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th1bill
Apr 30th 2009, 05:59 PM
... At Church, on Wednesday evenings, we are studying Christianity 101 and the course text is the Letter to the Romans. For a long time now I have taught that this letter of Paul's is the Christian's Manifesto. As this letter is studied one cannot help but to arrive at Romans 6:1-8 and the inevitable question must be asked, “If this is true, why do we still stumble into sin?”
... The reason is because we are still carrying that sinful dead man around until the time that we are translated into Heaven. Life example, ok? Before I was saved I often appeared on stage with my guitar in a Honky Tonk, I planned to sin before the sun came up the next morning. As a Christian, because I know the affect that whiskey has on me I do not enjoy that drink any longer and as soon as I was aware of being overcome by the Holy Spirit, I literally walked off the stage and took my guitar home, leaving my night's pay right where it was. I, no longer, had a heart for seeking after the things of the night.
... I was instructed by Pastor and Missionary Richard Clark that a very good illustration of this condition was a practice used by the Romans to punish murders in parts of their empire. When the offender was caught, in the act or very soon after, they bound the body of the murdered person to the back of the murderer and the only escape from this was for the corpse to rot off your back without the disease and rot killing you. In like manor, as a Christian, we carry the burden of who and what we were until we are translated into Heaven. Unlike the murdered Roman, our old man will not rot away but if we remain in the Word of God, we can defeat the influence of the old man on ourselves.

markedward
Apr 30th 2009, 11:31 PM
Romans 7.15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

1 John 1.8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 5.18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

When we are raised to life in God (i.e., "born of God"), our sins are forgiven, and we are dead to sin. But sin continues to exist within us. It is not we, the sons of God* who sin, but it is the sin [noun] that is within us that sins [verb].

*Matthew 5.9, Romans 8.14, Romans 9.26, Galatians 3.26

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 01:22 AM
... At Church, on Wednesday evenings, we are studying Christianity 101 and the course text is the Letter to the Romans. For a long time now I have taught that this letter of Paul's is the Christian's Manifesto. As this letter is studied one cannot help but to arrive at Romans 6:1-8 and the inevitable question must be asked, “If this is true, why do we still stumble into sin?”
... The reason is because we are still carrying that sinful dead man around until the time that we are translated into Heaven. Life example, ok? Before I was saved I often appeared on stage with my guitar in a Honky Tonk, I planned to sin before the sun came up the next morning. As a Christian, because I know the affect that whiskey has on me I do not enjoy that drink any longer and as soon as I was aware of being overcome by the Holy Spirit, I literally walked off the stage and took my guitar home, leaving my night's pay right where it was. I, no longer, had a heart for seeking after the things of the night.
... I was instructed by Pastor and Missionary Richard Clark that a very good illustration of this condition was a practice used by the Romans to punish murders in parts of their empire. When the offender was caught, in the act or very soon after, they bound the body of the murdered person to the back of the murderer and the only escape from this was for the corpse to rot off your back without the disease and rot killing you. In like manor, as a Christian, we carry the burden of who and what we were until we are translated into Heaven. Unlike the murdered Roman, our old man will not rot away but if we remain in the Word of God, we can defeat the influence of the old man on ourselves.

Those who sin and continue to sin are sinners and in fact not Christians.

Contrary to popular belief, an individual is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved, but rather they are filled with the Holy Spirit in a second subsequent work of grace called Sanctification.

In the work of Sanctification, the carnal nature/depraved nature is eradicated, thus God purifies the heart completely to which the Holy Spirit is then free to fill that pure heart, and cleanse it from all sin.

If there is a continual struggle with sin, Sanctification is the key and final victory over sin, and it is possible to obtain in this life.

-SEEKING-
May 1st 2009, 01:34 AM
Those who sin and continue to sin are sinners and in fact not Christians.

Contrary to popular belief, an individual is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved, but rather they are filled with the Holy Spirit in a second subsequent work of grace called Sanctification.

