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c7_black
May 4th 2009, 08:56 PM
I'm new to this, but I'm confused! I've read alot of threads and alot of you talk about OSAS? What is that or what does that stand for?

ingegneriae
May 4th 2009, 08:58 PM
Once Saved, Always Saved.

Cyberseeker
May 4th 2009, 09:49 PM
The opposite to OSAS is 'Saved Now Out Tomorrow.' (SNOT) :cool:

David Taylor
May 4th 2009, 10:20 PM
I'm new to this, but I'm confused! I've read alot of threads and alot of you talk about OSAS? What is that or what does that stand for?


Most folks fall into one of two camps.

Either they believe that once you are saved, you cannot fall away. (OSAS)
or that you can fall away once you've been saved. (not OSAS)

It gets in the the Calvin/Arminian discussions, and is a pretty hot-button of debate within Protestantism.

My heart's Desire
May 6th 2009, 04:43 AM
My version is If Jesus Christ saved you He did
If Jesus Christ didn't save you He didn't. ;)

quiet dove
May 7th 2009, 12:53 AM
This is more of a Bible Chat topic so I am going to move it over there. :)

Butch5
May 7th 2009, 02:00 AM
I'm new to this, but I'm confused! I've read alot of threads and alot of you talk about OSAS? What is that or what does that stand for?

It is a man made doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther. Although he may not have originated it, he is the one who popularized it. It does not appear in Church history prior to about 1500 A.D.

crossnote
May 7th 2009, 05:57 AM
The opposite to OSAS is 'Saved Now Out Tomorrow.' (SNOT) :cool:

I thought the opposite was 'OSAID' or Once Saved Always In Doubt. :rofl:

crossnote
May 7th 2009, 06:04 AM
It is a man made doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther. Although he may not have originated it, he is the one who popularized it. It does not appear in Church history prior to about 1500 A.D.

Oh pleeeze. Cite just one quote of Luther where he holds to OSAS. Unlike Calvin he believed that if a Christian ultimately turns from Christ and dies unbelieving then he would be lost.

Watchmen
May 7th 2009, 06:06 AM
It is a man made doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther. Although he may not have originated it, he is the one who popularized it. It does not appear in Church history prior to about 1500 A.D.This is the truth of the subject. OSAS teaches that once you ''get saved'' the you are eternally secure even if you continue to commit unrepentant chronic sin, living in rebellion to God and His word, walking the wide path that leads to destruction. It is absurd that it is accepted as a plausable belief in any church.

kay-gee
May 7th 2009, 11:43 AM
It is a very scary doctrine because it suggests that one can tip their hat to Christ and then live any old way they want. I believe millions will be lost on accout of tis heresy.

all the best...

Partaker of Christ
May 7th 2009, 01:55 PM
It is a very scary doctrine because it suggests that one can tip their hat to Christ and then live any old way they want. I believe millions will be lost on accout of tis heresy.

all the best...

It suggests nothing of the sort.

You will know them by their fruit.

Those who have Christ, are a new creation. If there is no new life, then they do not have Christ in them.

Anyone who wants to continue 'living' the "any old way they want" are not being led by the Spirit, and are none of His.

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 12:23 AM
It suggests nothing of the sort.

You will know them by their fruit.

Those who have Christ, are a new creation. If there is no new life, then they do not have Christ in them.

Anyone who wants to continue 'living' the "any old way they want" are not being led by the Spirit, and are none of His.

What then of the one who believes, bears much fruit for many years and then goes into chronic unrepentant sin?

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 12:27 AM
Oh pleeeze. Cite just one quote of Luther where he holds to OSAS. Unlike Calvin he believed that if a Christian ultimately turns from Christ and dies unbelieving then he would be lost.

I stand corrected, I should have said it came in with the reformation as you are correct, Luther did "not" hold to OSAS, Calvin, however did.

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 02:01 AM
Most folks fall into one of two camps.

Either they believe that once you are saved, you cannot fall away. (OSAS)
or that you can fall away once you've been saved. (not OSAS)

It gets in the the Calvin/Arminian discussions, and is a pretty hot-button of debate within Protestantism.

I think there is a third camp. OSAS folks are not the same folks who believe in Perseverance of the Saints. OSAS teaches that once a person comes forward at church, confesses a belief in Jesus at that time, that person is saved no matter what they do the rest of their life. Calvinists don't believe that and neither do Arminians. :)

Edit: Edited to add that OSAS is otherwise known as "Free Grace" theology which is different than the Calvinist "Perseverance of the saints."

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 02:01 AM
I stand corrected, I should have said it came in with the reformation as you are correct, Luther did "not" hold to OSAS, Calvin, however did.

I very much doubt that Calvin held to OSAS.

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 02:11 AM
I very much doubt that Calvin held to OSAS.

How do you figure that?

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 02:16 AM
How do you figure that?

As I pointed out, OSAS is a "Free Grace" doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the saints. The two are entirely different.

Tomlane
May 9th 2009, 02:18 AM
I also don't believe going down forward in a church saves anyone. There is a fine line between putting one's trust in Christ and going down front because of an emotional experience.

I might add I have come to the conclusion that in large crusades that probably most who go down front have had a conviction of being a sinner perhaps but that doesn't actually exhibits being born again.

I believe when this practice is put on by many denominations it is to build up the membership of those sects that promoted the crusade to start with. Because that was what the crusade's motive was about to start with. And what a better way to weed out the newbies then by having them come down front where they can get contact info the them and invite them to their church.

Tomlane

Butch5
May 9th 2009, 02:57 AM
As I pointed out, OSAS is a "Free Grace" doctrine, not the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the saints. The two are entirely different.

Well, Calvin believed that the elect were saved in such a way that they could not be lost. It seems to me there is not much difference.

Watchmen
May 9th 2009, 03:20 AM
I think there is a third camp. OSAS folks are not the same folks who believe in Perseverance of the Saints. OSAS teaches that once a person comes forward at church, confesses a belief in Jesus at that time, that person is saved no matter what they do the rest of their life. Calvinists don't believe that and neither do Arminians. :)

Edit: Edited to add that OSAS is otherwise known as "Free Grace" theology which is different than the Calvinist "Perseverance of the saints."This may be true but both are false.

BroRog
May 9th 2009, 06:38 PM
This may be true but both are false.

Actually, Perseverance of the saints has biblical support.

But before I go there, let me back up a bit and talk about OSAS and the Free Grace idea.

If I understand OSAS and the Free Grace doctrine, the basis of their main idea is a passage from Romans 10:9-10.

. . . that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9-10


These brothers and sisters in Christ understand this Romans passage in terms of a mathematical formula. Just as surely as adding one plus one makes two, confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart results in salvation. If a person comes forward at church, confesses Jesus as Lord, and really, really, sincerely believe it he or she is saved at that moment.

Other brothers and sisters will remind them that, though a person is saved when they believe, perseverance in belief is not guaranteed or expected since the Bible continually warns us to keep believing and that only those who continue to believe will be saved, according to other passages.

So the arguments against OSAS tend to reply with "once believed, not always believed."

The doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", unlike OSAS does not affirm that a person is saved immediately upon confession and belief. Rather, Calvinist doctrine teaches that God will save the elect, and that perseverance in belief is evidence of election. In fact, Calvinists teach that regeneration actually precedes faith in the order of salvation, both being a gift of God's grace. And since God intends to save the elect, perseverance is as sure as God's promise.

Tomlane
May 9th 2009, 08:32 PM
BroRog, you stated:


Other brothers and sisters will remind them that, though a person is saved when they believe, perseverance in belief is not guaranteed or expected since the Bible continually warns us to keep believing and that only those who continue to believe will be saved, according to other passages.

It would seem to me that if one has to continue to believe to be saved then that person is not saved for that is working for salvation and is no longer grace.

Once we believe and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit no one is going to have to keep believing as it to keep their salvation. I'm hoping you didn't mean that the way you stated it or that I taking it. That's like saying once I'm born physically, that if I don't keep believing it I will loose out and vanish. Being born spiritual and being a new creation in Christ won't ever change if a person does not continue to believe for whatever reason. No one can pluck them out of the father's hand. God can't break his word once we are sealed. God doesn't make a creature then destroy it because it is mule headed like all human's are with their sinful natures that will never change until the body is in the grave.

But other than BroRog, your understand is very good and spiritual mature from what I have read of your replies. Keep up the good work.

Tomlane

Butch5
May 10th 2009, 02:45 AM
BroRog, you stated:



It would seem to me that if one has to continue to believe to be saved then that person is not saved for that is working for salvation and is no longer grace.

