

slightlypuzzled
May 2nd 2009, 07:13 AM
The principles of the torah should be a guide for our acts of love, attitude, and spiritual culture within the Kingdom of God. We are told to keep the commandments if we love Him. A lot of us disagree on which commandments to obey and how they should be kept.

It is matter of a personal search and fellowship. If one wants more imtimate relationship with a person, they have to learn the culture of that person.

Hence, a Christians journey towards any investigation, respect, and observance must be discovered in a personal nature between them and Yahweh, the God of the Scriptural Culture of the Kingdom of God.

I can only speak for myself. I obey the principles of the torah and not the ritual. The rituals prove nothing to me. They are no different that any legalistic approach to Christianity that some saints practice today. I do not offer drink offerings, I try to be a drink offering for others, as Paul did. This requires that I understand the emblems of the drink offering and how they are applicable.

I observed the Holy Festivals as perpectual and still relative to future prophetic events about Jesus.

All this based on how I learned Christ in the last ten years............

Its a personal thing. It is up to our personal resolve to reconcile why Paul conducted himself in torah, but yet some claim he was done with it, which presents contradictions in Scripture.

I learned Christ in the context of His love for me:
Romans 5: 6For while we were still helpless,
at the right time Christ died for the ungodly

Romans 5: 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.

God took the first steps in preparing me to see His love through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I see that He wanted the relationship, and went looking for me and built that bridge and bond on His own initiative. Paul has pointed out how we grow:

Romans 5: 1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Paul points out that our lives are a way of growing in Him if we can persevere, but it is not just simple minded perseverance. It is knowing that we stand as continual recipients of God's grace, and the continual application of this grace as we live our lives before Him helps us to grow stronger in our lives, We exult or rejoice in our daily lives because we know that we know have a hope in God's glory, a hope that does not disappoint us because we have see in His love in the death and resurrection of His own dearly loved Son. I honestly believe this is the basis of any Christian Culture, since it must be based on that ultimate grace of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have grown to see God through this way, by living in this place of grace that He has made for me.

Walstib
May 2nd 2009, 11:11 AM
It is up to our personal resolve to reconcile why Paul conducted himself in torah, but yet some claim he was done with it, which presents contradictions in Scripture.

Now to make sure, when you say "conducted himself in torah", you mean he applied the precepts found within the scriptures at that time and nature to his daily life. And this within the context of his freedom from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8 stuff.) ?

manichunter
May 2nd 2009, 01:36 PM
Now to make sure, when you say "conducted himself in torah", you mean he applied the precepts found within the scriptures at that time and nature to his daily life. And this within the context of his freedom from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8 stuff.) ?

Yes............ He knew that the power was supplied by the Spirit, that the rituals were just symbols for the human heart.

As far freedom from the law of sin and death, this is indeed true that the devil cannot hold us hostile unless we volunteer. Now it is up to us to reflect this by being holy as he was holy.............

You would be suprise that some choose to live under the curse that they no longer have to be subject to.............


As far as Paul is concern again. I was trying to point out that he did them and believers should investigate why, instead of accepting traditional answers that do not explain what is an apparent contradiction between him telling us that they were dead, but yet he did some of them and qouted them for references as recorded by Scripture.

Vhayes
May 2nd 2009, 01:56 PM
Mani - please read the verses below.

Paul did not have to BECOME a Jew - he WAS a Jew - but he followed the rituals now and again to REACH the Jews. THAT'S the reason.

I Corinthians 9
19 - For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 - To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 - to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 - To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23 - I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Walstib
May 2nd 2009, 02:18 PM
Yes............ He knew that the power was supplied by the Spirit, that the rituals were just symbols for the human heart.

Well then it seems to me many are just not hearing what you are saying because this is in line with what I understand. I would find it very odd that someone would argue Paul did not teach from the scriptures. That I know of I am yet to meet someone who says there is no use for the OT in regards to bible study and finding God's precepts. I just can't figure out who these people are you talk about who think it was "done away with". :dunno:

As far freedom from the law of sin and death, this is indeed true that the devil cannot hold us hostile unless we volunteer. Now it is up to us to reflect this by being holy as he was holy.............
Someone once told me they thought the flesh can get us into enough trouble without any help from the enemy and I tend to agree. There is no law against the things of the spirit. ;)

You would be suprise that some choose to live under the curse that they no longer have to be subject to.............
Seems like that is a common accusation against you. :P Legalism is not restricted to any one "camp". I mean, you can legalistically tell people they can't be legalistic. ;)

As far as Paul is concern again. I was trying to point out that he did them and believers should investigate why, instead of accepting traditional answers that do not explain what is an apparent contradiction between him telling us that they were dead, but yet he did some of them and qouted them for references as recorded by Scripture.

I trust you are not trying to call Paul's apostleship into question. I guess I should consider myself fortunate I have never seen this tradition you speak of. I would suggest that maybe you are misunderstanding others as much as they may be misunderstanding you. What would you say is the "traditional answer" ..... "dead to the law"(Rom7:4) is not the same as saying "the law is dead".


