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ZAB
Apr 29th 2009, 01:39 AM
hello, just wondering... what does everyone think about the common 'manifestation of the sons of God' doctrine? And why?

Romans 8:18-22 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now..."

:bible:

crossnote
Apr 29th 2009, 06:01 AM
hello, just wondering... what does everyone think about the common 'manifestation of the sons of God' doctrine? And why?

Romans 8:18-22 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now..."

:bible:

Our new state, in new bodies, freed from the presence of sin? Something never seen before.

bagofseed
Apr 29th 2009, 06:25 AM
Romans 8:18 For I consider that our present sufferings cannot even be compared 23 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n23) to the glory that will be revealed to us. 8:19 For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God 24 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n24) who subjected it – in hope 8:21 that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. 8:23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, 25 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n25) groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, 26 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n26) the redemption of our bodies. 27 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n27) 8:24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance. 28 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Rom&chapter=8#n28)

Sojourner
Apr 29th 2009, 10:59 AM
hello, just wondering... what does everyone think about the common 'manifestation of the sons of God' doctrine? And why? Well, I rejoice in it. Could you provoke us to reply with your thoughts, I mean, we don't have anything to build upon. I mean, I think that it is generally except that we are going to be change into the image and glory of Christ.

"As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Job 17:15

ZAB
Apr 29th 2009, 02:47 PM
Well, I rejoice in it. Could you provoke us to reply with your thoughts, I mean, we don't have anything to build upon. I mean, I think that it is generally except that we are going to be change into the image and glory of Christ.

"As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Job 17:15

Well, I think you are right. Generally, this doctrine simply argues that we, as God's "children", will eventually come forth into perfection as His matured "sons". Perfection simply means, "completion; graduation". It's not anything "superhuman". It simply is finishing the race and winning the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (1 Cor 9:24; Phil 3:12-14). To better understand this theme of sonship throughout Romans, we must understand the Roman law of adoption:

Redemption speaks of our initial salvation, that is, the redemption of our spirit man (Heb 12:23). Sonship speaks of being instituted or recognized as a matured son. Sonship is our potential in God. According to Roman custom (Gal 4:1-2), at a certain time appointed by law, the male child in the family would be formally and legally adopted (i.e. placed in the position of a legal son and given all the privileges of a son). The legal ceremony of adoption did not bring one into the family; it only placed a child of the family as a recognized son in the eyes of Roman law. So we see then, that we are born again into the “family” of God, but we are matured into “sons” by the Spirit (Rom 12:1-2; 2 Cor 3:18). Vincent says, “Sonship is the process of legal adoption by which the chosen heir becomes not only entitled to the deterioration of the property, to the civil status, to the burdens (Matt 26:37) as well as the rights of the adopter – but he became, as it were, his other self, one with him...” The child is, for all intents and purposes, his father. They share in suffering, glory, name and character.

What is also taught someplaces is the idea that once a company (remnant/firstfruits) of "sons" reach this potential in God, they will then be "manifested" to the earth, for the sole purpose of leading the lacksadaisical church into fullness as well. And not only the remainder of the body of Christ, but the world too. That's why Romans 8 talks about the whole of creation is groaning and trevailing, waiting for this to come forth. The word "manifestation" simply means, "the appearing". Jesus will appear in them in glory (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Psalm 67:1-2, 7 says, "God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. [in order] That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations... and all the ends of the earth shall fear him."

One translations says, "the earth is waiting, standing on tip toes..."

Interesting huh?

bagofseed
Apr 30th 2009, 05:38 AM
Wow, this is getting real good.
I think I have a new study topic in inheritance.

Gal (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Gal&chapter=4#1) 4:1 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Gal&chapter=4&verse=1)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Judeans [/URL]who had believed him, “If you continue to follow my teaching, (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=8#n65)you are really my disciples 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 8:33 “We are descendants (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=8#n67)of Abraham,” they replied, “and have never been anyone’s slaves! How can you say, (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=8#n70)‘You will become free’?” 8:34 Jesus answered them, “I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=8#n72)of sin. 8:35 The slave does not remain in the family forever, but the son remains forever. 8:36 So if the son (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=8#n76)sets you free, you will be really free.
"sons" reach this potential in God, they will then be "manifested" to the earth, for the sole purpose of leading the lackadaisical church into fullness as well. And not only the remainder of the body of Christ, but the world too.