Once we believe and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit no one is going to have to keep believing as it to keep their salvation. I'm hoping you didn't mean that the way you stated it or that I taking it. That's like saying once I'm born physically, that if I don't keep believing it I will loose out and vanish. Being born spiritual and being a new creation in Christ won't ever change if a person does not continue to believe for whatever reason. No one can pluck them out of the father's hand. God can't break his word once we are sealed. God doesn't make a creature then destroy it because it is mule headed like all human's are with their sinful natures that will never change until the body is in the grave.

But other than BroRog, your understand is very good and spiritual mature from what I have read of your replies. Keep up the good work.

Tomlane

So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?

Tomlane
May 10th 2009, 04:38 AM
Butch, you stated:


So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?

Butch the issue is wither a person can keep their salvation if they don't persevere in their faith as stated by BroRog.

BroRog stated:


The doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", unlike OSAS does not affirm that a person is saved immediately upon confession and belief. Rather, Calvinist doctrine teaches that God will save the elect, and that perseverance in belief is evidence of election. In fact, Calvinists teach that regeneration actually precedes faith in the order of salvation, both being a gift of God's grace. And since God intends to save the elect, perseverance is as sure as God's promise.


The reason God promises us eternal life and seal us with his holy spirit, is because he knows before hand we will not persevere in the faith. Because we still have our old flesh and that never changes, it still stays as sin. Also by the same token, our new man can't sin and we have the choice which one we are going to serve. Our new man or our sinful flesh.

Ephesians 1:13 *In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 *Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Read the above carefully it says in whom we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Nothing said there about persevering.

Romans 8:8 *So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 *But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 *¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 *But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 *Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 *For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 *For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 *¶And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Verse 13 says: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

One way we live after the flesh instead of by faith is persevering so we won't loose our salvation. Ether a person has salvation or they don't. Persevering makes salvation conditional. The same thing can be said in a different way, and can be stated as falling away from the faith.

Persevering in the faith means walking in the faith and it is not to keep salvation but to serve Christ as that is a believers reasonable service.

Romans 12:1 *¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Keeping in the faith is walking in God's word for that is where faith.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If we choose not to walk in God's word at all then that person will get an early ticket home.

God does not throw us away if he is displeased with or we don't persevere. That is a doctrine of devils.

31 *¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 *He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things

If God is with us then how can we possibly be against ourselves? Are we mightier then God? Of course not.

Romans 8:37 *Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 *For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 *Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Since believers are more than conquerors through him that loves us, how in the world can we be failures bye loosing our faith by not persevering when neither depths, nor heights, or any other creature or even death, nor angels can separate us from God.

There fore in conclusion, believing we have to persevere to keep one's salvation is carnal thinking of the natural mind and that is walking after the flesh and that can keep us from finding salvation as a free gift.

Tomlane

Partaker of Christ
May 10th 2009, 06:43 PM
What then of the one who believes, bears much fruit for many years and then goes into chronic unrepentant sin?

If we are to believe scripture:
They would be chastised by our Heavenly Father, who loves His children.

HTH

Partaker of Christ
May 10th 2009, 07:19 PM
Actually, Perseverance of the saints has biblical support.

But before I go there, let me back up a bit and talk about OSAS and the Free Grace idea.

If I understand OSAS and the Free Grace doctrine, the basis of their main idea is a passage from Romans 10:9-10.

. . . that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:9-10


These brothers and sisters in Christ understand this Romans passage in terms of a mathematical formula. Just as surely as adding one plus one makes two, confessing with the mouth and believing in the heart results in salvation. If a person comes forward at church, confesses Jesus as Lord, and really, really, sincerely believe it he or she is saved at that moment.

Other brothers and sisters will remind them that, though a person is saved when they believe, perseverance in belief is not guaranteed or expected since the Bible continually warns us to keep believing and that only those who continue to believe will be saved, according to other passages.

So the arguments against OSAS tend to reply with "once believed, not always believed."

The doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints", unlike OSAS does not affirm that a person is saved immediately upon confession and belief. Rather, Calvinist doctrine teaches that God will save the elect, and that perseverance in belief is evidence of election. In fact, Calvinists teach that regeneration actually precedes faith in the order of salvation, both being a gift of God's grace. And since God intends to save the elect, perseverance is as sure as God's promise.

Hi BroRog!

My understanding of a 'saved' person is one who has received the word and understood (the good ground).

"You will know them by their fruit"

We are not God, and so we are not privy to knowing a persons heart, so we would only know them by their fruit. Until we see the fruit, we must exhort them to continue, persevere, endure.

You might notice that many of these exhortations, were given to newly formed Churches, and Christians, who were still yet fleshy, carnal and still on the milk. You will also notice that the words were "If You" continue. "If You" and not "If We" continue.

If they have fruit, then the word has been received and understood, grounded and rooted. Until there is fruit, there would remain some element of doubt.

Matt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Question:
Can a good seed, ever become a bad seed (or a tare)?

Partaker of Christ
May 10th 2009, 07:53 PM
So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?

I find it amazing that you think it possible, for someone to truly believe, and then later not believe?
Sure, if someone has only mentally believed, they can change their mind. If someone has emotionally acknowledged the truth, and received it with joy, they can change emotionally.

Those who have truly believed, are those who have received the word and understood it.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Some have a knowledge of the Lord, and some have a knowing the Lord.

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 12:17 AM
Butch, you stated:



Butch the issue is wither a person can keep their salvation if they don't persevere in their faith as stated by BroRog.

BroRog stated:



The reason God promises us eternal life and seal us with his holy spirit, is because he knows before hand we will not persevere in the faith. Because we still have our old flesh and that never changes, it still stays as sin. Also by the same token, our new man can't sin and we have the choice which one we are going to serve. Our new man or our sinful flesh.

Ephesians 1:13 *In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 *Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Read the above carefully it says in whom we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Nothing said there about persevering.

Romans 8:8 *So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 *But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 *¶And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 *But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 *Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 *For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 *For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 *For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 *¶And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Verse 13 says: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

One way we live after the flesh instead of by faith is persevering so we won't loose our salvation. Ether a person has salvation or they don't. Persevering makes salvation conditional. The same thing can be said in a different way, and can be stated as falling away from the faith.

Persevering in the faith means walking in the faith and it is not to keep salvation but to serve Christ as that is a believers reasonable service.

Romans 12:1 *¶I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Keeping in the faith is walking in God's word for that is where faith.

Romans 10:17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If we choose not to walk in God's word at all then that person will get an early ticket home.

God does not throw us away if he is displeased with or we don't persevere. That is a doctrine of devils.

31 *¶What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 *He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things

If God is with us then how can we possibly be against ourselves? Are we mightier then God? Of course not.

Romans 8:37 *Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 *For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 *Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Since believers are more than conquerors through him that loves us, how in the world can we be failures bye loosing our faith by not persevering when neither depths, nor heights, or any other creature or even death, nor angels can separate us from God.

There fore in conclusion, believing we have to persevere to keep one's salvation is carnal thinking of the natural mind and that is walking after the flesh and that can keep us from finding salvation as a free gift.

Tomlane

Tomlane,

What you claim is the doctrine of devils, is stated in Scripture. Jesus said, He who endures to the end shall be saved.

Tomlane
May 11th 2009, 03:10 AM
Butch you stated: Tomlane,


What you claim is the doctrine of devils, is stated in Scripture. Jesus said, He who endures to the end shall be saved.

Butch thank you for your opinion since you gave zero scripture to back you up. Anyone can accuse some of falsehood as you have done. I gave many scriptures and he way I see it you are calling God a liar as well.

Also when you state endure to the end. Endure what Butch?

Your reply is so vague it really not worth a reply without you backing up what you believe.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Since you have done that based on your lack of scripture, do you agree with 1 Thessalonians 5:21?

If you do at least that would be a starting point for us Butch. Thanks again for replying.

Tomlane

Vhayes
May 11th 2009, 04:19 AM
So then one can turn away in unbelief and live in unrepentant sin for the rest of their life and they will still be saved?
Butch, I'm not saying this to be argumentative.

I believe a person can accept Christ, believe with all their heart, soul and mind, be sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - and still fall back into the world. I also believe God will chastise that child with ever increasing discipline until that child returns. If the child crosses a line (and I have no idea what that line is) I believe God will take them out of this world rather than have them bring shame on the name of Christ.

That's what I believe based on about a 10 month study of the epistle to the Hebrews.

V

Veretax
May 11th 2009, 05:18 PM
This is the truth of the subject. OSAS teaches that once you ''get saved'' the you are eternally secure even if you continue to commit unrepentant chronic sin, living in rebellion to God and His word, walking the wide path that leads to destruction. It is absurd that it is accepted as a plausable belief in any church.


I find it absurd to believe that It was impossible to be saved by the Law (as we learn from this passage in romans)


Romans 3:19-28 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all F15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+3:20&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1#F15) who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Why then is it impossible to be saved by works of the law before faith, and yet its possible to lose salvation by not doing works of the law after. That to me is the absurdity of NOSAS. Sin does not enter the equation here. Because sin was made manifest by the law.

grit
May 11th 2009, 08:20 PM
I'm new to this, but I'm confused! I've read alot of threads and alot of you talk about OSAS? What is that or what does that stand for?
Welcome, c7, to our little community, where we love the Bible but often disagree on just we find there.

