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Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 05:46 PM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Sojourner
Apr 30th 2009, 09:37 PM
Baptized = joined, united, identified [in christ]; for a simple answer.

Firstfruits
Apr 30th 2009, 09:42 PM
If we are in Christ and we and we return to what we had before and then return again we are as such crucifying Christ over again.

Heb 6:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We either walk in him as being dead and is now alive or we do not. We cannot be both dead and alive.

Firstfruits

John146
Apr 30th 2009, 09:44 PM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits
I would assume it means the same as being baptized into His body.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Instead of "by one Spirit" it can mean "with one Spirit" and probably does since we know that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. So, my answer to your question is that it means to be baptized with the Spirit into His body, which is the church.

kay-gee
Apr 30th 2009, 10:47 PM
Achieved by immersion in water.

all the best...

Tomlane
May 1st 2009, 12:00 AM
Sojourner stated:



Baptized = joined, united, identified [in christ]; for a simple answer.

Now I have a simple question for you. :rofl: is that being joined by water or is that done by God with spirit?

You only have a 50% of getting it wrong. :pp

Tomlane

Sojourner
May 1st 2009, 12:07 AM
Sojourner stated:
Now I have a simple question for you. :rofl: is that being joined by water or is that done by God with spirit?

You only have a 50% of getting it wrong. :pp

TomlaneThe Gaunlet Hath Been Thrown Down!

losthorizon
May 1st 2009, 01:37 AM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

To be baptized “into Christ” – to be baptized “into his death” – is a picture of the believers baptism in water (a burial). Christ bore our sins in his body that we might die to sin and this is what we see in the ordinance of baptism. The penitent believer dies to sin through obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ and is buried with Christ as he/she goes under the watery grave of baptism - baptism is like death, burial and resurrection. The one baptized rises up out of the water a new creature in Christ Jesus – born anew…born again of “water and the Spirit”.
Paul has drawn a picture of what baptism is like. In Romans 6:4 he tells us that baptism is like death, burial and resurrection. (See also Col_2:12). The very symbolism of baptism demands going down into and rising from the water. It is impossible to picture burial and resurrection by pouring or sprinkling. Immersion does do it, and nothing else does. ~ Baptism by A.T. Robertson

Firstfruits
May 1st 2009, 08:09 AM
Sojourner stated:



Now I have a simple question for you. :rofl: is that being joined by water or is that done by God with spirit?

You only have a 50% of getting it wrong. :pp

Tomlane

By the Spirit.:hug:

1 Cor 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 1st 2009, 11:36 AM
If we are not baptised into Christs death or that we are not dead with Christ, then how can we arise from the dead with regards to the following scripture?

Eph 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 1st 2009, 03:14 PM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Here is a scripture we constantly repeat in my church. :)

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

A person does not have the robe of righteousness fit for the wedding feast without baptism. We must "put on Christ". Meaning follow Him through baptism to death and resurrection.

John146
May 1st 2009, 06:36 PM
Achieved by immersion in water.

all the best...Where does it say that the baptism that Jesus performs (baptism with the Holy Spirit) is achieved by immersion in water? We have examples of people being baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 even before they were baptized in water, so it's clearly not the same baptism.

Teke
May 1st 2009, 10:14 PM
Where does it say that the baptism that Jesus performs (baptism with the Holy Spirit) is achieved by immersion in water? We have examples of people being baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 even before they were baptized in water, so it's clearly not the same baptism.

The apostle Paul says there is only one.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Tomlane
May 1st 2009, 10:33 PM
We worship God in spirit. That is just the opposite of the physical like in physical baptism and physical circumcision.

Colossians 2:11 *In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 *¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,

We can only be buried with Christ in baptism and risen with Christ through faith of the operation of God not man with what is physical. Is so clear.

Since this satisfies the heavenly court, then is should satisfy us as well. Thsoe under the law will die by the law.

Galatians 5:18 *But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ordinances such as water baptism real or imagined are part of law.

Philippians 3:2 *Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3 *For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Tomlane

theBelovedDisciple
May 1st 2009, 10:53 PM
And if Christ [be] in you,

""" the body [is] dead ............because of sin;""""

but the Spirit [is] life.......... because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,

He that raised up Christ from the dead

shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit

that dwelleth in you.

we are debtors not to live after the flesh.. but to be led of the Spirit of the Living God.. if we do mortify those things done in the flesh.. which is to 'put to death'.. crucify... mortify...

Butch5
May 2nd 2009, 12:42 AM
Sojourner stated:



Now I have a simple question for you. :rofl: is that being joined by water or is that done by God with spirit?

You only have a 50% of getting it wrong. :pp

Tomlane

It's both, water and Spirit.

Butch5
May 2nd 2009, 12:59 AM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits



Hi Ff,

You should have quoted a few more verses, because Paul clearly tells us what this means, He is referring to water baptism.


Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We have been planted with Him. To be planted means to be put into the ground, this is the image of water baptism.

Look at this word likeness, the Greek word is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G3667 ὁμοίωμα homoiōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something 1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation 1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

Paul says that we are planted in the image or representation of His death. An image is something that is seen, as is a representation, A representation is an image of something seen, in place of something not seen.

Representation,

a presentation to the mind in the form of an idea or image
a creation that is a visual or tangible rendering of someone or something
the act of representing; standing in for someone or some group and speaking with authority in their behalf

So, this baptism that Paul speaks of is a visible baptism, only water baptism is visible, Spiritual baptism is not visible, therefore this passage is speaking of water baptism.

fuzzi
May 2nd 2009, 01:44 AM
What does it mean to be baptised in Christ?

Please answer according to the scriptures.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
There have been several good posts in answer to your question, but I'll add what I believe...after all, it is a discussion board, right? ;)

We are dead in our sins, and in the uncircumcision of our flesh (Colossians 2:11). When we get saved, when we accept the Lord's offer of salvation, we are circumcised by Christ, a circumcision made without hands (not referring to circumcision of the flesh), but by Christ putting off the sins of our flesh. Christ circumcises our hearts (Jeremiah 4:4), and He quickens us together with Him.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:9-11)

If you are saved, the Spirit of God lives within you, you are in the Spirit.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; …
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:1, 4-6)

We were dead in our sins, but have been quickened, made alive by God, together with Christ.

So, what is being baptized in Christ? When Christ died, was He quickened, made alive, by water baptism?


Where does it say that the baptism that Jesus performs (baptism with the Holy Spirit) is achieved by immersion in water?
It doesn't.

”But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:” (Matthew 20:22, 23)

What was the cup? That which Jesus asked to pass from Him at Gethsename.

What was the baptism Jesus spoke of? Not water baptism. Jesus had already been baptized by John.

John the Baptist said “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” (Mark 1:8)

We are baptized with the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.

”For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)

We are all baptized into one body with Christ by one Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" (Romans 6:3-8)

David2
May 2nd 2009, 05:31 AM
COL 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Lets be honnest and true to the Scriptures. What baptism is this verse talking about?

1. The word "having been buried..." clearly shows that the thought is carried over from the previous verse. Verse 11 talks about our spiritual circumcision which is a very significant reality and a powerful fact in our faith. But how did this come about? Verse 12 gives the answer: "having been buried with him in baptism" Thus: The great spiritual truth of verse 11 is further clarified and proven in verse 12. The two verses are talking of one and the same thing. The baptism of verse 12 is just as spiritual as the circumcision of verse 11. Water can't give the spiritual experience of these verses. Only Christ can give it and whatever He gives, can only be accepted by faith and not by any physical means.

2. And what about the word "buried"? Is water baptism a burial? Is there one single verse in the Bible where water baptism was ministered where it was also called a burial? Water baptism was never a burial. Some would refer to Romans 6, but that is not water at all. Romans 6 talks about a baptism (and burial) by which we are united to Christ. We are certainly not united to Christ by water.

But please take note: The Bible speaks clearly of another burial (and baptism) which does have the power to unite us to Christ, and this one is not water. This is Christ's baptism in His own death. He had a cup to drink which is also called baptism (Matt. 20:22,23 and Luke 12:50). Scriptures have spoken and we should listen. The only baptism in the Bible that is also called a burial is this one in In Matthew and Luke and it does not have anything to do with water.

3. The most important proof that the baptism of Col. 2:12 is not water, is the way it is accepted. How do we get this baptism of Col. 2:12? Do we go to a pastor or a Church that practise immersion? Not at all. Our verse clearly gives the instructions: "through faith in the working of God", and only that. I think that is clear enough. Everything in these verses is just spiritual. In fact, is is one of the main themes of Col. 2 to clarify the fact that rituals and ceremonies have passed away. Verse 11 said it already that it is not done by human hands and now verse 12 adds to that: "through faith in the working of God". If you believe that verse 11 and 12 is the working of God in heaven and not a ritual of a Church on earth, then praise the Lord!. Not many Christians understand this spiritual reality.

4. Did you notice the link between circumcised and buried? We have spoken about the burial. Please take note that the word is in the past tense and passive mode. Past passive nearly always indicate something not to be done by man, but having been done once and for all for us by our Lord and Saviour. The Holy Spirit is the one that baptised you as He is also the only one that can identify and unite you with the burial of Christ. Circumcised and buried are in the same verbal form and are complements of one another. The two took place in the same time historically and they have the same meaning to us today. The one is as spiritual as the other. Please don't fall back and look for a physical circumcision and baptism while the pure spiritual working of God is being offered to you.

John146
May 2nd 2009, 05:34 AM
The apostle Paul says there is only one.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,There's only one that places us into the body of Christ. Which baptism does 1 Cor 12:13 say that is?

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 12:23 PM
There have been several good posts in answer to your question, but I'll add what I believe...after all, it is a discussion board, right? ;)

We are dead in our sins, and in the uncircumcision of our flesh (Colossians 2:11). When we get saved, when we accept the Lord's offer of salvation, we are circumcised by Christ, a circumcision made without hands (not referring to circumcision of the flesh), but by Christ putting off the sins of our flesh. Christ circumcises our hearts (Jeremiah 4:4), and He quickens us together with Him.

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:9-11)

If you are saved, the Spirit of God lives within you, you are in the Spirit.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; …
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:1, 4-6)

We were dead in our sins, but have been quickened, made alive by God, together with Christ.

So, what is being baptized in Christ? When Christ died, was He quickened, made alive, by water baptism?


It doesn't.

”But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:” (Matthew 20:22, 23)

What was the cup? That which Jesus asked to pass from Him at Gethsename.

What was the baptism Jesus spoke of? Not water baptism. Jesus had already been baptized by John.

John the Baptist said “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” (Mark 1:8)

We are baptized with the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit.

”For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)

We are all baptized into one body with Christ by one Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" (Romans 6:3-8)


All the more as it helps with edification.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kay-gee
May 2nd 2009, 12:24 PM
COL 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Lets be honnest and true to the Scriptures. What baptism is this verse talking about?

1. The word "having been buried..." clearly shows that the thought is carried over from the previous verse. Verse 11 talks about our spiritual circumcision which is a very significant reality and a powerful fact in our faith. But how did this come about? Verse 12 gives the answer: "having been buried with him in baptism" Thus: The great spiritual truth of verse 11 is further clarified and proven in verse 12. The two verses are talking of one and the same thing. The baptism of verse 12 is just as spiritual as the circumcision of verse 11. Water can't give the spiritual experience of these verses. Only Christ can give it and whatever He gives, can only be accepted by faith and not by any physical means.

2. And what about the word "buried"? Is water baptism a burial? Is there one single verse in the Bible where water baptism was ministered where it was also called a burial? Water baptism was never a burial. Some would refer to Romans 6, but that is not water at all. Romans 6 talks about a baptism (and burial) by which we are united to Christ. We are certainly not united to Christ by water.

But please take note: The Bible speaks clearly of another burial (and baptism) which does have the power to unite us to Christ, and this one is not water. This is Christ's baptism in His own death. He had a cup to drink which is also called baptism (Matt. 20:22,23 and Luke 12:50). Scriptures have spoken and we should listen. The only baptism in the Bible that is also called a burial is this one in In Matthew and Luke and it does not have anything to do with water.

3. The most important proof that the baptism of Col. 2:12 is not water, is the way it is accepted. How do we get this baptism of Col. 2:12? Do we go to a pastor or a Church that practise immersion? Not at all. Our verse clearly gives the instructions: "through faith in the working of God", and only that. I think that is clear enough. Everything in these verses is just spiritual. In fact, is is one of the main themes of Col. 2 to clarify the fact that rituals and ceremonies have passed away. Verse 11 said it already that it is not done by human hands and now verse 12 adds to that: "through faith in the working of God". If you believe that verse 11 and 12 is the working of God in heaven and not a ritual of a Church on earth, then praise the Lord!. Not many Christians understand this spiritual reality.

4. Did you notice the link between circumcised and buried? We have spoken about the burial. Please take note that the word is in the past tense and passive mode. Past passive nearly always indicate something not to be done by man, but having been done once and for all for us by our Lord and Saviour. The Holy Spirit is the one that baptised you as He is also the only one that can identify and unite you with the burial of Christ. Circumcised and buried are in the same verbal form and are complements of one another. The two took place in the same time historically and they have the same meaning to us today. The one is as spiritual as the other. Please don't fall back and look for a physical circumcision and baptism while the pure spiritual working of God is being offered to you.

Then explain the Ethiopian Eunuch!

Must be multiple baptisms after all!

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 12:29 PM
Hi Ff,

You should have quoted a few more verses, because Paul clearly tells us what this means, He is referring to water baptism.


Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We have been planted with Him. To be planted means to be put into the ground, this is the image of water baptism.

Look at this word likeness, the Greek word is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G3667 ὁμοίωμα homoiōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something 1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation 1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

Paul says that we are planted in the image or representation of His death. An image is something that is seen, as is a representation, A representation is an image of something seen, in place of something not seen.

Representation,

a presentation to the mind in the form of an idea or image
a creation that is a visual or tangible rendering of someone or something
the act of representing; standing in for someone or some group and speaking with authority in their behalf

So, this baptism that Paul speaks of is a visible baptism, only water baptism is visible, Spiritual baptism is not visible, therefore this passage is speaking of water baptism.

Thank you Butch,

I guess in this instance less is more as you have been most edifying.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 12:33 PM
There's only one that places us into the body of Christ. Which baptism does 1 Cor 12:13 say that is?

This shows how important it is for us to know the truth.

2 Cor 11:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 12:38 PM
Here is a scripture we constantly repeat in my church. :)

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

A person does not have the robe of righteousness fit for the wedding feast without baptism. We must "put on Christ". Meaning follow Him through baptism to death and resurrection.

I agree, if we have not put on Christ by baptism then we cannot be in the body of Christ, according to that which is written.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 2nd 2009, 02:37 PM
By putting on Christ it also means that we are putting on the Father and the Holy Spirit.

1 Jn 5:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We cannot have one without the other, we cannot have either unless we put on Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 2nd 2009, 04:01 PM
I guess a lot of the responses here reflect what is individually understood and experienced. Many of the answers are all parts of a full baptismal praxis. In my church it's done the realy old fashion way. Prayers are said, the devil is renounced, a vow is made to Christ and the person baptized is tontured (the vow to the priesthood of Christ, in which some hair is cut), triple immersion in water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is done (represetive of death and resurrection in Christ). Then the baptized person is robed in a while robe (prepared for the eucharistic wedding feast), and sealed with the Holy Spirit by laying of hands which is done by anointing the person with chrism oil (not only a receving of the Spirit, but a sealing as well).

IOW absolutely every physical aspect scripture speaks of is addressed. And by faith we believe God does His part as well. ie. circumcision without hands resulting in a new heart, and placing in the body of Christ we have put on Christ :saint:

Tomlane
May 2nd 2009, 04:23 PM
I have yet to read in scripture where dressing up sinful flesh and glorifying it with water and oil glorifies Christ since we are told to put off the old man and that we worship in spirit.

Colossians 3:9 *Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 *And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Romans 3:20 *Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 8:13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Philippians 3:2 *Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 *For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

When we don't rightly divide the word of God, evil men with the philosophy of men will take us down with worshiping in the flesh.

Colossians 2:8 *Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 *For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 *And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

God says we are made complete in Him, there fore we have no need of water or oil or fancy clothes to proclaim our walk in Christ as we show our walk with the way we live our life according to the word and we do that through faith.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 14:23 *And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

This next verse sums it all up.

2 Corinthians 5:16 *¶Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 *Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The new creature that God creates in a saved sinner can't be anointed with oil, or dunked under water, you can't get it wet at all.

Tomlane

Teke
May 2nd 2009, 09:32 PM
I have yet to read in scripture where dressing up sinful flesh and glorifying it with water and oil glorifies Christ since we are told to put off the old man and that we worship in spirit.

Colossians 3:9 *Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 *And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Romans 3:20 *Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 8:13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Philippians 3:2 *Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 *For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

When we don't rightly divide the word of God, evil men with the philosophy of men will take us down with worshiping in the flesh.

Colossians 2:8 *Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 *For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 *And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

God says we are made complete in Him, there fore we have no need of water or oil or fancy clothes to proclaim our walk in Christ as we show our walk with the way we live our life according to the word and we do that through faith.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 14:23 *And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

This next verse sums it all up.

2 Corinthians 5:16 *¶Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 *Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The new creature that God creates in a saved sinner can't be anointed with oil, or dunked under water, you can't get it wet at all.

Tomlane

Tom,

"I have yet to read in scripture where dressing up sinful flesh and glorifying it with water and oil glorifies Christ since we are told to put off the old man and that we worship in spirit. "

It was done for Jesus and glorified Him, Who's body we are.

"When we don't rightly divide the word of God, evil men with the philosophy of men will take us down with worshiping in the flesh."

Jesus worshipped with both His flesh (literally His life) and His spirit as an example for us. I don't feel as though I'm in bad company with Him.

"The new creature that God creates in a saved sinner can't be anointed with oil, or dunked under water, you can't get it wet at all."

And yet these things were done unto Jesus to fulfill all righteousness.

Tom, we have a role model to follow, we don't have to guess what to do. He showed us in His life that which we need to do.:)

Tomlane
May 2nd 2009, 10:13 PM
Teke, thank you for your opinion, as that is all it is since you never gave one scripture to back up your position. I'll give you some more scripture to prove we can't glorify the new man with fleshly ordinances nor will you ever find scripture to back up such statements. However there are many verses that stated the new man worships Christ in spirit and truth by faith as I mentioned earlier. Also the new man or creation is spiritual and not physical. The only thing physical is our sinful flesh. The physical law and ordinances imposed on Israel which by the way were never given to Gentiles Act 15, was temporary at best. What Christ did for all mankind satisfied God for sin and that was spiritual and permanent. If the physical was permanent then all flesh would never die and would go to heaven. So why glory in it?

Hebrews 11:1 *¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 *For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 *Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 *¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 *By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 *But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Since faith is the substance of things not seen, how can anyone possibly content we dress up the new man in a rob and dunk him under water with things that are seen? Since when can we purchase any kind of snake oil that has no substance to it.

The baptism that is done without visible substance is the baptism done by Christ that is spiritual.

Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 *¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 *Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The only way we can be buried with Christ in baptism would have to be done by Christ, {spiritual} and to be quickened {made alive} would again have to be spiritual baptism. Since this satisfies God, why not those who want to make very thing physical that has been nailed to the cross? Why not do it by faith instead of sight?

Tomlane

David2
May 3rd 2009, 09:24 AM
Then explain the Ethiopian Eunuch!

Must be multiple baptisms after all!

all the best...

kay-gee,

We have to distinguish between things that differ in the Bible (Phil. 1:10). Yes there are many instances of water baptism in the Bible, but please take note: that was done during the time when people did not know the real substance of our cleansing, forgivenes and regeneration. Even on the day of Pentecost Peter said nothing about the saving power of the Cross. In stead, he ordered them the be baptised for the remission of sins. Do we baptise people today for the remission of sins? No, we don't, because we do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

But after the fulness of our new position in Christ was revealed, we did not cling to a shadow any more. Therfore, after the real substance of our faith was openly preached, there remained only one baptism (Ef. 4:5) and this is the spiritual regeneration by faith when we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

All the best
David

Firstfruits
May 3rd 2009, 10:30 AM
I guess a lot of the responses here reflect what is individually understood and experienced. Many of the answers are all parts of a full baptismal praxis. In my church it's done the realy old fashion way. Prayers are said, the devil is renounced, a vow is made to Christ and the person baptized is tontured (the vow to the priesthood of Christ, in which some hair is cut), triple immersion in water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is done (represetive of death and resurrection in Christ). Then the baptized person is robed in a while robe (prepared for the eucharistic wedding feast), and sealed with the Holy Spirit by laying of hands which is done by anointing the person with chrism oil (not only a receving of the Spirit, but a sealing as well).

IOW absolutely every physical aspect scripture speaks of is addressed. And by faith we believe God does His part as well. ie. circumcision without hands resulting in a new heart, and placing in the body of Christ we have put on Christ :saint:

Thanks Teke,

I have never heard of that method before, but what I will say is that as long as we are baptized as Christ has commanded, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and teach as he has taught then we are in his will.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 3rd 2009, 10:36 AM
kay-gee,

We have to distinguish between things that differ in the Bible (Phil. 1:10). Yes there are many instances of water baptism in the Bible, but please take note: that was done during the time when people did not know the real substance of our cleansing, forgivenes and regeneration. Even on the day of Pentecost Peter said nothing about the saving power of the Cross. In stead, he ordered them the be baptised for the remission of sins. Do we baptise people today for the remission of sins? No, we don't, because we do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

But after the fulness of our new position in Christ was revealed, we did not cling to a shadow any more. Therfore, after the real substance of our faith was openly preached, there remained only one baptism (Ef. 4:5) and this is the spiritual regeneration by faith when we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

All the best
David

With regards to what Christ has commanded concerning baptism and what is stated in the following scriptures, has Christs commandment and His commission changed?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

David2
May 3rd 2009, 11:49 AM
With regards to what Christ has commanded concerning baptism and what is stated in the following scriptures, has Christs commandment and His commission changed?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


In Christ's final command to the apostles and disciples at the end of the four Gospels we find nothing again about salvation through Christ's merits on the Cross. Only the Law, miracles and baptism. Please take note that Christ's commands to the 12 and the 70 in Matthew 10 did change. There they were not to go to any Gentiles but to Jews only. In Matthew 28 they had to go to all the world. So, the marching orders have changed and after that it would change again. Water baptism could not be the requirement after the message of the cross had been revealed completely. Not once in all 14 of his letters does Paul preach reconciiation or remission of sins through water, only by the cross.

No, Rom. 6 does not refer to water at all. Water could never bring us into a attoned relationship with God, while this baptism in Rom. 6 is clearly something that has the power to do just that. We should therefore conclude that this baptism is not water, but rater the one baptism of Ef. 4:5, the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 and the baptism of Christ at the cross in our death. Water baptism did signify or symbolise the remission of sins in that time when the message of the cross was not preached, but this baptism in Rom. 6 is not a symbol of anything. The way it is presented in these verses makes it very clear that this is a baptism which has the the real power in itself to bring people to unity with Christ.

In God's grace
David

kay-gee
May 3rd 2009, 12:12 PM
kay-gee,

We have to distinguish between things that differ in the Bible (Phil. 1:10). Yes there are many instances of water baptism in the Bible, but please take note: that was done during the time when people did not know the real substance of our cleansing, forgivenes and regeneration. Even on the day of Pentecost Peter said nothing about the saving power of the Cross. In stead, he ordered them the be baptised for the remission of sins. Do we baptise people today for the remission of sins? No, we don't, because we do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

But after the fulness of our new position in Christ was revealed, we did not cling to a shadow any more. Therfore, after the real substance of our faith was openly preached, there remained only one baptism (Ef. 4:5) and this is the spiritual regeneration by faith when we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

All the best
David

I think you need to read Acts 2:39. On who's authority, and at what time did the commandment change?

all the best...

Veretax
May 3rd 2009, 12:13 PM
What then do you make of what Peter wrote in his first Epistle:

1 Peter 3:21,22

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

David2
May 3rd 2009, 01:02 PM
What then do you make of what Peter wrote in his first Epistle:

1 Peter 3:21,22

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.


What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

The parenthesis you have used in your quotation of 1 Peter 3:21,22 says it all. I agree that there is clearly a part of the verse that should be in brackets. Please take note how the verse reads without the parenthesis: There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Therefore, the baptism Peter refers to here, is not water, but it points to Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection. This is confirmed by the use of the word "antitype". The type was the OT shadow, in this case, the flood in the days of Noah, while the antitype is the real truth, the reality that was signified by the type. So, again, this baptism was not a type or a shadow, it was the real substance symbolised by the type. It was the antitype. Now, water can not be a antitype. Water bapism is not the fulfilment of any type. The Only One that is preseented in the Bible as the fulfiller of all the types of the old covenant is Jesus Christ. He is the antitype. This is exactly what the verse is saying. The antitype of the salvasion through water in the days of Noah, is the real antitype baptism of today and that is Jesus Christ through His death and resurection!

losthorizon
May 3rd 2009, 01:37 PM
What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.


The water in baptism is an anti-type of Noah’s deliverance by water from the heathen world - water separated the righteous of the unrighteous. Baptism in water simply points to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism in water is accompanied by the purifying work of the Holy Spirit as the soul is purified from unrighteousness by the blood of Christ. Baptism is the "pledge to God made from a good conscience." When we come up out of the water of baptism, we arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection - to a new life - born of water and the Spirit. (Rom 6:3-5, John 3:5).
“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

David2
May 3rd 2009, 01:48 PM
The water in baptism is an anti-type of Noah’s deliverance by water from the heathen world - water separated the righteous of the unrighteous. Baptism in water simply points to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Baptism in water is accompanied by the purifying work of the Holy Spirit as the soul is purified from unrighteousness by the blood of Christ. Baptism is the "pledge to God made from a good conscience." When we come up out of the water of baptism, we arise with Him in the likeness of His resurrection - to a new life - born of water and the Spirit. (Rom 6:3-5, John 3:5).
“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

There can only be one antitype and as you correctly pointed out, it must be the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The antitype is not water baptism, but Jesus baptism in His death en resurrection. Water baptism did not fulfil anything. It only for a short while pointed to the antitype, Jesus Christ, until the full power of the cross was made known and no types were necessary anymore.

losthorizon
May 3rd 2009, 02:29 PM
There can only be one antitype and as you correctly pointed out, it must be the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The antitype is not water baptism, but Jesus baptism in His death en resurrection. Water baptism did not fulfil anything. It only for a short while pointed to the antitype, Jesus Christ, until the full power of the cross was made known and no types was necessary anymore.
You misunderstand – “water” is clearly the “anti-type” (antitupon) under consideration in this passage. Water (H2O) is what separated those inside the Ark from those who perished outside just as those who obey their Lord in baptism are identified with Him (come into union with Him) at the point of immersion in water. Baptism points us to His death, burial and resurrection and we identify with His saving act by being buried in water and rising up a new creature in Christ Jesus. To misunderstand the necessity of the ordinance of baptism in salvation and in our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of the Risen Christ is to miss much. Baptism is a burial in water (we are baptized into His death per Rom 6:3-5) and baptism is a "pledge to God made from a good conscience” - "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16-17
1 Pet 3:21. The antecedent to the relative, whichever word is used, is clearly not the ark, but water; and the idea is, that as Noah was saved by water, so there is a sense in which water is made instrumental in our salvation. ~ Albert Barnes

David2
May 3rd 2009, 02:56 PM
You misunderstand – “water” is clearly the “anti-type” (antitupon) under consideration in this passage. Water (H2O) is what separated those inside the Ark from those who perished outside just as those who obey their Lord in baptism are identified with Him (come into union with Him) at the point of immersion in water. Baptism points us to His death, burial and resurrection and we identify with His saving act by being buried in water and rising up a new creature in Christ Jesus. To misunderstand the necessity of the ordinance of baptism in salvation and in our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of the Risen Christ is to miss much. Baptism is a burial in water (we are baptized into His death per Rom 6:3-5) and baptism is a "pledge to God made from a good conscience” - "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16-17
1 Pet 3:21. The antecedent to the relative, whichever word is used, is clearly not the ark, but water; and the idea is, that as Noah was saved by water, so there is a sense in which water is made instrumental in our salvation. ~ Albert Barnes

1. Water (physical) can not in any way cleanse our hearts (spiritual). It can therefore not accomplish anything. It could at best only point to something else. This fact alone makes it abundantly clear that water baptism is just a type and can never be the antitype.

2. The verse itself says that the baptism it talks about, is Christ and not water (as explained above when the parenthesis is taken out).

3. In the parenthesis itself we are told clearly that Peter did not think here about physical things like water. He doesn't talk about washing of the body in water. This is just another reason to understand the verse spiritually and not physically.

4. Let's look at the context of the verse in 1 Peter 3. Does the context talk about a ritual or about a spiritual reality? 1PET 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

There we have it. 1 Petr 3:18 describes the antitype in full. This is the only antitype baptism that has any effect on us today: Christ's baptism in His death.

5. "There is an antitype which now saves us - baptism ... through the resurection of Jesus Christ." This antitype baptism is something or rather someone with the power to save. Water can't save - it never could and it never will. Therefore, this is Christ's baptism in His death and then the resurrection (Matt. 20:22-23). This is the only baptism in the Bible that can save.

BroRog
May 3rd 2009, 05:36 PM
What then do you make of what Peter wrote in his first Epistle:

1 Peter 3:21,22

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

The Greek word "typos" has it's basis in the Greek word "typto": to strike.


If I take some soft clay and hit it with my fist, the impression my fist leaves in the clay is the "typos" and my fist is the "antitypos". If I mold something out of clay, the thing molded is the "typos" and my fingers are the "antitypos". If I take a stylus and make an impression in the clay, the hole I leave in the clay is the "typos" and the stylus is the "antitypos".


"typos" denotes the impress of the blow; "antitypos" has the actual striking in view and takes on such senses as "striking back," "sending back," then "resistant," "inimical," "antitypical," "corresponding," and "reproducing." (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament)

Remember, in this context Peter is talking to his readers who are suffering persecution. So, in a sense, they are being hit with actual blows but also spiritual doubts that feel like blows to the body. The point being that God is allowing these "blows" because they serve his good purpose. In whatever way, these persecusions are working as the "antitypos" to form us into the "typos" that God desires.

He compares the Christian experience to Noah's experience. In the same way that God required Noah to build an ark while he preached to the lost, the Christian is supposed to take the persecutions and insults of his society while quietly giving an answer for the hope that is within us.

In a sense, it wasn't the boat that saved Noah. The boat was merely the vehicle that transported him above the water when the flood came. Noah was already saved in the truest sense, and the construction of the boat was his way of working out his salvation as he lived life under persecution from evil men.

