PDA

View Full Version : Cremation



djh22
May 3rd 2009, 06:43 PM
Genesis 3:19 states -
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return."

Does that mean cremation is against God's wishes ?

Best wishes,
djh22.

-SEEKING-
May 3rd 2009, 08:56 PM
Genesis 3:19 states -
"With the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, until you return to the ground, for you were taken therefrom, for dust you are, and to dust you will return."

Does that mean cremation is against God's wishes ?

Best wishes,
djh22.

Never heard that before. But I'm guessing probably not. After all, a cremation will in fact turn us to dust.

Athanasius
May 3rd 2009, 09:49 PM
You cremate yourself you turn to dust right away. You don't, you rot and turn to dust anyway. I don't really understand why people object to cremation, not that I'd do it myself.

Prufrock
May 3rd 2009, 09:58 PM
Cremation is not a violation of Gen. 3:19. I do a lot of composting for my feeble attempts at gardening, and one of the best additives to compost is ashes: any kind of ashes. My aged Mother has already given instructions to be cremated after her death (she is the first in my family to do so); were I to add her ashes to my compost heap, or merely sprinkle them over the garden, the ashes would, in fact, be absorbed into the soil, and turn into dust.

Psalms Fan
May 4th 2009, 02:55 AM
It is my understanding that the original objection to cremation was that a person would be doing it out of rejection of the resurrection. But you'd get the same result with enough time. So there really isn't any difference. And we're all going to be raised from the dead, whether we believe in the resurrection or not.

bagofseed
May 4th 2009, 03:00 AM
Does God intend to reuse the same dust?

What if my dust was once used by someone else?
Do we have to share or is it first come first served?

Psalms Fan
May 4th 2009, 03:08 AM
Does God intend to reuse the same dust?

What if my dust was once used by someone else?
Do we have to share or is it first come first served?

I've thought about that before. What if the stuff making up my body were once part of someone else, or maybe a squirrel. But I figure that God had that in mind too when He planned our resurrection. However it works, I'm sure that God has it figured out.

crossnote
May 4th 2009, 05:20 AM
Many a martyr were cremated.

HisLeast
May 4th 2009, 05:22 AM
They can cremate my body or leave it out in the street to rot for all I care. Just don't wake me up!!

Prufrock
May 4th 2009, 05:23 AM
Many a martyr were cremated.
Yes, amen, and many people have perished in fires, or been blown apart on the battlefield. There were undoubtedly Christians who were incinerated or atomized at Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki.I hardly think that this jeopardized their status in the resurrection.

Teke
May 4th 2009, 03:11 PM
Many a martyr were cremated.

Yea, and the Lord said, "vengence is mine".

There is a good book on the subject titled "Dust to Dust or Ashes to Ashes" by Alvin J Schmidt. A biblical and Christian examination of cremation.
Plenty of scripture on the subject.

I believe it has more to do with the treatment of the body. As our actions express our hearts.
Would we want to look like such as those who burned Christian martyrs.

RabbiKnife
May 4th 2009, 03:57 PM
I support Soylent Green.

You are what you eat.

Prufrock
May 4th 2009, 05:42 PM
I believe it has more to do with the treatment of the body. As our actions express our hearts.
Yes, and I believe in my heart that this earthly body is merely a shell, which does not need to be artificially decorated with hideous cosmetics or encased in bronze coffins after the soul has departed. I do not have contempt for my physical body, which was designed by God; but neither do I have any great reverence for it, except as the temple of the Holy Spirit. When it ceases to fulfill that function, the compost heap would suit me just fine. By the way, if anyone really wants to push the "dust to dust" aspect, then they should logically oppose embalming, which delays the process.


Would we want to look like such as those who burned Christian martyrs.The Christian martyrs were not cremated; they were burned alive at the stake. I'm not planning to do that to my Mother. Her cremation will be conducted in the same "funeral parlor" that handles earth burials, with the same respect and consideration, including a memorial service.

Do we want to look like the heathen Egyptians, who dressed up their corpses, put cosmetics on them, and buried them in extravagant and gaudy structures? Because that's precisely what's done with corpses in today's funeral industry. Have you checked the price of a high-quality coffin and burial lately?

Teke
May 4th 2009, 06:04 PM
Prufrock, they do also oppose embalming. But the law of the land says it must be. So it's only necessary according to the governing authorities.

Your saying you'd be ok with watching one of your loved ones burn in a fire, whether dead or alive.
With cremation, the loved ones don't actually see them being burnt up. So it's not so big a deal.

