I know teen rebellion is common, but I do not know what to do. My 17 yr old son hates me. I mean, he absolutely hates me. I keep finding letters he writes to his girlfriend(s) and one he wrote to me and they are all about how much he hates me and how selfish I am and how I think I am god and he hates church and doesn't believe in God, etc. These are all anger issues, but they seem very unfounded to me. He calls all Christians hyprcrits and says they are ruining the world by trying to tell other people how to live.
I try very hard to be fair and reasonable without compromising Truth and Biblical moral standards. Everyone I have sought counsel from IRL says the same thing "you are doing the right thing" but if I am doing it so right, how is he turning out so WRONG?
His letters are so peppered with profanity I can barely stand to read them. Of course, what he wants and expects is totally unrealistic...complete freedom, never being told NO, no curfews, etc. AND when he is mean to his younger siblings, I am supposed to "let it go" because, according to him "they deserved it".
He is very selfish and mean, I mean VERY and very verbally abusive to his siblings. He even says he is proud to be seflish. I have tried counseling and he is unwilling and uncooperative. Since he rejects God, he will not hear godly counsel. He is a huge hyporcrit, calling me selfish all the time and calling ME a hypocrit.
Honestly, maybe I have been TOO lax, because I expect him to be responsible for himself and that is about all. He says that is unreasonable but yet he wants emancipation. He is obviously naive to what being an adult really is.
I am re-married and we have raised the kids in church from day 1. We practice what we preach and are, really, very sefless people! I do not mean to toot my own horn, but setting the good example is NOT working. I admit when I am wrong and make sure they see I am not perfect.
His language and how he talks to his friends is horrid. He is so angry and his reasons are all very petty. They are HUGE to him but he has probably had it TOO good and is probably spoiled. His biological father is in another state and rarely sees them. We have seriously considered sending him to live with his bio-dad because of how he treats my other 2 kids (they all have the same dad).
He wants to move out as soon as he is 18 and I am all for it but he is taking NO steps towards that goal. He does not even have a driver's license yet. We keep trying to encourage him and have helped him out a lot (more than we should) but he is also "lazy and proud of it" and will not take steps for his OWN goals!
He has abused caffiene a time or two but his drug tests come up clean. He says caffeine is "fun" and harmless called me a hypocrit because I drink one cup of coffee every morning.
I honestly do not know what to do. I love him, but I cannot stand to be around him at this point. All I have been doing, besides constantly seeking counsel from other Christians, is "keep on keeping on" and "kill'em with kindness" and I just treat him well even tho he uses me and says these awful things about me to other people. I am not afriad of confronting him and I don't walk on eggshells.
I really want to send him away, but I don't want him to feel un-loved. I love him, but I do not like him. I know this sounds harsh but this has been going on for YEARS and while we are less than a year away from his 18th, I know he will fall flat on his face when he tries to make it on his own, what am I supposed to do? Emancipation is not an option. I sometimes wish it were.

If it helps I was a total jerk to my parents at that age. Going so far as joining a gang and eventually running away. But God found me one day and made me the man I am today. sometimes you gotta let them go physically but never stop praying for him. If he leaves he'll learn the hard way how much he needs you.

I know teen rebellion is common, but I do not know what to do. My 17 yr old son hates me. I mean, he absolutely hates me. I keep finding letters he writes to his girlfriend(s) and one he wrote to me and they are all about how much he hates me and how selfish I am and how I think I am god and he hates church and doesn't believe in God, etc. These are all anger issues, but they seem very unfounded to me. He calls all Christians hyprcrits and says they are ruining the world by trying to tell other people how to live.
I try very hard to be fair and reasonable without compromising Truth and Biblical moral standards. Everyone I have sought counsel from IRL says the same thing "you are doing the right thing" but if I am doing it so right, how is he turning out so WRONG?
His letters are so peppered with profanity I can barely stand to read them. Of course, what he wants and expects is totally unrealistic...complete freedom, never being told NO, no curfews, etc. AND when he is mean to his younger siblings, I am supposed to "let it go" because, according to him "they deserved it".
He is very selfish and mean, I mean VERY and very verbally abusive to his siblings. He even says he is proud to be seflish. I have tried counseling and he is unwilling and uncooperative. Since he rejects God, he will not hear godly counsel. He is a huge hyporcrit, calling me selfish all the time and calling ME a hypocrit.
Honestly, maybe I have been TOO lax, because I expect him to be responsible for himself and that is about all. He says that is unreasonable but yet he wants emancipation. He is obviously naive to what being an adult really is.
I am re-married and we have raised the kids in church from day 1. We practice what we preach and are, really, very sefless people! I do not mean to toot my own horn, but setting the good example is NOT working. I admit when I am wrong and make sure they see I am not perfect.
His language and how he talks to his friends is horrid. He is so angry and his reasons are all very petty. They are HUGE to him but he has probably had it TOO good and is probably spoiled. His biological father is in another state and rarely sees them. We have seriously considered sending him to live with his bio-dad because of how he treats my other 2 kids (they all have the same dad).
He wants to move out as soon as he is 18 and I am all for it but he is taking NO steps towards that goal. He does not even have a driver's license yet. We keep trying to encourage him and have helped him out a lot (more than we should) but he is also "lazy and proud of it" and will not take steps for his OWN goals!
He has abused caffiene a time or two but his drug tests come up clean. He says caffeine is "fun" and harmless called me a hypocrit because I drink one cup of coffee every morning.
I honestly do not know what to do. I love him, but I cannot stand to be around him at this point. All I have been doing, besides constantly seeking counsel from other Christians, is "keep on keeping on" and "kill'em with kindness" and I just treat him well even tho he uses me and says these awful things about me to other people. I am not afriad of confronting him and I don't walk on eggshells.
I really want to send him away, but I don't want him to feel un-loved. I love him, but I do not like him. I know this sounds harsh but this has been going on for YEARS and while we are less than a year away from his 18th, I know he will fall flat on his face when he tries to make it on his own, what am I supposed to do? Emancipation is not an option. I sometimes wish it were.

Wow, I feel for you. He sounds alot like my sisters three adoptive kids (two adults now and the youngest just turned 18) and has flunked his drivers ed class..is doing nothing to achieve these same goals so he can move out....though claims he can't wait to move out from under my horrible sister too! ugh. He also is verbally abusive to her. The thing is though all her adopted kids were from abusive homes. Which is why the state had taken them from their bio mom's. I am talking about very serious type of abuse too. When this happens to a baby it causes them to have RAD...reactive attachment disorder...they don't bond like they should and as a result it causes all sort of major behavioral problems. This can happen in babies that were very sick or premature where the parents couldn't be with them much while they were in the hospital....any chance that happened with your son?

The other times I have seen kids this bad was due to a mental illnesses...many times bipolar which can run in families. Also other types of problems like this. I used to belong to this message board for parents of children and teens with behavioral problems like this: http://www.conductdisorders.com/

Its a really good board but its not a per say Christian board..there are Christians on it but also many of other beliefs or none at all but most are pretty nice. You can get some ideas of how to get help for your son...get him tested and checked to see if this is something like ADHD that went on to develop into a conduct disorder of some type. Just figure out what is going on with him. I think this is going too far to be just simply teen rebellion.

I also want you to consider learning about spiritual warfare. Read my thread here about what I went through with my son and I hope something there can help you: Spiritual Warfare for our children (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=7171&highlight=Spiritual+warfare+children)

You and your family will be in my prayers. I hear the hurt and frustration and I know that all too well...

God bless

He is a TEENAGER. HE HAS NO RIGHTS!

1. Take the door to his room off the hinges. He doesn't have a right to a door.
2. Take all "his stuff" out of "his room." This is no longer "his room." This is where you permit him to sleep.
3. Put a pillow, a sheet, and a clean blanket on the floor. If he earns it by good behavior, he can use a mattress in about two weeks.
4. Each night, place the clothing he is to wear the next day at the door to the room in which he is permitted to sleep.
5. No electronics, no phone, no motorcar, not a single luxury...Like Robinson Crusoe, it's primitive as can be.

He can either grow up or fail.

He is a TEENAGER. HE HAS NO RIGHTS!

1. Take the door to his room off the hinges. He doesn't have a right to a door.
2. Take all "his stuff" out of "his room." This is no longer "his room." This is where you permit him to sleep.
3. Put a pillow, a sheet, and a clean blanket on the floor. If he earns it by good behavior, he can use a mattress in about two weeks.
4. Each night, place the clothing he is to wear the next day at the door to the room in which he is permitted to sleep.
5. No electronics, no phone, no motorcar, not a single luxury...Like Robinson Crusoe, it's primitive as can be.

He can either grow up or fail.

This is what they tell many parents on that parent message board with kids like this...but I would recommend it be done only he is tested and other problems are ruled out and only done under the guidance of a therapist. The reasons being with teens like this that many times are bigger and stronger then their own parents, can get violent. The parents have to be ready literally for anything..including calling the police. Its very easy to say, well ok just call 911...not so easy when you are being physically attacked and the phone is knocked out of your hand and broken...not so easy if they come after you with a bat or something else...not so easy to get away if someone bigger and stronger then you has you cornered and yes I have seen post on that board where it came to that. The parents have to have a plan in place because a teen this angry will blow....

Just having them hauled off to juvie isn't always the answer either...not if a mental illness is involved and many times it is. What normal, happy, healthy teen acts like this? They don't. There are red flags all over the place he is out of control already and needs help...how much and how far it needs to go is yet to be seen.

I tried some of this 'tough love' with my son...though he was very young and I never took it this far...it always backfired...always. The only thing that finally helped was spiritual warfare. Not this power control stuff.

I would be very careful in doing this...as I said a plan needs to be made for the worse reactions. If he has a therapist and a plan in place and gets out of control and the police are called, instead of going to juvie he can be taken to a mental health hospital that deals with teens like this and tested ...find out what is going on with him and a plan made. PS. I don't think you can legally take their mattress and make them sleep on the hard floor...he would call CPS and that would likely be seen as child abuse.

God bless

Thanks for your replies. I have read our states emancipation laws because he wants to be emancipated. There is no way that is going to happen. I do know there are certain things you HAVE to do for your child, having a mattress is one of them. We have removed his door before when he slams it. I have taken away his personal effects.
Yes, he is bigger and stronger than me.
I have told him, that until he is 18, this is a dictatorship and what we say goes. We are very firm and consistent, which is why (I think) his antics get worse and worse, he is trying to find our breaking point.
My dad is a Christian counselor (has all kinds of degrees) and he says my son has a personality disorder. He said it is not so much a behavior issue as a character/personality issue. All we can really do is pray and bide (sp) our time and be prepared to call the police if he gets violent. He HAS fought me before, but in a defensive way (I was trying to take something away from him).
No, he was not a premie but I was a teen mom and I have always wondered about this. I was 16 when I had him. My first marriage was verbally abusive and he is just like his dad even tho, since age 6, he has not been raised by his dad. But he is the only one old enough to remember living with his dad and all the fights, not to mention I was really a bad mom back then. This was before I came to Christ, it is a long story. I am sure his early childhood was not very good for him.
I will write more later.
I cried most the day yesterday and prayed a lot. God answered my prayers in the counsel of my dad and my husband came home early to be with me. As of now, I have a peace about this. God is amazing if I can have peace in my soul when I definitely do NOT have peace with my son.