I believe Peter has compared Noah's experience with ours to say that our true baptism isn't getting into the water to be purified, but to live a life of belief in a world that persecutes us even unto death sometimes.

Our "antitypos" isn't the water baptism; our "antitypos" is the suffering and persecution we experience as we live out our lives in the midst of evil men who want to kill us for what we beleive. Our sufferings, in whatever form they take, is our "antitypos", the things that form us into what we will be.

Veretax
May 3rd 2009, 06:59 PM
The Greek word "typos" has it's basis in the Greek word "typto": to strike.


If I take some soft clay and hit it with my fist, the impression my fist leaves in the clay is the "typos" and my fist is the "antitypos". If I mold something out of clay, the thing molded is the "typos" and my fingers are the "antitypos". If I take a stylus and make an impression in the clay, the hole I leave in the clay is the "typos" and the stylus is the "antitypos".

"typos" denotes the impress of the blow; "antitypos" has the actual striking in view and takes on such senses as "striking back," "sending back," then "resistant," "inimical," "antitypical," "corresponding," and "reproducing." (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament)Remember, in this context Peter is talking to his readers who are suffering persecution. So, in a sense, they are being hit with actual blows but also spiritual doubts that feel like blows to the body. The point being that God is allowing these "blows" because they serve his good purpose. In whatever way, these persecusions are working as the "antitypos" to form us into the "typos" that God desires.

He compares the Christian experience to Noah's experience. In the same way that God required Noah to build an ark while he preached to the lost, the Christian is supposed to take the persecutions and insults of his society while quietly giving an answer for the hope that is within us.

In a sense, it wasn't the boat that saved Noah. The boat was merely the vehicle that transported him above the water when the flood came. Noah was already saved in the truest sense, and the construction of the boat was his way of working out his salvation as he lived life under persecution from evil men.

I believe Peter has compared Noah's experience with ours to say that our true baptism isn't getting into the water to be purified, but to live a life of belief in a world that persecutes us even unto death sometimes.

Our "antitypos" isn't the water baptism; our "antitypos" is the suffering and persecution we experience as we live out our lives in the midst of evil men who want to kill us for what we beleive. Our sufferings, in whatever form they take, is our "antitypos", the things that form us into what we will be.


That's the type of post I was hoping to get, cause I didn't really understand what anti-type meant. I'm a programmer, so when I think of types I think of things like strings, integers, floating point numbers, graphics, and objects as types. But the idea of an Anti-type is not something that is common to me. Your post was a great help thanks, and btw I agree, it wasn't the boat that saved noah, it was his faith to get into it and believe God that saved him ;) Faith that was demonstrated by that first step inside.

Eben
May 3rd 2009, 07:15 PM
Paul says there is only one baptism.
ph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as there is one hope to which God has called you.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Eph 4:6 there is one God and Father of all people, who is Lord of all, works through all, and is in all.

Now please tell me out of the different baptisms that I know of which one will it be.
1. Cleansing ceremonies of the Old Testament in Heb 9:10
2.Baptism of John Matt 3 :11
3.Baptism with Holy Spirit and fire Matt 3:11
4.Baptism of Jesus Matt 3:16
5. Baptism of the Crucification Luke 12:50
6. Jesus Himself never baptised while on earth!!
7. Pentacost Acts 2
8. Peter baptised with water for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38
9. Baptism in the death of Christ Rom6:3-4
10. Baptism of Moses 1Cor10:2
11. Baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ 1Cor.12:13
12 The one batism of Eph 4:5
13 The great commission Matt 28:19
As far as I can see they are all different in some aspect. So which one is the right one. There can only be one.
Love in Christ

losthorizon
May 3rd 2009, 09:47 PM
Remember, in this context Peter is talking to his readers who are suffering persecution. So, in a sense, they are being hit with actual blows but also spiritual doubts that feel like blows to the body. The point being that God is allowing these "blows" because they serve his good purpose. In whatever way, these persecusions are working as the "antitypos" to form us into the "typos" that God desires.

Antitype (antitupon) ~ "a thing formed after some pattern; that which corresponds to a type"Actually Rog you are missing the entire context by adding “persecutions” – that word is simply not in the text of 1 Peter 3:21. An antitype refers to two things that in some way relate to each other - one is a “type” and the other is the “antitype”. In context - Peter clearly teaches that the waters of Noah’s Deluge are the "type", and the baptismal waters of the ordinance of Christian baptism is the "antitype". The meaning in this passage is that the water of Christian baptism corresponds to the water by which Noah was saved. Please note again – persecution is not under consideration *in context”. The water of baptism in turn typifies the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit as we are cleansed by the blood of Christ.
"To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save…it is true that our works are of no use for salvation. Baptism, however, is not our work but God's." ~ Martin Luther

Teke
May 3rd 2009, 09:57 PM
Teke, thank you for your opinion, as that is all it is since you never gave one scripture to back up your position.

Your right, I only gave references that are commonly known.


I'll give you some more scripture to prove we can't glorify the new man with fleshly ordinances nor will you ever find scripture to back up such statements.

I haven't said "we" glorify the new man. Christ is glorified in us.


However there are many verses that stated the new man worships Christ in spirit and truth by faith as I mentioned earlier.

To worship "in spirit and truth by faith" to me, means right worship vs wrong worship.


Also the new man or creation is spiritual and not physical.

Does this mean no resurrection then?


The only thing physical is our sinful flesh.

I don't believe flesh operates separate from a persons soul. Meaning I don't believe in "sinful flesh". God created our flesh, and what He created is "good."


The physical law and ordinances imposed on Israel which by the way were never given to Gentiles Act 15, was temporary at best.

But the spirit of them was not temporary as is exampled by the Apostles.


What Christ did for all mankind satisfied God for sin and that was spiritual and permanent.

I don't believe God needs to be satisfied, that suggests a need. What does God need.



If the physical was permanent then all flesh would never die and would go to heaven. So why glory in it?

The physical is created by God. I don't believe He really sees things like we do. What may look like chaos to us, could look quite glorious to God.


Hebrews 11:1 *¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 *For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 *Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 *¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 *By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 *But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Good scriptures on faith. :) Especially verse 1."Faith is the realization of things hoped for, the confidence of things not seen".


Since faith is the substance of things not seen, how can anyone possibly content we dress up the new man in a rob and dunk him under water with things that are seen? Since when can we purchase any kind of snake oil that has no substance to it.

I suppose the misunderstanding between us is due to a couple tranlsated words. "substance" and "evidence"


The baptism that is done without visible substance is the baptism done by Christ that is spiritual.

To the created, of which we are, substance is essential. It's how we live in our state of being.


Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 *¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 *Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Here again, I believe your using scripture wrongly. We come through God's work which includes His creation. Holy baptism joins us with Christ. Jesus triumphs over the conditions of fallen existence-sin, death, the flesh, the law, and evil spirits-by His death and resurrection


The only way we can be buried with Christ in baptism would have to be done by Christ, {spiritual} and to be quickened {made alive} would again have to be spiritual baptism. Since this satisfies God, why not those who want to make very thing physical that has been nailed to the cross? Why not do it by faith instead of sight?

Tomlane

Sounds a bit gnostic Tom. It's not about some abstract spiritual ideas, but a living reality.

Teke
May 3rd 2009, 10:02 PM
What then do you make of what Peter wrote in his first Epistle:

1 Peter 3:21,22

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.
Peter means Noah was saved from a godless society.

Let me put it this way, Noah was not so much saved from the water, as through the water, from evil.
For through the water of baptism the resurrected Christ, having taken His place in heaven itself, gives us a clean conscience.

Teke
May 3rd 2009, 10:16 PM
1. Water (physical) can not in any way cleanse our hearts (spiritual). It can therefore not accomplish anything. It could at best only point to something else. This fact alone makes it abundantly clear that water baptism is just a type and can never be the antitype.

2. The verse itself says that the baptism it talks about, is Christ and not water (as explained above when the parenthesis is taken out).

3. In the parenthesis itself we are told clearly that Peter did not think here about physical things like water. He doesn't talk about washing of the body in water. This is just another reason to understand the verse spiritually and not physically.

4. Let's look at the context of the verse in 1 Peter 3. Does the context talk about a ritual or about a spiritual reality? 1PET 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

There we have it. 1 Petr 3:18 describes the antitype in full. This is the only antitype baptism that has any effect on us today: Christ's baptism in His death.

5. "There is an antitype which now saves us - baptism ... through the resurection of Jesus Christ." This antitype baptism is something or rather someone with the power to save. Water can't save - it never could and it never will. Therefore, this is Christ's baptism in His death and then the resurrection (Matt. 20:22-23). This is the only baptism in the Bible that can save.




Are you saying Peter is contradicting Jesus words in John 3:5, "I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Butch5
May 4th 2009, 12:01 AM
In Christ's final command to the apostles and disciples at the end of the four Gospels we find nothing again about salvation through Christ's merits on the Cross. Only the Law, miracles and baptism. Please take note that Christ's commands to the 12 and the 70 in Matthew 10 did change. There they were not to go to any Gentiles but to Jews only. In Matthew 28 they had to go to all the world. So, the marching orders have changed and after that it would change again. Water baptism could not be the requirement after the message of the cross had been revealed completely. Not once in all 14 of his letters does Paul preach reconciiation or remission of sins through water, only by the cross.

No, Rom. 6 does not refer to water at all. Water could never bring us into a attoned relationship with God, while this baptism in Rom. 6 is clearly something that has the power to do just that. We should therefore conclude that this baptism is not water, but rater the one baptism of Ef. 4:5, the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 and the baptism of Christ at the cross in our death. Water baptism did signify or symbolise the remission of sins in that time when the message of the cross was not preached, but this baptism in Rom. 6 is not a symbol of anything. The way it is presented in these verses makes it very clear that this is a baptism which has the the real power in itself to bring people to unity with Christ.

In God's grace
David

David,

What is the basis for your claim that the baptism in Romans 6 is not water? You said it is not yet gave no support for your claim. I say it is and I will give evidence to show it.

Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Notice that Paul says if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, look at the Greek word for likeness,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something 1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation 1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

Paul says if we have been planted in the image or representation of his death. An image is something that is seen, likewise a representation is something that is seen. The only baptism that is seen is water baptism, we cannot see Spiritual baptism. Therefore this must be referring to water baptism.

Butch5
May 4th 2009, 12:03 AM
The parenthesis you have used in your quotation of 1 Peter 3:21,22 says it all. I agree that there is clearly a part of the verse that should be in brackets. Please take note how the verse reads without the parenthesis: There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Therefore, the baptism Peter refers to here, is not water, but it points to Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection. This is confirmed by the use of the word "antitype". The type was the OT shadow, in this case, the flood in the days of Noah, while the antitype is the real truth, the reality that was signified by the type. So, again, this baptism was not a type or a shadow, it was the real substance symbolised by the type. It was the antitype. Now, water can not be a antitype. Water bapism is not the fulfilment of any type. The Only One that is preseented in the Bible as the fulfiller of all the types of the old covenant is Jesus Christ. He is the antitype. This is exactly what the verse is saying. The antitype of the salvasion through water in the days of Noah, is the real antitype baptism of today and that is Jesus Christ through His death and resurection!




Sorry my friend but Peter connects the flood to baptism, that is water.

BroRog
May 4th 2009, 01:25 AM
Actually Rog you are missing the entire context by adding “persecutions” – that word is simply not in the text of 1 Peter 3:21.

It's found in the preceding verses.

For instance, in 1Peter 2, we read his word concerning those who do the right thing, but suffer anyway.

For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. 1Peter 2:19-20


Notice that he compares his reader's experience with that of Jesus when he suffered on the cross.


For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 1Peter 2:21-24

Here in chapter 3, Peter talks about suffering the evils, injustices, and insults of other people, while not returning these evils and insults back on them.

To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. 2Peter 3:8-9

In the following passage Peter paints a picture of someone who is suffering for the sake of righteousness under intimidation and threats, while giving a defense to everyone who asks with gentleness and reverence.

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed and do not fear their intimidation, and to not be troubled, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

Once again, Peter will contrast his readers' experience with that of Jesus Christ. It won't be that uncommon for a believer in Jesus to be persecuted and even put to death as his or her master was. It takes a lot of courage to put up with suffering, persecution, insults, and slander while attempting to maintain good behavior and preach the gospel, even to those who persecute you.

For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit . . . 2Peter 3:17-18


An antitype refers to two things that in some way relate to each other - one is a “type” and the other is the “antitype”. In context - Peter clearly teaches that the waters of Noah’s Deluge are the "type", and the baptismal waters of the ordinance of Christian baptism is the "antitype".

I'm not certain that this view is "clearly taught" by Peter. I understand, though, that this is a common interpretation and commonly taught in our churches today. I tend to think Peter is teaching something else based on what he says about the days of Noah. I take note in the following passage Peter's remark about the patient endurance of God during the construction of the ark.

. . . in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

This idea of endurance in the face of evil is paramount in the verses above as I think I have shown. And Peter is using this historical event as an example for his readers.

I believe also, that our Bibles have a typo (pun alert) in 1Peter 3:19. My translation reads, "in which also he went and made proclamation . . ." I believe the passage should read, "Noah also went and made proclamation . . ."

The Greek words translated "by whom", or "in which" are ἐν ᾧ. The Greek word for Noah is Νῶε. As you might be able to see, the phrase "by whom" and the name "Noah" use the same three letters.

Rather than making the point that Jesus went "in the spirit" to preach to spirits now in prison, I believe Peter meant to say that it was Noah that preached to the people while they were still alive, but who are now spirits in prison. The point being that Just as Jesus Christ was required to preach righteousness under duress during his earthly ministry, Noah also was required to preach righteousness under duress during the time when God waited patiently for Noah to build the ark.

In his second epistle, Peter warns those who say that nothing changes, and that everything remains as it always has been. In that context he reminds people that while things seem to progress in a slow, uniform manner, history records catastrophic events in which everything changed over night. As an example he cites Lot, a righteous man tormented by his evil society, and Noah, a preacher of righteousness. The point here being that in each case, the people had advanced warning of the coming catastrophe, but didn't listen to the warnings. And many people were swept away because they believed that things always remain the same.

In that context, then, we read that Noah was a preacher of righteousness, which seems to dovetail with Peter's point that Noah preached to his generation while he constructed the ark. Thus, if I am right, Noah becomes another example of someone who was required to "give an account for the hope" that was in him, while suffering for the sake of righteousness.

There is a precedent for the word "baptism" being used for suffering in the NT.

Mark records a moment just before Jesus was going to the cross, an event which greatly occupied his thinking.

They were on the road going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was walking on ahead of them; and they were amazed, and those who followed were fearful. And again He took the twelve aside and began to tell them what was going to happen to Him, saying, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and will hand Him over to the Gentiles. They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again."

James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, came up to Jesus, saying, "Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask of You." And He said to them, "What do you want Me to do for you?" They said to Him, "Grant that we may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left, in Your glory." But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?" They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared." Mark 10:32-40

I believe that Jesus refers to his suffering, mocking, scourging, and death as the cup that he must drink and the baptism he must endure. And Jesus asks his disciples if they would be willing to endure the same treatment as he will receive.

I'm suggesting that we jump to conclusions to assume that Peter refers to the Christian ritual of water baptism in 1Peter 3:21. I think he disabuses his readers of this interpretation when he says, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", which would refer to being immersed in water. In light of the fact that he has spent two chapters talking about acting righteously in the face of evil, suffering, ridicule, insults, and threats and intimidation, it seems reasonable to think that his comparison between Noah and the believer centers on his role to preach righteousness while suffering the evils of his generation during the construction of the ark.

fuzzi
May 4th 2009, 01:33 AM
I don't believe flesh operates separate from a persons soul. Meaning I don't believe in "sinful flesh". God created our flesh, and what He created is "good."
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Romans 7:18)

You might not 'believe' in 'sinful flesh', but it's Scriptural.

Before salvation, flesh and soul are stuck together. It's why our sins in the flesh contaminate our soul. It's why we are headed for Hell.

Once we are born again, Christ circumcises us, essentially cutting the soul loose from the flesh, so the sins of the flesh will no longer touch the soul. (see Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2)


The only way we can be buried with Christ in baptism would have to be done by Christ, {spiritual} and to be quickened {made alive} would again have to be spiritual baptism. Since this satisfies God, why not those who want to make very thing physical that has been nailed to the cross? Why not do it by faith instead of sight?

Sounds a bit gnostic Tom. It's not about some abstract spiritual ideas, but a living reality.
It's not gnostic at all, it's Biblical:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

losthorizon
May 4th 2009, 02:51 AM
I'm suggesting that we jump to conclusions to assume that Peter refers to the Christian ritual of water baptism in 1Peter 3:21. I think he disabuses his readers of this interpretation when he says, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh", which would refer to being immersed in water. In light of the fact that he has spent two chapters talking about acting righteously in the face of evil, suffering, ridicule, insults, and threats and intimidation, it seems reasonable to think that his comparison between Noah and the believer centers on his role to preach righteousness while suffering the evils of his generation during the construction of the ark…


I'm not certain that this view is "clearly taught" by Peter. I understand, though, that this is a common interpretation and commonly taught in our churches today. I tend to think Peter is teaching something else based on what he says about the days of Noah. I take note in the following passage Peter's remark about the patient endurance of God during the construction of the ark.


I have no problem understanding Peter’s discourse in the preceding passages regarding persecution and patient endurance through God’s grace but there can be no doubt the “antitupon” referred to in 1 Pet 3:21 is a direct reference to the ordinance of baptism, which is the "antitype" of the water of the flood, the flood being the “type”. Again, “persecution” is not identified as the antitype of anything in this passage – it is not mentioned at all.

And I also agree the interpretation of baptism as the antitype of the water of the flood has been the most common interpretation by biblical scholars over the past 2000 years. It appears that some folks have a problem with the ordinance – not quite sure why but it was instituted and commanded by Christ and it remains as much a part of the gospel of grace today as it was when it was first commanded.

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 11:46 AM
In Christ's final command to the apostles and disciples at the end of the four Gospels we find nothing again about salvation through Christ's merits on the Cross. Only the Law, miracles and baptism. Please take note that Christ's commands to the 12 and the 70 in Matthew 10 did change. There they were not to go to any Gentiles but to Jews only. In Matthew 28 they had to go to all the world. So, the marching orders have changed and after that it would change again. Water baptism could not be the requirement after the message of the cross had been revealed completely. Not once in all 14 of his letters does Paul preach reconciiation or remission of sins through water, only by the cross.

No, Rom. 6 does not refer to water at all. Water could never bring us into a attoned relationship with God, while this baptism in Rom. 6 is clearly something that has the power to do just that. We should therefore conclude that this baptism is not water, but rater the one baptism of Ef. 4:5, the baptism of 1 Cor. 12:13 and the baptism of Christ at the cross in our death. Water baptism did signify or symbolise the remission of sins in that time when the message of the cross was not preached, but this baptism in Rom. 6 is not a symbol of anything. The way it is presented in these verses makes it very clear that this is a baptism which has the the real power in itself to bring people to unity with Christ.

In God's grace
David

Is the following refering to water baptism?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Lk 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

Jn 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Acts 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 8:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Is baptism not the same for all?

Do you believe that just because it may not say 'water' in one scripture concerning baptism that the methode of baptism would somehow be changed?

I repeat the scripture gone before;

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Firstfruits

kay-gee
May 4th 2009, 12:04 PM
Great post there firstfruits! I almost want to pull my hair out sometimes. What is it about water baptism that professed Bible believeing people don't get?!!

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 01:05 PM
Great post there firstfruits! I almost want to pull my hair out sometimes. What is it about water baptism that professed Bible believeing people don't get?!!

all the best...

It seems a though we can forbid water baptism.

It seems as though Christ commandment can be ignored

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

chad
May 4th 2009, 01:27 PM
Hi Teke,

I think your right. There's not much more that I could add, which everyone else hasn't covered. So I guess i'll just post some thoughts regarding to Baptism. I'm still working it all out, but it's kind of late and i'm sleepy, so here goes...

What does it mean to be baptized in Christ?

Belief in Christ Jesus and Baptism are necessary for us to be saved. Mark 16:16.

(Mark 16:16 KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We are baptised by one spirit, that is the spirit of God (in Triune nature – The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)


There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), with two parts (Water – Baptism of John the Baptist & Baptism into Jesus name where we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 8:36-39).


The Baptism of water (Part 1) deals with the repentance and sin, death and ressurection.


- Repentance of sins (John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Lk 3:3)


- Being buried with Christ Jesus (Death on the Cross) and receiving forgiveness of sins through Jesus death. (Rom 3:6)


- Ressurection. Being baptized into Jesus death we are also raised with him. (Romans 6:4-11, Col 2:12).


Part 2 – Baptism into the Name Of the Lord Jesus Christ.


John the Baptist declared that there was one (Jesus) who would come and Baptize in the Holy Spirit, whose sandals he is not worth to carry. (Mark 1:7-8).


After Jesus had been resurrected, he said to his disciples, All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go make disciples of all nations, and baptizing them in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. (Mt 28:18-19)


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. On one occasion after Jesus had been resurrected and appeared to them over 40 days, Jesus instructed them to wait at Jerusalem until the gift of the Holy Spirit comes. That gift was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-5). The Purpose of the Holy Spirit coming on them was that they may receive power (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38) and this happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)


After Pentecost, those who believed in Jesus, were baptized into his name.


Those who had only known the baptism of John, were baptized into the name of Jesus and when
Paul placed hands on him, they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:1-6)


When we are baptized into the name of Jesus, the Holy spirit comes on us and fills us with the spirit of God in fullness (Father, Son, Holy spirit). (Acts 8:16-17)


Note: The baptism of John seems to be before Jesus death. The Baptism into Jesus name and the gift of the holy spirit seems to be after Jesus death and ressurection.


Many of the answers are all parts of a full baptismal praxis.

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 01:35 PM
Hi Teke,

I think your right. There's not much more that I could add, which everyone else hasn't covered. So I guess i'll just post some thoughts regarding to Baptism. I'm still working it all out, but it's kind of late and i'm sleepy, so here goes...

What does it mean to be baptized in Christ?
Belief in Christ Jesus and Baptism are necessary for us to be saved. Mark 16:16.

(Mark 16:16 KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We are baptised by one spirit, that is the spirit of God (in Triune nature – The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)

There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), with two parts (Water – Baptism of John the Baptist & Baptism into Jesus name where we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 8:36-39).

The Baptism of water (Part 1) deals with the repentance and sin, death and ressurection.

- Repentance of sins (John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Lk 3:3)

- Being buried with Christ Jesus (Death on the Cross) and receiving forgiveness of sins through Jesus death. (Rom 3:6)

- Ressurection. Being baptized into Jesus death we are also raised with him. (Romans 6:4-11, Col 2:12).

Part 2 – Baptism into the Name Of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist declared that there was one (Jesus) who would come and Baptize in the Holy Spirit, whose sandals he is not worth to carry. (Mark 1:7-8).

After Jesus had been resurrected, he said to his disciples, All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go make disciples of all nations, and baptizing them in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. (Mt 28:18-19)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. On one occasion after Jesus had been resurrected and appeared to them over 40 days, Jesus instructed them to wait at Jerusalem until the gift of the Holy Spirit comes. That gift was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-5). The Purpose of the Holy Spirit coming on them was that they may receive power (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38) and this happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)

After Pentecost, those who believed in Jesus, were baptized into his name.

Those who had only known the baptism of John, were baptized into the name of Jesus and when
Paul placed hands on him, they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:1-6)

When we are baptized into the name of Jesus, the Holy spirit comes on us and fills us with the spirit of God in fullness (Father, Son, Holy spirit). (Acts 8:16-17)

Note: The baptism of John seems to be before Jesus death. The Baptism into Jesus name and the gift of the holy spirit seems to be after Jesus death and ressurection.

For all that believe that Gods Commandments must be obeyed, it is strange that Jesus being God has commanded yet we question what God has commanded.

Jn 12:49 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=49) For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

To deny Christ means to deny God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 4th 2009, 01:37 PM
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Romans 7:18)

You might not 'believe' in 'sinful flesh', but it's Scriptural.

Before salvation, flesh and soul are stuck together. It's why our sins in the flesh contaminate our soul. It's why we are headed for Hell.

Once we are born again, Christ circumcises us, essentially cutting the soul loose from the flesh, so the sins of the flesh will no longer touch the soul. (see Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2)


The Romans verse you posted is in reference to the problem, which is not the law, but sin. Sin is what we manifest in our carnality (v14).

Unredeemed human nature always wants to do what is forbidden.

I see no line of reasoning in scripture for what you've put forth on "cutting the soul loose from the flesh".
Ephesians 2 is on transfiguration by grace. Colossians 2 is on Paul's concern for their salvation and is against false theology and against false spirituality.

Man centered superstition is deadly.

Jesus was not 'cut loose" from the flesh. After His Resurrection He bodily ascended into heaven. Acts 1:1-3



It's not gnostic at all, it's Biblical:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

Although we may not fully understand the operation of the Spirit. From the first we read of the Spirit's work (in Genesis) there is water.

Teke
May 4th 2009, 01:57 PM
Hi Teke,

I think your right. There's not much more that I could add, which everyone else hasn't covered. So I guess i'll just post some thoughts regarding to Baptism. I'm still working it all out, but it's kind of late and i'm sleepy, so here goes...

What does it mean to be baptized in Christ?

Belief in Christ Jesus and Baptism are necessary for us to be saved. Mark 16:16.

(Mark 16:16 KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We are baptised by one spirit, that is the spirit of God (in Triune nature – The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13)


There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), with two parts (Water – Baptism of John the Baptist & Baptism into Jesus name where we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 8:36-39).


The Baptism of water (Part 1) deals with the repentance and sin, death and ressurection.


- Repentance of sins (John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Lk 3:3)


- Being buried with Christ Jesus (Death on the Cross) and receiving forgiveness of sins through Jesus death. (Rom 3:6)


- Ressurection. Being baptized into Jesus death we are also raised with him. (Romans 6:4-11, Col 2:12).


Part 2 – Baptism into the Name Of the Lord Jesus Christ.


John the Baptist declared that there was one (Jesus) who would come and Baptize in the Holy Spirit, whose sandals he is not worth to carry. (Mark 1:7-8).


After Jesus had been resurrected, he said to his disciples, All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Therefore go make disciples of all nations, and baptizing them in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit. (Mt 28:18-19)


The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. On one occasion after Jesus had been resurrected and appeared to them over 40 days, Jesus instructed them to wait at Jerusalem until the gift of the Holy Spirit comes. That gift was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-5). The Purpose of the Holy Spirit coming on them was that they may receive power (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:38) and this happened on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)


After Pentecost, those who believed in Jesus, were baptized into his name.


Those who had only known the baptism of John, were baptized into the name of Jesus and when
Paul placed hands on him, they received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 19:1-6)


When we are baptized into the name of Jesus, the Holy spirit comes on us and fills us with the spirit of God in fullness (Father, Son, Holy spirit). (Acts 8:16-17)


Note: The baptism of John seems to be before Jesus death. The Baptism into Jesus name and the gift of the holy spirit seems to be after Jesus death and ressurection.

Hi Chad, :)

Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize people in the name of the Trinity, which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt. 28:19

Acts teaches this began with the Jews, then the Samaritans, and also included the Gentiles.

Pentecost was the empowering of the Church Body after Christ's ascension. What had begun individually had become, being unified in the Body of Christ, His glorified Church.

In a nutshell, the redemption of mankind through Christ. A transfiguration by grace. Jesus is the medicine which heals the body, meaning the whole, of mankind.
Such as when we take medicine, it gradually disseminates into the body and effects healing.

The church in the world thus becomes the Body of Christ in the world. Offering His healing redemption through Him.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 12:40 PM
Hi Chad, :)

Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize people in the name of the Trinity, which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Matt. 28:19

Acts teaches this began with the Jews, then the Samaritans, and also included the Gentiles.

Pentecost was the empowering of the Church Body after Christ's ascension. What had begun individually had become, being unified in the Body of Christ, His glorified Church.

In a nutshell, the redemption of mankind through Christ. A transfiguration by grace. Jesus is the medicine which heals the body, meaning the whole, of mankind.
Such as when we take medicine, it gradually disseminates into the body and effects healing.

The church in the world thus becomes the Body of Christ in the world. Offering His healing redemption through Him.

Amen! to that Teke,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 5th 2009, 01:53 PM
Amen! to that Teke,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Thanks. :hug:

And yet the individual outside of Christ doesn't understand this. Even the Pharissees accepted such evidence.

Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

Jesus has certainly confirmed all things for them. For a couple thousand years now and still a living truth.

Halleluiah!

Veretax
May 5th 2009, 01:57 PM
What was it Christ said? That we should be come like children, and have a child like faith?

Why is it that we even those who have been believers for a decade or more feel the need to make the simple gospel so complex?

Is it because of sin in our lives? Is it because our minds want to believe that we can explain it better than the bible does?

I don't know, but I do know one thing my faith rests on Christ, and not on an interpretation of baptism. While this has been an interesting discussion, and can be instructional and eddifying, it really has no impact on my current status as a born again believer in Christ, and for that I say Amen!

Teke
May 5th 2009, 02:15 PM
What was it Christ said? That we should be come like children, and have a child like faith?

Why is it that we even those who have been believers for a decade or more feel the need to make the simple gospel so complex?

Is it because of sin in our lives? Is it because our minds want to believe that we can explain it better than the bible does?

I don't know, but I do know one thing my faith rests on Christ, and not on an interpretation of baptism. While this has been an interesting discussion, and can be instructional and eddifying, it really has no impact on my current status as a born again believer in Christ, and for that I say Amen!

I don't know why anyone would want to complicate the mattter. If one is like a child, they would as a child, follow Jesus into the water for baptism. IOW children learn by example. Jesus is our role model.

Why would we not want to be baptized seeing as how even He was.?

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 02:26 PM
What was it Christ said? That we should be come like children, and have a child like faith?

Why is it that we even those who have been believers for a decade or more feel the need to make the simple gospel so complex?

Is it because of sin in our lives? Is it because our minds want to believe that we can explain it better than the bible does?

I don't know, but I do know one thing my faith rests on Christ, and not on an interpretation of baptism. While this has been an interesting discussion, and can be instructional and eddifying, it really has no impact on my current status as a born again believer in Christ, and for that I say Amen!

With regards to the OP do you believe the following scripture as it is written to be true?

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

I know you say your faith rests on Christ, so have you died with Christ?

Rom 6:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1 Pet 1:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Pet 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 5th 2009, 02:42 PM
1 Pet 3:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God bless you!

Firstfruits





I don't see how much clearer it can be. "baptism does now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

kay-gee
May 5th 2009, 05:10 PM
The Gospel is so ridiculously simple a child can understand it. He who believes and is BAPTIZED shall be saved.