As you can see in this thread too, we don't even always agree on what is meant by OSAS apart from some manner of fleshing it out as "Once Saved, Always Saved". Some find great similarity between OSAS, "eternal security", preservation of the saints, perseverance of the saints, and some find radical differences between these. Some present OSAS in a very negative sense of allowing a so-called Christian to do whatever evil he wants after some so-called 'salvation' event in his life, while others interpret OSAS in definitions where salvation means salvation in a permanent sense, rather than a temporary rescue. It pretty much depends on who you're talking with and in what context as to which of these is meant or emphasized. The prevailing wind of present Christian theology tends to align OSAS with its most negative aspects, in a pejorative sense, attacking any semblance of a lax Christian lifestyle. I'm one of those who sees in it a reassurance that God will never ever leave me (Heb. 13:5 (http://bible.cc/hebrews/13-5.htm), Deut. 31:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2031:6-8;&version=49;)). I believe in both Matthew 13:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&version=49&context=chapter) AND John 10:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=49&context=context).

I think it safe to say that most all of us are on board with God being almighty, with salvation and grace being of God, with God being sovereign on His own throne over all His creation rather than man, and with the blood of Christ Jesus being eternally efficacious and powerful to save. And I'd have to reiterate than none of the early leaders of the Christian church taught against this. While it's certainly true that they didn't label this as OSAS, it roughly took much of the Church's early energies to hash out details of just who God and Jesus were and to establish the Scriptures they were going to authoritatively use as a rule for any Christian doctrine. While God's ability to eternally save was never in doubt, much of the minutia of salvation was a little lower on their list of priorities. They all taught that salvation was from God and that Christians ought to live a holy life.

As you've noticed, there are plenty of threads here about OSAS, and more sure to follow. There's plenty written elsewhere on various Christian views of the matter as well. I'm not a Baptist, but I think Jack Hughes of Calvary Baptist Church has some interesting reading (http://www.calvarybiblechurch.org/sermons.aspx/text/sermon/2007/20070729.htm) on the believer's eternal secuity under God's sovereignty.

JWayne
May 11th 2009, 08:56 PM
Salvation is BELIEVING in Jesus Christ

Salvation is trusting or believing in, by faith, that Jesus Christ paid for your sins with His blood on the cross of Calvary.

"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ." John 3:36

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

We are NOT saved by WORKS

The Bible makes it clear that OUR WORKS has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
We don't receive it by our works — and we don't keep it by our works!

" NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9


Salvation is a FREE GIFT

Salvation is the free gift of God. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

". . . the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

". . .by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Salvation is a NEW BIRTH.

Salvation is not enduring or a process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in THE DAY OF SALVATION have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted TIME; behold, now is THE DAY OF SALVATION.)" 2 Corinthians 6:2

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

You become a CHILD OF GOD

Once you are born again SPIRITUALLY — you become a child of God.

"Beloved, NOW are we the SONS OF GOD, . . ." 1 John 3:2

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, FATHER." Romans 8:15

Nothing can SEPARATE us from our Father

Just as nothing can "negate" your physical birth, nothing can "negate" your spiritual birth.

My children will always be my children. We may have troubled times. Our fellowship may be broken, but our relationship can never be broken. They will always be my children. Nothing or nobody can change that! And once you are born again spiritually — God becomes your Father — nothing or nobody can change that! Your fellowship may be broken, but your relationship can never be broken!

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

Jesus will NEVER leave us

Jesus promised He will never leave us. Jesus could not say this if there was even a chance of losing our salvation.

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

". . . and, lo, I am with you ALWAY, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

We already HAVE eternal life

When the Bible speaks of possessing eternal life, it speaks in the present tense (hath, have, etc.) — SOMETHING WE ALREADY HAVE! If we had to work or endure to keep our salvation, this could not be true.

"He that believeth on the Son HATH EVERLASTING LIFE:.. ." John 3:36

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ." 1 John 5:13

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ." John 5:24

Jesus will NOT cast you out

". . . him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT." John 6:37
We are COMPLETE in Jesus Christ

"And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power:" Colossians 2:10

We are PERFECTED FOR EVER

We are "perfected for ever" by Jesus Christ. How could the Lord say such a bold statement if we had to earn or keep our salvation?

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

We are PRESERVED in Christ Jesus

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED IN JESUS CHRIST, and called:" Jude 1

"And THE LORD. . . WILL PRESERVE ME unto his heavenly kingdom:. . ." 2 Timothy 4:18

We are KEPT by the POWER of God

"Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:5

"Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24

We are saved to the UTTERMOST

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,. . ." Hebrews 7:25

We are SEALED until the day of redemption

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

". . .after that ye believed, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise," Ephesians 1:13

What about the BACKSLIDER?

What about the "backslider" or somebody that forsakes the Lord? The Bible says he will suffer loss (rewards, etc.) — but he himself shall be saved!

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

We become the BODY OF CHRIST

"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30

"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18

What if we later — BELIEVE NOT?

Our salvation is so secure — even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13

But what if I sin an awful sin?

1 Corinthians 5 reports of an awful sin in the church. And even though Paul commands ". . . To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" — Paul still speaks of that person being saved — ". . .that the spirit MAY BE SAVED. . ."

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. . .To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:1,5


To lose your salvation — makes God a LIAR

With all the PROMISES from God to KEEP you, to SAVE you, to PRESERVE you — to even suggest you could lose your salvation — is to call God a LIAR!

". . .he that BELIEVETH NOT GOD hath made him a LIAR; . . ." 1 John 5:10

Butch5
May 11th 2009, 11:15 PM
Butch, I'm not saying this to be argumentative.

I believe a person can accept Christ, believe with all their heart, soul and mind, be sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - and still fall back into the world. I also believe God will chastise that child with ever increasing discipline until that child returns. If the child crosses a line (and I have no idea what that line is) I believe God will take them out of this world rather than have them bring shame on the name of Christ.

That's what I believe based on about a 10 month study of the epistle to the Hebrews.

V


Well, the number of Scriptures that speak of or warn against falling away are so numerous I don't know how anyone can think OSAS can be true. Here is another that was brought to my attention,


2 Chronicles 15:2 ( KJV )
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Does it get any clearer than that? That's the same thing Paul said,


2 Timothy 2:11-13 ( KJV )
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 12:00 AM
Well, the number of Scriptures that speak of or warn against falling away are so numerous I don't know how anyone can think OSAS can be true. Here is another that was brought to my attention,


2 Chronicles 15:2 ( KJV )
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Does it get any clearer than that? That's the same thing Paul said,


2 Timothy 2:11-13 ( KJV )
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Are you dead with Him?
If so you will live with Him.

If denying Him, means that we will not live with Him, then it is not a faithful saying

So, in 'truth' denying Him, does not cancel out living with Him (if we have died with Him)

Then what does it mean (if you are willing to see it)

If we 'suffer' we will also reign with Him, if we deny Him (refuse to suffer) then He will deny us (not reign with Him)

Many will live with Him, but not all who live with Him, will reign with Him.

Butch5
May 12th 2009, 02:04 AM
Are you dead with Him?
If so you will live with Him.

If denying Him, means that we will not live with Him, then it is not a faithful saying

So, in 'truth' denying Him, does not cancel out living with Him (if we have died with Him)

Then what does it mean (if you are willing to see it)

If we 'suffer' we will also reign with Him, if we deny Him (refuse to suffer) then He will deny us (not reign with Him)

Many will live with Him, but not all who live with Him, will reign with Him.

If we deny Him, He will deny us. That is pretty simple, there really is no need to go to such lengths to explain it away.

I notice you did not touch the passage from 2 Chronicles.

Gendo
May 12th 2009, 03:41 AM
I am encouraged everyday when I read about the great heroes of faith in the Bible that failed our Lord and Savior but our Lord never failed or forgot about them. Remember Peter denied Jesus three times. When Paul talks about if we deny him He will deny us I feel he is talking about the person who hears the message of Jesus but decides to ignore it and never put faith in him for salvation. It is better to be a follower that sometimes fails than one that fails to follow

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 03:49 AM
I find it absurd to believe that It was impossible to be saved by the Law (as we learn from this passage in romans)


Romans 3:19-28 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all F15 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ro+3:20&version=nkj&context=1&showtools=1#F15) who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Why then is it impossible to be saved by works of the law before faith, and yet its possible to lose salvation by not doing works of the law after. That to me is the absurdity of NOSAS. Sin does not enter the equation here. Because sin was made manifest by the law.Scripture tells us those that continue in sin after being ''saved'' are worse off than those that were never saved at all.
Hebrews 4
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


How can you be better off having never been saved and on your way to Hell if you are OSAS and still on your way to Heaven. Now that is absurd.

