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THOM
Apr 29th 2009, 12:04 AM
It is Written:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Some simple definitions of Words and Phrases found in Ephesians 2:8-9, helps us to understand what it is, and what it is not, that we bring to the Table of GOD's Salvation.

"Grace": GOD's unmerited, undeserved, and unearned favor towards any and everyone.

"Faith": Believing GOD.

". . .that not of yourselves...": You and I bring absolutely nothing to the table that GOD has not FIRST given to us to bring...

. . .except [individually] ourselves. . .and our [individual] sins.

And please don't miss the fact that you and I couldn't even bring the "faith" were it not for GOD; GOD gives us that "faith", as it is written, "Faith comes by hearing THE WORD of GOD (Romans 10:17)".

"THE GIFT of GOD": SALVATION, also, Grace, Faith, all via THE WORD of GOD . Regarding the word, "gift", if you or I bought it, earned it, deserved it, etc., then IT IS NOT a "gift". Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received.

"works": Deeds ("Good" or "Bad"); Do's and/or Do Not's. . .like, maybe, "The law of Moses".

". . .lest any man should boast.": There is absolutely nothing that we can brag about, being and/or doing, in order for GOD to lead us to HIS GIFT of Salvation. However, there is ONE THING that Scripture gives us permission to brag about, "Thus saith THE LORD, 'Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows ME, that I AM THE LORD which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight,' saith THE LORD. ([I]Jeremiah 9:23-24)"

Questions and Comments are very welcomed.

fuzzi
Apr 29th 2009, 01:10 AM
I cannot glory in my self, my deeds, my abilities, my flesh, because in it dwelleth no good thing (Romans 7:18).

But I can glory in Christ, and what He has done for me.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." (Galatians 6:14,15) :pp

Watchmen
Apr 29th 2009, 01:20 AM
What should we bring to the table of salvation?

Everything were have and everything we are. Then we should lay it down at Christ feet, pick up our cross and start following Him.

Gulah Papyrus
Apr 29th 2009, 01:37 AM
It is Written:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Some simple definitions of Words and Phrases found in Ephesians 2:8-9, helps us to understand what it is, and what it is not, that we bring to the Table of GOD's Salvation.

"Grace": GOD's unmerited, undeserved, and unearned favor towards any and everyone.

"Faith": Believing GOD.

". . .that not of yourselves...": You and I bring absolutely nothing to the table that GOD has not FIRST given to us to bring...

. . .except [individually] ourselves. . .and our [individual] sins.

And please don't miss the fact that you and I couldn't even bring the "faith" were it not for GOD; GOD gives us that "faith", as it is written, "Faith comes by hearing THE WORD of GOD (Romans 10:17)".

"THE GIFT of GOD": SALVATION, also, Grace, Faith, all via THE WORD of GOD . Regarding the word, "gift", if you or I bought it, earned it, deserved it, etc., then IT IS NOT a "gift". Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received.

"works": Deeds ("Good" or "Bad"); Do's and/or Do Not's. . .like, maybe, "The law of Moses".

". . .lest any man should boast.": There is absolutely nothing that we can brag about, being and/or doing, in order for GOD to lead us to HIS GIFT of Salvation. However, there is ONE THING that Scripture gives us permission to brag about, "Thus saith THE LORD, 'Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows ME, that I AM THE LORD which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight,' saith THE LORD. ([I]Jeremiah 9:23-24)"

Questions and Comments are very welcomed.Just letting you know that the CAPS and the Bold Cursive and color and the underlined text, and different SIZES does NOTHING to help your point but just make your "posts" harder to read....and I am more likely to just skip over it. Just thought I'd share.

;)

RogerW
Apr 29th 2009, 02:08 AM
It is Written:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Some simple definitions of Words and Phrases found in Ephesians 2:8-9, helps us to understand what it is, and what it is not, that we bring to the Table of GOD's Salvation.

"Grace": GOD's unmerited, undeserved, and unearned favor towards any and everyone.

"Faith": Believing GOD.

". . .that not of yourselves...": You and I bring absolutely nothing to the table that GOD has not FIRST given to us to bring...

. . .except [individually] ourselves. . .and our [individual] sins.

And please don't miss the fact that you and I couldn't even bring the "faith" were it not for GOD; GOD gives us that "faith", as it is written, "Faith comes by hearing THE WORD of GOD (Romans 10:17)".

"THE GIFT of GOD": SALVATION, also, Grace, Faith, all via THE WORD of GOD . Regarding the word, "gift", if you or I bought it, earned it, deserved it, etc., then IT IS NOT a "gift". Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received.

"works": Deeds ("Good" or "Bad"); Do's and/or Do Not's. . .like, maybe, "The law of Moses".

". . .lest any man should boast.": There is absolutely nothing that we can brag about, being and/or doing, in order for GOD to lead us to HIS GIFT of Salvation. However, there is ONE THING that Scripture gives us permission to brag about, "Thus saith THE LORD, 'Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows ME, that I AM THE LORD which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight,' saith THE LORD. ([I]Jeremiah 9:23-24)"

Questions and Comments are very welcomed.

Greetings Thom,

I concur with almost everything you have stated. There is only one point to this statement "Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received." To receive salvation means that we are given eternal life. I cannot find a single verse of Scripture that tells me eternal life must be received. I find many verses telling me that Christ will give eternal/everlasting life unconditionally to those who believe. When we make salvation a gift that must be received, it suggests that we can also refuse to receive it. Truth is that unless a man is first regenerated by the power of the Word and Holy Spirit he/she will always refuse the gospel call.

I don't believe that God's grace is resistible, therefore salvation is a gift given not offered. It may be a fine point, but I believe a necessary point nonetheless...the gospel call is offered to every man, and through the call all men are commanded to repent and believe. But only those given the free gift of saving faith (regeneration) will believe. Not by their own will, but by the will of God. None who have been regenerated will refuse to repent and believe because God has changed their hearts and made them willing.

I would state salvation as something that God deposits in His elect, much like someone else depositing money in our account.

Many Blessings,
RW

crossnote
Apr 29th 2009, 05:57 AM
Greetings Thom,

I concur with almost everything you have stated. There is only one point to this statement "Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received." To receive salvation means that we are given eternal life. I cannot find a single verse of Scripture that tells me eternal life must be received. RW

What if we try this one on for size keeping in mind that Eternal Life is found in Christ Jesus.
-
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
(Joh 1:12)

Firstfruits
Apr 29th 2009, 08:13 AM
It is Written:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Some simple definitions of Words and Phrases found in Ephesians 2:8-9, helps us to understand what it is, and what it is not, that we bring to the Table of GOD's Salvation.

"Grace": GOD's unmerited, undeserved, and unearned favor towards any and everyone.

"Faith": Believing GOD.

". . .that not of yourselves...": You and I bring absolutely nothing to the table that GOD has not FIRST given to us to bring...

. . .except [individually] ourselves. . .and our [individual] sins.

And please don't miss the fact that you and I couldn't even bring the "faith" were it not for GOD; GOD gives us that "faith", as it is written, "Faith comes by hearing THE WORD of GOD (Romans 10:17)".

"THE GIFT of GOD": SALVATION, also, Grace, Faith, all via THE WORD of GOD . Regarding the word, "gift", if you or I bought it, earned it, deserved it, etc., then IT IS NOT a "gift". Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received.

"works": Deeds ("Good" or "Bad"); Do's and/or Do Not's. . .like, maybe, "The law of Moses".

". . .lest any man should boast.": There is absolutely nothing that we can brag about, being and/or doing, in order for GOD to lead us to HIS GIFT of Salvation. However, there is ONE THING that Scripture gives us permission to brag about, "Thus saith THE LORD, 'Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glories glory in this, that he understands and knows ME, that I AM THE LORD which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight,' saith THE LORD. ([I]Jeremiah 9:23-24)"

Questions and Comments are very welcomed.

Amen and God bless you!!!