It's these anti-water folks that mess it all up!

If the Lord sent you to the store for milk, would you reason out that Coca-Cola is what He really meant? I mean puh-LEASE!!!

It's so frustrating.

all the best...

John146
May 5th 2009, 05:19 PM
I don't see how much clearer it can be. "baptism does now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".Which baptism?

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I don't see how much clearer it can be. We are saved and enter into the body of Christ via the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

John146
May 5th 2009, 05:24 PM
The Gospel is so ridiculously simple a child can understand it. He who believes and is BAPTIZED shall be saved.

It's these anti-water folks that mess it all up!

If the Lord sent you to the store for milk, would you reason out that Coca-Cola is what He really meant? I mean puh-LEASE!!!

It's so frustrating.

all the best...Are the immature insults really necessary? Yes, the gospel is very simple. But Paul indicated that water baptism was not part of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 06:06 PM
Are the immature insults really necessary? Yes, the gospel is very simple. But Paul indicated that water baptism was not part of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul did not say that he did not baptize but that he was sent to preach the gospel, he states clearly that he did baptize.

We know that Jesus did not baptize but his Disciples did, should they not have done so?

Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Was Christs commandment reversed?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 5th 2009, 06:26 PM
Ro 6:1-7 (NKJV)

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:1-7 (NKJV)



1 Pe 1:3-5 (NKJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (NKJV)


1 Pe 3:18-22 (NKJV)

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NKJV)


I had to look the verses up in a version I am familiar with. reading that last one in particular in full context, it does seem to read very plainly that it is through baptism throught he resurrection of Christ. The debate here is whether this is referring to the Baptism of his death (which is what Peter is talking about in verse 18). I believe what Peter is saying is its not an outward cleansing as if washing with water, or even the outward judgment and salvation of Noah through the water, but a baptism that takes place inside, as it is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

What I think Peter is trying to say is there is a difference between having the appearance of being cleansed outwardly of filth, and being cleansed in the heart. Does that make sense? That baptism is the answer of a Good conscience toward God. It is not the water which saves, but the answering of that good conscience toward God, that step of faith that I say saves in this case.


So I return to what I've always believed, water baptism, by immersion is in essence a public profession of the faith and answer that a good conscience has already made when confronted with the truth about Christ. That would seem to be why we still baptize with water then, because that's what it meant then.

John146
May 5th 2009, 06:43 PM
Paul did not say that he did not baptize but that he was sent to preach the gospel, he states clearly that he did baptize.My point was that he differentiated between water baptism and the gospel. He indicated that water baptism is not part of the gospel of salvation. In other words, he wouldn't have said what he did if being baptized in water was necessary for salvation. I'm not saying that he taught that no one should be baptized but that the priority was to lead people to salvation by the preaching of the gospel. Understand now or do I need to clarify further?


We know that Jesus did not baptize but his Disciples did, should they not have done so?I never said that. You missed the point.

Teke
May 5th 2009, 07:07 PM
Which baptism?

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I don't see how much clearer it can be. We are saved and enter into the body of Christ via the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism involves water, even if the Spirit is doing the baptism. Show me scriptures stating otherwise, or how else you would know you've experienced a baptism, with 2-3 witnesses to back it up.

You also haven't refuted Jesus words that both "water and spirit" are necessary.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 07:11 PM
Ro 6:1-7 (NKJV)

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:1-7 (NKJV)



1 Pe 1:3-5 (NKJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (NKJV)


1 Pe 3:18-22 (NKJV)

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NKJV)


I had to look the verses up in a version I am familiar with. reading that last one in particular in full context, it does seem to read very plainly that it is through baptism throught he resurrection of Christ. The debate here is whether this is referring to the Baptism of his death (which is what Peter is talking about in verse 18). I believe what Peter is saying is its not an outward cleansing as if washing with water, or even the outward judgment and salvation of Noah through the water, but a baptism that takes place inside, as it is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

What I think Peter is trying to say is there is a difference between having the appearance of being cleansed outwardly of filth, and being cleansed in the heart. Does that make sense? That baptism is the answer of a Good conscience toward God. It is not the water which saves, but the answering of that good conscience toward God, that step of faith that I say saves in this case.


So I return to what I've always believed, water baptism, by immersion is in essence a public profession of the faith and answer that a good conscience has already made when confronted with the truth about Christ. That would seem to be why we still baptize with water then, because that's what it meant then.

Thanks Veretax,

Unless the word of the gospel has changed then it must therefore be the same today.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
May 5th 2009, 07:15 PM
I don't see how much clearer it can be. "baptism does now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

Notice how Peter rules out water baptism by saying,

not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 07:19 PM
My point was that he differentiated between water baptism and the gospel. He indicated that water baptism is not part of the gospel of salvation. In other words, he wouldn't have said what he did if being baptized in water was necessary for salvation. I'm not saying that he taught that no one should be baptized but that the priority was to lead people to salvation by the preaching of the gospel. Understand now or do I need to clarify further?

I never said that. You missed the point.

There truly is a difference between the gospel and baptism, we first have to accept the gospel before baptism. There is no point being baptized if we do not believe as the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unholy temple.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 5th 2009, 07:20 PM
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism involves water, even if the Spirit is doing the baptism. Show me scriptures stating otherwise, or how else you would know you've experienced a baptism, with 2-3 witnesses to back it up.Was John the Baptist mistaken when he spoke of two baptisms? Water baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit are not the same baptism. The one baptism that places us into the body of Christ is the baptism with the Holy Spirit which Christ performs within us and results in us being new creations with newness of life.


You also haven't refuted Jesus words that both "water and spirit" are necessary.Are you referring to John 3:5? I don't believe that verse is referring to water baptism. Notice in John 3:6 Jesus says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.". No mention of water there. I believe being born of water either refers to being born of the womb or of the flesh, as mentioned in verses 4 and 6 or it could be referring to the Spirit in two ways: water and wind. The Holy Spirit is the living water that we receive when we put our faith in Christ (John 7:37-39). Nowhere else can we see water baptism referred to in terms of being born of water.

Another point worth making about John 3:5 is that if that verse still applies today, which I certainly believe it does, then so does what happened with the thief on the cross and what happened with the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. All of these accounts took place before Christ's death and resurrection and obviously before Pentecost. In the case of the thief on the cross he was not baptized in water and yet was clearly saved. Neither was the woman who anointed Jesus' feet yet He still said that her faith saved her.

Butch5
May 5th 2009, 08:09 PM
Ro 6:1-7 (NKJV)

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Romans 6:1-7 (NKJV)



1 Pe 1:3-5 (NKJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (NKJV)


1 Pe 3:18-22 (NKJV)

Christ’s Suffering and Ours

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (NKJV)


I had to look the verses up in a version I am familiar with. reading that last one in particular in full context, it does seem to read very plainly that it is through baptism throught he resurrection of Christ. The debate here is whether this is referring to the Baptism of his death (which is what Peter is talking about in verse 18). I believe what Peter is saying is its not an outward cleansing as if washing with water, or even the outward judgment and salvation of Noah through the water, but a baptism that takes place inside, as it is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

What I think Peter is trying to say is there is a difference between having the appearance of being cleansed outwardly of filth, and being cleansed in the heart. Does that make sense? That baptism is the answer of a Good conscience toward God. It is not the water which saves, but the answering of that good conscience toward God, that step of faith that I say saves in this case.


So I return to what I've always believed, water baptism, by immersion is in essence a public profession of the faith and answer that a good conscience has already made when confronted with the truth about Christ. That would seem to be why we still baptize with water then, because that's what it meant then.


V,

The baptism is Romans 6:4, is it water?

Veretax
May 5th 2009, 11:58 PM
V,

The baptism is Romans 6:4, is it water?


My answer may surprise you, I think it is both. Water and Spirit.

Heirphoto
May 6th 2009, 12:48 AM
Each denomonation has a different view on baptism.

I believe the baptists baptise by complete immersion, backwards and they rise out of the water the same way Jesus rose in the tomb.

In our Church of the Brethren baptisms, we are immersed 3 times (in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) face down the way Jesus died on the cross. We would be baptised into the death of Jesus, that he died for our sins.

Tony

fuzzi
May 6th 2009, 12:56 AM
The Gospel is so ridiculously simple a child can understand it. He who believes and is BAPTIZED shall be saved.

It's these anti-water folks that mess it all up!

If the Lord sent you to the store for milk, would you reason out that Coca-Cola is what He really meant? I mean puh-LEASE!!!

It's so frustrating.

all the best...
Spoken to brethren in a loving and Christ-like manner. :rolleyes:

Butch5
May 6th 2009, 02:10 AM
My answer may surprise you, I think it is both. Water and Spirit.

Agreed, I believe that the Spiritual happen during the water.

David2
May 6th 2009, 02:53 AM
V,

The baptism is Romans 6:4, is it water?
No, it can't be. There are many baptisms in the Bible, not only one or two. And they don't always involve water. The water rite was a symbol or a shadow in the time when people did not see or understand the Gospel of salvation as we do (the cross). When the truth or the reality came, the shadow is removed. We should now continue with the one spiritual baptism, (the death of Christ was a baptism according to the Gospels). This is the only baptism that saves. Water does not save. Christ saves. Therefore, the baptism of Rom. 6 is not water, but the death of Christ.

We are now in the dispensation of the full knowledge, the time when we know the reality in in Jesus Christ. Let us make the transition from shadows to the reality. To link salvation to water in a time where we should know better, is an reflection on the glory of the Gospel. That is what Paul meant when he said he does not baptise with water because he don't want to make the cross of Christ of no effect.

For me, all physical and fleshy shadows have been removed and the substance is in Christ (Col. 2:16,17).

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 04:31 AM
No, it can't be. There are many baptisms in the Bible, not only one or two. And they don't always involve water. The water rite was a symbol or a shadow in the time when people did not see or understand the Gospel of salvation as we do (the cross). When the truth or the reality came, the shadow is removed. We should now continue with the one spiritual baptism, (the death of Christ was a baptism according to the Gospels). This is the only baptism that saves. Water does not save. Christ saves. Therefore, the baptism of Rom. 6 is not water, but the death of Christ.

We are now in the dispensation of the full knowledge, the time when we know the reality in in Jesus Christ. Let us make the transition from shadows to the reality. To link salvation to water in a time where we should know better, is an reflection on the glory of the Gospel. That is what Paul meant when he said he does not baptise with water because he don't want to make the cross of Christ of no effect.

For me, all physical and fleshy shadows have been removed and the substance is in Christ (Col. 2:16,17).

Is that right? Please explain away Acts 2:39

all the best...

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 04:37 AM
Are the immature insults really necessary? Yes, the gospel is very simple. But Paul indicated that water baptism was not part of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Insults? Expressing my frustration is an insult?

all the best...

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 04:39 AM
Spoken to brethren in a loving and Christ-like manner. :rolleyes:

Not MY brethren.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:52 AM
No, it can't be. There are many baptisms in the Bible, not only one or two. And they don't always involve water. The water rite was a symbol or a shadow in the time when people did not see or understand the Gospel of salvation as we do (the cross). When the truth or the reality came, the shadow is removed. We should now continue with the one spiritual baptism, (the death of Christ was a baptism according to the Gospels). This is the only baptism that saves. Water does not save. Christ saves. Therefore, the baptism of Rom. 6 is not water, but the death of Christ.

We are now in the dispensation of the full knowledge, the time when we know the reality in in Jesus Christ. Let us make the transition from shadows to the reality. To link salvation to water in a time where we should know better, is an reflection on the glory of the Gospel. That is what Paul meant when he said he does not baptise with water because he don't want to make the cross of Christ of no effect.

For me, all physical and fleshy shadows have been removed and the substance is in Christ (Col. 2:16,17).

With what were the Disciples baptizing with, since only Christ can baptize with the Holy Spirit?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This does not say baptize with the Father, and with the Son, and with the Holy Spirit, but in the name of.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

chad
May 6th 2009, 08:45 AM
Hi John,

I tend to look at it this way. John in his own words declared that his baptism is for the repentance of sins. His baptism was only part of the equation. John also gives the later part of the equation.

There is another to come, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry, he will baptize you with the holy spirit and fire (Mt 3:11; Mk 1:7-8; Lk 3:16; John 1:26-27)

To me that suggests, that water and spirit are both parts of baptism we are to recieve.

Remember even Jesus (who was without sin) was baptized with water, so all righteousness could be fulfilled (Mt 3:13-15).



Was John the Baptist mistaken when he spoke of two baptisms? Water baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit are not the same baptism. The one baptism that places us into the body of Christ is the baptism with the Holy Spirit which Christ performs within us and results in us being new creations with newness of life.

Teke
May 6th 2009, 01:02 PM
Was John the Baptist mistaken when he spoke of two baptisms?

He isn't speaking of two baptisms, but of the difference in his baptisms and those that would be of Christ. John is a great prophet and he speaks the same of Jesus as did all the OT prophets.


Water baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit are not the same baptism. The one baptism that places us into the body of Christ is the baptism with the Holy Spirit which Christ performs within us and results in us being new creations with newness of life.

How about a compromise and say both happen with water baptism. The one within us relates to faith, a faith Abraham exemplified and his circumcision represented. Which like water is also not really an outward sign, as circumcision is of the private part (not public) of man.


Are you referring to John 3:5? I don't believe that verse is referring to water baptism. Notice in John 3:6 Jesus says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.". No mention of water there. I believe being born of water either refers to being born of the womb or of the flesh, as mentioned in verses 4 and 6 or it could be referring to the Spirit in two ways: water and wind. The Holy Spirit is the living water that we receive when we put our faith in Christ (John 7:37-39). Nowhere else can we see water baptism referred to in terms of being born of water.

So you propose that Jesus went and was baptized, but he told others there was no need for water baptism. That is a contradiction. I believe Jesus said and did what He meant. No contradiction.


Another point worth making about John 3:5 is that if that verse still applies today, which I certainly believe it does, then so does what happened with the thief on the cross and what happened with the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. All of these accounts took place before Christ's death and resurrection and obviously before Pentecost. In the case of the thief on the cross he was not baptized in water and yet was clearly saved. Neither was the woman who anointed Jesus' feet yet He still said that her faith saved her.

Paul talks about this in Romans. Yes, one is saved by faith. But that faith leads them to baptism, if physically possible.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

See Abraham's example covers both sides of the issue.

Veretax
May 6th 2009, 01:26 PM
I wonder, if there is any OT prophecy that foretells of baptism, or fortells of this issue we've been discussing from a NT Perspective. If there were it might add additional clarification, perhaps, not sure, but does anyone know?

Teke
May 6th 2009, 01:44 PM
I wonder, if there is any OT prophecy that foretells of baptism, or fortells of this issue we've been discussing from a NT Perspective. If there were it might add additional clarification, perhaps, not sure, but does anyone know?

Only perspective I know is the priesthood. Israel was to be a nation of priests. Ex. 19:6
Entrance into that priesthood included baptism, a baptism done by God in them passing through the Red Sea. Wet or not, they passed through the waters.

Then we have Moses example with Aaron, making another order within that priesthood. That order being of those who would serve at the altar.

Exd 29:1 And this the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest's office:
Exd 29:4 And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.
Exd 29:7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour [it] upon his head, and anoint him.

Exd 29:8 And thou shalt bring his sons, and put coats upon them. [i]ie. white robes NT sign of righteousness

I've only posted on the things that would pertain to baptism. The other things which pertain to sacrifice I have left out, as that pertains to the Eucharist celebrated by the church with Christ, which is another subject to do with "priesthood".

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 01:48 PM
I wonder, if there is any OT prophecy that foretells of baptism, or fortells of this issue we've been discussing from a NT Perspective. If there were it might add additional clarification, perhaps, not sure, but does anyone know?

I have searched but so far I can find no instances where baptism is mentioned.

It appears to have started with John the Baptist, hence the name.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
May 6th 2009, 02:28 PM
I have searched but so far I can find no instances where baptism is mentioned.

It appears to have started with John the Baptist, hence the name.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Look for purification or washing. Baptism was part of the initiation ceremony to become a member of the covenant.

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 03:13 PM
Look for purification or washing. Baptism was part of the initiation ceremony to become a member of the covenant.

Thanks BroRog,

Just as it was a requirement for becoming a member of the covenant the words of Christ holds true if we want to enter the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 6th 2009, 04:48 PM
Hi John,

I tend to look at it this way. John in his own words declared that his baptism is for the repentance of sins. His baptism was only part of the equation. John also gives the later part of the equation.

There is another to come, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry, he will baptize you with the holy spirit and fire (Mt 3:11; Mk 1:7-8; Lk 3:16; John 1:26-27)

To me that suggests, that water and spirit are both parts of baptism we are to recieve.

Remember even Jesus (who was without sin) was baptized with water, so all righteousness could be fulfilled (Mt 3:13-15).Please tell me your understanding of 1 Corinthians 12:13 and when you believe that baptism takes place in relation to water baptism.

John146
May 6th 2009, 04:52 PM
Thanks BroRog,

Just as it was a requirement for becoming a member of the covenant the words of Christ holds true if we want to enter the kingdom of God.

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsI don't believe John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. Notice that in John 3:6 Jesus says that he who is born of the Spirit is spirit. No mention of water there. One must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

For the sake of argument, though, let's say it is speaking of water baptism. Now, Jesus spoke those words before His death and resurrection and they applied to the time both before and after His death and resurrection. Agree? Yet the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized in water. So was the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. How do you reconcile that with your understanding of John 3:5?

John146
May 6th 2009, 05:09 PM
He isn't speaking of two baptisms, but of the difference in his baptisms and those that would be of Christ. John is a great prophet and he speaks the same of Jesus as did all the OT prophets.I completely disagree. John the Baptist said that he baptized with water. That is water baptism. Then he said that, in contrast, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. That is another baptism. He clearly spoke of two separate baptisms: one physical and one spiritual.


How about a compromise and say both happen with water baptism.I don't think so. I don't see that scripture teaches that.


So you propose that Jesus went and was baptized, but he told others there was no need for water baptism. That is a contradiction. I believe Jesus said and did what He meant. No contradiction. I didn't say that. Was Jesus baptized for salvation? All I'm saying here is that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be baptized. In Acts 10:43-48 we have an example where people were baptized with the Holy Spirit just as the Jews were on the day of Pentecost and it occurred before they were baptized in water.

I don't believe that NT saints are saved in a different way than OT saints. I believe there is one gospel for all-time.

Gal 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Paul talks about this in Romans. Yes, one is saved by faith. But that faith leads them to baptism, if physically possible.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

See Abraham's example covers both sides of the issue.But the baptism isn't what saves someone. It is faith. When I read Galatians 3 and Romans 4 I believe it is taught that we are saved and justified in just the same way Abraham was: by faith. It seems like you may be trying to say that Abraham was saved by faith and circumcision? Is that right? If so, that is clearly not true.

Teke
May 6th 2009, 06:42 PM
I completely disagree. John the Baptist said that he baptized with water. That is water baptism. Then he said that, in contrast, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. That is another baptism. He clearly spoke of two separate baptisms: one physical and one spiritual.

Don't two become one in Christ. IOW isn't everything suppose to be unified in Christ.
If your going to be hyper literal about it, then were is the fire spoken of in scripture at the baptisms spoken of.


I don't think so. I don't see that scripture teaches that.

Ok, then you believe Jesus divides everything up into some new system. Am I following your line of thought?


I didn't say that. Was Jesus baptized for salvation? All I'm saying here is that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be baptized. In Acts 10:43-48 we have an example where people were baptized with the Holy Spirit just as the Jews were on the day of Pentecost and it occurred before they were baptized in water.

I don't believe that NT saints are saved in a different way than OT saints. I believe there is one gospel for all-time.

Gal 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Well, I didn't say that water will save you/give you salvation. Like you posted, Jesus was baptized and He didn't need salvation. But He is showing us by His example that mankind does need Him and His example.


But the baptism isn't what saves someone. It is faith. When I read Galatians 3 and Romans 4 I believe it is taught that we are saved and justified in just the same way Abraham was: by faith. It seems like you may be trying to say that Abraham was saved by faith and circumcision? Is that right? If so, that is clearly not true.

Again, I didn't say baptism saves someone. But I have yet to meet a Christian who would tell another not to be baptized by water. I've also never met a Christian who received the revelation of the Son and didn't want to be baptized by water ASAP. I know that is the first thing I did when the Son was revealed to me.
Since I've been on this board, I have read some crazy ideas people have. But that is outside the order that is within the church.

I gave the verse on Abraham to show that his faith had him covered either way. It was a response to your question about the theif at the cross and the woman.

There are a lot of aspects that water baptism addresses. It is my understanding, that the act of baptism with water is the culmination of both OT and NT teaching. And I believe it is a sign of obedience.

John146
May 6th 2009, 06:58 PM
Don't two become one in Christ. IOW isn't everything suppose to be unified in Christ.
If your going to be hyper literal about it, then were is the fire spoken of in scripture at the baptisms spoken of. Hyper literal? Okay. :rolleyes:

How do you read this verse:

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Isn't the baptism with water one baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit another? Is He not contrasting physical baptism with spiritual baptism there? Sure seems like it to me. As far as the fire part that John the Baptist mentioned, I tend to think that is referring to this:

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It appears to me that being baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire describes the baptism with the Holy Spirit that Jesus in Acts 1:5 was coming and which both John the Baptist and Jesus differentiated from water baptism.


Ok, then you believe Jesus divides everything up into some new system. Am I following your line of thought?I'm not even sure what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?


Well, I didn't say that water will save you/give you salvation. Like you posted, Jesus was baptized and He didn't need salvation. But He is showing us by His example that mankind does need Him and His example.I believe the example symbolizes what has already occurred within us by way of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.


Again, I didn't say baptism saves someone.You do believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation, right? If not, we should just start our discussion all over again because you definitely have been giving that impression.


I gave the verse on Abraham to show that his faith had him covered either way. It was a response to your question about the theif at the cross and the woman.I know, but I don't see your point. So, let me just ask you something for clarification. Do you believe Abraham was saved a different way than we are?

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:17 PM
I don't believe John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. Notice that in John 3:6 Jesus says that he who is born of the Spirit is spirit. No mention of water there. One must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

For the sake of argument, though, let's say it is speaking of water baptism. Now, Jesus spoke those words before His death and resurrection and they applied to the time both before and after His death and resurrection. Agree? Yet the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized in water. So was the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. How do you reconcile that with your understanding of John 3:5?

With regards to the following scriptures with what are the Disciples to baptize with?

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Acts 8:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 6th 2009, 07:28 PM
With regards to the following scriptures with what are the Disciples to baptize with?

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Why answer a question with another question? Did you read my post regarding John 3:5? Please read what I said and tell me what you think and then I will answer your question.

Teke
May 6th 2009, 07:34 PM
Is He not contrasting physical baptism with spiritual baptism there? Sure seems like it to me.

That is the point I've been trying to get across. However, there are guidelines to adhere to, those being that which pertains to Christ. In Christology the Spirit isn't separate from the physical. So my guidelines tell me that I can't do that with something such as baptism, because it is something that Christ Himself participates in. We can't deny that, we have a written witness.

Everything must match His standard, not our diverse thoughts.


Do you believe Abraham was saved a different way than we are?

No. Everyone is saved by faith. But then I have what could be termed as a universal view of salvation. I believe God's grace is extended to everyone, whether they are believers or not (IOW I don't believe God's grace can be limited). And that it is up to us to choose the salvation which He has offered through His Son. As that is the only salvation that is of God.

So while everyone could be working out their salvation, it doesn't mean that they're working out the salvation that is of God. ie. could be a salvation that is of the law or something else.
They could very well be working out something that will land them in hell which is outside of God's salvation. Either way they do so by the grace of God.

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:42 PM
[/color][/b]Why answer a question with another question? Did you read my post regarding John 3:5? Please read what I said and tell me what you think and then I will answer your question.

Jesus said born of the water and of the Spirit.

1 Jn 5:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

They are separate but they are one, you must have both.
Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

chad
May 6th 2009, 08:36 PM
My understanding of 1 Cor 12:13 is that Paul is speaking about who it is we are baptized by, not how we are baptized.

In the verses before 1 Cor 12:13 Paul is talking about spiritual gifts, where they come from, who gives them - that is the Holy Spirit.


My thoughts are on baptism is: There was a need for water baptism and later the baptism into the holy spirit at seperate times, because certain things had to be fulfilled before this could take place.

After pentecost, Even Peter Baptized with water. Acts 10:46-48.




Please tell me your understanding of 1 Corinthians 12:13 and when you believe that baptism takes place in relation to water baptism.

John146
May 6th 2009, 09:26 PM
That is the point I've been trying to get across. However, there are guidelines to adhere to, those being that which pertains to Christ. In Christology the Spirit isn't separate from the physical.What does that mean? Can you use scripture to support your statements so that I can see exactly what you're trying to say?


No. Everyone is saved by faith. But then I have what could be termed as a universal view of salvation. I believe God's grace is extended to everyone, whether they are believers or not (IOW I don't believe God's grace can be limited). And that it is up to us to choose the salvation which He has offered through His Son. As that is the only salvation that is of God.I agree with that.

John146
May 6th 2009, 09:50 PM
Jesus said born of the water and of the Spirit.

1 Jn 5:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

They are separate but they are one, you must have both.
Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsYou seem, for whatever reason, to not want to directly address the points I made. I asked you why Jesus would have said "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" in John 3:6 rather than "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". Do you have an answer for that?

What I believe you are missing is that Jesus contrasts being born physically with being born spiritually. Being born of the womb is mentioned in verse 4 and in verse 6 Jesus says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh". He is expanding on what He said in verse 5 with what He says in verse 6. Being born of water is being born of the womb and of the flesh. He is making the point that being born naturally alone is not enough to enter the kingdom of God. You must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Many religious Jews mistakenly believed that they would enter the kingdom of God based on their nationality and Jesus was making it clear that was not how it works.

Do you believe that what Jesus said in John 3:5 applied at that time, which was before He died and rose again? I do. I have pointed out to you that if John 3:5 applies today then so does what scripture teaches about the salvation of the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. Were either of them baptized in water before they were saved? No.

If you're going to try to use 1 John 5:8 to support your view than why didn't Jesus say in John 3:5, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit and of the blood, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."?

And where is your evidence that 1 John 5:8 is speaking of water baptism? The context says otherwise.

1 John 5
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Read verse 6 above. The Spirit and the water and the blood refer specifically to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus Christ. There's no reason to read any more into the verse than that.

Another point I made that went unaddressed is that baptism is never anywhere else referred to in terms like being "born of water". Any time Jesus referred to water baptism He used the word baptism. Why wouldn't He have done the same in John 3:5 by saying "Except a man be baptized (in water) and born of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God"?

kay-gee
May 7th 2009, 03:09 AM
John146. You keep asking why Jesus said this and said that. Who knows? who cares? Am I supposed to understand why you or anybody says what they say or how to choose words? The point is He said what He said. Not everyone has this great difficulty understanding His words.

Let me ask you...If Jesus is talking about "womb water" in John 3:5. Why did He say that. Wouldn't the fact that you are born and are alive in the flesh, be a given!! If you weren't EVEN BORN you would hardly be a candidate for Salvation. Another thing...does this mean all those aborted babies are etenally condemned. No womb water there!
Seriously John146, you gotta lose the womb water interpretation. It's down right silly. I don't want to be insulting, but how else can I put it.

The enuch in the chariot certainly understood what baptism to be baptized with. Ever wonder how he arrived at that conclsion? Did it just pop into his head out of no where? I'd appreciate an answer to that John146.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 06:57 AM
You seem, for whatever reason, to not want to directly address the points I made. I asked you why Jesus would have said "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" in John 3:6 rather than "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". Do you have an answer for that?

What I believe you are missing is that Jesus contrasts being born physically with being born spiritually. Being born of the womb is mentioned in verse 4 and in verse 6 Jesus says "that which is born of the flesh is flesh". He is expanding on what He said in verse 5 with what He says in verse 6. Being born of water is being born of the womb and of the flesh. He is making the point that being born naturally alone is not enough to enter the kingdom of God. You must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Many religious Jews mistakenly believed that they would enter the kingdom of God based on their nationality and Jesus was making it clear that was not how it works.

Do you believe that what Jesus said in John 3:5 applied at that time, which was before He died and rose again? I do. I have pointed out to you that if John 3:5 applies today then so does what scripture teaches about the salvation of the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. Were either of them baptized in water before they were saved? No.

If you're going to try to use 1 John 5:8 to support your view than why didn't Jesus say in John 3:5, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit and of the blood, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."?

And where is your evidence that 1 John 5:8 is speaking of water baptism? The context says otherwise.

1 John 5
6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Read verse 6 above. The Spirit and the water and the blood refer specifically to the Holy Spirit and to Jesus Christ. There's no reason to read any more into the verse than that.

Another point I made that went unaddressed is that baptism is never anywhere else referred to in terms like being "born of water". Any time Jesus referred to water baptism He used the word baptism. Why wouldn't He have done the same in John 3:5 by saying "Except a man be baptized (in water) and born of the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God"?

We are born of God by his will by His spirit.

Jn 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Jn 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 Jn 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

I hope that answers your question, we are born of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 7th 2009, 12:47 PM
What does that mean? Can you use scripture to support your statements so that I can see exactly what you're trying to say?

Do you doubt that all things are suppose to be of Christ? There are a multitude of scriptures that speak of Christ.

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom glory for ever. Amen.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.


If we are not seeking Christ in things, then we are seeking things of our own.
Phl 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

What else would be your guide Johh, if not Christ?

Or are you asking what the Incarnation means. Jesus is fully human, and fully God. His humanity (flesh) is not separate from His divinity (Spirit). That is Christology, and in part with Trinity theology. Theology being the study of God. This is what scripture tells us. Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2056851&postcount=2) is what I believe with scripture.




I agree with that.

Good, then you should understand what baptism means.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 [B]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Christ is not divided, our baptism is that which Romans (see above) speaks of.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


Are you ready to be baptized with Him? To bury the old man and destroy the body of sin thereby being a new creation in Christ.

divaD
May 7th 2009, 04:27 PM
John146. You keep asking why Jesus said this and said that. Who knows? who cares? Am I supposed to understand why you or anybody says what they say or how to choose words? The point is He said what He said. Not everyone has this great difficulty understanding His words.

Let me ask you...If Jesus is talking about "womb water" in John 3:5. Why did He say that. Wouldn't the fact that you are born and are alive in the flesh, be a given!! If you weren't EVEN BORN you would hardly be a candidate for Salvation. Another thing...does this mean all those aborted babies are etenally condemned. No womb water there!
Seriously John146, you gotta lose the womb water interpretation. It's down right silly. I don't want to be insulting, but how else can I put it.

