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Partaker of Christ
Apr 30th 2009, 02:14 PM
Old Covenant:

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

New Covenant:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 02:56 PM
It certainly takes man's feeble attempt out of the way.

ZAB
Apr 30th 2009, 03:11 PM
The new is a covenant between the Father and the Son. Man cannot keep covenant; that has been proven.

-Psalm 89:27-37 with Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:2, 6

-Jeremiah 32:40 – an everlasting covenant (Hebrews 5:9 "eternal salvation")

-Hebrews 13:20-21; Psalm 105:10; Isaiah 54:8-10; 55:3; 61:8; Ezekiel 16:60; Psalm 111:5-9; Isaiah 59:20-21; Hosea 2:16-20; 2 Samuel 23:5.

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 03:44 PM
The new is a covenant between the Father and the Son. Man cannot keep covenant; that has been proven.


Actually, it is between:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

decrumpit
Apr 30th 2009, 03:51 PM
Actually, it is between:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Foreshadowing the Christ, am I correct?

ZAB
Apr 30th 2009, 04:42 PM
Foreshadowing the Christ, am I correct?

Yes, you are correct. Read Psalm 89:27-37 with Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:2, 6. This says that the covenant is with the "firstborn" or "first begotten", and that Jesus is that Man. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual (1 Cor 2:13). When the Bible says in Jeremiah that the covenant is "with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah", it means that we are hidden in the Son in covenantal terms. He is the mediator (Heb 8:6). Thayer's Greek dictionary defines a mediator as "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant".
It is only "with us" in that we must believe in faith that through Him it was accomplished! He does the work, and we reap the benefits. That's what it means to be a "refuge". Jesus is our refuge from the wrath of God (Heb 6:18; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Cor 5:21). He's paid the price, therefore we are made accepted in the Beloved (Eph 1:6).

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 07:22 PM
Yes, you are correct. Read Psalm 89:27-37 with Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:2, 6. This says that the covenant is with the "firstborn" or "first begotten", and that Jesus is that Man. We must interpret Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual (1 Cor 2:13). When the Bible says in Jeremiah that the covenant is "with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah", it means that we are hidden in the Son in covenantal terms. He is the mediator (Heb 8:6). Thayer's Greek dictionary defines a mediator as "one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant".
It is only "with us" in that we must believe in faith that through Him it was accomplished! He does the work, and we reap the benefits. That's what it means to be a "refuge". Jesus is our refuge from the wrath of God (Heb 6:18; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Cor 5:21). He's paid the price, therefore we are made accepted in the Beloved (Eph 1:6).


The passages you cite in colossians and hebrews are not related to the covenant spoken of by Jeremiah. Israel and Judah refers to the split of the kingdom. Yes, Messiah is the mediator, but it does not exclude the role of Israel or Judah in the covenant.

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 07:23 PM
The passages you cite in colossians and hebrews are not related to the covenant spoken of by Jeremiah. Israel and Judah refers to the split of the kingdom. Yes, Messiah is the mediator, but it does not exclude the role of Israel or Judah in the covenant.

Now I'm confused.

How different covenants are currently operational, and if more than one, with whom are they operational?

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 07:27 PM
Now I'm confused.

How different covenants are currently operational, and if more than one, with whom are they operational?


Rabbi, I would be shocked if you did know the biblical references to the different covenants, and to whom they are made.

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 07:35 PM
Rabbi, I would be shocked if you did know the biblical references to the different covenants, and to whom they are made.

Then you must be tingly all over right now.

I am aware of a number of covenants that were made that are no longer valid, yet your response indicated at least two different covenants which you believe to be in effect today, if not three or four.

I'm having trouble tracking the players without a scorecard.

BroRog
Apr 30th 2009, 07:38 PM
Now I'm confused.

How different covenants are currently operational, and if more than one, with whom are they operational?

1. God made a covenant with mankind that he would not destroy the earth by water. It's still in effect.

2. God made two covenants with Abraham, one contingent and one not contingent. These are still in effect.

3. God made a perpetual covenant with David, that a man from his line will not cease to be a king of Israel. This is still in effect.

4. God made a perpetual covenant with Levi, that a son of Levi would not cease from offering sacrifices to God.

5. God made a perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel, that the Sabbath Day would be a sign between him and them.

6. God made a perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel that he would be their God and that they would be his people.

7. God has yet to make his new perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel that he would be their God and that they would be his people, not like the one they broke, but he will forgive their iniquities and write his law on their hearts.

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 07:38 PM
I am aware of a number of covenants that were made that are no longer valid, yet your response indicated at least two different covenants which you believe to be in effect today, if not three or four.


No, I was referring to the covenant referred to in Jeremiah and Hebrews. You know, the New covenant.

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 07:41 PM
1. God made a covenant with mankind that he would not destroy the earth by water. It's still in effect.

2. God made two covenants with Abraham, one contingent and one not contingent. These are still in effect.

3. God made a perpetual covenant with David, that a man from his line will not cease to be a king of Israel. This is still in effect.

4. God made a perpetual covenant with Levi, that a son of Levi would not cease from offering sacrifices to God.

5. God made a perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel, that the Sabbath Day would be a sign between him and them.