The funny thing I think about all this is that someone else started a thread on how the NT truths are backed up by the OT a week or two ago. I am not sure it got more than one or two responses but you use the word torah and what are we on page 6 here. :saint:

Peace,
Joe

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 02:50 PM
Well then it seems to me many are just not hearing what you are saying because this is in line with what I understand. I would find it very odd that someone would argue Paul did not teach from the scriptures. That I know of I am yet to meet someone who says there is no use for the OT in regards to bible study and finding God's precepts. I just can't figure out who these people are you talk about who think it was "done away with". :dunno:

Someone once told me they thought the flesh can get us into enough trouble without any help from the enemy and I tend to agree. There is no law against the things of the spirit. ;)

Seems like that is a common accusation against you. :P Legalism is not restricted to any one "camp". I mean, you can legalistically tell people they can't be legalistic. ;)


I trust you are not trying to call Paul's apostleship into question. I guess I should consider myself fortunate I have never seen this tradition you speak of. I would suggest that maybe you are misunderstanding others as much as they may be misunderstanding you. What would you say is the "traditional answer" ..... "dead to the law"(Rom7:4) is not the same as saying "the law is dead".


The funny thing I think about all this is that someone else started a thread on how the NT truths are backed up by the OT a week or two ago. I am not sure it got more than one or two responses but you use the word torah and what are we on page 6 here. :saint:

Peace,
Joe

The key point in the following scripture is not saying that the law no longer exists but for those that believe it does not apply.

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

If we do not believe then the law stands.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 2nd 2009, 04:30 PM
Acts 18
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.


Paul was preaching a message of Jesus, contrary to the law. I assure you that any feast in Jerusalem that he was to keep was just another opportunity to present the gospel & he would not be well received. Just like the law-keepers in this forum do not except Jesus.
Try as you might to mix the law and Jesus. You are dead wrong!

Walstib
May 2nd 2009, 05:43 PM
The key point in the following scripture is not saying that the law no longer exists but for those that believe it does not apply.

Rom 10:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

If we do not believe then the law stands.

Hi FF,

For righteousness before God sure. "Happy they whose lawlessnesses were pardoned and whose sins were covered over! (Rom 4:7 CLV)" I think when Jesus talks about asking our Father to forgive our trespasses that in itself should show there is still something to trespass. I don't think we need the Mosaic law to point at sin. Shown by there being sin before Sinai.

Ever notice how the translators have done their best to capitalize the word law when it applies to the book of the law specifically and leave it small case for law that is not specifically Mosaic law? Differs with different translations even as it is something to be discerned from context. A few places Paul does say "the book of the law" to be clear but not always. One reason I don't think the word torah does any good to help discern things when it is used for any and all law, as well as specifically the book of the law.

Where I am going with this is I see a problem with your conclusion. It could sound the way you have it worded that unbelievers, gentiles included, are bound to the Mosaic law. I am pretty sure this is not what you mean. :)

If law in your verse refers not to the Mosaic law but to the universal law, given moment by moment through the Holy Spirit, then it is the condemnation that ends and not the law itself. The "not specifically Mosaic law" can still stand for the believer and the unbeliever but with believers having an advocate in Jesus the condemnation for our trespasses is gone.

Our own passover lamb to tie the theme of the OT giving light to the NT into my conclusion. ;)

Peace,
Joe


How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.(Psa 32:2-3 NASB)

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:17-18 NASB)

manichunter
May 3rd 2009, 02:11 AM
Someone once told me they thought the flesh can get us into enough trouble without any help from the enemy and I tend to agree. There is no law against the things of the spirit. ;)

Seems like that is a common accusation against you. :P Legalism is not restricted to any one "camp". I mean, you can legalistically tell people they can't be legalistic. ;)


I trust you are not trying to call Paul's apostleship into question. I guess I should consider myself fortunate I have never seen this tradition you speak of. I would suggest that maybe you are misunderstanding others as much as they may be misunderstanding you. What would you say is the "traditional answer" ..... "dead to the law"(Rom7:4) is not the same as saying "the law is dead".

Peace,
Joe


I hear you Joe. I seemingly hate legalism. I am naturally against being subjected to rules that imply proof of salvation and such.

Thanks for the insight.

BHS
May 3rd 2009, 08:39 PM
Acts 18
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.


Paul was preaching a message of Jesus, contrary to the law. I assure you that any feast in Jerusalem that he was to keep was just another opportunity to present the gospel & he would not be well received. Just like the law-keepers in this forum do not except Jesus.
Try as you might to mix the law and Jesus. You are dead wrong!

Embankmentlb,

I think you need to read the Scripture more carefully. Accusations do not necessarily present truth, just as Jesus suffered from accusations from some of His Jewish brethren. I agree that going to the synagogues were opportunities to teach, but it is not all together true that Paul was not well received. Actually the messianic Jews in the 1st century had favor with their Jewish brethren until a few would enter to stir up trouble.