The enuch in the chariot certainly understood what baptism to be baptized with. Ever wonder how he arrived at that conclsion? Did it just pop into his head out of no where? I'd appreciate an answer to that John146.

all the best...




John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


This seems so simple to me. If the point is, that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, then apparently to be born again a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. Meaning one can't be born again if they were never born via water in the first place. To simply put it, being born of water(the womb) plus being born of the Spirit, this equals being born again. Jesus was making it clear, that simply being born of the water, that this by itself, won't get anyone into the kingdom of God...one must also be born again of the Spirit. To claim that Jesus was talking about water baptism here, is reading and inserting things into the text that are not in the context.

Here's a question that I must ask. Does being born of water, and being baptized of water, does this mean the same thing? Are 'born' and 'baptized' the same word in the Greek? Since both of these English words are used in this very chapter, then one can look them up in the Greek and clearly see they are not the same Greek word. If Jesus meant baptized in water in verse 5, then He would have used the Greek word for baptized instead.


I'm not entirely certain, but I believe I see this somewhat as John146 does, if I'm understanding him correctly.

BroRog
May 7th 2009, 04:41 PM
From what I have gathered water baptism is based on the purification rituals practiced by Jews at the time. The ritual was normally done as one of the initiation rites when a Gentile decided to become a Jew.

John baptized Jews in the river Jordan because he was to preach a message to his own people that they needed to repent and be baptized as if they were still Gentiles.

Those whom John baptized became John's disciples and committed themselves to learn from John.

Jesus accepted baptism from John, I believe, out of solidarity with John, his ministry, and his message. When Jesus went into the water, John reminded him that the roles should have been reversed. ""I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"

What did John mean?

Peter says that baptism is an appeal for a good conscience. It isn't water that saves you, he says, it's the appeal for a good conscience.

It would seem, then, that the ritual was merely the occasion when the disciple was to repent and make his appeal to God for a good conscience. This meant that the entire nation of Israel needed to repent and make that appeal, but John understood that Jesus didn't need to make that appeal of God; but John needed to make that appeal to Jesus.

Before Jesus left this earth he gave instructions to his disciples that they should also make disciples, but not for themselves. They are to make disciples for Jesus. In the process of making disciples for Jesus they are to perform the ceremony in Jesus name, that is -- for him. And when the new disciples come out of the water, they will study and learn from Jesus.

Now, having said all that, I suggest that if you find a baptizer that will put you in the water under those conditions, then by all means get baptized. If by performing the baptism ritual you are making an appeal to God for a new life, a clean conscience, and if you are going to repent of your sins, and become Jesus' disciple and follow him, then get in the water.

But if you are getting baptized for any other reason, then forget it.

But if you already made an appeal to God for a new life, a good conscience, took Jesus as Lord, became his disciple and follow him now, then getting baptized is simply not necessary. You already got what the ritual was about.

The Spirit of God actually puts you into Christ.

John146
May 7th 2009, 06:31 PM
Do you doubt that all things are suppose to be of Christ? There are a multitude of scriptures that speak of Christ.

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom glory for ever. Amen.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.


If we are not seeking Christ in things, then we are seeking things of our own.
Phl 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

What else would be your guide Johh, if not Christ?

Or are you asking what the Incarnation means. Jesus is fully human, and fully God. His humanity (flesh) is not separate from His divinity (Spirit). That is Christology, and in part with Trinity theology. Theology being the study of God. This is what scripture tells us. Here (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2056851&postcount=2) is what I believe with scripture. Those things are all obvious or at least should be. But none of that means that there is no difference between water baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It's clear that both John the Baptist and Jesus differentiated between the two.


Good, then you should understand what baptism means. I would say that you should understand what the baptism with the Holy Spirit means but it doesn't appear that you do, IMO.


Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4 [B]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Christ is not divided, our baptism is that which Romans (see above) speaks of.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


Are you ready to be baptized with Him? To bury the old man and destroy the body of sin thereby being a new creation in Christ.Are you purposely trying to insult me by implying that you think I have not already been baptized with Him and made a new creation in Christ? I was baptized with the Holy Spirit well before I was baptized in water. I was a new creation well before I was baptized in water.

That passage from Romans 6 is speaking of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism. Just as the raising to newness of life is spiritual in nature so is being buried with Him by baptism into death. I believe you are making the mistake of thinking every mention of baptism in scripture refers to water baptism but scripture clearly speaks of another baptism, which is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

John146
May 7th 2009, 06:46 PM
John146. You keep asking why Jesus said this and said that. Who knows? who cares? Am I supposed to understand why you or anybody says what they say or how to choose words? The point is He said what He said. Not everyone has this great difficulty understanding His words.I'm not having any difficulty understanding His words.


Let me ask you...If Jesus is talking about "womb water" in John 3:5. Why did He say that. Wouldn't the fact that you are born and are alive in the flesh, be a given!!I already explained this. I don't believe that He was saying being born of water was something someone needed to do in order to enter the kingdom of God. Many Jews at that time thought that just by merely being born a natural Jew was enough to qualify to enter the kingdom of God. I believe Jesus was saying that being born of the womb/water/flesh is not enough. You must also be born of the Spirit. Notice that in verse 6 He says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and not "that which is born of water and of the Spirit is spirit".

Then in verse 8 He said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.". Notice He said "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" and not "so is every one that is born of water and of the Spirit".


If you weren't EVEN BORN you would hardly be a candidate for Salvation. Another thing...does this mean all those aborted babies are etenally condemned. No womb water there!I can ask you a similar question. Are aborted babies baptized in water? Obviously not. Does that mean they are eternally condemned?


Seriously John146, you gotta lose the womb water interpretation. It's down right silly. I don't want to be insulting, but how else can I put it.Much less silly than thinking water baptism would be referred to as being born of water in a grand total of one verse while being specifically referred to as baptism in every other verse it's referred to, IMO.


The enuch in the chariot certainly understood what baptism to be baptized with. Ever wonder how he arrived at that conclsion? Did it just pop into his head out of no where? I'd appreciate an answer to that John146.Where does it say he did it in order to ensure his salvation? Do you believe that people receive the Spirit, are baptized with the Spirit and born of the Spirit immediately upon being baptized in water?

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 06:58 PM
With the understanding that the disciples cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, can anyone tell me what it is that the disciples are to baptize with?

Since not the Spirit, that would only leave water.

How can we teach as Christ has taught and commanded if we cannot do what he has commanded us to do?

Firstfruits

Teke
May 7th 2009, 07:27 PM
Those things are all obvious or at least should be. But none of that means that there is no difference between water baptism and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It's clear that both John the Baptist and Jesus differentiated between the two.

I would say that you should understand what the baptism with the Holy Spirit means but it doesn't appear that you do, IMO.

Are you purposely trying to insult me by implying that you think I have not already been baptized with Him and made a new creation in Christ? I was baptized with the Holy Spirit well before I was baptized in water. I was a new creation well before I was baptized in water.

That passage from Romans 6 is speaking of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and not water baptism. Just as the raising to newness of life is spiritual in nature so is being buried with Him by baptism into death. I believe you are making the mistake of thinking every mention of baptism in scripture refers to water baptism but scripture clearly speaks of another baptism, which is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

I am not trying to insult you. I thought you weren't baptized. Forgive me. :hug:
Yes I do understand about baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Peace be with you,
Eve

kay-gee
May 7th 2009, 09:21 PM
[
quote=John146;2066672]I'm not having any difficulty understanding His words.

It appears that you are, either that or you are content with all the contradictions that arise in other passages that deal with the issue.




I can ask you a similar question. Are aborted babies baptized in water? Obviously not. Does that mean they are eternally condemned?

A fetus can't belive which is a reuirement (Mark16:16) But you are making it a requirement if this is womb water!






Much less silly than thinking water baptism would be referred to as being born of water in a grand total of one verse while being specifically referred to as baptism in every other verse it's referred to, IM


How many times does the Bible have to say something before it is true?
Where does it say he did it in order to ensure his salvation? Do you believe that people receive the Spirit, are baptized with the Spirit and born of the Spirit immediately upon being baptized in water?
No...I believe Acts 2:38 is the standard...it is the continual promise (Acts 2:39)
[/QUOTE
all the best...

chad
May 7th 2009, 09:59 PM
My thoughts on this are that When Jesus was alive on earth, Jesus did not baptize but it was his disciples who baptized. (John 4:1-2)

They could not have baptized with the Holy Spirit becuase the baptism of the Holy Spirit had not yet come. This happened at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-5).

So the disciples must have been baptizing people with water while Jesus was Alive and with them. After Jesus died and was ressurrected he said to wait for the Gods gift, The Holy Spirit (Acts 1:3-8). At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came and baptized them (Acts 2:1-5).

It was after Pentecost, that the scriptures say the disciples began baptising people into the name of Jesus and they recieved the Holy Spirit, through the laying on hands.

Baptism into Jesus name included water, if they had not already been baptized in water through Johns Baptism. (Acts 8:30-39; Acts 10:46-48)


Those who had only known John the Baptists baptism, were baptizeed into the name of Jesus, and recieved the holy spirit by the laying on of hands. (Acts 19:1-7)


Those who had been baptized into Jesus name, but had not recieved the Holy Spirit, hands were laid on them so that they may recieve the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8:14-17)





With the understanding that the disciples cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, can anyone tell me what it is that the disciples are to baptize with?

Since not the Spirit, that would only leave water.

How can we teach as Christ has taught and commanded if we cannot do what he has commanded us to do?

Firstfruits

John146
May 7th 2009, 10:15 PM
[

It appears that you are, either that or you are content with all the contradictions that arise in other passages that deal with the issue. There are no contradictions. I can say the same kind of thing to you based on my understanding. I believe your view contradicts 1 Cor 12:13, 1 Cor 1:17, Acts 10:43-48 and other passages.


A fetus can't believe which is a reuirement (Mark16:16) But you are making it a requirement if this is womb water! What is your point? That my view doesn't allow for an unborn baby to be saved? We both claim that faith in Christ is a necessary requirement for salvation, right? With that being the case, neither of our views would allow for an unborn baby to be saved if verses like that applied to them since an unborn baby is not really capable of putting their faith in Christ.

fuzzi
May 7th 2009, 11:07 PM
John146. You keep asking why Jesus said this and said that. Who knows? who cares?
Don't you care or want to know why Jesus said what He said?

Or are your own opinions more important to you than God's word?


Am I supposed to understand why you or anybody says what they say or how to choose words? The point is He said what He said. Not everyone has this great difficulty understanding His words.
Apparently some people do have difficulty understanding God's words.

Let's look at a few passages about baptism:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" (Matthew 3:11)

"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." (Mark 1:8)

John is pointing out that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Ghost. He did not mention water.

"But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." (Matthew 20:22,23)

Jesus is not talking about water baptism here. That doesn't seem to be difficult to understand.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Some people believe that this is a proof text of water baptism being necessary for salvation. However, when you read it carefully, you might note that it does not say 'he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned'. It only states that disbelief is the key to damnation.

"But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Luke 12:50)

Again, these are Jesus' words, and He is not referring to water baptism, since He had already been baptized! So, if there is only one baptism, that is 'water baptism', what is all this talk by our Lord about the baptism He will undergo? And what did John the Baptist mean by Jesus baptizing people with the Holy Ghost? That's not water baptism, either.

You aren't considering the majority of Scripture when you insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation. You are basing your beliefs on just a few verses that aren't necessarily clear.

Now, if you like, you can reject out of hand what I have posted, including Scripture, but ultimately each of us will stand before God with what we did with our lives. And if you rejected God's word in exchange for men's doctrines, then you will have to try to explain it to Him at that time...as each of us will.

Just think upon it.

fuzzi
May 7th 2009, 11:26 PM
Let me ask you...If Jesus is talking about "womb water" in John 3:5. Why did He say that. Wouldn't the fact that you are born and are alive in the flesh, be a given!!
Why is it that every time you see the word 'baptize' you seem to think that it's 'a given' that it has to do with water? In my previous post, I pointed out a few verses that use the word 'baptize' but don't mean 'water baptism'.


Seriously John146, you gotta lose the womb water interpretation. It's down right silly. I don't want to be insulting, but how else can I put it.
You are speaking to a brother in Christ, you might want to be a bit more kind with your words. Would you consider doing that?

John146 has given you some information that should make you at least pause, think, and go read it for yourself. Have you considered doing that?

Have you read your Bible through? Not everyone does, but many take the easy route of just listening to others and not checking out what God said in His word. When you read the entire Bible, it often illuminates itself.

There's a passage in Job that speaks of 'water birth':

"Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?" (Job 38:8)

The water came forth, as if it had come out of the womb. Hmm. :hmm:


The enuch in the chariot certainly understood what baptism to be baptized with. Ever wonder how he arrived at that conclsion? Did it just pop into his head out of no where? I'd appreciate an answer to that John146.
I'll add to John146's answer:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:36,37)

The eunuch asked what he had to do in order to be baptized, and Philip said that believing with all the heart would allow him to be baptized.

Philip is not saying "You must get baptized or you aren't saved", he is saying that the eunuch can be baptized once he professes Christ.

Do you see the difference?


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This seems so simple to me. If the point is, that except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, then apparently to be born again a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. Meaning one can't be born again if they were never born via water in the first place. To simply put it, being born of water(the womb) plus being born of the Spirit, this equals being born again. Jesus was making it clear, that simply being born of the water, that this by itself, won't get anyone into the kingdom of God...one must also be born again of the Spirit. To claim that Jesus was talking about water baptism here, is reading and inserting things into the text that are not in the context.

Here's a question that I must ask. Does being born of water, and being baptized of water, does this mean the same thing? Are 'born' and 'baptized' the same word in the Greek? Since both of these English words are used in this very chapter, then one can look them up in the Greek and clearly see they are not the same Greek word. If Jesus meant baptized in water in verse 5, then He would have used the Greek word for baptized instead.

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe I see this somewhat as John146 does, if I'm understanding him correctly.
You put that very well, diva. It's something I'd not thought of before, but you are correct. 'Born' and 'baptized' are not the same word.

Good job dividing the word of truth! :thumbsup:

Tomlane
May 7th 2009, 11:29 PM
What then do you make of what Peter wrote in his first Epistle:

1 Peter 3:21,22

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

What does peter mean when he says antitype? I'm not sure i've got a proper understanding of this term, but clearly he is saying it is not the removal of the filth of the flesh as a cleansing but the answer of a good conscience toward God.

Veretax, according to God's word there is a cleansing and immersion.

Cleansing: 1 Corinthians 6:11 *And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:22 *Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. The only pure water that can wash our bodies to maintain a true heart and full assurance of our faith and keep our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience is Jesus Christ. For he is the pure water.

1 John 5:8 *And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Revelation 7:17 *For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Immersion: Colossians 2:12 *Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 *¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Tomlane

fuzzi
May 7th 2009, 11:45 PM
Hebrews 10:22 *Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. The only pure water that can wash our bodies to maintain a true heart and full assurance of our faith and keep our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience is Jesus Christ. For he is the pure water.
And He gives living waters to anyone who thirsts and asks for them:

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:10-14)

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 02:22 AM
There are no contradictions. I can say the same kind of thing to you based on my understanding. I believe your view contradicts 1 Cor 12:13, 1 Cor 1:17, Acts 10:43-48 and other passages.

What is your point? That my view doesn't allow for an unborn baby to be saved? We both claim that faith in Christ is a necessary requirement for salvation, right? With that being the case, neither of our views would allow for an unborn baby to be saved if verses like that applied to them since an unborn baby is not really capable of putting their faith in Christ.

Except that anti-water people have to dream up a new meaning for water every time they come across it in NT. Here it is spirit. Here it is the word. Here it is womb water and so on. If one interprets water as water. (the H20 kind) then every thing locks into place. Not even a hint of a contradiction.

My point is this...You are saying that womb water is a requirement for salvation as well as spirit. So either those living souls not having been born of the womb water are condemnd or else your doctrine is flawed! Take your pick!

all the best...

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 02:36 AM
Don't you care or want to know why Jesus said what He said?

Or are your own opinions more important to you than God's word?

Of course it matters what he said, at least to me. I am not sure about the anti-water crowd. I am not into word games. Jesus said what He said. He is not confused.


Apparently some people do have difficulty understanding God's words.

aint that the truth!Let's look at a few passages about baptism:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:[QUOTE] he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" (Matthew 3:11) I notice no body goes off on a tangent about fire baptism. Why not. If you're gonna be in error, go for the whole enchilada!
"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." (Mark 1:8)

John is pointing out that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Ghost. He did not mention water.

"But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." (Matthew 20:22,23)

Jesus is not talking about water baptism here. That doesn't seem to be difficult to understand.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Some people believe that this is a proof text of water baptism being necessary for salvation. However, when you read it carefully, you might note that it does not say 'he that believeth not and is not baptized shall be damned'. It only states that disbelief is the key to damnation.

"But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" (Luke 12:50)

Again, these are Jesus' words, and He is not referring to water baptism, since He had already been baptized! So, if there is only one baptism, that is 'water baptism', what is all this talk by our Lord about the baptism He will undergo? And what did John the Baptist mean by Jesus baptizing people with the Holy Ghost? That's not water baptism, either.



You aren't considering the majority of Scripture when you insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation. You are basing your beliefs on just a few verses that aren't necessarily clear.

On the contrary...I have looked at every verse in NT dealing with baptism. One conclusion. WATER baptism for salvation

all the best...

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 02:57 AM
Hi Fuzzi...You are speaking to a brother in Christ, you might want to be a bit more kind with your words. Would you consider doing that?

John146 has given you some information that should make you at least pause, think, and go read it for yourself. Have you considered doing that?

Have you read your Bible through? Not everyone does, but many take the easy route of just listening to others and not checking out what God said in His word. When you read the entire Bible, it often illuminates itself.





John146 is not a brother in Christ to me. I know a brother by his doctrine How am I being unkind? I am only trying to correct false doctrine. I am being as nice as I can be considering my patience was exhausted long ago with the anti-water people.

He has given me the same old mis-information the anti-water people have been giving for years. I have tried it against scripture and it dosen't square.

I have read the NT forwards, backwards every which way. If I just listened to others I would probably be anti-water as well! When you put it all together and are completely honest, water baptism is the only conclusion. Sorry Fuzzi. I have been studying and preaching it 27 years. I've heard all the objections. None hold up. For the first several centuries, the church understood clearly what baptism meant.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 08:38 AM
What does it mean for us who say we are in Christ but are not baptized into Christ?

If we are not dead or buried with Him through baptism then can we be raised with Him?

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Know ye not these things?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 8th 2009, 11:11 AM
Let me ask you...If Jesus is talking about "womb water" in John 3:5. Why did He say that. Wouldn't the fact that you are born and are alive in the flesh, be a given!! If you weren't EVEN BORN you would hardly be a candidate for Salvation. Another thing...does this mean all those aborted babies are etenally condemned. No womb water there!
Seriously John146, you gotta lose the womb water interpretation. It's down right silly. I don't want to be insulting, but how else can I put it.

The enuch in the chariot certainly understood what baptism to be baptized with. Ever wonder how he arrived at that conclsion? Did it just pop into his head out of no where? I'd appreciate an answer to that John146.

all the best...


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


It does seem kind of odd for Jesus to say that a person must be born of the womb and the spirit (if that is what it means to be born by the water in this passage.) I'll admit that for years this is how I interpretted that particular passage however, I think there is another better interpretation. We had a great thread discussion about this here a few months ago.

Later in John, Jesus visits the woman at the well and talks about the living water. Elsewhere in the Gospels, the scripture is compared to water. So is it possible that what Christ is saying that they must be born of the Scriptures and Spirit? Think about it Nichodemus was a Pharasiee, and they were supposed to be a teacher of the law. (Notice how Jesus in essence sees Nichodemus marvel at what he says, and then says, are you a teacher of Israel and do not know this?) I do not believe this water is referring to baptism though, if it was, why would Christ not simply say baptism. Or since John's baptism was known to the jews, why not simply say born of repentance if that's what he meant.

Either way the two best interpretations I have heard are that of the first that it was the womb water, or that it dealt with the scriptures. (For it is possible to know the Scriptures somewhat, as was the case with me, but for a time, not have the spirit because of lack of true belief. That is what it was for me anyways. It wasn't until I understood with my heart and not just in an academic sense that I was able to believe in Christ.)




1 John 5:8 *And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.



In that particular passage, all three point to the cross. I've read that when someone was crucified and they would plunge the spear into the chest as was done to Christ, that out would come both water and blood. So I do not believe this verse is referring to baptism, but is referring of the ministry of Christ on earth, his death and suffering on the Cross, and his Spirit that now presently ministers.

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 01:08 PM
It does seem kind of odd for Jesus to say that a person must be born of the womb and the spirit (if that is what it means to be born by the water in this passage.) I'll admit that for years this is how I interpretted that particular passage however, I think there is another better interpretation. We had a great thread discussion about this here a few months ago.

Later in John, Jesus visits the woman at the well and talks about the living water. Elsewhere in the Gospels, the scripture is compared to water. So is it possible that what Christ is saying that they must be born of the Scriptures and Spirit? Think about it Nichodemus was a Pharasiee, and they were supposed to be a teacher of the law. (Notice how Jesus in essence sees Nichodemus marvel at what he says, and then says, are you a teacher of Israel and do not know this?) I do not believe this water is referring to baptism though, if it was, why would Christ not simply say baptism. Or since John's baptism was known to the jews, why not simply say born of repentance if that's what he meant.


Either way the two best interpretations I have heard are that of the first that it was the womb water, or that it dealt with the scriptures.

Or Heaven forbid!...perhaps water here is referrng to WATER!!!!!!

Now you have created the next contradiction...Ephesians 5:26...water and word used in same sentence together concerning being washed...
According to you...should that read...WASHING OF WORD WITH THE WORD?

Do you purposely seek out ways to confuse a simple thing?

Haven't come across a single account in NT yet of a conversion where someone is baptized in SCRIPTURE





In that particular passage, all three point to the cross. I've read that when someone was crucified d come both water and blood. So Iand wouldthey plunge the spear into the chest as was done to Christ, that out woul do not believe this verse is referring to baptism, but is referring of the ministry of Christ on earth, his death and suffering on the Cross, and his Spirit that now presently ministers.

How exactly does that water bear witness in the life of a modern Christian?

all the best...

divaD
May 8th 2009, 02:14 PM
Haven't come across a single account in NT yet of a conversion where someone is baptized in SCRIPTURE



Perhaps so...yet at the same time, many of us have not come up with a single account where born of water actually means baptized of water.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7*Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


In order to support your interpretation, that being born of water means baptized in water, one would need to re-render the above passage to something similar like this:



John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be baptized again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be baptized when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be baptized?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is baptized of the flesh is flesh; and that which is baptized of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be baptized again.



Perhaps that makes perfect sense to you, but I'm pretty certain that the rest of us do not buy that rendering. But that's how it would have to be rendered if born really means baptized as you keep insisting. We have to remain consistent. Born can't mean one thing in one verse, yet mean something entirely different in the verses surrounding it. If it means baptized in verse 5, then it means that in the surrounding verses as well.
IMO, being anti-water people doesn't seem like such a bad idea after all.

embankmentlb
May 8th 2009, 02:21 PM
Except that anti-water people have to dream up a new meaning for water every time they come across it in NT. Here it is spirit. Here it is the word. Here it is womb water and so on. If one interprets water as water. (the H20 kind) then every thing locks into place. Not even a hint of a contradiction.

My point is this...You are saying that womb water is a requirement for salvation as well as spirit. So either those living souls not having been born of the womb water are condemnd or else your doctrine is flawed! Take your pick!

all the best...

This is a joke right? Clearly the scripture is saying naturally born & spiritually born.

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 02:26 PM
Perhaps so...yet at the same time, many of us have not come up with a single account where born of water actually means baptized of water.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7*Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


In order to support your interpretation, that being born of water means baptized in water, one would need to re-render the above passage to something similar like this:



John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be baptized again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be baptized when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be baptized?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is baptized of the flesh is flesh; and that which is baptized of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be baptized again.



Perhaps that makes perfect sense to you, but I'm pretty certain that the rest of us do not buy that rendering. But that's how it would have to be rendered if born really means baptized as you keep insisting. We have to remain consistent. Born can't mean one thing in one verse, yet mean something entirely different in the verses surrounding it. If it means baptized in verse 5, then it means that in the surrounding verses as well.
IMO, being anti-water people doesn't seem like such a bad idea after all.

With what Jesus commanded in the following;

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

We can see that we can teach or preach to all nations, but Christ is the only one that can baptize with the Spirit, so how are the Apostles to keep Christs commandment to baptize?

I keep asking this qusetion but it seems to be being missed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 8th 2009, 02:28 PM
I have yet to see anyone refute Peter in Acts 2:38, where he plainly says, "repent, and.......be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins; and you shall receive the Holy Spirit. Seems many believe that everyone at Pentecost had already received the Holy Spirit.

IOW there must be a response to the gospel (hearing). Peter just gave them the gospel, now he tells them to respond.

Response to the gospel requires specific actions which define Christian life within the Church.

embankmentlb
May 8th 2009, 02:50 PM
I have yet to see anyone refute Peter in Acts 2:38, where he plainly says, "repent, and.......be baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sins; and you shall receive the Holy Spirit. Seems many believe that everyone at Pentecost had already received the Holy Spirit.

IOW there must be a response to the gospel (hearing). Peter just gave them the gospel, now he tells them to respond.

Response to the gospel requires specific actions which define Christian life within the Church.
The only response i am aware of is to admit you are a sinner & that you want Jesus to guide you. beyond that Nothing is required. Being baptized is being literally transformed from a sinner to a saint by excepting Jesus.

BroRog
May 8th 2009, 02:53 PM
Except that anti-water people have to dream up a new meaning for water every time they come across it in NT. Here it is spirit. Here it is the word. Here it is womb water and so on. If one interprets water as water. (the H20 kind) then every thing locks into place. Not even a hint of a contradiction.

My point is this...You are saying that womb water is a requirement for salvation as well as spirit. So either those living souls not having been born of the womb water are condemnd or else your doctrine is flawed! Take your pick!

all the best...

I don't think the anti-water people, as you call them, are dreaming up a new meaning for water. Water is water, whether you find it in the womb or in the baptismal.

But let me try to explain this interpretation as I see it.

Let's follow the dialog and see the logic of how it progresses.

Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Typical of Jesus, he says something provocative and a little cryptic. What does he mean born "again"?

Nicodemus: "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Here Nicodemus seems to take Jesus literally, though I believe Nicodemus knew Jesus was speaking a little cryptically. He just didn't know what to think and so he asks his questions. Notice that it was Nicodemus who began to think in terms of returning to his mother's womb.

Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In John's gospel it becomes clear that when Jesus has dialog with people, he will use what they say in his next response. And so, if this were the case here, we see another example of this. Nicodemus raised the issue of mother's womb. And so Jesus says that a man must be born of "water", that is, "from the mother's womb" and from "the spirit" that is from above.

Jesus: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Another cryptic statement but a little easier to understand. Both the mother and child are flesh. That which is born of mother, who is flesh, is a child who is also flesh. The Holy Spirit is spirit. And the person who is born again will have a renewed spirit. In other words, to be born again is to have a spiritual rebirth.

I believe the anti-water people are simply following the dialog between Jesus and Nicodemus. And since Nicodemus mentions mother's womb, Jesus uses that concept in his next remark.

fuzzi
May 8th 2009, 05:04 PM
Hi Fuzzi...You are speaking to a brother in Christ, you might want to be a bit more kind with your words. Would you consider doing that?
Well, I wasn't purposely being unkind with my words, brother.

As far as not getting your gender correct, a name such as 'kay-gee' is gender neutral, just as fuzzi is. I didn't realize you were male.

I'm female, but I don't get offended when people think I'm male. No problem. :)


John146 is not a brother in Christ to me. I know a brother by his doctrine How am I being unkind? I am only trying to correct false doctrine. I am being as nice as I can be considering my patience was exhausted long ago with the anti-water people.
I see. So, by your standards, those who are 'anti-water people' aren't considered to be your brothers and sisters in Christ?

I don't believe that baptism in water is necessary for salvation. In your eyes, does that make me a heathen?


I have read the NT forwards, backwards every which way. If I just listened to others I would probably be anti-water as well! When you put it all together and are completely honest, water baptism is the only conclusion. Sorry Fuzzi. I have been studying and preaching it 27 years. I've heard all the objections. None hold up. For the first several centuries, the church understood clearly what baptism meant.
You might consider reading 1 Corinthians 13 again, you missed something.

fuzzi
May 8th 2009, 05:06 PM
The only response i am aware of is to admit you are a sinner & that you want Jesus to guide you. beyond that Nothing is required. Being baptized is being literally transformed from a sinner to a saint by excepting Jesus.
Amen.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ...
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:9, 10, 13)

John146
May 8th 2009, 08:39 PM
Except that anti-water people have to dream up a new meaning for water every time they come across it in NT. Here it is spirit. Here it is the word. Here it is womb water and so on. If one interprets water as water. (the H20 kind) then every thing locks into place. Not even a hint of a contradiction.

My point is this...You are saying that womb water is a requirement for salvation as well as spirit. So either those living souls not having been born of the womb water are condemnd or else your doctrine is flawed! Take your pick!

all the best...No, I am saying being born of the Spirit is required to enter the kingdom of God and not being born of water. That is why Jesus said in the very next verse "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" and does not say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". Your response when I pointed that out before? "Who cares?". Wow, that's not the way we should think of Jesus' words. He said what He did in verse 6 for a reason. He was contrasting physical birth with spiritual birth. Spiritual birth is of the Holy Spirit and nothing physical.

You choose to read the verse without considering the surrounding context and without considering the fact that nowhere else is water baptism referred to as being born of water or anything similar.

John146
May 8th 2009, 08:43 PM
With what Jesus commanded in the following;

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

We can see that we can teach or preach to all nations, but Christ is the only one that can baptize with the Spirit, so how are the Apostles to keep Christs commandment to baptize?

I keep asking this qusetion but it seems to be being missed.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsYour question isn't being answered because the answer is obvious: they baptized with water. But here is what you're missing. Some of us are discussing this issue in terms of whether or not water baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be baptized but the reason for doing it should not be to try to earn or ensure one's salvation.

Let me ask you something. What if someone repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be baptized. Would that person be saved?

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 09:46 PM
Your question isn't being answered because the answer is obvious: they baptized with water. But here is what you're missing. Some of us are discussing this issue in terms of whether or not water baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be baptized but the reason for doing it should not be to try to earn or ensure one's salvation.

Let me ask you something. What if someone repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be baptized. Would that person be saved?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This does not say that if you die without the chance to be baptized that you are damned but if you do not believe.