My heart's Desire
May 12th 2009, 05:22 AM
2 Chronicles about Asa is indeed an interesting situation. But if we've read the O.T we know that true to God's promises to Israel and Judah they were to do His commandments, follow His Laws etc and if they did this and relied on Him, then battles were won and if they did not battles were lost. We noticed several things about this passage.
Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God.
We also know that Judah had been in Idolatry b/c Asa took away the altars of the strange gods and brake the images and cut down groves.
He commanded Judah to seek the LORD God of their fathers, and to do the Law and the commandment. When they did this the Lord gave them rest from war.
We are told that even though the high places were not taken away out of Israel, the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.
But a change in war came when Asa depended on the king of Syria (man) and didn't rely on the Lord and it was then that the host of Syria escaped out of his hand.
The result is chapter 16:9
Because even though his heart was perfect, he had been foolish by not relying on the Lord and the result of that was from there on out he would have wars. Asa also relied on physicians instead of on the Lord when he became diseased and he died.
As we know this commonly happened. When Kings kept the Law and the commandments and taught the people to do so then God was with them in battles, if they did not then God was not. Israel was under the Law and the Commandments.
Does this really prove loss of salvation after salvation is complete?
We know that after Christ died, was buried and rose again that something different happened. We know we are no longer under Law. If Christ didn't make something different happen then the story in Chronicles would only prove that we are in no better shape after Christ than they were then when they were required to obey the Law and keep the Commandments, in order for the Lord to bless them, wouldn't you think? If so, then we would be required also to obey the Law and keep the commandments in order to be saved and remain saved. And if that were so, what difference did Christ make between then and now?

My heart's Desire
May 12th 2009, 05:37 AM
Scripture tells us those that continue in sin after being ''saved'' are worse off than those that were never saved at all.
Hebrews 4
they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
Firstly, this is speaking of when Israel did not enter into the promised Land and why they didn't is because they didn't believe God.
It's all about unbelief. If people know about Christ and know about His sacrifice and yet choose to not believe Him then they have not entered His rest. Having a heart of unbelief is the sin for which there is no more sacrifice.
Those who believe have entered rest and no longer sin willfully for they've already obeyed the truth by believing.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 12:32 PM
Scripture tells us those that continue in sin after being ''saved'' are worse off than those that were never saved at all.
Hebrews 4
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:


Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


How can you be better off having never been saved and on your way to Hell if you are OSAS and still on your way to Heaven. Now that is absurd.

The first passage is speaking particularly about the spiritual state of Israel after the scouting of the Promised Land, in that they did not heed God, and because of that they wandered for 40 years in the wilderness.

As for the second, of course there is no more sacrifice for sins, Christ died once for all sins past, present and future. That's the point. The sin here in question would be leaving Christ, leaving him as in denying him after once accepting him. Frankly, I find it hard to fathom that any true Christian would ever willingly turn back to their former state of being, but ultimately such is not a matter of the law, it is a matter of whether or not you believe what the bible says about Christ.

What this passage tells me is that those that turn from Christ, and this turning is not just an average every day sin, but would have to be a Willful turning against Christ, that such a person has no hope. there is no longer the levitical sacrifices, Christ died for the Sins of old.

However, if you follow these verses to their end you will find the following passage:

Heb 10:35-39 (NKJV)

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,

And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith;

But if anyone draws back,

My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 10:35-39 (NKJV)

Interesting, Paul is talking about being confident. The nature of being able to lose your salvation is the exact opposite of having Confidence in your confession, in your belief. He then adds that we (Christians) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I don't believe it is truly possible for someone to come to faith in Christ and then turn and fall away, I do believe it is possible for some to fool themselves or those around them though.



Before you even get to that passage in 2 Peter he wrote the following:


2 Pe 2:1-2 (NKJV)

Destructive Doctrines

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

2 Peter 2:1-2 (NKJV)


Peter is warning them about false teachers, people who will be so destructive as to even deny the Lord who bought them. Notice this is past tense. Is this purchase completed or to be completed?


He then gives encouragement (4-11) that the Lord knows how to deliver them from temptation, which in effect he is telling them don't lean on your own abilities, but trust in God and he will lead you out of them. The entire text here in verse 20 is talking about the False Teachers, and what will happen to them.

The truth is the devil will try to use a bit of truth mixed with lie to lead people astray, as he tried to do with Christ himself in the wilderness so is the method of these false teachers. They thus know or have knowledge of Christ, but as we should all know by now, knowledge does not equal faith. Knowledge is of the head, belief is of the heart. He even goes to describe their folly, as a dog returning to its own vomit.

This is the end for the false teacher, they will fall away and turn back to their wicked way before they came upon some morsel of the Knowledge of Christ. They were never saved, they never had faith, because if they had faith, they would put their trust not in their own understanding, but upon God's word, and what he says within it.

The Entire point and focus of Peter's 2nd Epistle is to stand fast even in the face of proclaimed teachers who though they carry this title, do not espouse the true faith.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 02:09 PM
If we deny Him, He will deny us. That is pretty simple, there really is no need to go to such lengths to explain it away.

I notice you did not touch the passage from 2 Chronicles.

Just as simple is:

If we died with Him, we shall live with.

Is that a faithful [sure, true] saying or not?

As for 2 Chronicles, I though you always preached about the importance of context?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 03:04 PM
We are not saved until we have endured until the end. It is not about starting the race it is about finishing. There is not guarantee in the Bible that everyone who starts will finish it.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3: 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


Only those that complete the race are guaranteed salvation, not everyone who starts it.


OSAS/free grace is a deception.

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 03:10 PM
We are not saved until we have endured until the end.

I can not phamton the thought of such a statement. How could anyone have faith in God if we never knew where we stood?

Christ died on the cross for my sins, past, present and future, and I am His now and forever and there is nothing that can ever change that fact.

Salvation is NOT a deception. The only deception is in the human mind that does not fully trust in the Lord, and believe that Christ died so that we may have eternal life.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 03:22 PM
I can not phamton the thought of such a statement. How could anyone have faith in God if we never knew where we stood?

Christ died on the cross for my sins, past, present and future, and I am His now and forever and there is nothing that can ever change that fact.

Salvation is NOT a deception. The only deception is in the human mind that does not fully trust in the Lord, and believe that Christ died so that we may have eternal life.I know exactly where I stand. I have found the narrow gate, and am on the straight path and as long as I stay on it, enduring to the end I will receive eternal life.

Salvation is not a deception, the free grace/OSAS teaching is. Paul tells us that are past sins are forgiving when we accept Christ not our future ones, that is the deception that are furture asin are forgiving and that we need not to repent for our future sins.

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 03:42 PM
Well, we'll simply have to agree that we disagree. I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it, and if we get down to it, it really doesn't matter. All that matters is that we understand what a Christian is and how we become one.

Blessings brother.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 03:50 PM
We are not saved until we have endured until the end. It is not about starting the race it is about finishing. There is not guarantee in the Bible that everyone who starts will finish it.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3: 14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


Only those that complete the race are guaranteed salvation, not everyone who starts it.


OSAS/free grace is a deception.

I'm afraid I must disagre. What is the race? Honestly, if someone is living in such fear that with one sin you will lose your salvation, then I question whether such person has the true faith. It is clear from Romans that the Law was not brought to save, but to make the offense abound. Do you understand what that means? it means that the if it were possible to be saved by keeping the law that Christ's crucifixion was unnecessary, but the point is that the Law was brought forth to show mankind that it is impossible to work your way to heaven.

"There is none righteous, no not one." We are not saved by keeping the law, we are not saved by being sinless we are saved by our faith in the only Lord and our Savior Jesus Christ.

As for your race analogy, I think you misinterpret what races are for. They are for Crowns, awards, and medals. They are run so that you might find victory. They are not run to see whether or not you make it to the finish (although in some events people do not finish.) They are run to see who endures to the end, who presses on through trial.

The Race is not about salvation, it is about persevering in the face of persecution, ridicule, and scorn by those around us.





I can not phamton the thought of such a statement. How could anyone have faith in God if we never knew where we stood?

Christ died on the cross for my sins, past, present and future, and I am His now and forever and there is nothing that can ever change that fact.

Salvation is NOT a deception. The only deception is in the human mind that does not fully trust in the Lord, and believe that Christ died so that we may have eternal life.


The people who believe you have to live sinless after salvation, I just shake my head at that. It is like a mighty boat. The SS Titanic sinking, and its crew and passengers overboard and tossed seas. It is as if we are told Salvation is coming, but oh, you have to be able to swim to the boat, we don't have any life boats to go get you. It just utterly makes no sense to me. To say that you cannot have salvation until the end is to say that noone can be a tree Christian to the end. Which is just not biblical. The bible makes it clear that we go through a process called sanctification, by which we are made more like Christ.