In the work of Sanctification, the carnal nature/depraved nature is eradicated, thus God purifies the heart completely to which the Holy Spirit is then free to fill that pure heart, and cleanse it from all sin.

If there is a continual struggle with sin, Sanctification is the key and final victory over sin, and it is possible to obtain in this life.

Please provide some scriptures for this second work.

markedward
May 1st 2009, 01:48 AM
Second.........

th1bill
May 1st 2009, 01:59 AM
Romans 7.15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

1 John 1.8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 5.18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

When we are raised to life in God (i.e., "born of God"), our sins are forgiven, and we are dead to sin. But sin continues to exist within us. It is not we, the sons of God* who sin, but it is the sin [noun] that is within us that sins [verb].

*Matthew 5.9, Romans 8.14, Romans 9.26, Galatians 3.26
... A great response.

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 02:05 AM
Please provide some scriptures for this second work.

To begin with:

Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Notice the apostles were asked if they'd received the Holy Ghost SINCE they've been saved . This scripture here obviously assures us that individuals are not filled with the Holy Ghost when repenting of their sins and obtaining Salvation.

Now some examples:

[B]The Romans

At the time Paul wrote his epistle to them, it cannot be denied they were children of God. They were the "called of Jesus Christ," "beloved of God," "saints," and their "faith was spoken of throughout the whole world." Rom. 1:6 8. Yet they were not established in holiness. Rom. 1:11; 1 Thess. 3:13. Paul showed them that this degree of grace was to be entered by faith. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom [through whom—Sawyer] also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."—Rom. 5 :1, 2

"Being justified" they had "peace with God." Yet they were not established in perfect holiness. He then clearly showed them that besides "being justified," they had "also access by faith into this grace wherein we stand;" namely, the establishing grace: and that it was entered "through Christ."

He further exhorted them to attain to this experience, "Yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."—Rom. 6:13. "Present yourselves to God."— Revised. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. . . . that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God."—Rom. 12:1, 2. "This is the will of God, even your sanctification."—1 Thess. 4:3. "Even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."—Rom. 6:19. "So now present your members bound to righteousness, for sanctification."—Emphatic D.

This is positive and clear. The Roman "brethren" were already regenerated—"made alive from the dead"— and now Paul commands them to present themselves a living sacrifice unto God, "for sanctification." This was not to be deferred until death, but "now present yourselves," etc.

The Corinthians

Paul addressed them as "brethren ;" "the church of God;" "God's husbandry;" "God's building." "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus."—1 Cor. 1:30. "Babes in Christ." —1 Cor. 3:1. They had "believed, and were baptized." Acts 18:8; 1 Cor. 3:5. This is sufficient proof that they were not backslidden when Paul wrote his epistle to them. A few of them had already attained to the experience of entire sanctification (1 Cor. 1:2), but the majority were yet carnal. 1 Cor. 3:1 3. This does not imply that they had lost the grace of God, and had become carnal, but ye are "yet carnal;" that is, ye have allowed inbred carnality to remain in you until the present time.

Paul urged these brethren on to the experience of perfect holiness. "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect." —2 Cor. 13:11. "And this also we wish, even your perfection."—Ver. 9. "Having therefore these p r o m i s e s, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and Spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."—2 Cor. 7:1. "And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit." "second grace."—Margin. 2 Cor. 1:15. Here we see that Paul not only urged these brethren by letter, but earnestly desired to come unto them that they might receive this "second grace."

The Thessalonians

1. They were fully converted. Paul addressed them as "the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ." He further says, "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers: remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in the word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance: as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: so that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad.... Ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God."—1 Thess. 1:1 9.

This is too plain to need comment. It cannot be denied that the Thessalonian brethren, to whom Paul addressed his epistle, were genuinely converted to God.

2. They were not backslidden. Paul was at Athens and sent Timothy to "comfort them concerning their faith." —3:1, 2. "Now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you: therefore, brethren, we are comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith."—1 Thess. 3:6, 7. Here we see that Timothy brought Paul a good report of their spiritual condition. But while they were clearly justified, there was still something lacking.