Firstfruits

THOM
Apr 29th 2009, 10:29 AM
Greetings Thom,

I concur with almost everything you have stated. There is only one point to this statement "Further, it is only a "gift", if it is received." To receive salvation means that we are given eternal life. I cannot find a single verse of Scripture that tells me eternal life must be received. I find many verses telling me that Christ will give eternal/everlasting life unconditionally to those who believe. When we make salvation a gift that must be received, it suggests that we can also refuse to receive it. Truth is that unless a man is first regenerated by the power of the Word and Holy Spirit he/she will always refuse the gospel call.

I don't believe that God's grace is resistible, therefore salvation is a gift given not offered. It may be a fine point, but I believe a necessary point nonetheless...the gospel call is offered to every man, and through the call all men are commanded to repent and believe. But only those given the free gift of saving faith (regeneration) will believe. Not by their own will, but by the will of God. None who have been regenerated will refuse to repent and believe because God has changed their hearts and made them willing.

I would state salvation as something that God deposits in His elect, much like someone else depositing money in our account.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hello RW; Your point is well taken and understood.

"Eternal life", is the byproduct of "Salvation"; "Salvation" is "THE GIFT of GOD", that must be "received". "Salvation" cannot be skipped, and "Eternal life" received. The former must precede the latter.

GOD'S SALVATION is Past, Present, and Future:
Past (we were saved), from the penalty of Sin, which is Death (Romans 6:23);
Present (we are saved), from the power of Sin, which is Slavery [B](John 8:34);
Future (we will be saved), from the presence of Sin, which is Influence (Romans 5:12).

theBelovedDisciple
Apr 29th 2009, 04:02 PM
Everything I have today and the reason I actually exist today is because of Him... It Truly is a Gift.. I did not deserve or warrant His Grace and Mercy.. and by all means should of been a 'statistic' in my early life.. which included suicide and car accidents and near drownings... I can't boast and will not boast that it was by my hand and my own power that I came to Him.. or that it is because of me that I exist today... and when I come before Him to recieve any award He may grant me... I will lay those down at His Feet because He paid the price and did it all by being nailed to that Bloody Tree.. because He loved me and those He came for...

The Issues of Salvation belong to God and Him alone... and they flow thru that Bloody Tree.. where He stated... It is Finished

and those who Truly Love Him and are His...

love Him.. because He first Loved them and gave His Life a Ransom for them....

His Gift... towards those He loves..

Today I truly Know that It was by Grace that I was saved in 1994... I have nothing to boast about because I should not be... but because of Him.. I shall and will Live Forever...

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 12:04 AM
What if we try this one on for size keeping in mind that Eternal Life is found in Christ Jesus.
-
But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
(Joh 1:12)


Greetings Crossnote,

How will they receive Him? Being born of God through regeneration. All of God, none of man. Salvation is of the Lord!

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 12:08 AM
Hello RW; Your point is well taken and understood.

"Eternal life", is the byproduct of "Salvation"; "Salvation" is "THE GIFT of GOD", that must be "received". "Salvation" cannot be skipped, and "Eternal life" received. The former must precede the latter.

GOD'S SALVATION is Past, Present, and Future:
Past (we were saved), from the penalty of Sin, which is Death (Romans 6:23);
Present (we are saved), from the power of Sin, which is Slavery [B](John 8:34);
Future (we will be saved), from the presence of Sin, which is Influence (Romans 5:12).

Greetings Thom,

Would you agree that God's grace is irresistible?

Many Blessings,
RW

Dani H
Apr 30th 2009, 01:48 AM
The only thing I brought to the table was me, in my sin.

The only reason I came to the table was by His grace, and Him leading me to it. Because I didn't even know there was a table.

God then removed my sin and placed me in Christ.

I always say He got the short end of the stick in the deal, but I'm glad He did what He did.

THOM
Apr 30th 2009, 04:12 AM
Greetings Thom,

Would you agree that God's grace is irresistible?

Many Blessings,
RW

Greetings to you Roger,

Regarding your question, NO, I cannot agree that "God's grace is irresistible". Far too many people see to resist it for whatever reason(s), as it is Written, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51ff)". "THE HOLY GHOST" is GOD'S Grace PERSONIFIED Spiritually, and if a person can "resist THE HOLY GHOST", they won't have a major problem resisting "God's grace". And this has been going on, at least, as far back as Genesis 6:3, "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."; There shouldn't have been a "strive", were "God's grace. . .irresistible". Don't you agree?

Bless you my Brother,


The only thing I brought to the table was me, in my sin.

The only reason I came to the table was by His grace, and Him leading me to it. Because I didn't even know there was a table.

God then removed my sin and placed me in Christ.

I always say He got the short end of the stick in the deal, but I'm glad He did what He did.

Your very humble Spirit is very endearing; and I'd say HE got someone that I'm very proud to have as a Sibling.;)

crossnote
Apr 30th 2009, 05:38 AM
Greetings Crossnote,

How will they receive Him? Being born of God through regeneration. All of God, none of man. Salvation is of the Lord!

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Many Blessings,
RW
True, true, monergism and all that but stilll...receive Him we must.

fuzzi
Apr 30th 2009, 12:05 PM
Regarding your question, NO, I cannot agree that "God's grace is irresistible". Far too many people see to resist it for whatever reason(s), as it is Written, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51ff)". "THE HOLY GHOST" is GOD'S Grace PERSONIFIED Spiritually, and if a person can "resist THE HOLY GHOST", they won't have a major problem resisting "God's grace". And this has been going on, at least, as far back as Genesis 6:3, "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."; There shouldn't have been a "strive", were "God's grace. . .irresistible". Don't you agree?
As far as examples of resisting God, consider Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

THOM
Apr 30th 2009, 12:59 PM
As far as examples of resisting God, consider Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Great Point; AMEN!!!

Partaker of Christ
Apr 30th 2009, 01:49 PM
True, true, monergism and all that but stilll...receive Him we must.

I am not good at this stuff, but can someone help.

Is this 'received', is it in the passive, active or middle voice?

I mean, someone could punch me on the nose, and then I could say that I 'received' a punch.

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 02:59 PM
True, true, monergism and all that but stilll...receive Him we must.


I am not good at this stuff, but can someone help.

Is this 'received', is it in the passive, active or middle voice?

I mean, someone could punch me on the nose, and then I could say that I 'received' a punch.

Exactly Partaker! Crossnote says "receive Him we MUST", but I would argue that in monergistic (God alone) salvation "receive Him we WILL." As I pointed out with Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God, it is not by our will that we will receive Him, by by the will of God alone. It is because He is working in us that we WILL receive Him. Saying we MUST receive Him implies the will of man MUST cooperate with saving grace to be saved. But saying man is responsible for even the smallest part of his/her salvation takes some of the glory from God alone, and God will not share His glory with another!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 03:41 PM
Greetings to you Roger,
Regarding your question, NO, I cannot agree that "God's grace is irresistible". Far too many people see to resist it for whatever reason(s), as it is Written, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51ff)". "THE HOLY GHOST" is GOD'S Grace PERSONIFIED Spiritually, and if a person can "resist THE HOLY GHOST", they won't have a major problem resisting "God's grace". And this has been going on, at least, as far back as Genesis 6:3, "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."; There shouldn't have been a "strive", were "God's grace. . .irresistible". Don't you agree?

Bless you my Brother,

Greetings Thom,

Has not God predestined an elect/chosen people from before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph 1:4-6)? But you believe those predestined, chosen people can say, "no thanks God, I'm not interested in being saved"? Can you not see how this makes God dependent upon the will of fallen man to accomplish His plans to redeem a people for Himself? How could God have written the names of any man in His book of life to be saved if man can refuse the will of God to save them?

We need to examine greater context of Acts 7 to clearly see who is being addressed in verse 51. Beginning in verse 1 Stephen, speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh expounds the history of the Hebrew people. It is they who did always resist the Holy Spirit. How did they resist the Holy Spirit as their fathers before them had?

Stephen is speaking of a time before Pentecost, so we have to keep reading to see how these OT Hebrew people resisted the Holy Spirit. Verse 52 tells us they refused to hear, and in fact persecuted and killed the prophets God had sent, that they might understand and obey God. They also had received the law, whereby they might be instructed, but they refused to keep the law. This is how they refused the Holy Spirit, and just as they had refused to hear the prophets and the law, they also refused to hear Christ, so now they refuse to hear Stephen, and stone him to death. Still resisting the Spirit just as God said they always do.

Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Ac 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen had come to them in the Spirit of the Lord, and they refused to hear him, thereby refusing the Holy Spirit as they always do.

What did God mean in Gen 6:3 "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."?

If we quote the whole verse we gain better understanding "for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Very clearly the Spirit of God did not continue to strive with man. Did He not send a universal flood saying, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."? God gave the people living in the days of Noah 120 years, then He sent the flood that He would no longer strive with man, just as He promised. That does not mean that God is no longer longsuffering and patiently waiting for all His elect to come into the Kingdom. But it does mean, just as it did in the time of Noah, that the time will finally come when God's Kingdom is complete that He will no longer stive with mankind. God's striving with man does not mean that God's predestined, chosen people can resist His will to save whosoever He wills. It simply means that God is longsuffering and not willing that any of His chosen people, having like precious faith will be lost (1Pe 3).

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 05:08 PM
Greetings Thom,

Has not God predestined an elect/chosen people from before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph 1:4-6)? But you believe those predestined, chosen people can say, "no thanks God, I'm not interested in being saved"? Can you not see how this makes God dependent upon the will of fallen man to accomplish His plans to redeem a people for Himself? How could God have written the names of any man in His book of life to be saved if man can refuse the will of God to save them?

We need to examine greater context of Acts 7 to clearly see who is being addressed in verse 51. Beginning in verse 1 Stephen, speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh expounds the history of the Hebrew people. It is they who did always resist the Holy Spirit. How did they resist the Holy Spirit as their fathers before them had?

Stephen is speaking of a time before Pentecost, so we have to keep reading to see how these OT Hebrew people resisted the Holy Spirit. Verse 52 tells us they refused to hear, and in fact persecuted and killed the prophets God had sent, that they might understand and obey God. They also had received the law, whereby they might be instructed, but they refused to keep the law. This is how they refused the Holy Spirit, and just as they had refused to hear the prophets and the law, they also refused to hear Christ, so now they refuse to hear Stephen, and stone him to death. Still resisting the Spirit just as God said they always do.

Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Ac 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen had come to them in the Spirit of the Lord, and they refused to hear him, thereby refusing the Holy Spirit as they always do. No matter what you try to say the fact is that it says they resisted the Holy Spirit while you try to say that He is irresistible. Do you know why it says they were "stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears"? Because it is to one's spiritual heart and ears that the Holy Spirit speaks in order to make one aware of their need to repent. But they willfully and stubbornly refused to do so as it talks about here:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus wanted them to repent! But they "would not!". But you say otherwise.

If you won't listen to me, maybe you will listen to these guys who are all in agreement on this issue:

Matthew Henry

Stephen was going on, it seems, to show that the temple and the temple service must come to an end, and it would be the glory of both to give way to the worship of the Father in spirit and in truth; but he perceived they would not bear it. Therefore he broke off, and by the Spirit of wisdom, courage, and power, sharply rebuked his persecutors. When plain arguments and truths provoke the opposers of the gospel, they should be shown their guilt and danger. They, like their fathers, were stubborn and wilful. There is that in our sinful hearts, which always resists the Holy Ghost, a flesh that lusts against the Spirit, and wars against his motions; but in the hearts of God's elect, when the fulness of time comes, this resistance is overcome. The gospel was offered now, not by angels, but from the Holy Ghost; yet they did not embrace it, for they were resolved not to comply with God, either in his law or in his gospel. Their guilt stung them to the heart, and they sought relief in murdering their reprover, instead of sorrow and supplication for mercy.

John Wesley

7:51 Ye stiff necked - Not bowing the neck to God's yoke; and uncircumcised in heart - So they showed themselves, ver. 54; Act 7:54 and ears - As they showed, ver. 57. Act 7:57 So far were they from receiving the word of God into their hearts, that they would not hear it even with their ears. Ye - And your fathers, always - As often as ever ye are called, resist the Holy Ghost - Testifying by the prophets of Jesus, and the whole truth. This is the sum of what he had shown at large.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown

51-53. Ye stiffnecked . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost, &c.-It has been thought that symptoms of impatience and irritation in the audience induced Stephen to cut short his historical sketch. But as little farther light could have been thrown upon Israel's obstinacy from subsequent periods of the national history on the testimony of their own Scriptures, we should view this as the summing up, the brief import of the whole Israelitish history-grossness of heart, spiritual deafness, continuous resistance of the Holy Ghost, down to the very council before whom Stephen was pleading.

Albert Barnes

Resist the Holy Ghost - You oppose the message which is brought to you by the authority of God and the inspiration of his Spirit. The message brought by Moses; by the prophets (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/1098/Prophets-Prophecy-Part-1.htm); by the Saviour; and by the apostles - all by the infallible direction of the Holy Spirit (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/463/Holy-Spirit-Trinity-Part-1.htm) - they and their fathers opposed.

Robertson

Resist (antipiptete). Old word to fall against, to rush against. Only here in the N.T., but used in the O.T. which is here quoted (Numbers 27:14 (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/4569/eVerseID/4569/opt/comm/RTD/rwpnt/version/kjv)). Their fathers had made "external worship a substitute for spiritual obedience" (Furneaux). Stephen has shown how God had revealed himself gradually, the revelation sloping upward to Christ Jesus. "And as he saw his countrymen repeating the old mistake--clinging to the present and the material, while God was calling them to higher spiritual levels--and still, as ever, resisting the Holy Spirit, treating the Messiah as the patriarchs had treated Joseph, and the Hebrews Moses--the pity of it overwhelmed him, and his mingled grief and indignation broke out in words of fire, such as burned of old on the lips of the prophets" (Furneaux). Stephen, the accused, is now the accuser, and the situation becomes intolerable to the Sanhedrin.

Adam Clarke

Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost -
1.Because they were uncircumcised in heart, they always resisted the influences of the Holy Spirit (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/463/Holy-Spirit-Trinity-Part-1.htm), bringing light and conviction to their minds; in consequence of which they became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and neither repented at the preaching of John, nor credited the glad tidings told them by Christ and the apostles.


What did God mean in Gen 6:3 "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."?

If we quote the whole verse we gain better understanding "for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Very clearly the Spirit of God did not continue to strive with man. Did He not send a universal flood saying, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."? God gave the people living in the days of Noah 120 years, then He sent the flood that He would no longer strive with man, just as He promised. That does not mean that God is no longer longsuffering and patiently waiting for all His elect to come into the Kingdom. But it does mean, just as it did in the time of Noah, that the time will finally come when God's Kingdom is complete that He will no longer stive with mankind. God's striving with man does not mean that God's predestined, chosen people can resist His will to save whosoever He wills. It simply means that God is longsuffering and not willing that any of His chosen people, having like precious faith will be lost (1Pe 3).

Many Blessings,
RW The verse is speaking of God striving with mankind in general. It implies that He strives with all mankind. At that time He decided He would not continue to strive with the people on the earth at that time and He proved that to be true by destroying all but 8 of them. There is no reason to think He is not still striving with mankind today.

So, what does it mean for God to strive with man? In that verse, it means to contend with man. God sends judgments and speaks to people's hearts and consciences in order to lead them to repentance yet they willfully refuse to do so. It is in that way that He contends or strives with man.

It even talks about God reasoning with sinners.

Isaiah 1
16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

If no one had the free will to choose to repent or not then why in the world would God bother reasoning with sinners? And notice that in order to obey God one has to be willing to do so. They are either willing to obey or they refuse to obey and rebel instead. That implies a free will choice to either obey or to refuse and rebel. In the case of the Pharisees that Jesus scolded they refused to obey repeatedly. They were not destroyed because they refused to obey once or twice. God reached out to them continually and they continually refused to obey.

THOM
Apr 30th 2009, 05:36 PM
Greetings Thom,

Has not God predestined an elect/chosen people from before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph 1:4-6)? But you believe those predestined, chosen people can say, "no thanks God, I'm not interested in being saved"? Can you not see how this makes God dependent upon the will of fallen man to accomplish His plans to redeem a people for Himself? How could God have written the names of any man in His book of life to be saved if man can refuse the will of God to save them?