Thanks for your replies. I have read our states emancipation laws because he wants to be emancipated. There is no way that is going to happen. I do know there are certain things you HAVE to do for your child, having a mattress is one of them. We have removed his door before when he slams it. I have taken away his personal effects.
Yes, he is bigger and stronger than me.
I have told him, that until he is 18, this is a dictatorship and what we say goes. We are very firm and consistent, which is why (I think) his antics get worse and worse, he is trying to find our breaking point.
My dad is a Christian counselor (has all kinds of degrees) and he says my son has a personality disorder. He said it is not so much a behavior issue as a character/personality issue. All we can really do is pray and bide (sp) our time and be prepared to call the police if he gets violent. He HAS fought me before, but in a defensive way (I was trying to take something away from him).
No, he was not a premie but I was a teen mom and I have always wondered about this. I was 16 when I had him. My first marriage was verbally abusive and he is just like his dad even tho, since age 6, he has not been raised by his dad. But he is the only one old enough to remember living with his dad and all the fights, not to mention I was really a bad mom back then. This was before I came to Christ, it is a long story. I am sure his early childhood was not very good for him.
I will write more later.
I cried most the day yesterday and prayed a lot. God answered my prayers in the counsel of my dad and my husband came home early to be with me. As of now, I have a peace about this. God is amazing if I can have peace in my soul when I definitely do NOT have peace with my son.

I am glad you found some support in your family with him...and I hope we can support you too. Yes its very painful to go through this. I hope that parent board can help you and my thread on spiritual warfare...in the end that was the only thing that truly helped my son. I had an verbally abusive husband that put my son through alot too. That kind of thing can affect them deeply as you will see with my post and my son hasn't been around his dad since he was four. Alot of the reason my son acted the way he did was anxiety and feeling unsafe because he had no control....those with anxiety think if they can control the situation, even by getting violent, they will feel better and the inner turmoil will go away. While my son is no longer out of control he still deals with alot of anxiety...and is on medication for it which has helped alot. I tried being extremely strict with him because of his behavior but that made his anxiety worse which made his rages worse. I was trying to get him under control. So what I did was give him a 'sense' of control.

For instance when he got into trouble rather then grounding him for the day, or taking away the TV or whatever where he had no control which made everything worse...instead I would tell him he was grounded until he did some chores...simple things (he was very young so keep that in mind) like mopping the kitchen floor or even cleaning the toilet or tub. As soon as he was done with that he would no longer be grounded...could watch TV, go out and play, etc. This put the ball in his park, so to speak and gave him a 'sense' of control. The end goal though was me letting him know I was the boss, not him. He was not going to run things like he thought he wanted too. Because he was so rebellious of course he would at first refuse to do any chores. If he argued with me, I added more chores to do. It was totally up to him how long he was grounded giving him a 'sense of control'. That doesn't mean we still didn't battle in a sense. He would try to turn the TV on anyway so I undid the cable to it.

Eventually he would give in and do the chores and the strangest thing would happen. He would start singing while doing the chores! He would change complete from fighting me and being so angry to being happy while doing the chores! At first I was completely amazed and puzzled by this.

I think part of the reason was he finally felt some relief..he was doing something to control the situation...and kids really do want boundaries set and depend on their parents to enforce those...it actually gives them a sense of safety. Because of what he went through with his dad...exposed to some terrible things and truly being a helpless victim that had no control over what was happening...he needed a sense of control in his life. That eased his anxiety alot. This gave him that without me just letting him get away with his bad mouthing or whatever he had done.

My sister tried to run things with her kids in a very strict manner...very strict. It never worked, they got worse and worse and worse until finally as soon as they were old enough, she helped them move out because they were so awful. She was constantly calling the police. They were in therapy too and off and on medication...half the time they refused to take it. While all three were dx with RAD or some forum of it later they were all dx with bipolar. I think my ex, my son's dad, might have been bipolar. Mental illness runs through his family. :(

Anyway all I know is all we can do is try different things until we find something that works. With these kids the usual conquenses don't seem to work. So we have to get a little more creative. My son is 13 now and rarely gives me too many problems though I realize coming into his teen years that might change..I sure hope not! Usually when he gets into trouble all I have to do is talk to him and he stops it...once in a great while its bad enough he loses something or has to do a chore. You would never think he was the same child I describe on my spiritual warfare thread. And I have to give all the credit for that to God. :)

God bless

Prayers going up for you and your son....tough love is tough....but necessary in lots of cases. If our love is not strong enough for our children that we can allow them to fall on their faces and let them learn from their mistakes, then we are doing them a grave injustice. WE MUST NOT cave in to their "tantrums!" As long as a child is under the roof of a true Christian family, where no abuse is taking place, then they should be made to abide by the rules of the parents. If they don't, take action...talk to a police officer who deals with youth and young adults. Ask their opinion of what works and what doesn't, in their opinion. Then, use your judgement on what to do next...the Bible is very specific about how to raise a child....we dont' usually go that route..and when it's too late, we wonder why...I said usually...don't get offended...sometimes we let our kids get away with stuff because we feel guilty about their childhood and the part we might have played in it. This does the child no good at all, because they soon learn to push "those buttons!"

Hope this helps! God Bless:)

I just want to say that #1 I am praying for you! Like a warrior!
and #2 I am so glad you brought your concern here. I had been previously too ashamed to mention my issues with my step-son until reading someone elses post. Previous to that the only person I discussed it with was my MIL, who was also jaded. Since i have brought my issue out in the open and shared it here, things have improved dramatically. In my heart and with my step-sons behavior. I will pray that while God is still making changes in my heart and life as well as my step sons, favorable progress will be made in your family as well. I pray that you keep hope and faith!!!!

As little as nine months ago, I was in a very similar situation with my son. Praise the Lord, he is back in church now.

I too had raised my kids in church. I wasn't a perfect mom, but I feel I have been a good mom. I was just reading yesterday about love being what draws a man to salvation. I wish I would remember where that was. That is certainly what I found to be true with my son. Do everything you do in love. Keeping communications open may mean that you can't argue over your beliefs verses his actions. I'm not saying to accept his deeds. I am just saying, pray about it and decide what you must do in response. For us, we were perfectly clear about what we believed and expected but we had to be sure that what we did in response to him was truly of a Godly nature. Emotional responses were causing strife. Making demands drove him further away. I believe God was telling me to show my son his love, to let him deal with his heart.

Hold to Proverbs 22:6 that says "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." I had a hard time with that for a while. I always believed that meant the child would not go out into the world. In my case, my son did exactly that. I now believe that every child that is taught about the Lord must come to a point in their life where they have to acknowledge what they were taught and decide which way they want to live their life. For some, the decision is easy. For others, they fight it. They must taste the world first. I also believe that each person has a free will and feared that my children would choose not to serve the Lord, thus conflicting with this scripture. I had to BELIEVE this scripture myself.

I will say that in going through the trials with my son, and before that my daughter, took a toll on who I was. I really felt like I was somehow to blame. I cried for two years. I felt like this time in my life really held me back from being the person I wanted to be in the Lord. All I ever prayed about were my children. I would ask God what I did so wrong and beg him to save them. Then finally I believe the Lord showed me that I was mourning and it was time to stop. My children weren't dead. I needed to trust him. I could not fix this problem, no matter what I did. That didn't mean I needed to say Lord take care of it and ignore it. That's a cop out. I did continue to ask the Lord to save my children. The difference was, I started to believe that he would save them. I started to allow him to work on their hearts, rather than me trying to convince them they were so wrong. Once this happened, I started to see positive changes happen almost overnight.

Now there were a lot of events in my son's life while he was out of church that influenced his decision to get back to the Lord. He lost a few of his friends. Some were using drugs and alcohol and I believe their deaths were related to that. Then a 16 year old friend died in his sleep. We are not sure of his salvation. My son also had a serious accident, in which he knows the Lord spared him. A car turned left in front of him (oncoming traffic). He swerved to miss her and his truck started to roll. His truck became airborned and flipped several times in the air before it finally hit the ground and rolled. A speaker in the truck flew out and seemed to be what stopped the truck from rolling over and crushing the cab. My son also was not wearing a seatbelt and had to hold onto the steering wheel to keep from being thrown. He escaped that accident with an abrasion to the shoulder. Praise the Lord. That wasn't an event that instantly saved him, but it certainly started to turn him in the right direction.

My son had moved out of the house at 17, staying with one friend after another until his accident. Without a vehicle, he felt he could not stay on his own and came back home. During the time he was in rebellion, he experimented with drugs and alcohol. Even after the accident I feared it may be an alcoholic. He even dropped out of school.

Today, my son has his high school diploma and has recently joined the Air Guard. He is back in church. He is not as close to the Lord as I would like, but he calls himself a Christian. He is twenty years old and I really feared that it would take him a lifetime to make peace with the Lord. God is merciful and just. I am thankful that he spared my son and gave him the space to repent.

My advice to parents now is to continue to draw close to the Lord. Your walk with the Lord will do more to help your children than anything you can do or say. Your walk with the Lord is what will keep you strong through this trial. Your walk with the Lord will give you the wisdom to know how to deal with your children in their rebellion.

The scripture I tried to remember in my reply was actually Romans 2:4. "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
I was referring to the last part, "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance".

Thanks Twin2!! And everyone. Sorry it took me so long to respond, it has been a very busy week and I am dealing with health issues.
Last week (Wed and Thur) I had a huge sense of peace wash over me. It was the first time in years I have felt God. I do not even know what changed. For other reasons (reasons apart from my won) I have been praying for several years just to hear from God again. It has been the dark night of my soul. I spent two days just worshipping God. It rbings tears to my eyes now. I prayed desperately for that to never end.
I have always known that MY attitude could make a huge difference but I never knew how to actualize that.
I know from experience (with my ex) that you cannot change a person, nor can you prove someone is wrong who refuses to see it for themselves. They will "rationalize" their behavior in any crazy way they can to justify it. This is what I am dealing with. I tend to be angry at my son for the injustices he puts on me. I am definitely his scape goat.
For example: I took him to buy new shoes. He has flat feet and I was trying to buy him a better quality pair for his feet and he insisted on getting an $11 pair (because he just wanted to get it overwith). Later I hear him talking to his girlfriend, saying "yeah, my mom is such a cheapscape and only bought me $11 shoes" ??!!
I did nothing. he did not know I had overheard his conversation.
The best response form me is usually to do nothing (reactive). It has been years learning this. I have done nothignb but lean on the verse that says if you bring your child up in the way of the Lord that when he is old, he will not depart from it. I do not know if he is saved, he did profess faith once and was baptised (12 years old). He did seem to change after that for a few years. I have blamed most of this on him being a teen and typical rebellion. But I have seen other parents raise their kids and they never go through this rebellion phase.
My dad's good advice, treat him the same no matter what. Be consistent. We were always consistent, tho, but I think it was consistency in anger, not love. I mean, I absolutely love my son (even tho I rather do not like him). I have had dreams he has died or gotten lost and felt guilty. I do tend to blame myself and have to resist the urge to "make it up to him", ya know, fromwhen he was a tot.
Right after my last post here we had another confrontation. The last time he was out, he broke his curfew. I was angry, but when he got home all I said was "you're late, I am unimpressed" but other than that we did not discuss it. I even said it almost jovially. Next weekend when he wanted to go to his girlfriend's piano recital, I told him "no". Of course, he immediately got upset and asked why, started playing the martyr. He said it was "important to him". All I said was (God give me strength my heart was racing and my husband was not home and I was afraid of this confrontation) "Since you could not get home on time last weekend, I don't think you need to go anywhere this weekend". I did add that if he wants people to care about what is important to HIM, he ought to consider caring about what is important to others. (knowing he had told me some months before that being seflish was the only was to survive in this world, yet he demands ME to be totally selfless, double standard) He got mad and walked out of the house (in the pouring rain). He was gone half an hour (there is nowhere for him to go, we live in the country miles from civilization). He showed back up and did not talk to me the rest of the night. I slept on the couch that night (he threatens to run away all the time). I have told him I will call the cops if he ever leaves. Moving out before 18 is not an option and dropping out is illegal before 18. He did not leave and was talking to me again the next day (sort of). But when I went to the store, I still bought him his candybar (I do this every week, I always buy my kids a candybar on my weekly trips) and did not act any differently. I know he had written his GF and talked to her and called me all sorts of names. He lies, makes it sound WAY worse than it is. Of course he never mentioned WHY I said no. GRR. He was back to being cordial and yesterday he asked me if he was allowed to do anything this weekend. I said yes. Punishment was given, as far as I am concerned, it is over. He gets another chance and if he blows curfew again the same thing will happen. The next time he asks to do something the answer will be no.
What gets me is that he is usually very cordial to my face, he even volunteered to help me for 2 hours cutting briars and burning them (he hates work!). I rewarded him, but not hugely. I gave him a pop (we don't drink pop generally). That is a soda for you southerners, lol. I was astonished he even helped. I mean, astonished! I appreciated it and told him so. I do not think he was doing it to get rewarded. Maybe he feels guilty for being so two-faced to me?
But then the stuff he says in his letters I find, the phone calls, it is very profane and very hateful. So much I am afraid, soemtimes, to be alone with him. This summer I will be spending 5 weeks alone with him. My other 2 kids will be at their dad's and my husband will be at work.
I know that anything said without love is not "heard". If only he would realize that what I do, I do because I love him. He sees it as me trying to ruin and control his life. I know, one day, he will likely see (like I did) when he is probably my age. Younger if I am lucky. I suppose this is the same problem I have with The Father when I cannot udnerstand the "why's" of life and it certainly does not look as if God is acting in love towards me.
But I know that without Christ, there is no hope, and as far as I know, he is living without Jesus. And I know there is free will, but I cannot take for granted my son will live long enough to see the error of his ways. If he was killed in a car accident, how would I mourn? I would not be assured he was in heaven. I know I cannot save him, nor can I ever really know the state of his soul. But right now his actions and choices dictate that he is without Christ.
I should not mourn my children because they are still alive? But are they, if they are dead to Christ?

