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Tomlane
May 2nd 2009, 12:17 PM
"SAVED BY "DRY BAPTISM"


BURIED "WITH" OR "LIKE"?

Sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was saved. Gal. 3:6-9; Romans. 4:1-13. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans. 10:9-10. The moment a convicted sinner calls upon the name of the Lord he becomes saved "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Of course, God is the One to determine whether or not the sinner is truly penitent and sincere in his call. When a sinner thus "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ" he is "crucified with Christ, ... Buried with Christ, ... Raised with Christ" and his new life is " hid with Christ in God." Gal. 2:20; Col. 2:10-12; 3:1-4; Rom. 6:1-5. Note very carefully that the Word of God says the Christian has been crucified WITH Christ, not LIKE Him. Exactly in the same miracle way in which the believing sinner has been "crucified with Christ" he has also been "buried with Christ." No where are we told to be buried LIKE Christ was in the waters of the Jordan but all Christians have been buried WITH Christ in His baptismal death. It is, of course, a miracle. And, by the way, why do not some of our religious imitators, who are so eagerly seeking to imitate Christ in His water baptism, try to imitate Him in His crucifixion?

All are only too ready to admit that "with" means just exactly "with" and not "like" when Paul says: "I am crucified with Christ," but when he says: "buried with Christ", then many are eager to get their sectarian followers to seek to imitate Christ's water baptism. This they do in spite of the plain fact that the apostle is speaking of Christ's burial in death and not His burial in the waters of Jordan. My friends, be well assured of this: Christianity is not our miserable imitation of the earthly life of Jesus of Nazareth as He lived His perfect life of law-keeping under Judaism, Christianity is the life we live after we have been created anew in Christ Jesus: the life of the indwelling Christ who move into all "broken and contrite hearts" the moment His glorious gospel of grace is humbly heard and honestly believed. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom. 5:19. In other words, Adam's disobedience made all of his children like their father, sinners. Now Christ's perfect, law-keeping obedience with His fulfillment of all the physical ordinances is passed on to all who receive Him. With His perfect heart and sinless flesh He obeyed all fleshly tests of character and then "became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Now, that is good news! It is THE good news! It is simply the "gospel of Jesus Christ." I have "obeyed the gospel." That is I have heard with submission, of Christ's perfect, substitutionary life, death, burial and resurrection. He not only died for me. He also lived for me. Therefore his law-keeping and ordinance-keeping obedience is put to my credit as well as His death-obedience. Thank God, as a new creature in Christ I am "complete in Him." Col. 2:10-12.

BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST

And how did I get into this glorious place of salvation and completeness "in Christ?" "With (or by) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and have been made to drink into one Spirit,: 1 Cor. 12:12-13. This is the same two-fold operation of the Holy Spirit as that referred to in Acts 2:38. The moment a sinner hears the gospel of Jesus Christ believing in the depths of his repentant heart, that moment he is "baptized in (or into) the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and he personally receives "the gift of the Holy Spirit." Christ is the One who baptizes him with the Spirit and the Father gives him the indwelling Spirit. John 14:16-17; Acts 10:38-46; John 1:33. What must we think any more of those who would say that there is no such thing any more as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit."? Will not the honest reading of these passages surely answer them? John 1:28-33; 3:27-30; Acts 1:5; 11:15-18; 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and Eph. 4:4-6; Phil. 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:16-17.

HOW CAN WE "OBEY THE GOSPEL"?

The Lord Jesus Christ referred to his death as a 'baptism'. Christ was baptized with water, anointed with the Holy Spirit (Lu. 3:16-22) and then, two or more years later, said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished." Lu. 12:50. How does it happen that today when a preacher announces he is going to speak on "The Baptism of Christ" it is supposed by nearly all religionists that water baptism is meant?"

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the 'good news' or glad tidings concerning what Christ did for the sinner and is not a system of fleshly commandments as to what the sinner must do for Christ. Paul said: "I delivered unto you the gospel ... how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day ... I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; unto the Jew first, and also unto the Greek (Gentile)." 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 1:16. Therefore, to 'obey the gospel' merely means to trust the perfect, finished work of Christ as you humbly and gratefully believe God's record that "Christ has once suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit." 1 Pet. 3:18. Paul wrote the Ephesian saints reminding them of the fact that they were saved when they "trusted in Christ. In whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ... For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 1:12-13; 2:8-10.

CHRIST'S BAPTISM ON THE CROSS

Surely every honest reader is convinced that the "baptism that saves us ..." does not have a drop of water in it. It is the miraculous baptism that Christ endured for us and that is put to our credit when Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, thereby uniting us to Himself and everything in the way of law-keeping and ordinance-keeping righteousness, that He fulfilled for us. If you have not already, will you just here and now throw up your hands of rebellion and gratefully receive, by faith, the glorious work the Lord of Glory came to do for us sinners? Just think of the glorious privilege of being instantly accepted in the Beloved, of being miraculously clothed with the righteousness of Christ which is "unto all and upon all them that believe." "He that believes not shall be damned." Mark 16:16. "Why will ye die?"

WHEN WAS CHRIST SLAIN?

As plainly as God can say it we are told that sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was. "The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify (save) the gentiles through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Gal. 3:6-9; Rom. 4:1-12. The Campbellites and other cults that deny "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ" ignorantly seek to make the Bible teach two plans of salvation of the sinner. Their preachers demand the right to act as "priests" who must baptize the sinner in water and then and there place him in "The Church of Christ" or - sect. Since these modern "daughters of Rome" are willing to grant salvation to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David and others who lived and died before the cross they are forced to manufacture at least two plans of saving members of Adam's fallen family. By jerking verses away from their context they are enabled to "deceive the hearts of the simple" with their "good words and fair speeches". Rom. 16:17-18. But those who humbly read the two epistles that are written to give us the great underlying doctrines of "justification by faith" learn to their heart's delight that God gave the covenant of salvation through faith to Abraham 'four hundred and thirty years before the "works covenant" (law and physical ordinances) was given to Moses; and that God confirmed that "covenant of promise" to Abraham IN CHRIST nineteen hundred years before Christ actually came to this world to literally die. In these two "salvation epistles", Romans and Galatians, water baptism is not once mentioned. (See above paragraph entitled Buried "With" or "Like"? This disgraceful "water-salvation" doctrine is but the teaching of "new gods newly come up." Deut. 32:17. Though sin did not enter until Adam's disobedience had made the whole future family "sinners" (Rom. 5:17-19 our Gracious God Who "knew the end from the beginning" "foreordained from before the foundation of the world" that Christ as "the Lamb of God" should appear in the fullness of time to "take away the sins of the world". Thus it is said that Spirit taught Christians do not butcher God's plan of salvation by a carnal study of man's calendar as to the exact date when the body of our Blessed Lord was actually nailed to the cross for we are taught to "behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of world", "slain from the foundation of the world", "foreordained from before the foundation of the world." John 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18-20; Rev. 13:8.

ONLY ONE CROSS FOR ALL DISPENSATIONS

Now it is quite true that God has different ages and dispensations and different programs with people but none of the dispensational or racial differences in any way affect the "gospel of Christ" that was foreordained for the salvation of any member of Adam's family that would "call upon the name of the Lord". Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13; Acts 10:43; 15:10-11; 13:38-39. (Please honestly read these.) Though all penitent believers in Christ have His death baptism and His burial and resurrection put to their credit, I believe the Scriptures teach that only since Pentecost (Acts 2) have believers been baptized by the Lord "with one Spirit into one body." 1 Cor. 12:13. The difference between salvation from the penalty of sin and the rewards held out for faithful Christians, is another difference that none of the "water-salvation" cults observe. I will give but one text here. 1 Cor 3:11-15.

CHRIST'S LIFE WAS "THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW"

How plain this is to every unspoiled mind that the only good works that a human being can possibly do always follow his being "created anew in Christ Jesus." Water baptism is either a righteous act or it is an unrighteous act. In Matt. 3:15 Christ calls water baptism an act of righteousness. (See Titus 3:5) Now, all Bible students who have any intelligent conception of "rightly dividing the Word of truth" know that Christ's earthly life was "Made of a woman, made under the law to redeem them that were under the law." Gal. 4:4-5; Rom. 15:8. Likewise, Bible students who have any clear conception of God's different dispensations know that Christ lived for thirty years as a private, law keeping Jew for He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." Matt. 5:17. Oh how few people seem to recognize that no one but Christ ever did keep the law with its God-given system of physical ordinances, its "meats and drinks and divers washings (different baptisms), and carnal ordinances, imposed on them (Jews) until the time of reformation." Heb. 9:8-10. And it was because Christ was born of a Jewish virgin under the law and the Jewish ordinances and came to "fulfill' them that His Heavenly Father never publicly endorsed Him until He had fulfilled ALL of the DEMANDS of that system of "meats and drinks and baptisms." You remember that it was immediately after Christ was baptized in the River Jordan that the voice came from heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Matt. 3:13-17.

In other words, when He had gotten John to baptize Him with water, Christ had "fulfilled" the very last righteous act demanded by the law and its physical ordinances. John the Baptist was the foreordained one to thus baptize Christ so that Israel would know their Messiah and King. And don't forget, that is exactly why Christ was baptized in water, namely, "to fulfill all righteousness" and in order to "be made manifest to Israel." Matt. 3:14-17; John 1:31. When we thus clearly see that Christ's life for thirty years (Lu. 3:23) was lived in, perfect obedience to the law and its physical ordinances we can then begin to see what we have when we, by faith, receive Christ. We have nothing less than the perfect "righteousness of the law" for "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every that believes." Rom. 10:1-3. Thus, it is that, without our having taken one single step in our vain efforts to keep the law or fulfill its physical ordinances with our weak and sinful flesh, we have put our credit every righteous act that Christ performed during those thirty years of his righteous life lived in perfect, sinless flesh. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:2-4. There it is. The repentant sinner, by believing the gospel of Christ, has a miracle performed in his heart. All of the "righteousness of the law" that Christ lived in His perfect flesh and blood life is instantly put to the credit of the trusting sinner without his making any effort whatsoever to "walk after the flesh," or try to keep any fleshly tests of character.

ALL JEWISH RELIGION EXTENDED BEYOND THE CROSS

The God-given commands for testing the corrupt flesh of Adam's race were allowed to continue long after Christ had fulfilled them all, however, for though Christ had nailed fleshly tests to the cross as He died for us law-breakers (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:6-17), still it pleased God to allow the Jewish temple to be left standing in Jerusalem and to allow even the Christian Jews to continue practicing all of the Jewish religion including circumcision, head-shaving and blood sacrifices along with the "divers baptisms." Acts 16:3; 18:18; 21:18-26; 1 Cor. 9:19-22. Apparently, God allowed this system of Jewish ordinances to be practiced about thirty years after Christ fulfilled it because, in His patience, God only gradually showed the Jews how it was that His program was changing. But, as careful spiritual students have noticed, about the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Corinthians, God was "closing the books," as it were, on all fleshly tests (physical ordinances. How clear this is from 2 Cor. 5:16-17: "Henceforth (from now on) know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (we knew Christ as Jesus of Nazareth, the properly circumcised Jewish law-keeper, etc.), yet now henceforth, know we him no more. Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Thus it was that after God had slowly led the Christians out of Jewish religion He and Paul finally write these glorious, liberating truths. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:10-17.

Let us who are saved remember well that water baptism is an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled. Matt. 3:15. And that the righteousness is put to our credit when we receive Christ as our personal Savior and Lord. Rom. 10:4. "For not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy has he saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit ... But, let us who ARE saved be careful to maintain good works ..." Titus 3:5-8. This we should do out of love and gratitude to Him Who has so wondrously saved us and made us righteous in Christ.

Maurice Johnson
(1893-1979)

http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/ContentMMJtextvers.htm

kenramse
May 2nd 2009, 08:57 PM
A reply to this post, a sermon by Maurice Johnson, is best done by providing a link to an archive of many messages, pamphlets and articles that he produced during the time he lived and spoke.

I do not present this link as a means of supporting this person but to provide all who would read the post by Tomlane. It is better to see a more exhaustive presentation of this man's works and to make a judgement for yourselves.

http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/index.html#Archives

I feel it is best that we do as the Bereans and examine this man's work according to scriptures:

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Teke
May 2nd 2009, 10:03 PM
I'm not really interested in what new doctrines man can come up with. Either they are following Jesus and Him alone, or they are not. The site clearly states they are presenting "new doctrine". IOW it's another telemarket call.:(

Tomlane
May 2nd 2009, 10:32 PM
kenramse, thank you for the wonderful suggestion. I think we can get many spirited debates with Mr Johnson's messages and studies.

I had the privilege of meeting Maurice Johnston when I was fresh out of high school and a new comer in Texas and passed out tracts with him one afternoon. Maurice walked the talk and his reputation was spotless and I have never met a man of God any more in love with Christ and His word then this man. The results of his ministry were outstanding. I won't go further into his accomplishments so as not to glorify the man other then to say they were Christ honoring. All the glory belongs to Christ working in us.

So Kenramse it would be a delight to take anyone's replies and compare them to God's word on here.

Thanks again for your suggestions and I also agree we need to examine Maurice Johnston's positions to see if they are of God and honoring to Christ. Maurice would have agreed completely.