I'm not saying everyone has such options when they die, but if you did....would you bend to secularism.

Prufrock
May 4th 2009, 06:22 PM
Prufrock, they do also oppose embalming. But the law of the land says it must be. So it's only necessary according to the governing authorities.
That's true, of course; I was just saying that they should oppose it, not refuse to do it.


Your saying you'd be ok with watching one of your loved ones burn in a fire, whether dead or alive. LOL! No, I'm not planning to watch my Mother's corpse being consumed by the flames. I wouldn't even care to see my cat consumed by flames. But, if you didn't read my original post, I might repeat that my Mother arranged her cremation herself: although she consulted her children about it, it was her own decision. As for the disposition of my own magnificent frame when I die, my only concern is that it be done inexpensively. Frankly, I don't care if my loved ones put my body in a garbage bag, and set it out on the curb! I'll be with the Lord!


With cremation, the loved ones don't actually see them being burnt up. So it's not so big a deal.

I'm not saying everyone has such options when they die, but if you did....would you bend to secularism.I don't understand your question. I don't see where secularism comes into the discussion at all. Could you explain, please?

Teke
May 4th 2009, 07:05 PM
I don't see where secularism comes into the discussion at all. Could you explain, please?

Many church members have come to think that "ashes to ashes" (from the Book of Common Prayer)refers to cremation. A faulty conclusion, I think from as far back as 1874 when Sir Henry Thompson cited those words in support of his cremation advocacy.

Before the 1500's Christians would never have thought to cremate a body.
Scripture is full of examples of burying the dead, not burning them as pagans did. Even in the first century, the Roman writer Tacitua wrote that the Hebrews "bury rather than burn dead bodies".

Indeed reverance is given to the body itself in scripture. Joseph's bones were carried by the Israelites for forty years until they reached the promised land.

And so it is secular to not give reverance to the body itself.

Cremation/burning
for the accursed- Lev. 20:14, 21:9, Josh. 7:15
as an instrument of God's wrath-Num. 11:1-3, 16:35
Elijah called down fire to consume King Ahaziah's two groups of 50 men. 2 Kings1:10-12
There is also the golden calf incident.

Burning a body is sinful according to scripture about God.
"For three sins of Moab, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath, because he burned, as if to lime, the bones of Edom's king. I will send fire upon Moab that will consume the fortresses of Kerioth" Amos 2:1,2

King Josiah, burned pagan altars as well as burning the bones of pagan Bal priests. 2 Kings 23:16,20, 2 Chron. 34:5
But when he came to a tomb and it was told him that it contained the bones of a "man of God", he said "leave it alone. Don't let anyone disturb his bones". 2 Kings 23:17,18

Point is that we are to have respect for the human body. A most wonderous creation of God are His vessels. Even the Son of God came in a prepared body.

Prufrock
May 4th 2009, 07:14 PM
Many church members have come to think that "ashes to ashes" (from the Book of Common Prayer)refers to cremation. A faulty conclusion, I think from as far back as 1874 when Sir Henry Thompson cited those words in support of his cremation advocacy.
Thank you for your very informative reply. I appreciate your time!

crossnote
May 5th 2009, 05:23 AM
I suppose I could throw a monkey into this wrench (ug) and put forward this verse in light of the insignificance(?) of the dead body.

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
(Jud 1:9)

Why the dispute over the body of Moses if it is only a dead carcass?

Prufrock
May 5th 2009, 05:33 AM
I suppose I could throw a monkey into this wrench (ug) and put forward this verse in light of the insignificance(?) of the dead body.

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
(Jud 1:9)

Why the dispute over the body of Moses if it is only a dead carcass?

That's a very good question, for which I don't have an answer. But, as you know, you've quoted one of the most cryptic, mysterious verses in the entire Bible; people have been discussing it for centuries. I don't claim to know what it means.

But I do know that cryptic, mysterious verses, especially ones that seem to have no cross-references, are a poor place to look for doctrine. I know the doctrine is there, but I'm not sure it's been revealed to the church yet.

There are plenty of things in the Bible that we probably won't understand until we get to Heaven. I'm not trying to duck your question; I'm very freely acknowledging that I don't know what it means! Can you explain it to me?

TrophyofGrace
May 5th 2009, 12:00 PM
I suppose I could throw a monkey into this wrench (ug) and put forward this verse in light of the insignificance(?) of the dead body.

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
(Jud 1:9)

Why the dispute over the body of Moses if it is only a dead carcass?