That is pretty sad when you are afraid of your own son...but I have been there..its a terrible way to feel!

Given his age and size there are going to be some things you cannot stop him from doing. I wouldn't try to physically stop him from running away for instance. Sure you can call the police after he leaves, but don't try to stop him. If he gets too aggressive you may have to walk out of the house and leave yourself! Make some plans like this ahead of time instead of trying to figure out what to do in the heat of the moment. On his nasty talk...also realize that most of this is just talk. I said horrible things about my mom as a teenager but I certainly wasn't dangerous to her in any way. Teens blow off steam. Very few ever act on it though. Its like a dog that barks and snarls but when he has the chance never bites. They just like putting up a big front.

Now my sister I told you about that had three that acted like your son...they actually did get physically..mostly with each other not with her, but what she did was put a key lock on her bedroom door and could literally lock herself in...she also had access to a phone in there and also locked up dangerous items they could use like knifes, scissors, etc. If you think he does have the potential for violence this is something you might consider.


I ever really know the state of his soul. But right now his actions and choices dictate that he is without Christ.
I should not mourn my children because they are still alive? But are they, if they are dead to Christ?

You know I wouldn't give up hope on this. If the Son of Sam can become a saved, born again Christian, I think rebellious teenagers can too. Just because he is backsliden doesn't mean the Lord won't bring him back to him when he is older and more mature. Instead of mourning as if their is no hope, pray for his salvation instead. As bad as things were and still are with my sister's kids...she has never given up hope they will be saved.

God bless

Why is it that we are only hearing your side of the issue, and I mean, where is your Husband? Why does it seem like you are the only one dealing with this? This, as a husband and father of a 12, 14, 17, 18 and 19 year old, if find disturbing.

What ever happened to a good ol' fashioned butt whoopin. As I read your posts, I see that he talks a big game, but has not really done anything serious. Yeah, he came home late, but he came home. He stormed out, in the rain, but he came back. He has helped, but has written horrible things as well. All this points to is the teenager that is testing his limits.

CHILDREN LOVE BOUNDARIES!!! They may balk some here and there, but they are really looking for the limits so they know that somebody is paying attention. If the fence gets wider and wider by placating him, it takes longer and longer to get back to the center. If he truly wanted to leave, he would have, and if he does, let him go. A taste of the cold cruel world will make a much larger impression with him than you would think. And I also think that he is talking about leaving at 18 because you are not letting him leave now. Once he understands that he can NOT make it on his own, especially if he is given the chance, I will bet a dollar to a donut that he changes his tune real quick. I know all of mine did, because I am going through something like that now. I am pushing her out because she is not putting forth the effort in college that she could be. If she is not going to take advantage of the situation that she has at home to maximize her education, then she can get some "street" smarts.

THEY WILL GROW-UP INSPITE OF THEIR PARENTS!!

As for your husband, I think that may be a different issue all together.

Why is it that we are only hearing your side of the issue, and I mean, where is your Husband? Why does it seem like you are the only one dealing with this? This, as a husband and father of a 12, 14, 17, 18 and 19 year old, if find disturbing.

What ever happened to a good ol' fashioned butt whoopin. As I read your posts, I see that he talks a big game, but has not really done anything serious. Yeah, he came home late, but he came home. He stormed out, in the rain, but he came back. He has helped, but has written horrible things as well. All this points to is the teenager that is testing his limits.

CHILDREN LOVE BOUNDARIES!!! They may balk some here and there, but they are really looking for the limits so they know that somebody is paying attention. If the fence gets wider and wider by placating him, it takes longer and longer to get back to the center. If he truly wanted to leave, he would have, and if he does, let him go. A taste of the cold cruel world will make a much larger impression with him than you would think. And I also think that he is talking about leaving at 18 because you are not letting him leave now. Once he understands that he can NOT make it on his own, especially if he is given the chance, I will bet a dollar to a donut that he changes his tune real quick. I know all of mine did, because I am going through something like that now. I am pushing her out because she is not putting forth the effort in college that she could be. If she is not going to take advantage of the situation that she has at home to maximize her education, then she can get some "street" smarts.

THEY WILL GROW-UP INSPITE OF THEIR PARENTS!!

As for your husband, I think that may be a different issue all together.

I think she said her husband is gone alot for work. And trying to spank a 17 yr old that is bigger and stronger then her...I think he a bit past that. Her husband too is his step dad. Actually I tend to agree though...if my son at age 17 was acting like that, I would be very tempted to say..'there's the door'...

But its hard to truly understand the situation just by reading a few posts on a message board. She is his mother and between her and God, I am sure they will figure out what is best for him.

God bless

Just so that you understand "Poetry", I am a step father as well, I work enormous amounts of hours, I am back in college getting my ME degree, but I still make sure that I back my wife up AT ALL TIMES.

And I don't really care if it is a 8 year old, or 18. The establishment of parental authority only comes from the parent, and if corporal punishment is the only way, then rock on. But, never spank them in anger or with force because then it just defeats the purpose.

Just so that you understand "Poetry", I am a step father as well, I work enormous amounts of hours, I am back in college getting my ME degree, but I still make sure that I back my wife up AT ALL TIMES.

And I don't really care if it is a 8 year old, or 18. The establishment of parental authority only comes from the parent, and if corporal punishment is the only way, then rock on. But, never spank them in anger or with force because then it just defeats the purpose.

I don't know what you mean by 'Poetry'..sorry.

I think we all know as parents the discipline has to start when they are young so when they reach age 17 they will have the respect they need for their parents and those in authority. But sometimes things go wrong in those early years and it makes the later years much more difficult.

Regardless though I truly think its irresponsible to tell a mother, smaller and weaker to try to spank her 17 yr old son that is larger, stronger and aggressive. Sounds like a good way for her to get possibly seriously hurt! He would see it as an act of aggression...you are hitting me so I can hit you back to defend myself! Its a very bad idea, especially when there are other better ways to deal with a teenager. She has been able to exercise discipline over him..the very fact he lost his chance to see his girl friend play the piano and him not walk into town to go see it anyway, does show he does have respect for the boundaries she is setting...and has submitted to her disciplining him..there is no reason to go and try to spank a near adult... talk about demeaning and humiliating..it would damage their relationship horribly. Waiting until days or longer to have dad do it...doesn't cut it either...it would result in a fist fight more then likely anyway. A parent isn't to rule over their child by using physical force to teach them anyway.

Ephesians 6:4
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21
Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.


God bless

Regardless though I truly think its irresponsible to tell a mother, smaller and weaker to try to spank her 17 yr old son that is larger, stronger and aggressive. Sounds like a good way for her to get possibly seriously hurt! He would see it as an act of aggression...you are hitting me so I can hit you back to defend myself! Its a very bad idea, especially when there are other better ways to deal with a teenager. She has been able to exercise discipline over him..the very fact he lost his chance to see his girl friend play the piano and him not walk into town to go see it anyway, does show he does have respect for the boundaries she is setting...and has submitted to her disciplining him..there is no reason to go and try to spank a near adult... talk about demeaning and humiliating..it would damage their relationship horribly. Waiting until days or longer to have dad do it...doesn't cut it either...it would result in a fist fight more then likely anyway. A parent isn't to rule over their child by using physical force to teach them anyway.

I do not think that it is irresponsible in the least. Now, let me quantify why. My first wife is about 5 foot nothing, and hardly ever broke a hundred pounds, but I would warn anybody to stay on her good side. It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. If you succumb to weakness and frailty, you have lost.

On the other hand, after reading all of her posts, I don't see where he has gotten physical with her yet, and if that is the case, more than likely he is not going to. Children, especially teenagers like to push the boundaries, or as people say "rebel" against authority, but they are not looking to break free of those boundaries, but they are testing them to make sure they are still there and still strong so they feel secure as they move on into adulthood. They just are making sure that they are loved and accepted in case they slip while they are trying to make it on their own. It is with us parents that have failed them because we do not see what the real reason for all of this is. We always have to remember that we were kids too, and I can remember being scared as all get out as I took those first true steps into adulthood, but in the back of my mind, I was able to always continue forward because I knew my parents were there.

Now, as for your comment about parents should not rule over their children by force, lets look at this:

Proverbs 23:13-14


13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death. [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=23&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-17059c)]

Well, spanking is biblical, how about that.

And for the rebellious son:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Now am I saying stone him to death, of course not. My point is that this kind of behavior has been dealt with for thousands and thousands of years, and as you can read in the above text, it requires both the father and the mother in order for rebelliousness to be abated.

And one final caveat. I am the father of 6 children. 12, 14, 17, 18, 19 and 21. Half are my natural children from my first marriage, and the other half are from her first marriage, we do not have children together. I have whooped them all, but I can count on one hand how many times I have had to spank each of them. Second, I travel for my job at times, but I also work second shift, which means that I get up after my kids go to school, and I come home after they go to bed, so I may not see them all week. If things got out of control, then all it ever took was a phone call to me, and I was able to resovle the issue without ever having to be there. It is because I established the level of discipline in my house and gave my wife full authority to exercise those rules as she sees fit.

So you see, it is biblical principle to not spare the rod, or to cast you child out into the cold cruel world if they become rebellious. And don't worry, they will survive just fine, they just may get some scrapes and bruises along the way to finding themselves, I know I did, and I am sure my wife will tell you the same.