With that in mind as far as Christ is concerned we must be baptized as he has commanded.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 01:09 AM
Your question isn't being answered because the answer is obvious: they baptized with water. But here is what you're missing. Some of us are discussing this issue in terms of whether or not water baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be baptized but the reason for doing it should not be to try to earn or ensure one's salvation.

Let me ask you something. What if someone repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be baptized. Would that person be saved?

John, the same can be said of belief. What is someone heard the Gospel was wavering back and forth and just the moment before they decided they would believe, they died. Would they be saved? Situations like this are up to God, we cannot use these scenarios to interpret Scripture. We must go by what Scripture says. If God says one must believe and be baptized, and that person dies before they are baptized, that is up to God. He knows the heart. However, whether that person is saved or not does not negate what the Scriptures tell us.

kay-gee
May 9th 2009, 01:27 AM
The only response i am aware of is to admit you are a sinner & that you want Jesus to guide you. beyond that Nothing is required. Being baptized is being literally transformed from a sinner to a saint by excepting Jesus.

Wrong you are! Read Acts 8:36-39. If you tell me that is not real water, then you have some serious comprehension issues.

all the best...

kay-gee
May 9th 2009, 01:30 AM
Your question isn't being answered because the answer is obvious: they baptized with water. But here is what you're missing. Some of us are discussing this issue in terms of whether or not water baptism is necessary for salvation. It is not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be baptized but the reason for doing it should not be to try to earn or ensure one's salvation.

Let me ask you something. What if someone repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be baptized. Would that person be saved?

Then simply tell us what Acts2:38 says and means. We're waiting. This oughta be good!

all the best...

embankmentlb
May 9th 2009, 01:33 AM
Wrong you are! Read Acts 8:36-39. If you tell me that is not real water, then you have some serious comprehension issues.

all the best...
Some were dunked in water & some were not. The point is that being dunked is purely optional.

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 03:01 AM
Some were dunked in water & some were not. The point is that being dunked is purely optional.

Where in Scripture do we find that it is optional?

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 10:52 AM
John, the same can be said of belief. What is someone heard the Gospel was wavering back and forth and just the moment before they decided they would believe, they died. Would they be saved? Situations like this are up to God, we cannot use these scenarios to interpret Scripture. We must go by what Scripture says. If God says one must believe and be baptized, and that person dies before they are baptized, that is up to God. He knows the heart. However, whether that person is saved or not does not negate what the Scriptures tell us.

Thanks Butch,

This is so true, Amen!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 9th 2009, 11:03 AM
Where in Scripture do we find that it is optional?
The absence of the Bible saying that being baptized in water is mandatory or even implying that it is necessary makes it so. If that was as important as "man" wishes it were why didn't someone like Paul say " be baptized in water if you wish to follow Jesus".

kay-gee
May 9th 2009, 11:53 AM
Some were dunked in water & some were not. The point is that being dunked is purely optional.

And your scriptural back-up for this statement is where?

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 01:01 PM
The absence of the Bible saying that being baptized in water is mandatory or even implying that it is necessary makes it so. If that was as important as "man" wishes it were why didn't someone like Paul say " be baptized in water if you wish to follow Jesus".

Whilst we wait for your scripture what do you believe Jesus meant in the following?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Remember that the Apostles baptized with water.

Firstfruits

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 02:42 PM
The absence of the Bible saying that being baptized in water is mandatory or even implying that it is necessary makes it so. If that was as important as "man" wishes it were why didn't someone like Paul say " be baptized in water if you wish to follow Jesus".


An argument from silence is not valid. The Bible says nothing of Abraham going to the bathroom, do we assume he never went? However silence is not the issue. There are numerous references to water baptism as necessary for salvation. Romans 6:4, 1Peter 3:20-21, Titus 3:5, Mark 16:16. The command in Mark 16 to the apostles is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them. If this command was only to the apostles, then no one could be saved after they died. If this command is to all disciples then it must be water because we cannot baptize with the Spirit. Jesus said in this passage, whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. Paul, in Romans 6 says that we were buried with Christ in baptism, he says we we planted in the likeness of his death. The Greek word likeness means an image or a representation. An image or representation is something that is seen. Water baptism is can be seen, Spiritual cannot, so obviously Paul here is referring to water baptism. Peter directly connects the water of the flood with saving Noah, then ties it to our baptism. Not to mention, the Disciples had spent 3 and a half years with Jesus, they had probably baptized thousands in water, when Jesus said go and make disciples, baptizing them, what is the most logical thing they would conclude? Water, Jesus does not specify the type f baptism, therefore one would understand it to be the same type they had been performing all along. It would follow that Jesus would specify Spiritual baptism if he was changing the baptism that the apostles were to give.

embankmentlb
May 9th 2009, 05:36 PM
An argument from silence is not valid. The Bible says nothing of Abraham going to the bathroom, do we assume he never went? However silence is not the issue. There are numerous references to water baptism as necessary for salvation. Romans 6:4, 1Peter 3:20-21, Titus 3:5, Mark 16:16. The command in Mark 16 to the apostles is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them. If this command was only to the apostles, then no one could be saved after they died. If this command is to all disciples then it must be water because we cannot baptize with the Spirit. Jesus said in this passage, whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. Paul, in Romans 6 says that we were buried with Christ in baptism, he says we we planted in the likeness of his death. The Greek word likeness means an image or a representation. An image or representation is something that is seen. Water baptism is can be seen, Spiritual cannot, so obviously Paul here is referring to water baptism. Peter directly connects the water of the flood with saving Noah, then ties it to our baptism. Not to mention, the Disciples had spent 3 and a half years with Jesus, they had probably baptized thousands in water, when Jesus said go and make disciples, baptizing them, what is the most logical thing they would conclude? Water, Jesus does not specify the type f baptism, therefore one would understand it to be the same type they had been performing all along. It would follow that Jesus would specify Spiritual baptism if he was changing the baptism that the apostles were to give.

Thanks for posting the scriptures above, Not one says we are to be baptized with water. That is the point.

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 05:54 PM
Whilst we wait for your scripture what do you believe Jesus meant in the following?

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Remember that the Apostles baptized with water.

Firstfruits

In the Great Commission we read

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Notice that baptism, along with teaching, are the functions of making disciples. That is, Jesus has commanded the eleven disciples to make disciples. The process of making a disciple involves baptizing them and teaching them.

Therefore, since baptism in Jesus' name is a function of becoming a disciple of Jesus, the term "baptism" in Mark 16:16 functions as a metonymy, substituting the name of an attribute or feature for the name of the thing itself. In other words, he means, those who believe and become my disciples will be saved.

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 06:26 PM
Thanks for posting the scriptures above, Not one says we are to be baptized with water. That is the point.

May I ask if you have been baptized into Christ, if so when and how was this done? Does it compare to the doctine of the Apostles and how they baptized those that came to Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 06:30 PM
In the Great Commission we read

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

Notice that baptism, along with teaching, are the functions of making disciples. That is, Jesus has commanded the eleven disciples to make disciples. The process of making a disciple involves baptizing them and teaching them.

Therefore, since baptism in Jesus' name is a function of becoming a disciple of Jesus, the term "baptism" in Mark 16:16 functions as a metonymy, substituting the name of an attribute or feature for the name of the thing itself. In other words, he means, those who believe and become my disciples will be saved.

Can the Apostles teach how to baptize with the Spirit?

Firstfruits

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 06:42 PM
Can the Apostles teach how to baptize with the Spirit?

Firstfruits


According to Jesus, baptism in the spirit is done "from above."

kay-gee
May 10th 2009, 12:46 AM
According to Jesus, baptism in the spirit is done "from above."

Then it is not the baptism that the apostles performed.

all the best...

kay-gee
May 10th 2009, 12:48 AM
Thanks for posting the scriptures above, Not one says we are to be baptized with water. That is the point.

We are still waiting for the scripture that says water baptism is optional.

all the best...

BroRog
May 10th 2009, 01:03 AM
We are still waiting for the scripture that says water baptism is optional.

all the best...

Water baptism is optional because it is not essential. That is, water baptism is not vitally necessary. Drinking water is vitally necessary because without water a person will die within a few days. By analogy, in order for water baptism to be vitally necessary for eternal life we would have to say that eternal life was not possible without it. Just as a man would die if he didn't drink water, we would need to prove from scripture that a man would not find eternal life without it.

I don't see where the scriptures teach that water baptism is vitally necessary in order for a man or woman to find eternal life. We can surely find examples in which eternal life was granted before or in the absence of water baptism.

Butch5
May 10th 2009, 02:56 AM
Thanks for posting the scriptures above, Not one says we are to be baptized with water. That is the point.

Yes they do, they may not spell it out, but all of them speak of water. Titus 3:5 says, that God saved us through the "bath" of regeneration. A bath is in water. As I said the reference in Romans 6:4 has to be water since Spiritual baptism cannot be seen. Peter ties the flood to baptism. These are all references to water. Peter specifically says that Noah was saved by water, then says that baptism is the anti-type of being saved by water. Again if water baptism is not what is being spoken of in Mark 16, then no one could be saved after the apostles died, because Jesus told them to baptize, they were the only one who could lay hands on someone and give the Spirit. If this is a Spiritual baptism, we cannot do it. Therefore we could not be disciples of Christ.

Firstfruits
May 10th 2009, 10:33 AM
According to Jesus, baptism in the spirit is done "from above."

When Christ commanded his disciples to teach and to baptize, if Christ meant that, which is done fron above, how were they to obey the commission?

Did Jesus give them an impossible command?

Firstfruits

kay-gee
May 10th 2009, 11:22 AM
Water baptism is optional because it is not essential. That is, water baptism is not vitally necessary. Drinking water is vitally necessary because without water a person will die within a few days. By analogy, in order for water baptism to be vitally necessary for eternal life we would have to say that eternal life was not possible without it. Just as a man would die if he didn't drink water, we would need to prove from scripture that a man would not find eternal life without it.

I don't see where the scriptures teach that water baptism is vitally necessary in order for a man or woman to find eternal life. We can surely find examples in which eternal life was granted before or in the absence of water baptism.

So am I to understand then that commandments are options? I trust that you are able to give us this elusive verse that embankment is looking for!

While you're at it, please give us a Post-Pentecost example of conversion, where eternal life is given without Baptism.

all the best...

divaD
May 10th 2009, 02:07 PM
The one baptized rises up out of the water a new creature in Christ
Jesus – born anew…born again of “water and the Spirit



How can someone be born again of water? I can agree with you on the Spirit part, but the water part just doesn't make sense, in relation to being born again. So, are you saying that when one is born again, not only do they receive a new Spirit(the Holy Spirit), they also receive new water? What is this new water in which they receive?

BroRog
May 10th 2009, 04:53 PM
When Christ commanded his disciples to teach and to baptize, if Christ meant that, which is done fron above, how were they to obey the commission?

Did Jesus give them an impossible command?

Firstfruits

The command was to make disciples. Baptizing in water and teaching them Jesus words were aspects of making them into disciples. To become indwelt with the Spirit, as in Romans 8, is something God does himself.

BroRog
May 10th 2009, 05:46 PM
So am I to understand then that commandments are options?

Jesus commanded that the eleven disciples make other disciples, placing the emphasis on the fact that these new converts would be the disciples of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, not the disciples of the eleven.

He commanded that the eleven make disciples by baptizing them in water, and teaching them everything that he said.

In my view, it's an open question as to whether baptism in water has the same meaning and significance as it did during the first century. For instance, some churches baptize members as an initiation ceremony to become a member of that particular church or denomination. One could properly ask, did Jesus command that churches make members for themselves? In my opinion, I don't think so.

And so, if we are to insist that folks get baptized in water, we must be sure to insist on the actual purpose of the baptism, which is not to create members of churches but to repent, appeal to God for a good conscience, seek to become a disciple of Jesus, and to have simpatico with the saints. But if baptism has been reinterpreted to mean something entirely different, then I don't agree that Jesus wants us to promote any other interpretation of the Baptism ritual.

When Peter and Paul speak about baptism in their epistles to the saints, they don't speak of it directly as an instrument of regeneration. Rather, they remind the reader of what the baptism means symbolically.

For instance, in 1Peter 3, Peter reminds his readers that it was baptism that saved them, but not the ritual water itself. Rather, the ritual of water baptism symbolized an appeal for a good conscience, which was the true essence behind the ritual. That is, it wasn't the water baptism that saved them, it was the appeal for a good conscience that saved them.

By convention, the visible act of baptism in water had come to symbolize the invisible, inner, spiritual thoughts and feelings of the initiate, who wanted a new life, a new outlook, and a new desire to repent and appeal to God for mercy. Peter reminds his readers that it wasn't the outward visible act of baptism that saved them, but the inner reorientation of the thoughts, feelings, commitments -- righteousness for its own sake, attitudes -- humble and contrite, outlook -- God is God and I'm not, to name a few.

In my view, Jesus and the apostles tried to ween us away from our natural tendency and propensity for religion, toward a genuine and authentic encounter with the maker.

In Romans 6, Paul also argues from the perspective that the ritual act of water baptism served as a symbolic act and he appeals to the meaning and significance of the act, rather than the act itself. He reminds his readers, for instance, that those who were baptized were internally seeking a new life in Christ while they repudiated their old life of sin. From that perspective he argues that a convert to Christianity would not purposely live in sin because it makes no logical sense for a person to make an appeal to God to be washed clean of sin and then return to sin.

In any case, Peter and Paul appeal to the meaning and significance of the act, not to the act itself. It seems to me, that if a new believer, living in modern times when the ritual act of water baptism has various implications, some of which are outside and antithetical to the gospel message, has internally made that appeal to God, has internally repudiated sin, has internally begun to transform their thinking and the renewing of the mind to a new orientation and is seeking a new life in Christ, that person already has what the water baptism represents.

embankmentlb
May 10th 2009, 06:53 PM
Yes they do, they may not spell it out, but all of them speak of water. Titus 3:5 says, that God saved us through the "bath" of regeneration. A bath is in water. As I said the reference in Romans 6:4 has to be water since Spiritual baptism cannot be seen. Peter ties the flood to baptism. These are all references to water. Peter specifically says that Noah was saved by water, then says that baptism is the anti-type of being saved by water. Again if water baptism is not what is being spoken of in Mark 16, then no one could be saved after the apostles died, because Jesus told them to baptize, they were the only one who could lay hands on someone and give the Spirit. If this is a Spiritual baptism, we cannot do it. Therefore we could not be disciples of Christ.
Baptism is a cleansing process. It's a cleansing of the soul,a change of mind. It is a spiritual bath leading to a spiritual rebirth.
Some Christians believed it had to do with an actual washing or water. They were mistaken. Think about all the points in the gospels were Jesus rebukes
folks for doing acts to justify themselves before men. Baptism in water is no different. Look at the book of Galatians were Paul rebukes the Jewish Christians for asking the gentile Christians to be circumcised. One can substitute the word circumcised with any number of requirements that man places on another person as a sign of their salvation. God doe's not care about such trivial stuff. To one who thinks he does, I would say he does not truly know God.

embankmentlb
May 10th 2009, 07:04 PM
May I ask if you have been baptized into Christ, if so when and how was this done? Does it compare to the doctine of the Apostles and how they baptized those that came to Christ?

Firstfruits

Yes, I underwent my baptism one evening in my home when i realized i needed a relationship with Jesus & asked him to lead me. That was about 8 years ago.
I was also baptized with water ceremonially in the river Jordan on a trip to Israel in 2006.

Firstfruits
May 10th 2009, 09:01 PM
Yes, I underwent my baptism one evening in my home when i realized i needed a relationship with Jesus & asked him to lead me. That was about 8 years ago.
I was also baptized with water ceremonially in the river Jordan on a trip to Israel in 2006.

Thanks Embankmentib,

What was the purpose of your baptism in the river Jordon?

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 10th 2009, 11:21 PM
Thanks Embankmentib,

What was the purpose of your baptism in the river Jordon?

Firstfruits

We toured the Holy Land for the better part of 2 weeks, a fun ,interesting & educational trip. How can you pass up being Baptized in the Jordon?

Probably my favorite experience of the trip was just sitting on the hotel balcony at night reading the Bible while overlooking the skyline of Jerusalem.
Very spiritual.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 12:26 AM
Baptism is a cleansing process. It's a cleansing of the soul,a change of mind. It is a spiritual bath leading to a spiritual rebirth.
Some Christians believed it had to do with an actual washing or water. They were mistaken. Think about all the points in the gospels were Jesus rebukes
folks for doing acts to justify themselves before men. Baptism in water is no different. Look at the book of Galatians were Paul rebukes the Jewish Christians for asking the gentile Christians to be circumcised. One can substitute the word circumcised with any number of requirements that man places on another person as a sign of their salvation. God doe's not care about such trivial stuff. To one who thinks he does, I would say he does not truly know God.


You make claims with no Scriptural support.The Scriptures I gave have clear reference to water baptism. As for Galatians, the Judaizers were telling the gentile Christians that they must follow the law in addition to believing. Circumcision was a requirement of the Mosaic law, it was this law that they were trying to make the gentile Christians follow. Paul says no they need not follow the Mosaic law. However, baptism is not of the Mosaic law. It is required of the New Covenant as per Christ. The same one who said you must believe also said you must be baptized in water (Mark 16:16), born again, of water and Spirit (John 3:5).

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 12:55 AM
You make claims with no Scriptural support.The Scriptures I gave have clear reference to water baptism. As for Galatians, the Judaizers were telling the gentile Christians that they must follow the law in addition to believing. Circumcision was a requirement of the Mosaic law, it was this law that they were trying to make the gentile Christians follow. Paul says no they need not follow the Mosaic law. However, baptism is not of the Mosaic law. It is required of the New Covenant as per Christ. The same one who said you must believe also said you must be baptized in water (Mark 16:16), born again, of water and Spirit (John 3:5).

Mark 16: 16 has nothing to do with water.

John 3:5

Have we not talked about this already? I mean the very next line explains 3:5.
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

This is getting a little nutty.

True, Galatians is dealing with the mosaic law but it can be anyones law.
The idea of making any requirement necessary other than excepting Jesus a requirement for salvation is basically making your own laws. If i put myself under Butch's Laws, I am in effect nullifying what Christ did for me.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 01:18 AM
Mark 16: 16 has nothing to do with water.

John 3:5

Have we not talked about this already? I mean the very next line explains 3:5.
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

This is getting a little nutty.

True, Galatians is dealing with the mosaic law but it can be anyones law.
The idea of making any requirement necessary other than excepting Jesus a requirement for salvation is basically making your own laws. If i put myself under Butch's Laws, I am in effect nullifying what Christ did for me.

Mark 16:16 has Jesus telling the apostles to go an preach the gospel to all nations, how are the apostles to baptize with the Holy Spirit?

John 3:5 Speaks of being born again, it consists of two parts, born of water and Spirit. Jesus statement about that which is born of flesh is flesh, is a reply to Nicodemus' statement about entering a second time into his mother's womb. In John 3:3 Jesus says you must be born again, then in verse 5 He explains what being born again is, it is being born of water and Spirit.

Making your own laws? Paul said whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. So, calling on the name of the Lord is a requirement. Peter said, repent and be baptized, so repentance and baptism are requirements. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized, so belief is a requirement. The writer of Hebrews said, Christ became eternal salvation to all who obey Him, so, obedience is a requirement. Are all of the NT writers making up their own laws?

kay-gee
May 11th 2009, 04:54 AM
Jesus commanded that the eleven disciples make other disciples, placing the emphasis on the fact that these new converts would be the disciples of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, not the disciples of the eleven.

He commanded that the eleven make disciples by baptizing them in water, and teaching them everything that he said.

In my view, it's an open question as to whether baptism in water has the same meaning and significance as it did during the first century. For instance, some churches baptize members as an initiation ceremony to become a member of that particular church or denomination. One could properly ask, did Jesus command that churches make members for themselves? In my opinion, I don't think so.

And so, if we are to insist that folks get baptized in water, we must be sure to insist on the actual purpose of the baptism, which is not to create members of churches but to repent, appeal to God for a good conscience, seek to become a disciple of Jesus, and to have simpatico with the saints. But if baptism has been reinterpreted to mean something entirely different, then I don't agree that Jesus wants us to promote any other interpretation of the Baptism ritual.

When Peter and Paul speak about baptism in their epistles to the saints, they don't speak of it directly as an instrument of regeneration. Rather, they remind the reader of what the baptism means symbolically.

For instance, in 1Peter 3, Peter reminds his readers that it was baptism that saved them, but not the ritual water itself. Rather, the ritual of water baptism symbolized an appeal for a good conscience, which was the true essence behind the ritual. That is, it wasn't the water baptism that saved them, it was the appeal for a good conscience that saved them.

By convention, the visible act of baptism in water had come to symbolize the invisible, inner, spiritual thoughts and feelings of the initiate, who wanted a new life, a new outlook, and a new desire to repent and appeal to God for mercy. Peter reminds his readers that it wasn't the outward visible act of baptism that saved them, but the inner reorientation of the thoughts, feelings, commitments -- righteousness for its own sake, attitudes -- humble and contrite, outlook -- God is God and I'm not, to name a few.

In my view, Jesus and the apostles tried to ween us away from our natural tendency and propensity for religion, toward a genuine and authentic encounter with the maker.

In Romans 6, Paul also argues from the perspective that the ritual act of water baptism served as a symbolic act and he appeals to the meaning and significance of the act, rather than the act itself. He reminds his readers, for instance, that those who were baptized were internally seeking a new life in Christ while they repudiated their old life of sin. From that perspective he argues that a convert to Christianity would not purposely live in sin because it makes no logical sense for a person to make an appeal to God to be washed clean of sin and then return to sin.

In any case, Peter and Paul appeal to the meaning and significance of the act, not to the act itself. It seems to me, that if a new believer, living in modern times when the ritual act of water baptism has various implications, some of which are outside and antithetical to the gospel message, has internally made that appeal to God, has internally repudiated sin, has internally begun to transform their thinking and the renewing of the mind to a new orientation and is seeking a new life in Christ, that person already has what the water baptism represents.


I am in agreement with most of what you say here.

Water Baptism is a necessary component of Salvation (not the only one). It must be done to the correct person (one capable of believing, Acts 8:37)

In the right way...by immersion...(John 3:23)

For the right reason...REMISSION OF SINS (Acts 2:38)

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 08:30 AM
We toured the Holy Land for the better part of 2 weeks, a fun ,interesting & educational trip. How can you pass up being Baptized in the Jordon?

Probably my favorite experience of the trip was just sitting on the hotel balcony at night reading the Bible while overlooking the skyline of Jerusalem.
Very spiritual.

Thanks Embankmentib,

I can understand how it must have been to at Jordan, but why did you get baptized in Jordan?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 10:58 AM
Mark 16:16 has Jesus telling the apostles to go an preach the gospel to all nations, how are the apostles to baptize with the Holy Spirit?

John 3:5 Speaks of being born again, it consists of two parts, born of water and Spirit. Jesus statement about that which is born of flesh is flesh, is a reply to Nicodemus' statement about entering a second time into his mother's womb. In John 3:3 Jesus says you must be born again, then in verse 5 He explains what being born again is, it is being born of water and Spirit.

Making your own laws? Paul said whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. So, calling on the name of the Lord is a requirement. Peter said, repent and be baptized, so repentance and baptism are requirements. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized, so belief is a requirement. The writer of Hebrews said, Christ became eternal salvation to all who obey Him, so, obedience is a requirement. Are all of the NT writers making up their own laws?

Romans 10:8-9

But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It's hard to argue with that.

If you read the Bible as a bunch of unrelated one liners then you may have bigger problems than water baptism. Do you read all things in this way?

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 11:01 AM
Thanks Embankmentib,

I can understand how it must have been to at Jordan, but why did you get baptized in Jordan?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It was not out of any obligation to others. I did if for the experience. I have had many opportunities to be baptized in a Church setting but have felt no obligation to do so.

Romans 10:8-9

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

kay-gee
May 11th 2009, 11:37 AM
It was not out of any obligation to others. I did if for the experience. I have had many opportunities to be baptized in a Church setting but have felt no obligation to do so.

Romans 10:8-9

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

No water baptism then you did NOT believe Him in your heart.

all the best...

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 11:56 AM
No water baptism then you did NOT believe Him in your heart.

all the best...

That sounds nice & fills baptismals but that is not what is said or even implied.
Again, If you add things to the gospel that is not there you in effect are making your own laws. Then the rules(you make up) become your crutch instead of Jesus being your crutch. Mandatory Church attendance, speaking in tongues, drinking poison, picking up snakes, baptizing in water all are crutches to join a church club but not Jesus' Church.
I have no desire to join your social club.

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 11:57 AM
It was not out of any obligation to others. I did if for the experience. I have had many opportunities to be baptized in a Church setting but have felt no obligation to do so.

Romans 10:8-9

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Was it not in obligation to Christs commandment/commission?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Thanks again.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 12:03 PM
Was it not in obligation to Christs commandment/commission?

Mt 28:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Thanks again.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Baptizing = converting.
Baptizing doe's not = dunking in water

It could be said this way.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, converting them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 12:50 PM
Baptizing = converting.
Baptizing doe's not = dunking in water

It could be said this way.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, converting them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

How would you explain the following scriptures?

Mt 3:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mt 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Jn 1:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

There are only two types of baptism, water and the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost can only be given from above so as John was sent by God to baptize with water would this therefore not apply to the Disciples as to how they should baptize?

God gives the Holy Ghost;

Acts 5:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

In the following scripture even though they had received the Holy Spirit they were commanded to be baptized with water.

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 01:57 PM
Matt 3:6 was baptism through John(the baptist), surely you are not saying that his baptism is the same as being baptized into Jesus?
Matt 3:11 explains this. John baptizes with WATER, Jesus baptizes with the Holly Spirit & fire.
John 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
Who is baptizing with water? Why is he baptizing?

John 1:33*
33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
Why was John baptizing with water?
How doe’s Jesus baptize ?
Acts 10 : 47-48
Some people did use water for baptism & some did not. Peter, is a great example of a person, like we have today, who has great love for Jesus but not the smartest guy around. He frequently contradicted himself. He was like the Joe six-pack of apostles. Both Jesus & Paul rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding. Peter is the classic case of a person with zeal for God, yet not always according to the scriptures.

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 02:31 PM
Matt 3:6 was baptism through John(the baptist), surely you are not saying that his baptism is the same as being baptized into Jesus?
Matt 3:11 explains this. John baptizes with WATER, Jesus baptizes with the Holly Spirit & fire.
John 1:31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
Who is baptizing with water? Why is he baptizing?

John 1:33*
33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'
Why was John baptizing with water?
How doe’s Jesus baptize ?
Acts 10 : 47-48
Some people did use water for baptism & some did not. Peter, is a great example of a person, like we have today, who has great love for Jesus but not the smartest guy around. He frequently contradicted himself. He was like the Joe six-pack of apostles. Both Jesus & Paul rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding. Peter is the classic case of a person with zeal for God, yet not always according to the scriptures.

Thanks for your reply, however it was commanded that those that had received to Holy Spirit should be baptized.

In the following scripture even though they had received the Holy Spirit they were commanded to be baptized with water.

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter did not contradict Jesus regarding baptism as he did as Christ commanded the disciples to do.

Can we forbid water if that has been commanded?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 03:10 PM
Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

These twelve men received the holy spirit, Why didn't Paul dunk them in water? Why didn't Paul say "now that you have the HS go find water & submerge yourself as Jesus commanded?

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 03:16 PM
Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

These twelve men received the holy spirit, Why didn't Paul dunk them in water? Why didn't Paul say "now that you have the HS go find water & submerge yourself as Jesus commanded?

They had already been "dunked" in water as you put it in the name of Jesus.

Firstfruits

divaD
May 11th 2009, 03:22 PM
Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

These twelve men received the holy spirit, Why didn't Paul dunk them in water? Why didn't Paul say "now that you have the HS go find water & submerge yourself as Jesus commanded?



3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.


Unless I'm misunderstanding something, John's baptism would be water baptism.

embankmentlb
May 11th 2009, 04:17 PM
however it was commanded that those that had received to Holy Spirit should be baptized.

Firstfruits

Ah, but in acts 19, Those who were Baptized with Johns baptism did not have the Holy Spirit. They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Your argument was that in a response to having the Holy Spirit you should be dunked in water. It seems to me that when Paul came in contact with someone who had never even heard of the HS & they received the HS he should have at least hinted that there was one more thing you must do.
"Now that you have the Holy Spirit, In order to be complete according to the Church of FF you need to submerge yourself in water". Paul didn't say that.

Paul did say this.
Romans 10:9

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Veretax
May 11th 2009, 05:04 PM
Man I go on vacation, and find this thread. How Sad. Seriously.

How can anyone come out and say that baptism is necessary for salvation? Was Abraham Baptized? How about Isaac or Jacob? It is an utter ridiculous thing to assume baptism is necessary, and if it does, does that mean the OT saints could not be saved at all? And what about the Lord's Supper? That was not even hardly mentioned that I recall in the OT anymore.

Seriously guys, let's stop reading into it what your Church's doctrine says. Is baptism important? I believe it is, but it is not on the same level of importance as is Faith in Christ. Let's try to remember that, and that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. not brothers and sisters in water baptism.

Teke
May 11th 2009, 06:14 PM
Is baptism important? I believe it is, but it is not on the same level of importance as is Faith in Christ.


You believe that, but you do not know that with all certainty. When Jesus was baptized, He said it was to fulfill all righteousness. What do you think that means? That water fulfills righteousness, or that the Son of God going into the water fulfills that righteousness.

In water baptism, it is God who does the baptizing, not the instrument He uses, be it a person or the water.

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 06:23 PM
Ah, but in acts 19, Those who were Baptized with Johns baptism did not have the Holy Spirit. They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Your argument was that in a response to having the Holy Spirit you should be dunked in water. It seems to me that when Paul came in contact with someone who had never even heard of the HS & they received the HS he should have at least hinted that there was one more thing you must do.
"Now that you have the Holy Spirit, In order to be complete according to the Church of FF you need to submerge yourself in water". Paul didn't say that.

Paul did say this.
Romans 10:9

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sorry but may I ask how this became "my Church"?

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 10:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Were they not Just being obedient to Christ commandment?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 11th 2009, 06:31 PM
Man I go on vacation, and find this thread. How Sad. Seriously.

How can anyone come out and say that baptism is necessary for salvation? Was Abraham Baptized? How about Isaac or Jacob? It is an utter ridiculous thing to assume baptism is necessary, and if it does, does that mean the OT saints could not be saved at all? And what about the Lord's Supper? That was not even hardly mentioned that I recall in the OT anymore.

Seriously guys, let's stop reading into it what your Church's doctrine says. Is baptism important? I believe it is, but it is not on the same level of importance as is Faith in Christ. Let's try to remember that, and that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. not brothers and sisters in water baptism.