6. God made a perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel that he would be their God and that they would be his people.

7. God has yet to make his new perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel that he would be their God and that they would be his people, not like the one they broke, but he will forgive their iniquities and write his law on their hearts.

Then someone better tell the writer of Hebrews that some Levite disagrees with him (or her!) There is no perpetual covenant regarding sacrifice. There is no Levite offering sacrifices to God now.

I don't see Jesus in here anywhere....so which covenant does a poor white cracker gentile fall under?

Emanate
Apr 30th 2009, 07:42 PM
7. God has yet to make his new perpetual covenant with the nation of Israel that he would be their God and that they would be his people, not like the one they broke, but he will forgive their iniquities and write his law on their hearts.


Yipes! "Paul (or whomever)" was wrong in Hebrews 8?

ZAB
Apr 30th 2009, 07:51 PM
The passages you cite in colossians and hebrews are not related to the covenant spoken of by Jeremiah. Israel and Judah refers to the split of the kingdom. Yes, Messiah is the mediator, but it does not exclude the role of Israel or Judah in the covenant.

You are right. These passages are not related to the covenant. They simply identify the "firstborn/first begotten" as Jesus. And if Jesus is seen as "the firstborn" (David being a type), then the covenant described in Psalm 89 can be seen as between the Father and the Son. That was my point.
The split of the kingdom has nothing to do with the new covenant. That is an earthly thing, not heavenly. This new covenant is born from above:
Gal 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
All earthly and temporal covenantal relations consumate in the new and everlasting covenant. The everlasting covenant is that covenant made in eternity, before time began, in the counsels of the eternal Godhead, between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It was made before the creation of man and the entrance of sin into the human race. It embodies, as an all-encompassing covenant, God's complete plan involving creation and redemption. It is the heavenly foundational covenant in eternity for all covenants revealed in time; The substance of the shadow, if you will. Man was not a party to it, but the object of it.

RogerW
Apr 30th 2009, 08:04 PM
You are right. These passages are not related to the covenant. They simply identify the "firstborn/first begotten" as Jesus. And if Jesus is seen as "the firstborn" (David being a type), then the covenant described in Psalm 89 can be seen as between the Father and the Son. That was my point.
The split of the kingdom has nothing to do with the new covenant. That is an earthly thing, not heavenly. This new covenant is born from above:
Gal 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
All earthly and temporal covenantal relations consumate in the new and everlasting covenant. The everlasting covenant is that covenant made in eternity, before time began, in the counsels of the eternal Godhead, between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It was made before the creation of man and the entrance of sin into the human race. It embodies, as an all-encompassing covenant, God's complete plan involving creation and redemption. It is the heavenly foundational covenant in eternity for all covenants revealed in time; The substance of the shadow, if you will. Man was not a party to it, but the object of it.

Greetings Z Alan Bridges and welcome to the community!

I can only say Amen! Amen! and Amen! Very well stated.

Excellent thread partaker, thanks for starting it!

Many Blessings,
RW

BroRog
Apr 30th 2009, 08:07 PM
Then someone better tell the writer of Hebrews that some Levite disagrees with him (or her!) There is no perpetual covenant regarding sacrifice. There is no Levite offering sacrifices to God now.

I don't see Jesus in here anywhere....so which covenant does a poor white cracker gentile fall under?

The author of Hebrews says that while Jesus was on earth, he could not be a priest. Instead, he took his blood, as it were, to the heavenly throne.

The Gentiles are certainly under the Covenant God made with mankind not to destroy the earth with a flood. The Gentiles fall under one of God's covenants with Abraham, as he made Abraham the father of many nations. The Gentiles are saved on the basis that they share the faith of Abraham.

BroRog
Apr 30th 2009, 08:08 PM
Yipes! "Paul (or whomever)" was wrong in Hebrews 8?

Wrong about what?

Tomlane
Apr 30th 2009, 08:09 PM
I believe confusion often times comes when we try to apply more than one covenant to us in this time of the Gentiles. For the sake of simplicity if we focus on the covenant that makes salvation possible for us which is the Abrahamic covenant and realize the new Covenant applies to when Christ comes back for then all Israel will believe and know Christ is God. That was set aside just as Israel was set aside until the time of the Gentiles has come.

Tomlane

keck553
Apr 30th 2009, 08:28 PM
Then someone better tell the writer of Hebrews that some Levite disagrees with him (or her!) There is no perpetual covenant regarding sacrifice. There is no Levite offering sacrifices to God now.

I don't see Jesus in here anywhere....so which covenant does a poor white cracker gentile fall under?

Thanks for the good laugh!! That was a blessing indeed.

I would submit that Yeshua's sacrifice is indeed perpetual and He is a much, much, I would say infinately better High Priest than any Levite, wouldn't you say? What i am saying is that a better Sacrifice, a better Intercessor, a better High Priest and a better Administrator of Torah may appear as a change to us, and I am so grateful i live in this side of offering my pet sheep, but in essence nothing has been rendered obsolete. My High Priest still intercedes for me in the Holy of Holies. In my repentance, my High Priest still atones for my trangressions with the most precious sprinkling of blood. In my love for Him, I simply don't want Him to sprinkle too much of it on my behalf, and I certainly do not want to make His sacrifice the object of my vanity.