Nobody here is advocating physical violence, but firm boundaries. Because kids do like to push them, repeatedly and determinedly, and they need the parental units to be firm and united. God is neither lenient nor permissive but strong in discipline, and if we don't listen to Him deal with us when He is being tender with us, then He has 2x4s and bricks reserved to hit us straight between the eyes with in this thing called "life" where natural consequences will catch up with us, and when they do, it'll be a doozie. It's better to reign the kids in when they're younger and let them reap the rewards of their behavior in a controlled environment (such as your home) than wait until they're older and things catch up with them in more destructive ways. And yes, when our kids act like knuckleheads and we ask ourselves "who are these people and why are they living in my house?", then we have to remember that we were once knuckleheads too, and give them whatever it is we wish our parents had given to us before we busted our heads wide open in hard-earned, heartbreaking lessons that could have been avoided, had we listened to begin with, and had our parents insisted on guiding us without pulling punches.

If you read Proverbs, over and over it tells young people to listen and pay attention to correction (as strong as necessary) coming from their parents, because it is better for them than to be dragged off in the world by people who don't have their best interest in mind and who didn't listen to their parental units themselves, and who will be destroyed by sin and its consequences.

Sorry it is so long between posts. I do not have a plethora of time to be online.

Ok, my husband was mentioned. Did I ever say he was not involved? My husband is a good Christian man and we do all this TOGETHER. When I say "I", it is both of us. The fact is, I do deal with a lot of this on my own because my husband has the responsibility of being the breadwinner. Besides, because my son sees me as weaker, he waits until my husband is not home to talk to me about stuff. I usually tell him he has to wait until I can talk to my husband. But we are united and, if at all possible, nothing is dealt with until he is home.


My husband is the only real dad they have. Yes, they see their biological Dad but he is not a Dad in any sense of the term relationally. He is just some man who is inconvenienced by the fact he has 3 kids in some other state. This is, likely a source of emotional issues with my son.


I am not sure why my son only directs his hatred towards me (and the church) but that is what he does. I am sure, in his eyes, I am to blame for ALL his problems because of the divorce, etc. Whatever. If I could figure out what my son thinks and how he rationalizes, I would win a Nobel peace prize!


Anyway, yes, my son does seem to be all talk and no action. In that, he is very much like his bio-dad. However, his bio-dad did show up at my place with a gun once and I had to get a restraining order. When people are power hungry and feel one person is standing in their way, you would be surprised how the dog may bite, a dog that usually only barks and growls, to assimilate your metaphor.


BTW, poetry refers to me, my SN is Poetry4Me75.

I am "dealing" with the disrespect, tho it is painful, and his obedience is hinged on whether he feels I am being reasonable. SIGH. I will not try to play THAT game with him.
One of my hugest concerns (myself aside) is the verbal abuse he dishes out to his younger siblings. And yes, he has hit them. Nothing makes me angrier than this.
Spanking is really not an option. The last time we had physical contact, he has cussed at my face and I smacked him. He rounded on me and I stood still preparing for the worst. But my husband was standing right there and he did nothing. It is when I am alone I worry about physical violence. The time before that I actually DID try to spank him because he was acting like a 4 year old (temper tantrum and all) and he physically fought me. He quickly overpowered me, and he was only 12 then (same day I called the cops on him). He is 17 now and 6 inches taller than me, tho I still outweigh him by about 10 pounds, I am no match for him. Saying it is how much fight is in the dog was unhelpful. It doesn't matter how much fight I have, physical strength vs. physical strength is what it is. Besides, since when does physically forcing your teen to cooperate ever do any good? If it is all about who is bigger than whom, then he is right and I am wrong and I should just let him have his way.


And letting him move out is FOOLISH. I am sorry, but this is not the answer. That is a cop out. He can learn "the hard way" when I am no longer legally responbsible for everything he does. Moving out is exactly what he wants. He wants to run rampant and RUIN HIS LIFE. As long as he is mine to be responsible for, I WILL NOT ALLOW IT. Yes, I really would like to just hand him over to it, but we all know that he can make decisions now that will affect him the rest of his life, like drug addictions and whether he will obey the law and getting some girl knocked up. This is MY story and simply put, I FORBID IT. If he wants to act lawless, he can do so when the legal responsibility is all his. Especially financially. Last thing I need is a lawsuit or grandkids I will never get to see or to learn some girl had an abortion because of it all.


But whether he knows it or not, he is being loved. THAT is what he will miss the most if he slows down long enough to see it. In the end, your friends DON'T really care. They are not willing to die for you. I remember thinking my frinds were the only people in life I could trust. One by one they all abandoned me when I went through my traumas in life. I remember it all very well, it was not THAT long ago for me. I had my son when I was 16.


The whole reason I am struggling so much with my son is BECAUSE I love him and do not want to see him make huge mistakes in life. To pull back and say "fine, learn the hard way" is irresponsible on my part. Should God ever give up on US? I will NEVER give up on my son. And when I do hand him over to it when he is 18, it will not be a "good riddance" but a "good luck and Godspeed". 17 may be close to adult age, but it is NOT YET adult age and I will not willingly allow him to make such a huge mistake. Because then it is MY mistake as well.


I cannot relate to him in many ways. One he is a male, and I am female. I honestly just do not understand some of his antics. But I also never ever blamed my parents for everything. I did not harbor anger towards them. Yes, I wanted out from their rules and control but I did not conjure horrid stories (and I don't think you realize just how bad it is what he is saying, it is stuff (lies) that could get me in jail if the right person acts, we all know that, with kids, we are guilty until proven innocent) about my parents. In fact, I always said my parents were great and I just "disagreed" with their values in life. I have a great relationship with my parents now and have actually apologized, over the years for stuff I did when I was a teen.


Let us get back to the verbal abuse issue between my oldest son and my other two children (10G, 13B). I tell him not to say it, and I end up sending him to his room. Psychologically, he shows the symptoms of a person with "low self esteem" (I have never seen high self-esteem as a Biblical principle, correct me if I am wrong) and one who has control issues. Cursing, for example, is usually (maybe always?) only done when a person feels weak. Think about it, people that curse all the time have a power issues over others, people that curse when they stub their toe or cannot get the mower to start or get cut off in traffic. All moments of weakness. So the fact that he curses (very vulgar) only confirms he has control issues. I can say as much of myself back when I used such filthy langauge. I felt (in retrospect) that cursing gave me power.


I could try to deduce the cause of the control issues. Most likely is the divorce. He was 7 when I left his father and 9 when I married my husband. He is the only one old enough to remember living with his dad. He has always fought authority. The problems in school started in Kindergarten and have never waned. Tho they have evolved over the years. He was forever in detention for breaking rules. Suspended a couple times for very poor decisions, but mostly he REFUSES to do his schoolwork. His IQ is very high and he is EXTREMELY intelligent. He could easily get straights A's but he gets D's and F's. And always because he has not turned in his work. He aces his tests. He rationalle: I do not need to do the work to learn, it is a stupid requirement, I have deemed it unneccessary and therefor resuse to comply and consider myself above such petty things. (all this he has said outloud). And: All I need is a D to pass the class. I do not need THIS class to graduate so an F is fine. They are making me take the class but they cannot make me pass it. Now, I would welcome any suggestions on how to make him get better grades, but alas, I have always always lost this battle and if there is anything I have given up on, it is this. I have spent time, rather, in making sure he understands this is a mistake. "You can lead a horse to water...".

He was on restriction for a very long time and has had many dire consequences to poor grades but nothing helped. In fact, it strengthened his resolve that he was some poor victim and determined moreso not to get good grades, purposely doing so.


Of course he has no plans for college and thinks a career at McDonalds is great. SO I am encouraging it. Hey, someone has to manage those places. But I have sat him down with a calculator and some real world facts and figures to show him 2+2 does not equal 50. He thinks I am exaggerting. Huh. Well, because of this mentality, we have made him pay for everything in regard to driving, his car and license. I absolutely loved the day when he went to register his car and shelled out about $100 in the process. He was shocked at how much it cost. I didn't have to say a word.

But if you can to understand, ALL his life, since he was 3 or 4, he has decided that he is above the rules, that HE is the exception to every rule and if he does something wrong, it is never his fault and if he hurts another person, they deserve it (<--boy have we had rounds about THIS one).

So I have fought him (mentally) since then, a constant battle just for simple things. The war has been waged on many different levels and even tho a lot of the stuff he says seems contradictory, "that's his story and he's stickin' to it". For example, he is so intelligent but yet cannot seem to figure out that following the rules or doing his homework would serve him better. He is so selfish and yet he seems to systematically ruin his own life by choice. He has such a huge ego/pride issue and yet he makes D's on purpose. You would think he would be worried people would think he was an idiot.
Fact is, he is still very immature and will, no doubt, STILL be very immature at 18 when he leaves. Fact is, I know adults in their 40's who STILL behave this way. And fact is, no matter how much he grieves me and strives to do so, I will always want what is best for him and I WILL let go, but not until the due time.

So until then, I am trying to find a way to keep peace at home, keep myself safe (BTW, I have long since locked up all the potential weapons and put a phone in my room and a lock to keep him out, we even hid all the money (change jar) and lock up the filing cabinet where our financial info is) and keep my other two kids safe. But what I need are practical, Biblical ways to stand firm in my faith without copping out on the responsibility of raising my son by giving up.

Thank you all for your time, thoughts and reasonings. They ARE helpful.

I don't know how else to say this except by being straight up.

Here is what I see:

1. Your divorce was 10 years ago. Why is it still allowed to remain an excuse for people's behavior in your family?

2. If you knew your son thought himself above the rules at 3 years old, why has that remained uncorrected in 14 years?

3. If your son directs his hatred towards you, there is a direct reason for it. Find out why.

4. Your son is 17 and talk is the name of the game. That's what teenage boys do. It's normal. You call them on the carpet, and set the boundaries strong, and firm. Because that is what reality does.

5. Why are you still blaming your ex husband for your son's behavior? He hasn't lived with that man in 14 years. Who he has been living with, are you, and your current husband.

There are certain issues in our lives that will remain unresolved until we quit casting blame on people who have nothing to do with anything, and quit making excuses for ourselves. Your son knows he is loved. He isn't stupid. What he is doing, is responding to lack of parental discipline because he's being allowed to make excuses for himself. And he is being allowed to terrorize an entire family! Who is allowing it? Whoever that is, for whatever reason, needs to repent, make changes, and fix things. You have been given sound, godly advice, and it seems to me that your mind is already made up and you are rejecting all of it and you are explaining it all away, for whatever reason (and only you know what that reason is).

It may be too late in the game at this point to apply physical discipline (and rods aren't only used to physically correct, but speak of overall discipline, guidance and boundaries, like the one a shepherd uses for his sheep), and I understand your reasons for not doing so, but here is Scripture, and that is God telling you to do these things, not us (and so whether or not you obey that, is between yourself and the Lord):

Proverbs 13:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=13&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

Proverbs 22:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=22&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=23&verse=13&version=50&context=verse)
Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

If this comes across as harsh to you, then beg pardon. But there are things you need to see, for your own sake, and for the sake of your child. Because you're not doing him, nor yourself, any favors, by allowing these things to continue, and by allowing guilt, and fear, and blame, and excuses, to remain in control of your family dynamics, instead of love, truth, soundness of mind, reason, and logic.

