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kf4zmt
Apr 28th 2009, 04:33 PM
1 Corinthians 16:1-3, NKJV

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. 3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is typically used to derive authority for a general, on-going weekly collection when we assemble. I wonder if we have read too much into this passage? The reason for this collection was specific and it was to send aid to the Christians in Jerusalem who had need. Please note the following about this passage:



No mention of a perpetual collection for non-specific purposes
No mention that the collection was taken during the assembly
No mention of an assembly at all; one has to assume the assembly in this passage
No mention of a "church treasury"


The text says that each one was to lay something aside, storing up. The KJV says "lay by him in store". As best I can tell, the meaning in the Greek is that each person was to lay something beside himself, storing it. The Greek word, parheauto is translated "along side himself," or "by him". It conveys the notion of being beside something. The English words "parallel" and "parable" share a similar connection. A parable is a comparison; two things laid side by side in a story. Parallel means that two things are side by side. Mind you I have no training in Greek. I'm drawing on lexicons, commentaries, etc. but it all stands to reason. The idea is that something was to be set aside, presumably at home, in anticipation of Paul's arrival. How does one lay something aside and store up or lay it beside himself if it was taken up into a "church treasury"?

Since I've been contemplating all this, I have begun to notice an odd thing that often happens during our weekly collection. Frequently, when saying a few words before the collection, the brother will say that "we are commanded to lay by in store" instead of "lay by him in store". Somehow we drop the word "him" when we quote from this passage. Could it be that we subconsciously drop the word "him" because somewhere in the back of our mind we know the actual quote doesn't gel with our practice? Verse 3 usually isn't quoted either. If you quote all 3 verses verbatim, it doesn't really apply to what we are doing at that exact moment does it?

I'm not saying that we don't have authority to take up a collection because I think there is authority. I'm just not sure we find it in this passage. If 1 Cor 16:1-3 authorizes anything for us today, it authorizes us to send our money to brethren for specific needs; not for a perpetual collection meant for general use.

Thoughts?

RabbiKnife
Apr 28th 2009, 04:35 PM
Now, now...

Don't go getting the Bible involved in our church practices, or you'll just ruin everything.

-SEEKING-
Apr 28th 2009, 05:03 PM
Oh man. You hit a sensitive nerve with me here. Let me just exit quickly.

uric3
Apr 28th 2009, 05:14 PM
Reading this thread reminded me of a funny youtube video I saw about tithing perhaps a few people here will find it funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzVKPtDdjR4

kf4zmt
Apr 28th 2009, 06:38 PM
Reading this thread reminded me of a funny youtube video I saw about tithing perhaps a few people here will find it funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzVKPtDdjR4

Very funny! :rofl:

Windmill2000
Apr 28th 2009, 09:25 PM
Reading this thread reminded me of a funny youtube video I saw about tithing perhaps a few people here will find it funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzVKPtDdjR4

Funny video "thanks"

adean
Apr 29th 2009, 01:35 PM
1 Co 16:1-3 does not give churches permission to take up an offering. This passage has been abused by the clergy for hundreds of years to send their congregants on a guilt trip when they aren't giving till it hurts.

Christians are to use their money to honor God and bring glory to Him. This is done every time a disciple helps the poor or supports someone who is teaching the Gospel to the lost. There is nothing wrong with Christians pooling their money to accomplish some goal if that is what they want to do, but there is nothing in the New Testament that commands Christians to give their money to a church every week.

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2009, 02:39 PM
According to the scriptures, the collection for the saints is just what it was suposed to be, for the poor saints. It was to be collected and then distributed to the saints that needed it.

They were being told to have the collection ready for collection by whoever was collecting it.

This should not be confused with tithing.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

uric3
Apr 29th 2009, 02:46 PM
Question can it only be given to needy saints and why? What if myself and a group of Christians wanted to give to someone who wasn't a Christian to encourage them let them know we care... hopefully by setting that good example they to might come to Christ.

Granted that collection in question was for the saints in Jerusalem... however how do we know it can only go for needy saints?

For example in Matt 26:8-10 they said the perfume could have been sold and given to the poor... they didn't say poor disciples... it was just to the poor...

Anyway just a thought... maybe it is only for needy saints but can someone show me a passage that, this is the only thing it can go for?

kf4zmt
Apr 29th 2009, 02:50 PM
According to the scriptures, the collection for the saints is just what it was suposed to be, for the poor saints. It was to be collected and then distributed to the saints that needed it.

They were being told to have the collection ready for collection by whoever was collecting it.

This should not be confused with tithing.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I didn't think Christians were required to tithe? This was something that was required under the Old Testament law, but I don't see a New Testament equivalent. What do you mean by tithing?

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2009, 03:01 PM
Question can it only be given to needy saints and why? What if myself and a group of Christians wanted to give to someone who wasn't a Christian to encourage them let them know we care... hopefully by setting that good example they to might come to Christ.

Granted that collection in question was for the saints in Jerusalem... however how do we know it can only go for needy saints?

For example in Matt 26:8-10 they said the perfume could have been sold and given to the poor... they didn't say poor disciples... it was just to the poor...

Anyway just a thought... maybe it is only for needy saints but can someone show me a passage that, this is the only thing it can go for?