RabbiKnife
Apr 30th 2009, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the good laugh!! That was a blessing indeed.

I would submit that Yeshua's sacrifice is indeed perpetual and He is a much, much, I would say infinately better High Priest than any Levite, wouldn't you say? What i am saying is that a better Sacrifice, a better Intercessor, a better High Priest and a better Administrator of Torah may appear as a change to us, and I am so grateful i live in this side of offering my pet sheep, but in essence nothing has been rendered obsolete. My High Priest still intercedes for me in the Holy of Holies. In my repentance, my High Priest still atones for my trangressions with the most precious sprinkling of blood. In my love for Him, I simply don't want Him to sprinkle too much of it on my behalf, and I certainly do not want to make His sacrifice the object of my vanity.

I must respectfully disagree. Christ was sacrificed once and for all. The blood was shed and presented to the Father once and for all. There is no more Holy of Holies. My sins -- all sins -- are already atoned for, there is nothing for which to atone.

And, God knows I love you, Keck, but I have no idea what an "Adminstrator of Torah" is!

keck553
Apr 30th 2009, 10:58 PM
I must respectfully disagree. Christ was sacrificed once and for all. The blood was shed and presented to the Father once and for all. There is no more Holy of Holies. My sins -- all sins -- are already atoned for, there is nothing for which to atone.

And, God knows I love you, Keck, but I have no idea what an "Adminstrator of Torah" is!

LOL. What you said in disagreement as a rebuttal to what I said I don't disagree with, so in some sense we do agree, but probably not on the choice of words. I think you will agree we answer to Jesus and not to Torah. He is the Author after all. I don't think it's confusing to understand all things have been put under Messiah, including Torah. That makes Jesus the default administrator of Torah and everything else under the sun (and all the other suns in the universe).

losthorizon
May 1st 2009, 01:05 AM
I think you will agree we answer to Jesus and not to Torah. He is the Author after all. I don't think it's confusing to understand all things have been put under Messiah, including Torah. That makes Jesus the default administrator of Torah and everything else under the sun (and all the other suns in the universe).

The Torah (the law of Moses) was fulfilled and abolished when Jesus died on the cross. God gave the ‘Mosaical Law’ with its Levitical priesthood to a certain people (the Hebrew nation) for a specific purpose - for a specific period of time (until the cross) and now we have a New Covenant ratified with His blood and a new priesthood with a new High Priest (Jesus Christ). This change in the priesthood necessitated a change also in the law – the Torah was given to the Jews only and is not binding on Christians. Christians today live and die under the Law of Christ.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12 (KJV)

Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6: 2

To those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. 1 Corinthians 9: 2

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 02:46 AM
Paul is the same writer who said:

Heb 8:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+8:8&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

Then he said:

Ro 9:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+9:4&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,


And of the Gentiles he says:
Romans 11:11-19 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:11&sr=1&t=nas) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:12&sr=1&t=nas) Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:13&sr=1&t=nas) But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:14&sr=1&t=nas) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:15&sr=1&t=nas) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:16&sr=1&t=nas) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:17&sr=1&t=nas) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:18&sr=1&t=nas) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:19&sr=1&t=nas) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."




Gentiles do not possess their own covenant, they have a share in one that they have been grafted into. There is no promise or prophecy of the Gentile receiving their own covenant. The covenant was started in Jerusalem with the Jews and will end in the same manner.

ZAB
May 1st 2009, 03:29 AM
Greetings Z Alan Bridges and welcome to the community!

I can only say Amen! Amen! and Amen! Very well stated.

Excellent thread partaker, thanks for starting it!

Many Blessings,
RW

Hello RW, greetings to you. Thanks for the kind words.
Bless you,
ZAB

BroRog
May 1st 2009, 04:19 AM
Paul is the same writer who said:

Heb 8:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+8:8&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

Then he said:

Ro 9:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+9:4&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,


And of the Gentiles he says:
Romans 11:11-19 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:11&sr=1&t=nas) I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:12&sr=1&t=nas) Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:13&sr=1&t=nas) But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:14&sr=1&t=nas) if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:15&sr=1&t=nas) For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:16&sr=1&t=nas) If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:17&sr=1&t=nas) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:18&sr=1&t=nas) do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+11:19&sr=1&t=nas) You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."




Gentiles do not possess their own covenant, they have a share in one that they have been grafted into. There is no promise or prophecy of the Gentile receiving their own covenant. The covenant was started in Jerusalem with the Jews and will end in the same manner.


Gentiles are not grafted into a covenant. They don't have a covenant with God.

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 05:09 AM
Gentiles are not grafted into a covenant. They don't have a covenant with God.


You know what I mean................ just symantics. I am being a gentile to the gentile.................. LOL :lol:

I know the gentile tree is wild and has no place in the kingdom....... One must be born again from above as a begotten of the true Israel of God. However, who wants to go there today, I am trying to watch the game at the same time............. Go Rockets........... Yao is doing his thing.

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