Take the Scriptures in Acts for example -- the some of the Thessalonian Jews were a few who stirred up trouble.

Acts 13:43-45
Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

Note "many Jews" in v. 44 vs. "the Jews" in v. 45

Acts 17:10-13
And the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea; and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. 13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica found out that the word of God had been proclaimed by Paul in Berea also, they came there likewise, agitating and stirring up the crowds.

Again "the Jews of Thessalonica" are found here in contrast to the noble-minded, who wisely searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true.


Just like the law-keepers in this forum do not except Jesus.
Try as you might to mix the law and Jesus. You are dead wrong!

That is far from the truth. Which one of us does not except Jesus, to whom the Torah points? Jesus, Himself kept the "law", following in the commandments of His Father. The poor translation in Colossians that says "Jesus is the end of the law" is better translated "Jesus is the goal of the law." Any honest NT scholar would agree.

Blessings,
BHS

manichunter
May 3rd 2009, 10:14 PM
Acts 18
12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
13 Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law.


Paul was preaching a message of Jesus, contrary to the law. I assure you that any feast in Jerusalem that he was to keep was just another opportunity to present the gospel & he would not be well received. Just like the law-keepers in this forum do not except Jesus.
Try as you might to mix the law and Jesus. You are dead wrong!

I am not trying to mix Jesus with the law. I am referring to Jesus and His commandments.

In reference to Acts 18
14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:14&sr=1&t=nas) But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, "If it were a matter of wrong or of vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you; 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:15&sr=1&t=nas) but if there are questions about words and names and your own law, look after it yourselves; I am unwilling to be a judge of these matters." 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:16&sr=1&t=nas) And he drove them away from the = (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R1108)judgment seat. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:17&sr=1&t=nas) And they all took hold of Sosthenes, the leader of the synagogue, and began beating him in front of the judgment seat.


Paul was about to defend himself, but was not given the chance. However, how can you refute Paul's actions in Acts 21

23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:23&sr=1&t=nas) "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:24&sr=1&t=nas) take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Here he has a chance to prove himself and what he believes after the text you provide. I wonder what Paul would have said in Acts 18. We should be able to tell by what he did in Acts 21 which took place after Acts 18.

The bottom line is that torah is not understood. Most call it law without understanding that it is so much more than a legal code of rules. The Scripture in the NC speaks of multiple laws and in different fashions. We believe to broadly about torah without critical thinking and analysis.

A careful and personal study would reveal that it is not a law in specific, but an intimate covenant vow the people of Israel personally repeated and entered into by their own personal volution...... It was not mandatory for the sake of salvation, justification, or goodness, but showed hope for the promises of the covenant and the person who offered the Covenants, Jesus.......

embankmentlb
May 3rd 2009, 11:51 PM
Paul at Jerusalem

15After these days we got ready and (AB)started on our way up to Jerusalem.
16Some of (AC)the disciples from (AD)Caesarea also came with us, taking us to Mnason of (AE)Cyprus, a (AF)disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge.
Acts 21
17After we arrived in Jerusalem, (AG)the brethren received us gladly.

18And the following day Paul went in with us to (AH)James, and all (AI)the elders were present.

19After he had greeted them, he (AJ)began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his (AK)ministry.

20And when they heard it they began (AL)glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all (AM)zealous for the Law;

21and they have been told about you, that you are (AN)teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them (AO)not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to (AP)the customs.


Once again you have taken the scripture out of context to support your argument.
Peter knew Paul would never get an audience among the Jews because of his reputation. Paul & the 4 chosen men shaved their heads & so forth only so he could be permitted to make his case for Jesus to the Jews of Jerusalem.

One more point. If Jesus teachings & the Law are so intertwined, as you claim, why do you suppose the Jews are so anti Jesus & anti Paul? Why not just except the Jesus fellow & forgo all the problems that are the NT? Answer, Because Jesus & the law, OT, the thora, that seems so important, have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 12:01 AM
Paul at Jerusalem

15After these days we got ready and (AB)started on our way up to Jerusalem.
16Some of (AC)the disciples from (AD)Caesarea also came with us, taking us to Mnason of (AE)Cyprus, a (AF)disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge.
Acts 21
17After we arrived in Jerusalem, (AG)the brethren received us gladly.

18And the following day Paul went in with us to (AH)James, and all (AI)the elders were present.

19After he had greeted them, he (AJ)began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his (AK)ministry.

20And when they heard it they began (AL)glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all (AM)zealous for the Law;

21and they have been told about you, that you are (AN)teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them (AO)not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to (AP)the customs.


Once again you have taken the scripture out of context to support your argument.
Peter knew Paul would never get an audience among the Jews because of his reputation. Paul & the 4 chosen men shaved their heads & so forth only so he could be permitted to make his case for Jesus to the Jews of Jerusalem.