Poetry..it does sounds like you are doing your best to discipline him and its been a battle for many years now. I just want to say I admire you for hanging in there and not giving up. As I told you before my son was very much like this for many years...he was actually worse though as he did get violent. It is heartbreaking for sure, and can wear us down. God has given you the strength and the endurance to hang in there though and not just give up. Children can hold a grudge over a divorce for many years..even into adulthood and be angry at the parent that raises them. He has obviously never forgiven you about this even though he is probably very aware how his dad was. Therapy could help with some of these issues if he would be willing.

When I mentioned about letting him go (I was thinking in regards to 'what would I do if I were in your shoes'...I never ever meant I would give up. The bible has a number of stories about people in the church sinning..another one on the prodigal son, where the person in question was let go..the idea isn't to give up on them though by any means. You wanted bibical advise so we will look at what the bible says...(but I realize as his mother you have the final say of course and I would never tell you to go against what you believe is right of course). Yes legally you are still responsible for him but I don't think he is going to be much different by the time he is 18..sometimes the shock of life outside of home, does help kids realize the world doesn't revolve around them. I am posting this too so you will be ready for what might happen once he does leave home.

Luke 15
Parable of the Lost Son
11 To illustrate the point further, Jesus told them this story: “A man had two sons. 12 The younger son told his father, ‘I want my share of your estate now before you die.’ So his father agreed to divide his wealth between his sons.

13 “A few days later this younger son packed all his belongings and moved to a distant land, and there he wasted all his money in wild living. 14 About the time his money ran out, a great famine swept over the land, and he began to starve. 15 He persuaded a local farmer to hire him, and the man sent him into his fields to feed the pigs. 16 The young man became so hungry that even the pods he was feeding the pigs looked good to him. But no one gave him anything.

17 “When he finally came to his senses, he said to himself, ‘At home even the hired servants have food enough to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! 18 I will go home to my father and say, “Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, 19 and I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”’

20 “So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him. 21 His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son.’

22 “But his father said to the servants, ‘Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. 23 And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, 24 for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.’ So the party began.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the fields working. When he returned home, he heard music and dancing in the house, 26 and he asked one of the servants what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother is back,’ he was told, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf. We are celebrating because of his safe return.’

28 “The older brother was angry and wouldn’t go in. His father came out and begged him, 29 but he replied, ‘All these years I’ve slaved for you and never once refused to do a single thing you told me to. And in all that time you never gave me even one young goat for a feast with my friends. 30 Yet when this son of yours comes back after squandering your money on prostitutes, you celebrate by killing the fattened calf!’

31 “His father said to him, ‘Look, dear son, you have always stayed by me, and everything I have is yours. 32 We had to celebrate this happy day. For your brother was dead and has come back to life! He was lost, but now he is found!’”


This next one deals with an adult in church but the same principle applies:
1 Corinthians 5

1I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you, something so evil that even the pagans don't do it. I am told that you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father's wife. 2 And you are so proud of yourselves! Why aren't you mourning in sorrow and shame? And why haven't you removed this man from your fellowship?
3 Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet. 5 Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan's hands, so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns.


[QUOTE=Poetry4Me75;2076642]Sorry it is so long between posts. I do not have a plethora of time to be online.

Ok, my husband was mentioned. Did I ever say he was not involved? My husband is a good Christian man and we do all this TOGETHER. When I say "I", it is both of us. The fact is, I do deal with a lot of this on my own because my husband has the responsibility of being the breadwinner. Besides, because my son sees me as weaker, he waits until my husband is not home to talk to me about stuff. I usually tell him he has to wait until I can talk to my husband. But we are united and, if at all possible, nothing is dealt with until he is home.


My husband is the only real dad they have. Yes, they see their biological Dad but he is not a Dad in any sense of the term relationally. He is just some man who is inconvenienced by the fact he has 3 kids in some other state. This is, likely a source of emotional issues with my son.


If my son had continued seeing his dad...he would be exactly like your son...well actually probably worse! Because the bad influence would still be affecting him. Its no wonder you have been unable to make any head way with him. Knowing first hand what you are up against, there is no logic behind what they do and they only hurt themselves by their own actions but their behavior does not change. Its a really strange thing to see actually because most kids will stop the bad behavior once they get in trouble..the learn from their mistakes...these types of kids don't.


I am not sure why my son only directs his hatred towards me (and the church) but that is what he does. I am sure, in his eyes, I am to blame for ALL his problems because of the divorce, etc. Whatever. If I could figure out what my son thinks and how he rationalizes, I would win a Nobel peace prize!

My son directed his anger at me because of the things his dad said and he also hated church because his dad bad mouthed the church.



Anyway, yes, my son does seem to be all talk and no action. In that, he is very much like his bio-dad. However, his bio-dad did show up at my place with a gun once and I had to get a restraining order. When people are power hungry and feel one person is standing in their way, you would be surprised how the dog may bite, a dog that usually only barks and growls, to assimilate your metaphor.


BTW, poetry refers to me, my SN is Poetry4Me75.

I am "dealing" with the disrespect, tho it is painful, and his obedience is hinged on whether he feels I am being reasonable. SIGH. I will not try to play THAT game with him.
One of my hugest concerns (myself aside) is the verbal abuse he dishes out to his younger siblings. And yes, he has hit them. Nothing makes me angrier than this.
Spanking is really not an option. The last time we had physical contact, he has cussed at my face and I smacked him. He rounded on me and I stood still preparing for the worst. But my husband was standing right there and he did nothing. It is when I am alone I worry about physical violence. The time before that I actually DID try to spank him because he was acting like a 4 year old (temper tantrum and all) and he physically fought me. He quickly overpowered me, and he was only 12 then (same day I called the cops on him). He is 17 now and 6 inches taller than me, tho I still outweigh him by about 10 pounds, I am no match for him. Saying it is how much fight is in the dog was unhelpful. It doesn't matter how much fight I have, physical strength vs. physical strength is what it is. Besides, since when does physically forcing your teen to cooperate ever do any good? If it is all about who is bigger than whom, then he is right and I am wrong and I should just let him have his way.

I agree, you do not want to try to spank him...the last thing I want is for you to get hurt. The 'rod' in the bible doesn't mean we have to spank it means discipline as was mentioned which you are doing, but its not changing his behavior, so something else needs to be tried...what at this point, I don't know.

(continued on next post)

And letting him move out is FOOLISH. I am sorry, but this is not the answer. That is a cop out. He can learn "the hard way" when I am no longer legally responbsible for everything he does. Moving out is exactly what he wants. He wants to run rampant and RUIN HIS LIFE. As long as he is mine to be responsible for, I WILL NOT ALLOW IT. Yes, I really would like to just hand him over to it, but we all know that he can make decisions now that will affect him the rest of his life, like drug addictions and whether he will obey the law and getting some girl knocked up. This is MY story and simply put, I FORBID IT. If he wants to act lawless, he can do so when the legal responsibility is all his. Especially financially. Last thing I need is a lawsuit or grandkids I will never get to see or to learn some girl had an abortion because of it all.


I understand and that is your call of course. Though legally if he committed a crime he would be held responsible and tried as an adult. Though you would have to pay 'child support' for his care while in jail! So in that sense, its a good idea to keep him out of legal trouble until he is 18...after 18 if they commit a crime you don't have to pay child support (though this could vary in certain states, I don't know).


But whether he knows it or not, he is being loved. THAT is what he will miss the most if he slows down long enough to see it. In the end, your friends DON'T really care. They are not willing to die for you. I remember thinking my frinds were the only people in life I could trust. One by one they all abandoned me when I went through my traumas in life. I remember it all very well, it was not THAT long ago for me. I had my son when I was 16.

that is very true, but try telling a teen that thinks they know everything that..:( I am sorry you went through that.



The whole reason I am struggling so much with my son is BECAUSE I love him and do not want to see him make huge mistakes in life. To pull back and say "fine, learn the hard way" is irresponsible on my part. Should God ever give up on US? I will NEVER give up on my son. And when I do hand him over to it when he is 18, it will not be a "good riddance" but a "good luck and Godspeed". 17 may be close to adult age, but it is NOT YET adult age and I will not willingly allow him to make such a huge mistake. Because then it is MY mistake as well.

I addressed this already above.


I cannot relate to him in many ways. One he is a male, and I am female. I honestly just do not understand some of his antics. But I also never ever blamed my parents for everything. I did not harbor anger towards them. Yes, I wanted out from their rules and control but I did not conjure horrid stories (and I don't think you realize just how bad it is what he is saying, it is stuff (lies) that could get me in jail if the right person acts, we all know that, with kids, we are guilty until proven innocent) about my parents. In fact, I always said my parents were great and I just "disagreed" with their values in life. I have a great relationship with my parents now and have actually apologized, over the years for stuff I did when I was a teen.


Let us get back to the verbal abuse issue between my oldest son and my other two children (10G, 13B). I tell him not to say it, and I end up sending him to his room. Psychologically, he shows the symptoms of a person with "low self esteem" (I have never seen high self-esteem as a Biblical principle, correct me if I am wrong) and one who has control issues. Cursing, for example, is usually (maybe always?) only done when a person feels weak. Think about it, people that curse all the time have a power issues over others, people that curse when they stub their toe or cannot get the mower to start or get cut off in traffic. All moments of weakness. So the fact that he curses (very vulgar) only confirms he has control issues. I can say as much of myself back when I used such filthy langauge. I felt (in retrospect) that cursing gave me power.



I think the fact he even goes to his room when you send him there is a good sign! He isn't in totally rebellion. Though sadly his behavior has not changed...have you ever thought about using a reward system for him instead of only negative conquenses? Both actually work better together. Every time he is nice to them he gets attention for it...alot of positive praise and one of his things he lost back. If he verbally abuses them, he loses that item again.

One thing I read years ago...if a child, no matter the age, only gets ALOT of attention for back behavior it actually reinforces that behavior because they are getting attention for it...even if its a spanking. If the parents give little to no attention for good behavior then kid (subconsciously) is thinking why be good? If I do bad in my school work and mom spends hours talking to me about it, I get alot of attention for it. If you ignore much of his bad behavior (when its safe that is) then its not such a big issue. In other words, you pick your battles. If he doesn't care about his grades, there isn't much you can do about that...but you could offer a reward for good grades...something really big for bringing up a good report card...you as his mother would know what he likes.


I could try to deduce the cause of the control issues. Most likely is the divorce. He was 7 when I left his father and 9 when I married my husband. He is the only one old enough to remember living with his dad.

I don't see you using this as a excuse but only trying to understand why he does what he does. As I said before, children will hold grudges and they remember the hurt of a divorce...many grow up thinking its their fault..in this case he seems to blame you. They have fantasies about mom and dad getting back together one day and are angry when it doesn't happen...even if the marriage was terrible. Though there are a few children that are glad when a divorce happens because the conditions were so bad.


He has always fought authority. The problems in school started in Kindergarten and have never waned. Tho they have evolved over the years. He was forever in detention for breaking rules. Suspended a couple times for very poor decisions, but mostly he REFUSES to do his schoolwork. His IQ is very high and he is EXTREMELY intelligent. He could easily get straights A's but he gets D's and F's. And always because he has not turned in his work. He aces his tests. He rationalle: I do not need to do the work to learn, it is a stupid requirement, I have deemed it unneccessary and therefor resuse to comply and consider myself above such petty things. (all this he has said outloud). And: All I need is a D to pass the class. I do not need THIS class to graduate so an F is fine. They are making me take the class but they cannot make me pass it. Now, I would welcome any suggestions on how to make him get better grades, but alas, I have always always lost this battle and if there is anything I have given up on, it is this. I have spent time, rather, in making sure he understands this is a mistake. "You can lead a horse to water...".