Hope you enjoyed your vacation veretax,

What does it mean for you to be baptized in Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 11th 2009, 06:31 PM
You believe that, but you do not know that with all certainty. When Jesus was baptized, He said it was to fulfill all righteousness. What do you think that means? That water fulfills righteousness, or that the Son of God going into the water fulfills that righteousness.

In water baptism, it is God who does the baptizing, not the instrument He uses, be it a person or the water.


It is very simple. Jesus was a man without sin. Hence why John the Baptist thought it was not appropriate that he baptize Christ, but rather that he should baptize John. This was done for two reasons IMO, one to indicate the changing of focus from John's ministry to Christ. Secondly, to signify Christ as being the perfect passover lamb on the Cross. his baptism merely simplifies the clean heart he already had.

I would argue that the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the moment of faith today.


FirstFruits. To baptized in Christ (or into Christ) is to be united in the Spirit. One Faith, One Spirit, one Baptism.

BroRog
May 11th 2009, 07:18 PM
It is very simple. Jesus was a man without sin. Hence why John the Baptist thought it was not appropriate that he baptize Christ, but rather that he should baptize John. This was done for two reasons IMO, one to indicate the changing of focus from John's ministry to Christ. Secondly, to signify Christ as being the perfect passover lamb on the Cross. his baptism merely simplifies the clean heart he already had.

I agree with those two and would add a third, which is, that Jesus wanted to validate John's ministry in front of the Pharisees.

Welcome back Veretax. :)

Teke
May 11th 2009, 09:37 PM
It is very simple. Jesus was a man without sin. Hence why John the Baptist thought it was not appropriate that he baptize Christ, but rather that he should baptize John. This was done for two reasons IMO, one to indicate the changing of focus from John's ministry to Christ. Secondly, to signify Christ as being the perfect passover lamb on the Cross. his baptism merely simplifies the clean heart he already had.

I would argue that the baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the moment of faith today.


FirstFruits. To baptized in Christ (or into Christ) is to be united in the Spirit. One Faith, One Spirit, one Baptism.

That doesn't answer my question. Does the Son of God fulfill all righteousness by going into the water for baptism? is the question. If you say yes, then even if you are baptized by the Holy Spirit before water baptism (I have no idea what happens before water baptism BTW), that "all righteousness" isn't fulfilled without going into the water.

FYI, I believe that "all righteousness" means right worship, which Jesus teaches us.

kay-gee
May 11th 2009, 09:59 PM
You believe that, but you do not know that with all certainty. When Jesus was baptized, He said it was to fulfill all righteousness. What do you think that means? That water fulfills righteousness, or that the Son of God going into the water fulfills that righteousness.

In water baptism, it is God who does the baptizing, not the instrument He uses, be it a person or the water.

A thousand Amens to you Teke. Could not have put it better than that if I tried!

all the best...

kay-gee
May 11th 2009, 10:08 PM
Ah, but in acts 19, Those who were Baptized with Johns baptism did not have the Holy Spirit. They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Your argument was that in a response to having the Holy Spirit you should be dunked in water. It seems to me that when Paul came in contact with someone who had never even heard of the HS & they received the HS he should have at least hinted that there was one more thing you must do.
"Now that you have the Holy Spirit, In order to be complete according to the Church of FF you need to submerge yourself in water". Paul didn't say that.

Paul did say this.
Romans 10:9

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Hey... I'm still waiting for you to explain Acts 8:36 and Acts 10:47

Let's deal with that before you throw too many of your bizzare interpretations out there. Please.

all the best...

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 11:20 PM
Acts 19

Paul in Ephesus

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

These twelve men received the holy spirit, Why didn't Paul dunk them in water? Why didn't Paul say "now that you have the HS go find water & submerge yourself as Jesus commanded?

Baptism in the name of Jesus "is" water baptism.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 02:59 AM
That doesn't answer my question. Does the Son of God fulfill all righteousness by going into the water for baptism? is the question. If you say yes, then even if you are baptized by the Holy Spirit before water baptism (I have no idea what happens before water baptism BTW), that "all righteousness" isn't fulfilled without going into the water.

FYI, I believe that "all righteousness" means right worship, which Jesus teaches us.


There is actually a third option, that being that only Christ needed to fullfill all righteousness, as it is upon his righteousness that we can find salvation in the first place. If he was not, then the bible and apostles are wrong on many accounts. (which btw they aren't). You perceive that it is one or the other as if it has something to do with baptism, when in reality this had more to due with Christ showing himself as a qualified passover lamb, nothing more, nothing less.

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 06:40 AM
Baptism in the name of Jesus "is" water baptism.

Amen my Brother,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 06:50 AM
There is actually a third option, that being that only Christ needed to fullfill all righteousness, as it is upon his righteousness that we can find salvation in the first place. If he was not, then the bible and apostles are wrong on many accounts. (which btw they aren't). You perceive that it is one or the other as if it has something to do with baptism, when in reality this had more to due with Christ showing himself as a qualified passover lamb, nothing more, nothing less.

Christ has made baptism important since He has commanded it to be done, so can we choose to ignore Christs commands for what ever reason we may find?

What does it mean to you to be baptized into Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

chad
May 12th 2009, 07:03 AM
If Christ was the only one who needed to be baptized (to fulfill Righteousness), then why did John the Baptist continue to baptize and Jesus disciples still baptized when Jesus was alive and still with them?

(Mat 3:13 NIV) Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
(Mat 3:14 NIV) But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
(Mat 3:15 NIV) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

(John 4:1 NIV) The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, (John 4:2 NIV) although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.




There is actually a third option, that being that only Christ needed to fullfill all righteousness, as it is upon his righteousness that we can find salvation in the first place. If he was not, then the bible and apostles are wrong on many accounts. (which btw they aren't). You perceive that it is one or the other as if it has something to do with baptism, when in reality this had more to due with Christ showing himself as a qualified passover lamb, nothing more, nothing less.

kay-gee
May 12th 2009, 12:12 PM
To Butch, FirstFruits, and Chad...A big Amen!

I would also like to point out that Water baptism was GODs PURPOSE. The pharisees were willfully rejecting HIS purpose. (Luke7:30)

These were the guys that apparently knew the scriptures forward and backward.

Here we are in the 21st century. The spirit of the pharisees is alive and well!

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 12:28 PM
To Butch, FirstFruits, and Chad...A big Amen!

I would also like to point out that Water baptism was GODs PURPOSE. The pharisees were willfully rejecting HIS purpose. (Luke7:30)

These were the guys that apparently knew the scriptures forward and backward.

Here we are in the 21st century. The spirit of the pharisees is alive and well!

all the best...

Thanks Kay-gee,

The following shows the importance and meaning of being baptized into Christ.

Rom 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Cor 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Can we claim to have put on Christ without being baptized into Christ?

Acts 26:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Mt 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 12th 2009, 12:35 PM
There is actually a third option, that being that only Christ needed to fullfill all righteousness, as it is upon his righteousness that we can find salvation in the first place. If he was not, then the bible and apostles are wrong on many accounts. (which btw they aren't). You perceive that it is one or the other as if it has something to do with baptism, when in reality this had more to due with Christ showing himself as a qualified passover lamb, nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, I see baptism as a whole lot more. It is one of those things that recapture the essence of the OT sacraments into Christ. The eucharistic gathering of the feast being the other.

You say "only" Christ needed to fulfill all righteousness. But consider that if your faith works with God's grace in placing you in the body of Christ, then you being part of that, must also submit to such fulfillment of righteousness.

Christ is God's righteousness manifested to us. (1 Cor. 30). So if we are Christ's as we claim, then we will do the works of Christ. Just as Christ told the Jews if they claimed to be of Abraham, then they would do the works of Abraham. Such works done by faith that glorify God and His righteousness (meaning right acts/worship) are worshipful acts.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 12:46 PM
Christ has made baptism important since He has commanded it to be done, so can we choose to ignore Christs commands for what ever reason we may find?

What does it mean to you to be baptized into Christ?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I already answered you question First Fruits, if you are in the body of Christ, then you are baptized into Christ, and how do you know this? You know this if you have the comforter, the Holy Spirit within you.

Baptism in water does no more save than anything else we can do outwardly. For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of work, lest any should boast.

The question you should be asking, is what is the purpose of water Baptism. When I was young I used to believe that it had in effect replaced Circumcision, but clearly there were many passages that would refute that kind of thinking, as the jews were still doing just that. Baptism is simply the mechanism whereby a person of faith declares for all time his faith in Christ, and is a sign of being united to the body of Christ, as was commanded by Christ in the great commission. It is not that Baptism saves, it doesn't, nor is it required to be saved, but it is necessary so that the church can identify itself as being separate from the world.


If Christ was the only one who needed to be baptized (to fulfill Righteousness), then why did John the Baptist continue to baptize and Jesus disciples still baptized when Jesus was alive and still with them?

(Mat 3:13 NIV) Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
(Mat 3:14 NIV) But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
(Mat 3:15 NIV) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

(John 4:1 NIV) The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, (John 4:2 NIV) although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.


John the Baptist answers this question for you. Christ must Increase, while he (John) Must decrease. His ministry was not completely over, but he knew that he had little time left at this point. As for why he was still baptizing, clearly there was a transition period, between which many people did not know who jesus was, or had never heard of him, but they heard of John's message of repentance, and wanted to prepare their way. See for yourself:

Jn 3:25-36 (NKJV)

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:25-36 (NKJV)


As for why Jesus's disciples baptized before the GreaT Commission, that is one I'll admit that puzzles me, what puzzles me more is that it only says they did it, not that Christ necessarily commanded it either. I am still left with the thought that though the disciples followed Christ, they may not have truly had faith before the resurrection. It is something that has puzzled me recently that I will admit.

Getting back on topic, what is the purpose of water baptism? It is a sign of a multitude of things, it symbolizes the baptism of repentance that John practiced and in turn symbolizes the repentance within a new believer's heart already, it pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our own future death, burial, and resurrection (should the Lord Tary), and it also is a sign of affirmation, a sign that identifies the person being baptized as now being a believer in Christ.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 01:03 PM
Oh, I see baptism as a whole lot more. It is one of those things that recapture the essence of the OT sacraments into Christ. The eucharistic gathering of the feast being the other.

You say "only" Christ needed to fulfill all righteousness. But consider that if your faith works with God's grace in placing you in the body of Christ, then you being part of that, must also submit to such fulfillment of righteousness.

Christ is God's righteousness manifested to us. (1 Cor. 30). So if we are Christ's as we claim, then we will do the works of Christ. Just as Christ told the Jews if they claimed to be of Abraham, then they would do the works of Abraham. Such works done by faith that glorify God and His righteousness (meaning right acts/worship) are worshipful acts.

Because it was impossible for man as he was to fulfill all righteousness, to keep the law. If the law indeed did give life, then would there have been need of Christ? I'd argue no, Christ came because the law in and of itself could not save.


Ro 3:21-31 (NKJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 3:21-31 (NKJV)


My conclusion and belief is that we are justified by faith, when Christ said he was being baptized to "Fullfill all Righteousness" he means he was doing it to demonstrate his righteousness, which was the righteousness of God himself. Even the best and most perfect sacrifices in the OT didn't last forever, only the perfect righteousness of our Lord through Christ could fill that void.


Ro 5:6-21 (NKJV)

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

...

How can there be a reconciliation if Salvation was not already completed at the Cross? Paul then describes that Christ is the Second Adam:
...

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5:6-21 (NKJV)


We are made Righteous by Christ's deeds and death on the Cross, not by keeping the Law. The Law entered that the offense might abound, why? Grace abounded even more.


Ro 6:1-14 (NKJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (We are already dead to sin if we are In Christ) 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(what is this likeness of death? It means to be reckoned dead unto sin, we who believe are no longer bondservants to sin, but to righteousness, even the righteousness of Christ. Our flesh and sin died on the Cross with Christ, and Paul says that since we died with him, we also live with him. does Christ not Live? He sure does!)

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:1-14 (NKJV)

What is Paul's conclusion? He is telling us to wake up, we've already been freed from Sin, we don't have to live in bondage to it, or let it reign over our souls anymore, for we have the Righteousness of Christ. Sin has no more hold over us. Why? Because sin no longer has Dominion over those whoa re Christians, we are no longer under law but Grace!


Think about that, for the Christian, it is no longer about Sin, or our failings, it is about the Righteousness and walk of Christ!

AMEN and Hallelujah to that one!

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 01:04 PM
I already answered you question First Fruits, if you are in the body of Christ, then you are baptized into Christ, and how do you know this? You know this if you have the comforter, the Holy Spirit within you.

Baptism in water does no more save than anything else we can do outwardly. For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not of work, lest any should boast.

The question you should be asking, is what is the purpose of water Baptism. When I was young I used to believe that it had in effect replaced Circumcision, but clearly there were many passages that would refute that kind of thinking, as the jews were still doing just that. Baptism is simply the mechanism whereby a person of faith declares for all time his faith in Christ, and is a sign of being united to the body of Christ, as was commanded by Christ in the great commission. It is not that Baptism saves, it doesn't, nor is it required to be saved, but it is necessary so that the church can identify itself as being separate from the world.




John the Baptist answers this question for you. Christ must Increase, while he (John) Must decrease. His ministry was not completely over, but he knew that he had little time left at this point. As for why he was still baptizing, clearly there was a transition period, between which many people did not know who jesus was, or had never heard of him, but they heard of John's message of repentance, and wanted to prepare their way. See for yourself:

Jn 3:25-36 (NKJV)

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:25-36 (NKJV)


As for why Jesus's disciples baptized before the GreaT Commission, that is one I'll admit that puzzles me, what puzzles me more is that it only says they did it, not that Christ necessarily commanded it either. I am still left with the thought that though the disciples followed Christ, they may not have truly had faith before the resurrection. It is something that has puzzled me recently that I will admit.

Getting back on topic, what is the purpose of water baptism? It is a sign of a multitude of things, it symbolizes the baptism of repentance that John practiced and in turn symbolizes the repentance within a new believer's heart already, it pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our own future death, burial, and resurrection (should the Lord Tary), and it also is a sign of affirmation, a sign that identifies the person being baptized as now being a believer in Christ.

Thanks veretax,

Were Jesus and the disciples baptizing with water?

Jn 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Why did Jesus command baptism to continue after he had already completed the work of salvation?

Should we just accept Christs commandent?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 01:43 PM
Thanks veretax,

Were Jesus and the disciples baptizing with water?

Jn 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Why did Jesus command baptism to continue after he had already completed the work of salvation?

Should we just accept Christs commandent?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

It is implied from the passage where it is mentioned that Jesus did not baptize at all, but his disciples did.

As for why he commanded it? We may never know the entire full context and meaning behind it, but I believe he did so as a means of setting apart his new covenant from the old. I don't necessarily ascribe to covenant theology as I was taught, but I see baptism as the sign to his church, as a means to separate them from the jews somewhat.

And yes, for me it came down to finally accepting that I needed to be baptized as a believer in water before I submitted to it. (I had been sprinkled as an infant, but it took some time for the Lord through careful bible study to convince me that I had neglected this point, partly because I just had not been presented with the facts about baptism. So yes I believe all Christians should be baptized, what I object to is whether or not it has any true bearing on Salvation. I do not believe that it does, but I do know that after what was it 8 years I finally came to the belief that I needed to, and so I submitted to it, and I definitely felt a new out pouring of Grace after being obedient to that particular command. It very much to me was as peter wrote about settling my Conscience. As such, I encourage new believers to get the matter settled early, I sometimes wonder if I missed out on earlier blessings or closeness with God for having not settled the matter sooner.)

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 01:58 PM
It is implied from the passage where it is mentioned that Jesus did not baptize at all, but his disciples did.

As for why he commanded it? We may never know the entire full context and meaning behind it, but I believe he did so as a means of setting apart his new covenant from the old. I don't necessarily ascribe to covenant theology as I was taught, but I see baptism as the sign to his church, as a means to separate them from the jews somewhat.

And yes, for me it came down to finally accepting that I needed to be baptized as a believer in water before I submitted to it. (I had been sprinkled as an infant, but it took some time for the Lord through careful bible study to convince me that I had neglected this point, partly because I just had not been presented with the facts about baptism. So yes I believe all Christians should be baptized, what I object to is whether or not it has any true bearing on Salvation. I do not believe that it does, but I do know that after what was it 8 years I finally came to the belief that I needed to, and so I submitted to it, and I definitely felt a new out pouring of Grace after being obedient to that particular command. It very much to me was as peter wrote about settling my Conscience. As such, I encourage new believers to get the matter settled early, I sometimes wonder if I missed out on earlier blessings or closeness with God for having not settled the matter sooner.)

Thanks for being so open veretax, it is appreciated.

With regards to the following scripture was paul reffering to baptism?

Acts 26:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Note they are to repent and turn to God and to do works meet for repentance. Is it the same as what John was speaking of.

Acts 19:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks for being so open veretax, it is appreciated.

With regards to the following scripture was paul reffering to baptism?

Acts 26:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Note they are to repent and turn to God and to do works meet for repentance. Is it the same as what John was speaking of.

Acts 19:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Acts 26:20 is simpler than that, he was saying that all should repent, and then bear fruit which proves the change of heart within. This really does not have to be about baptism though.

As for acts 19:4, I have always interpreted this in the following manner. Many were baptized in John's baptism of repentance, but they had not put their faith in christ. Again proving that baptism never of itself saved, the faith in Christ is what saves, in this case they did not know Christ was the messiah, but when Paul told them, they were baptized again in Jesus name? Why? My inclination here is that for Jews especially it was very important that they make it known that they believed in the entire Godhead. they beleived in God, and possibly his spirit or his coming messiah, but they had for the most part rejected Christ as the Messiah. Baptism is at the core an act of Obedience that a beleiver should submit to after they've initially placed their faith in Christ.

For those of Apollos at Ephesus, they were indeed open and were baptized in the name of Christ. It is kind of ironic that the gentiles in many cases seem to have an easier time believing in Jesus then the Jews. For them it was harder thing, and in some ways I can understand this.

Having been raised Presbyterian, sprinkling of infants was their Tradition. In fact there was a time which I once believed that baptizing infants and believers baptism were both acceptable. I no longer hold to this belief, but at the time I began to study this and feel God calling me to settle in my mind what the truth was, it was perhaps harder for someone like me who had been in that tradition for eight years to finally turn from that which was wrong to what Scripture plainly teaches. It along with a few other realizations from careful study of the bible lead me not only to submit to this, but to break ties with the denomination I had grown up in, and no doubt upsetting both of my parents as well. However, once I knew the truth, i could no longer celebrate that which I now hold as a contradiction to scripture.

So while you see me arguing in this thread, my only argument is that baptism does not save. It is certainly a command of Christ, and while we are no longer held to account for Sin as we were before our salvation, walking rightly is more about love for Christ then concern for judgement for Christians. This is what I believe.

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 02:42 PM
Acts 26:20 is simpler than that, he was saying that all should repent, and then bear fruit which proves the change of heart within. This really does not have to be about baptism though.

As for acts 19:4, I have always interpreted this in the following manner. Many were baptized in John's baptism of repentance, but they had not put their faith in christ. Again proving that baptism never of itself saved, the faith in Christ is what saves, in this case they did not know Christ was the messiah, but when Paul told them, they were baptized again in Jesus name? Why? My inclination here is that for Jews especially it was very important that they make it known that they believed in the entire Godhead. they beleived in God, and possibly his spirit or his coming messiah, but they had for the most part rejected Christ as the Messiah. Baptism is at the core an act of Obedience that a beleiver should submit to after they've initially placed their faith in Christ.

For those of Apollos at Ephesus, they were indeed open and were baptized in the name of Christ. It is kind of ironic that the gentiles in many cases seem to have an easier time believing in Jesus then the Jews. For them it was harder thing, and in some ways I can understand this.

Having been raised Presbyterian, sprinkling of infants was their Tradition. In fact there was a time which I once believed that baptizing infants and believers baptism were both acceptable. I no longer hold to this belief, but at the time I began to study this and feel God calling me to settle in my mind what the truth was, it was perhaps harder for someone like me who had been in that tradition for eight years to finally turn from that which was wrong to what Scripture plainly teaches. It along with a few other realizations from careful study of the bible lead me not only to submit to this, but to break ties with the denomination I had grown up in, and no doubt upsetting both of my parents as well. However, once I knew the truth, i could no longer celebrate that which I now hold as a contradiction to scripture.

So while you see me arguing in this thread, my only argument is that baptism does not save. It is certainly a command of Christ, and while we are no longer held to account for Sin as we were before our salvation, walking rightly is more about love for Christ then concern for judgement for Christians. This is what I believe.

Thank you veretax,

I believe that when we believe in Christ by faith that we are saved according to what is written, so when Christ says that he that believeth shall be saved and he that believeth not shall be damned.

Baptism appears to set us apart from unbelievers.

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The key word here is to believe.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 02:53 PM
It is interesting I just read Psalm 1-10 today and this one passage jumped out at me. It kind of applies to what you said there I think.


Ps 4:2-3 (NKJV)

2 How long, O you sons of men,

Will you turn my glory to shame?

How long will you love worthlessness

And seek falsehood? Selah

3 But know that the Lord has set apart for Himself him who is godly;

The Lord will hear when I call to Him.

Psalm 4:2-3 (NKJV)


Sometimes I think we forget that God sets the righteous apart from the Wicked, that there is a difference. Was interesting to be sure.

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 03:02 PM
It is interesting I just read Psalm 1-10 today and this one passage jumped out at me. It kind of applies to what you said there I think.


Ps 4:2-3 (NKJV)

2 How long, O you sons of men,

Will you turn my glory to shame?

How long will you love worthlessness

And seek falsehood? Selah

3 But know that the Lord has set apart for Himself him who is godly;

The Lord will hear when I call to Him.

Psalm 4:2-3 (NKJV)


Sometimes I think we forget that God sets the righteous apart from the Wicked, that there is a difference. Was interesting to be sure.

I suppose that would apply to why Jesus gave the commandment.

Thanks and God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 12th 2009, 03:31 PM
Seems we are all pretty much on the same page about baptism. :)

Veretax, I could not say one way or another when exactly the point of salvation begins. For all I know it could be as soon as we are formed in the womb. Since scripture seems to acknowledge the possiblity with John leaping in his mothers womb. IOW I am not one who limits God's grace to any specific point within time.

I have raised my children and grandchildren with the understanding that baptism and caring for the things of Christ and His church is more important than anything else in this world. By faith I believe this is true. I know God will do His part, while I do the best I can for Him.

In peace,
Eve

Firstfruits
May 12th 2009, 05:26 PM
Seems we are all pretty much on the same page about baptism. :)

Veretax, I could not say one way or another when exactly the point of salvation begins. For all I know it could be as soon as we are formed in the womb. Since scripture seems to acknowledge the possiblity with John leaping in his mothers womb. IOW I am not one who limits God's grace to any specific point within time.

I have raised my children and grandchildren with the understanding that baptism and caring for the things of Christ and His church is more important than anything else in this world. By faith I believe this is true. I know God will do His part, while I do the best I can for Him.

In peace,
Eve

Let us be thankful that through the word we have come to an agreement regarding Christs commandment of baptism.

God bless you, and all that have taken part on this discussion.

Firstfruits

chad
May 12th 2009, 08:04 PM
Hi Vertex,

The only time it meantion Jesus fullfilling all rigetousness in the New Testament is Mathew 3:15. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention Jesus fulfilling all rigteousness, except Mt 3:15.

Mt 3:15 even states and uses the words, which Jesus said.

(Mat 3:15 NIV) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

And what is this event linked to. Water Baptism. John the Baptist - Baptism in water.

John the Baptist knew he wasn;t the Messiah. He knew his calling, that was to prepare the way for Christ. He did what he was called to do and part of that was Baptize people with water.

Baptism with water did not stop after John the Baptist died. Jesus disciples baptized. It did not stop after Jesus died and rose again, Philip and peter baptised with water after pentecost.




John the Baptist answers this question for you. Christ must Increase, while he (John) Must decrease. His ministry was not completely over, but he knew that he had little time left at this point. As for why he was still baptizing, clearly there was a transition period, between which many people did not know who jesus was, or had never heard of him, but they heard of John's message of repentance, and wanted to prepare their way. See for yourself:

Jn 3:25-36 (NKJV)

25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”

27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:25-36 (NKJV)


As for why Jesus's disciples baptized before the GreaT Commission, that is one I'll admit that puzzles me, what puzzles me more is that it only says they did it, not that Christ necessarily commanded it either. I am still left with the thought that though the disciples followed Christ, they may not have truly had faith before the resurrection. It is something that has puzzled me recently that I will admit.

Getting back on topic, what is the purpose of water baptism? It is a sign of a multitude of things, it symbolizes the baptism of repentance that John practiced and in turn symbolizes the repentance within a new believer's heart already, it pictures the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and our own future death, burial, and resurrection (should the Lord Tary), and it also is a sign of affirmation, a sign that identifies the person being baptized as now being a believer in Christ.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 08:30 PM
Chad,

First off I'm not suggesting water baptism should stop. It has its place, but I disagree with you as you'll se ein a moment.



Hi Vertex,

The only time it meantion Jesus fullfilling all rigetousness in the New Testament is Mathew 3:15. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention Jesus fulfilling all rigteousness, except Mt 3:15.

Mt 3:15 even states and uses the words, which Jesus said.

(Mat 3:15 NIV) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

And what is this event linked to. Water Baptism. John the Baptist - Baptism in water.

John the Baptist knew he wasn;t the Messiah. He knew his calling, that was to prepare the way for Christ. He did what he was called to do and part of that was Baptize people with water.

Baptism with water did not stop after John the Baptist died. Jesus disciples baptized. It did not stop after Jesus died and rose again, Philip and peter baptised with water after pentecost.


Oh really? On one hand I agree that exact wording I don't think is found elsewhere, but there are plenty of Verses that talk about Christ demonstrating his Righteousness, the Righteousness of God.


Ro 3:21-28 (NKJV)


21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:21-28 (NKJV)

That's just one example.

I'm not against water baptism, I'm not sure why people think I am. I"m just against telling people that its saves them when that is just not scriptural.

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 08:40 PM
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:21-28 (NKJV)

That's just one example.

I'm not against water baptism, I'm not sure why people think I am. I"m just against telling people that its saves them when that is just not scriptural.
I'm not against water baptism, either. I agree, it does not save a person to be water baptized, nor is a person damned if they do not get baptized in water.

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a 'work', and we know that we are not saved, nor kept by 'works':

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

kay-gee
May 12th 2009, 10:37 PM
I'm not against water baptism, either. I agree, it does not save a person to be water baptized, nor is a person damned if they do not get baptized in water.

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a 'work', and we know that we are not saved, nor kept by 'works':

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

Baptism is not a work. It is an act of obedience to the truth (1Peter 1:22)

all the best...

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 11:46 PM
I'm not against water baptism, either. I agree, it does not save a person to be water baptized, nor is a person damned if they do not get baptized in water.

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then it is a 'work', and we know that we are not saved, nor kept by 'works':

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)


Baptism is not a work. It is an act of obedience to the truth (1Peter 1:22)

all the best...
Hmmm... :hmm:

What does 1 Peter 1 actually say? Let us see:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:18-23)

We are not redeemed by corruptible things, but with the blood of Christ, not water.

We believe in God by Jesus Christ, and have faith and hope in God, not water.

We have purified our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit by loving our brethren, not by water.

And we are born again by the word of God, not water.

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:8-12)

chad
May 13th 2009, 12:49 AM
Hi Vertex,

Ok here are my thoughts on why the disciples baptized, before the great commission and why Jesus did not.

Firstly, John the Baptist said his baptism was with water for repentance, but Jesus baptism will be with the Holy Spirit and with Fire (Mark 1:8, Mt 3:11, Lk 3:16).

So If Jesus did baptise with water, it would nulify what John the Baptism said. Jesus could not baptize with water (Becuase his baptism was of the Holy Spirit and Fire), so his disciples baptized with water instead (John 4:1-2). . The Disciples could not have baptized with the Holy Spirit, unless they had been baptized themselves with the Holy Spirit.

We know that when we are baptized we are associating with Christ Jesus Death and Ressurection (Romans 6:3-5). When Jesus was on earth with his disciples, he had not yet died. The time for sending of the Holy Spirit and Baptizing in the Holy Spirit had not come yet. This happened at Pentecost, after Jesus death and ressurection (Acts 2:1-4).

If Jesus did in fact baptize with water or the Holy Spirit before his death and ressurection, surely Jesus would have baptized his disciples first. But if the Disciples had been baptized with the Holy Spirit, why would they need to be baptized again at Pentecost?


It was only after Jesus had been ressurected he gave the great commission - Go ye therefore and make disciples of all men, baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy ghost (Mt 28:19). And he instructed his disciples to wait for the Gift of The Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-5).

It is Jesus who sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26, John 16:7) and as seen in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit baptized the disciples at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-5).

In this way Jesus fulfilled the words of John the Baptist, that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. This involves the trinity (Jesus said he would sent the Holy Sprit, by the father, and the Holy Spirit baptized them at Pentecost).

Possibly the reason why the disciples baptized with water before Jesus death was that they had not been commissioned to baptize in the name of the father, son and of the Holy Spirit. This commission was only given after Jesus had been ressurected. (Mt 28:18-19).




As for why Jesus's disciples baptized before the GreaT Commission, that is one I'll admit that puzzles me, what puzzles me more is that it only says they did it, not that Christ necessarily commanded it either. I am still left with the thought that though the disciples followed Christ, they may not have truly had faith before the resurrection. It is something that has puzzled me recently that I will admit.

kay-gee
May 13th 2009, 04:20 AM
Hmmm... :hmm:

What does 1 Peter 1 actually say? Let us see:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:18-23)

We are not redeemed by corruptible things, but with the blood of Christ, not water.

We believe in God by Jesus Christ, and have faith and hope in God, not water.

We have purified our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit by loving our brethren, not by water.

And we are born again by the word of God, not water.

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:8-12)


So...in other words...remain dis-obedient and get by anyhow. OK...what-ever!

all the best...

fuzzi
May 13th 2009, 08:40 PM
So...in other words...remain dis-obedient and get by anyhow. OK...what-ever!

all the best...
No Scripture? :confused

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2)

kay-gee
May 13th 2009, 11:08 PM
No Scripture? :confused

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2)

No sense. It rolls off you like water off a ducks back anyway.

One last shot....Acts 2:38 REMISSION OF SINS

Mark 16:16 Believe and baptize= SAVED

No other scripture required.

Failure to comply indicates one of two things 1) a learning disability

2) a personal decision that obedience is not required and ones made up plan of salvation is superior to GODs

all the best...