Below is a verse that has helped bring me to a similar understanding, most of my life I have been falsely taught in the church that you will always sin until you die, but God has freed me from such an incapacitating lie and caused me to see the truth.

1 Peter 4:1-2 So, since Christ suffered in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same attitude, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin, (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Pe&chapter=4#n1)in that he spends the rest of his time [URL="http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Pe&chapter=4#n3"]on earth concerned about the will of God and not human desires.

ZAB
Apr 30th 2009, 02:16 PM
Wow, this is getting real good.
I think I have a new study topic in inheritance.


Below is a verse that has helped bring me to a similar understanding, most of my life I have been falsely taught in the church that you will always sin until you die, but God has freed me from such an incapacitating lie and caused me to see the truth.

1 Peter 4:1-2 So, since Christ suffered in the flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same attitude, because the one who has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin, in that he spends the rest of his time on earth concerned about the will of God and not human desires.

haha, AMEN! I agree.
Here's some related verses:

Ezekiel 16:41 "And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more."

Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

Isaiah 1:21-27 "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."

Jesus said, "for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (Jn 14:30). I want to be like Him!

http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

ZAB
Apr 30th 2009, 02:17 PM
So, does anyone have any thoughts regarding the "manifestation" part?

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 04:10 AM
IT reminds me of an old dream.

In my dream I was like an arms dealer.

I and the others with me where hidden away in a safe house.
From here we could shoot at anyone passing by, it was like they would be hit but would have no idea where it came from.

I was trying to arm everyone with High Power Rifles. (truth)
Many where fearful to even take up a weapon not believing that they where actually in a safe place. Fearful of being seen or found out.

I was also given two pistols, one was for now the other for later.
Their names where lugger and rugger.

The point is we are hidden away and being quipped for a day to be shown, made an example of for everyone to see.(through all these things we overwhelmingly conquer)

The world can not see us for what we are because we are immature.
We immature sons, we are just like the salves.

Many people are opposed to God, but are seemingly unaware of it because God is not exposed because of our lack.

Wondering that it might be a time coming where God will be undeniable to everyone, separating the sheep and the goats in the process.

Mar (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mar&chapter=4#22) 4:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mar&chapter=4&verse=22)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
For nothing is hidden except to be revealed, and nothing concealed except to be brought to light.

ZAB
May 1st 2009, 05:11 AM
Thank God that His name will one day be gloriously vindicated!
Hab 2:14 "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Other translations say, "the whole earth shall know the glory of the Lord".


Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn 12:32). I believe a large portion of the world is not saved today simply because Jesus has not been properly "lifted up" in us; He is inadequately represented on a coprporate scale.
This verse refers to His crucifixion, but this place of death is to be daily lived in His people too. When this truly happens, O what a wonder!

Jn 1:7 "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe."

Cool dream. We're all going to get a Holy Ghost pistol! YEAH!

Phil 2:10-11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

ZAB
May 1st 2009, 05:13 AM
There's something cool from Isaiah regarding this topic that I'll have to share with you soon. It's pretty powerful! For now, off to bed :sleeping:. Bless you.

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 05:41 AM
NASB © (http://dev.bible.org/drupal/Bible_Copyrights)
biblegateway 2Ch 16:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=49&search=2Ch+16:9)
"For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His.

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 05:43 AM
Just chatting about it gets me excited!

Soon Lord Soon!

ZAB
May 4th 2009, 03:43 PM
Isaiah 41:17-20 – the ministry of the sons of God.

The context of these verses is very important to our understanding them. Isaiah was speaking and prophesying to the exiled Jews in Babylon. Their country, city and temple had been laid waste. He was admonishing them to put their confidence in God, to bring them out. The prophet represents himself as bringing consolation to them in this situation; particularly by the assurance that their long captivity was about to end; that they were about to be restored to their own land, and that their trials were to be succeeded by triumphs.
It must be realized that what was (and is) natural to the natural Jew speaks to us, the new man (made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles), on a higher spiritual plane (1 Cor 15:46; Col 3:10; Gal 6:15). So when Isaiah refers to these things, we can interpret it for us spiritually. We must be able to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Tim 2:15). The Bible says, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Prov 25:2).