1 John 4:1 *¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 *Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 *And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Tomlane

Butch5
May 2nd 2009, 10:45 PM
"SAVED BY "DRY BAPTISM"



BURIED "WITH" OR "LIKE"?

Sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was saved. Gal. 3:6-9; Romans. 4:1-13. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans. 10:9-10. The moment a convicted sinner calls upon the name of the Lord he becomes saved "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Of course, God is the One to determine whether or not the sinner is truly penitent and sincere in his call. When a sinner thus "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ" he is "crucified with Christ, ... Buried with Christ, ... Raised with Christ" and his new life is " hid with Christ in God." Gal. 2:20; Col. 2:10-12; 3:1-4; Rom. 6:1-5. Note very carefully that the Word of God says the Christian has been crucified WITH Christ, not LIKE Him. Exactly in the same miracle way in which the believing sinner has been "crucified with Christ" he has also been "buried with Christ." No where are we told to be buried LIKE Christ was in the waters of the Jordan but all Christians have been buried WITH Christ in His baptismal death. It is, of course, a miracle. And, by the way, why do not some of our religious imitators, who are so eagerly seeking to imitate Christ in His water baptism, try to imitate Him in His crucifixion?

All are only too ready to admit that "with" means just exactly "with" and not "like" when Paul says: "I am crucified with Christ," but when he says: "buried with Christ", then many are eager to get their sectarian followers to seek to imitate Christ's water baptism. This they do in spite of the plain fact that the apostle is speaking of Christ's burial in death and not His burial in the waters of Jordan. My friends, be well assured of this: Christianity is not our miserable imitation of the earthly life of Jesus of Nazareth as He lived His perfect life of law-keeping under Judaism, Christianity is the life we live after we have been created anew in Christ Jesus: the life of the indwelling Christ who move into all "broken and contrite hearts" the moment His glorious gospel of grace is humbly heard and honestly believed. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom. 5:19. In other words, Adam's disobedience made all of his children like their father, sinners. Now Christ's perfect, law-keeping obedience with His fulfillment of all the physical ordinances is passed on to all who receive Him. With His perfect heart and sinless flesh He obeyed all fleshly tests of character and then "became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Now, that is good news! It is THE good news! It is simply the "gospel of Jesus Christ." I have "obeyed the gospel." That is I have heard with submission, of Christ's perfect, substitutionary life, death, burial and resurrection. He not only died for me. He also lived for me. Therefore his law-keeping and ordinance-keeping obedience is put to my credit as well as His death-obedience. Thank God, as a new creature in Christ I am "complete in Him." Col. 2:10-12.

BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST

And how did I get into this glorious place of salvation and completeness "in Christ?" "With (or by) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and have been made to drink into one Spirit,: 1 Cor. 12:12-13. This is the same two-fold operation of the Holy Spirit as that referred to in Acts 2:38. The moment a sinner hears the gospel of Jesus Christ believing in the depths of his repentant heart, that moment he is "baptized in (or into) the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and he personally receives "the gift of the Holy Spirit." Christ is the One who baptizes him with the Spirit and the Father gives him the indwelling Spirit. John 14:16-17; Acts 10:38-46; John 1:33. What must we think any more of those who would say that there is no such thing any more as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit."? Will not the honest reading of these passages surely answer them? John 1:28-33; 3:27-30; Acts 1:5; 11:15-18; 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and Eph. 4:4-6; Phil. 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:16-17.

HOW CAN WE "OBEY THE GOSPEL"?

The Lord Jesus Christ referred to his death as a 'baptism'. Christ was baptized with water, anointed with the Holy Spirit (Lu. 3:16-22) and then, two or more years later, said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished." Lu. 12:50. How does it happen that today when a preacher announces he is going to speak on "The Baptism of Christ" it is supposed by nearly all religionists that water baptism is meant?"

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the 'good news' or glad tidings concerning what Christ did for the sinner and is not a system of fleshly commandments as to what the sinner must do for Christ. Paul said: "I delivered unto you the gospel ... how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day ... I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; unto the Jew first, and also unto the Greek (Gentile)." 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 1:16. Therefore, to 'obey the gospel' merely means to trust the perfect, finished work of Christ as you humbly and gratefully believe God's record that "Christ has once suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit." 1 Pet. 3:18. Paul wrote the Ephesian saints reminding them of the fact that they were saved when they "trusted in Christ. In whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ... For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 1:12-13; 2:8-10.

CHRIST'S BAPTISM ON THE CROSS

Surely every honest reader is convinced that the "baptism that saves us ..." does not have a drop of water in it. It is the miraculous baptism that Christ endured for us and that is put to our credit when Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, thereby uniting us to Himself and everything in the way of law-keeping and ordinance-keeping righteousness, that He fulfilled for us. If you have not already, will you just here and now throw up your hands of rebellion and gratefully receive, by faith, the glorious work the Lord of Glory came to do for us sinners? Just think of the glorious privilege of being instantly accepted in the Beloved, of being miraculously clothed with the righteousness of Christ which is "unto all and upon all them that believe." "He that believes not shall be damned." Mark 16:16. "Why will ye die?"

WHEN WAS CHRIST SLAIN?

As plainly as God can say it we are told that sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was. "The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify (save) the gentiles through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Gal. 3:6-9; Rom. 4:1-12. The Campbellites and other cults that deny "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ" ignorantly seek to make the Bible teach two plans of salvation of the sinner. Their preachers demand the right to act as "priests" who must baptize the sinner in water and then and there place him in "The Church of Christ" or - sect. Since these modern "daughters of Rome" are willing to grant salvation to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David and others who lived and died before the cross they are forced to manufacture at least two plans of saving members of Adam's fallen family. By jerking verses away from their context they are enabled to "deceive the hearts of the simple" with their "good words and fair speeches". Rom. 16:17-18. But those who humbly read the two epistles that are written to give us the great underlying doctrines of "justification by faith" learn to their heart's delight that God gave the covenant of salvation through faith to Abraham 'four hundred and thirty years before the "works covenant" (law and physical ordinances) was given to Moses; and that God confirmed that "covenant of promise" to Abraham IN CHRIST nineteen hundred years before Christ actually came to this world to literally die. In these two "salvation epistles", Romans and Galatians, water baptism is not once mentioned. (See above paragraph entitled Buried "With" or "Like"? This disgraceful "water-salvation" doctrine is but the teaching of "new gods newly come up." Deut. 32:17. Though sin did not enter until Adam's disobedience had made the whole future family "sinners" (Rom. 5:17-19 our Gracious God Who "knew the end from the beginning" "foreordained from before the foundation of the world" that Christ as "the Lamb of God" should appear in the fullness of time to "take away the sins of the world". Thus it is said that Spirit taught Christians do not butcher God's plan of salvation by a carnal study of man's calendar as to the exact date when the body of our Blessed Lord was actually nailed to the cross for we are taught to "behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of world", "slain from the foundation of the world", "foreordained from before the foundation of the world." John 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18-20; Rev. 13:8.

ONLY ONE CROSS FOR ALL DISPENSATIONS

Now it is quite true that God has different ages and dispensations and different programs with people but none of the dispensational or racial differences in any way affect the "gospel of Christ" that was foreordained for the salvation of any member of Adam's family that would "call upon the name of the Lord". Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13; Acts 10:43; 15:10-11; 13:38-39. (Please honestly read these.) Though all penitent believers in Christ have His death baptism and His burial and resurrection put to their credit, I believe the Scriptures teach that only since Pentecost (Acts 2) have believers been baptized by the Lord "with one Spirit into one body." 1 Cor. 12:13. The difference between salvation from the penalty of sin and the rewards held out for faithful Christians, is another difference that none of the "water-salvation" cults observe. I will give but one text here. 1 Cor 3:11-15.

CHRIST'S LIFE WAS "THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW"

How plain this is to every unspoiled mind that the only good works that a human being can possibly do always follow his being "created anew in Christ Jesus." Water baptism is either a righteous act or it is an unrighteous act. In Matt. 3:15 Christ calls water baptism an act of righteousness. (See Titus 3:5) Now, all Bible students who have any intelligent conception of "rightly dividing the Word of truth" know that Christ's earthly life was "Made of a woman, made under the law to redeem them that were under the law." Gal. 4:4-5; Rom. 15:8. Likewise, Bible students who have any clear conception of God's different dispensations know that Christ lived for thirty years as a private, law keeping Jew for He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." Matt. 5:17. Oh how few people seem to recognize that no one but Christ ever did keep the law with its God-given system of physical ordinances, its "meats and drinks and divers washings (different baptisms), and carnal ordinances, imposed on them (Jews) until the time of reformation." Heb. 9:8-10. And it was because Christ was born of a Jewish virgin under the law and the Jewish ordinances and came to "fulfill' them that His Heavenly Father never publicly endorsed Him until He had fulfilled ALL of the DEMANDS of that system of "meats and drinks and baptisms." You remember that it was immediately after Christ was baptized in the River Jordan that the voice came from heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Matt. 3:13-17.

In other words, when He had gotten John to baptize Him with water, Christ had "fulfilled" the very last righteous act demanded by the law and its physical ordinances. John the Baptist was the foreordained one to thus baptize Christ so that Israel would know their Messiah and King. And don't forget, that is exactly why Christ was baptized in water, namely, "to fulfill all righteousness" and in order to "be made manifest to Israel." Matt. 3:14-17; John 1:31. When we thus clearly see that Christ's life for thirty years (Lu. 3:23) was lived in, perfect obedience to the law and its physical ordinances we can then begin to see what we have when we, by faith, receive Christ. We have nothing less than the perfect "righteousness of the law" for "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every that believes." Rom. 10:1-3. Thus, it is that, without our having taken one single step in our vain efforts to keep the law or fulfill its physical ordinances with our weak and sinful flesh, we have put our credit every righteous act that Christ performed during those thirty years of his righteous life lived in perfect, sinless flesh. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:2-4. There it is. The repentant sinner, by believing the gospel of Christ, has a miracle performed in his heart. All of the "righteousness of the law" that Christ lived in His perfect flesh and blood life is instantly put to the credit of the trusting sinner without his making any effort whatsoever to "walk after the flesh," or try to keep any fleshly tests of character.

ALL JEWISH RELIGION EXTENDED BEYOND THE CROSS

The God-given commands for testing the corrupt flesh of Adam's race were allowed to continue long after Christ had fulfilled them all, however, for though Christ had nailed fleshly tests to the cross as He died for us law-breakers (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:6-17), still it pleased God to allow the Jewish temple to be left standing in Jerusalem and to allow even the Christian Jews to continue practicing all of the Jewish religion including circumcision, head-shaving and blood sacrifices along with the "divers baptisms." Acts 16:3; 18:18; 21:18-26; 1 Cor. 9:19-22. Apparently, God allowed this system of Jewish ordinances to be practiced about thirty years after Christ fulfilled it because, in His patience, God only gradually showed the Jews how it was that His program was changing. But, as careful spiritual students have noticed, about the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Corinthians, God was "closing the books," as it were, on all fleshly tests (physical ordinances. How clear this is from 2 Cor. 5:16-17: "Henceforth (from now on) know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (we knew Christ as Jesus of Nazareth, the properly circumcised Jewish law-keeper, etc.), yet now henceforth, know we him no more. Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Thus it was that after God had slowly led the Christians out of Jewish religion He and Paul finally write these glorious, liberating truths. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:10-17.

Let us who are saved remember well that water baptism is an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled. Matt. 3:15. And that the righteousness is put to our credit when we receive Christ as our personal Savior and Lord. Rom. 10:4. "For not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy has he saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit ... But, let us who ARE saved be careful to maintain good works ..." Titus 3:5-8. This we should do out of love and gratitude to Him Who has so wondrously saved us and made us righteous in Christ.

Maurice Johnson
(1893-1979)

http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/ContentMMJtextvers.htm


Tomlane,

I only got to the second sentence before I found error.


The moment a convicted sinner calls upon the name of the Lord he becomes saved "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

He claims the moment a person believes, he is saved. However the verse he quotes in support does not say that. The verse says whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, "shall be saved." "Shall be saved" is future to "calls upon the name of the Lord", therefore the verse does not say the moment one believes he is saved.

crossnote
May 3rd 2009, 06:37 AM
Tomlane,

I only got to the second sentence before I found error.



He claims the moment a person believes, he is saved. However the verse he quotes in support does not say that. The verse says whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, "shall be saved." "Shall be saved" is future to "calls upon the name of the Lord", therefore the verse does not say the moment one believes he is saved.

Don't get me wrong I am not defending the long article posted but I do have questions on your assertion. It sounds as if you are saying that a person is not saved when they truly believe but shall be saved. Do you agree that a believer has passed from death to Life through believing in Christ? Do you believe that they are now sons of God? Do you believe we have been saved not by our works but by His mercy?

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 5:24)

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
(Gal 4:6)

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
(Tit 3:5)

It's true that there is a future sense in redemption, especially our bodies, but can you really deny salvation as an accomplished fact as well?

Firstfruits
May 3rd 2009, 10:59 AM
"SAVED BY "DRY BAPTISM"



BURIED "WITH" OR "LIKE"?

Sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was saved. Gal. 3:6-9; Romans. 4:1-13. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans. 10:9-10. The moment a convicted sinner calls upon the name of the Lord he becomes saved "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Of course, God is the One to determine whether or not the sinner is truly penitent and sincere in his call. When a sinner thus "believes on the Lord Jesus Christ" he is "crucified with Christ, ... Buried with Christ, ... Raised with Christ" and his new life is " hid with Christ in God." Gal. 2:20; Col. 2:10-12; 3:1-4; Rom. 6:1-5. Note very carefully that the Word of God says the Christian has been crucified WITH Christ, not LIKE Him. Exactly in the same miracle way in which the believing sinner has been "crucified with Christ" he has also been "buried with Christ." No where are we told to be buried LIKE Christ was in the waters of the Jordan but all Christians have been buried WITH Christ in His baptismal death. It is, of course, a miracle. And, by the way, why do not some of our religious imitators, who are so eagerly seeking to imitate Christ in His water baptism, try to imitate Him in His crucifixion?

All are only too ready to admit that "with" means just exactly "with" and not "like" when Paul says: "I am crucified with Christ," but when he says: "buried with Christ", then many are eager to get their sectarian followers to seek to imitate Christ's water baptism. This they do in spite of the plain fact that the apostle is speaking of Christ's burial in death and not His burial in the waters of Jordan. My friends, be well assured of this: Christianity is not our miserable imitation of the earthly life of Jesus of Nazareth as He lived His perfect life of law-keeping under Judaism, Christianity is the life we live after we have been created anew in Christ Jesus: the life of the indwelling Christ who move into all "broken and contrite hearts" the moment His glorious gospel of grace is humbly heard and honestly believed. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom. 5:19. In other words, Adam's disobedience made all of his children like their father, sinners. Now Christ's perfect, law-keeping obedience with His fulfillment of all the physical ordinances is passed on to all who receive Him. With His perfect heart and sinless flesh He obeyed all fleshly tests of character and then "became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Now, that is good news! It is THE good news! It is simply the "gospel of Jesus Christ." I have "obeyed the gospel." That is I have heard with submission, of Christ's perfect, substitutionary life, death, burial and resurrection. He not only died for me. He also lived for me. Therefore his law-keeping and ordinance-keeping obedience is put to my credit as well as His death-obedience. Thank God, as a new creature in Christ I am "complete in Him." Col. 2:10-12.

BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST

And how did I get into this glorious place of salvation and completeness "in Christ?" "With (or by) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, bond or free, and have been made to drink into one Spirit,: 1 Cor. 12:12-13. This is the same two-fold operation of the Holy Spirit as that referred to in Acts 2:38. The moment a sinner hears the gospel of Jesus Christ believing in the depths of his repentant heart, that moment he is "baptized in (or into) the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" and he personally receives "the gift of the Holy Spirit." Christ is the One who baptizes him with the Spirit and the Father gives him the indwelling Spirit. John 14:16-17; Acts 10:38-46; John 1:33. What must we think any more of those who would say that there is no such thing any more as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit."? Will not the honest reading of these passages surely answer them? John 1:28-33; 3:27-30; Acts 1:5; 11:15-18; 1 Cor. 12:12-13 and Eph. 4:4-6; Phil. 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:16-17.

HOW CAN WE "OBEY THE GOSPEL"?

The Lord Jesus Christ referred to his death as a 'baptism'. Christ was baptized with water, anointed with the Holy Spirit (Lu. 3:16-22) and then, two or more years later, said "I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished." Lu. 12:50. How does it happen that today when a preacher announces he is going to speak on "The Baptism of Christ" it is supposed by nearly all religionists that water baptism is meant?"

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the 'good news' or glad tidings concerning what Christ did for the sinner and is not a system of fleshly commandments as to what the sinner must do for Christ. Paul said: "I delivered unto you the gospel ... how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day ... I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; unto the Jew first, and also unto the Greek (Gentile)." 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Rom. 1:16. Therefore, to 'obey the gospel' merely means to trust the perfect, finished work of Christ as you humbly and gratefully believe God's record that "Christ has once suffered for our sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive) by the Spirit." 1 Pet. 3:18. Paul wrote the Ephesian saints reminding them of the fact that they were saved when they "trusted in Christ. In whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ... For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 1:12-13; 2:8-10.

CHRIST'S BAPTISM ON THE CROSS

Surely every honest reader is convinced that the "baptism that saves us ..." does not have a drop of water in it. It is the miraculous baptism that Christ endured for us and that is put to our credit when Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, thereby uniting us to Himself and everything in the way of law-keeping and ordinance-keeping righteousness, that He fulfilled for us. If you have not already, will you just here and now throw up your hands of rebellion and gratefully receive, by faith, the glorious work the Lord of Glory came to do for us sinners? Just think of the glorious privilege of being instantly accepted in the Beloved, of being miraculously clothed with the righteousness of Christ which is "unto all and upon all them that believe." "He that believes not shall be damned." Mark 16:16. "Why will ye die?"

WHEN WAS CHRIST SLAIN?

As plainly as God can say it we are told that sinners are saved today exactly like Abraham was. "The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify (save) the gentiles through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Gal. 3:6-9; Rom. 4:1-12. The Campbellites and other cults that deny "the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ" ignorantly seek to make the Bible teach two plans of salvation of the sinner. Their preachers demand the right to act as "priests" who must baptize the sinner in water and then and there place him in "The Church of Christ" or - sect. Since these modern "daughters of Rome" are willing to grant salvation to Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, David and others who lived and died before the cross they are forced to manufacture at least two plans of saving members of Adam's fallen family. By jerking verses away from their context they are enabled to "deceive the hearts of the simple" with their "good words and fair speeches". Rom. 16:17-18. But those who humbly read the two epistles that are written to give us the great underlying doctrines of "justification by faith" learn to their heart's delight that God gave the covenant of salvation through faith to Abraham 'four hundred and thirty years before the "works covenant" (law and physical ordinances) was given to Moses; and that God confirmed that "covenant of promise" to Abraham IN CHRIST nineteen hundred years before Christ actually came to this world to literally die. In these two "salvation epistles", Romans and Galatians, water baptism is not once mentioned. (See above paragraph entitled Buried "With" or "Like"? This disgraceful "water-salvation" doctrine is but the teaching of "new gods newly come up." Deut. 32:17. Though sin did not enter until Adam's disobedience had made the whole future family "sinners" (Rom. 5:17-19 our Gracious God Who "knew the end from the beginning" "foreordained from before the foundation of the world" that Christ as "the Lamb of God" should appear in the fullness of time to "take away the sins of the world". Thus it is said that Spirit taught Christians do not butcher God's plan of salvation by a carnal study of man's calendar as to the exact date when the body of our Blessed Lord was actually nailed to the cross for we are taught to "behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of world", "slain from the foundation of the world", "foreordained from before the foundation of the world." John 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18-20; Rev. 13:8.

ONLY ONE CROSS FOR ALL DISPENSATIONS

Now it is quite true that God has different ages and dispensations and different programs with people but none of the dispensational or racial differences in any way affect the "gospel of Christ" that was foreordained for the salvation of any member of Adam's family that would "call upon the name of the Lord". Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Rom. 10:13; Acts 10:43; 15:10-11; 13:38-39. (Please honestly read these.) Though all penitent believers in Christ have His death baptism and His burial and resurrection put to their credit, I believe the Scriptures teach that only since Pentecost (Acts 2) have believers been baptized by the Lord "with one Spirit into one body." 1 Cor. 12:13. The difference between salvation from the penalty of sin and the rewards held out for faithful Christians, is another difference that none of the "water-salvation" cults observe. I will give but one text here. 1 Cor 3:11-15.

CHRIST'S LIFE WAS "THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW"

How plain this is to every unspoiled mind that the only good works that a human being can possibly do always follow his being "created anew in Christ Jesus." Water baptism is either a righteous act or it is an unrighteous act. In Matt. 3:15 Christ calls water baptism an act of righteousness. (See Titus 3:5) Now, all Bible students who have any intelligent conception of "rightly dividing the Word of truth" know that Christ's earthly life was "Made of a woman, made under the law to redeem them that were under the law." Gal. 4:4-5; Rom. 15:8. Likewise, Bible students who have any clear conception of God's different dispensations know that Christ lived for thirty years as a private, law keeping Jew for He said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill." Matt. 5:17. Oh how few people seem to recognize that no one but Christ ever did keep the law with its God-given system of physical ordinances, its "meats and drinks and divers washings (different baptisms), and carnal ordinances, imposed on them (Jews) until the time of reformation." Heb. 9:8-10. And it was because Christ was born of a Jewish virgin under the law and the Jewish ordinances and came to "fulfill' them that His Heavenly Father never publicly endorsed Him until He had fulfilled ALL of the DEMANDS of that system of "meats and drinks and baptisms." You remember that it was immediately after Christ was baptized in the River Jordan that the voice came from heaven saying: "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Matt. 3:13-17.

In other words, when He had gotten John to baptize Him with water, Christ had "fulfilled" the very last righteous act demanded by the law and its physical ordinances. John the Baptist was the foreordained one to thus baptize Christ so that Israel would know their Messiah and King. And don't forget, that is exactly why Christ was baptized in water, namely, "to fulfill all righteousness" and in order to "be made manifest to Israel." Matt. 3:14-17; John 1:31. When we thus clearly see that Christ's life for thirty years (Lu. 3:23) was lived in, perfect obedience to the law and its physical ordinances we can then begin to see what we have when we, by faith, receive Christ. We have nothing less than the perfect "righteousness of the law" for "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every that believes." Rom. 10:1-3. Thus, it is that, without our having taken one single step in our vain efforts to keep the law or fulfill its physical ordinances with our weak and sinful flesh, we have put our credit every righteous act that Christ performed during those thirty years of his righteous life lived in perfect, sinless flesh. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom. 8:2-4. There it is. The repentant sinner, by believing the gospel of Christ, has a miracle performed in his heart. All of the "righteousness of the law" that Christ lived in His perfect flesh and blood life is instantly put to the credit of the trusting sinner without his making any effort whatsoever to "walk after the flesh," or try to keep any fleshly tests of character.

ALL JEWISH RELIGION EXTENDED BEYOND THE CROSS

The God-given commands for testing the corrupt flesh of Adam's race were allowed to continue long after Christ had fulfilled them all, however, for though Christ had nailed fleshly tests to the cross as He died for us law-breakers (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:6-17), still it pleased God to allow the Jewish temple to be left standing in Jerusalem and to allow even the Christian Jews to continue practicing all of the Jewish religion including circumcision, head-shaving and blood sacrifices along with the "divers baptisms." Acts 16:3; 18:18; 21:18-26; 1 Cor. 9:19-22. Apparently, God allowed this system of Jewish ordinances to be practiced about thirty years after Christ fulfilled it because, in His patience, God only gradually showed the Jews how it was that His program was changing. But, as careful spiritual students have noticed, about the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Corinthians, God was "closing the books," as it were, on all fleshly tests (physical ordinances. How clear this is from 2 Cor. 5:16-17: "Henceforth (from now on) know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (we knew Christ as Jesus of Nazareth, the properly circumcised Jewish law-keeper, etc.), yet now henceforth, know we him no more. Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Thus it was that after God had slowly led the Christians out of Jewish religion He and Paul finally write these glorious, liberating truths. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Col. 2:10-17.

Let us who are saved remember well that water baptism is an act of righteousness that Christ fulfilled. Matt. 3:15. And that the righteousness is put to our credit when we receive Christ as our personal Savior and Lord. Rom. 10:4. "For not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy has he saved us by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit ... But, let us who ARE saved be careful to maintain good works ..." Titus 3:5-8. This we should do out of love and gratitude to Him Who has so wondrously saved us and made us righteous in Christ.

Maurice Johnson
(1893-1979)

http://www.mauricejohnsonarchives.com/ContentMMJtextvers.htm

Has the doctrine of the Apostles changed?

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 8:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Firstfruits

Veretax
May 3rd 2009, 12:02 PM
Has the doctrine of the Apostles changed?

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 8:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Firstfruits


The sign of the HS coming upon Cornelius's household before water was administered, and in Samaria I think it was when James baptized many but they did not receive the HS till Peter and John came, is proof enough that baptism, water baptism does not in itself "save" or place one in the body of Christ. Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ. It's so simple that the carnal mind can't fathom it, and so many try to add to its wondrous simplicity.


It was a good post I thought, but I think it does not adequately explain why people still baptize with water. I'm of the opinion that is done as a rite or sign of what has already taken place.

kay-gee
May 3rd 2009, 12:17 PM
The sign of the HS coming upon Cornelius's household before water was administered, and in Samaria I think it was when James baptized many but they did not receive the HS till Peter and John came, is proof enough that baptism, water baptism does not in itself "save" or place one in the body of Christ. Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ. It's so simple that the carnal mind can't fathom it, and so many try to add to its wondrous simplicity.


It was a good post I thought, but I think it does not adequately explain why people still baptize with water. I'm of the opinion that is done as a rite or sign of what has already taken place.

Now that we know your OPINION, let's see what the bible says! Read Act's Acts 2:38. It's always interesting to me the many ways the anti-water folks can slice and dice that verse.

all the best...

David2
May 3rd 2009, 12:35 PM
The sign of the HS coming upon Cornelius's household before water was administered, and in Samaria I think it was when James baptized many but they did not receive the HS till Peter and John came, is proof enough that baptism, water baptism does not in itself "save" or place one in the body of Christ. Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ. It's so simple that the carnal mind can't fathom it, and so many try to add to its wondrous simplicity.