Although this scripture does not specify, however it is clear in the ones after.

Gal 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Rom 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 15:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

1 Cor 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Mt 25:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I hope that has helped.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

uric3
Apr 29th 2009, 03:10 PM
Although this scripture does not specify, however it is clear in the ones after.

Gal 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Rom 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 15:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

1 Cor 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Mt 25:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

I hope that has helped.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I agree that those passages save Gal 2 all point that they helped needy saints and their fellow brethren... Gal 2:10 is questionable as to whether it was poor saints or was it the poor they was going to preach to that had not obeyed the Gospel yet...

I guess my question is this "Can the money collected not be used for just the poor... is it only for needy saints... if its only for needy saints what passages would apply...

Thanks.

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2009, 03:24 PM
I agree that those passages save Gal 2 all point that they helped needy saints and their fellow brethren... Gal 2:10 is questionable as to whether it was poor saints or was it the poor they was going to preach to that had not obeyed the Gospel yet...

I guess my question is this "Can the money collected not be used for just the poor... is it only for needy saints... if its only for needy saints what passages would apply...

Thanks.

Unless anyone know scripture to say otherwise there is nothing wrong if we help one that is not a brother as in the following.

Rom 12:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

billy-brown 2
Apr 29th 2009, 03:28 PM
Now, now...

Don't go getting the Bible involved in our church practices, or you'll just ruin everything.

LOL :lol:

There we are then . . .

Apparently, the churches in Galatia, the church at Rome, and the Corinthians were asked to be involved in this--an event which is in the scriptures to indicate what happened at a SINGLE POINT in history.

And, this is not biblical "tithing" at all, of course . . .

kf4zmt
Apr 29th 2009, 03:32 PM
LOL :lol:

There we are then . . .

Apparently, the churches in Galatia, the church at Rome, and the Corinthians were asked to be involved in this--an event which is in the scriptures to indicate what happened at a SINGLE POINT in history.

And, this is not biblical "tithing" at all, of course . . .


Agreed. What would you say biblical tithing is?

uric3
Apr 29th 2009, 03:38 PM
Unless anyone know scripture to say otherwise there is nothing wrong if we help one that is not a brother as in the following.

Rom 12:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thanks for your response I agree with this... however I do know of churches that thinks it can only go to needy saints and the work of the church(preaching, building, travel expenses, etc... and that it can't be spent on anything else. Anyway I don't want to derail the thread but thats why I was asking so I could understand it if by chance you believed that... anyway thanks again.

TrophyofGrace
Apr 29th 2009, 03:43 PM
I didn't think Christians were required to tithe? This was something that was required under the Old Testament law, but I don't see a New Testament equivalent. What do you mean by tithing?


Actually, tithing predates the OT law:

Ge 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

As far as the NT equivalent goes, I don't see where we're commanded to tithe, but we are to give with the right attitude:

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Similarly, I don't see where we're forbidden to tithe either, and historically God has always relied on His people to provide for His house:

Ex 35:4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
Ex 35:5 Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,

1Ch 29:9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.


1Ch 29:16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

billy-brown 2
Apr 29th 2009, 03:52 PM
Agreed. What would you say biblical tithing is?

Well, to tell you would derail this thread.

Really . . .

kf4zmt
Apr 29th 2009, 03:56 PM
Actually, tithing predates the OT law:

Ge 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

As far as the NT equivalent goes, I don't see where we're commanded to tithe, but we are to give with the right attitude:

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Similarly, I don't see where we're forbidden to tithe either, and historically God has always relied on His people to provide for His house:

Ex 35:4 And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
Ex 35:5 Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,

1Ch 29:9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.


1Ch 29:16 O LORD our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee an house for thine holy name cometh of thine hand, and is all thine own.
1Ch 29:17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

I don't think we are required by God to give a specific amount under the New Covenant. However, the expectation is that we will support the preaching of the Gospel and help those who are in need. I don't see a line drawn that says only Christians can be helped.

However, I think this can all be accomplished without giving to a church organization. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying it is wrong to give to a church, but neither do I see any commands that require Christians to give to a church. I give to a local church, but I don't give all of my "offering" to them. I send a significant portion of my "offering" directly to a brother overseas that is preaching the Gospel. I also give directly to those whom I encounter that are in need.

I suppose that you could say that I'm concerned about the practice of teaching that all you give must go to the church.

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 06:51 AM
Thanks for your response I agree with this... however I do know of churches that thinks it can only go to needy saints and the work of the church(preaching, building, travel expenses, etc... and that it can't be spent on anything else. Anyway I don't want to derail the thread but thats why I was asking so I could understand it if by chance you believed that... anyway thanks again.

Thanks Uric,

You are most welcome.

With what churches do with what they have collected other than for the poor saints would we a whole new thread.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

CommanderRobey
May 9th 2009, 05:50 AM
Agreed. What would you say biblical tithing is?
A tenth of crops, flocks and herds given to the Levites working in the Tabernacle. Crops, flocks and herds were the only things to be tithed and the Levites were the only ones authorized to receive the tithe.

The third year tithe was not to be taken to the Tabernacle, but rather was to be used to feed the widow, the orphan, the Levite living on one's land, and the stranger in the city limits.

That is the Biblical tithe.

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