He was on restriction for a very long time and has had many dire consequences to poor grades but nothing helped. In fact, it strengthened his resolve that he was some poor victim and determined moreso not to get good grades, purposely doing so.


Of course he has no plans for college and thinks a career at McDonalds is great. SO I am encouraging it. Hey, someone has to manage those places. But I have sat him down with a calculator and some real world facts and figures to show him 2+2 does not equal 50. He thinks I am exaggerting. Huh. Well, because of this mentality, we have made him pay for everything in regard to driving, his car and license. I absolutely loved the day when he went to register his car and shelled out about $100 in the process. He was shocked at how much it cost. I didn't have to say a word.

But if you can to understand, ALL his life, since he was 3 or 4, he has decided that he is above the rules, that HE is the exception to every rule and if he does something wrong, it is never his fault and if he hurts another person, they deserve it (<--boy have we had rounds about THIS one).

So I have fought him (mentally) since then, a constant battle just for simple things. The war has been waged on many different levels and even tho a lot of the stuff he says seems contradictory, "that's his story and he's stickin' to it". For example, he is so intelligent but yet cannot seem to figure out that following the rules or doing his homework would serve him better. He is so selfish and yet he seems to systematically ruin his own life by choice. He has such a huge ego/pride issue and yet he makes D's on purpose. You would think he would be worried people would think he was an idiot.
Fact is, he is still very immature and will, no doubt, STILL be very immature at 18 when he leaves. Fact is, I know adults in their 40's who STILL behave this way. And fact is, no matter how much he grieves me and strives to do so, I will always want what is best for him and I WILL let go, but not until the due time.

So until then, I am trying to find a way to keep peace at home, keep myself safe (BTW, I have long since locked up all the potential weapons and put a phone in my room and a lock to keep him out, we even hid all the money (change jar) and lock up the filing cabinet where our financial info is) and keep my other two kids safe. But what I need are practical, Biblical ways to stand firm in my faith without copping out on the responsibility of raising my son by giving up.

Thank you all for your time, thoughts and reasonings. They ARE helpful.

My son also fought against all authority figures..he learned that from his dad, who also fought against all authority. It took me years to undo the bad lessons my son learned from his dad. It was a long hard struggle too! What helped so much was his dad went to jail when Nate was almost five so he was no longer under that bad influence. He learned alot of really bad things from his dad. :(

I would recommend getting the book The Strong Willed Child by Dr. Dobson who basis his book on the bible.

And meanwhile try some positive rewards for him..you might have to look really hard for those moment he is helpful, thoughtful, says a kind word, but when you do, be sure to give him alot of positive attention for it. Hopefully that won't backfire on you. Nate was in such a state of rebellion that he would act up when I gave him positive feedback! :B I could say, 'Great job Nate!" and he would get all mad and kick me! :eek:

He did better if he got something, like a small toy, or a special treat. I don't know if he rejected my positive praise because he felt if he accepted it and enjoyed it, it would mean he was somehow 'siding' against his dad. I think he was very torn inside and felt he had to 'be loyal' to his dad. His dad did alot of 'woe is me' kind of junk..talking to Nate when he was only three and four about his worries about imaged health problems and how one day 'mom and I would get back together'...to switching too how horrible I was. Image doing that to a little child! Its no wonder he was so torn emotionally...but children of divorced parents can feel very caught in the middle even if the divorce was years ago. It continues on as they go visit the other parent...there is no telling what he hears from his dad that could be influencing some of his behavior too. :(

I am praying for you and your son and your whole family.

God bless

FAther i thank you because Jesus said that with God all things are possible. From this day, cause this mother to wake up every morning and declare your word, calling forth things that be not as if they were, just like you do. remind her to proclaim "as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord". remind her that faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not yet seen; without which, it is impossible to please you.

remind her also that when you promised Abraham a nation and a descendants as many as the stars, him and his barren wife were facing an 'impossible situation'. but they counted you as faithful, willing and able and they waited for 25 years without looking at the physical evidence and getting discouraged. upto this day, Your favorite Name is God of Abraham. Give us the same trust in You and and Your word in Jesus' Name.

Jesus told us that we did not chose Him but He chose us and appointed us to bear fruit, fruit that will last. then the Father would give us whatever we asked in Your Name. You promised whenever 2 or 3 gather together in Your Name and ask of anything they've agreed on, that Your Father would give it to them. We don't care how long this will take. but as for this woman and her house, they will serve The Lord, in Jesus' Name. and just like the widow in Jesus' parable who persistently went to plead with the judge and never gave up until the judge granted her justice, i ask you to send the same spirit to this woman and she will hang on and pray for her son over and over and over and over again, giving thanks that its already done. Open His eyes that he may seen Lord. in Jesus' Name. thankyou God. You are the God that sanctifies us. we thank you because you will begin a good work in this teenager and prepare his heart unto you. let ever road he takes and everyone he meets, every movie he watches call him back home to You Jesus. ty.

Well, one way or the other, at 17 and the edge of manhood, no matter how you slice it, a son should be the defender and protector of the family, not a threat to it. I know that my 17-year-old would defend and protect any one of us, no questions asked. And as a mother, I'm very proud of him for that.

As a mother, I also find it rather heartbreaking that you seem to have lost sight of who God designed your son to be, and what is within him that God put there. I would highly suggest you take all that faith you seem to have in your ex-husband (who isn't even around) to mess up your kids' destinies, and place it firmly in God (who is around, with you, near you, every day) where it belongs. You seem to have a lot of gumption in you. I would encourage you to use it to fight for your son and the man of God he is supposed to be.

I agree with some of what danihansen is saying. I may not be qualified to answer this but it does seem like you are very certain you have done everything right and don't really want to hear some of the things people are saying. None of us know what you have been through and It is hard to explain 17 years of your child's life in writing but.....I have a close friend who has had a similar story.
From the outside looking in it seemed to me that even though the son was acting inappropriately and he too was a very self centered teen that thought at 17 he could make his own rules, I kept thinking they were making issues out of every little tiny detail that from my point of view didn't always seem like it needed to be a battle. When she would eavesdrop on him or check up without his knowing it, she never found that he was doing anything that in 10 years from now would matter but it impacted the way she handled him and how she treated him without her even realizing it.
She also didn't really let him be responsible for his own bad choices. She too thought it was her job until he graduated to see to it he followed every rule right down to always doing family game night even though he insisted it was dumb.
It was something that petty that escalated to him walking out and staying with a friend and refusing to come home.
The thing was that she would ask me and others for our opinion or just to vent but I never really felt she was willing to look at herself and the way she was dealing with him. She kept insisting it was him that was the whole problem. Don't get me wrong he was selfish and lazy and all the other things a teenager can be, and I really never experienced this with my son at least not to that degree but sometimes I thought they made battles out of nothing just because they were so upset with the thing he did or didn't do the day or week before. They also didn't really treat him like the adult he almost was and he knew it. He didn't want them being controlling parents so he acted like a jerk but he also knew what ever he did wrong they would fix it. It has been a year and a half since he walked out the door the day he turned 18 and only 3 weeks before graduation day. (he did graduate) He just joined the Navy since he can't find a job to support himself but he didn't go crazy and join a cult, or get involved in drugs etc...
He may have made some bad choices that we don't even know about but she is finally realizing that she raised a good kid who did listen all those years and when it wasn't being rammed down his throat he ended up applying the values that he was raised with. The only lasting issue is that the relationship between him and his parents was damaged and is still not great.
I know from my experiences with my own daughter that it doesn't always end up going that well but God does eventually turn even the worst circumstances into good even though we don't see it sometimes for years.

I will be praying for your family.

well there are steps you can take with your 17 yr old but I think you better think on your younger kids. what kind of music do they listen to?

Dani, I think a lot of your post was very out of line. You are entitled to your opinion, I suppose. I do not recall blaming everything on my ex, in fact, I was just trying to deduce some reason for some of his behavior because someone asked me.

Why is he angry at me? Why is any teen angry? I am his scape goat. It certainly can't be HIS fault or else he would have to do something about it, so it must be someone else's. I am the one who sets most the rules, therefor it is my fault. Just a stab at his thinking. I am not really into secular psychology but I will not be ignorant either.

I am also not rejecting people's advice, just because I won't kick my son out of the house? You act like I have done nothing about his behavior all these years? I have done EVERYTHING I could think of, which is why I am at my wits end. I have sought help from so many different sources, read so many books and of course the Bible. I have had Dobson's book for years and countless others if you want me to recite them from my bookshelf.

My son is smart enough to figure out what I am trying to do in any "new" discipline techniques and so he makes sure they don't work. Besides, to him it would seem I am trying to manipulate him just like he manipulates me, which is true, right? Isn't that we we are doing when we try techniques? Nonetheless, I remain firm in my decisions until they have been fully tried (which takes months or years). In fact, being consistent is one of the things that seems to get him very angry at me. Because I won't be coerced out of a decision, his only resort is a temper tantrum.

Me and my house have always served the Lord (since my divorce). I have always made this clear which is why he still goes to church even tho he hates it.

I have actually gotten some very good advice and ideas from others in this thread and am working on incorporating them into the situation. I am rejecting everything? Why do you say that?

You act like I am whining about my son and refusing to do anything proactive about it. Then I obviously have not conveyed enough what I have done, DAILY, to wage this war against the power of sin that has taken over my son's choices. But I cannot treat him like a demon or something. I LOVE HIM. I would easily and readily die for him. I pray for him daily.

I do not want confirmation that I am doing the right thing or a pat on the back and "oh, you did your best" or anything like that. Believe me I can take criticism. To the point I have been convinced I am a loser and everything is always my fault and I blame myself for every choice my son makes, which is not healthy either. I have been through every range of emotion in the last 17 years! I had always figured it was something I was doing wrong, when in fact, there is credibility to the statement that inherant personalities cannot really be changed and this explains why the same parents can raise two totally different kids. I am sure you can think of an example in your own life. That is nto to absolve me from blame, which is where I seem to disagree with a lot of the cousel I hear IRL. They say "You are doing all you can" but I refuse to use that excuse and quit trying. Surely there is always something more that can be done.

Oh, and by the way, I never said I was a perfect parent, but apparently I am not allowed to make mistakes in my parenting? Now tell me, who but the Father can do this?

[quote=moonglow;2077671]
One thing I read years ago...if a child, no matter the age, only gets ALOT of attention for back behavior it actually reinforces that behavior because they are getting attention for it...even if its a spanking. If the parents give little to no attention for good behavior then kid (subconsciously) is thinking why be good? If I do bad in my school work and mom spends hours talking to me about it, I get alot of attention for it. If you ignore much of his bad behavior (when its safe that is) then its not such a big issue. In other words, you pick your battles. If he doesn't care about his grades, there isn't much you can do about that...but you could offer a reward for good grades...something really big for bringing up a good report card...you as his mother would know what he likes.

Not sure how to do the quote thing, hope this comes out right.

I think I did a lot of this when he was younger, focusing so much on the bad behavior and hardly any on the good. This is something I tried to change years ago (around the time I read Dobson's book). He as my first child and I WAS very young when I had him. I made a LOT of mistakes those early years (tho I was still trying my best, but my best stunk). And truly, it was not until I came back to Christ in the midst of my divorce that my parenting changed drastically. Of course, I looked back on the earlier years and was so distraught at how I had "ruined" his forst 7 years of life. I have always always blamed myself for this and am, at times, convinced there was irreversible damage done.