3. A Lack, "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith."—1 Thess. 3:10.

4. What was the lack? "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblamable in holiness."—1 Thess. 3:13. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification." 4: :3 "For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." 4:7. "And the very God of peace sanctify you' wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."—1 Thess. 5 :23, 24. "The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil."—2 Thess. 3:3.

These passages only scratch the surface, but I trust that helps.

th1bill
May 1st 2009, 02:07 AM
Those who sin and continue to sin are sinners and in fact not Christians.

Contrary to popular belief, an individual is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved, but rather they are filled with the Holy Spirit in a second subsequent work of grace called Sanctification.

In the work of Sanctification, the carnal nature/depraved nature is eradicated, thus God purifies the heart completely to which the Holy Spirit is then free to fill that pure heart, and cleanse it from all sin.

If there is a continual struggle with sin, Sanctification is the key and final victory over sin, and it is possible to obtain in this life.
... Because you have already been asked to provide the scriptures for your unsupported, at this time, claim I'll just ask you a question. You have already stated, by posting here that you are in fact a Christian and you have further stated, as I comprehend it, that a Holy Spirit filled Christian does not sin. My question is therefore, "Have you sinned this year or last?"

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 02:16 AM
... Because you have already been asked to provide the scriptures for your unsupported, at this time, claim I'll just ask you a question. You have already stated, by posting here that you are in fact a Christian and you have further stated, as I comprehend it, that a Holy Spirit filled Christian does not sin. My question is therefore, "Have you sinned this year or last?"

Haven't sinned once since I got saved and sanctified. Now some accuse me immediately of being self-righteous, but that is not the case at all. The only reason I can live this way is because of Almighty God and his grace that he provides daily. For example in His Word he declares:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling....

The word falling in this passage means "sinning" in the Greek.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christians do not sin:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him [Christ] sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 03:11 AM
It all comes down to which dog you feed the most. If you feed the old man more than the new man, then you reap carnal results.

The real secret is that the old man is suppose to killed daily, starved, and strangled to death. If we allow him to live without being under attack by the spirit man then the old soul man's leaven of carnality leavens the whole batch.

The carnal soul man is our enemy. Scripture says that he cannot submit to the law of God, and he has no desire to do so. The old man often plays comeleon in the cloak of religion, hides in legalism, and puts on the mask of good works to most person's detriment.

He is the source of most hypocrisy and surprise occasions of how did this happen and get in this mess.

th1bill
May 1st 2009, 03:44 AM
Haven't sinned once since I got saved and sanctified. Now some accuse me immediately of being self-righteous, but that is not the case at all. The only reason I can live this way is because of Almighty God and his grace that he provides daily. For example in His Word he declares:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling....

The word falling in this passage means "sinning" in the Greek.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christians do not sin:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him [Christ] sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
... If you will just stick to the point and stop trying to demonstrate your superiority this will be painless for you or it should.
... Okay, you haven't sinned for a long time so it is reasonable to assume that the orrect answer to my question was that you have not sinned this year or last year. Now, do you drive?

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 04:17 AM
Uh........


1Co 10:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+10:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 John 1:8-10 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


Romans 7:17-22
17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

Gulah Papyrus
May 1st 2009, 04:31 AM
Haven't sinned once since I got saved and sanctified.
Fascinating...when you say that you have not sinned, do you mean that because you are saved, your sins are not counted against you? Or are you actually claiming that you have not done or thought a single thing that God would find imperfect?:confused

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 04:52 AM
Haven't sinned once since I got saved and sanctified. Now some accuse me immediately of being self-righteous, but that is not the case at all. The only reason I can live this way is because of Almighty God and his grace that he provides daily. For example in His Word he declares:

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling....

