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questionmark
May 2nd 2009, 04:01 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.

BroRog
May 2nd 2009, 04:45 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.

Have you read the New Testament?

questionmark
May 2nd 2009, 04:51 PM
yes ive read the new testament

BroRog
May 2nd 2009, 04:56 PM
yes ive read the new testament

Learn to recognize the original, then you won't be fooled by copies. :)

questionmark
May 2nd 2009, 04:59 PM
Original? I'm sorry i don't understand. I have a bible, and i've read it actively since i was able to read. Is there imposters out there? Plus, i need your thought on the other "saviors."

Athanasius
May 2nd 2009, 05:42 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.

Well, the details of those 'saviors' are historically completely incorrect and falsified, any student of history who didn't hop on the Zeitgeist bandwagon knows this. Though we'd have to go through them one by one to show why (it's not too hard) these 'saviors' aren't comparable to Jesus and lack any historical backing for the claims made. I don't foresee this thread being closed (you never know though?), why would you be worried about that?

I would also like to note that there are eye witness testimonies for Jesus.

BroRog
May 2nd 2009, 06:01 PM
Original? I'm sorry i don't understand. I have a bible, and i've read it actively since i was able to read. Is there imposters out there? Plus, i need your thought on the other "saviors."

Yes, Jesus said that after him would come impostors saying, "I am the Christ." Jesus is the real, actual savior. There is no other besides him by which we can find eternal life.

And I agree with Xel'naga. There are many factual errors in such websites as the one you presented.

questionmark
May 2nd 2009, 06:35 PM
Bandwagon? Zeitgeist!?! These both suggest that i'm included in the spirit of time (Zeit-time geist-spirit hahaha). I currently live in the bible belt where i am a minority. Not that it would matter because we all live in a dominating Christian nation. Pretty insulting to suggest i am not a real student of history, how dare i think outside the box. Though, thank you for your very inciteful point of view. It shall help ye make ye decision.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

Well here's another one. This website is maintained by multi faith based web masters. Including Christians.

BroRog
May 2nd 2009, 06:41 PM
Bandwagon? Zeitgeist!?! These both suggest that i'm included in the spirit of time (Zeit-time geist-spirit hahaha). I currently live in the bible belt where i am a minority. Not that it would matter because we all live in a dominating Christian nation. Pretty insulting to suggest i am not a real student of history, how dare i think outside the box. Though, thank you for your very inciteful point of view. It shall help ye make ye decision.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

Well here's another one. This website is maintained by multi faith based web masters. Including Christians.

You may have misunderstood. Xel'Naga's reference was to a documentary called Zeitgeist, which has been around for a year or so, and talks about the things you mentioned. You aren't the first person to bring this subject here. :)

questionmark
May 2nd 2009, 06:47 PM
I have honestly never heard of this movie, and now i understand. Still, inconclusive to the subject at hand. although i do feel the "heat" of emotions.

Athanasius
May 2nd 2009, 07:46 PM
Bandwagon? Zeitgeist!?! These both suggest that i'm included in the spirit of time (Zeit-time geist-spirit hahaha). I currently live in the bible belt where i am a minority. Not that it would matter because we all live in a dominating Christian nation. Pretty insulting to suggest i am not a real student of history, how dare i think outside the box. Though, thank you for your very inciteful point of view. It shall help ye make ye decision.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

Well here's another one. This website is maintained by multi faith based web masters. Including Christians.

You're welcome to 'think outside the box' all you like, I'm still going to question whether or not the views you've come up with (or adopted from others) - while 'thinking outside the box' - are warranted, historical beliefs given the information available. If indeed you are a real student of history (I apologize if I insinuated otherwise) then you won't mind examining the claims of both the aforementioned websites (focusing more on religious tolerance since they say the same thing and it's easier to sort through).

I would like to mention my uncertainty of an article written almost exclusively from Harpur's Pagan Christ and Google (see footnote 6). The issue with Harpur's book is that the foundation for his writing - Higgins, Massey and Kuhn - is predicated upon poor history, even worse research on the part of the aforementioned authors. Another author who held to the above beliefs is Miller, however his views are equally as mistaken (and unfortunately cited).

So lets go through a few things, I'll post what I know and you can perhaps come back and substantiate your view, perhaps I'm overlooking pertinent historical documents. Oh and by the way, there is no 'heat' of emotions - I simply enjoy a good debate; examinations of my beliefs as they are challenged by those around me. Anyway... Let's deal with a few claims.