The reason that "those predestined, chosen people" CANNOT "say, 'no thanks God, I'm not interested in being saved'", is because it is Written, "For I AM GOD, and there is no other; I AM GOD, and there is none like ME, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done...(Isaiah 46:9-10)".

Remember JESUS states, "I AM THE ALPHA and THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING and THE END...(Revelations 1:8)". In order for GOD/JESUS to know that HE is "THE END", HE would have to be already at "THE END".

GOD IS Omniscient, HE knows everything; HE knows how things are going to turn out in any and all given situations. Why because HE IS Eternal.

GOD, unlike us, doesn't have to wait until something happens to know what the outcome is going to be. GOD IS already at the outcome of each and every situation imaginable. GOD IS at the end of Time already; GOD IS already at the end of HIS PLAN, waiting for you and I to get there. If you're going to make it and I'm not, HE already knows this.

The ONLY People "predestined" to be saved are the ones that GOD already knows have been saved. The ONLY People "predestined" to be lost are the ones that GOD already knows have been lost.

Ergo, Biblical "predestination", is GOD already knowing the outcome; not because HE has interfered with the outcome, but simply because HE knows the outcome.

"Predestination" is to let the Saved know, that GOD already knew/knows that you and I would be Saved. You and I may be surprised by it, but HE'S not.



We need to examine greater context of Acts 7 to clearly see who is being addressed in verse 51. Beginning in verse 1 Stephen, speaking to his kinsmen according to the flesh expounds the history of the Hebrew people. It is they who did always resist the Holy Spirit. How did they resist the Holy Spirit as their fathers before them had?

Stephen is speaking of a time before Pentecost, so we have to keep reading to see how these OT Hebrew people resisted the Holy Spirit. Verse 52 tells us they refused to hear, and in fact persecuted and killed the prophets God had sent, that they might understand and obey God. They also had received the law, whereby they might be instructed, but they refused to keep the law. This is how they refused the Holy Spirit, and just as they had refused to hear the prophets and the law, they also refused to hear Christ, so now they refuse to hear Stephen, and stone him to death. Still resisting the Spirit just as God said they always do.

Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Ac 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Stephen had come to them in the Spirit of the Lord, and they refused to hear him, thereby refusing the Holy Spirit as they always do.Your question was, "Would you agree that God's grace is irresistible?" Now, with what you have stated right above this, have you changed your mind? Are you now stating that "God's grace is" NOT "irresistible"? Yes? or No?

What did God mean in Gen 6:3 "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."?

If we quote the whole verse we gain better understanding "for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Very clearly the Spirit of God did not continue to strive with man. Did He not send a universal flood saying, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."? God gave the people living in the days of Noah 120 years, then He sent the flood that He would no longer strive with man, just as He promised. That does not mean that God is no longer longsuffering and patiently waiting for all His elect to come into the Kingdom. But it does mean, just as it did in the time of Noah, that the time will finally come when God's Kingdom is complete that He will no longer stive with mankind. God's striving with man does not mean that God's predestined, chosen people can resist His will to save whosoever He wills. It simply means that God is longsuffering and not willing that any of His chosen people, having like precious faith will be lost (1Pe 3).

Many Blessings,
RW [/quote]

Here is yet another misunderstanding about, "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

That verse has nothing to do with how much time elapsed between when GOD stated it, and when the flood occurred.

It has everything to do with what was now going to be the life span/expectany of mankind. Instead of living 930 years as Adam did, 969 years as Methuselah did, instead of living 800, 700 years, 600 years, 500 years, 400 years, 300 years, 200 years, etc. years, with GOD always having to "strive" with man to get man to do things GOD'S WAY, GOD would begin to cut their life expectancy to "one hundred and twenty years". And if "God's grace is irresistible", HE would not have had to "strive with man", because man would have readily accepted "God's grace".

Blessing to you,
Thom

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 05:45 PM
No matter what you try to say the fact is that it says they resisted the Holy Spirit while you try to say that He is irresistible. Do you know why it says they were "stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears"? Because it is to one's spiritual heart and ears that the Holy Spirit speaks in order to make one aware of their need to repent. But they willfully and stubbornly refused to do so as it talks about here:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus wanted them to repent! But they "would not!". But you say otherwise.

If you won't listen to me, maybe you will listen to these guys who are all in agreement on this issue:

Matthew Henry

Stephen was going on, it seems, to show that the temple and the temple service must come to an end, and it would be the glory of both to give way to the worship of the Father in spirit and in truth; but he perceived they would not bear it. Therefore he broke off, and by the Spirit of wisdom, courage, and power, sharply rebuked his persecutors. When plain arguments and truths provoke the opposers of the gospel, they should be shown their guilt and danger. They, like their fathers, were stubborn and wilful. There is that in our sinful hearts, which always resists the Holy Ghost, a flesh that lusts against the Spirit, and wars against his motions; but in the hearts of God's elect, when the fulness of time comes, this resistance is overcome. The gospel was offered now, not by angels, but from the Holy Ghost; yet they did not embrace it, for they were resolved not to comply with God, either in his law or in his gospel. Their guilt stung them to the heart, and they sought relief in murdering their reprover, instead of sorrow and supplication for mercy.

John Wesley

7:51 Ye stiff necked - Not bowing the neck to God's yoke; and uncircumcised in heart - So they showed themselves, ver. 54; Act 7:54 and ears - As they showed, ver. 57. Act 7:57 So far were they from receiving the word of God into their hearts, that they would not hear it even with their ears. Ye - And your fathers, always - As often as ever ye are called, resist the Holy Ghost - Testifying by the prophets of Jesus, and the whole truth. This is the sum of what he had shown at large.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown

51-53. Ye stiffnecked . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost, &c.-It has been thought that symptoms of impatience and irritation in the audience induced Stephen to cut short his historical sketch. But as little farther light could have been thrown upon Israel's obstinacy from subsequent periods of the national history on the testimony of their own Scriptures, we should view this as the summing up, the brief import of the whole Israelitish history-grossness of heart, spiritual deafness, continuous resistance of the Holy Ghost, down to the very council before whom Stephen was pleading.

Albert Barnes

Resist the Holy Ghost - You oppose the message which is brought to you by the authority of God and the inspiration of his Spirit. The message brought by Moses; by the prophets (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/1098/Prophets-Prophecy-Part-1.htm); by the Saviour; and by the apostles - all by the infallible direction of the Holy Spirit (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/463/Holy-Spirit-Trinity-Part-1.htm) - they and their fathers opposed.

Robertson

Resist (antipiptete). Old word to fall against, to rush against. Only here in the N.T., but used in the O.T. which is here quoted (Numbers 27:14 (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/4569/eVerseID/4569/opt/comm/RTD/rwpnt/version/kjv)). Their fathers had made "external worship a substitute for spiritual obedience" (Furneaux). Stephen has shown how God had revealed himself gradually, the revelation sloping upward to Christ Jesus. "And as he saw his countrymen repeating the old mistake--clinging to the present and the material, while God was calling them to higher spiritual levels--and still, as ever, resisting the Holy Spirit, treating the Messiah as the patriarchs had treated Joseph, and the Hebrews Moses--the pity of it overwhelmed him, and his mingled grief and indignation broke out in words of fire, such as burned of old on the lips of the prophets" (Furneaux). Stephen, the accused, is now the accuser, and the situation becomes intolerable to the Sanhedrin.

Adam Clarke

Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost -
1.Because they were uncircumcised in heart, they always resisted the influences of the Holy Spirit (http://cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/463/Holy-Spirit-Trinity-Part-1.htm), bringing light and conviction to their minds; in consequence of which they became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and neither repented at the preaching of John, nor credited the glad tidings told them by Christ and the apostles.

The verse is speaking of God striving with mankind in general. It implies that He strives with all mankind. At that time He decided He would not continue to strive with the people on the earth at that time and He proved that to be true by destroying all but 8 of them. There is no reason to think He is not still striving with mankind today.