The word falling in this passage means "sinning" in the Greek.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christians do not sin:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him [Christ] sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
The proper biblical answer from someone in such a state would be that they are not aware of any sin.
The scriptures say, let everyone of you who is perfect have this attitude...
I believe to openly state that you are totally without sin would be foolish and also may qualify as the sin of pride.

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 05:01 AM
... At Church, on Wednesday evenings, we are studying Christianity 101 and the course text is the Letter to the Romans. For a long time now I have taught that this letter of Paul's is the Christian's Manifesto. As this letter is studied one cannot help but to arrive at Romans 6:1-8 and the inevitable question must be asked, “If this is true, why do we still stumble into sin?”
... The reason is because we are still carrying that sinful dead man around until the time that we are translated into Heaven. Life example, ok? Before I was saved I often appeared on stage with my guitar in a Honky Tonk, I planned to sin before the sun came up the next morning. As a Christian, because I know the affect that whiskey has on me I do not enjoy that drink any longer and as soon as I was aware of being overcome by the Holy Spirit, I literally walked off the stage and took my guitar home, leaving my night's pay right where it was. I, no longer, had a heart for seeking after the things of the night.
... I was instructed by Pastor and Missionary Richard Clark that a very good illustration of this condition was a practice used by the Romans to punish murders in parts of their empire. When the offender was caught, in the act or very soon after, they bound the body of the murdered person to the back of the murderer and the only escape from this was for the corpse to rot off your back without the disease and rot killing you. In like manor, as a Christian, we carry the burden of who and what we were until we are translated into Heaven. Unlike the murdered Roman, our old man will not rot away but if we remain in the Word of God, we can defeat the influence of the old man on ourselves.
We as children of God sin because we are immature.

The demonic teaching of the continuing practice of sin until death is false!
The scriptures clearly speak against it in 1 Peter 4:1-2 among many other places.

The opposition:
1 John 1:8 is badly translated.

Romans 7 is poorly applied.

manichunter
May 1st 2009, 05:05 AM
The proper biblical answer from someone in such a state would be that they are not aware of any sin.
The scriptures say, let everyone of you who is perfect have this attitude...
I believe to openly state that you are totally without sin would be foolish and also may qualify as the sin of pride.

Ancient Chinese proverb- No study torah, no knowledge of sins........... :lol: LOL

How do you how and what the pride of sin is......... It is one of those hated things of Yahweh, abominations............ (hated thing). Pride of life- stealing glory that belongs to God for yourself.

This is not directed towards you personally.

bagofseed
May 1st 2009, 05:54 AM
Love you too man.

I have learned what pride is because I have learned the meaning of the word.

I have seen examples.

I know God hates pride because His written word says so.

I know God hates pride because of who God is in His written word.

I am exposed by the work of His Spirit and the presence of God Himself, brought into the light.

Then my knowledge becomes understanding, and if I lacked any knowledge I do not any longer, because I now have experienced what I once had only read about.

In my exposure to God Himself I find that I am free.

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 12:44 PM
... If you will just stick to the point and stop trying to demonstrate your superiority this will be painless for you or it should.
... Okay, you haven't sinned for a long time so it is reasonable to assume that the orrect answer to my question was that you have not sinned this year or last year. Now, do you drive?


Certainly I drive.

Do you understand the biblical definition of sin?

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 12:59 PM
Uh........


1Co 10:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+10:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Absolutely, everyone needs to be watchful and take heed, lest their is a chance they could fall [sin].

The very next scripture sure does reveal the power of Almighty God though:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Nothing you are tempted with can overtake you and force you to sin. Sin is committed when one yields to temptation, whether in their mind or through action. You will never be suffered temptation above what you're able to resist, and that's straight from God's Word. For you to say that you can't resist temptation is a lie, for the word of God says differently.


1 John 1:8-10 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

You're absolutely right. You must understand that this is being addressed unto those who have not yet been saved.