1. Horus was born of a virgin, the only begotten son of the God Osiris whose mother was Isis-Meri.

In reviewing the 'birth narrative' of Horus I'm actually unable to find anything remotely similar to the claim above or to the birth narrative of Jesus. The 'birth narrative' of Horus as held in Egyptian mythology is as follows:
"But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it. The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702]
You'll find that Isis and Osiris were married; there's nothing too virginal about that (hence, no comparison to Jesus' birth narrative). There is absolutely nothing in the Horus myth to suggest 'only begotten son' status and furthermore 'Isis-Meri' is not the name 'Mary'.

2. Both had 'foster fathers' named Joseph (Seb).

Seb (or Geb) was the father of Osiris, who was the father of Horus. Seb (Geb) being a distinct name from Joseph. I can provide links to this if you wish, however, it's fairly common knowledge.

3. Both of royal descent.

No disagreement here.

4. Horus and Jesus were both born in caves.

I haven't found any stories claiming Horus was born in a cave. Rather, he was born in a swamp.

5. Birth was announced by angels, stars and shepherds.

Nothing in the Horus account of angels, stars or shepherds.

6. Birth date, winter solstice.

Horus was born the 31st day of the Egyptian month Khoiak, what we would call November 15th. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th...

Now, I could keep going with this but do you see my point? There is absolutely no historical substantiation of any of the claimed similarities between Horus and Jesus, in fact there are examples above of such poor historical inquiry that there are factual details that are wrong (such as Seb (Geb) being the father of Horus). The fact of the matter is that if I kept going down the list (and this would be the same for Mithra, Dionysus, Krishna, etc.) we would come to the same conclusions - these claims are fictional, unsupported and not believed (initially) by the cultures these beliefs originate in.

Now on the other hand there is quite a lot supporting the view that Jesus existed as a historical person, that is a real good discussion if you're willing to get into it. As for the above, well, unfortunately to say it's shoddy. You know what they say, how can I fully understand, appreciate and defend my views if I don't also understand those views contrary and inimical to mine?

By the way, I'm not a fan of the King James Bible ;) Too many 'ye's'.

karenoka27
May 2nd 2009, 09:16 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.
Hi and welcome.
I'm curious as to why you say there were no eye witnesses for Jesus Christ and you say you have read the New Testament.
There is but one Savior,God's Son Jesus Christ. You mentioned you wanted some of our thoughts on "other" saviors. Since this is a Christian message board we only know of One Savior,Jesus Christ the Son of the One True Living God.

Do you have any questions about Him? We would love to answer those.
Praying for you since you have read the Bible, you have read the truth. Hope you find it in your heart to accept it.:hug:

Dani H
May 2nd 2009, 09:25 PM
1 John 1

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.

There is an eyewitness for you from one of the men who was closest to the Savior (and was testified to be by other accounts, such as noted in the Gospels by Matthew, Mark and Luke).

So, I'm really not quite certain where your "no eyewitness testimony" is rooted in?

:)

th1bill
May 2nd 2009, 11:14 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.
... The notation that there are no eye witness accounts, be provably false, was bound to draw fire right away. Every student of Christianity 101 will chuckle at that one. But I'm going to just go to the heart of the issue because debating with an intentional unbeliever is foolishness anyway. You can read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Philippians 'til the cows come home by themselves to be milked and you'll still laugh at all five witnesses.
... First point and all important is, "You must do something about the work Jesus did on the cross, in your behalf, before you an ever satisfy your desire to know the truth." You see, it's simple, it's just like being being an American. You and I are both Americans (and I'm assuming that you have not been to war, yet) and as such I fully appreciate this country and except you learn what I know (may God forbid) you will never love this country and these people the way I do. You cannot even understand what I am saying because you've never picked your best friend up, from across the landscape and placed all the pieces you could find in a body bag for his parents to bury.
... In that same way, you have refused to deal with God about your eternal destination and until you do God will not give you the knowledge that I seek for you to have. It's just like combat, you can watch the John Wayne movies 'til those cows come home but until you've taken that weapon in your hand and tried to kill that man that is bent on killing you, you'll only have an empty image of the truth. In the same way, you can read the Bible and watch Christians make mistakes until the Rapture passes but until you approach the Master of the universe on His terms He will not speak with you.
... Second and last point, pick up a copy of the single volume edition of the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, over 99% of the known extra-biblical proofs kown to man are there-in. Because there is a complete bibliography for the statements in that book, be prepared to spend the next five years researching the reasons for eating your words.
... Most of all, I have prayed for God to bless you with the desire to find the truth of this matter and to meet me in Heaven.