One more point. If Jesus teachings & the Law are so intertwined, as you claim, why do you suppose the Jews are so anti Jesus & anti Paul? Why not just except the Jesus fellow & forgo all the problems that are the NT? Answer, Because Jesus & the law, OT, the thora, that seems so important, have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Peter was not involved in the dialogue in this matter (it was James, Jesus' brother). Plus they asked Paul to prove something by his actions as clearly demonstrated. They asked him to prove that he was abiding by torah and he said okay by his actions....... What is taken out of context here. We have a suggestion put to Paul and we have Paul following the suggestion. The suggestion was according to torah, plus Paul came because he had a vow to keep according to torah.

embankmentlb
May 4th 2009, 12:56 AM
Yes, Paul did Keep his vow as a Jew, but the critical matter here is that the Gentile followers (us) are under no such obligations. Most any Bible will take Acts 21 & refer you to Romans chapter 14 & Galatians 2:3. In both cases the point is made that observing customs of the Jews is OK if done not to create a stumbling block to the other (weak) person. As Paul was doing here. The law is not mandatory for Jew or Gen.

Walstib
May 4th 2009, 03:02 AM
Here he has a chance to prove himself and what he believes after the text you provide. I wonder what Paul would have said in Acts 18. We should be able to tell by what he did in Acts 21 which took place after Acts 18.

I was thinking that Acts 26 may give some insight as it was when He finally got the chance to finish what he wanted to say without being interrupted like he was in Acts 18 and 23. I am not sure I agree with your assessment as Gentiles are not included in the context of Paul's actions in Acts 21. This would not be a full Gospel message then.


"So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles." (Act 26:22-23 NASB)Here we have a full Gospel message speaking of something the Jesus was the first to proclaim, not a custom of Paul's forefathers like he followed in Acts 12.


After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, "Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.(Act 28:17 NASB)
The bottom line is that torah is not understood.
By anyone? ;)

Most call it law without understanding that it is so much more than a legal code of rules.
I can understand you use the word that way.

The Scripture in the NC speaks of multiple laws and in different fashions. We believe to broadly about torah without critical thinking and analysis.
I think I understand you here and agree. The written law given through Moses is not the only law, earthly or spiritual. At the same time I did not understand any of this when I came to believe Jesus was Lord, nor did I need to. I just knew I was guilty.

A careful and personal study would reveal that it is not a law in specific, but an intimate covenant vow the people of Israel personally repeated and entered into by their own personal volution...... It was not mandatory for the sake of salvation, justification, or goodness, but showed hope for the promises of the covenant and the person who offered the Covenants, Jesus....... What about the people before Abraham.... Like Enoch? Did he not have some sort of intimate relationship with an acknowledgment of things it would be good that he did not do. That would be missing the mark and considered sinful. Sounds to me like Torah is even bigger than you are giving it credit here. :)

Peace,
Joe

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 03:58 AM
What about the people before Abraham.... Like Enoch? Did he not have some sort of intimate relationship with an acknowledgment of things it would be good that he did not do. That would be missing the mark and considered sinful. Sounds to me like Torah is even bigger than you are giving it credit here. :)

Peace,
Joe

That is why from Adam to include Enoch observed elements of the torah like the sacrifices they commissioned.

I never said Torah was mandatory. It was voluntary............ and still is...............(not directed towards you brother Joe)

It is big, for it describes the ways of God, how God is holy............... and worthy to be praise.

slightlypuzzled
May 4th 2009, 04:00 AM
That is far from the truth. Which one of us does not except Jesus, to whom the Torah points? Jesus, Himself kept the "law", following in the commandments of His Father. The poor translation in Colossians that says "Jesus is the end of the law" is better translated "Jesus is the goal of the law." Any honest NT scholar would agree.



Before I reply, do you mean Romans 10:
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

embankmentlb
May 4th 2009, 11:51 AM
The irony of this entire tread lies in the following verses.

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem

1(A)Some men came down from Judea and began teaching (B)the brethren, "Unless you are (C)circumcised according to (D)the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and (E)debate with them, (F)the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the (G)apostles and elders concerning this issue.
5But some of (N)the sect of the (O)Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to (P)circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

6(Q)The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
8"And God, (U)who knows the heart, testified to them (V)giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and (W)He made no distinction between us and them, (X)cleansing their hearts by faith.
27"Therefore we have sent (BF)Judas and (BG)Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28"For (BH)it seemed good to (BI)the Holy Spirit and to (BJ)us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:

29that you abstain from (BK)things sacrificed to idols and from (BL)blood and from (BM)things strangled and from (BN)fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

The purpose of Paul's trip to Jerusalem was to reinforce what was written in the letter Acts15 23-29 that states the Gentiles are under NO obligation to the laws of Moses or the traditions of the Jews.

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 12:26 PM
The irony of this entire tread lies in the following verses.