So, what does it mean for God to strive with man? In that verse, it means to contend with man. God sends judgments and speaks to people's hearts and consciences in order to lead them to repentance yet they willfully refuse to do so. It is in that way that He contends or strives with man.

It even talks about God reasoning with sinners.

Isaiah 1
16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

If no one had the free will to choose to repent or not then why in the world would God bother reasoning with sinners? And notice that in order to obey God one has to be willing to do so. They are either willing to obey or they refuse to obey and rebel instead. That implies a free will choice to either obey or to refuse and rebel. In the case of the Pharisees that Jesus scolded they refused to obey repeatedly. They were not destroyed because they refused to obey once or twice. God reached out to them continually and they continually refused to obey.

Eric, throughout your reply and with every commentary you prove my point. Every man is born exactly the same as the Hebrews of old. Just as only the elect remnant was saved by grace, so too only the elect multitude since the cross will be saved by grace. I have already told you time and again why God continues to reason with sinners...but you will not receive the truth because you cannot let go of having some small part in your salvation. Every man born in Adam, of the flesh will continually refuse to obey and submit to God until/unless he/she is regenerated by the Word and Spirit. Only those given ears to hear will hear His voice and follow Him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Prufrock
Apr 30th 2009, 05:51 PM
Eric, throughout your reply and with every commentary you prove my point. Every man is born exactly the same as the Hebrews of old. Just as only the elect remnant was saved by grace, so too only the elect multitude since the cross will be saved by grace. I have already told you time and again why God continues to reason with sinners...but you will not receive the truth because you cannot let go of having some small part in your salvation. Every man born in Adam, of the flesh will continually refuse to obey and submit to God until/unless he/she is regenerated by the Word and Spirit. Only those given ears to hear will hear His voice and follow Him.
Excuse me for interrupting, RW, but I want to make sure that I understand what you're saying. Is it your position that a man or woman must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he or she can receive Christ?

Thank you in advance for your response.

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 06:21 PM
Excuse me for interrupting, RW, but I want to make sure that I understand what you're saying. Is it your position that a man or woman must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before he or she can receive Christ?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Hi Prufrock,

Since you are still relatively new to the community let me say welcome!

Would you agree to receive Christ means we know and have entered the Kingdom of God? The Scripture tells us in Jo 3 that a man must be born again before he can see (know) or enter the Kingdom of God. Therefore how can a man receive Christ before he/she has been regenerated (spiritual re-birth) by the Spirit? We have a tendency to want to predicate our salvation upon faith, however Scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of grace (Eph 2:8,9). Therefore our faith cannot be the instument by which we are saved, otherwise we would not be saved by grace (Eph 2:5).

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 07:08 PM
The reason that "those predestined, chosen people" CANNOT "say, 'no thanks God, I'm not interested in being saved'", is because it is Written, "For I AM GOD, and there is no other; I AM GOD, and there is none like ME, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done...(Isaiah 46:9-10)".

Remember JESUS states, "I AM THE ALPHA and THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING and THE END...(Revelations 1:8)". In order for GOD/JESUS to know that HE is "THE END", HE would have to be already at "THE END".

GOD IS Omniscient, HE knows everything; HE knows how things are going to turn out in any and all given situations. Why because HE IS Eternal.

GOD, unlike us, doesn't have to wait until something happens to know what the outcome is going to be. GOD IS already at the outcome of each and every situation imaginable. GOD IS at the end of Time already; GOD IS already at the end of HIS PLAN, waiting for you and I to get there. If you're going to make it and I'm not, HE already knows this.

Well yeah that makes sense! After all He is the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9). Not to mention He wrote the Book. Including the Lamb's Book of Life where He wrote the names of all who will be saved before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8; 17:8).



The ONLY People "predestined" to be saved are the ones that GOD already knows have been saved.

We have been predestined (limit in advance, determine before, ordain) to be saved, not because we have been saved. Since the names of all who will be saved have already (before time began) been written in heaven, it is certain we will be born and born again. Yes, God does know who He has predestined to receive eternal life.



The ONLY People "predestined" to be lost are the ones that GOD already knows have been lost.

Every man born of the flesh, in Adam are lost until they have been born again. Why would God have to predestine them to be lost, since they are born lost? Doesn't Scripture tell us the Christ comes to seek and save His lost sheep? What does Christ say of these lost at the end of the age? "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" (Mt 7:23).



Ergo, Biblical "predestination", is GOD already knowing the outcome; not because HE has interfered with the outcome, but simply because HE knows the outcome.

"Predestination" is to let the Saved know, that GOD already knew/knows that you and I would be Saved. You and I may be surprised by it, but HE'S not.

Predestination is God knowing whom He will save. The elect will know when they are saved because they will have been regenerated by the power the Word and Holy Spirit.



Your question was, "Would you agree that God's grace is irresistible?" Now, with what you have stated right above this, have you changed your mind? Are you now stating that "God's grace is" NOT "irresistible"? Yes? or No?

My point, apparently not very well made, is that every man resists God until he/she is born again. God's grace is limited to those He has predestined to be saved, and therefore His grace is always irresistible.



What did God mean in Gen 6:3 "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man..."?

Here is yet another misunderstanding about, "MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with man for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

That verse has nothing to do with how much time elapsed between when GOD stated it, and when the flood occurred.

It has everything to do with what was now going to be the life span/expectany of mankind. Instead of living 930 years as Adam did, 969 years as Methuselah did, instead of living 800, 700 years, 600 years, 500 years, 400 years, 300 years, 200 years, etc. years, with GOD always having to "strive" with man to get man to do things GOD'S WAY, GOD would begin to cut their life expectancy to "one hundred and twenty years". And if "God's grace is irresistible", HE would not have had to "strive with man", because man would have readily accepted "God's grace".

Blessing to you,
Thom

Thom, do a little research to see how long it took Noah to build the Ark before the flood waters came.

God did not begin to cut their life expectancy to 120 years. How could that be? Just look at the generations of Noah's son, Shem, after the flood and you will find life expectancy was still far greater than 120 years. Consider Abraham:

Ge 25:7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 07:10 PM
Eric, throughout your reply and with every commentary you prove my point. Every man is born exactly the same as the Hebrews of old. Just as only the elect remnant was saved by grace, so too only the elect multitude since the cross will be saved by grace. I have already told you time and again why God continues to reason with sinners...but you will not receive the truth because you cannot let go of having some small part in your salvation. Every man born in Adam, of the flesh will continually refuse to obey and submit to God until/unless he/she is regenerated by the Word and Spirit. Only those given ears to hear will hear His voice and follow Him.Just one problem, Roger. There is no scripture at all that says people will continue to refuse to obey and submit to God unless he/she is first regenerated. None.

Also, I notice that you gave no direct response to the actual points I made in my post. I gave strong evidence to show that the reason the Pharisees resisted the Spirit and the call to repentance and salvation is because they "would not". Your doctrine says they could not. Where is the scripture that says they would not because they could not?

Is the reason they would not accept the gospel really just because God did not give them ears to hear? Or is it because they willfully refused to listen?

Matt 13
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Notice in verse 15 above that it says they closed their own eyes to the truth. It wasn't God that originally closed their eyes. They closed their own eyes to the truth. They rejected the truth repeatedly. What did God do at that point? He gave them over to their blindness and hardness of heart. But only after they had already closed their own eyes and hardened their own hearts. That's what you miss. He implies in that verse that had they not closed their eyes to the truth and instead were open to it then they "should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.".

We know from passages like Romans 1:18-32 that people do not start out in a condition of being spiritually blind, deaf and dumb. They become vain in their imaginations and become fools. They blind themselves and stop their own ears and refuse to listen. When that happens God gives "them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts" and gives "them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient".

The following passage illustrates this concept as well:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice what comes first. A person's continued refusal to receive "the love of the truth, that they might be saved". Then comes God sending strong delusion and giving them up to their wickedness.

It makes no sense whatsoever for people to "be damned who believed not the truth" if they had no ability to believe the truth.

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 07:45 PM
Hi Prufrock,

Since you are still relatively new to the community let me say welcome!