It was a good post I thought, but I think it does not adequately explain why people still baptize with water. I'm of the opinion that is done as a rite or sign of what has already taken place.

Veretax
I love your line: "Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ." This is the essence of Tomlane's post above. And now your question: "Why do people still baptise with water?" Scripturaly, water baptism was given before the cross was preached. It was a rite for people to hold on to in a time before the real foundation of there salvation was made known. But we are obviously not in that category. If we are to continue with the rite, it must be with other reasons than those given in the Bible: "For the remission of sins" or "He who believes and is baptised, will be saved".

Are we free to continue with a Biblical shadow changing the Biblical reasons why we practise this shadow or rite? The Bible says "for the remission of sins" and "will be saved", but we want to make it, as you say, "a sign of what has already taken place". No, we don't have any scriptural right to change the reason for the rite. Just take note that the time of the full knowledge of the cross has come and that all rites, shadows, and first principals of the pre-cross era have been removed. There is now only one baptism.

Butch5
May 3rd 2009, 06:37 PM
Don't get me wrong I am not defending the long article posted but I do have questions on your assertion. It sounds as if you are saying that a person is not saved when they truly believe but shall be saved. Do you agree that a believer has passed from death to Life through believing in Christ? Do you believe that they are now sons of God? Do you believe we have been saved not by our works but by His mercy?

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(Joh 5:24)

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
(Gal 4:6)

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
(Tit 3:5)

It's true that there is a future sense in redemption, especially our bodies, but can you really deny salvation as an accomplished fact as well?

I can deny that salvation is an accomplished act, if you are referring to the entirety of salvation. Salvation is a process, The initial stage begins when we believe. We have passed from death to life, however, at this point we are not guaranteed to endure to the end. Paul says we have the down payment of our salvation, which is the holy Spirit. There is still much to the process which will culminate when we are raised at the resurrection. When Scripture speaks of saved in the past tense, it speaks of this initial stage, however, there is also a future stage to being saved, which Christ speaks of several times in the Scriptures, when He says, "he who endures to the end shall be saved."

John146
May 3rd 2009, 06:51 PM
Now that we know your OPINION, let's see what the bible says! Read Act's Acts 2:38. It's always interesting to me the many ways the anti-water folks can slice and dice that verse.

all the best...Do you read Acts 2:38 as though it says one has to be baptized in water in order to receive the Spirit? If so, how do you reconcile that with Acts 10:43-48?

Butch5
May 3rd 2009, 06:58 PM
The sign of the HS coming upon Cornelius's household before water was administered, and in Samaria I think it was when James baptized many but they did not receive the HS till Peter and John came, is proof enough that baptism, water baptism does not in itself "save" or place one in the body of Christ. Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ. It's so simple that the carnal mind can't fathom it, and so many try to add to its wondrous simplicity.


It was a good post I thought, but I think it does not adequately explain why people still baptize with water. I'm of the opinion that is done as a rite or sign of what has already taken place.

Hi V,

We have one instance where God sent the holy Spirit prior to water baptism. God is the one who makes the rules. If He chooses to overrule is own law does that negate His law for the rest of us? We have clear teaching from Jesus and the apostles in several different places telling us that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Jesus and the apostles were speaking under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the words they spoke were from God. So, if I understand what you are saying, correct me if I am wrong, is that because God chose to do things differently with Cornelius', that negates God's word that is taught by Jesus and the apostles. If the king makes a law and then chooses to act outside of that law, does that negate the law? Are his subjects no longer bound by the kings command?

Veretax
May 3rd 2009, 07:10 PM
Now that we know your OPINION, let's see what the bible says! Read Act's Acts 2:38. It's always interesting to me the many ways the anti-water folks can slice and dice that verse.

all the best...
you mean this part:

ACts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly F12 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=Acts+2&section=0&version=nkj&language=en#F12) received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.


You seem to have missed what I am saying, in this passage clearly they were baptized and received the Holy Spirit, but elsewhere in acts, the two things did not seem to happen simultaneously, This is true with Cornelius Family and for those who were baptized along with Simon Magus by James if memory serves. Which frankly strikes me as odd. If baptism is what puts them into the body, why did Peter and John have to come lay on hands? IF Cornelius already had the spirit, then what purpose did baptism serve?

See this is the point I am making. It cannot be that water baptism saves, or has any real part in whether we are saved or not, there is a spiritual truth here not a physical one.



Veretax
I love your line: "Having concluded that, you are left with simple faith in Christ." This is the essence of Tomlane's post above. And now your question: "Why do people still baptise with water?" Scripturaly, water baptism was given before the cross was preached. It was a rite for people to hold on to in a time before the real foundation of there salvation was made known. But we are obviously not in that category. If we are to continue with the rite, it must be with other reasons than those given in the Bible: "For the remission of sins" or "He who believes and is baptised, will be saved".

Are we free to continue with a Biblical shadow changing the Biblical reasons why we practise this shadow or rite? The Bible says "for the remission of sins" and "will be saved", but we want to make it, as you say, "a sign of what has already taken place". No, we don't have any scriptural right to change the reason for the rite. Just take note that the time of the full knowledge of the cross has come and that all rites, shadows, and first principals of the pre-cross era have been removed. There is now only one baptism.

See I believe that water baptism is still important. I was baptized as an infant, I had no faith, the Holy spirit wasn't in me, later I came to believe in Christ, and began to walk in his ways through the Spirit when I received him. It wasn't until almost 7 years later that I submitted to believers baptism, and I did so with no doubt whether I was saved or not, I knew that I was. I did so because of the parenthesis in Peter's epistle, to settle the matter before God and not let it be a stumbling block to keep me from growing in him.

However, now 12 years later, I am more mature, and know the bible better, and when I look back I scratch my head as I read threads like this, because what was the point of water baptism to begin with? For the jews they came out to "repent" and be cleansed, to prepare themselves for the coming messiah, and yet even though many did, look what happened, many still rejected him.

The more I read through Romans, the more I'm convinced that there is no one act or work that brings us into a right fellowship with God, it is only through faith in him, that anyone can be saved. Christ already did the work of cleansing the record for us, the question now is do we accept what he has done and him as our Lord and Savior, or do we reject him out of hand and continue living in squalor.

The entire point of being a Christian, and following Christ, is that we don't have to walk in darkness, we have the light within us!


Oh and regarding your question Butch.


I disagree, I don't think water baptism matters. Only true belief, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why would god do things so differently within a matter of months? The changes God did in the OT were over many years, decades, in some cases centuries before he changed. WHy would he give a different way for Cornelius's family, and everone else. I believe the gospel is VERY clear on what you must due to be save, that is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, with all of your essence, believe that he died on the Cross and raised from the dead as the perfect, ultimate, singular, one-time only, sacrifice that is sufficient for all peoples across the great chasm of time. If you believe that, then you are saved. There is no question in my mind there.

Baptism is an interesting subject to discuss, but it is not a Major, it is a minor, in my opinion.

John the Baptist foreshadowed Christs coming by saying he indeed baptized with water, but that one was coming whos sandles he wasn't worthy to unloosen, and he would baptize them with the Holy Spirit, and Fire. Isn't that interesting? Why must water baptism be what is being discussed, when John the Baptist, speaking by the Holy Spirit within him said thus would Jesus do?

We are baptized when we believe and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that is what I believe.

Water baptism to me is something I"m currently mulling about in my head to be honest.

Eben
May 3rd 2009, 07:30 PM
Hi Veretax,
Here is another thought. If John the baptist say that he baptised with water but that He that will come after him will baptise with fire and then we have Paul in 1Cor saying that he was not sent to baptise and then further on he says that we are all baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Then still later Paul speaks of the one baptism, the question begs which one.

kay-gee
May 4th 2009, 12:01 AM
Do you read Acts 2:38 as though it says one has to be baptized in water in order to receive the Spirit? If so, how do you reconcile that with Acts 10:43-48?

Reconciliation not necessary. Acts 2:38 is a commandment in response to the question "what do we do to be saved?" Acts 2:39 tells us that the program is forever and for everyone.

Acts 10:43-48 is the re-telling of an event and how the apostle was shown by a miraculous appearing of the Spirit, that the chance for salvation was now made to even Gentiles. THE SPIRIT FELL ON THEM!!! No where in scripture does it ever say anyone was baptized IN spirit.

In Mark 16:16. The apostles were commanded TO baptize. How could you BAPTIZE in spirit? What does SPIRIT even look like??? Why is a human even involved in an act that the Spirit is clearly able to do itself?

Hope this helps to dis-spell some of the trouble you having with these verses.

all the best...

crossnote
May 4th 2009, 05:13 AM
I can deny that salvation is an accomplished act, if you are referring to the entirety of salvation. Salvation is a process, The initial stage begins when we believe. We have passed from death to life, however, at this point we are not guaranteed to endure to the end. Paul says we have the down payment of our salvation, which is the holy Spirit. There is still much to the process which will culminate when we are raised at the resurrection. When Scripture speaks of saved in the past tense, it speaks of this initial stage, however, there is also a future stage to being saved, which Christ speaks of several times in the Scriptures, when He says, "he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Ok, I guess your thanks to Him is only lessened until you reach the other shore? Do you think the remainder of your salvation is dependent on you or Him? Is He faithful to complete that which He began or am I driving this thread to an off topic? :B

kay-gee
May 4th 2009, 11:54 AM
Ok, I guess your thanks to Him is only lessened until you reach the other shore? Do you think the remainder of your salvation is dependent on you or Him? Is He faithful to complete that which He began or am I driving this thread to an off topic? :B

Philippians 2:12-13 suggests that it is a two way thing. WE are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet God is at work also in us. It would seem to me that the more you work on it, the more God helps you.

all the best...

Teke
May 4th 2009, 12:50 PM
Has the doctrine of the Apostles changed?



Acts 10:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Firstfruits

No it has not changed. It is evident that Peter continues in what Jesus has said, "by water and Spirit". This is the point in Acts when they find out Gentiles are also included. Initially it began with Jews and later expanded to include Samaritans (see 8:5-25). Now here in Acts Gentiles also.

Each group, beginning with the Jews was baptized into Christ by water.

I can't even believe people consider otherwise.

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 01:17 PM
No it has not changed. It is evident that Peter continues in what Jesus has said, "by water and Spirit". This is the point in Acts when they find out Gentiles are also included. Initially it began with Jews and later expanded to include Samaritans (see 8:5-25). Now here in Acts Gentiles also.

Each group, beginning with the Jews was baptized into Christ by water.

I can't even believe people consider otherwise.

1 Tim 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1 Tim 6:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 4th 2009, 02:24 PM
Reconciliation not necessary. Acts 2:38 is a commandment in response to the question "what do we do to be saved?" Acts 2:39 tells us that the program is forever and for everyone.

Acts 10:43-48 is the re-telling of an event and how the apostle was shown by a miraculous appearing of the Spirit, that the chance for salvation was now made to even Gentiles. THE SPIRIT FELL ON THEM!!! No where in scripture does it ever say anyone was baptized IN spirit. I don't see your point here. Are you trying to say that the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48 were not baptized with the Holy Spirit and/or did not receive the Spirit?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You read this as though it says water baptism is necessary before receiving the Holy Spirit, do you not? Yet we have an example in Acts 10:43-48 of people receiving the Spirit before they were baptized in water. Please tell me how you reconcile this with your view. Be specific.

Teke
May 4th 2009, 02:38 PM
I don't see your point here. Are you trying to say that the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48 were not baptized with the Holy Spirit and/or did not receive the Spirit?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You read this as though it says water baptism is necessary before receiving the Holy Spirit, do you not? Yet we have an example in Acts 10:43-48 of people receiving the Spirit before they were baptized in water. Please tell me how you reconcile this with your view. Be specific.

You could call it a Gentile Pentecost. :D
Peter gives the same directive for baptism in Acts 10 as he does in Acts 2 verse 38.

John146
May 4th 2009, 03:03 PM
You could call it a Gentile Pentecost. :D
Peter gives the same directive for baptism in Acts 10 as he does in Acts 2 verse 38.Right, but in Acts 10 water baptism comes after receiving the Spirit whereas the way some read Acts 2:38 leads them to believe that water baptism is necessary before receiving the Spirit. I believe that the moment one receives the Spirit is the moment that they are born again and saved.

Veretax
May 4th 2009, 03:17 PM
Right, but in Acts 10 water baptism comes after receiving the Spirit whereas the way some read Acts 2:38 leads them to believe that water baptism is necessary before receiving the Spirit. I believe that the moment one receives the Spirit is the moment that they are born again and saved.

Ditto, which in turn makes submission to water baptism in essence a first step of faith, confirming what a person believes to the congregation of believers present.

Teke
May 4th 2009, 03:24 PM
Right, but in Acts 10 water baptism comes after receiving the Spirit whereas the way some read Acts 2:38 leads them to believe that water baptism is necessary before receiving the Spirit. I believe that the moment one receives the Spirit is the moment that they are born again and saved.

When I read the Spirit fell on them, to me this means the revelation of Jesus. And I believe we should all agree that once that has happened we are to become obedient in baptism.

I've actually witnessed the Spirit come upon a person, yet they refused to be sealed in baptism. So the revelation or experience of the Spirit is only a taste, so to speak, of what God has in store for you should you choose to follow Him.

Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

Tasting the Spirit doesn't mean you will automatically follow Christ. That is a matter for you to choose.