Anywho, I do offer rewards, like for his grades. He doesn't care, he will say it is not worth it. I ask him what is worth it and he wants something I cannot do, like $500 or something. I HAVE offered to pay for grades (my parents did this with us) but, again, it doesn't work. In fact right now we have a "contract" if he makes honor roll. Once he has made up his mind he doesn't want to do something, NOTHING is incentive enough. But if he ever changes his mind, well, that's the ticket, right?

But as a recent example, I will tell you what I have done. My son is generally irresponsible/lazy. He will not do anything for himself and expects others to do everything for him. I will skip details and a lot I have already done in this area (like making him do his own laundry). But he will be "lazy" even to the point it harms himself, then blame ME because I did not do it for him (he blames me for him not doing his homework and then, of couse, the resultant bad grades...go fig. Even the counselors are baffled by this one). So he bought a car a month ago and there are several things that needed to be fixed on it before it was "legal". So, much to my astonishment, I find him out there one day fixing parts of his car! This after it sat for 2 weeks in the driveway and he never so much as opened the door. All I did was ask if he needed help. He did, so I helped him (a little) but he did 99% of it. When he was done I told him how proud I was (no sarcasm, not like "wow, you sure surprised ME by taking the incentive". Saying something like that would say I had expected him to be lazy and fail (and even if I did expect it, verbalizing it is not helpful)). And then I bought him a manual to his car (as a reward) so he could better fix the other issues. Then also, he has fixed some other things and began taking initiative on passing his drivers test so I put $10 gas in his car the other day. Of course, I always praise him when he has done something praiseworthy. I realize, of course, that he has a huge incentive to be working on his car, as it will help him "leave" when he is 18. Whatever.

He has been amicable the last couple weeks, but he NEEDS me to pass his test. I HAVE to ride with him legally while he is practicing and I have to take him to his test. Once he is done "using me" it will be same old same old. Probably worse because with his license he will expect more freedom. There can be some, but he always wants more than I will allow. Gee, like I will let him be at his girlfriends house alone for hours. Yeah. NOT.

But anyway, I probably do need to find more positive things to say daily. Once in awhile is not good enough, I am sure.

[quote=jsph110;2077799]

remind her also that when you promised Abraham a nation and a descendants as many as the stars, him and his barren wife were facing an 'impossible situation'. but they counted you as faithful, willing and able and they waited for 25 years without looking at the physical evidence and getting discouraged. [quote]

This is good.

When I had looked back on my first marriage and the kind of life my son lived then, I was so regreetful. Having recently come to Christ (back then) I prayed so much for God to protect my children (emotionally and mentally) from all of that. I remember well giving my children into the hands of God and trusting He will take care of them. It is how I am able to stand the fact they DO see their bio-dad. I think I have lost some of the trust over the years (in God) but this has reminded me that God can keep them so much better than me (which is good, because I am definitely not able to do it myself!).

And God can work all things to good for them that love the Lord. My son may not love the Lord but I do, and I have to trust that my efforts, no matter how imperfect and feeble, will be good enough because God "has my back" and of course, it in His name I do it and in His Will that none to be lost.

Well, one way or the other, at 17 and the edge of manhood, no matter how you slice it, a son should be the defender and protector of the family, not a threat to it. I know that my 17-year-old would defend and protect any one of us, no questions asked. And as a mother, I'm very proud of him for that.

As a mother, I also find it rather heartbreaking that you seem to have lost sight of who God designed your son to be, and what is within him that God put there. I would highly suggest you take all that faith you seem to have in your ex-husband (who isn't even around) to mess up your kids' destinies, and place it firmly in God (who is around, with you, near you, every day) where it belongs. You seem to have a lot of gumption in you. I would encourage you to use it to fight for your son and the man of God he is supposed to be.

I agree I should be able to trust him to defend the home. But this is a CHRISTIAN quality, and he has definitely rejected God at this time.

And again, where do you get that I am using my ex as a scape goat? Because I was trying to figure out where his anger comes from? Did I say "Oh, it is all my ex's fault. There is nothing I can do. He is what he is and there is no hope ALLLL because of my ex. Yup, tough break I have such an awful ex. Poor me." And if I thought my ex had "messed up my kids destinies" then why would I be trying so hard to make things right? Clearly you are missing something. Have you not read all I have done and tried?

And how do you say I have lost sight of what God designed my son to be? It is because I have KEPT sight of it that I have not given up fighting for it!

You would encourage me to fight for my son? WHAT do you think I have been doing? You speak like I have done nothing. Well, I am not accountable to you and God knows all I do, all I strive, the tears of my prayers and the constant struggle to do right by my son. My conscience is clear with God.

I feel it is Biblical to ask counsel of other Christians, we are the body of Christ, His means to accomplish His Will. I have done so IRL and now, here. I have gotten some good advice and am, as I have been, still working on it, actively. Persistently. Not perfectly, but I am trying. I know what I have tried and what has failed. Of course I am going to reject advice I have tried that has failed, or anything that is not Biblical.

I do realize you are trying to be helpful and there are limitations to what can be properly conveyed in a post. I will accept I have not been able to convey something to you and you must be misunderstanding because I think you have the situation all wrong.

But anyway, I probably do need to find more positive things to say daily. Once in awhile is not good enough, I am sure.

You may think that I'm out of line, and that's fine. But all I can go by are your actual posts, because my x-ray machine is broken and doesn't reach all the way to your house. And so if I've gotten your situation all wrong, then I'm sorry. I see your struggle and your love for your son, but I also see miscommunication happening and lopsided approaches (i.e. very negatively slanted). And I can only go by what I see based on your communication of things.

Honestly, if I was your son (or any teenager) and read your posts about me (especially your first one, to complete strangers on the internet), the first thing to cross my mind would be "My mom thinks I'm a loser" (because that is how kids think). And then where is my motivation to want to do right? And where is my motivation to think that you're really and truly in my corner, all the way?

And no, being a defender of the home turf as a man, isn't a uniquely Christian quality. It's something Pagans also do quite well. It's a built-in, basic human quality. :)

[quote=moonglow;2077671]
One thing I read years ago...if a child, no matter the age, only gets ALOT of attention for back behavior it actually reinforces that behavior because they are getting attention for it...even if its a spanking. If the parents give little to no attention for good behavior then kid (subconsciously) is thinking why be good? If I do bad in my school work and mom spends hours talking to me about it, I get alot of attention for it. If you ignore much of his bad behavior (when its safe that is) then its not such a big issue. In other words, you pick your battles. If he doesn't care about his grades, there isn't much you can do about that...but you could offer a reward for good grades...something really big for bringing up a good report card...you as his mother would know what he likes.

Not sure how to do the quote thing, hope this comes out right.

I think I did a lot of this when he was younger, focusing so much on the bad behavior and hardly any on the good. This is something I tried to change years ago (around the time I read Dobson's book). He as my first child and I WAS very young when I had him. I made a LOT of mistakes those early years (tho I was still trying my best, but my best stunk). And truly, it was not until I came back to Christ in the midst of my divorce that my parenting changed drastically. Of course, I looked back on the earlier years and was so distraught at how I had "ruined" his forst 7 years of life. I have always always blamed myself for this and am, at times, convinced there was irreversible damage done.

Anywho, I do offer rewards, like for his grades. He doesn't care, he will say it is not worth it. I ask him what is worth it and he wants something I cannot do, like $500 or something. I HAVE offered to pay for grades (my parents did this with us) but, again, it doesn't work. In fact right now we have a "contract" if he makes honor roll. Once he has made up his mind he doesn't want to do something, NOTHING is incentive enough. But if he ever changes his mind, well, that's the ticket, right?

But as a recent example, I will tell you what I have done. My son is generally irresponsible/lazy. He will not do anything for himself and expects others to do everything for him. I will skip details and a lot I have already done in this area (like making him do his own laundry). But he will be "lazy" even to the point it harms himself, then blame ME because I did not do it for him (he blames me for him not doing his homework and then, of couse, the resultant bad grades...go fig. Even the counselors are baffled by this one). So he bought a car a month ago and there are several things that needed to be fixed on it before it was "legal". So, much to my astonishment, I find him out there one day fixing parts of his car! This after it sat for 2 weeks in the driveway and he never so much as opened the door. All I did was ask if he needed help. He did, so I helped him (a little) but he did 99% of it. When he was done I told him how proud I was (no sarcasm, not like "wow, you sure surprised ME by taking the incentive". Saying something like that would say I had expected him to be lazy and fail (and even if I did expect it, verbalizing it is not helpful)). And then I bought him a manual to his car (as a reward) so he could better fix the other issues. Then also, he has fixed some other things and began taking initiative on passing his drivers test so I put $10 gas in his car the other day. Of course, I always praise him when he has done something praiseworthy. I realize, of course, that he has a huge incentive to be working on his car, as it will help him "leave" when he is 18. Whatever.

He has been amicable the last couple weeks, but he NEEDS me to pass his test. I HAVE to ride with him legally while he is practicing and I have to take him to his test. Once he is done "using me" it will be same old same old. Probably worse because with his license he will expect more freedom. There can be some, but he always wants more than I will allow. Gee, like I will let him be at his girlfriends house alone for hours. Yeah. NOT.

But anyway, I probably do need to find more positive things to say daily. Once in awhile is not good enough, I am sure.

Poetry4Me75, when you want to quote someone, look at the bottom of their post...you can delete out what you don't want in it, if you are wanting to focus on only one part of their posts.

I have to say that, (and no offensive here as I know you are doing the best you can), that your posts are difficult to understand because of the way you lay them out and that might be why some of us are having problems getting a good understanding of your situation.

This is what I think you are saying...maybe you can say yes or no on these important points..

You made God the center of your life and your childrens life when you got your divorce which was many years ago...yes?

And you pray for God's guidance everyday in regards to your children and especially so with this son we are talking about now, yes?

And you want more then anything for him to come back to God too...yes?

But he has rejected God...is that right?

Your son is angry, rebellious, lazy and unmotivated to the extreme...but you know he has potential to do better...he just doesn't want too...correct?

Most teenagers are the above (which I am sure you realize) just not to this extreme...which you realize too or you wouldn't be posting on here...

And you have tried everything you can think of to help him have a better life and correct his bad behavior...right?

You have never given up though and you love your son and cried many tears too over this and carry some guilt from his early years...correct?

That is what I am reading in a nut shell anyway. I told you I think, my son went through some terrible things as a young child and we both endured alot of verbal abuse by his dad and he learned alot of really bad things. And it took me many years to undo all of that and to reteach him things he learned from his dad. For instance, his dad told him if he saw something just laying on the ground it was ok to take it. That lead to my son taking toys out of other kids yards which is stealing...and I had to explain it was stealing and wrong. Partly due to his age and believing his dad was right, I had a hard time getting him to accept this. First he didn't want to believe his dad was wrong...second, he just rebelled against my teachings. Until one day someone took his bike he left in the front yard! Boy did he cry and cry over that! I hated to say it to him...but I did use that as an example of why we don't take things from other yards...he sure didn't like it...well neither do they...

He suffered a real life situation in this that taught him what I couldn't. Sometimes natural conquenses work well...but I see your son's natural conquenses on having bad grades still isn't getting through to him since he blames you for them anyway. My ex was like this SO bad. Everything he did wrong was someone else's fault and my son did this blame game for years too. :( Its very frustrating to deal with someone like this because they aren't being rational at all! They have alot of distorted thinking going on for sure...