I just shake my head when I read stuff like that. If you are rescued at sea, are you saved when you are brought into the lifeboat and brought to the main ship? are you saved when you are in the ship? Or are you saved when you touch dry land again? I'm inclined to think you are saved the moment you are brought out of the ocean, whether that is into a lifeboat, a ship, or upon dry land itself.

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 03:57 PM
Veretax? Not sure what you are referring to with the quote from my post, could you elobrate please?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:01 PM
The people who believe you have to live sinless after salvation, I just shake my head at that. It is like a mighty boat. The SS Titanic sinking, and its crew and passengers overboard and tossed seas. self.That is so funny you say that , because I believe OSAS believers are like the passangers on the Titanic. Living in a false sinse of security, believing themselves to be unsinkable until you die to find Jesus telling you depart from me, you who practice sinfulness.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:06 PM
Well, we'll simply have to agree that we disagree. I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it, and if we get down to it, it really doesn't matter. All that matters is that we understand what a Christian is and how we become one.

Blessings brother.I would agree with you but most OSAS believers have no idea what it means to be a Christian. They think since they have said some prayer asking Jesus into their heart and or were baptized they are a christian, and that is it, they are now eternally secure. However that is not Jesus' description of a Christian. To Jesus a Christian is someone that will deny themaselve, take up their cross, and follow Jesus through the narrow gate, down the straight path that lead to righteousness, baring good fruit as we go. In Jesus' own word, few will find it or do so.

faithfulfriend
May 12th 2009, 04:08 PM
I can not phamton the thought of such a statement. How could anyone have faith in God if we never knew where we stood?

Christ died on the cross for my sins, past, present and future, and I am His now and forever and there is nothing that can ever change that fact.

Salvation is NOT a deception. The only deception is in the human mind that does not fully trust in the Lord, and believe that Christ died so that we may have eternal life.

Where does the Bible say future sins are already forgiven?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:09 PM
The people who believe you have to live sinless after salvation, I just shake my head at that.I have never heard anyone say that, but what we must do is walk in the Spirit who does enable us to live sinlessly, and if we get into the flesh make a mistake we repent of that sin and start anew. What we cannot do is continue in chronic, unrepentant sin and think that we are christians. That is not what scripture teaches us.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 04:11 PM
Veretax? Not sure what you are referring to with the quote from my post, could you elobrate please?

I was agreeing with you. Sorry if that wasn't obvious :D


That is so funny you say that , because I believe OSAS believers are like the passangers on the Titanic. Living in a false sinse of security, believing themselves to be unsinkable until you die to find Jesus telling you depart from me, you who practice sinfulness.


Ah, but in my analogy the passengers were already off the titanic cause it had already sunk. That is the state of all people before Christ comes into the picture. So let me ask another question. Do you believe it is possible to live a sinless life? Why do you think such is possible, what makes it thus? Secondly, what happens if you sin at all after you believe? Do you believe that if you don't repent right away and something happens and you die that the record is closed and you can lose your salvation?

I don't believe it is possible to live a sinless life. Look at Job, the man in the end did indeed sin, and had to admit it before God. The more you deny that sin is a possibility the more likely that you will be caught unaware when it happens, in my opinion.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:16 PM
Where does the Bible say future sins are already forgiven?Good question fruitful, as I have already shown that Bible does say that, it is a false teaching of the OSASers.

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 04:21 PM
faithfulfriend...

Having a proper understanding of our identity in Christ greatly depends on how we view God's forgiveness toward us. If we see ourselves as un-forgiven or not worthy of forgiveness, it perverts our understanding of God's love. In a world where forgiveness has to be earned or paid for; complete and unconditional forgiveness is sometimes difficult to understand. However; the Scriptures tell us that this is the way God has forgiven us.

When Christ died on the cross, His last words were, "It is finished." In other words, "The payment for sin has been satisfied." All of the world's sins - past, present, and future were paid for. This is the freedom we have as children of God. As 2 Corinthians 5:19 says, God is no longer "counting men's sins against them."

Key Verse: Acts 10:43

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.



For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13,14).

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin (Hebrews lO:l7,~8).

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us (1 John 4:18,19).

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful (Hebrews 10:19-23).

Our understanding of God's forgiveness has a lot to do with how we treat other people. If we have never experienced God's love and forgiveness for ourselves, it is very hard to be loving and forgiving toward others.

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you (Ephesians 4:32).

Forgiveness is at the very root of our identity in Christ. His unconditional love for us that He demonstrated by dying on the cross is what gives us the power to draw near to God and to love others.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:26 PM
faithfulfriend...

Having a proper understanding of our identity in Christ greatly depends on how we view God's forgiveness toward us. If we see ourselves as un-forgiven or not worthy of forgiveness, it perverts our understanding of God's love. In a world where forgiveness has to be earned or paid for; complete and unconditional forgiveness is sometimes difficult to understand. However; the Scriptures tell us that this is the way God has forgiven us.

When Christ died on the cross, His last words were, "It is finished." In other words, "The payment for sin has been satisfied." All of the world's sins - past, present, and future were paid for. This is the freedom we have as children of God. As 2 Corinthians 5:19 says, God is no longer "counting men's sins against them."

Key Verse: Acts 10:43

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.#1 No one is worthy of forgiveness, that is why it is called grace.
#2 I know I am forgiving, however I also know if I chose to turn my back on that salvation God will allow it.

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 04:30 PM
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Who is he that overcometh?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:4,5)

He that overcometh is someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He is born of God.

But, what about keeping works unto the end?

Well, the Scripture doesn't say that the person who keeps Jesus' works to the end will be saved, it says He will give that person power over the nations.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:34 PM
So let me ask another question. Do you believe it is possible to live a sinless life? Why do you think such is possible, what makes it thus? Secondly, what happens if you sin at all after you believe? Do you believe that if you don't repent right away and something happens and you die that the record is closed and you can lose your salvation?

I don't believe it is possible to live a sinless life. Look at Job, the man in the end did indeed sin, and had to admit it before God. The more you deny that sin is a possibility the more likely that you will be caught unaware when it happens, in my opinion.I believe it is possible to live sinlessly, if we remain in the Spirit, but that is not the point the point is when we sin that we ask for forgiveness as God commands, and that we know that we can if we choose to turn from God. Maybe you should have read my above post #53 before you responded with this one.



Let me ask you this. Do you believe in free will or are you completely calvinistic?

If you do believe in free will, is it revoked after we come to Christ?

If our free will is not revoke when we come to Christ, doesn't that mean it is possible for us to turn away from our salvation, if we choose to?

If we can decide to turn from our salvation, wouldn't thast make OSAS a false teaching?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2070768#post2070768)
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Who is he that overcometh?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:4,5)

He that overcometh is someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He is born of God.

But, what about keeping works unto the end?

Well, the Scripture doesn't say that the person who keeps Jesus' works to the end will be saved, it says He will give that person power over the nations.Actually you ignored the other passage I gave it says clearly that we must endure until the end to be saved.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is it your intention to explain these verses away as well?

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 04:40 PM
Once we accept Christ's offer of salvation, we are no longer our own, we have been bought by Him:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." (1 Corinthians 6:20)

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." (1 Corinthians 7:23)

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 04:43 PM
I believe it is possible to live sinlessly

Talk about absurd and ridiculious! Guess that makes you equal to God, huh? This explains alot.

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 04:44 PM
Who is he that overcometh?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:4,5)

He that overcometh is someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. He is born of God.

But, what about keeping works unto the end?

Well, the Scripture doesn't say that the person who keeps Jesus' works to the end will be saved, it says He will give that person power over the nations.

[/b][/i]
Actually you ignored the other passage I gave it says clearly that we must endure until the end to be saved.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is it your intention to explain these verses away as well?

So, you agree with my assessment of Revelation 2:26?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:51 PM
I believe it is possible to live sinlessly
Talk about absurd and ridiculious! Guess that makes you equal to God, huh? This explains alot.Not only is it possible we are commanded to do so
Scripture that tells us to live sinless lives
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Rom 6:20-22
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:17-32
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[e] for we are members of one another.
26 “Be angry, and do not sin” do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

1st Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.