Notice in verse 3:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously those in verse 8 did not have fellowship with the Christians, thus they were being warned that they needed a Savior to cleanse them from their guilt of sin. I'm sure you know who the Gnostics were. Plus to prove that Christians do not sin, read what John wrote in chapter 3:

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.



Romans 7:17-22
17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

What must be understood with this passage and many other passages is context. Thus you must read Romans 6, 7, and 8 together in order to understand this scripture text.

Although this is written in first person, Paul was describing his condition while UNDER THE LAW seeking righteousness when he was Saul. He testifies in I Thessalonians, that "Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:". In Romans 8:2, he said "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." So Paul was NOT a servant to sin.

This is the same author that wrote in chapter 6 complete deliverance FROM SIN.

“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.

Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” He joyfully answers this question in Rom. 8:2–“The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”

He was now free from the condemnation of sin because, through salvation, he was empowered to live free from committing sin. Hence, he could also go on to teach others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (I Cor. 15:34).

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 01:06 PM
Fascinating...when you say that you have not sinned, do you mean that because you are saved, your sins are not counted against you?

First, sin is imputed on a relative basis, not an absolute basis. Sin is imputed according to ones individual knowledge and understanding of right and wrong.

Sin is not temptation nor mistakes. Sin is disobedience; willful transgression against God’s laws (I John 3:4). It is doing what we know to be morally wrong or not doing what we know is right. “...to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17).

Willful ignorance is not excusable, as God knows the intent of our heart (Hebrews 4:12). Some of His laws are written on our heart, so even those who do not have access to the Bible are responsible to obey these laws (Romans 2:12-15).


Or are you actually claiming that you have not done or thought a single thing that God would find imperfect?:confused

The devil brings evil thoughts to our mind, thus it is my duty as a Christian to resist and cast it down immediately! The DEVIL is the one who tempts in the mind, but it is GOD who delivers:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

If I were to sin against God, I would no longer be a Christian, but rather a sinner that needs God's blood applied to my heart. Christ came to save sinners:

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Those who are already saved, Christ isn't here to save them again. Those who are saved have already been delivered from SIN. Thus they need the grace of God EVERYDAY in order to stay saved [sinless]. A holy life is a sinless life. The Bible teaches holiness.

THOM
May 1st 2009, 02:28 PM
... At Church, on Wednesday evenings, we are studying Christianity 101 and the course text is the Letter to the Romans. For a long time now I have taught that this letter of Paul's is the Christian's Manifesto. As this letter is studied one cannot help but to arrive at Romans 6:1-8 and the inevitable question must be asked, “If this is true, why do we still stumble into sin?”
... The reason is because we are still carrying that sinful dead man around until the time that we are translated into Heaven. Life example, ok? Before I was saved I often appeared on stage with my guitar in a Honky Tonk, I planned to sin before the sun came up the next morning. As a Christian, because I know the affect that whiskey has on me I do not enjoy that drink any longer and as soon as I was aware of being overcome by the Holy Spirit, I literally walked off the stage and took my guitar home, leaving my night's pay right where it was. I, no longer, had a heart for seeking after the things of the night.
... I was instructed by Pastor and Missionary Richard Clark that a very good illustration of this condition was a practice used by the Romans to punish murders in parts of their empire. When the offender was caught, in the act or very soon after, they bound the body of the murdered person to the back of the murderer and the only escape from this was for the corpse to rot off your back without the disease and rot killing you. In like manor, as a Christian, we carry the burden of who and what we were until we are translated into Heaven. Unlike the murdered Roman, our old man will not rot away but if we remain in the Word of God, we can defeat the influence of the old man on ourselves.

Hey th1bill, This is some GREAT Stuff. It cause me to shudder, when I imagine myself having to drag around rotting corpse.

And I've been given a lot of thought to your Thread's Subject, "Why do we sin". I'm certain that there are more, but 3 reasons come to mind:
1) We're born with the nature and/or propensity to sin;
2) As the Unsaved: We consciously decide to sin, and then/thus become a slave to sin;
3) As the Saved: As foul and as gross as it is walking around dragging a rotting corpse, its easier and for some, more desirable than walking in the newness of THE LIFE that we have been GIVEN.