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 01:58 AM
Hmmm... :hmm:

What does 1 Peter 1 actually say? Let us see:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:18-23)

We are not redeemed by corruptible things, but with the blood of Christ, not water.

We believe in God by Jesus Christ, and have faith and hope in God, not water.

We have purified our souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit by loving our brethren, not by water.

And we are born again by the word of God, not water.

"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:8-12)

So...in other words...remain dis-obedient and get by anyhow. OK...what-ever!

all the best...

No Scripture? :confused

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2)

No sense. It rolls off you like water off a ducks back anyway.

One last shot....Acts 2:38 REMISSION OF SINS

Mark 16:16 Believe and baptize= SAVED

No other scripture required.

Failure to comply indicates one of two things 1) a learning disability

2) a personal decision that obedience is not required and ones made up plan of salvation is superior to GODs

all the best...
Yep, no Scripture rebuttal to what I posted. :rolleyes:

You're stuck on two verses, which several people here have refuted, and you do not address our replies with Scripture. So be it.

Have a nice day. :)

kay-gee
May 14th 2009, 02:27 AM
Now I've heard everything. Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 have been refuted!

So that is what it's all about for the anti-water people. Refuting Scripture!

I suspected it all along!

all the best...

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:42 AM
Now I've heard everything. Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 have been refuted!

So that is what it's all about for the anti-water people. Refuting Scripture!

I suspected it all along!

all the best...
The way you interpret Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16, as if they supported your view of water baptism being necessary for salvation, has been refuted.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:9)

Good night.

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 03:09 AM
Chad,

First off I'm not suggesting water baptism should stop. It has its place, but I disagree with you as you'll se ein a moment.





Oh really? On one hand I agree that exact wording I don't think is found elsewhere, but there are plenty of Verses that talk about Christ demonstrating his Righteousness, the Righteousness of God.


Ro 3:21-28 (NKJV)


21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:21-28 (NKJV)

That's just one example.

I'm not against water baptism, I'm not sure why people think I am. I"m just against telling people that its saves them when that is just not scriptural.

What's not Scriptural about this?


John 3:5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:20-21 ( KJV )
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Titus 3:3-5 ( KJV )
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Literally the bath of regeneration.


Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV )
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here is Young's literal translation,

Romans 6:4-5 ( YLT )
we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

Literally the verse says, if we have been planted with Him, we shall be in the resurrection. Paul says that this planting was baptism. He says if we have been planted in the "likeness" of his death. The word likeness means image or a representation. An image or representation is something seen that represents something unseen. Spiritual baptism cannot be seen, water baptism can. This verse clearly ties water baptism to the resurrection.

chad
May 14th 2009, 11:56 AM
I don't really understand how people can be anti-water when it comes to Baptism.

The word Baptized comes from the Greek Word Baptizo G907. to make whelmed (i.e fully wet); used only (in the N.T) of ceremonial ablution espec. Of the ordanance of baptism.

The word Baptizo is used in the following verses: (Mark 16:16), (Acts 2:38,8:12-13,16,36,38,9:18, 10:47-48,16:15), Romans (6:3-4) + more



Now I've heard everything. Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 have been refuted!

So that is what it's all about for the anti-water people. Refuting Scripture!

I suspected it all along!

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 14th 2009, 12:15 PM
What's not Scriptural about this?


John 3:5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 Peter 3:20-21 ( KJV )
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Titus 3:3-5 ( KJV )
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Literally the bath of regeneration.


Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV )
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here is Young's literal translation,

Romans 6:4-5 ( YLT )
we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

Literally the verse says, if we have been planted with Him, we shall be in the resurrection. Paul says that this planting was baptism. He says if we have been planted in the "likeness" of his death. The word likeness means image or a representation. An image or representation is something seen that represents something unseen. Spiritual baptism cannot be seen, water baptism can. This verse clearly ties water baptism to the resurrection.

Originaly for kay-gee.

May I ask how you were saved? Do you believe that the following is how you are saved?

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Are these scriptures false?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 14th 2009, 12:17 PM
May I ask how you were saved? Do you believe that the following is how you are saved?

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Are these scriptures false?

Firstfruits

Teke
May 14th 2009, 12:38 PM
I'm not against water baptism, I'm not sure why people think I am. I"m just against telling people that its saves them when that is just not scriptural.

I think it's because you only relate baptism to salvation Veretax. I believe I already mentioned that I believe God's grace is not limited and everyone is working out their salvation. But that also means they may very well be working out a salvation that lands them in hell.

Why do I say this. Because they have not submitted to Christ. They have not been adopted thereby being part of His Body. They have not prepared to meet the Bridegroom, have no robe of righteousness without Him.

This is just a few things you haven't considered it seems. There are those who with their mouths confess Jesus and yet do not follow Him in the least, which is baptism. They believe the law will help them work out their salvation. And scripture doesn't say such will become righteous apart from Him.

One must be adopted to become a son of God. Then the Son of God will give of His Spirit to them. IOW it's a gift for becoming a son of God by adoption.

You can't just believe in your mind and confess with your tongue. Demons can do as much. There must also be the acquiring of love for Him through your works. ie. things needful for the body James 2:16 cont.

Veretax
May 14th 2009, 01:21 PM
What's not Scriptural about this?


John 3:5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


We've been over that passage, and you need to look at the entire context. NIchodemus came to Christ and acknowledged that he was a teacher from God. Jesus cut right to the heart of the matter and told Nichodemus (A Pharisee, that he must be born again). Nichodemus naturally marvels at this, and says, can a man be born when he is old, or enter his mother's womb a second time? See Christ was talking about Spiritual Birth, and replied with that verse in 3:5-7

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Verse 5 and 6 are essentially parallel thoughts. a birth of water and the spirit are compared to the birth of flesh, and the birth of Spirit. Are we somehow born through Water Baptism? I don't believe scripture teaches that. Water instead could mean one of two things.

1. a Physical thing like the water as products of birth from a mother.
2. The word's of the Lord.

Now the first one is really easy to get from this section without digging too much into it. Everyone who is an adult likely has an understanding of how a child is born, and Christ is telling Nichodemus the difference between the two births. One is physical the other spiritual. The Second idea, is one that could be inferred from later in John when Jesus is talking to the woman at the well, when he Tells her she should ask for the water he has that is living water. That Living water is literally the word of God, so i can see someone inferring that from here, but baptism? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how you get that from the passage except to do so by trying to cram a prior belief onto a passage (exegesis).

In versus 7-8 he tells Nichodemus not to marvel that he tells him he must be born anew, and he uses the analogy of the wind to describe how the Spirit moves, that you can sense it, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes, and that is what it means to be Born of the Spirit in essence. Nichodemus Marvels, and Jesus kind of mocks him you could say by saying are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know these things? here is the entire passage in context.



Jn 3:1-21 (NKJV)


3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)




1 Peter 3:20-21 ( KJV )
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


I think it's helpful again in this passage to see what peter leads into this passage with. He is talking about suffering for Christ's name. If you pay clsoe attention to verse 19 you find out the who are those spirits in prison, (Those who had already died and were in the pit) those are who was disobedient, Now there are multiple possible interpretations here on who he could be talking to.



Fallen Angels
Humans before the flood
Humans dead and in the pit while Christ was in the Grave.

He is also using the analogy of those in the days of Noah, who were peached to for many yaers before the flood came, while the Ark was being built.


1 Pe 3:13-4:6 (NKJV)

13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:13-4:6 (NKJV)


I'll draw your attention back to verse 21 now.

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Peter is making a distinction between an outward cleansing or baptism, with that which happens internally. The Conscience is internal, inside of us, and that is what he is saying saves us, the inward baptism through the resurrection of Christ. Continuing into Chapter 4 He reminds us how Christ suffered for us in the flesh, and has now ceased from sin, Christ no longer lives the rest of the time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. He then describes our behavior, that we no longer walk as in our past lifetimes doing the will of the gentiles in all manner of sin, and they think it strange that we do not run with them. I can attest to this, when I was in college my wicked floormates thought it strange that I wasn't interested in drinking, smoking, sleeping around, or other such profane things, and it bothered them greatly, and I know many of them quietly cursed or ridiculed me when i was not around, but I tell you what. The Lord used me as an example to them. Perhaps some day one or more of them will recall and come to Christ because of how I walked then.

So while baptism is mentioned here, I believe he is talking about the inward baptism that happens when we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit at the moment of Salvation.




Titus 3:3-5 ( KJV )
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Literally the bath of regeneration.



The full context is perhaps not necessary to expound upon this passage, but what does it mean to have a washing of regeneration? In my belief, man is a tripartite being having an immortal Soul (the essence of who we are), Flesh (the physical parts), and Spirit (the part that is supposed to commune with God). When Adam sin, literally his Spirit Died then, though his flesh took time to die. So what then is Regeneration? I believe it is talking about the washing, cleasning of our Spirit, and its Regeneration and restoration to how it would have been if man had never sinned.

In essence again, this is talking about the inward cleansing, the inward baptism, and not only are we cleansed, and changed within, but we are renewed, reborn by the Holy Spirit within us. So that now we are reconciled to God and can fellowship with him.





Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV )
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here is Young's literal translation,

Romans 6:4-5 ( YLT )
we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

Literally the verse says, if we have been planted with Him, we shall be in the resurrection. Paul says that this planting was baptism. He says if we have been planted in the "likeness" of his death. The word likeness means image or a representation. An image or representation is something seen that represents something unseen. Spiritual baptism cannot be seen, water baptism can. This verse clearly ties water baptism to the resurrection.

Yes but again what does it mean to be planted with Him. You argue that it is about Water, I believe the bible is talking about a spiritual thing, being planted in the Spirit. Cleansed by the Holy Spirit, Renewed, Regenerated, and reborn throught he Spirit, that is what it means to be planted together in his likeness, and we then look forward to the day when our flesh will also be transformed, to put off the corruption and put on incorruption.

So I'll point you again to the full context of this passage.

Ro 6:1-11 (NKJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:1-11 (NKJV)

What does Paul mean when he says many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. Were we Crucified? ... Paul explains this in the next Paragraph. but first tells us if we are buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father so shall we.

So what does Paul mean to be baptized into His death? He tells us in verse 5. That if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with, and that we are no longer slaves to sin.

But the paragraph doesn't stop there. He has died has been freed from sin, so if we died with Christ (our old man crucified on the Cross), we beleieve that we shall live with him, knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead dies no more, death no longer has dominion over him, and that this death he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Now going back to this baptism, that paul is talking about. Is it water? Baptism Baptizo literally means to be immersed. Naturally many from churches that baptize in water by immersion see this as what he is saying, but I think there is a deeper spiritual meaning here. To be baptized is to be immersed in the Spirit! it literally means to be united with Christ, and when we are united, our old man is Crucified on that old rugged Cross so that we are now free from sin. And what does paul say in the end here? Reckon ourselves as dead to sin. What does reckon mean? it means to consider ourselves as dead for sin, because as Christ lives, so shall we.

Amen for that!

So in conclusion, in this one passage in Romans I can see how water baptism can be seen as a symbol of Christ's burial and resurrection, but I believe the word also pictures what happens when we are put into the body of Christ and become united with him in Spirit. That is the ultimate goal, to be united with Christ spiritually in my book. Does that preclude water baptism? I'm inclined to say no, because we do not control the Holy Spirit, although it certainly does lead and guide us. I believe the Great Commission is proof enough of the need to be baptized in water, but the true baptism, the one that puts us into the body of Christ is a Spiritual baptism.

Veretax
May 14th 2009, 01:30 PM
I think it's because you only relate baptism to salvation Veretax. I believe I already mentioned that I believe God's grace is not limited and everyone is working out their salvation. But that also means they may very well be working out a salvation that lands them in hell.

Why do I say this. Because they have not submitted to Christ. They have not been adopted thereby being part of His Body. They have not prepared to meet the Bridegroom, have no robe of righteousness without Him.

This is just a few things you haven't considered it seems. There are those who with their mouths confess Jesus and yet do not follow Him in the least, which is baptism. They believe the law will help them work out their salvation. And scripture doesn't say such will become righteous apart from Him.

One must be adopted to become a son of God. Then the Son of God will give of His Spirit to them. IOW it's a gift for becoming a son of God by adoption.

You can't just believe in your mind and confess with your tongue. Demons can do as much. There must also be the acquiring of love for Him through your works. ie. things needful for the body James 2:16 cont.


Teke,

I appreciate the tenderness with how you approach this subject, and it may surprise you that I agree at least in part. When I put my trust in Christ, it wasn't about just being saved from sin so I can go on my merry way. I was transformed that day, and immediately I found myself no longer desiring the sinful things I once did.

I believe in being a fruit inspector. I think with the Holy Spirit with us we can get a pretty good idea whether a person is or is not saved. There are some who are crafty at hiding it, but they can't do it forever. I knew some girls in High School who I thought, by their actions were saved, but when I became familiar with them in a College environment, their attitude and reactions changed dramatically. In fact, this was a rather hard lesson the Lord taught me, that many people I thought were probably saved in High School, may not have known the same Savior that I did, and it broke my heart, made it more tender, and opened my eyes to be more aware of what was going on around me. My former pastor called it spiritual perception, the ability and awareness to realize when the Spirit is trying to tell you something isn't right or someone is not being genuine.

Anyhow, right there is an example of just what you say. A person who I believed, claimed to be a Christian, even knew some scripture. A person I at the time admired and respected, (in a couple of cases even saw as potential mates, so perhaps that blinded me to the reality of the flaws.) Yet when they got out from under the roof of discipline, they began to shed the facade they had put on at High School.

I've always been rather introspective, and careful to not put on airs or fronts, but to be consistently honest and straight forward. The hard part during those days was learning that not everyone else cared to be so genuine.

And I agree, speaking a confession or prayer out loud is insufficient to be truly saved. True confession is in effect repentance from the former way, a turning from the old, and replacing it with Christ. If there is no change within, then that person was never saved, they may know the bible even from an academic perspective, but unless they have faith of the heart, then they, in my belief, do not have Christ at all. The sad part is so many around us wear Christian Clothes, and yet they do not really walk in Christ's shoes or paths.

So no I agree, you must show true fruit, and while many may try to fake it, God knows the heart, and noone can put on a facade forever.

John146
May 14th 2009, 02:57 PM
What's not Scriptural about this?


John 3:5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When baptism is spoken of in scripture it is always referred to as...wait for it...baptism. Being born of water is not baptism. If Jesus was referring to baptism there he would have used the word baptism. Jesus clarifies what He said in John 3:5 in the very next verse.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. He didn't say that which is born of water and of the Spirit is spirit. Why? Because to be born again is to be born of the Spirit, not of water and the Spirit. Being born again is entirely spiritual and there is nothing physical about it at all.

Also, Jesus implied that what He was telling Nicodemus applied right then and there and not just to the future. He expressed surprise that Nicodemus, a great OT Jewish teacher, did not even know what He was talking about. So, if John 3:5 applies today then so does the way the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet were saved, which was by faith in Christ. Jesus implied that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again. No one at all. Were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob baptized in water? No. Does that mean they cannot enter the kingdom of God until they are? Of course not. We are saved the same way they were: by faith.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


1 Peter 3:20-21 ( KJV )
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Noah and his family were kept safe through the water, not saved by the water. People were killed by the water, not saved by it. The like figure that now saves us is "the answer of a good conscience toward God". When we repent and believe we are then baptized with the Holy Spirit. Noah and his family believed and were saved by being on the ark. The like figure to that is believing in Christ and then being kept safe from spiritual death by the baptism and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

You're not understanding what "like figure" means. It is the like spiritual figure to the physical event. The like figure is spiritual while the event it is compared to was physical. The ark was the physical thing that saved Noah and his family from physical death in the flood waters. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual like figure or antitype who saves us from spiritual death.


Titus 3:3-5 ( KJV )
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Literally the bath of regeneration.Again, this is not speaking of water baptism at all. The washing of regeneration is spiritual just like the renewing of the Holy Spirit is spiritual. It is a washing and renewing that is performed on the inside with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the living water (John 7:37-39) that purifies us on the inside and makes us new creations in Christ.

It is not water baptism that saves us and places us in the body of Christ. I notice that you never bring up 1 Corinthians 12:13. Why is that?

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5), which is clearly differentiated from water baptism. No water is necessary for the baptism that He performs within us, which saves us and places us in His body, the church.


Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV )
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Here is Young's literal translation,

Romans 6:4-5 ( YLT )
we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

Literally the verse says, if we have been planted with Him, we shall be in the resurrection. Paul says that this planting was baptism. He says if we have been planted in the "likeness" of his death. The word likeness means image or a representation. An image or representation is something seen that represents something unseen. Spiritual baptism cannot be seen, water baptism can. This verse clearly ties water baptism to the resurrection.Once again I believe you are missing the spiritual application of a passage. What does the likeness of His resurrection represent? Our future physical resurrection? No. The context shows that it relates to our being raised to newness of spiritual life. Are we physically raised to new spiritual life? No, there is nothing physical about it. Likewise, there is nothing physical about being planted in the likeness of His death. This is all spiritual. It's all about what happens on the inside of us when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and born of the Spirit unto newness of spiritual life.

You are missing the meaning of terms such as "like figure" and "likeness". Those terms are used to contrast and compare spiritual events to physical events and not to compare physical with physical.

Firstfruits
May 14th 2009, 03:16 PM
1 Pet 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jn 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jn 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Jn 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Jn 17:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

embankmentlb
May 14th 2009, 03:16 PM
Romans 10

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Butch5
May 15th 2009, 12:09 AM
Originaly for kay-gee.

May I ask how you were saved? Do you believe that the following is how you are saved?

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 8:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Are these scriptures false?

Firstfruits

No they are not false, however, none of them say that belief alone saves. Therein lies the problem, nowhere does Scripture say we are saved by faith alone. That was the cry of the reformers, not Scripture. As a matter of fact, the one place Scripture speaks of faith alone, it says we are "not" saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 ( KJV )
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Also, he who believes what, is not condemned? What is it that we are to believe, in order to be saved?Consider Paul's words,

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV )
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

What was the preaching of Jesus Christ?


Mark 16:16 ( KJV )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Butch5
May 15th 2009, 12:48 AM
We've been over that passage, and you need to look at the entire context. NIchodemus came to Christ and acknowledged that he was a teacher from God. Jesus cut right to the heart of the matter and told Nichodemus (A Pharisee, that he must be born again). Nichodemus naturally marvels at this, and says, can a man be born when he is old, or enter his mother's womb a second time? See Christ was talking about Spiritual Birth, and replied with that verse in 3:5-7

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Verse 5 and 6 are essentially parallel thoughts. a birth of water and the spirit are compared to the birth of flesh, and the birth of Spirit. Are we somehow born through Water Baptism? I don't believe scripture teaches that. Water instead could mean one of two things.

1. a Physical thing like the water as products of birth from a mother.
2. The word's of the Lord.

Now the first one is really easy to get from this section without digging too much into it. Everyone who is an adult likely has an understanding of how a child is born, and Christ is telling Nichodemus the difference between the two births. One is physical the other spiritual. The Second idea, is one that could be inferred from later in John when Jesus is talking to the woman at the well, when he Tells her she should ask for the water he has that is living water. That Living water is literally the word of God, so i can see someone inferring that from here, but baptism? I'm sorry, but I just don't see how you get that from the passage except to do so by trying to cram a prior belief onto a passage (exegesis).

In versus 7-8 he tells Nichodemus not to marvel that he tells him he must be born anew, and he uses the analogy of the wind to describe how the Spirit moves, that you can sense it, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it goes, and that is what it means to be Born of the Spirit in essence. Nichodemus Marvels, and Jesus kind of mocks him you could say by saying are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know these things? here is the entire passage in context.



Jn 3:1-21 (NKJV)


3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 3:1-21 (NKJV)




I think it's helpful again in this passage to see what peter leads into this passage with. He is talking about suffering for Christ's name. If you pay clsoe attention to verse 19 you find out the who are those spirits in prison, (Those who had already died and were in the pit) those are who was disobedient, Now there are multiple possible interpretations here on who he could be talking to.



Fallen Angels
Humans before the flood
Humans dead and in the pit while Christ was in the Grave.
He is also using the analogy of those in the days of Noah, who were peached to for many yaers before the flood came, while the Ark was being built.


1 Pe 3:13-4:6 (NKJV)

13 And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. 17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 3:13-4:6 (NKJV)


I'll draw your attention back to verse 21 now.

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Peter is making a distinction between an outward cleansing or baptism, with that which happens internally. The Conscience is internal, inside of us, and that is what he is saying saves us, the inward baptism through the resurrection of Christ. Continuing into Chapter 4 He reminds us how Christ suffered for us in the flesh, and has now ceased from sin, Christ no longer lives the rest of the time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. He then describes our behavior, that we no longer walk as in our past lifetimes doing the will of the gentiles in all manner of sin, and they think it strange that we do not run with them. I can attest to this, when I was in college my wicked floormates thought it strange that I wasn't interested in drinking, smoking, sleeping around, or other such profane things, and it bothered them greatly, and I know many of them quietly cursed or ridiculed me when i was not around, but I tell you what. The Lord used me as an example to them. Perhaps some day one or more of them will recall and come to Christ because of how I walked then.

So while baptism is mentioned here, I believe he is talking about the inward baptism that happens when we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit at the moment of Salvation.





The full context is perhaps not necessary to expound upon this passage, but what does it mean to have a washing of regeneration? In my belief, man is a tripartite being having an immortal Soul (the essence of who we are), Flesh (the physical parts), and Spirit (the part that is supposed to commune with God). When Adam sin, literally his Spirit Died then, though his flesh took time to die. So what then is Regeneration? I believe it is talking about the washing, cleasning of our Spirit, and its Regeneration and restoration to how it would have been if man had never sinned.

In essence again, this is talking about the inward cleansing, the inward baptism, and not only are we cleansed, and changed within, but we are renewed, reborn by the Holy Spirit within us. So that now we are reconciled to God and can fellowship with him.





Yes but again what does it mean to be planted with Him. You argue that it is about Water, I believe the bible is talking about a spiritual thing, being planted in the Spirit. Cleansed by the Holy Spirit, Renewed, Regenerated, and reborn throught he Spirit, that is what it means to be planted together in his likeness, and we then look forward to the day when our flesh will also be transformed, to put off the corruption and put on incorruption.

So I'll point you again to the full context of this passage.

Ro 6:1-11 (NKJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:1-11 (NKJV)

What does Paul mean when he says many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death. Were we Crucified? ... Paul explains this in the next Paragraph. but first tells us if we are buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father so shall we.

So what does Paul mean to be baptized into His death? He tells us in verse 5. That if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with, and that we are no longer slaves to sin.

But the paragraph doesn't stop there. He has died has been freed from sin, so if we died with Christ (our old man crucified on the Cross), we beleieve that we shall live with him, knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead dies no more, death no longer has dominion over him, and that this death he died to sin once for all, but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Now going back to this baptism, that paul is talking about. Is it water? Baptism Baptizo literally means to be immersed. Naturally many from churches that baptize in water by immersion see this as what he is saying, but I think there is a deeper spiritual meaning here. To be baptized is to be immersed in the Spirit! it literally means to be united with Christ, and when we are united, our old man is Crucified on that old rugged Cross so that we are now free from sin. And what does paul say in the end here? Reckon ourselves as dead to sin. What does reckon mean? it means to consider ourselves as dead for sin, because as Christ lives, so shall we.

Amen for that!

So in conclusion, in this one passage in Romans I can see how water baptism can be seen as a symbol of Christ's burial and resurrection, but I believe the word also pictures what happens when we are put into the body of Christ and become united with him in Spirit. That is the ultimate goal, to be united with Christ spiritually in my book. Does that preclude water baptism? I'm inclined to say no, because we do not control the Holy Spirit, although it certainly does lead and guide us. I believe the Great Commission is proof enough of the need to be baptized in water, but the true baptism, the one that puts us into the body of Christ is a Spiritual baptism.

So you allegorize every passage to have some Spiritual baptism, even though that is not what the passages are saying? In John 3:5, Jesus refers to being born again and say it is of water and the Spirit. You said it could be either physical birth or the word of God. Yet it could just as easily be the water baptism, yet you did not even include that as a possibility. First, born of water was not a term used to describe physical birth in Christ's day. If you can produce evidence to support that I would be interested. Second, Jesus did not say you must be born of living water and the Spirit. Living water is not the word of God it is the holy Spirit, so I think that eliminates your second choice. However, how was it that Jesus received the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 3:16-17 ( KJV )
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus was born of water and the Spirit.

His statement about the flesh being born of flesh is simply a reference to the statement of Nicodemus about entering a second time into the womb.


The passage in 1 Peter, you simply bypassed the fact that Peter says baptism does now save us. Peter says that baptism is the anti-type to Noah being saved by water. He says that it is not the washing of hte flesh, in other words, when you go into the water it is not to clean your flesh, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God. We go into the water not to cleanse but from a good conscience toward God. There is nothing in this passage that implies or speaks of a Spiritual baptism.

Again, with the passage in Romans, this does not mention anything about a baptism in the Spirit. Paul clearly says if we have been planted in the likeness of His death. The Greek word for likeness means something that you can see, you cannot see Spiritual baptism. The baptism that you can see is water baptism. There is no way to be true to the grammar and call this a Spiritual baptism,the grammar simply will not allow it.

The Passage in Titus 3:5, we have Spiritual baptism already mentioned. It says and renewing of the Holy Spirit. The bath of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Surely this is not speaking of a double Spiritual baptism. What is the Christian bath???? It is water baptism.

I believe that your Spiritual baptism idea is imposed on these Scriptures, they do not require such and interpretation and I don't think they even hint at one.

Butch5
May 15th 2009, 01:10 AM
When baptism is spoken of in scripture it is always referred to as...wait for it...baptism. Being born of water is not baptism. If Jesus was referring to baptism there he would have used the word baptism. Jesus clarifies what He said in John 3:5 in the very next verse.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. He didn't say that which is born of water and of the Spirit is spirit. Why? Because to be born again is to be born of the Spirit, not of water and the Spirit. Being born again is entirely spiritual and there is nothing physical about it at all.

Also, Jesus implied that what He was telling Nicodemus applied right then and there and not just to the future. He expressed surprise that Nicodemus, a great OT Jewish teacher, did not even know what He was talking about. So, if John 3:5 applies today then so does the way the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet were saved, which was by faith in Christ. Jesus implied that no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again. No one at all. Were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob baptized in water? No. Does that mean they cannot enter the kingdom of God until they are? Of course not. We are saved the same way they were: by faith.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Noah and his family were kept safe through the water, not saved by the water. People were killed by the water, not saved by it. The like figure that now saves us is "the answer of a good conscience toward God". When we repent and believe we are then baptized with the Holy Spirit. Noah and his family believed and were saved by being on the ark. The like figure to that is believing in Christ and then being kept safe from spiritual death by the baptism and sealing of the Holy Spirit.

You're not understanding what "like figure" means. It is the like spiritual figure to the physical event. The like figure is spiritual while the event it is compared to was physical. The ark was the physical thing that saved Noah and his family from physical death in the flood waters. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual like figure or antitype who saves us from spiritual death.

Again, this is not speaking of water baptism at all. The washing of regeneration is spiritual just like the renewing of the Holy Spirit is spiritual. It is a washing and renewing that is performed on the inside with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the living water (John 7:37-39) that purifies us on the inside and makes us new creations in Christ.

It is not water baptism that saves us and places us in the body of Christ. I notice that you never bring up 1 Corinthians 12:13. Why is that?

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5), which is clearly differentiated from water baptism. No water is necessary for the baptism that He performs within us, which saves us and places us in His body, the church.

Once again I believe you are missing the spiritual application of a passage. What does the likeness of His resurrection represent? Our future physical resurrection? No. The context shows that it relates to our being raised to newness of spiritual life. Are we physically raised to new spiritual life? No, there is nothing physical about it. Likewise, there is nothing physical about being planted in the likeness of His death. This is all spiritual. It's all about what happens on the inside of us when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit and born of the Spirit unto newness of spiritual life.

You are missing the meaning of terms such as "like figure" and "likeness". Those terms are used to contrast and compare spiritual events to physical events and not to compare physical with physical.

First of all, how do you know that Abraham was not baptized? Just because it is not recorded does not mean it didn't happen. Remember Christ went into the heart of the earth for three days, do you know what He did?

Second, Jesus did say you must be born of water and the Spirit and He was,

Matthew 3:16-17 ( KJV )
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Noah "was" saved by water. The water that destroyed everything else, lifted the ark and kept it from being destroyed in the flood. John, the anti-type is baptism, Peter mentions nothing about the Spirit, you guys keep adding this Spiritual concept into these passages that just is not there.
What is the answer of a good conscience towards God?

Again regarding Titus, the Greek word is literally translated "bath" this is not Spiritual, it is a bath. The Christian bath is baptism. The baptism of the Spirit is spoken of in the second clause of the verse

Regarding Romans 6, the Greek does not say in the likeness of his resurrection. It says literally,

Romans 6:5 ( YLT )
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;

The Greek word for likeness means something that you can see, you cannot see Spiritual baptism, you can see water baptism. so if you have been water baptized with Him you shall be of the rising again.

Paul is clear on this point, he makes it clear that this baptism can be seen, it is something we see with our eyes and if we partake of it we shall be in the resurrection.

Firstfruits
May 15th 2009, 07:57 AM
No they are not false, however, none of them say that belief alone saves. Therein lies the problem, nowhere does Scripture say we are saved by faith alone. That was the cry of the reformers, not Scripture. As a matter of fact, the one place Scripture speaks of faith alone, it says we are "not" saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 ( KJV )
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Also, he who believes what, is not condemned? What is it that we are to believe, in order to be saved?Consider Paul's words,

Romans 16:25-27 ( KJV )
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

What was the preaching of Jesus Christ?


Mark 16:16 ( KJV )
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The works you speak of are works that accompany salvation for we are not saved by works.

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Tit 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What I would therefore ask is what are the works you consider should accompany salvation?

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 15th 2009, 12:29 PM
No they are not false, however, none of them say that belief alone saves. Therein lies the problem, nowhere does Scripture say we are saved by faith alone. That was the cry of the reformers, not Scripture. As a matter of fact, the one place Scripture speaks of faith alone, it says we are "not" saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 ( KJV )
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Also, he who believes what, is not condemned? What is it that we are to believe, in order to be saved?Consider Paul's words,




Wow you are really missing the point of what James was saying. There are two places where a man can be justified, before God and before men. Men can't see the heart, but God Does, but what men can see is what you do with your life, how you walk and live. That is the entire point that James is saying. To those around us, simply saying we have faith is not enough, we must put it into practice/action. James was never saying that works save, but that before men our Works declare who we belong to, that being Christ.