I have also carried guilt too from the early years with my son for many things. While I am better with that now, I know it can cause me to be a little overprotective of him. (not saying you are overprotective with your son...just saying that is how it affected me)

Anyway I would like for you to take a look at this website and see if it describes your son:
oppositional defiant disorder (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/oppositional-defiant-disorder/DS00630/DSECTION=symptoms)
It may be tough at times to recognize the difference between a strong-willed or emotional child and one with oppositional defiant disorder. Certainly there's a range between the normal independence-seeking behavior of children and oppositional defiant disorder. It's normal to exhibit oppositional behaviors at certain stages of a child's development.

However, your child's issue may be oppositional defiant disorder if your child's oppositional behaviors:

* Are persistent
* Have lasted at least six months
* Are clearly disruptive to the family and home or school environment

The following are behaviors associated with ODD:

* Negativity
* Defiance
* Disobedience
* Hostility directed toward authority figures

These behaviors might cause your child to regularly and consistently show these symptoms:

* Frequent temper tantrums
* Argumentativeness with adults
* Refusal to comply with adult requests or rules
* Deliberate annoyance of other people
* Blaming others for mistakes or misbehavior
* Acting touchy and easily annoyed
* Anger and resentment
* Spiteful or vindictive behavior
* Aggressiveness toward peers
* Difficulty maintaining friendships
* Academic problems

Related mental health issues
Oppositional defiant disorder often occurs along with other behavioral or mental health problems such as attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), anxiety or depression. The symptoms of ODD may be difficult to distinguish from those of other behavioral or mental health problems.

It's important to diagnose and treat any co-occurring illnesses because they can create or worsen irritability and defiance if left untreated. Additionally, it's important to identify and treat any related substance abuse and dependence. Substance abuse and dependence in children or adolescents is often associated with irritability and changes in the child or adolescent's usual personality.

Let me know what you think. If you think your son fits this..please click on the link for more information and help on how to handle your son's behavior.

I am praying for you and your son!

God bless

Raising kids is tough. We raised 5. Had 5 teens at once. Hormones popping all over the place. All were influenced by kids who were raising themselves thanks to working single parents. And they know all the laws and how to use it against the parents.

Somehow we made it. Hindsight is 20/20. Now they are in their 20's and two are raising kids themselves. We have never looked smarter. That's what time will do. Be careful not to over react as hard as that is.

If kids don't want to clean their rooms after constant reminders. Tell them their room will be clean tomorrow. Choose a school day. Go in and toss everything in trash bags. Take all the bags and put them in the basement. They are attached to those favorite jeans. Good luck finding them.

I found cigarette butts around my son's bed. I took the bed apart and put it in the garage. He wanted the bed back and I allowed it. It was his effort to put it back together and taught him a good lesson.

What can you do to find some common ground? Would he prefer living with someone else? Live by their rules. Maybe your dad and has to have 2 hours counseling each week to figure things out. He can come back on weekends if he shows respect. And yes, he gets his door back. Offering something will helkp to find other common ground and when you disagree, find better ways to still be a family.

Wish you well.

Poppa

Your son is very angry. He is tossing typical bombs such as "Christians are hypocrites". I remember my son wearing black nylons on his arms and having a spiral on his head, with black fingernail polish. He was a mess. But we could have chased him away from us. I figured we had tried to raise him. After 15, he was pretty well his own person. If he lived at home, he had rules which got broke most of the time.

He joined the Army and was on the front cover of People Magazine. He met the President and got pictures. He served in Iraq and we could not be prouder. He is one of my best friends. I have stopped trying to live his life. It may not be everything I could hope for, but I am glad to have him for who he is. He is my son.

God works in mysterious ways. Be sure to give Him plenty of room too.

Poppa

If his idea of teenage rebellion is writing letters, being petty, and abusing... caffeine (lol), then I wouldn't worry too much.

I am praying for you!

You have a cocktail of spiritual battles here.

Sadly, I am not hearing enough of your husband in these matters.

Let me share, my kids KNOW they can not get away with any of the stuff your son is trying. They know they will have to deal with punishment. No matter if we need to spank, ground, discipline, whatever. Even if I had to stay home for months on end to deal with them first hand, they know not to cross the line. The boundaries are quite clear. My wife has my complete support, and vice versa, our children see us as one.

I tell my kids "I Love You" all the time. My girls never seem to hear it enough.


I don't know what you have researched, but your son is under a generational curse, acts like his biological father, does like, etc... He has had sin put on him by his biological father, ie divorce, not being a dad, you can name a few I'm sure. I'm confident you are dealing with sin put upon you as well. Only Jesus can help you get rid of this baggage, and free both of you, but you both must confess it as sin & ask Jesus to take it away.

One thing I haven't heard, Do you and your son ever sit down & have a real Heart to Heart talk, bonding time. Where you can get him to share what is going on in his head, heart. Share thoughts, dreams, plans, ideas, goals, desires?

Being a teenager is tough, hormones alone are hell to deal with. Then you throw bad people, bad spirits, movies, radio, tv, internet garbage. It can feel overwhelming.

I pray the Lord gives you clear guidance, for both you and your son on the direction you both need to help get over these hurdles. In Jesus name I pray. Amen!

Sorry I don't have more time to go furthur, but i'll check back later.

My prayers for your entire family & especially for God's will in this matter.

Really, all I have to add is this: "Let Go & Let God", pray earnestly.

I really wish my parents had taken more time when I was a child to seek out understanding about my siblings & myself so they would know what it was we truly needed.. not wanted, but needed.

Sometimes it's not about our reaction to a child's conduct (as in how they affect us) but what is really causing their behavior to be so unruly.

It could be something as simple as a food allergy triggering a behavioral disorder, a lacking of key vitamins his body needs as his own hormones are changing, causing him added grief on top of going through puberty.

Sometimes we need to think "outside the box" as parents. I do agree this is common rebellion & is very hard on a family but if you give up on your son, how can your other children be expected to trust in your love? How will your Son, if/when he does heal from this rebellion, ever be able to believe you truly love him?

I'm just trying to give you some more things to consider and am in no way trying to trivialize the situation. I know it's hard on the whole family but I also know that within the story of the Prodigal Son, his Father didn't abandon him & I do believe scripture is where God's answer's are with much prayer in seeking His guidance.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I feel bad for this kid. His whole life sounds like boundaries, he has no freedom. He's stuck out in the country, he's not allowed to drink pop, I didn't even know it was possible to abuse caffiene. Didn't you ever gripe about your parents to your friends when you were a teenager?

He's 17 and his treat is a candybar?

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I feel bad for this kid. His whole life sounds like boundaries, he has no freedom. He's stuck out in the country, he's not allowed to drink pop, I didn't even know it was possible to abuse caffiene. Didn't you ever gripe about your parents to your friends when you were a teenager?

He's 17 and his treat is a candybar?
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:idea: I second that and agree totally Lordistruth :o :cry: I believe he would be destroyed forever when it comes to trust if he read this thread :o u have got to be totally out of your tree to actually think that the problems is all the kid :o Im shocked ,just shocked :o this is scary :eek:
teens are human beings not animals

I really want to send him away, but I don't want him to feel un-loved. I love him, but I do not like him. I know this sounds harsh but this has been going on for YEARS and while we are less than a year away from his 18th, I know he will fall flat on his face when he tries to make it on his own, what am I supposed to do? Emancipation is not an option. I sometimes wish it were.

:o believe me he already knows your heart ,and wish he could be in yours ,and have a open trusting conversation with you and know in his own that he was really loved :(

You Lost :eek: and u did it Big time :cry: u may as well pack his bags and wish him well and he may get to a weller state of mind after he is away from you :pray: He knows you want that most of all and there was nothing he could do about that

That was up to you , not him :(

your the one driving the bus ,and he is screaming inside for :help: and most likely needs it for real :note:

He needs the boundaries. Yet, he needs to be treated like a someone who isn't in grade school.

We tell our kids this. You may not like being accountable, have the boundaries we have set for you. You may hate them. But what happens when you need to be at work from 7 - 4? Those are boundaries too. If you aren't at work from 7 - 4 what boss in their right mind is going to keep you on? We can't fire you as our child but someday someone will if you kick against the boundaries. Learn now when the mistakes are small. Making bigger ones later will be on your own head, and then don't come to us and cry about it.

Just because they want to be out from under a thumb doesn't mean another won't be there to take it's place. Accountability will always be there: I'm responsible and accountable to my husband and vice versa. Adults are not exempt from any of those things.

My husband has told our son that if he ever gets picked up by the cops and it's your actions that got you there - we'll be there in the morning unless the cops require us to come and get you right away. Then, no matter what sort of trouble you are in with them - count yourself lucky. You will have stepped outside of our guidelines and boundaries before you got caught by them. Had you stayed in the way we taught you there wouldn't have been a reason to get caught for anything. He'll have to take his licks.

Your son as well.

We have an 18 year old friend of my son's living with us right now. He left because it was either him or his mom leaving his dad. Granted - mom, dad and this friend are all at fault. Most likely mom and dad more than anything. They are adults acting like children, and both claim Christ. This friend was homeless, penniless, and lost. He knows he needs to do what needs doing just to have gas to get to his part time job, car insurance, and keep his phone on. If your son thinks that life is easy tell him to go ahead and leave. We laid down boundaries with this kid and expect him to follow them. We've already had to call him on a couple things and he respects us for it. It's the way it is.

Your son is simply a 17 year old having a major tantrum. Tantrums don't an adult make despite what he thinks. He has to realize that, and you or your husband are most likely not the ones who will teach him that lesson.

He needs the boundaries. Yet, he needs to be treated like a someone who isn't in grade school.

We tell our kids this. You may not like being accountable, have the boundaries we have set for you. You may hate them. But what happens when you need to be at work from 7 - 4? Those are boundaries too. If you aren't at work from 7 - 4 what boss in their right mind is going to keep you on? We can't fire you as our child but someday someone will if you kick against the boundaries. Learn now when the mistakes are small. Making bigger ones later will be on your own head, and then don't come to us and cry about it.

Just because they want to be out from under a thumb doesn't mean another won't be there to take it's place. Accountability will always be there: I'm responsible and accountable to my husband and vice versa. Adults are not exempt from any of those things.

My husband has told our son that if he ever gets picked up by the cops and it's your actions that got you there - we'll be there in the morning unless the cops require us to come and get you right away. Then, no matter what sort of trouble you are in with them - count yourself lucky. You will have stepped outside of our guidelines and boundaries before you got caught by them. Had you stayed in the way we taught you there wouldn't have been a reason to get caught for anything. He'll have to take his licks.

Your son as well.

We have an 18 year old friend of my son's living with us right now. He left because it was either him or his mom leaving his dad. Granted - mom, dad and this friend are all at fault. Most likely mom and dad more than anything. They are adults acting like children, and both claim Christ. This friend was homeless, penniless, and lost. He knows he needs to do what needs doing just to have gas to get to his part time job, car insurance, and keep his phone on. If your son thinks that life is easy tell him to go ahead and leave. We laid down boundaries with this kid and expect him to follow them. We've already had to call him on a couple things and he respects us for it. It's the way it is.

Your son is simply a 17 year old having a major tantrum. Tantrums don't an adult make despite what he thinks. He has to realize that, and you or your husband are most likely not the ones who will teach him that lesson.
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That is rock solid good advice , most spoiled teens should really be grateful they have extraordinary easy terms of endearment :cool: Some have had more responsibilities at age 7 than most adults going on 40
Age is sometimes irrelevant to life and the circumstances of it . One of the gravest problems of society is millions of teens have absolutely no learned survival skills to speak of whatsoever :rolleyes: and no life skills either . I see it as a horrendous injustice that it is that way .I guess what most consider normalcy is to go to school and play ball and goof off most the time . Those are the Blessed ,the truly Blessed