TrophyofGrace
May 3rd 2009, 12:51 AM
Did Jesus exist? Yes, He does....

The hymnwriter wrote:


I serve a risen Saviour,
He's in the world today;
I know that He is living,
Whatever men may say;
I see His hand of mercy,
I hear His voice of cheer,
And just the time I need Him
He's always near.

Chorus:

He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives
today!
He walks with me and He talks with me
Along life's narrow way.
He lives, He live, salvation to impart!
You ask me how I know He lives:
He lives within my heart.

Every saved person is a first person eyewitness of sorts...imo.

bagofseed
May 3rd 2009, 01:42 AM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.
He is coming shortly, you can ask Him for you self.

forum lurker
May 3rd 2009, 07:15 AM
Sorry if my reply seemed rude, but the truth is, no credible historian would deny that a man named Jesus once lived and was crucified.

What He did during his life is where most historians have disagreements.

You brought up these myths - what's your theory, why are there so many resembling Jesus? Why do so many ancient cultures have a flood story?

Why didn't they come up with a compeltely unique myth and a completely unique datural disaster story to stand out? ;)

apothanein kerdos
May 3rd 2009, 05:30 PM
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#mithra

This link describes the many "Saviors" of different cultures. All are before the time of Christ. I would like to hear your take. If this gets deleted i'll know why, but i'll understand. I would like to note that there are no eye witness testimonies for Jesus at all.


What I find so utterly fascinating about the list you provided is that most of it isn't historically verifiable. I don't mean the existence of such men - I mean the beliefs (especially Horis - the story you presented has 0 historical documentation that such a belief ever existed). I mean, aside from mentioning Horis where there is no documentation that the story ever was stated as it's stated today, it also mentions Mithras. Problem with that is Mithras didn't come about until the 1st or 2nd century in the western provinces of Rome. Regardless, the story of Mithras presented on the amateur site you linked isn't the actual story of Mithras.

Then Zoroaster? Zoroaster was a philosopher who taught that the purpose of humanity was to maintain existence, to have good actions and think good deeds. This is almost antithetical to the teachings of Christ, who taught submission to God in order that we might have new minds and deeds. He stated that we can't do anything good without God. So I'm not seeing a connection there.

In fact, ever 'deity' listed on that site - none of those beliefs are historically verifiable. That is, there's no evidence that anyone ever believed the things claimed on that site! Dionysus, for instance, is claimed on the site to have been born December 25 and born in a manger. The problem is there are three birth stories about Dionysus, none of which have to do with being born on a specific date and none of which mention a manger. I could go on, but the site is historically wrong on almost every single point it makes. The biggest irony is the person feels compelled to say, "Aha, this god was born on December 25 as well!" when December 25 isn't even a date found in the Bible for the birth of Christ (and wasn't ascribed to the birth of Christ until almost 4 centuries after the fact). The site has no historical credibility whatsoever.

Finally, aside from the fact that none of what you linked is historically verifiable (not just the people, but the beliefs themselves are inventions of the 20th century), none of it matters anyway! It's all a logical fallacy. You're falling into the trap of the genitive fallacy - because A comes before B and is similar to B, B must follow from A. This, however, isn't necessarily the case. For instance:

1) Rome was a republic
2) The United States was founded as a republic
3) Therefore, the US copied Rome

Logically, this is fallacious. There are also distinguishing marks to show that both the US and Rome are different in their versions of Republicanism, thus making it an error to say the US copied Rome completely. Or, a better example that explains our situation here:

1) The pre-Latin language of Spain is closest in origin to Korean
2) The Korean language is unique, even among Asians
3) Therefore, Korea got its language from pre-Latin Spain

This, of course, is utterly absurd. The two never had contact with each other. There is no historical evidence to suggest that there was trade occurring between these two geographical areas and these two areas alone, such as it would cause a language change in either country.

Therefore, historically speaking, whenever there are points of connection between religions it means nothing. It doesn't mean Christ "copied" some obscure cult (most of which we add beliefs onto in the 21 century, beliefs that didn't exist in the 1st century).