Let me tell you how true #3 rings with me. When it became officially known that Lincoln had freed the slaves, some of my very own ancestors didn't know what to do with their freedom. . .and they choose instead to stay right where they had been before being given their freedom.

Thanks again for this Thread and Bless you and your entire house,
Thom,

-SEEKING-
May 1st 2009, 02:29 PM
If we say that we have no sin

Notice that John said WE, not YOU. And why would you assume that he wrote to unbelievers?

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 02:45 PM
Notice that John said WE, not YOU. And why would you assume that he wrote to unbelievers?

Because I John 3 declares that Christians do not sin, and:

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness [sin], we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If one is cleansed from ALL sin, no more sin remains. That includes the sin nature/adamic nature.

Using the word WE doesn't prove much for this very reason. Suppose I am writing letter to prisoners in jail and I state "We need to stop committing crimes!". "We" is not referring to ME specifically, I'm just using "WE" to include everyone who is being addressed, but I'm not a criminal, those being addressed are criminals.

Or for example I could go to work and ask a co-worker "How are WE feeling today?" I'm not asking MYSELF how I feel, but rather the other individual, but using the word WE.

Also it's known that he is speaking to those who have not yet been born again because:

John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).

John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:

“. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.

Also in my earlier post I showed that:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

These first verses were obviously directed unto those who did NOT have fellowship with the Christians, for they say "that YE may have fellowship with US [Christians], because OUR fellowship is with Christ."

-SEEKING-
May 1st 2009, 02:50 PM
For sure my WE example was a bad one. Hey man if you truly haven't sinned anymore then I salute you. I pray that God continue to strengthen you in your walk with Him.

th1bill
May 1st 2009, 05:39 PM
Certainly I drive.

Do you understand the biblical definition of sin?
... That is exactly where I am going.
... As a driver of a vehicle then are you telling me that you have never accidentally nor on purpose gone one mile over the speed limit? That you have never mistakenly parked in the wrong place? That you have never made an illegal turn without for knowledge? We are commanded, by God, to obey the laws of man when they do not attempt to supersede the Law. (Titus 3:1, 1Peter 2:13-17)

theBelovedDisciple
May 1st 2009, 06:06 PM
Romans 7.15-20 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

1 John 1.8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 5.18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

When we are raised to life in God (i.e., "born of God"), our sins are forgiven, and we are dead to sin. But sin continues to exist within us. It is not we, the sons of God* who sin, but it is the sin [noun] that is within us that sins [verb].

*Matthew 5.9, Romans 8.14, Romans 9.26, Galatians 3.26

good post! I agree 100%

faithfulfriend
May 1st 2009, 06:09 PM
... That is exactly where I am going.
... As a driver of a vehicle then are you telling me that you have never accidentally nor on purpose gone one mile over the speed limit? That you have never mistakenly parked in the wrong place? That you have never made an illegal turn without for knowledge? We are commanded, by God, to obey the laws of man when they do not attempt to supersede the Law. (Titus 3:1, 1Peter 2:13-17)


How exactly is going over the speed limit sin? If that is truly a sin, then why does the Bible say Christians do not sin? Thus if Christians do not sin, we must understand the difference between sin and humanity.

To begin with, I'm not Wesleyn, but his teaching understanding of the Word is correct.

Satan uses this thinking very much in order to blur the line between actual sin, and human mistakes, errors or shortcomings.

This is just a trick of the devil to get Christians to profess to be sinners so when temptations come the devil can tell them to go ahead as they are sinners any way. This way Satan blurs the line before faults and mistakes with willful acts of disobedience against known laws of God.

Under the old covenant there were sins of ignorance (Lev 4:2, 13, 22, 27, 5:15, 18) as the law was not written in their minds and or in their hearts as it is in the new covenant (Heb 10:16). Under the new covenant sin is rated by light and understanding (Joh 9:41; Rom 5:13; Rom 14:22,23; Jam 4:17).