In my understanding, there must also be a sealing of the Holy Spirit to confirm the persons choice, as well as God's calling.

Salvation is freely offered, and must be freely accepted.:)

John146
May 4th 2009, 03:38 PM
When I read the Spirit fell on them, to me this means the revelation of Jesus. And I believe we should all agree that once that has happened we are to become obedient in baptism.

I've actually witnessed the Spirit come upon a person, yet they refused to be sealed in baptism. So the revelation or experience of the Spirit is only a taste, so to speak, of what God has in store for you should you choose to follow Him.

Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him.

Tasting the Spirit doesn't mean you will automatically follow Christ. That is a matter for you to choose.

In my understanding, there must also be a sealing of the Holy Spirit to confirm the persons choice, as well as God's calling.

Salvation is freely offered, and must be freely accepted.:)Are you saying you don't believe they received the Spirit before they were baptized in water?

Acts 10
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Verse 47 makes it very clear that they received the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water.

Firstfruits
May 4th 2009, 05:22 PM
Are you saying you don't believe they received the Spirit before they were baptized in water?

Acts 10
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Verse 47 makes it very clear that they received the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water.

According to the scriptures what is the requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Thanks and God bless you!

Firstfruits

Teke
May 4th 2009, 05:26 PM
Are you saying you don't believe they received the Spirit before they were baptized in water?

Acts 10
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Verse 47 makes it very clear that they received the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water.

No, I didn't say they didn't receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. I said baptism seals them in the Spirit/Body of Christ. For the Jews, here in Acts, this is a sign for them to know the Gentiles are accepted. Meaning they are worthy of baptism as well.

Certainly you don't believe that God falls on people thus making them His without their consent.

Veretax
May 4th 2009, 06:04 PM
No, I didn't say they didn't receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. I said baptism seals them in the Spirit/Body of Christ. For the Jews, here in Acts, this is a sign for them to know the Gentiles are accepted. Meaning they are worthy of baptism as well.

Certainly you don't believe that God falls on people thus making them His without their consent.


Not to belittle the point, but there are some people of the reformed or Cavlinist mindset that believe that basically is what happens, that God appoints them to Salvation and its going to happen as an ever present fact.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but, figured I'd bring up that poinT :/

Teke
May 4th 2009, 06:17 PM
Not to belittle the point, but there are some people of the reformed or Cavlinist mindset that believe that basically is what happens, that God appoints them to Salvation and its going to happen as an ever present fact.

I'm not saying I agree with that, but, figured I'd bring up that poinT :/
Sounds like universal salvation in a bad way. Bad, because nobody has a choice in the matter. And God has clearly created choices for us to make.

Salvation is an ever present fact, but it has to be accepted to have a witness of that fact. Statements without facts are called 'theories'.

Veretax
May 4th 2009, 06:45 PM
Sounds like universal salvation in a bad way. Bad, because nobody has a choice in the matter. And God has clearly created choices for us to make.

Salvation is an ever present fact, but it has to be accepted to have a witness of that fact. Statements without facts are called 'theories'.


I was referring to their concept of Predesination which in effect puts the matter of who is and isn't saved completely in God's hands in effect with little say from the ones being chosen.

However, I don't feel I'm making my rather subtle point well, and since I don't believe I can pull off the "devil's advocate" kind of thing in this point I'll concede, bang my head on the keyboard, and just resolve that I just don't know to communicate what I meant properly :/

Tomlane
May 4th 2009, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crossnote
Ok, I guess your thanks to Him is only lessened until you reach the other shore? Do you think the remainder of your salvation is dependent on you or Him? Is He faithful to complete that which He began or am I driving this thread to an off topic?


Kay-gee replied,
Philippians 2:12-13 suggests that it is a two way thing. WE are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet God is at work also in us. It would seem to me that the more you work on it, the more God helps you.

all the best...

I'm not sure if you two were referring to salvation being contingent on what we do for works. If that should what is meant,then that would be in error according to God's word.

A person can't work for their salvation if they already have it just as that suggests.

Philippians 2:12 *¶Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You have to already have your salvation so there is no working it out to keep it bu rather to server Christ is what that is referring to. We server Christ with fear and trembling figuratively speaking, the reason why so we can serve Christ with maturity.

Here are some good examples of working out one's salvation.

2 Corinthians 7:1 *Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 5:21 *Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

2 Timothy 1:7 *For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind *For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

2 Timothy 1:7 sounds contradictory doesn't it when you compare it to the above scriptures? I believe fear and trembling is used in the context of respect for the awesome power God has over our lives and the consequences of not obeying God's word for the saving of our souls and growing in a closer relationship with Him is what working our salvation is about. If a person is working for their salvation then they will never be justified.

Romans 3:20 *Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Tomlane

John146
May 4th 2009, 07:13 PM
According to the scriptures what is the requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Cor 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Thanks and God bless you!

FirstfruitsHaving faith in Christ.

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Teke
May 4th 2009, 07:15 PM
I was referring to their concept of Predesination which in effect puts the matter of who is and isn't saved completely in God's hands in effect with little say from the ones being chosen.

However, I don't feel I'm making my rather subtle point well, and since I don't believe I can pull off the "devil's advocate" kind of thing in this point I'll concede, bang my head on the keyboard, and just resolve that I just don't know to communicate what I meant properly :/

I get you. I was thinking of the "I" in the TULIP not the "P". I just disagree with it because it just confuses people. It's just a system somebody came up with to sell to others. IOW captialize on Jesus for their gain. It's just not the truth IMHO. :)

John146
May 4th 2009, 07:15 PM
No, I didn't say they didn't receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. I said baptism seals them in the Spirit/Body of Christ. For the Jews, here in Acts, this is a sign for them to know the Gentiles are accepted. Meaning they are worthy of baptism as well. Can you show me where scripture specifically states that water baptism seals us in the Spirit/Body of Christ?

What is your understanding of this verse:

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Certainly you don't believe that God falls on people thus making them His without their consent.No, I don't. What made you ask that?

Teke
May 4th 2009, 07:45 PM
Can you show me where scripture specifically states that water baptism seals us in the Spirit/Body of Christ?

There is no clear words in scripture that plainly say, "sealed in baptism". I gave the full baptismal description in an earlier post (I think in this thread), as is done in my church. Scriptures which relate of being sealed with the Holy Spirit are in Ephesians. 1:13, 4:30

After the Pentecost sign, it was done by the laying of hands to receive the Spirit. I related this in my church's baptism being done by chrismation, which is anointing the person with oil (chrism oil is holy oil because it is specially prepared for this, with prayer). They make the sign of the cross, on their forehead, ears, eyes, nose, hands front and back, and on their feet. IOW from head to toe.

In Acts 8 we read of the Samaritans, who were baptized into Jesus, but the Spirit had not fell on them as it did the Jews in the beginning of Acts. By the hands of the Apostles. they, the Samaritans, received the Spirit. see 8:14-19



What is your understanding of this verse:

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We have all been united by One Spirit through baptsim. also see Romans 6:5



No, I don't. What made you ask that?

Because you seem so focused on the Spirit "falling" on people. Acts 8 shows that isn't what always happened.

John146
May 4th 2009, 09:12 PM
There is no clear words in scripture that plainly say, "sealed in baptism". I gave the full baptismal description in an earlier post (I think in this thread), as is done in my church. Scriptures which relate of being sealed with the Holy Spirit are in Ephesians. 1:13, 4:30

After the Pentecost sign, it was done by the laying of hands to receive the Spirit. I related this in my church's baptism being done by chrismation, which is anointing the person with oil (chrism oil is holy oil because it is specially prepared for this, with prayer). They make the sign of the cross, on their forehead, ears, eyes, nose, hands front and back, and on their feet. IOW from head to toe. Sounds complicated. ;) So you acknowledge that no scripture specifically says that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is directly related to water baptism then, right?


We have all been united by One Spirit through baptsim. also see Romans 6:5Is that not the baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist talked about? He said he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.


Because you seem so focused on the Spirit "falling" on people. Acts 8 shows that isn't what always happened.No, I'm focused on the receiving of the Spirit and when that occurs. It should be clear that it can occur even before water baptism which suggests to me that water baptism is not required in order to receive the Spirit and be born of the Spirit (which I believe are the same thing or at least happen at the same time).

Butch5
May 4th 2009, 11:14 PM
Ok, I guess your thanks to Him is only lessened until you reach the other shore? Do you think the remainder of your salvation is dependent on you or Him? Is He faithful to complete that which He began or am I driving this thread to an off topic? :B

Salvation is all of God, it is up to us if we will meet the criteria that God set for salvation.

Tomlane
May 4th 2009, 11:17 PM
Thank you John146 for asking, Can you show me where scripture specifically states that water baptism seals us in the Spirit/Body of Christ?

I have to tell you I have never made that connection. You are absolutely correct in asking such a good question and one that deserves an answer from our friends with water on the brain.

Even in scripture now that I think on it there is no connection made with the spirit of God or even with man concerning being sealed with God's holy spirit with water. I'm sure if God had intended for a person to be baptized with water for receiving the Holy Spirit it would have said so. I also don't understand how anyone can connect water to salvation when its not in the scriptures no matter how much one twists scripture to make it seem acceptable.

Thanks again John, I learned something new today! :idea:

Tomlane

kay-gee
May 5th 2009, 03:09 AM
Right, but in Acts 10 water baptism comes after receiving the Spirit whereas the way some read Acts 2:38 leads them to believe that water baptism is necessary before receiving the Spirit. I believe that the moment one receives the Spirit is the moment that they are born again and saved.

And that my friend is where you are going off the track. The Spirit fell on them. Nothing is said about anyone being saved. The Spirit made an appearance in the same manner as it did on Pentecost in order to demonstrate something. In this case is was to signify that Gentiles were authoriized to recieve salvation. Up to ths point they were not.
Not every time the Spirit appears someone is save. When the Spirit descended in Matt 3:16 was Jesus "SAVED?" Of course not!!! The Spirit was Authenticating Christ before witnesses that Jesus was the son of God. This is not a difficult thing to understand John146. I don't know why you have such a hard time with it.

all the best...

losthorizon
May 5th 2009, 03:10 AM
Is that not the baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist talked about? He said he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.


And Jesus did baptize with the Holy Spirit in fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28 (see Acts 2:14-21). This biblical fact does not negate our obligation to the Risen Lord to be immersed in water “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). You appear to forget that it was Jesus who instituted and commanded all who will be His disciples to be baptized in water - “he that believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) – belief and baptism clearly *precede* “shall be saved”. You have never addressed this biblical fact. Do you have the authority to tell folks on this thread that the ordinance of Christian baptism is no longer part of the gospel of Christ? Do you have the authority to negate God’s command?
Mark 16:16. "These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

kay-gee
May 5th 2009, 03:40 AM
Hi John146. To hold your position, is to essentially say that Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:44 are in contradiction and that apostle Peter was in contradiction! NOT SO. In verse 47 Peter was merely teaching what he had been taught to teach. Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. Peter, being the holder of the keys, to the Kingdom (Matt 16:19) was simply unlocking the door to the kingdom to the Gentiles as he had unlocked it to the Jews in Acts 2:38. The same door. WATER! John 3:5

See how it all dovetails perfectly?! NO CONTRADICTIONS

all the best...

crossnote
May 5th 2009, 05:33 AM
Philippians 2:12-13 suggests that it is a two way thing. WE are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet God is at work also in us. It would seem to me that the more you work on it, the more God helps you.

all the best...

I've always understood that verse to mean...that as God works in us through His Word and Spirit we are able to take part in the work of the Lord but not in the sense of working for our salvation or even our sanctification. In other words this is a 'work' of cultivation and fruit not merit.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 07:01 AM
Having faith in Christ.

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Thanks John,

If we therefore have faith in Christ and we have repented of our sins and our sins have been forgiven, then that means the Holy Spirit can come in.
There does not need to be a dispute over what comes after repentance as long as we do as Christ has commanded..

WOuld you agree?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kay-gee
May 5th 2009, 12:14 PM
h
I've always understood that verse to mean...that as God works in us through His Word and Spirit we are able to take part in the work of the Lord but not in the sense of working for our salvation or even our sanctification. In other words this is a 'work' of cultivation and fruit not merit.

The scripture says... work OUT not work FOR. I wouldn't suggest we can earn salvation by working. I look at it like working out your marriage. Though it was a one time event (the marital union), you work on it to solidify it and make it stronger as you go through your life.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 12:44 PM
h

The scripture says... work OUT not work FOR. I wouldn't suggest we can earn salvation by working. I look at it like working out your marriage. Though it was a one time event (the marital union), you work on it to solidify it and make it stronger as you go through your life.

all the best...

Phil 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Firstfruits

Teke
May 5th 2009, 01:08 PM
Sounds complicated. ;) So you acknowledge that no scripture specifically says that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is directly related to water baptism then, right?

No, it's not complicated, it's a matter of applying what Jesus said to living reality. Jesus said "if you confess me before men I will confess you before the Father". Matt. 20:32, Lk. 12:8

John 3:33 says, "he who has received His testimony has certified that God is true" Now how do you make that plain to witnesses such as are in the church but by baptism.

A "seal" affixed implies possession or security, as well as being a distinctive mark. Can we do such with words from our mouths. I say no. But with the words of our mouth confessing Him and being baptized we can and do have a bona fide witness of our testimony of Him. If anyone doubt us in another church, we have a certificate, certifying that we have been baptized and received His testimony.