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem

1(A)Some men came down from Judea and began teaching (B)the brethren, "Unless you are (C)circumcised according to (D)the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and (E)debate with them, (F)the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the (G)apostles and elders concerning this issue.
5But some of (N)the sect of the (O)Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to (P)circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

6(Q)The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
8"And God, (U)who knows the heart, testified to them (V)giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and (W)He made no distinction between us and them, (X)cleansing their hearts by faith.
27"Therefore we have sent (BF)Judas and (BG)Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28"For (BH)it seemed good to (BI)the Holy Spirit and to (BJ)us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:

29that you abstain from (BK)things sacrificed to idols and from (BL)blood and from (BM)things strangled and from (BN)fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

The purpose of Paul's trip to Jerusalem was to reinforce what was written in the letter Acts15 23-29 that states the Gentiles are under NO obligation to the laws of Moses or the traditions of the Jews.

Not true, Paul said differently in Acts 18, 19, and 20. He said as I stated in the OP that he desperately wanted to keep the upcoming Feast of Pentecost.

He made more than one trip to Jerusalem, sir. This particular one is separate from the one you mentioned.

embankmentlb
May 4th 2009, 12:40 PM
Acts 15-> 22 all deal with this one issue. Jewish Christians trying to put Gentile Christians under the law & traditions of the Jews. The ONE message of these chapters is that WE are NOT under any obligations to the LAW or TRADITIONS of the jews.

I just gave you clear verses that directly address that Paul says that Gentiles are under no obligations to the laws & traditions of the Jews & yet again you choose to ignore them. It's funny, you were trying to use this story to justify your law keeping yet the word once again proves the opposite.
This Torah business is in total error when it comes to the scriptures.

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 02:29 PM
Acts 15-> 22 all deal with this one issue. Jewish Christians trying to put Gentile Christians under the law & traditions of the Jews. The ONE message of these chapters is that WE are NOT under any obligations to the LAW or TRADITIONS of the jews.

I just gave you clear verses that directly address that Paul says that Gentiles are under no obligations to the laws & traditions of the Jews & yet again you choose to ignore them. It's funny, you were trying to use this story to justify your law keeping yet the word once again proves the opposite.
This Torah business is in total error when it comes to the scriptures.


I mean this.................
Ac 18:19- 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

This is the reason Paul gave and you cannot refute it. I am aware of the issue you speak of. It was an ongoing issue, but it was not the driving issue behind Paul's travels. Paul driving issue was the gospel and him respecting God's will. Paul ran into the other issue because of the Judiazers (some of the former jewish religious leaders trying to convert gentiles to judiaism first then christianity), he did not run with it.

And why do you think I am saying this, when I am not......... Observing any fashion of torah is not mandatory, if you choose to disregard it then that is your personal perogative and no one on this green planet can condemn you for not doing so. So why bother arguing the issue when it is not heresy for me to respect torah and I cannot condemn you for not observing it.

Let each one of us stand or fall according to our knowledge.

Vhayes
May 4th 2009, 02:38 PM
Mani, what did Paul mean when he said to the Jews he BECAME a Jew?
V

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 03:05 PM
Mani, what did Paul mean when he said to the Jews he BECAME a Jew?
V

It means the same as when you come to my house and I ask that you take off your shoes in my house, you respect the customs in my house by taking off your shoes if you desire to come in. However, if you have a personal problem against taking off your shoes in a house, then you respect the custom of the house by not coming in.

Now, the extreme, if I was a Hindu and I had a shrine of to Kali in my foyer and I asked all house guest to kiss it when they came into my house. What would you do.

You are never excused from violating personal convictions and then comprosing and sinning to accomodate anothers customs.

Paul has been abused by this Scripture. Paul never stopped being himself or compromised his convictions in order to advance the gospel. He merely accomadated as much as possible to make others comfortable around him as he tried to relate to him. There is no example in Scripture where Paul sins in regards to hiding or disrespecting his convictions.

To be a gentile to a gentile could simply do as Paul did when he talked to the Greeks Athens in regards to their gods as recorded in Acts. He had knowledge of their demi-gods and converse with them, then took an opportunity to advance the gospel. In the times of Paul, a Jew could not even go into the house of a Gentile without defiling themselves (of course this was a man made rule). Paul did not respect this man made rule regarding gentile households.

Vhayes
May 4th 2009, 03:08 PM
mani, Paul was already a Jew. He didn't have to become one.

He went to temple to preach the gospel. He celebrated feasts to reach his Jewish brethren with the good news that is Christ Jesus. He BECAME a Jew that some might be saved.

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 03:20 PM
mani, Paul was already a Jew. He didn't have to become one.

He went to temple to preach the gospel. He celebrated feasts to reach his Jewish brethren with the good news that is Christ Jesus. He BECAME a Jew that some might be saved.

From your first statement, I am confused, how can one become something when he is already one. It was because he was not talking about race, but customs and world views.

I said that he was an Israelite, which technically is not a Jew. A Jew was a person from the tribe of Judah. It was a name given to them from Babylonian origins. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, hence a Benjamite.

Are you saying that he only kept the Festival of Pentecost in an attempt to preach the gospel to convert the Jews? Are you saying that he was not keeping it because of his own personal convictions as well.