1st Peter 1:16 Because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

1st John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Do you really think God would command us to do what we cannot? What God has done is sent His own Spirit to live inside of us to help us and enable us to fulfill His requirements. With in ourselves we would not be able to live sinlessly, but because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we are.
Scriptures that say we are able to live sinlessly
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

1st Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil

Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless, Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy.


you can disagree with me all you want, but will you call God's word untrue? God not only tells us to be holy,pure,perfect, righteous, sinless, but He has enabled us through the infilling of His holy Spirit to do so.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:53 PM
So, you agree with my assessment of Revelation 2:26?No I do not, I believe all ''saved'' people will rule during the Millennium, not just the good ones. I simply noted that you ignored the other passages and was wondering if you were going to try and explain them away rather than accepting them also.

fuzzi
May 12th 2009, 04:55 PM
No I do not, I believe all ''saved'' people will rule during the Millennium, not just the good ones. I simply noted that you ignored the other passages and was wondering if you were going to try and explain them away rather than accepting them also.
Well, since you hadn't replied to my explanation of Rev. 2:26, I thought perhaps you were conceding that point. :)

Aside from what you "believe", what is your Scriptural basis for rejecting the explanation I gave regarding Rev. 2:26 and 1 John 5?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 04:59 PM
Well, since you hadn't replied to my explanation of Rev. 2:26, I thought perhaps you were conceding that point. :)

Aside from what you "believe", what is your Scriptural basis for rejecting the explanation I gave regarding Rev. 2:26 and 1 John 5?We overcome by enduring, holding on to our faith until the end, I have given scripture backing for that. Start with the ones I gave Matthew 10:22and Hebrews 3:14 and then we will go from there.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 05:25 PM
I believe it is possible to live sinlessly, if we remain in the Spirit, but that is not the point the point is when we sin that we ask for forgiveness as God commands, and that we know that we can if we choose to turn from God. Maybe you should have read my above post #53 before you responded with this one.


An interesting response, so you believe we can jump into and out of being in the Spirit? What then did Paul mean when he says if we are in Christ we are a new creation? Do we become uncreated, or recreated between old and new? I would agree that Jesus showed that it is remotely possible to live sinlessly if we walk with him, but the truth is it is very difficult to be completely sinless, hence why we have Christ as our faithful mediator. If we are not saved, then why would Christ mediate for us?

As for you remark about post #53, I was composing my post before yours hit the server, if you check the time stamps there is only 2 minutes between. As for the passage in Romans, the point here is that it is HIS righteousness accredited unto us that makes us saved, it is not how we live so much. Salvation is by grace through faith, not grace through faith, plus live sinlessly or at least repent and ask for forgiveness for all sins or Jesus will smite you and keep you out of his Kingdom. That is nothing more than the same works based salvation that the Catholics preach.


Look at this passage.



2 Co 5:12-21 (NKJV)

12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

....

He died that those who live, would live no longer for ourselves but for him. And this is so true, I don't live for myself, I live for what Christ would have me live for, does that mean its impossible to sin? No we are not perfected yet, we still have the flesh which tempts us, and we have not been given our new bodies yet.

...

Passage continues...
...

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:12-21 (NKJV)


Isn't that interesting, God was in Christ (or possibly through Christ), reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing our trespasses to ourselves. God is the one doing the reconciling for us, because christ became sin though he knew not sin that we might become the Righteousness of God in Him. It is in fact His righteousness applied to our account.




Let me ask you this. Do you believe in free will or are you completely calvinistic?

If you do believe in free will, is it revoked after we come to Christ?

If our free will is not revoke when we come to Christ, doesn't that mean it is possible for us to turn away from our salvation, if we choose to?

If we can decide to turn from our salvation, wouldn't thats make OSAS a false teaching?


I do believe in some measure of free will yes, but I'm probably not what you've been calling Free Grace, or even Armenian, and no I'm not calvinistic, although I was raised such, my beliefs are that the truth lies somewhere between those points.

As to your second question, this is a point I'm definitely willing to consider, whether man has the free will to reject Christ. I for one am so committed to Christ at this point in my life, I cannot imagine anyone ever having put their faith in him, true faith, and then turning from him, and here is the answer to your question. When we come to believe in Christ what happens? As that passage above in 2 Corinthians, we are created a new, we are given a new heart, and the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of us. I am not the same person I was before I attended that Snow Camp and put my trust in Christ. It isn't a matter of will, the grace of Christ has given me a new will, such that I do not desire to go back to the things that once held dominion over me.

It seems an entirely foreign concept that anyone who was walking with Christ, and had the true faith, could ever turn away from him to go back to the estate they were in before, it just is unthinkable to me. Now, hypothetically if such were possible, then I'd agree that would be the only thing a Believer, in theory, could do to lose salvation, however, if such is the case, then I'd have to invoke what is said in hebrews, that for such a person it would be impossible to renew them to repentance. (Meaning if you have free-will to turn back, you do not have the option to come back to Christ a second time.) But as I don't believe such is possible this matters not to me.

Ultimately here is my question, do we keep ourselves saved? Or are we set apart by the power of God once we believed?


[/b][/i]
Actually you ignored the other passage I gave it says clearly that we must endure until the end to be saved.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Is it your intention to explain these verses away as well?


The passage in matthew I'm not sure if it applies to post Resurrection faith. Christ was instructing them before sending them out to cities well before he was arrested, so I'm not entirely sure whether your use of endureth here applies to salvation, or whether what Christ is doing is encouraging them to stand firm at this time because they would in fact survive.


Btw Hebrews in that chapter says Moses was faithful, yet because of his one sin, he was prevented from entering the promised land. Would you then conclude that Moses was not saved, when Hebrews says he was faithful? As for that passage, there is another interpretation, that what the author of Hebrews was saying was that he knew that there were some who were "part of the brethren" who had a heart of unbelief.

As we know even our churches today, there may be people who claim Christ's name, claim to be Christians, but they may not truly be saved, they may not have the faith. One of my Campus Pastors in College has as part of his testimony that he had even been a Sunday School teacher, and one day was sitting in a pew and realized that up till that point he had not truly trusted Christ. It is easy to sit in a pew and believe and keep telling yourself you are a Christian, but there is one thing that distinguishes us as Christians from those who have fooled even themselves. We know what true faith is.



Not only is it possible we are commanded to do so
Scripture that tells us to live sinless lives
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Rom 6:20-22
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


you can disagree with me all you want, but will you call God's word untrue? God not only tells us to be holy,pure,perfect, righteous, sinless, but He has enabled us through the infilling of His holy Spirit to do so.

That verse in Matt 5:48

Mt 5:48 (NKJV)

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48 (NKJV)


The word for perfect here is Telios, the same word that James uses in his epistle, it can also mean Mature. Christ therefore is not saying that we need to be perfect, in fact the tense of this is that we shall be perfected, or matured as the Father is already thus perfect/mature. This is not that we of ourselves shall make ourselves perfect, but that one day we shall be.


Paul in romans 6 says they were set free from sin, and they have their fruit of holiness (which means set apart), and the resutl, the end is everlasting life. In that apssage in 2 Corinthians Paul is Exhorting them to be separate, and cling to the promise of adoption as sons and Daughters to god. he is not necessarily telling them to be sinless, but he is telling them to take a bath, turn away from the filthy things of the flesh, and what? to turn to God and thus be righteous. It is not a matter of whether there was sin, they turned their heart to god (see verse 9 of the chapter),

I pruned your post, because I can't respond to every scripture today. However, context is very important. Yes God calls us to be set a part, and as his children we should strive to do what's right. that doesn't mean we can't or won't sin, that is simply reality that it happens. The difference is unlike those who do not have Christ, we know that Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

Is it possible to live sinless? I think it is very hard to do so, and without the Holy Spirit within us it would be impossible, but I also believe the reality is that while God does expect us to walk in Christ's ways, that the requirement for salvation is faith, and has little to do with the walk.

If you have faith, you will walk accordingly, if you do not have faith, then eventually your walk will lead to the path of destruction.

(wow that was a long post :/)

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 06:02 PM
Watch has proved several times that he is not sinless. Well, guess he's one of us.

There is not a human alive that has lived sinlessly. No one is sinless except God!

faithfulfriend
May 12th 2009, 06:21 PM
Watch has proved several times that he is not sinless. Well, guess he's one of us.

There is not a human alive that has lived sinlessly. No one is sinless except God!

Christ's blood was shed so that man could live completely above [free from] committing sin.

It is possible, and it is happening to many saints that I know personally. Gods power is stronger than sin, and Gods power can give you as an individual power over your own fleshly desires.

Those who are still in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

We are commanded by the Word of God to live righteously, godly, and holy in this present world. Falling short of the commandments of Almighty God means an eternal separation from Him in the end.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 06:22 PM
Watch has proved several times that he is not sinless. Well, guess he's one of us.

There is not a human alive that has lived sinlessly. No one is sinless except God!
#1 I have never claimed to be sinless.
#2 I have done nor said nothing that would prove that I am not sinless.
#3 All have sinned that is why we need a Savior
#4 It is impossible to be sinless before are rebirth and infilling of the Holy Spirit.
#5 After we receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit we are endued with the power to remain sinless, but this power is not our own, it is through Christ who lives in us.
#6 Even though it is possible for a true Christian to remain sinless, it is not necessary, as long as we do not continue in chronic, unrepentant sin. What we need to do is repent. If we make a mistake and sin, we repent and God will for give us.
#7 Lastly if we do not repent believe we are eternally secure and continue in unrepentant, chronic sin then we will be judge for our sins like anyone else.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 06:29 PM
Christ's blood was shed so that man could live completely above [free from] committing sin.