I don't know, but I've heard the explanation that perhaps if Satan got ahold of Moses' corpse he would have somehow made it into an object of idol worship and that's also why God buried Moses Himself?

Teke
May 5th 2009, 01:30 PM
I suppose I could throw a monkey into this wrench (ug) and put forward this verse in light of the insignificance(?) of the dead body.

But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
(Jud 1:9)

Why the dispute over the body of Moses if it is only a dead carcass?


I believe TrophyofGrace made a valid point. God buried Moses.

Someone said they didn't think there was scripture reference, but consider that Moses in prophecying about Jesus said, "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deut. 18:15

If we liken them, neither one's body is to be found by man.

crossnote
May 6th 2009, 06:17 AM
Can you explain it to me?

My question was honestly asked to bring out the possibility that there is more importance on the body than what comes easy to our gnostic/greek way of thinking (compared to Jewish thought). No, I honestly don't know.

Tonton
May 6th 2009, 11:02 AM
I support Soylent Green.

You are what you eat.

Eeeu! You're giving away your age here. Last I saw this movie was in the eighties?

Anton

Teke
May 6th 2009, 01:17 PM
That's a very good question, for which I don't have an answer. But, as you know, you've quoted one of the most cryptic, mysterious verses in the entire Bible; people have been discussing it for centuries. I don't claim to know what it means.

But I do know that cryptic, mysterious verses, especially ones that seem to have no cross-references, are a poor place to look for doctrine. I know the doctrine is there, but I'm not sure it's been revealed to the church yet.

There are plenty of things in the Bible that we probably won't understand until we get to Heaven. I'm not trying to duck your question; I'm very freely acknowledging that I don't know what it means! Can you explain it to me?

This incident is apparently taken from the pseudepigraphal book The Assumption of Moses (see Deut. 34:5,6 for the possibility of the assumption of Moses; also Zech. 3:1,2) The people of God are defended by holy angels. This is also a gracious warning to believers concerning vehement accusations against God's enemies: let God judge. Michael showed this restraint even though he was dealing with the devil himself.

The dispute may have taken place after the death of Moses and his burial by God. For "death reigned from Adam to [until] Moses" (Rom. 5:14)

So perhaps the devil claimed Moses for the death state, but God raised him as representative of those hereafter to be raised, as Elijah of those to be caught up without dying.

This could be the Jewish understanding, as we read of both Elijah and Moses with Jesus at the Transfiguration.

Let your faith decide. This is what information I have.:)

grit
May 6th 2009, 01:30 PM
"or maybe a squirrel"! :o :rofl:

So, did we mention 2 Kings 13:20-21 (http://bible.cc/2_kings/13-21.htm) ?

And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet. - KJV
Now, I'm not one who finds in either God's burial of Moses or the Levitical proscriptions against whoring and lying with the mother of one's wife a condemnation of cremation; though I think it's important to note the valuable insight gained from the Jewish practice of burial and it's seeming sanction from God.

Given the apparent environmentally friendly nature of cremation, it's practical applications regarding both disease and land management, I'm inclined to think cremation may actually be a matter of better stewardship of both our bodies and the Earth. If we are considered to err in burning the dead, I think it's worthwhile to also note how we've previously erred in aspects of preserving them, or rather venerating them.

The Roman Catholic church put an especially high premium on relics of the saints, for example, and often used the above passage of Scripture to great avail.

Now, as an aside, I know this is a site supportive of miracles, as am I, but there is a great historical tendency to get quite a bit carried away with hopes, dreams, desperations, and flat-out contradictions to the propriety of such we find in the Scriptures. Never mind the birth pangs of Protestantism from the abuses of holy relics in Martin Luther’s day. Just one tale merits repeating for highlighting how extravagantly out-of-order we Christians have abused God’s design.

St. Augustine, in his City of God (and as later valuably commentated by Benjamin B. Warfield in Counterfeit Miracles), recounts how in 415 A.D., 300 years after the death of the martyr Stephen, blessed Stephen’s bones were said to have been discovered by a priest who had a dream telling him where they could be found. They were then taken on tour, where even the flowers placed upon the bones were said to immediately heal blindness and convert the heathen (when placed under their pillow). They cured cancer, raised the dead, and healed gout wherever they went. Augustine, of whom both John Calvin and myself admirably otherwise credit quite a lot of sound theology, said, “Think, beloved, what the Lord must have in store for us in the land of the living, when He bestows so much in the ashes of the dead.”