So for those who only do water baptism, without any anointing to clarify such a sealing, I say they are sealed in baptism. As not only by words of the mouth, but by a physical work on our part, which is a manifestation of that truth we proclaim in both word and deed.

The bible isn't a law book with guidance for every matter such as some law observers believe. It is a written witness from the mouths of those who believed in Christ. It is, and has been the mission of the church, to put those words in action, not just in thought.

So while scripture doesn't say in plain words that you are sealed with the Spirit at baptism, it also doesn't say you are not. It is (as I repeatedly tell the law keepers) a matter of applying what Jesus said.


Is that not the baptism with the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist talked about? He said he baptized with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

John's baptism of water only prepares for Christ's baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. Christ baptizes in fire, for as the grace of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Apostles in the form of tongues of fire (ie. Pentecost in Acts), so is that grace poured out in baptism.

There is the connection of both. First water, then fire. Thus water preserves you for fire, just as water quenchs fire. Without that righteous robe of baptism, you could be consumed by such fire ie. God is a consuming fire. Is not the man of God fitly prepared for all things. Scripture says all things happened to them as examples. 1 Cor. 10:11 and verse 12 says, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Even 1 Cor. 10:1 says they passed under the cloud and through the sea, were they not baptized preparing them for their fiery trial in the wilderness.

Indeed all points to baptism.


No, I'm focused on the receiving of the Spirit and when that occurs. It should be clear that it can occur even before water baptism which suggests to me that water baptism is not required in order to receive the Spirit and be born of the Spirit (which I believe are the same thing or at least happen at the same time).

"receiving of the Spirit" is just a taste. For the Spirit to dwell in us eternally, thus sealing us, we are prepared in baptism. The Spirit doesn't dwell in an unclean place. Thus baptism shows our santification we have accepted of God. There is no confusion in such, as it is a plainly seen witness before the church. Actions speak louder than words, as words can be misconstrued, but actions are evident, thus evidence.

Whatever the order, "all things" must be fulfilled in being done, making plain to the world that, that which is spiritual is a living reality.

Without such a living witness, the things of God become secular to mankind. And that is gnosticism or philosophical, and not the mission of the church.

Our Lord is more real to us in our state of being when there is the living reality for us to look to. The church carries this living spiritual reality in the world.

Should you think that a spoken word is enough. Without the Lord with you words fall to the ground. 1 Sam. 3:19 Just as faith without works is dead. James 2:26

John146
May 5th 2009, 02:24 PM
And that my friend is where you are going off the track. The Spirit fell on them. Nothing is said about anyone being saved.The Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48 received the Spirit before being baptized in water. If one is not saved upon receiving the Spirit then Acts 2:38 would not have anything to do with salvation, either, when it speaks of receiving the Holy Spirit.

John146
May 5th 2009, 02:30 PM
Hi John146. To hold your position, is to essentially say that Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:44 are in contradiction and that apostle Peter was in contradiction!That's funny. I was thinking the same of your interpretation of the verses. If you insist that water baptism is necessary before the remission of sins and receiving of the Spirit then you are contradicting Acts 10:43-48. I see you as being the one that needs to rethink your understanding of Acts 2:38 in order to fit scripture as a whole.

John146
May 5th 2009, 03:58 PM
And Jesus did baptize with the Holy Spirit in fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28 (see Acts 2:14-21). This biblical fact does not negate our obligation to the Risen Lord to be immersed in water “for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38).Are you saying that you think Jesus no longer baptizes with the Holy Spirit? It specifically says in 1 Cor 12:13 that it is the baptism with the Holy Spirit that places us in the body of Christ. You say I have no answer for Mark 16:16. But you have no answer for 1 Cor 12:13. Are we not saved upon being baptized into the body of Christ? Paul taught that the way that occurs is by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.


You appear to forget that it was Jesus who instituted and commanded all who will be His disciples to be baptized in water - “he that believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) – belief and baptism clearly *precede* “shall be saved”. You have never addressed this biblical fact.Yes, I have.


Do you have the authority to tell folks on this thread that the ordinance of Christian baptism is no longer part of the gospel of Christ?None of us have the authority to tell anyone what to believe. It's up to each person to examine all the evidence given, examing the scripture for themselves and then come to a decision about what they believe. But Paul had the authority to indicate that water baptism and the gospel are two separate things:

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Baptizing people was not a priority for Paul, but preaching the gospel to them was.

We addressed Mark 16:16 before. Then you denied that Mark 16:17-18 apply to the same ones who believe, are baptized and are saved. Where is the consistency in the way you read Mark 16? If Mark 16:16 is saying that we have to be water baptized to be saved then Mark 16:17-18 is saying that if we truly believe and are saved then we will "cast out devils...speak with new tongues..take up serpents...if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them...and lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.". If you haven't done those things yet then you are not saved yet, at least if you interpret Mark 16:17-18 the way you interpret Mark 16:16.

Also, since the second half of the verse says those who do not believe will be damned it seems to me that it is faith in Christ that brings salvation while a lack of faith in Christ brings damnation. Which is exactly what John 3:16-18 teaches. If one could believe and still not be saved if they weren't baptized in water then I believe Jesus would have made that clear. But He didn't say anything about that.

Another thing to point out to you is that you think it is saying that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved after believing and being baptized. To be consistent if you think the future tense "shall be saved" is the best translation of the Greek and implies that one is saved after believing and being baptized then this would mean you also believe that the phrase "shall be condemned" is future tense as well. But what does it say in John 3:18? It says that the one who does not believe is "condemned already". In the same vein, the one who believes and is baptized is saved already. If read in the correct tense the verse does not say what you think it says.

In Mark 16:16, "The word 'saved' is translated from the Greek word sesosmenoi, which is a perfect passive participle. It means that this salvation took place at some point in the past, being accomplished by Jesus Christ Himself, and is continuing on in the present." [Spiros Zodhiates, editor, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (Chattanooga, Tennessee: AMG Publishers, 1996), note for Mark 16:16.]

The one who believes and has been baptized is saved and continues to be saved. This is true whether one is baptized before or after salvation. It's not saying that the one who believes and is baptized is saved after believing and being baptized. I'm sure Jesus would have assumed that anyone who believed would also get baptized at some point, whether immediately after putting their faith in Him or later when they found someone to baptize them. Anyone who believes and has been baptized is saved. Anyone who does not believe is damned. The only term that is used in both parts of the verse is "believe". So, if it was Jesus' point to indicate what is required for salvation, then it's faith that is required since not believing means someone is damned already and the wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36). If one could believe and still not be saved then why is there no scripture that ever says that?

Your doctrine makes it impossible for anyone to be saved the way the thief on the cross was saved. It would say that if someone is dying and decides to put their faith in Christ but is not able to find someone to baptize them and/or unable to get to water in time, then they are damned. In that case verses like John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10 would not apply to them.

Another thing that you miss is that scripture does not teach that OT saints were saved a different way than we are. We can see this here:

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham was saved by faith in the Messiah. We, too, are saved by faith in Christ. He looked forward to Christ, we look back. By having faith in Christ we become Christ's and are Abraham's seed. We are blessed with faithful Abraham. We are saved the same way he was saved: by faith. We are baptized into Christ by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) which should not be confused with water baptism.

And one other thing you miss is that we are saved immediately upon putting our faith in Christ.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Faith comes before baptism and yet this says we pass from spiritual death unto spiritual life upon putting our faith in Christ.

John146
May 5th 2009, 04:04 PM
Thanks John,

If we therefore have faith in Christ and we have repented of our sins and our sins have been forgiven, then that means the Holy Spirit can come in. I believe the Holy Spirit not only can but does come in immediately after we repent and put our faith in Christ. That's what I believe happened to the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48.


There does not need to be a dispute over what comes after repentance as long as we do as Christ has commanded..

WOuld you agree?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsI think you are missing the point that is being discussed here. So let me get a little clarification from you. Do you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation? That's the issue I'm addressing. I am not trying to say that water baptism was not commanded of all disciples/believers.

John146
May 5th 2009, 04:31 PM
No, it's not complicated, it's a matter of applying what Jesus said to living reality. Jesus said "if you confess me before men I will confess you before the Father". Matt. 20:32, Lk. 12:8Does this need to be in a church setting?


John 3:33 says, "he who has received His testimony has certified that God is true" Now how do you make that plain to witnesses such as are in the church but by baptism.

A "seal" affixed implies possession or security, as well as being a distinctive mark. Can we do such with words from our mouths. I say no. But with the words of our mouth confessing Him and being baptized we can and do have a bona fide witness of our testimony of Him. If anyone doubt us in another church, we have a certificate, certifying that we have been baptized and received His testimony.

So for those who only do water baptism, without any anointing to clarify such a sealing, I say they are sealed in baptism. As not only by words of the mouth, but by a physical work on our part, which is a manifestation of that truth we proclaim in both word and deed.

The bible isn't a law book with guidance for every matter such as some law observers believe. It is a written witness from the mouths of those who believed in Christ. It is, and has been the mission of the church, to put those words in action, not just in thought.

So while scripture doesn't say in plain words that you are sealed with the Spirit at baptism, it also doesn't say you are not. It is (as I repeatedly tell the law keepers) a matter of applying what Jesus said. And I don't believe that He ever said or implied that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit with water baptism. I believe the baptism with the Holy Spirit, being born of the Spirit and the sealing of the Holy Spirit all happen either simultaneously or in rapid succession and none of it has anything to do with something we are doing, such as getting baptized in water. It all has to do with what God does within us after we repent and believe.


John's baptism of water only prepares for Christ's baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. Christ baptizes in fire, for as the grace of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the Apostles in the form of tongues of fire (ie. Pentecost in Acts), so is that grace poured out in baptism. Where does scripture speak of Christ's baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. I see the Holy Spirit referred to as the living water that those who believe will receive (John 7:37-39), but I don't ever see any mention of Christ's baptism being a baptism of physical water and the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist made it clear that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire and said nothing about Jesus baptizing with physical water.


There is the connection of both. First water, then fire. Thus water preserves you for fire, just as water quenchs fire. Without that righteous robe of baptism, you could be consumed by such fire ie. God is a consuming fire. Is not the man of God fitly prepared for all things. Scripture says all things happened to them as examples. 1 Cor. 10:11 and verse 12 says, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Even 1 Cor. 10:1 says they passed under the cloud and through the sea, were they not baptized preparing them for their fiery trial in the wilderness.

Indeed all points to baptism. Just to remind you, we are placed into the body of Christ via the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), which should not be confused with water baptism.


"receiving of the Spirit" is just a taste.Where does scripture teach that?

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You are trying to say this passage teaches that those who believe on Him only receive a taste of the Holy Spirit and are not indwelt by the Spirit? If so, explain the phrase "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Sure looks like He's talking about the Spirit dwelling within us to me. If receiving the Spirit is not the same as being indwelt by the Spirit please show me an example of this from scripture.


For the Spirit to dwell in us eternally, thus sealing us, we are prepared in baptism. The Spirit doesn't dwell in an unclean place. Thus baptism shows our santification we have accepted of God. There is no confusion in such, as it is a plainly seen witness before the church. Actions speak louder than words, as words can be misconstrued, but actions are evident, thus evidence.

Whatever the order, "all things" must be fulfilled in being done, making plain to the world that, that which is spiritual is a living reality.

Without such a living witness, the things of God become secular to mankind. And that is gnosticism or philosophical, and not the mission of the church.Where is the scripture to back up your statements?


Our Lord is more real to us in our state of being when there is the living reality for us to look to. The church carries this living spiritual reality in the world.

Should you think that a spoken word is enough. Without the Lord with you words fall to the ground. 1 Sam. 3:19 Just as faith without works is dead. James 2:26What point are you trying to make here exactly? How does what you said here relate to baptism?

kay-gee
May 5th 2009, 04:47 PM
Where does it say that they had repented and put their faith in Jesus Christ? Verse 44...Peter was not even through speaking. The appearing of the Spirit was a sign to Peter that there was no more refusal of Gentiles to the Church. (Remember Peter was the guy that didn't always get stuff on the first go round) This miraculous sign made it over whelmingly clear. What was his first words? He commanded WATER for them to be baptized. Now go to verse 33. Cornelius was to hear ALL that the Lord COMMANDED!!!
The ones present that were baptized THEN recieved the Holy spirit as per Acts 2:38

all the best...

John146
May 5th 2009, 05:33 PM
Where does it say that they had repented and put their faith in Jesus Christ? Verse 44...Peter was not even through speaking.I acknowledge that I believe it is implied, but it's not specifically stated.

43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

He had just said that whoever would believe in Christ would receive the remission of sins. Next thing you know the Holy Spirit fell on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Seems to me that the reason for that was that they believed in Christ and in what Peter was preaching. Paul did say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17). I believe Peter's preaching of the word of God convinced them to put their faith in Christ right then and there.


The appearing of the Spirit was a sign to Peter that there was no more refusal of Gentiles to the Church. (Remember Peter was the guy that didn't always get stuff on the first go round) This miraculous sign made it over whelmingly clear. What was his first words? He commanded WATER for them to be baptized. Now go to verse 33. Cornelius was to hear ALL that the Lord COMMANDED!!!
The ones present that were baptized THEN recieved the Holy spirit as per Acts 2:38

all the best...It does not say that they received the Holy Spirit after they were water baptized. Take a closer look:

43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In verse 47, it says that they had already received the Holy Spirit as of the time Peter was speaking. Agree? This was before they were baptized in water, which should be obvious since he's asking whether anyone could forbid that they be baptized in water.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 05:47 PM
I believe the Holy Spirit not only can but does come in immediately after we repent and put our faith in Christ. That's what I believe happened to the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48.