One of the things that the devil wants a new Christian to do is hold that mistakes are sins and start to profess they are a sinner and start asking for forgiveness of their sins every day. Then the devil will set a trap for them. He will try to get them weak by getting them not to pray and read the scriptures and then will set them up for a fall by bringing a temptation when they are weak and when he tempts them will tell them they are a sinner any way, God understands we all sin, its the flesh that is sinning and you can’t help it and there by uses this vile teaching that all Christians sin and deceive and slay the new Christian.

Of course the new Christian is stuck with guilt and condemnation and will weep bitter over his fall. But when he goes for counsel the false Pastor will tell them, oh we all sin, Paul had problems with sin in Romans 7, and there is none righteous, our heart is deceitful and wicked, and we will have to wait until we get to heaven before we are free from sin.

You must stand hard against this false teaching of Sin-you-must and the Mistakes-are-sin teaching that mixes mistakes and sin into one group. When we are presented with this light properly and we continue to hold these false teachings we will be judged by God for those we lead into a sinning profession.

I have yet to meet one person that held the Mistakes-are-sin teaching that has keep their allowance of sin in their life to errors, faults, and mistakes. Most of the time the reason people don’t want to give up the Mistakes-are-sin teaching is because they are covering for the hidden willful sins in their own life.

When we go to the scriptures we quickly find that there is no place for sin in a Christian life what so ever.

John tells us that he wrote that they “sin not” (1Joh 2:1) and further noted in a number of other places in his letter that “whosoever abideth in him sinneth not” (1Joh 3:6), “he that committeth sin is of the devil” (1Joh 3:8), “whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin” (1Joh 3:9), and “we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not” (1Joh 5:18).

Further we have Jesus telling us “whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (Joh 8:34) and “no man can serve two masters” (Mat 6:24), Paul told Timothy “them that sin rebuke before all” (1Tim 5:20), and Peter talked about those “that cannot cease from sin” but he called them “cursed children” (2Pet 2:14).

Definition of sin: (The following not from me but a website)

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not — 1Jn 5:18

Faults, lacks in social deportment that may be offensive, and mistakes in opinion, judgment, and actions are not sins - unless they include a voluntary act of disobedience against a known commandment of God (1Joh 3:4; 5:17).

What may be sin for one person may not be sin for another due to difference in light and understanding of what God requires (Rom 14:22,23; Joh 9:41; Jam 4:17; Rom 3:20; 5:13). The position that mistakes are sin and therefore all believers are sinners will tend to lead people to the conclusion that willful acts of disobedience are compatible with salvation.

As the scriptures are very clear that whoever is born of God doesn’t sin (1John 2:3,4; 5:18). The view that Christians sin is not only unscriptural but harmful as it will weaken the believer’s resolve to resist all willful acts of disobedience.

John Wesley held and taught the position that sin was “an actual, voluntary transgression of the law; of the revealed, written law of God” (The Great Privilege of Those That Are Born of God section II.2) and that “even babes in Christ are so far perfect as not to commit sin” (Plain Account of Christian Perfection section 12.2).

The early Methodist leaders taught that under the new covenant sin is rated by light and understanding and where they is no law there is no sin. Further they taught that faults, errors, and mistakes in opinion and action were not sins as the will and temptation were not involved and they were compatible with love, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

The danger of the position that most Christians takes is that they mixes faults, errors, and mistakes in opinion with acts of willful sins calling both sin, thereby causing the Christian to profess to be a sinner, to daily confess his sins, and bow to the concept that he can’t live with out sin as we all know we will commit faults, errors, and mistakes in opinion and action.