If he celebrate a feast, I believe he did so because he wanted to do it without any other motive. He did not do so to preach the gospel, eventhough he took every opportunity to do such.

That would be like me going to a hip hop club to preach the gospel. It would be a violation of my convictions unless I had no convictions about going there. And yet, it could still be sin even if I am unconscious of it being a wrong action.

Vhayes
May 4th 2009, 03:27 PM
From your first statement, I am confused, how can one become something when he is already one. It was because he was not talking about race, but customs and world views.

I said that he was an Israelite, which technically is not a Jew. A Jew was a person from the tribe of Judah. It was a name given to them from Babylonian origins. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, hence a Benjamite.

Are you saying that he only kept the Festival of Pentecost in an attempt to preach the gospel to convert the Jews? Are you saying that he was not keeping it because of his own personal convictions as well.

If he celebrate a feast, I believe he did so because he wanted to do it without any other motive. He did not do so to preach the gospel, eventhough he took every opportunity to do such.

That would be like me going to a hip hop club to preach the gospel. It would be a violation of my convictions unless I had no convictions about going there. And yet, it could still be sin even if I am unconscious of it being a wrong action.
Yes Mani that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. He used the feast to demonstrate to his fellow Jews/Israelites/Hebrews/Tribe WHO Christ is and was.

He used the law as a TUTOR. To lead his brethren by blood to Christ. he could use the very thing they were honoring to show them where the true honor belonged.

manichunter
May 4th 2009, 03:31 PM
Yes Mani that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. He used the feast to demonstrate to his fellow Jews/Israelites/Hebrews/Tribe WHO Christ is and was.

He used the law as a TUTOR. To lead his brethren by blood to Christ. he could use the very thing they were honoring to show them where the true honor belonged.


Yes, but he was still there for his own personal reasons of worship towards Yahweh. He kept the feast for personal reasons as well, not just to take advantage of an opportunity. He would not have done all that James suggested if that was the case.

embankmentlb
May 4th 2009, 05:24 PM
1 Corinthians 9

19 For though I (Paul) am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I(Paul) may win more(folks for Jesus).

20 To the Jews I(Paul) became as a Jew, so that I(Paul) might win Jews(for Jesus); to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though NOT being MYSELF (Paul)under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;


Yet another scripture to be ignored....

BHS
May 4th 2009, 10:23 PM
Before I reply, do you mean Romans 10:
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Sorry, you are correct. I did not look up the reference, yet any translation using the word "end" is definitely misleading.

Blessings,
BHS

Dani H
May 5th 2009, 02:50 AM
I consider the Law to be the verbal expression of God's nature and principles by which He governs things. That, to me, is Torah. And the festivals, individually, serve as reminders of that, and consistent days throughout the year (including Sabbath) for people to get a chance to ponder their doings, pay attention to God, find forgiveness, and a new resolve to do things God's way.

I'm certainly not against God's commandments (how can I? I'm His child), but I think that in Christ, the focus goes well beyond these individual things that people were required to keep. It's a position to not only elevate us to the original design (that of man in unbroken fellowship with God) but also to be allowed such close fellowship with His nature, which is holy, that nobody who has ever truly seen God and tasted Him that way, should even think about consciously violating His nature and that new position afforded to us, but press on instead to lay hold of that which Christ purchased for us, in toto.

Which is why I think Paul calls the Law our tutor. It first introduces us to the concept of a holy God and in its light we can immediately see where we fall short of even just the first commandment (because no person who has been brought up in a sinful environment and taught worldly concepts is able to love God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength on a continuous basis, 24/7; many aren't even aware of His existence). Then you toss in the other 9 and the summary of it that Jesus gives (which is those 9, except far more encompassing) to love our neighbors as ourselves, and then you have a situation on your hand that, without Christ, who perfectly did those things and lived them (and testified of that Himself), we have no chance of pleasing a holy God without consistently tripping ourselves up, because sin is always lurking and temptation is always around the corner.

It isn't the healthy who need a physician but those who are sick, no?

I do believe that in Christ, festival keeping and day keeping is completely optional. Because the essence of it, which is the pointing to the holiness of God, is what we need to take away from them, and live that out on a daily basis, by the Holy Spirit given to us. Which is why Hebrews exhorts us to not fall away, not shrink back, pay attention, don't harden our hearts, listen to God speaking to us through Jesus, because those who know better, and reject Him and His blood for that of bulls and goats, and go backwards instead of forward, have harsher judgment coming their way than those who didn't believe and know to begin with. The blood of the New Covenant speaks! Woe to them who would trample it underfoot and seek to replace it with that which God no longer recognizes! Hebrews is a strong exhortation to never go back to mere outward observance, which were those shadows pointing to Jesus, but to lay hold of the real deal, which is Christ, rely on His blood, depend on His Person, embrace Him fully, and never look back. And I think that God drove the point home when the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. God provided us with supreme salvation; we simply cannot afford to shrink back and look elsewhere, because there is only name by which we can be saved, and that is Jesus. We have a better covenant. The Old lays the foundation of that; but it doesn't touch the New; as Jesus had not been born then. Now that He is, God's salvation is complete, and there will never be another way again. The temple is now the body of Christ, and if anyone defiles that temple, God will deal with them. Do we not know that we are the temple of God and that the Spirit, the very presence and essence and power of God, resides in our midst, within us, even, and we are one Spirit with the Lord? The veil is gone, the wall of division has been removed, and will never exist again, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ Jesus? So why draw dividing lines again? Why bother with these things?