I think you are missing the point that is being discussed here. So let me get a little clarification from you. Do you believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation? That's the issue I'm addressing. I am not trying to say that water baptism was not commanded of all disciples/believers.

According to the words of Christ baptism is necessary.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What I would then ask is, has Christs commission and warning changed?

Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

uric3
May 5th 2009, 06:25 PM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on Acts 10 and its really easy to explain and keep water baptism in the mix.

As we all should know Acts 9 and prior the gospel was only being preached to the Jews... so far it was considered that there was still that difference between Jews and Gentiles.

This can clearly be seen in Acts 10:28 "8He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him..."

Peter still had it in his mind up until he had the vision that he should have nothing to do with Gentiles nor should the Gospel be preached unto them...

Thus God gave them the spirit before water baptism to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles was now accepted. We see this in verse 45

"45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles."

They was astonished because they thought of Gentiles as unclean and not Gods chosen people. Even after this event the Jews and even Peter had trouble with this note Gal 2:11-ff

This was a one time thing to prove to Peter and the Jews that Gentiles now was accepted before God. Notice Acts 11:1-18 notably 18

"18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Its quite obvious that this wasn't the norm and that this did occur after water baptism rather than before because as its already been pointed out Peter commaded them to be baptized into water... and notice the words he used.

" Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

From the verses mentioned above I think God knew that Peter or the Jews with him would

A.) Without the vision Peter or the Jews would have not went into the house of a Gentile without the vision.
B.) Chances are after going they would not have allowed them to obey the Gospel... so to prove to Peter and those present they hey its ok God did this to prove unto them.

Thus Peters statement "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized?" I think the answer before God did this would have been yes they are horrible filthy Gentiles! LOL or something to that affect... but with Gods intervention they knew it was ok.

That's why you have this one and only case of the spirit before Water Baptism...

Thus in all other cases you have the norm which is Acts 2:37-38, 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16; Acts 8(whole chapter is intresting) etc...

So there you have it, it was a one time event to prove once and for all beyond a doubt that God accepts Gentiles the same as Jews... there was no longer a difference between the two Groups... it was as promised to Abraham it would be a blessing for all nations not just one...

Teke
May 5th 2009, 06:43 PM
Does this need to be in a church setting?

You could do it in the woods, but the people who are the church should be present. At least 2 or 3.


And I don't believe that He ever said or implied that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit with water baptism.

I've already posted that He did not say those exact words (He didn't even speak English). By the same token neither are they denied. Jesus said, according to what's written in scripture, "by water and Spirit".

If you disagree there is water involved, it is not me your disagreeing with, but what Jesus said according to what is written that He said. So that would have to be the first thing you address, as everything should align with Him, as we are to.


I believe the baptism with the Holy Spirit, being born of the Spirit and the sealing of the Holy Spirit all happen either simultaneously or in rapid succession and none of it has anything to do with something we are doing, such as getting baptized in water. It all has to do with what God does within us after we repent and believe.

I understand, that is what you believe. But we cannot form a basis without some understanding of God Himself, which is a trinitarian model. Least it wouldn't be the traditional (meaning what the church has always believed) understanding.


Where does scripture speak of Christ's baptism of water and the Holy Spirit.

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Tho

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

It is well documented that the Spirit accompanies baptism.


.....about Jesus baptizing with physical water.

His Spirit (God is Spirit), works with His Body, the Church. see the spiritual with the physcial working together


Just to remind you, we are placed into the body of Christ via the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13), which should not be confused with water baptism.

You haven't shown how they differ.


Where does scripture teach that?

It's semantics. taste of the Spirit =taste of the Lord 1 Pet. 2:3
Hebrews 6 uses "tasted" "of the heavenly gift", of "the good word of God".

Certainly you don't believe that each of us is indwelt with the full measure of the Spirit/God.


John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You are trying to say this passage teaches that those who believe on Him only receive a taste of the Holy Spirit and are not indwelt by the Spirit? If so, explain the phrase "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Sure looks like He's talking about the Spirit dwelling within us to me. If receiving the Spirit is not the same as being indwelt by the Spirit please show me an example of this from scripture.

I agree living waters flow from one with the Spirit. But that is an allegorical depiction. Jesus was not being allegorical when He said "water and spirit".


Where is the scripture to back up your statements?

What scriptures do I need to prove that the church is and has been a living reality since Christ.


What point are you trying to make here exactly? How does what you said here relate to baptism?

That baptism is a living reality. You do live in reality don't you.

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 06:55 PM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on Acts 10 and its really easy to explain and keep water baptism in the mix.

As we all should know Acts 9 and prior the gospel was only being preached to the Jews... so far it was considered that there was still that difference between Jews and Gentiles.

This can clearly be seen in Acts 10:28 "8He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him..."

Peter still had it in his mind up until he had the vision that he should have nothing to do with Gentiles nor should the Gospel be preached unto them...

Thus God gave them the spirit before water baptism to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles was now accepted. We see this in verse 45

"45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles."

They was astonished because they thought of Gentiles as unclean and not Gods chosen people. Even after this event the Jews and even Peter had trouble with this note Gal 2:11-ff

This was a one time thing to prove to Peter and the Jews that Gentiles now was accepted before God. Notice Acts 11:1-18 notably 18

"18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Its quite obvious that this wasn't the norm and that this did occur after water baptism rather than before because as its already been pointed out Peter commaded them to be baptized into water... and notice the words he used.

" Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

From the verses mentioned above I think God knew that Peter or the Jews with him would

A.) Without the vision Peter or the Jews would have not went into the house of a Gentile without the vision.
B.) Chances are after going they would not have allowed them to obey the Gospel... so to prove to Peter and those present they hey its ok God did this to prove unto them.

Thus Peters statement "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized?" I think the answer before God did this would have been yes they are horrible filthy Gentiles! LOL or something to that affect... but with Gods intervention they knew it was ok.

That's why you have this one and only case of the spirit before Water Baptism...

Thus in all other cases you have the norm which is Acts 2:37-38, 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16; Acts 8(whole chapter is intresting) etc...

So there you have it, it was a one time event to prove once and for all beyond a doubt that God accepts Gentiles the same as Jews... there was no longer a difference between the two Groups... it was as promised to Abraham it would be a blessing for all nations not just one...

Thanks Uric3,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

DMJ
May 5th 2009, 07:14 PM
Remember- "God changes not". Mal 3:6 and James 1:17

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 07:25 PM
Remember- "God changes not". Mal 3:6 and James 1:17

Thanks DMJ,

Although God does not change but with regard to what we have through the advent of Christ, what God has commanded or given us through Christ is not the same as that which went before.

God bless you, and welcome to the Forum.

Firstfruits

John146
May 5th 2009, 07:40 PM
According to the words of Christ baptism is necessary.

Mk 16:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

What I would then ask is, has Christs commission and warning changed?

Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

God bless you!

FirstfruitsPlease read post #50 in this thread where I already addressed Mark 16:16.

John146
May 5th 2009, 07:49 PM
Thanks DMJ,

Although God does not change but with regard to what we have through the advent of Christ, what God has commanded or given us through Christ is not the same as that which went before.

God bless you, and welcome to the Forum.

FirstfruitsWhat you're saying is true in general but not in regards to salvation. Abraham was saved and justified by faith and not by water baptism. Agree? Scripture says that we are saved and justified the same way Abraham was.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There's no reason to think that any more is required of us than was required of Abraham and the OT saints when it comes to salvation. Is there an OT gospel and a NT gospel? I don't believe so. There's only one gospel. One way to be saved. This applies to all people from all time. If we put our faith in Christ then we immediately become Christ's and are Abraham's seed. The way that we are baptized into Christ is by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

Firstfruits
May 5th 2009, 07:51 PM
Please read post #50 in this thread where I already addressed Mark 16:16.

We addressed Mark 16:16 before. Then you denied that Mark 16:17-18 apply to the same ones who believe, are baptized and are saved. Where is the consistency in the way you read Mark 16? If Mark 16:16 is saying that we have to be water baptized to be saved then Mark 16:17-18 is saying that if we truly believe and are saved then we will "cast out devils...speak with new tongues..take up serpents...if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them...and lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.". If you haven't done those things yet then you are not saved yet, at least if you interpret Mark 16:17-18 the way you interpret Mark 16:16.

The problem with baptism is that the Disciples cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, only Christ can do that, so has Christ commanded us to do what we cannot do?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 5th 2009, 08:05 PM
The problem with baptism is that the Disciples cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, only Christ can do that, so has Christ commanded us to do what we cannot do?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsNo, of course not. Do you believe the baptism Christ commanded His disciples to do is the same baptism mentioned here:

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Veretax
May 6th 2009, 12:00 AM
No, of course not. Do you believe the baptism Christ commanded His disciples to do is the same baptism mentioned here:

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


That's an interesting point, I hadn't contemplated. We are baptized into body by one Spirit, that's clearly the Holy Spirit, by God/Christ I believe, so what then do you take to mean from the great commission where christ instructed them to be baptized etc.... Oh man this is starting to give me a headache LOL

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 04:48 AM
I have noticed a lot of discussion on Acts 10 and its really easy to explain and keep water baptism in the mix.

As we all should know Acts 9 and prior the gospel was only being preached to the Jews... so far it was considered that there was still that difference between Jews and Gentiles.

This can clearly be seen in Acts 10:28 "8He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him..."

Peter still had it in his mind up until he had the vision that he should have nothing to do with Gentiles nor should the Gospel be preached unto them...

Thus God gave them the spirit before water baptism to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles was now accepted. We see this in verse 45

"45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles."

They was astonished because they thought of Gentiles as unclean and not Gods chosen people. Even after this event the Jews and even Peter had trouble with this note Gal 2:11-ff

This was a one time thing to prove to Peter and the Jews that Gentiles now was accepted before God. Notice Acts 11:1-18 notably 18

"18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Its quite obvious that this wasn't the norm and that this did occur after water baptism rather than before because as its already been pointed out Peter commaded them to be baptized into water... and notice the words he used.

" Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days."

From the verses mentioned above I think God knew that Peter or the Jews with him would

A.) Without the vision Peter or the Jews would have not went into the house of a Gentile without the vision.
B.) Chances are after going they would not have allowed them to obey the Gospel... so to prove to Peter and those present they hey its ok God did this to prove unto them.

Thus Peters statement "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized?" I think the answer before God did this would have been yes they are horrible filthy Gentiles! LOL or something to that affect... but with Gods intervention they knew it was ok.

That's why you have this one and only case of the spirit before Water Baptism...

Thus in all other cases you have the norm which is Acts 2:37-38, 1st Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16; Acts 8(whole chapter is intresting) etc...

So there you have it, it was a one time event to prove once and for all beyond a doubt that God accepts Gentiles the same as Jews... there was no longer a difference between the two Groups... it was as promised to Abraham it would be a blessing for all nations not just one...

Thank-you Uric3...you explained that beatifully. I sense a brother in faith!

all te best...

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 04:58 AM
That's an interesting point, I hadn't contemplated. We are baptized into body by one Spirit, that's clearly the Holy Spirit, by God/Christ I believe, so what then do you take to mean from the great commission where christ instructed them to be baptized etc.... Oh man this is starting to give me a headache LOL

Hi Veretax my friend. It is simple really. Who did Jesus say to baptize in the name of? There only is one Spirit. The spirit convicted me upon hearing the Gospel. It revealed my need for a saviour and repentence. I was then baptized How? in WATER....Thus...By one spirit we were baptized.

The Spirit convicts and then the water cleanses and ultimately the blood saves. The 3 are in agreement and bear witness. (1John 5:8)

all the best...

crossnote
May 6th 2009, 06:10 AM
h

The scripture says... work OUT not work FOR. I wouldn't suggest we can earn salvation by working. I look at it like working out your marriage. Though it was a one time event (the marital union), you work on it to solidify it and make it stronger as you go through your life.

all the best...

yesiree I agree.

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:04 AM
What you're saying is true in general but not in regards to salvation. Abraham was saved and justified by faith and not by water baptism. Agree? Scripture says that we are saved and justified the same way Abraham was.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There's no reason to think that any more is required of us than was required of Abraham and the OT saints when it comes to salvation. Is there an OT gospel and a NT gospel? I don't believe so. There's only one gospel. One way to be saved. This applies to all people from all time. If we put our faith in Christ then we immediately become Christ's and are Abraham's seed. The way that we are baptized into Christ is by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

I agree concerning Abraham however we cannot seem to live by faith.

We cannot seem to follow the faith of God through Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

kay-gee
May 6th 2009, 12:05 PM
What you're saying is true in general but not in regards to salvation. Abraham was saved and justified by faith and not by water baptism. Agree? Scripture says that we are saved and justified the same way Abraham was.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There's no reason to think that any more is required of us than was required of Abraham and the OT saints when it comes to salvation. Is there an OT gospel and a NT gospel? I don't believe so. There's only one gospel. One way to be saved. This applies to all people from all time. If we put our faith in Christ then we immediately become Christ's and are Abraham's seed. The way that we are baptized into Christ is by the baptism with the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

Abraham was a man of faith. He believed God. There in lies the difference. Abraham did not take Gods word and twist and distort it.