Millions of believers are in spiritual Babylon today (Rev 17), committing spiritual adultery, their personal temples laid waste, waiting to be awakened and quickened by the presence of the true and living God. The pacifier of mere religion has wounded and bound them. The unsaved are no different. A simple move of God would turn the earth towards Him. The Bible says, “Draw me and we will run after thee” (Song 1:4).

Now, before we look at the particular Scripture verses, let’s observe something quickly. Many, many times in the Bible, spiritual men and women are likened to trees. The natural characteristics of a tree depict the spiritual character of Godly men and women, i.e. strength, deep foundations, endurance through storms, the ability to survive on very little sustenance, the ability to store water, the ability to provide shade and shelter, and the ability to bring forth fruit in season. Here is Scriptural evidence:

1. “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper” (Ps 1:1-3).

2. “And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses” (Isa 44:4).

3. “Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit” (Jer 17:7-8).

4. “The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God. They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing; To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him” (Ps 92:12-15).

5. Actually, Jesus was likened to a tree Himself (Song 2:3; 8:5; Rev 2:7; Gen 2:9; Isa 4:2; Jn 15:1-8).

Now, let’s observe the verses in Isaiah:
“When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” (41:17-20).

First, the problem is presented:
“When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst…”
Then, God gives the solution:
“I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together…”
The result:
“That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.”

These trees (as a type of the sons of God) are able to minister to a dead and dying world by the substance that God has deposited and entrusted to them, i.e. living water. The Bible says that “In the last day, that great day of the feast [the feast of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” (Jn 7:37-38). I believe the sons of God will have this same ministry. They will possess the heart of their Father; they will be one with Him, in His glorious image.

Notice that these “trees of righteousness” are planted in the wilderness and in the desert. They have matured to the extent that they can meet creation where they are, just like Jesus did. He never was too “spiritual” to relate to people. He met them at their level, and then elevated them higher! He was living water to a thirsty soul.
The result of such a ministry is so wonderful. “That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” (Isa 41:20). The glory of God will be made known. Jesus will be glorified! This is the ministry of the sons.


There are many, many more pictures of this throughout the Bible. I will post more soon.
Bless you.

bagofseed
May 8th 2009, 01:55 AM
I believe the sons of God will have this same ministry. They will possess the heart of their Father; they will be one with Him, in His glorious image.

Yes, to become partakers of the divine nature, after having put aside sin.

One reason I suspect we do not see the power of God manifest in us is because of His mercy.

We have yet to resist sin to the point of shedding blood.

To suffer in the flesh, to cease from sin.

I consider the verse about those who have tasted of the power of the kingdom to come and have again fallen away.

I consider my life and know my Fathers mercy.

So many are deceived, having been taught that the practice of sin will remain until our physical deaths.
Many saints are busy living down to such a low demonic standard.
They are praying for holiness but not believing it possible in this life, not even possible for God to make it so.
So they receive nothing as per God's word because of the unbelief planted in their hearts by those who have abandoned the call to holiness and the fullness of the stature that is in Christ Jesus.

Be Holy.

ZAB
May 8th 2009, 02:13 AM
I think you are right, bagofseed. So many people are decieved and "numb" to our potential in God through Jesus Christ. We simply cannot allow the corporate failings of the church throughout history to influence us in our present walks with God into holiness and completion. It is just like you said: a low demonic standard. We haven't seen it, and therefore we assume it is impossible. God help us.
Thank you for your posts. God bless you.

Watchmen
May 8th 2009, 02:13 AM
hello, just wondering... what does everyone think about the common 'manifestation of the sons of God' doctrine? And why?

Romans 8:18-22 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now..."

:bible:


Our new state, in new bodies, freed from the presence of sin? Something never seen before.Short, sweet, and true, I cannot wait for the resurrection/rapture, when we will receive our perfected bodies. :thumbsup:

bagofseed
May 8th 2009, 03:08 AM
Joh (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=14#12) 14:12 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=14&verse=12)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father.

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