Manichunter, brother, I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is all this Jewish terminology being used all the time, making us look back to a concept that is foreign to so many, as if salvation can be found in it or even expressed through it, when the essence and reality of these things is in one Man, Jesus Christ, who desires all to be saved and become one in Him, in reality and essence, grace and truth.

Honestly, I pray the temple in Jerusalem is never rebuilt. I fear for the souls of many believers who may become enamored by types and shadows all over again, and who will shrink back and be tempted to search out those things because they think that it will have anything to do with their salvation. I do really believe that Ezekiel speaks of a temple not made by human hands, because there is only one blood of sprinkling; and that is the blood of Jesus Himself, which will not be shed a second time because it is finished.

BHS
May 5th 2009, 11:41 AM
I consider the Law to be the verbal expression of God's nature and principles by which He governs things. That, to me, is Torah. And the festivals, individually, serve as reminders of that, and consistent days throughout the year (including Sabbath) for people to get a chance to ponder their doings, pay attention to God, find forgiveness, and a new resolve to do things God's way.

I'm certainly not against God's commandments (how can I? I'm His child), but I think that in Christ, the focus goes well beyond these individual things that people were required to keep. It's a position to not only elevate us to the original design (that of man in unbroken fellowship with God) but also to be allowed such close fellowship with His nature, which is holy, that nobody who has ever truly seen God and tasted Him that way, should even think about consciously violating His nature and that new position afforded to us, but press on instead to lay hold of that which Christ purchased for us, in toto.

Which is why I think Paul calls the Law our tutor. It first introduces us to the concept of a holy God and in its light we can immediately see where we fall short of even just the first commandment (because no person who has been brought up in a sinful environment and taught worldly concepts is able to love God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength on a continuous basis, 24/7; many aren't even aware of His existence). Then you toss in the other 9 and the summary of it that Jesus gives (which is those 9, except far more encompassing) to love our neighbors as ourselves, and then you have a situation on your hand that, without Christ, who perfectly did those things and lived them (and testified of that Himself), we have no chance of pleasing a holy God without consistently tripping ourselves up, because sin is always lurking and temptation is always around the corner.

It isn't the healthy who need a physician but those who are sick, no?

I do believe that in Christ, festival keeping and day keeping is completely optional. Because the essence of it, which is the pointing to the holiness of God, is what we need to take away from them, and live that out on a daily basis, by the Holy Spirit given to us. Which is why Hebrews exhorts us to not fall away, not shrink back, pay attention, don't harden our hearts, listen to God speaking to us through Jesus, because those who know better, and reject Him and His blood for that of bulls and goats, and go backwards instead of forward, have harsher judgment coming their way than those who didn't believe and know to begin with. The blood of the New Covenant speaks! Woe to them who would trample it underfoot and seek to replace it with that which God no longer recognizes! Hebrews is a strong exhortation to never go back to mere outward observance, which were those shadows pointing to Jesus, but to lay hold of the real deal, which is Christ, rely on His blood, depend on His Person, embrace Him fully, and never look back. And I think that God drove the point home when the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. God provided us with supreme salvation; we simply cannot afford to shrink back and look elsewhere, because there is only name by which we can be saved, and that is Jesus. We have a better covenant. The Old lays the foundation of that; but it doesn't touch the New; as Jesus had not been born then. Now that He is, God's salvation is complete, and there will never be another way again. The temple is now the body of Christ, and if anyone defiles that temple, God will deal with them. Do we not know that we are the temple of God and that the Spirit, the very presence and essence and power of God, resides in our midst, within us, even, and we are one Spirit with the Lord? The veil is gone, the wall of division has been removed, and will never exist again, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ Jesus? So why draw dividing lines again? Why bother with these things?

Manichunter, brother, I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is all this Jewish terminology being used all the time, making us look back to a concept that is foreign to so many, as if salvation can be found in it or even expressed through it, when the essence and reality of these things is in one Man, Jesus Christ, who desires all to be saved and become one in Him, in reality and essence, grace and truth.

Honestly, I pray the temple in Jerusalem is never rebuilt. I fear for the souls of many believers who may become enamored by types and shadows all over again, and who will shrink back and be tempted to search out those things because they think that it will have anything to do with their salvation. I do really believe that Ezekiel speaks of a temple not made by human hands, because there is only one blood of sprinkling; and that is the blood of Jesus Himself, which will not be shed a second time because it is finished.