Abraham was willing to go ahead and do the unthinkable, against any sort of reason or understanding. Faith only

The anti-water crowd can't accept God commands because it contradicts their human reason.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 02:06 PM
Is there any other way than what Christ has commanded in the following?

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 6th 2009, 05:35 PM
I agree concerning Abraham however we cannot seem to live by faith.

We cannot seem to follow the faith of God through Christ.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsCan you explain what you meant by this and how this relates to this thread?

John146
May 6th 2009, 05:37 PM
Abraham was a man of faith. He believed God. There in lies the difference. Abraham did not take Gods word and twist and distort it.

Abraham was willing to go ahead and do the unthinkable, against any sort of reason or understanding. Faith only

The anti-water crowd can't accept God commands because it contradicts their human reason.

all the best...Show me where scripture teaches that Abraham was saved in a different way than we are. In other words, show me where scripture teaches an OT gospel and a NT gospel. Leave the useless insults out and prove your point with scripture.

John146
May 6th 2009, 05:46 PM
Is there any other way than what Christ has commanded in the following?

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,

God bless you!

FirstfruitsWhere is baptism ever referred to elsewhere in scripture in the sense of being born of water? It's not. It's always referred to as baptism. If Jesus was referring to water baptism there he would have just said "baptism" or "water baptism" or something similar. He would have said "Except a man be baptized in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.". Again, every other time He referred to baptism He used the word baptism and never referred to it in any kind of terms like being "born of water".

If Jesus was really referring to water baptism there then why in the very next verse does He say "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"? Why didn't He say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit"?

Also, Jesus was teaching that before He died and rose again, right? Yet the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet were saved without being baptized in water. How do you reconcile that with with your understanding of John 3:5?

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:28 PM
Can you explain what you meant by this and how this relates to this thread?

Without faith then the Holy spirit cannot be given and there is no point in being baptized.

The holy Spirit cannot dwell in that which is in unbelief.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
May 6th 2009, 07:32 PM
Where is baptism ever referred to elsewhere in scripture in the sense of being born of water? It's not. It's always referred to as baptism. If Jesus was referring to water baptism there he would have just said "baptism" or "water baptism" or something similar. He would have said "Except a man be baptized in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.". Again, every other time He referred to baptism He used the word baptism and never referred to it in any kind of terms like being "born of water".

If Jesus was really referring to water baptism there then why in the very next verse does He say "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"? Why didn't He say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit"?

Also, Jesus was teaching that before He died and rose again, right? Yet the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet were saved without being baptized in water. How do you reconcile that with with your understanding of John 3:5?

Knowing that we cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, how are we then to carry out Christs commandment?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 6th 2009, 10:00 PM
Knowing that we cannot baptize with the Holy Spirit, how are we then to carry out Christs commandment?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsIt doesn't say specifically how to do it seems that back then people were fully immersed in the water before being brought up out of the water so we should do it the same way today. But I'm not sure if that's what you were asking about or not.

kay-gee
May 7th 2009, 02:28 AM
Where is baptism ever referred to elsewhere in scripture in the sense of being born of water? It's not. It's always referred to as baptism. If Jesus was referring to water baptism there he would have just said "baptism" or "water baptism" or something similar. He would have said "Except a man be baptized in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.". Again, every other time He referred to baptism He used the word baptism and never referred to it in any kind of terms like being "born of water".

If Jesus was really referring to water baptism there then why in the very next verse does He say "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"? Why didn't He say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit"?

Also, Jesus was teaching that before He died and rose again, right? Yet the thief on the cross and the woman who anointed Jesus' feet were saved without being baptized in water. How do you reconcile that with with your understanding of John 3:5?

Jesus was talking about the future in John 3:5. The thief on the Cross and the woman with the hair could not be born again to enter a kingdom. There was no Kingdom yet to enter. The kingdom came into being on Pentecost. (Mark 9:1) Peter held the keys to the kingdom (Matt 16:19). What is a key? It is something that opens something. In this case a symbolic key. Peter used the key to open the door to the kindom on Pentecost after the sermon, when he was asked "what shall we do?"(Acts 2:39) 3000 were admitted to the kingdom. How? By water and spirit! He then used the key again when the time had come for Gentiles to be allowed entrance into the kingdom. Thus you have Acts 10, with which you are well aquainted. How? by water and Spirit! Which leads you right back to John 3:5 NO PROBLEM

all the best...

kay-gee
May 7th 2009, 02:46 AM
Show me where scripture teaches that Abraham was saved in a different way than we are. In other words, show me where scripture teaches an OT gospel and a NT gospel. Leave the useless insults out and prove your point with scripture.

I am sorry that you feel insulted. Not my intention. We have to have some sort of resolution here. This seems to be going around in circles!

As for your question...If Mark 16:16 Matt 3:15 Matt 28:19 John 3:5 Acts 2:38 1st Peter 3:21 doesn't say it well enough for you, then I am totally at wits end with it. There is nothing more I can say to you to help you see.

Water baptism for "remission of sins" was not taught anywhere in OT. Not even ONE time! They were under law, animal sacrifices and all that. Remember?

Acts 2:38 brought in a whole new era and plan for salvation.

It is the one we are under today. (Acts 2:39)

Firstfruits
May 7th 2009, 06:48 AM
It doesn't say specifically how to do it seems that back then people were fully immersed in the water before being brought up out of the water so we should do it the same way today. But I'm not sure if that's what you were asking about or not.

You are correct, since we cannot baptize with the Spirit then we can only baptize with water. Christ does the rest.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 7th 2009, 10:31 PM
Jesus was talking about the future in John 3:5.I completely disagree. If that was the case then OT believers cannot enter the kingdom of God. The only way anyone from any time can enter the kingdom of God is by being born again.


The thief on the Cross and the woman with the hair could not be born again to enter a kingdom. There was no Kingdom yet to enter.There wasn't? Jesus didn't seem to think so.

John 18
36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


The kingdom came into being on Pentecost. (Mark 9:1)It came with power on Pentecost but that doesn't mean it came into being that day. As I showed above, Jesus spoke in present tense about His existing kingdom even before He died and obviously before Pentecost.


Peter held the keys to the kingdom (Matt 16:19). What is a key? It is something that opens something. In this case a symbolic key. Peter used the key to open the door to the kindom on Pentecost after the sermon, when he was asked "what shall we do?"(Acts 2:39) 3000 were admitted to the kingdom. How? By water and spirit! He then used the key again when the time had come for Gentiles to be allowed entrance into the kingdom. Thus you have Acts 10, with which you are well aquainted. How? by water and Spirit! Which leads you right back to John 3:5 NO PROBLEM

all the best...How did the OT saints enter the kingdom of God?

John146
May 7th 2009, 10:39 PM
You are correct, since we cannot baptize with the Spirit then we can only baptize with water. Christ does the rest.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsWe can only baptized with water, but Acts 10:43-48 shows us that people can receive and be baptized with the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water. So why insist that it has to be the other way around?

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 03:28 AM
We can only baptized with water, but Acts 10:43-48 shows us that people can receive and be baptized with the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water. So why insist that it has to be the other way around?

There you go. since in Acts 10:43 was not done by people to other people, it was NOT A BAPTISM. It was a falling of the Spirit to demonstrate that God was opening the door to the Gentiles. I've explained this a million times. You're not getting it.

We have a mandate to Baptize. How do we baptize with spirit? Explain to me please I really want to know!

all the best...

Dani H
May 8th 2009, 04:19 AM
There was a lot of dunking happening during and before Jesus time with ritual bathing because it was believed that such things removed sins. You may even describe it as obsessive compulsive. Bath houses and water basins everywhere, and of course only the "in" crowd of society had access to pure and unadulterated water, for the most part.

As a contrast, the after Jesus kind of baptism of people who have trusted Him to be their Savior is the answer of a pure conscience before God and a public statement of "yes I belong to Jesus and yes His blood removed my sin" (not any old water because salvation is attached to the Person of Jesus, not H2O). It's an outward physical expression of an inward spiritual reality.

I got dunked and I'm glad I did. :pp

kay-gee
May 8th 2009, 05:44 AM
There was a lot of dunking happening during and before Jesus time with ritual bathing because it was believed that such things removed sins. You may even describe it as obsessive compulsive. Bath houses and water basins everywhere, and of course only the "in" crowd of society had access to pure and unadulterated water, for the most part.

As a contrast, the after Jesus kind of baptism of people who have trusted Him to be their Savior is the answer of a pure conscience before God and a public statement of "yes I belong to Jesus and yes His blood removed my sin" (not any old water because salvation is attached to the Person of Jesus, not H2O). It's an outward physical expression of an inward spiritual reality.

I got dunked and I'm glad I did. :pp

You are very close DaniHansen. Water does remove the sin, not because there is anything mystical or magical in water H20, but simply because the LORD says it does. That's all part of believing. If one does not believe what God says, then how does one believe IN Him?
The Bible no where talks of an outward sign of a spirital reality. It is for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) Washing away sins (Acts 22:16) Hearts sprinkled clean (Heb 10:22) Clothing us in Christ (Gal 3:27)
You are correct. Salvation is in Christ. The point that people seem to miss, is that Baptism is where you contact the blood of Christ. It is where it makes application to you.
Think of it this way. The medicine will take your ailment away but it is at the pharmacy that you recieve the medicine.

Hope this helps.

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 08:25 AM
We can only baptized with water, but Acts 10:43-48 shows us that people can receive and be baptized with the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water. So why insist that it has to be the other way around?

I say, as does Jesus, that we must have both.

Jn 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
May 8th 2009, 09:28 PM
There you go. since in Acts 10:43 was not done by people to other people, it was NOT A BAPTISM.The baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit to a new believer.


We have a mandate to Baptize. How do we baptize with spirit? Explain to me please I really want to know!We don't, Jesus does. And He doesn't do it with water. He does it with the Holy Spirit. That's what you're missing.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus mentioned getting baptized with water and then said that they would be getting baptized with the Holy Ghost. When the Spirit fell on them and they received the Spirit that is when the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred. In the case of Acts 10:43-48, this occurred before they were baptized in water which shows that being baptized with the Holy Spirit does not have to come after water baptism.

Firstfruits
May 8th 2009, 09:51 PM
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit to a new believer.

We don't, Jesus does. And He doesn't do it with water. He does it with the Holy Spirit. That's what you're missing.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus mentioned getting baptized with water and then said that they would be getting baptized with the Holy Ghost. When the Spirit fell on them and they received the Spirit that is when the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred. In the case of Acts 10:43-48, this occurred before they were baptized in water which shows that being baptized with the Holy Spirit does not have to come after water baptism.

Do you agree that as far as Christ has commanded we must have both?

Firstfruits

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 12:44 AM
We can only baptized with water, but Acts 10:43-48 shows us that people can receive and be baptized with the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water. So why insist that it has to be the other way around?


The Apostles taught that it was the other way around. We have a single incident where the Spirit was given before water baptism. We have Peter's own words that in this event God was showing him that salvation had gone to the gentiles. God is the king and makes the rules, if God steps outside of the rules He has set for us, does that mean that we are no longer bound by the rules that God has set? Are we to understand that in Acts 10 God was actually nullifying the teaching given by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. We have clear Apostolic teaching on the issue of baptism, do we throw that out of the window because God chose to do something differently? If as head of my household, I tell my children do not go out in the yard, them I myself go out in the yard, does that now mean my children can go in the yard and disregard my command?

kay-gee
May 9th 2009, 01:19 AM
[

quote=John146;2067893]The baptism with the Holy Spirit is done by Jesus with the Holy Spirit to a new believer.

We don't, Jesus does. And He doesn't do it with water. He does it with the Holy Spirit. That's what you're missing.


Then why did he instruct HIS DISCIPLES to baptize?


Jesus mentioned getting baptized with water and then said that they would be getting baptized with the Holy Ghost. When the Spirit fell on them and they received the Spirit that is when the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred. In the case of Acts 10:43-48, this occurred before they were baptized in water which shows that being baptized with the Holy Spirit does not have to come after water baptism.[/quote]

Where you are de-railing is that you are reading baptism into the verse that is simply not there. I know it is because of your zeal to make scripture fit your doctrine.
If a tree fell on you would you say that you had been baptized in it? You are making te Bible say someting it simply does not say.
The word baptize does not even appear in the passage until verse 47...SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE THE WATER FOR THEM TO BE BAPTIZED. Eph.4:5 says there is one baptism. I thought that we were agreed on that!

Peter is actually saying here that GOD has obviously shown that these Gentiles are open to the promise now as were the Jews. Can we prevent them from being saved as well. NO we cannot refuse them. Get them to the WATER!

all the best...

Firstfruits
May 9th 2009, 10:30 AM
We know that before Christs death that the meaning of baptism was not the same as when he died and the meaning it holds for us now, if however we do not abide in the doctrine of the Apostles as they abided in Christ then who can we follow?

Mt 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

It was after the work of salvation was completed that Christs commision was given, it is this the disciples did and what was steadfastly followed.

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

What happened after they were baptized?

Acts 19:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Acts 8:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Acts 8:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 8:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Then laid They Their hands on Them, and They received The Holy Ghost.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

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