We've been over this of Mark 16:16 before passage before, this baptism signifies a spiritual truth, not just a physical one. Matthew's version lists baptism as a Command (which would make water baptism in essence a work, but you cannot be saved by a work.)




So you allegorize every passage to have some Spiritual baptism, even though that is not what the passages are saying? In John 3:5, Jesus refers to being born again and say it is of water and the Spirit. You said it could be either physical birth or the word of God. Yet it could just as easily be the water baptism, yet you did not even include that as a possibility. First, born of water was not a term used to describe physical birth in Christ's day. If you can produce evidence to support that I would be interested. Second, Jesus did not say you must be born of living water and the Spirit. Living water is not the word of God it is the holy Spirit, so I think that eliminates your second choice. However, how was it that Jesus received the Holy Spirit?


No I was not alleogrizing, I was looking at the context to see what the pretext, posttext, and subtext of what Christ was saying to Nichodemus. You have to evaluate scripture in context, the local, within a chapter, within its book, and within the canon of scripture as well. Yeah the 2nd one is a bit more difficult. It occurred to me a few weeks ago, that Christ could be referring to what the working of Scripture does to the heart before a person is born of the Spirit, However, I agree, it is a harder possible intrepretation to hold too. I've not really thought much more about it except to ponder it for a few moments, the analogy of Physical birth makes more sense, as in the next verse Jesus says what is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of spirit spirit. This in Literature of the time is known as a Parallelism, essentially the same thought, told in a slightly different way to add emphasis. I think that the Physical birth though, that is easily understood from the passage.

As for being born of water => Physical birth, how do you know it wasn't known as thus back then? It seems a simple matter of nature that any adult at the very least would be able to understand that process, especially since most births were natural ones. Also, I've seen some evidence that many gave birth with the help of midwives in cisterns (under water). I've always wondered why that was, but my wife says, that she thinks it was easier for the child. In fact, some people even today do this.

As for the other passages, the baptism being mentioned does not necessarily have to be water baptism, and it also could have a dual inferrence, that of Water Baptism (which was commanded of the disciples at the great Commission), and the actual baptism that takes place when the believer is put into the body of Christ by the Spirit (which from Acts could happen before, or at baptism, in some cases the spirit didn't come till they had hands laid upon them.)

What i was endeavoring to get across, is that there could be a more spiritual meaning to those passages and that only by assuming he is talking about water baptism are your forced to make it mean thus. It could just as easily signify the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.



Matthew 3:16-17 ( KJV )
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus was born of water and the Spirit.

His statement about the flesh being born of flesh is simply a reference to the statement of Nicodemus about entering a second time into the womb.


Ah, but here's the thing, this was a one time thing. Do we have any record of the spirit in the Acts coming upon people in such a specific and obvious way as that after being baptized in water? No we only have this example with Christ. Given that Christ himself said he had another baptism that he would endure, this entire scene does not need to be taken to justify water baptism, but merely God putting his stamp of approval on the ministry that his son was about to begin.





The passage in 1 Peter..


The sentence doesn't end there at baptism. There is a parenthetical, what is a parenthetical:

Here are some Definitions of parenthetical on the Web (thanks to google):


parenthetical expression: an expression in parentheses; "his writing was full of parentheticals"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dparenthetical&ei=Z1kNSu2yFtPMlQfQz-yICA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNEvKMbqLQR76ItaBEAS-qM3hY0MyQ)
a word or phrase within parentheses; using, containing, or within parentheses (like this); that explains or qualifies something; that is incidental
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetical (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetical&ei=Z1kNSu2yFtPMlQfQz-yICA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGz64w3tBvgA2eY6HMFTyhUXEdyAQ)
A brief reference in parentheses at the end of a sentence referring the reader to a full citation in the bibliography of a research paper.
www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/ollc_glossary.phtml (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/ollc_glossary.phtml&ei=Z1kNSu2yFtPMlQfQz-yICA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFDdeZZTqMz2SidZtoiFyQKGC_YbQ)


Of couse the one sites Parenthesis, so let's get its definition while we are at it:

Definitions of parenthesis on the Web:


either of two punctuation marks (or) used to enclose textual material
digression: a message that departs from the main subject
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dparenthesis&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNHnhyFxCHS3Nuk-dDjn9lnvvAPCBQ)
In rhetoric, a parenthesis (plural: parentheses; from the Greek word παρένθεσις, which comes in turn from words meaning "alongside of" and "to place") is according to the Oxford English Dictionary.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthesis_(rhetoric) (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthesis_%28rhetoric%29&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNHyFwK7xIMcYPyEM_S6dB7f2zbAZg)
A clause (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clause), phrase (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/phrase) or word (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/word) which is inserted (usually for explanation or amplification) into a passage (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/passage) which is already grammatically complete, and usually marked off with brackets, commas or dashes.
(rhetoric) A digression (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digression); the use of such digressions.
Either of a pair of brackets, especially round brackets, ( (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%28) and ) (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%29), used to enclose parenthetical material in a text.
(mathematics, logic) Such brackets as used to clarify expressions by grouping those terms affected by a common operator, or to enclose the components (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/component) of a vector (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vector) or the elements (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/element) of a matrix (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matrix).

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthesis (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthesis&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGTUsNB5FYUVPbyaNdb-y2FOBuhWQ)
parenthetic - qualifying or explaining; placed or as if placed in parentheses; "parenthetical remarks"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dparenthetic&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNEwzGTipq3PrCvKlLVIpoG8ykkfXg)
Parenthetic - Parenthetical referencing is a citation system in which in-text citations are made using parentheses, as opposed to footnotes. Full references are collected in alphabetical order by author's last name under a "references" or "bibliography" section at the end. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthetic (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenthetic&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGgtKKvZfkkhSiu21rhqAL9zQV1rw)
parenthetical - a word or phrase within parentheses; using, containing, or within parentheses (like this); that explains or qualifies something; that is incidental
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetical (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetical&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFYLfyceKnaBeaKEfxLAybxANydMA)
parenthetic - Of, pertaining to, or as if using parentheses; That digresses; discursive or rambling
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetic (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetic&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFqeINZasIXGoQZxm9izFepV_cBUw)
parenthetically - As an aside, incidentally
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetically (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parenthetically&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGj1w91WM4ZOtP5LOXtbYKb_nNC0g)
Insertion of some verbal unit in a position that interrupts the normal flow of the sentence.
mail.baylorschool.org/~jstover/toolbox/syntax.html (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://mail.baylorschool.org/%7Ejstover/toolbox/syntax.html&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNHrOGLbyJzIP-3RsPUwvbKjqEEPSQ)
parentheses - (the singular is parenthesis, with an i) – sometimes called round brackets, curved brackets or just brackets; or, colloquially, parens, or ...
https://scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Bracket (http://www.google.com/url?&q=https://scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Bracket&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNHsDLY9oBf7d2QVFYQU6EngNsWBFA)
a word, clause or even sentence which is inserted into a sentence to which it does not grammatically belong
www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/knowitall/resources/english.htm (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/knowitall/resources/english.htm&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNGikq82xFi40eLETt858R6g3rZkDw)
the operation(s) to do first in order of operations
library.thinkquest.org/5196/Workpages/definitions.htm (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://library.thinkquest.org/5196/Workpages/definitions.htm&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNETjS1r1PNZGurG7sVvzI7vwuT_jA)
Either or both of the upright curved lines, ( ), used to mark off explanatory or qualifying remarks in writing or printing or other expression ...
www.canberra.edu.au/pilot/help/glossary.jsp~key=P.html (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://www.canberra.edu.au/pilot/help/glossary.jsp%7Ekey%3DP.html&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFDfWkcx7e2GM-MrCL_BPhI26GGOg)
(Gr. parantithenai, insert)- a inserted word, sentence, explanatory or characterizing, a syntactical insertion.
www.iaya-students.narod.ru/files/VOCABULARY_FOR_STYLE_ANALYSIS.doc (http://www.google.com/url?&q=http://www.iaya-students.narod.ru/files/VOCABULARY_FOR_STYLE_ANALYSIS.doc&ei=ylkNSpG_Ksa-lAeciamUCA&sa=X&oi=define&ct=&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNFjj2RmlHhYi-A32Qp7zSqCA9PB6w)

So having a better understanding of the parenthetical, in effect, its a sentence or idea buried withinside the sentence, and since the period doesn't fall there but after:

1 Pe 3:21-22 (NKJV)

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

1 Peter 3:21-22 (NKJV)

Which maens you could in effect skip over the parenthetical and the idea continues, baptism, through the resurrection of Christ......What is the Resurrection of Christ though? Is it not being made alive? Being born again Spiritually?



The passage in 1 Peter, you simply bypassed the fact that Peter says baptism does now save us. Peter says that baptism is the anti-type to Noah being saved by water. He says that it is not the washing of hte flesh, in other words, when you go into the water it is not to clean your flesh, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God. We go into the water not to cleanse but from a good conscience toward God. There is nothing in this passage that implies or speaks of a Spiritual baptism.



Back to what you said. Yes, What peter is saying is that the baptism is NOT an outward cleansing, but the response of a good Conscience toward God. It is an Inward cleansing not an outward one. Can water cleanse within? Not through the way most people practice baptism, I'd say. So what is Peter really saying. He is saying that true baptism occurs in the heart. He also is saying that those who submit to be baptized in water, do so because they want a clear conscience with God. So in effect two things happen. One its a step of faith and obedience to what Christ commanded at his Asencion, and it is the answer, the inward cleansing of the heart. It is in effect both. I would argue that it is the inward cleansing which saves, not the physical water.




Again, with the passage in Romans, this does not mention anything about a baptism in the Spirit. Paul clearly says if we have been planted in the likeness of His death. The Greek word for likeness means something that you can see, you cannot see Spiritual baptism. The baptism that you can see is water baptism. There is no way to be true to the grammar and call this a Spiritual baptism,the grammar simply will not allow it.


In the Romans Passage, I was saying that Paul is writing about spiritual matters, not physical ones. And yes I know you cannot see Spiritual Baptism per say, that's precisely why I believe we still practice water baptism today, because it is a symbol outwardly of what should have taken place in the heart already. But I disagree with you on your grammar point of view. I think Paul is talking not about a physical baptism, but a spiritual one. Not that he literally means Baptism of the Holy Spirit as the Charismatics believe, but that he is speaking about a spiritual matter, and not just a physical one.

Veretax
May 15th 2009, 12:31 PM
continued...



The Passage in Titus 3:5, we have Spiritual baptism already mentioned. It says and renewing of the Holy Spirit. The bath of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Surely this is not speaking of a double Spiritual baptism. What is the Christian bath???? It is water baptism.

I believe that your Spiritual baptism idea is imposed on these Scriptures, they do not require such and interpretation and I don't think they even hint at one.

Tit 3:4-7 (NKJV)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV)

There are two things that Peter is saying that Christ did for us that we may be saved. First is the washing of regeneration. What is this? It is the cleansing us from Sins, but the cleansing alone is clearly not enough because this is linked to the renewing of the Holy Spirit. What is the renewing of the Holy Spirit? It is the regeneration of our spirit, it is literally us being born again, and made into a new creature, different than we were born, with a Spirit that is no longer dead unto God, but alive. Without the renewing of the Holy Spirit, I do not think it would be possible to walk rightly at all as a Christian.


If Peter was referring to water baptism here why would he say washing instead of the water baptism? We know he uses the word baptism elsewhere in his epistle, why not here? Because, the washing is internal. Both of these things happen simultaneously at the moment of true faith. That is what I personally believe. You are free to disagree with me of course.

I find it odd that you've never considered that in some places what is written is actually a spiritual concern and not a physical one. You then say that I am imposing something on the passage. I'm not. I'm reading in context, and I find it even odder, that if water baptism is as big a deal as some are making it out to be, why Paul and Peter, and others did not speen a great deal more time talking about it than they did. I mean if it is a requirement to be saved.

Frankly, I think water baptism is such a simple thing, that we want to read more into it than is there. We want to add additional significance to things we do to somehow justify ourselves, but the bible is clear, it is God through Christ who does the Justifying. It is his Spirit that washes our hearts and regenerates our spirit. We may give our ascent in faith and belief, but the rest, as far as Salvation is concerned is in God's hands, not mine, and not in any mans hands either.

You keep saying it is a bath, but why do you think the priests and people coming to sacrifice had to cleanse themselves, in some cases, literally in a bath? was it because they were dirty outside? or was it because they were fithly inside. Again I say, the entire point of those parts of the ceremonial law was to instill in their minds that they were spiritually unclean, and should prepare themselves before coming to the altar. (In some cases those laws also would have helped prevent disease as well.), so I don't understand why you insist it must be a physical bath, when clearly it is our spiritual condition that is the reason Christ came in the first place.



First of all, how do you know that Abraham was not baptized? Just because it is not recorded does not mean it didn't happen. Remember Christ went into the heart of the earth for three days, do you know what He did?


First off Seriously, I can't believe you just wrote that. Is the bible not the inspired word of God? Don't you think that if Baptism was that important and Abraham had been Baptized that the Lord would make sure it was in there. That just fails even a basic logic test.

embankmentlb
May 15th 2009, 01:05 PM
Veretax ,

Why are you introducing a LOGICAL interpretation of the Bible into this discussion?
Apparently the group opinion is that tradition & denominational doctrine trump the word of God every time.

John 3:4-6
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

Looking at this objectively, water has to be Water Baptism.

Teke
May 15th 2009, 01:50 PM
Teke,

I appreciate the tenderness with how you approach this subject, and it may surprise you that I agree at least in part. When I put my trust in Christ, it wasn't about just being saved from sin so I can go on my merry way. I was transformed that day, and immediately I found myself no longer desiring the sinful things I once did.

Bless you Veretax. :hug:
Not everyone is so blessed that they do not have to struggle against sin any longer after their baptism. Thank God in His mercy for confession.


I believe in being a fruit inspector. I think with the Holy Spirit with us we can get a pretty good idea whether a person is or is not saved. There are some who are crafty at hiding it, but they can't do it forever. I knew some girls in High School who I thought, by their actions were saved, but when I became familiar with them in a College environment, their attitude and reactions changed dramatically. In fact, this was a rather hard lesson the Lord taught me, that many people I thought were probably saved in High School, may not have known the same Savior that I did, and it broke my heart, made it more tender, and opened my eyes to be more aware of what was going on around me. My former pastor called it spiritual perception, the ability and awareness to realize when the Spirit is trying to tell you something isn't right or someone is not being genuine.

Anyhow, right there is an example of just what you say. A person who I believed, claimed to be a Christian, even knew some scripture. A person I at the time admired and respected, (in a couple of cases even saw as potential mates, so perhaps that blinded me to the reality of the flaws.) Yet when they got out from under the roof of discipline, they began to shed the facade they had put on at High School.

I've always been rather introspective, and careful to not put on airs or fronts, but to be consistently honest and straight forward. The hard part during those days was learning that not everyone else cared to be so genuine.

And I agree, speaking a confession or prayer out loud is insufficient to be truly saved. True confession is in effect repentance from the former way, a turning from the old, and replacing it with Christ. If there is no change within, then that person was never saved, they may know the bible even from an academic perspective, but unless they have faith of the heart, then they, in my belief, do not have Christ at all. The sad part is so many around us wear Christian Clothes, and yet they do not really walk in Christ's shoes or paths.

So no I agree, you must show true fruit, and while many may try to fake it, God knows the heart, and noone can put on a facade forever.

I don't believe we should judge people. We do not know what God is doing with them. But if they are baptized we should believe that the Lord is doing a work in them. Those who are still in their youth may need more cultivating before they bear fruit. The prodigal son is a son though a prodigal. The Father waits on them. Just as the prodigals father waited for him to return.

In our lives there are times/seasons, when God is allowing us to learn by our mistakes. I call it an apophatic manner. God seems to teach us in this manner. For how can we know what is good if we do not know what is bad, that is of ourselves not others. Jesus said we are to judge ourselves first.

Hold to your faith and watch God be glorified. There is a girl that I went to school with who was raised in a RC home. She was sprinkled when she was a babe. All my life that I have known her she has not denied the Lord. But she also would not submit to baptism, for whatever her reasons. Over the years she has been to church with me quite few times. Last weekend she came to church and said she wanted to be baptized. I was amazed. She is fifty years old now. And she has lived what we would term a lascivious life.

I never once believed that she would not one day turn to the Lord. As the Lord said, Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not:....Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

We cannot be paranoid Christians in faith. He is able to do all things, but in His time not ours. not my will, but thine, be done.

Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

We are not to concern ourselves with what the Lord has in store for others. Our job is to follow Christ and to pursue the mission He has given to us.

Peace be with you,
Eve

Veretax
May 15th 2009, 02:49 PM
Veretax ,

Why are you introducing a LOGICAL interpretation of the Bible into this discussion?


My point is that you cannot assume based on absence that Abraham was baptized, or that God who is the ultimate author of scripture would have unintentionally left out such a detail. I believe that what is in scripture is exactly what we need in this life to endure what life throws at us, and to prepare us for the next. So yes, in this case I use logic, because it makes absolutely zero sense to argue that Abraham might have been baptized, but it wasn't written in the bible anywhere.



Apparently the group opinion is that tradition & denominational doctrine trump the word of God every time.

John 3:4-6
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

Looking at this objectively, water has to be Water Baptism.

Actually looking at it objectively, without blinders to what you currently believe concerning baptism (something I admit that at one time I had before changing my beliefs about baptism to what they are basically today). You cannot assume that water = baptism. Water is used many times in the Gospel of John, and not every time is it a reference to Baptism. In fact I would make the argument that water infrequently if ever Is used to mean anything remotely like baptism. There are a few occasions, in reference to John's baptism, or when they talk about water baptism in acts, but many times it talks about other more spiritual things, or just plain ordinary water.

However, I've written a post about that once already somewhere on this board, and it was nearly exhaustative and quite lengthy. If I can find it I'll re-post it later, but not here.

Bottom line, consider this. The word used for Water in that passage is the greek word Hudor



5204hudor { hoo’-dore}

genitive case, hudatos { hoo’-dat-os} , etc., from the base of 5205; TDNT - 8:314, 1203; n n

AV - water 79; 79

GK - 5623 { ὕδωρ }

1) water

1a) of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools

1b) of the water of the deluge

1c) of water in any of the earth’s repositories

1d) of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted

1e) of the waves of the sea

1f) fig. used of many peoples



Anyhow, we are clearly not going to agree on this point, and that's fine, I don't believe it is a point that affects salvation in any way. But water is not always referring to baptism, that's my point here.




Bless you Veretax. :hug:
I don't believe we should judge people. We do not know what God is doing with them. But if they are baptized we should believe that the Lord is doing a work in them. Those who are still in their youth may need more cultivating before they bear fruit. The prodigal son is a son though a prodigal. The Father waits on them. Just as the prodigals father waited for him to return.


The bible says we will judge the nations, and I really get irritated at people who think that because jesus said "Judge not lest ye be judged" that we should never ever use our God given ability to discern right from wrong. Jesus wasn't saying not to judge. he was saying, that to judge ourselves by the same standards that we would judge others. We must exercise the discernment his Spirit gives us, and sometimes that means saying something is Sin, and that God doesn't like any sin.

Oh I agree, I'm not judging anyone's motives immediately after Salvation either. We've all likely gone through a time, especially immediately after we were saved, when we struggled some against the flesh. Some of us continue to do it up until the day we die. I'm not saying we judge people based upon a few actions. What I was saying is that those who are lieing to the Congregation about their faith, will not be able to hide it forever. God knows their heart, and if they don't take a good look at themselves, such a person is in serious trouble IMO.

That's another reason I think we need to be open and aware of what is happening around us so that we can help those around us, because we don't know that the people in our Church are in fact saved. There are a group of people, many who believe that simply attending a church, or being on its membership rolls saves them. That is one of the biggest lies the devil has used in our present age.

This is why they urge us to test and work out our salvation, which literally means to prove that we are in fact saved. If our faith is on the solid rock, we shall stand through every trial that comes, but if its not, or is non existent, then we shall fall as a house on the sand against the tempest and wind.



Also great story. Another thing I believe is that God's word does have its effect on people. we do not always see it right away, but I believe our efforts to witness are never in vain, and are always useful to bring others to him. That doesn't mean that everyone we preach to shall be saved, but it means we can with good Conscience preach, knowing that it is only through his words that people can come to understand what Christ did, and once they understand, only then can they truly put their trust in him alone for salvation.


Oh... I think I just understood what you are saying and let me clarify what I meant. When I submitted to believers baptism, after that there was a time of peace and clarity that was greater than I had since I first believed. That doesn't mean I don't still struggle with sin, but for a time, It was like I had extra resistance to it. I don't know if that happens to everyone, and for some new converts, depending on how wicked a life they once lived, it could in fact be difficult, but I have never regretted submitting to baptism, and I don't believe I ever well either.

John146
May 15th 2009, 08:18 PM
First, born of water was not a term used to describe physical birth in Christ's day. If you can produce evidence to support that I would be interested.Do you have any evidence to support the idea that water baptism was referred to in terms of being born of water in Christ's day? If you can produce evidence to support that I would be interested.

John146
May 15th 2009, 08:51 PM
First of all, how do you know that Abraham was not baptized? Just because it is not recorded does not mean it didn't happen. Remember Christ went into the heart of the earth for three days, do you know what He did?You're really reaching here, IMO. I thought you believed that "Christian baptism" was not instituted officially until Pentecost or at least not until after His resurrection? Also, if the supposed necessity of water baptism for salvation was in effect when Jesus died then the thief on the cross wouldn't be saved since the thief on the cross died after Jesus did.


Second, Jesus did say you must be born of water and the Spirit and He was,

Matthew 3:16-17 ( KJV )
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. That isn't describing a birth. Are you suggesting that Jesus needed to be born again?!


Noah "was" saved by water. The water that destroyed everything else, lifted the ark and kept it from being destroyed in the flood.Come on. I'm not buying this. The water didn't save anyone.


John, the anti-type is baptism, Peter mentions nothing about the Spirit, you guys keep adding this Spiritual concept into these passages that just is not there.
What is the answer of a good conscience towards God?Salvation. Having a good conscience towards God means you have repented of your sins and put your faith in Christ, resulting in being baptized with the Holy Spirit.


Again regarding Titus, the Greek word is literally translated "bath" this is not Spiritual, it is a bath.Does this mean the Holy Spirit cannot be referred to as living water?

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



What is being regenerated and renewed? Our flesh? No, our spirits. There's nothing physical about the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. That is spiritually describing what the Holy Spirit performs within us when He makes us into new creations in Christ.



The Christian bath is baptism. The baptism of the Spirit is spoken of in the second clause of the verseNo, the regeneration and renewing are referring to the same thing and it's all performed by the Holy Spirit.


Regarding Romans 6, the Greek does not say in the likeness of his resurrection. It says literally,

Romans 6:5 ( YLT )
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; I believe the KJV has it right because the verse is making a comparison of the likeness of his death with something else. What? The likeness of His resurrection is walking in newness of spiritual life. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:6, we are raised up together and made to "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".


The Greek word for likeness means something that you can see, you cannot see Spiritual baptism, you can see water baptism. so if you have been water baptized with Him you shall be of the rising again.

Paul is clear on this point, he makes it clear that this baptism can be seen, it is something we see with our eyes and if we partake of it we shall be in the resurrection.I completely disagree. You can say that the word has to mean something you can see all you want, but it doesn't make it so. Paul taught that we are placed in the body of Christ, not by water baptism, but by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

Butch5
May 16th 2009, 03:55 AM
Veretax---continued...

Tit 3:4-7 (NKJV)

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV)

There are two things that Peter is saying that Christ did for us that we may be saved. First is the washing of regeneration. What is this? It is the cleansing us from Sins, but the cleansing alone is clearly not enough because this is linked to the renewing of the Holy Spirit. What is the renewing of the Holy Spirit? It is the regeneration of our spirit, it is literally us being born again, and made into a new creature, different than we were born, with a Spirit that is no longer dead unto God, but alive. Without the renewing of the Holy Spirit, I do not think it would be possible to walk rightly at all as a Christian.


If Peter was referring to water baptism here why would he say washing instead of the water baptism? We know he uses the word baptism elsewhere in his epistle, why not here? Because, the washing is internal. Both of these things happen simultaneously at the moment of true faith. That is what I personally believe. You are free to disagree with me of course.

I find it odd that you've never considered that in some places what is written is actually a spiritual concern and not a physical one. You then say that I am imposing something on the passage. I'm not. I'm reading in context, and I find it even odder, that if water baptism is as big a deal as some are making it out to be, why Paul and Peter, and others did not speen a great deal more time talking about it than they did. I mean if it is a requirement to be saved.

Frankly, I think water baptism is such a simple thing, that we want to read more into it than is there. We want to add additional significance to things we do to somehow justify ourselves, but the bible is clear, it is God through Christ who does the Justifying. It is his Spirit that washes our hearts and regenerates our spirit. We may give our ascent in faith and belief, but the rest, as far as Salvation is concerned is in God's hands, not mine, and not in any mans hands either.

You keep saying it is a bath, but why do you think the priests and people coming to sacrifice had to cleanse themselves, in some cases, literally in a bath? was it because they were dirty outside? or was it because they were fithly inside. Again I say, the entire point of those parts of the ceremonial law was to instill in their minds that they were spiritually unclean, and should prepare themselves before coming to the altar. (In some cases those laws also would have helped prevent disease as well.), so I don't understand why you insist it must be a physical bath, when clearly it is our spiritual condition that is the reason Christ came in the first place.


First, the reason the apostles did not dwell on baptism is because, unlike today, the people did not argue about baptism. They knew that it was necessary for them to be baptized in order to be saved. If you look at the letters of the NT the were written to address different issues that were facing the new believers. Baptism was not an issue, the apostles made it so clear that baptism was necessary that the people did not question it, hence not much writing on the subject.

Second, you mentioned the washings in the OT, if the people did not cleanse themselves before going before God to offer for their sins, would they have been accepted? No. They would have been rejected by God. Why is it any different now? We enter baptism in the Good conscience towards God, as Peter puts it. In that baptism God bestows the Holy Spirit and we are born again, Just as Jesus said, born of water and the Spirit.
You interpret this as a spiritual cleansing, yet there is nothing in the passage to warrant a spiritual interpretation. The first century Christians had seen years of water baptism. If you said baptism to a first century Christian they assumed water, they would not assume a spiritual baptism. So, unless Paul were to tell them that he was speaking of a spiritual baptism, their logical assumption would be water baptism.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that God would use water to save? Consider His past.

Noah was saved by water
Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit
Naaman was healed when he dipped 7 times in the water
What of the pool of Bethesda?
When Jesus healed the blind man, He spit on his eyes. More water.
What about the other blind man, Jesus spat on the ground and made clay, put it on his eyes and told him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam.
What about the Jews coming out of Egypt? They were saved by water, the Red Sea destroyed the Egyptian armies.




Veretax---First off Seriously, I can't believe you just wrote that. Is the bible not the inspired word of God? Don't you think that if Baptism was that important and Abraham had been Baptized that the Lord would make sure it was in there. That just fails even a basic logic test.

So, if something is not in the Bible, does that mean it didn't happen? The Scriptures tell us that Christ spent 3 days in the hades and preached to the spirits in prison, do you know what went on there? Why is it not possible that Abraham was not baptized? We don't know what happened there.

embankmentlb
May 16th 2009, 10:40 AM
Why do you find it so hard to believe that God would use water to save? Consider His past.

Noah was saved by water
Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit
Naaman was healed when he dipped 7 times in the water
What of the pool of Bethesda?
When Jesus healed the blind man, He spit on his eyes. More water.
What about the other blind man, Jesus spat on the ground and made clay, put it on his eyes and told him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam.
What about the Jews coming out of Egypt? They were saved by water, the Red Sea destroyed the Egyptian armies.

there.

Let the tail wag the dog.

Firstfruits
May 16th 2009, 10:55 AM
First, the reason the apostles did not dwell on baptism is because, unlike today, the people did not argue about baptism. They knew that it was necessary for them to be baptized in order to be saved. If you look at the letters of the NT the were written to address different issues that were facing the new believers. Baptism was not an issue, the apostles made it so clear that baptism was necessary that the people did not question it, hence not much writing on the subject.

Second, you mentioned the washings in the OT, if the people did not cleanse themselves before going before God to offer for their sins, would they have been accepted? No. They would have been rejected by God. Why is it any different now? We enter baptism in the Good conscience towards God, as Peter puts it. In that baptism God bestows the Holy Spirit and we are born again, Just as Jesus said, born of water and the Spirit.
You interpret this as a spiritual cleansing, yet there is nothing in the passage to warrant a spiritual interpretation. The first century Christians had seen years of water baptism. If you said baptism to a first century Christian they assumed water, they would not assume a spiritual baptism. So, unless Paul were to tell them that he was speaking of a spiritual baptism, their logical assumption would be water baptism.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that God would use water to save? Consider His past.

Noah was saved by water
Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit
Naaman was healed when he dipped 7 times in the water
What of the pool of Bethesda?
When Jesus healed the blind man, He spit on his eyes. More water.
What about the other blind man, Jesus spat on the ground and made clay, put it on his eyes and told him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam.
What about the Jews coming out of Egypt? They were saved by water, the Red Sea destroyed the Egyptian armies.





So, if something is not in the Bible, does that mean it didn't happen? The Scriptures tell us that Christ spent 3 days in the hades and preached to the spirits in prison, do you know what went on there? Why is it not possible that Abraham was not baptized? We don't know what happened there.

"Why do you find it so hard to believe that God would use water to save? Consider His past."

Jesus is whom God has sent to forgive and to save.

Acts 5:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 13:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 26:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Jer 31:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=31&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jer 36:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=24&CHAP=36&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Jesus is the only way, forgivness/remission of sin is not by baptism.

Firstfruits

Teke
May 16th 2009, 07:06 PM
Why do you find it so hard to believe that God would use water to save? Consider His past.

Noah was saved by water
Jesus said you must be born of water and the Spirit
Naaman was healed when he dipped 7 times in the water
What of the pool of Bethesda?
When Jesus healed the blind man, He spit on his eyes. More water.
What about the other blind man, Jesus spat on the ground and made clay, put it on his eyes and told him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam.
What about the Jews coming out of Egypt? They were saved by water, the Red Sea destroyed the Egyptian armies.



Indeed Butch, water is essential for Jesus' little fishes, as the early Christians called themselves. The Deluge (flood of water) was seen as chaotic unsettled matter in theosophy.
Even Jesus said the only sign given is that of Jonah, the man in fish in water.

I believe such symbolism has cosmic implications as well as being useful for Jesus in recapitulating all mankind in the God-Man. There are many points of understanding this reaches in relating the unseen spiritual workings. ie. why Joseph's son Ephraim receives the greater blessing

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