Again, I’m not disputing the continuing power of God in the lives of His saints, but in Luther’s day the practice of venerating such supposed relics reached such a fevered pitch as to warrant the Reformation and make any godly person wish for the cremation of their bones, lest such distract from the worship due to God alone.

I don't know, maybe we should just burn famous people? But then there would surely be some industry spring up claiming to mix the ashes with wine or a sports drink for special powers of prowess. Pick up your bottle of Lincoln Water and Washington Wine at the Whitehouse mezzanine.

karenoka27
May 6th 2009, 01:47 PM
I didn't see this verse shared so I thought I would add it:

Genesis 50:26-"So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt."

I think there was a certain kind of respect for the dead. That is why they were buried. Some of the people mentioned in this thread were not followers of God that were burned. However as was also mentioned, some were martyrs. God knows.

My girlfriend has had some bad luck with cremation. Her grandmother was cremated and the ashes were brought back to the nursing home she had been in. Because my friend didn't get back to the nursing home in their time to clean out her room,they did,throwing much of the stuff away,including the ashes. She tried to track them down and was led to the town dump. She never did find them.
Her grandfather recently died. When she went to pick up the ashes they handed her two bags! The ashes weighed 11 pounds! She asked if they had done a cleaning of the burner. When her father was cremated, the ashes only weighed 4 lbs. Go figure.

I'm sure glad it is our soul God takes and not the body!:rolleyes:

Teke
May 6th 2009, 02:04 PM
"or maybe a squirrel"! :o :rofl:

So, did we mention 2 Kings 13:20-21 (http://bible.cc/2_kings/13-21.htm) ?

And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet. - KJV
Now, I'm not one who finds in either God's burial of Moses or the Levitical proscriptions against whoring and lying with the mother of one's wife a condemnation of cremation; though I think it's important to note the valuable insight gained from the Jewish practice of burial and it's seeming sanction from God.

Given the apparent environmentally friendly nature of cremation, it's practical applications regarding both disease and land management, I'm inclined to think cremation may actually be a matter of better stewardship of both our bodies and the Earth. If we are considered to err in burning the dead, I think it's worthwhile to also note how we've previously erred in aspects of preserving them, or rather venerating them.

The Roman Catholic church put an especially high premium on relics of the saints, for example, and often used the above passage of Scripture to great avail.

Now, as an aside, I know this is a site supportive of miracles, as am I, but there is a great historical tendency to get quite a bit carried away with hopes, dreams, desperations, and flat-out contradictions to the propriety of such we find in the Scriptures. Never mind the birth pangs of Protestantism from the abuses of holy relics in Martin Luther’s day. Just one tale merits repeating for highlighting how extravagantly out-of-order we Christians have abused God’s design.

St. Augustine, in his City of God (and as later valuably commentated by Benjamin B. Warfield in Counterfeit Miracles), recounts how in 415 A.D., 300 years after the death of the martyr Stephen, blessed Stephen’s bones were said to have been discovered by a priest who had a dream telling him where they could be found. They were then taken on tour, where even the flowers placed upon the bones were said to immediately heal blindness and convert the heathen (when placed under their pillow). They cured cancer, raised the dead, and healed gout wherever they went. Augustine, of whom both John Calvin and myself admirably otherwise credit quite a lot of sound theology, said, “Think, beloved, what the Lord must have in store for us in the land of the living, when He bestows so much in the ashes of the dead.”

Again, I’m not disputing the continuing power of God in the lives of His saints, but in Luther’s day the practice of venerating such supposed relics reached such a fevered pitch as to warrant the Reformation and make any godly person wish for the cremation of their bones, lest such distract from the worship due to God alone.

I don't know, maybe we should just burn famous people? But then there would surely be some industry spring up claiming to mix the ashes with wine or a sports drink for special powers of prowess. Pick up your bottle of Lincoln Water and Washington Wine at the Whitehouse mezzanine.

Yes Grit, scripture also gives us examples of what can happen when people get to carried away with holy relics. Israel is our example. They lost the arc which held relics from the wilderness (some manna, Aarons staff, tablets).

Relics, be they a dead body or created material objects, are not to be lifted above God in our vain imagination.

.... the day of thy watchmen [and] thy visitation cometh; ...Micah 7:4 :saint:

crossnote
May 7th 2009, 05:31 AM
I'm sure glad it is our soul God takes and not the body!:rolleyes:


:note: I think He takes both..but just at different times.:note:
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
(1Co 15:53)

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77