Would you agree to receive Christ means we know and have entered the Kingdom of God? The Scripture tells us in Jo 3 that a man must be born again before he can see (know) or enter the Kingdom of God. Therefore how can a man receive Christ before he/she has been regenerated (spiritual re-birth) by the Spirit? We have a tendency to want to predicate our salvation upon faith, however Scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of grace (Eph 2:8,9). Therefore our faith cannot be the instument by which we are saved, otherwise we would not be saved by grace (Eph 2:5).

Many Blessings,
RWWe enter the kingdom of God upon being born again. In other words it is the act of being born again that places us in the kingdom of God. It's not saying we are born again and then sometime later enter the kingdom of God. How can one have the Spirit indwell them and not be in the kingdom of God right then and there? We are baptized with the Spirit, born of the Spirit and sealed with the Spirit all at the same time after putting our faith and trust in Christ.

Eph 1
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Unless you can show that one is born of the Spirit and then repents and believes and then is sealed with the Spirit, I can't agree with the idea that one is born again before being saved and entering the kingdom of God. Being regenerated is the same thing as being saved. It is the regeneration of the Spirit that places us in a state of being saved.

Eph 2
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Notice here that being quickened is the same as being saved. To be quickened is to be regenerated and made spiritually alive. Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously. Salvation is the result of being regenerated.

We can see this even more clearly here:

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

How does God save us and place us in His kingdom? By "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost".

What comes before this regeneration and salvation? Faith.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Scripture clearly teaches that regeneration and salvation come after someone puts their faith in Christ.

Prufrock
Apr 30th 2009, 08:13 PM
Since you are still relatively new to the community let me say welcome!
Thanks! I'm new to this forum, and appreciate your hospitality. However, I was saved nearly forty years ago.


Would you agree to receive Christ means we know and have entered the Kingdom of God?No, I wouldn't agree with that at all. "Receiving Christ" is synonymous with being born again. With all due respect, I think that making two separate acts out of the transaction is unnecessary obfuscation, and leads to no end of theological mischief. When I was saved, God was not "receiving Himself" on my behalf; I was, by the grace of God, receiving Him by an act of the will. I freely and gratefully acknowledge that I could not have done this if the Father had not drawn me (John 6:44), and that the Spirit had been working in my life to reprove me of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16). But it was an act of the will, not a pre-emptive act of "irresistable grace."


The Scripture tells us in Jo 3 that a man must be born again before he can see (know) or enter the Kingdom of God.Excuse me, but you are misquoting the passage. I have yet to see an English translation of the Bible that uses the word "before" in John 3:3 and 3:5. It says, Except a man be born again or Except a man be born of water: the modern versions change "except" to "unless." But no version says, "No man enters the kingdom before he's been born again." Being born again, or receiving Christ is our entrance to the Kingdom of God. They are not two separate acts.


We have a tendency to want to predicate our salvation upon faith, however Scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of grace (Eph 2:8,9). Therefore our faith cannot be the instument by which we are saved, otherwise we would not be saved by grace (Eph 2:5).Thank you again for your reply and your exposition. However, in Eph. 2:8, the antecedent of "it" is not grace; the antecedent is faith. The faith itself is the gift of God. Grace and faith are not synonymous. Every man, woman, and child on earth is, to some degree, a recipient of God's grace; but not all have faith.

Tomlane
Apr 30th 2009, 08:21 PM
RW, I for one would like you to know I appreciate the beautiful truths you are giving about salvation by grace. By the way RW, since there is not one drop of water in your salvation by grace I'm no even thirsty. :bounce:

Tomlane

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 08:44 PM
No, I wouldn't agree with that at all. "Receiving Christ" is synonymous with being born again.

Hi Prufrock,

Let me try this again. You would agree that receiving Christ is to be born again, and being born again means that we have entered the Kingdom of God? Yes?



With all due respect, I think that making two separate acts out of the transaction is unnecessary obfuscation, and leads to no end of theological mischief.

Well I wasn't trying to make two separate acts, apparently I lacked clarity.



When I was saved, God was not "receiving Himself" on my behalf; I was, by the grace of God, receiving Him by an act of the will.

God was not receiving Himself??? According to Scripture all who receive Him are NOT born of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. How then can you say that we receive Him by an act of the will? Unless of course you mean the will of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



I freely and gratefully acknowledge that I could not have done this if the Father had not drawn me (John 6:44), and that the Spirit had been working in my life to reprove me of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16). But it was an act of the will, not a pre-emptive act of "irresistable grace."

Yes it was an act of the will...God's will, and yes irresistable grace!



Excuse me, but you are misquoting the passage. I have yet to see an English translation of the Bible that uses the word "before" in John 3:3 and 3:5. It says, Except a man be born again or Except a man be born of water: the modern versions change "except" to "unless." But no version says, "No man enters the kingdom before he's been born again." Being born again, or receiving Christ is our entrance to the Kingdom of God. They are not two separate acts.

I stand corrected it does not say "before." How does that change the fact that "except a man be born again he cannot see (know) or enter the Kingdom of God"? Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I did not present salvation as two separate acts.



Thank you again for your reply and your exposition. However, in Eph. 2:8, the antecedent of "it" is not grace; the antecedent is faith. The faith itself is the gift of God. Grace and faith are not synonymous.

You are very welcome. I always enjoy the discussions in this forum. I completely agree with you here. Since faith unto salvation is the gift of God, in fact it is listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), how can we possess this faith apart from the indwelling Spirit?



Every man, woman, and child on earth is, to some degree, a recipient of God's grace; but not all have faith.

That's funny, I would argue almost the exact opposite;). While we do find the providence of God over His creation; i.e. He brings the rain on the just as well as the unjust equally, we do not find God's grace extended to objects of His wrath. Would you argue that God loves all men equally? If you do, how would you find comfort in being loved by God, since He will cast many of those whom He supposedly loves into the lake of fire? On the other hand we do find that every man possesses natural faith (like that of the demons), but fallen man does not possess faith unto salvation, for (as you have said) this is the gift of God's grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi Prufrock,

Let me try this again. You would agree that receiving Christ is to be born again, and being born again means that we have entered the Kingdom of God? Yes?



Well I wasn't trying to make two separate acts, apparently I lacked clarity.



God was not receiving Himself??? According to Scripture all who receive Him are NOT born of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. How then can you say that we receive Him by an act of the will? Unless of course you mean the will of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Yes it was an act of the will...God's will, and yes irresistable grace!



I stand corrected it does not say "before." How does that change the fact that "except a man be born again he cannot see (know) or enter the Kingdom of God"? Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I did not present salvation as two separate acts.



You are very welcome. I always enjoy the discussions in this forum. I completely agree with you here. Since faith unto salvation is the gift of God, in fact it is listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), how can we possess this faith apart from the indwelling Spirit?



That's funny, I would argue almost the exact opposite;). While we do find the providence of God over His creation; i.e. He brings the rain on the just as well as the unjust equally, we do not find God's grace extended to objects of His wrath. Would you argue that God loves all men equally? If you do, how would you find comfort in being loved by God, since He will cast many of those whom He supposedly loves into the lake of fire? On the other hand we do find that every man possesses natural faith (like that of the demons), but fallen man does not possess faith unto salvation, for (as you have said) this is the gift of God's grace.

Many Blessings,
RW

Wow!

God does love all men equally; some choose not to love him in return.

People go to hell because they choose to do so in spite of God's love.

Do you really believe that God hates the people in hell?

Wow!

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 09:04 PM
That's funny, I would argue almost the exact opposite;). While we do find the providence of God over His creation; i.e. He brings the rain on the just as well as the unjust equally, we do not find God's grace extended to objects of His wrath. Would you argue that God loves all men equally? If you do, how would you find comfort in being loved by God, since He will cast many of those whom He supposedly loves into the lake of fire? On the other hand we do find that every man possesses natural faith (like that of the demons), but fallen man does not possess faith unto salvation, for (as you have said) this is the gift of God's grace.