It is possible, and it is happening to many saints that I know personally. Gods power is stronger than sin, and Gods power can give you as an individual power over your own fleshly desires.

Those who are still in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

We are commanded by the Word of God to live righteously, godly, and holy in this present world. Falling short of the commandments of Almighty God means an eternal separation from Him in the end.Amen it is the power of Christ that is in us that gives us the power over sin, not our own strength.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Some here claim that it is impossible for us not sin, but God says through Him all things are possible.

Romans 8
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


God is indeed able to keep us from sin, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness through the Spirit of Christ that lives in us.

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 06:33 PM
James writes, "For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). So, is James not saying here that a man can indeed be perfect? No, because only a few verses later, he comments, "But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison" (James 3:8).

There are two things about sinless perfection to be drawn from James’ comments. First off, James is stating that no man can tame even the tongue to the point of perfection, let alone his whole body. Advocates of sinless perfection are calling James a liar and are calling the Scripture a lie in this instance.

The second thing to note is that James is using the example of a man being perfect as a ridiculous impossibility in his writing. He is stating that all men stumble in their words, and he says anyone who claims otherwise is claiming something as ridiculous as personal sinless perfection. Advocates of sinless perfection actually believe the very thing that James cites as a ridiculous, impossible example.

Certainly we should strive to tame the tongue. We should do the best we possibly can in all areas of life. But it is unrealistic to expect perfection when the Bible itself plainly says such perfection is impossible.

Look carefully at the first part of James 3:2. It says, "For we all stumble in many things." The "we" here refers to Christians. James is identifying himself with "all" the Christians he writes to, stating directly that neither he, nor they, are perfect. "We all stumble in many things." Since advocates of sinless perfection do not believe they stumble in anything, they disassociate themselves from James—and they are therefore not a part of the Christian religion. James was inarguably a part of the Christian religion, but advocates of sinless perfection refuse to be included in James’ comments toward all Christians, including himself.

Advocates of Sinless Perfection Are Spiritually Dead.

People who think they are sinless are obviously experiencing no conviction for sin whatsoever. They believe themselves to be perfect in every way and incapable of sinning. Scripture has already demonstrated that people who do not believe they are sinning are mistaken. In fact, Scripture paints a bleak picture for anyone who is under the delusion that they are without sin.

1John 1:8 states simply, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." People who are oblivious to the fact that they still have sin do not have the Spirit of truth within them. There is no light shining to expose the darkness of their souls.

There is sin in everyone, but how can we explain that a subculture within Christendom, the "sinless perfection" crowd, feels no conviction for the sin they have whatsoever? It is easily explained. Hebrews 12:7-8 says, "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 06:43 PM
#1 I have never claimed to be sinless.
#2 I have done nor said nothing that would prove that I am not sinless.
#3 All have sinned that is why we need a Savior
#4 It is impossible to be sinless before are rebirth and infilling of the Holy Spirit.
#5 After we receive the infilling of the Holy Spirit we are endued with the power to remain sinless, but this power is not our own, it is through Christ who lives in us.
#6 Even though it is possible for a true Christian to remain sinless, it is not necessary, as long as we do not continue in chronic, unrepentant sin. What we need to do is repent. If we make a mistake and sin, we repent and God will for give us.
#7 Lastly if we do not repent believe we are eternally secure and continue in unrepentant, chronic sin then we will be judge for our sins like anyone else.

#1
if i were a sinner I would not be a christian
No need to waste time with the rest of your points since the first was a sin.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 07:40 PM
I know exactly where I stand. I have found the narrow gate, and am on the straight path and as long as I stay on it, enduring to the end I will receive eternal life.

Salvation is not a deception, the free grace/OSAS teaching is. Paul tells us that are past sins are forgiving when we accept Christ not our future ones, that is the deception that are furture asin are forgiving and that we need not to repent for our future sins.

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What (or who) is the 'narrow gate', and is the path different from the gate?

If remission of sins, are only our past sins, then what of any present of future sins?

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 07:50 PM
I have never heard anyone say that, but what we must do is walk in the Spirit who does enable us to live sinlessly, and if we get into the flesh make a mistake we repent of that sin and start anew. What we cannot do is continue in chronic, unrepentant sin and think that we are christians. That is not what scripture teaches us.

"What we cannot do is continue in chronic, unrepentant sin "

I don't know of any Christian, who would say any different, whether they be OSAS, POTS or NOSAS.

So what is your point?

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 07:53 PM
I would agree with you but most OSAS believers have no idea what it means to be a Christian. They think since they have said some prayer asking Jesus into their heart and or were baptized they are a christian, and that is it, they are now eternally secure. However that is not Jesus' description of a Christian. To Jesus a Christian is someone that will deny themaselve, take up their cross, and follow Jesus through the narrow gate, down the straight path that lead to righteousness, baring good fruit as we go. In Jesus' own word, few will find it or do so.

You are so full of misinformation, and false statements.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 07:59 PM
#1
No need to waste time with the rest of your points since the first was a sin.Committing a sin and being a sinner are two very different things. All Christians through out there walk may slip, repent and start anew, but a sinner remains in sin.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:01 PM
"What we cannot do is continue in chronic, unrepentant sin "

I don't know of any Christian, who would say any different, whether they be OSAS, POTS or NOSAS.

So what is your point?Google free grace, this is what the teachers of OSAS teach.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 08:04 PM
#1 No one is worthy of forgiveness, that is why it is called grace.
#2 I know I am forgiving, however I also know if I chose to turn my back on that salvation God will allow it.

Then you do not know my God.

Salvation comes only because it is God's will, and desire, that none should perish.

Salvation is being obedient to God's will.
We are either obedient to the gospel of grace through faith, or disobedient to the gospel.

Now, show us in scripture, that says, it is God's will and desire that some may choose to change their minds and to leave Him.

We are now no longer our own. We have been bought with a price, and our body and spirit now belong to Him.

How do you propose you purchase back, your body and spirit, and what price has God set?

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2070849#post2070849)
I would agree with you but most OSAS believers have no idea what it means to be a Christian. They think since they have said some prayer asking Jesus into their heart and or were baptized they are a christian, and that is it, they are now eternally secure. However that is not Jesus' description of a Christian. To Jesus a Christian is someone that will deny themaselve, take up their cross, and follow Jesus through the narrow gate, down the straight path that lead to righteousness, baring good fruit as we go. In Jesus' own word, few will find it or do so.

You are so full of misinformation, and false statements.Are you claiming this is not your belief. The OSAs has two trains of thought.
#1 The one I stated above.
#2 Those that continue in sin were never saved. Further more those that return to sin were never saved

Even though the 2nd is better than the, and in reality half right, both are incorrect. If someone never refrains from sin they were probably never saved, but if someone returns to sin they very may well of had a true conversion and fell away.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:08 PM
Then you do not know my God.You are right, I have no idea what god you serve. however my God is the God of the Bible. Who is yours?

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 08:10 PM
Committing a sin and being a sinner are two very different things. All Christians through out there walk may slip, repent and start anew, but a sinner remains in sin.


http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/jwcpt/animations/ROFL.gif


You are so full of it. If one commits a sin, therefore they are a sinner...

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/jwcpt/duh.png

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:12 PM
What (or who) is the 'narrow gate', and is the path different from the gate?

If remission of sins, are only our past sins, then what of any present of future sins?The narrow gate is Christ, the straight path is following Christ and His example of righteousness, and if we fall off the path through sin, we repent, get back on the path, and return to following Christ.

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 08:19 PM
[/i]
Are you claiming this is not your belief. The OSAs has two trains of thought.
#1 The one I stated above.
#2 Those that continue in sin were never saved. Further more those that return to sin were never saved

Even though the 2nd is better than the, and in reality half right, both are incorrect. If someone never refrains from sin they were probably never saved, but if someone returns to sin they very may well of had a true conversion and fell away.


You are confusing the one-time decisionism and easy believism crowd with OSAS. I've only recently become aware of the former, and the second one I've heard thrown around a lot too, but that alone does not necessarily mean OSAS. The calvinists mostly believe that God choose, predestined who would be saved, so in essence you don't really have a say as it was arranged before time began. I would consider that to be more of an Always Saved since rather than OSAS given how they teach, but they tend to say "perseverence of the saints". The Calvinist church I grew up in taught that the saints persevere not because they are saved, but because of Christ within them. That it was not something you could do in the flesh, but only if God was involved in preserving you.