I will let Manichunter reply to your post in detail. In summary, I would say I agree that it is important to do things God's way. Doing things His way is a major theme of the whole Tanach (OT).

God has always met with His People 24/7, but the feasts and festivals were special appointed times. It is woe to them that trample upon grace, which is not what believing that God still recognizes the Torah does. The Torah's goal was to teach grace.

Neither is salvation new -- Jesus provided salvation from the beginning of creation to the end of time.

Blessings,
BHS

Teke
May 5th 2009, 01:22 PM
Sorry, you are correct. I did not look up the reference, yet any translation using the word "end" is definitely misleading.

Blessings,
BHS

It's not the word "end" it's the word "for" that is misleading.

manichunter
May 5th 2009, 04:55 PM
I consider the Law to be the verbal expression of God's nature and principles by which He governs things. That, to me, is Torah. And the festivals, individually, serve as reminders of that, and consistent days throughout the year (including Sabbath) for people to get a chance to ponder their doings, pay attention to God, find forgiveness, and a new resolve to do things God's way.

I'm certainly not against God's commandments (how can I? I'm His child), but I think that in Christ, the focus goes well beyond these individual things that people were required to keep. It's a position to not only elevate us to the original design (that of man in unbroken fellowship with God) but also to be allowed such close fellowship with His nature, which is holy, that nobody who has ever truly seen God and tasted Him that way, should even think about consciously violating His nature and that new position afforded to us, but press on instead to lay hold of that which Christ purchased for us, in toto.

Which is why I think Paul calls the Law our tutor. It first introduces us to the concept of a holy God and in its light we can immediately see where we fall short of even just the first commandment (because no person who has been brought up in a sinful environment and taught worldly concepts is able to love God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength on a continuous basis, 24/7; many aren't even aware of His existence). Then you toss in the other 9 and the summary of it that Jesus gives (which is those 9, except far more encompassing) to love our neighbors as ourselves, and then you have a situation on your hand that, without Christ, who perfectly did those things and lived them (and testified of that Himself), we have no chance of pleasing a holy God without consistently tripping ourselves up, because sin is always lurking and temptation is always around the corner.

It isn't the healthy who need a physician but those who are sick, no?

I do believe that in Christ, festival keeping and day keeping is completely optional. Because the essence of it, which is the pointing to the holiness of God, is what we need to take away from them, and live that out on a daily basis, by the Holy Spirit given to us. Which is why Hebrews exhorts us to not fall away, not shrink back, pay attention, don't harden our hearts, listen to God speaking to us through Jesus, because those who know better, and reject Him and His blood for that of bulls and goats, and go backwards instead of forward, have harsher judgment coming their way than those who didn't believe and know to begin with. The blood of the New Covenant speaks! Woe to them who would trample it underfoot and seek to replace it with that which God no longer recognizes! Hebrews is a strong exhortation to never go back to mere outward observance, which were those shadows pointing to Jesus, but to lay hold of the real deal, which is Christ, rely on His blood, depend on His Person, embrace Him fully, and never look back. And I think that God drove the point home when the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. God provided us with supreme salvation; we simply cannot afford to shrink back and look elsewhere, because there is only name by which we can be saved, and that is Jesus. We have a better covenant. The Old lays the foundation of that; but it doesn't touch the New; as Jesus had not been born then. Now that He is, God's salvation is complete, and there will never be another way again. The temple is now the body of Christ, and if anyone defiles that temple, God will deal with them. Do we not know that we are the temple of God and that the Spirit, the very presence and essence and power of God, resides in our midst, within us, even, and we are one Spirit with the Lord? The veil is gone, the wall of division has been removed, and will never exist again, and there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ Jesus? So why draw dividing lines again? Why bother with these things?

Manichunter, brother, I understand what you're saying. What I don't understand is all this Jewish terminology being used all the time, making us look back to a concept that is foreign to so many, as if salvation can be found in it or even expressed through it, when the essence and reality of these things is in one Man, Jesus Christ, who desires all to be saved and become one in Him, in reality and essence, grace and truth.

Honestly, I pray the temple in Jerusalem is never rebuilt. I fear for the souls of many believers who may become enamored by types and shadows all over again, and who will shrink back and be tempted to search out those things because they think that it will have anything to do with their salvation. I do really believe that Ezekiel speaks of a temple not made by human hands, because there is only one blood of sprinkling; and that is the blood of Jesus Himself, which will not be shed a second time because it is finished.


Thanks for the insight brother. I see that we both have kept our eyes on Jesus and not one another.

Another note is that some believe that the Temple will actually be built again one day. It would mean nothing to me...............but the Lord must be coming soon.

Dani H
May 5th 2009, 04:59 PM
Thanks for the insight brother. I see that we both have kept our eyes on Jesus and not one another.

Another note is that some believe that the Temple will actually be built again one day. It would mean nothing to me...............but the Lord must be coming soon.

Sister, and yes, come quickly Lord Jesus! :)

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