This naming convention is faulty for the following reasons. 1) it is unbiblical as the new covenant scriptures clearly state that Christians don’t sin and whoever sins is not a Christian; 2) it uses the same name (sin) for two completely different acts, one that a Christian will do regularly (faults, errors and mistakes) and the other that they are completely saved from (willful sins); and 3) if faults and willful sins are both call sins and it is allowed that sins are consistent with the Christian experience many will not confine the sins they allow to faults.

While some many be able to operate under this system and keep involuntary transgressions (faults, errors, mistakes in opinion and action) separated from voluntary transgressions (what is called sin in under the new covenant) I have yet to hear or see anyone do it. They profess to be a sinner, and confess that they commit sin and nothing or little is said about what kind of sins.

Here is how John Wesley deals with this subject.

A Plain Account of Christian Perfection 19. Q5:
“(5.) The best of men still need Christ in his priestly office, to atone for their omissions, their short-comings, (as some not improperly speak,) their mistakes in judgment and practice, and their defects of various kinds. For these are all deviations from the perfect law, and consequently need an atonement. Yet that they are not properly sins, we apprehend may appear from the words of St. Paul, `He that loveth, hath fulfilled the law; for love is the fulfilling of the law.’ (Rom. 13:10.) Now, mistakes, and whatever infirmities necessarily flow from the corruptible state of the body, are noway contrary to love; nor therefore, in the Scripture sense, sin.

To explain myself a little farther on this head:

(1.) Not only sin, properly so called, (that is, a voluntary transgression of a known law,) but sin, improperly so called, (that is, an involuntary transgression of a divine law, known or unknown,) needs the atoning blood.

(2.) I believe there is no such perfection in this life as excludes these involuntary transgressions which I apprehend to be naturally consequent on the ignorance and mistakes inseparable from mortality.

(3.) Therefore sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should seem to contradict myself.

(4.) I believe, a person filled with the love of God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions.

(5.) Such transgressions you may call sins, if you please: I do not, for the reasons above-mentioned.

Q. What advice would you give to those that do, and those that do not, call them so?

A. Let those that do not call them sins, never think that themselves or any other persons are in such a state as that they can stand before infinite justice without a Mediator. This must argue either the deepest ignorance, or the highest arrogance and presumption.

Let those who do call them so, beware how they confound these defects with sins, properly so called. But how will they avoid it? How will these be distinguished from those, if they are all promiscuously called sins? I am much afraid, if we should allow any sins to be consistent with perfection, few would confine the idea to those defects concerning which only the assertion could be true.”

SeekerOfGod
May 2nd 2009, 01:28 AM
I always wondered why sins are so forgivable, no matter how bad of a thing you do.

Equipped_4_Love
May 2nd 2009, 06:01 AM
Those who sin and continue to sin are sinners and in fact not Christians.

Contrary to popular belief, an individual is NOT filled with the Holy Spirit when they are saved, but rather they are filled with the Holy Spirit in a second subsequent work of grace called Sanctification.

There is a difference between being indwelt and being filled. Upon salvation, every believer is indwelt, but the filling comes later.

th1bill
May 2nd 2009, 02:03 PM
Hey th1bill, This is some GREAT Stuff. It cause me to shudder, when I imagine myself having to drag around rotting corpse.

And I've been given a lot of thought to your Thread's Subject, "Why do we sin". I'm certain that there are more, but 3 reasons come to mind:
1) We're born with the nature and/or propensity to sin;
2) As the Unsaved: We consciously decide to sin, and then/thus become a slave to sin;
3) As the Saved: As foul and as gross as it is walking around dragging a rotting corpse, its easier and for some, more desirable than walking in the newness of THE LIFE that we have been GIVEN.

Let me tell you how true #3 rings with me. When it became officially known that Lincoln had freed the slaves, some of my very own ancestors didn't know what to do with their freedom. . .and they choose instead to stay right where they had been before being given their freedom.

Thanks again for this Thread and Bless you and your entire house,
Thom,
... And thank you for your thoughts, they are worthy of consideration.

VerticalReality
May 2nd 2009, 02:04 PM
Closed pending moderator review . . .

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