Many Blessings,
RWI have a few questions for you. First, I'll quote this passage from Hebrews:

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Do "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" and who later fall away never have the the grace of God extended to them? If not, then what are they falling away from exactly? How is it possible for one to fall away from something that is never even extended or offered to them?

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 09:08 PM
Wow!

God does love all men equally; some choose not to love him in return.

People go to hell because they choose to do so in spite of God's love.

Do you really believe that God hates the people in hell?

Wow!

Rabbi, if God loves all men, He can hate no man. Yet Scripture tells us that He hates all workers of iniquity (Ps 5:5). That is not simply saying He hates the sin but loves the sinner, it is saying He hates those who are workers of iniquity. Just think on that! It means that God would hate every man, since every man is a worker of iniquity, except He chose some men to be the objects of His love and mercy. Praise God that He chooses to save some men or every man would be cast away forever.

How can God hate Esau if He loves all men equally. Don't bother telling me that God simply loves Esau less than He loves Jacob. To hate does not mean to love less. You say people choose to go into the lake of fire...well in a sense I suppose that is true, but if God loves every man why does He not pardon them all in the end? Who is casting them into the lake of fire? Is this any way to treat the people He loves? What kind of God will cast people He loves into everlasting flames? How could we find comfort in being loved by God, if in the end we too (those loved by God) may end up in the flames? They are not choosing to jump in by themselves.

Many Blessings,
RW

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 09:11 PM
Rabbi, if God loves all men, He can hate no man. Yet Scripture tells us that He hates all workers of iniquity (Ps 5:5). That is not simply saying He hates the sin but loves the sinner, it is saying He hates those who are workers of iniquity. Just think on that! It means that God would hate every man, since every man is a worker of iniquity, except He chose some men to be the objects of His love and mercy. Praise God that He chooses to save some men or every man would be cast away forever.

How can God hate Esau if He loves all men equally. Don't bother telling me that God simply loves Esau less than He loves Jacob. To hate does not mean to love less. You say people choose to go into the lake of fire...well in a sense I suppose that is true, but if God loves every man why does He not pardon them all in the end? Who is casting them into the lake of fire? Is this any way to treat the people He loves? What kind of God will cast people He loves into everlasting flames? How could we find comfort in being loved by God, if in the end we too (those loved by God) may end up in the flames? They are not choosing to jump in by themselves.

Many Blessings,
RW

We apparently do not serve the same God.

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 09:14 PM
I have a few questions for you. First, I'll quote this passage from Hebrews:

Hebrews 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Do "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" and who later fall away never have the the grace of God extended to them? If not, then what are they falling away from exactly? How is it possible for one to fall away from something that is never even extended or offered to them?

Eric,

I don't read Heb 6 as Christians being able to fall away. I read "it is impossible" and I believe it. Christ will not go to the cross a second time, but He must if we could lose our salvation. Every time we fall away He would have to be crucified again, but this is not going to happen, because His children are eternally secure in Him.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 09:19 PM
Rabbi, if God loves all men, He can hate no man. Yet Scripture tells us that He hates all workers of iniquity (Ps 5:5). That is not simply saying He hates the sin but loves the sinner, it is saying He hates those who are workers of iniquity. Just think on that!So, He is a hypocrite then? We're supposed to love our enemies but He hates them? I don't think so. Here is that verse from Young's Literal Translation.

5The boastful station not themselves before Thine eyes: Thou hast hated all working iniquity.

Roger, it can't be true that God desires all people to be saved, as is taught in 1 Timothy 2:3-6, and also that He hates some people. God does punish people for their sin and will condemn them for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) but that doesn't mean He hates them. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and desires that they repent before they die (Ezekiel 18:23;33:11).


It means that God would hate every man, since every man is a worker of iniquity, except He chose some men to be the objects of His love and mercy. Praise God that He chooses to save some men or every man would be cast away forever.

How can God hate Esau if He loves all men equally. Don't bother telling me that God simply loves Esau less than He loves Jacob.Why? Because you don't want to be bothered with the truth?

Tell me, does the following passage teach that we are to literally hate our families?

Luke 14
25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Of course not. The word hate clearly can be used in terms of loving less of blessing less, so why deny it?

God does not hate anyone. If He did then John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 would not be true. God so loved the whole world that He sent His only begotten Son to die for the sins of the whole world so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 09:24 PM
Eric,

I don't read Heb 6 as Christians being able to fall away.That's not the issue I'm getting at here. I know that passage is normally brought up in OSAS vs. NOSAS debates but that isn't my reason for bringing that up here. Understand?


I read "it is impossible" and I believe it.What is impossible is for those who were once enlightened to be renewed again unto repentance if they fall away.


Christ will not go to the cross a second time, but He must if we could lose our salvation. Every time we fall away He would have to be crucified again, but this is not going to happen, because His children are eternally secure in Him.

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Many Blessings,
RWRoger, you are missing my point here. I am not saying anything about people losing salvation or not here. I am asking you if those people who were once enlightened (whether they were saved or not) but later fall away were extended the grace of God. Yes or no?

Prufrock
Apr 30th 2009, 09:25 PM
That's funny, I would argue almost the exact opposite;). While we do find the providence of God over His creation; i.e. He brings the rain on the just as well as the unjust equally, we do not find God's grace extended to objects of His wrath. Would you argue that God loves all men equally? If you do, how would you find comfort in being loved by God, since He will cast many of those whom He supposedly loves into the lake of fire? On the other hand we do find that every man possesses natural faith (like that of the demons), but fallen man does not possess faith unto salvation, for (as you have said) this is the gift of God's grace.
Thank you for your gracious reply. The long and the short of it is that you believe in irresistable grace, and I do not - - - although I did for a number of years, when I served in a very Calvinistic Presbyterian church. I have no contempt or superciliousness as regards the Calvinist position; I have simply come to disagree with much of it.

I will surprise you, however, and undoubtedly open an enormous can of slimy, ill-tempered worms, when I say, no, I do not believe that God loves all men equally. I believe that God loved all men, prior to the crucifixion: that's what John 3:16 is all about. But I have searched in vain for a verse stating that God, at the present time, loves all men. (This, too, is a position that I have come to after years of reflection and prayer.) I do not believe, not even for a second, in limited atonement, nor do I believe that God "only loves the elect." But I believe that the love of God for fallen mankind was demonstrated conclusively and comprehensively at Calvary.

To put it bluntly, He has nothing left to prove. I believe that, at this point in time, He loves those who have taken (or will take) refuge in His Son.

It's not about us. It's about Jesus. That's God's priority. Saying that "God loves the sinner but not the sin" is warm and comforting, but inconsistent with the revelation of Scripture as a whole. In this, dear brother, I suspect that you and I may be close to agreement, for which I thank God.

THOM
Apr 30th 2009, 10:08 PM
Greetings Thom,
Thom, do a little research to see how long it took Noah to build the Ark before the flood waters came.

You're claiming it was "120 years" is just part of another myths that has crept into people beliefs down through the years. IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!

Let Scripture do the math:
"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)". Noah was 500 years old when his sons were born;
"Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. (Genesis 7:6)". Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began.

Now, according to Scriptural Math, that seems to be ONLY 100 years. . .tops. What say you???


God did not begin to cut their life expectancy to 120 years. How could that be? Just look at the generations of Noah's son, Shem, after the flood and you will find life expectancy was still far greater than 120 years. Consider Abraham:

Ge 25:7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.

Ps 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


Many Blessings,
RWHere is what I stated, "It has everything to do with what was now going to be the life span/expectancy of mankind." Mankind would begin adecreased amount of years to be alive, compared to what they had been living. I didn't state that it was going to happen all at one.

Blessing to you,
Thom,

RogerW
May 1st 2009, 02:36 AM
You're claiming it was "120 years" is just part of another myths that has crept into people beliefs down through the years. IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL!

Let Scripture do the math:
"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)". Noah was 500 years old when his sons were born;
"Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. (Genesis 7:6)". Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began.

Now, according to Scriptural Math, that seems to be ONLY 100 years. . .tops. What say you???

Here is what I stated, "It has everything to do with what was now going to be the life span/expectancy of mankind." Mankind would begin adecreased amount of years to be alive, compared to what they had been living. I didn't state that it was going to happen all at one.