Finally, the original question is also fallacious. There isn't a credible historian that would doubt the existence of at least a historical Jesus. The documentation and extra-biblical statements about him are too vast. Now, you can come out with your internet cited arguments saying, "Well those documents are questionable!", but no legitimate historian has ever questioned the existence of at the very least a historical Jesus.

As an side, I just noticed you said there is no eye witness testimony for the existence of Jesus? Yes, if you throw out all the writings and historical evidence we have from the first two centuries of Christianity, I guess you have a point. But no good historian has done that thankfully.

Mobster: "Well judge, there's no one who saw me do the crime."
Judge: "That's because you killed some and your lawyer had the rest thrown out of court."
Mobster: "That means there are no eye witnesses!"

wanting_peace
May 4th 2009, 01:21 PM
If you believe there are no eye witness accounts, then what is the gospels and the new testament? A hoax that different people collaborated and wrote about? Wouldn't you believe that people have better things to do than to collaborate stories and write what eventually became the bible?

If I'm living back then, I would find better things to do than to spend my time writing the eventual scripture. It leads me to either two conclusions, they either were going to make a ton of money off of it (I doubt it because there were no printing presses back then) or they ultimately believed in God and Jesus and His works. Believed in it enough to spend a great portion of their lives writing about what they witnessed.

If there are no eyewitnesses, you're basically saying the authors of the Bible are going to write elaborate stories on what have been passed on through legacy of other cultures? I don't think so. If it is truly a copycat religion, I wouldn't waste much time writing about this fake person or diety off of hearsay. The writers of the new testament must have been divinely inspired. Would you be inspired enough to write about the Hawaiian goddess Pele or the Greek god Zeus that you've never met personally? Would you honestly be inspired enough to do it for free? Probably not.

Then you have Paul, who never met Jesus while he lived. He conjures up an elaborate story about how he used to be Saul and became Paul. On top of that, he leads the Christian movement. He also is thrown into jail but continues to write scriptures. Either a great imagination in hopes of adding his legacy to the self help book, or he is actually divinely inspired.

The Bible is written over a span of about 1400 to 1800 years. That's a pretty long time frame for people to be writing stories of another culture's religion. I'll give you this scenario - lets say I wrote about "god A," who was conjured up. Would I be able to get stories to be continued to be written about him over that long of a span by other followers? And not only that, the writers have to do it for free.

The historical Jesus was a real person. Too many eye witnesses and followers not for him to have been. Is He the person who he claims to be? You be the judge of that, but he did roam this earth. I doubt multiple people would waste a good portion of their lives writing about someone off of hearsay. Even worse, they're inspired so much by this diety of another culture, that they do it for free. These authors must have been so bored that they wanted to add sequels to other culture's gods. Then they went and spinned it into a self help novel type. It's pretty unfathomable that they would do that. So the authors of the scriptures went and borrowed stories from all parts of the world, and brought it back to their homeland? Writer A went into egypt, india, greece, or wherever, then came back and wrote gospels about their god but claimed him for their own. They didn't do it for the love of another culture's diety whom they claimed as their own, but they did to...? To teach their people how to live right? So you're basically claiming they created parables and folklore for the sole purpose of teaching their race how to live life right...

Either, Christianity and Jesus is a copycat religion that lasted throughout all the years, while the stories of other culture's gods where Jesus supposedly originated from didn't make it mainstream, or those websites are making false claims. In the day and age of the internet, don't believe everything you read. Do real research and get facts. I was on this very board asking the very same questions with links to other sites and videos. If I started a webpage today claiming the numerous eyewitness accounts of Jesus, would you believe it? Even if I just made it up? I mean, it is on a geocities webpage (of all places) so it must be true right? Don't be so easily deceived. Why is it the Hebrew's version of this diety makes it mainstream, lasts throughout, and the multiple gods of other cultures who claim to be the same storied diety, don't last? Usually, isn't it the originals who make the most lasting impression? What is it about the Hebrew version that makes it so revolutionary and special?

Jeffinator
May 7th 2009, 02:27 AM
On that website I noticed that a lot of the "saviors" had similarities that don't make sense. Like a lot them claim to also have been born on the 25th. Jesus was not born on the 25th of December, thats just the day we picked to celebrate His birthday because it used to be a pagan holiday that the Christians wanted to replace. So to say that these other "saviors" were born on that day too is misleading and obviously falsified.

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