Thom what I told you was to do a little research to see how long it took to build the ark. Because there is no Scripture that gives us a definitive answer. It is an assumption that cannot be biblically supported saying, "mankind would begin a decreased amount of years to be alive, compared to what they had been living."

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." More literally, "And said Jehovah: Not shall rule my spirit in man forever in their erring, [since] he flesh; and shall be his days a hundred and twenty years."

If this is telling us individual lifespans were being reduced to 120 years, Noah did not comply to this new 'law' - nor did a single patriarch all the way down to Moses. Every single one lived longer than 120 years. It is also contradicted by everyone since who died before 120 years of age. To avoid this dilemma, some, like you claim that the lifespan was to [I]approach 120 years. The verse does not say that, nor do longevity records support this claim - lifespan leveled out at a much lower limit: "The length of our days is seventy years— or eighty, if we have the strength" (Psalm 90:10).

Noah had 120 years warning: This assumes that the instructions were given 20 years before Noah's first son was born, yet the instructions refer to Noah's sons and their wives. This would make it a prophesy to someone who was barren, about their future children. This is not unusual. God made similar promises to Adam, Abraham, Manoah, Zachariah and Elizabeth, even Mary. Noah was unusually old (500 years) before his children were recorded, and such a remarkable fathering age probably means something (like patient endurance for example). It would make sense to assume God made His covenant at the same time as he promised the offspring - just as He did with Abraham. (Gen 17:7). Did God make a covenant with Noah that included children who had yet to be born in the same way He did with Abraham?

Since we are not told exactly when God instructed Noah, the idea is that we cannot pinpoint how long it took to build the Ark. But one thing we can know with certainty, because we do have biblical proof, 120 years cannot be speaking of the life span of individuals. That Noah was given 120 years to build the ark is the most resonable assumption.

Many Blessings,
RW

THOM
May 1st 2009, 02:33 PM
Noah had 120 years warning: This assumes that the instructions were given 20 years before Noah's first son was born, yet the instructions refer to Noah's sons and their wives. This would make it a prophesy to someone who was barren, about their future children. This is not unusual. God made similar promises to Adam, Abraham, Manoah, Zachariah and Elizabeth, even Mary. Noah was unusually old (500 years) before his children were recorded, and such a remarkable fathering age probably means something (like patient endurance for example). It would make sense to assume God made His covenant at the same time as he promised the offspring - just as He did with Abraham. (Gen 17:7). Did God make a covenant with Noah that included children who had yet to be born in the same way He did with Abraham?

Since we are not told exactly when God instructed Noah, the idea is that we cannot pinpoint how long it took to build the Ark. But one thing we can know with certainty, because we do have biblical proof, 120 years cannot be speaking of the life span of individuals. That Noah was given 120 years to build the ark is the most resonable assumption.

Many Blessings,
RW


Let Scripture do the math:
"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)". Noah was 500 years old when his sons were born;
"Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. (Genesis 7:6)". Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began.

Now, according to Scriptural Math, that seems to be ONLY 100 years. . .tops. What say you???

RogerW
May 1st 2009, 05:20 PM
Let Scripture do the math:
"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)". Noah was 500 years old when his sons were born;
"Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. (Genesis 7:6)". Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began.

Now, according to Scriptural Math, that seems to be ONLY 100 years. . .tops. What say you???

Your Scriptural math does not jive with Scriptural evidence...why?

Many Blessings,
RW

divaD
May 1st 2009, 05:56 PM
Let Scripture do the math:
"And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)". Noah was 500 years old when his sons were born;
"Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth. (Genesis 7:6)". Noah was 600 years old when the Flood began.

Now, according to Scriptural Math, that seems to be ONLY 100 years. . .tops. What say you???



Where do the Scriptures ever tell us specifically that Noah was exactly 500 yrs old when God made that statement in verse 3? They don't, but we can actually deduce how old Noah was from Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 7:3.

The only thing that can be factually deduced from the text is, Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth, and that this was 120 yrs after God gave man 120 yrs to live.

But to simply claim God spoke verse 3 when Noah was 500 yrs old..well that's nowhere in the text. Since this story also revolves around Noah's 3 sons, then it's not unreasonable to understand why the author made mention of them, but is has nothing to do with Noah being 500 yrs old when God spoke verse 3 of Gen 6. The logical conclusion is that Noah was 480 yrs old when God gave man 120 yrs prior to destroying man. 480 plus 120 equals 600. And that's exactly how old Noah was when the floods came...600 yrs old.

THOM
May 1st 2009, 06:07 PM
Your Scriptural math does not jive with Scriptural evidence...why?

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, I see where this is going, so I'm going to state the following and be done with it, and you.

You're either calling Scripture a lie, and your so-called evidence ("Noah had 120 years warning: This assumes that the instructions were given 20 years before Noah's first son was born, yet the instructions refer to Noah's sons and their wives. This would make it a prophesy to someone who was barren, about their future children. This is not unusual. God made similar promises to Adam, Abraham, Manoah, Zachariah and Elizabeth, even Mary. Noah was unusually old (500 years) before his children were recorded, and such a remarkable fathering age probably means something (like patient endurance for example). It would make sense to assume God made His covenant at the same time as he promised the offspring - just as He did with Abraham. (Gen 17:7). Did God make a covenant with Noah that included children who had yet to be born in the same way He did with Abraham? Since we are not told exactly when God instructed Noah, the idea is that we cannot pinpoint how long it took to build the Ark. But one thing we can know with certainty, because we do have biblical proof, 120 years cannot be speaking of the life span of individuals. That Noah was given 120 years to build the ark is the most resonable assumption.") the Truth, or you just don't know what you're talking about.

"And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)";

"And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And GOD looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And GOD said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before ME; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. (Genesis 6:10-14)"

"And THE LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. (Genesis 7:1)"

"And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. (Genesis 7:6-7)"


600 years - 500 years = 100 years.


"And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. (Genesis 7:24)"

"And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. (Genesis 8:13-14)"

"And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. (Genesis 9:28-29)"


950-350=600 years.

Be Blessed,
Thom,

RogerW
May 1st 2009, 06:17 PM
Where do the Scriptures ever tell us specifically that Noah was exactly 500 yrs old when God made that statement in verse 3? They don't, but we can actually deduce how old Noah was from Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 7:3.

The only thing that can be factually deduced from the text is, Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth, and that this was 120 yrs after God gave man 120 yrs to live.

But to simply claim God spoke verse 3 when Noah was 500 yrs old..well that's nowhere in the text. Since this story also revolves around Noah's 3 sons, then it's not unreasonable to understand why the author made mention of them, but is has nothing to do with Noah being 500 yrs old when God spoke verse 3 of Gen 6. The logical conclusion is that Noah was 480 yrs old when God gave man 120 yrs prior to destroying man. 480 plus 120 equals 600. And that's exactly how old Noah was when the floods came...600 yrs old.

Hi Diva,

It's nice to know someone else reads it exactly as I do.

Many Blessings,
RW

THOM
May 2nd 2009, 03:40 AM
Where do the Scriptures ever tell us specifically that Noah was exactly 500 yrs old when God made that statement in verse 3? They don't, but we can actually deduce how old Noah was from Genesis 6:3 and Genesis 7:3.

"And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Genesis 5:32)";

"And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And GOD looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And GOD said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before ME; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. (Genesis 6:10-14)"

"And THE LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. (Genesis 7:1)"

"And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. (Genesis 7:6-7)"


600 years - 500 years = 100 years.


"And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days. (Genesis 7:24)"

"And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. (Genesis 8:13-14)"

"And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died. (Genesis 9:28-29)"


950-350=600 years.


Can you see it now?

Walstib
May 2nd 2009, 04:21 AM
Well this is a new point of discussion I have not seen before. Seems pretty trivial in the long run. The point was the word strive more than the number of years if I read everything right. Not something to get too concerned about if people see it differently I think.

Can I help the thread get back on track by suggesting moving past this one point about 20 years? :)



Pssst. THOM.... I can't see anything with the different sizes and underlining, confuses my little brain....:hug:

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