Going back to my first line, There are some who say a one time decision, a one time asking is all it takes to be saved. However, I believe from studying Pauls Epistles, and James Epistle, that is contradicted. A true faith will manifest itself with fruit. Some may call them good works, but the point is the same. Confession alone does not save, it is belief in heart which saves.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:21 PM
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc251/jwcpt/animations/ROFL.gif


You are so full of it. If one commits a sin, therefore they are a sinner...




Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do
The intents of the heart is what separates me from a sinners, and who gave me my knew heart Christ.


Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Do you dare to call Christ a sinner? Because I am dead, and it is Christ that lives in me.
2nd Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You may very well be a sinner, I do not know, but I am the righteousness of God through Christ.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 08:23 PM
I believe it is possible to live sinlessly, if we remain in the Spirit, but that is not the point the point is when we sin that we ask for forgiveness as God commands, and that we know that we can if we choose to turn from God. Maybe you should have read my above post #53 before you responded with this one.



Let me ask you this. Do you believe in free will or are you completely calvinistic?

If you do believe in free will, is it revoked after we come to Christ?

If our free will is not revoke when we come to Christ, doesn't that mean it is possible for us to turn away from our salvation, if we choose to?

If we can decide to turn from our salvation, wouldn't thast make OSAS a false teaching?

"If you do believe in free will, is it revoked after we come to Christ?"

Yes.

Mans will (volition) is mans sovereignty. We do according to our will.
God's will is God's sovereignty, and God does according to His will.

We surrender our sovereignty, to His Sovereignty.

When we enter the Kingdom of God, He is King.
There are not two or more Kings on the Throne, there is but One King.

The King does not obey our will (for then we would be king). We obey the King.

If Jesus Christ is not your King and Lord, then He cannot be your Saviour.

Watchmen
May 12th 2009, 08:24 PM
You are confusing the one-time decisionism and easy believism crowd with OSAS. I've only recently become aware of the former, and the second one I've heard thrown around a lot too, but that alone does not necessarily mean OSAS. The calvinists mostly believe that God choose, predestined who would be saved, so in essence you don't really have a say as it was arranged before time began. I would consider that to be more of an Always Saved since rather than OSAS given how they teach, but they tend to say "perseverence of the saints". The Calvinist church I grew up in taught that the saints persevere not because they are saved, but because of Christ within them. That it was not something you could do in the flesh, but only if God was involved in preserving you.

Going back to my first line, There are some who say a one time decision, a one time asking is all it takes to be saved. However, I believe from studying Pauls Epistles, and James Epistle, that is contradicted. A true faith will manifest itself with fruit. Some may call them good works, but the point is the same. Confession alone does not save, it is belief in heart which saves.John Calvin was a deceiver and from the looks of it he did a good job of deceiving many within the church.

My heart's Desire
May 12th 2009, 08:33 PM
The only argument I've ever heard from Nosas is that Osas allows people to walk in sin.
(as I'm sure that the Nosas always hear "salvation is work based".)
Is there a middle ground? Is the middle ground correct?

Veretax
May 12th 2009, 08:35 PM
John Calvin was a deceiver and from the looks of it he did a good job of deceiving many within the church.

I will say it again in Case I was not clear. I am not Calvinist. At one time that's what I accepted as true, but when I began to read the bible for myself, and seek what the scriptures said, I had to discard several misinterpretations of scripture (as I was thus reading them anyways). Characterizing me as Calvinist would be a mistake, but I say again I'm not Armenian either.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 08:46 PM
No I do not, I believe all ''saved'' people will rule during the Millennium, not just the good ones. I simply noted that you ignored the other passages and was wondering if you were going to try and explain them away rather than accepting them also.

So, are there 'saved people' who are not good ones?

Since new birth is not about us, but Christ in us.

JWayne
May 12th 2009, 09:04 PM
and if we fall off the path through sin
Wow, a sinner...go figure!

There is no man that sinneth not. 1 Kings 8:46
There is no man which sinneth not. 2 Chronicles 6:36
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin. Proverbs 20:9
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecclesiastes 7:20
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:10

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 10:13 PM
The narrow gate is Christ, the straight path is following Christ and His example of righteousness, and if we fall off the path through sin, we repent, get back on the path, and return to following Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Gate.

Jesus Christ is the Way, and the Truth and the Life.

Partaker of Christ
May 12th 2009, 10:43 PM
[/i]
Are you claiming this is not your belief. The OSAs has two trains of thought.
#1 The one I stated above.
#2 Those that continue in sin were never saved. Further more those that return to sin were never saved

Even though the 2nd is better than the, and in reality half right, both are incorrect. If someone never refrains from sin they were probably never saved, but if someone returns to sin they very may well of had a true conversion and fell away.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Christianity is not evidenced simply by someone's claims. The evidence is that we love Jesus Christ.

If we love the Lord, then nothing will separate us from the love of God, and all things will work together for good.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 01:08 AM
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Christianity is not evidenced simply by someone's claims. The evidence is that we love Jesus Christ.

If we love the Lord, then nothing will separate us from the love of God, and all things will work together for good.O.K. I agree with this, but it in no way supports OSAS.

Partaker of Christ
May 13th 2009, 01:06 PM
O.K. I agree with this, but it in no way supports OSAS.

Hi Watchmen

I don't understand how you can agree with it, and say it does not support OSAS?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If God is our Father, then we are foreordained to be conformed [molded, fashioned, shaped] to the image [likeness] of His Son.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice: Who or what shall separate US, from the love of God?.

Surely absolutely nothing can separate God, from us, but:
It does not say who or what can separate God from us, but who or what can separate us from the love of God.

CommanderRobey
May 13th 2009, 05:34 PM
If once saved, always saved is not true, then the Lord Jesus Christ that we serve is a liar and His promise is not to be trusted.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly Jesus said His sheep (the saved) will never perish. If they can lose their salvation, they will perish. His sheep hear Him and they follow Him. Those who fall away, may have been disciples (followers) of Jesus, but were not His sheep or no doubt they would have continued following Him.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 05:45 PM
If once saved, always saved is not true, then the Lord Jesus Christ that we serve is a liar and His promise is not to be trusted.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly Jesus said His sheep (the saved) will never perish. If they can lose their salvation, they will perish. His sheep hear Him and they follow Him. Those who fall away, may have been disciples (followers) of Jesus, but were not His sheep or no doubt they would have continued following Him.If OSAS IS true the Jesus is a liar. He said we must bare good fruit and stay on the straight path to inherit eternal life.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The people who Jesus told to depart, honestly believed they were saved yet the practiced sin, therefore were banished. The foolish man that fell was also at one point a Christian, but did not keep the teachings of Christ therefore He fell.


If OSAS IS true then Jesus is a liar.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 05:48 PM
If once saved, always saved is not true, then the Lord Jesus Christ that we serve is a liar and His promise is not to be trusted.

John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Clearly Jesus said His sheep (the saved) will never perish. If they can lose their salvation, they will perish. His sheep hear Him and they follow Him. Those who fall away, may have been disciples (followers) of Jesus, but were not His sheep or no doubt they would have continued following Him.That right those that hear His for will receive eternal life. Many people get saved and the ignore Christ's voice, they will fall just like the foolish man that built his house upon the sand.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 05:51 PM
Please - can we all stop saying Jesus is a liar? Our views may be off but that does not make Jesus a liar.

As far as the scripture posted above, I would ask that you read it closely:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus would not say that to someone who had claimed Him as a Savior and Lord, would He? That He NEVER knew them?

Thank you -
V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 06:06 PM
Please - can we all stop saying Jesus is a liar? Our views may be off but that does not make Jesus a liar.

As far as the scripture posted above, I would ask that you read it closely:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus would not say that to someone who had claimed Him as a Savior and Lord, would He? That He NEVER knew them?

Thank you -
VIt is very possible that they were never saved however they though they were, and there are many references to believers being able to fall away through out scripture. So I would ask you to stop calling God a liar, by insisting that we cannot turn from Him.

CommanderRobey
May 13th 2009, 06:10 PM
If OSAS IS true the Jesus is a liar. He said we must bare good fruit and stay on the straight path to inherit eternal life.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The people who Jesus told to depart, honestly believed they were saved yet the practiced sin, therefore were banished. The foolish man that fell was also at one point a Christian, but did not keep the teachings of Christ therefore He fell.


If OSAS IS true then Jesus is a liar. You are using a passage that states that Christ 'never knew them' as proof that one can lose one's salvation? Never knew them means just what it says... He never knew them. They may have claimed to be saved, they may have done many works in His name, but they were not saved.

John, in his first epistle further points out that once saved always saved is a reality.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

'If they had been of us, they would no doubt continued with us'

There is no doubt in my mind that those who are of Christ will remain in Christ.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 06:14 PM
It is very possible that they were never saved however they though they were, and there are many references to believers being able to fall away through out scripture. So I would ask you to stop calling God a liar, by insisting that we cannot turn from Him.
I'm sure Hebrews 6 is one of your proof scriptures for that. Again, I would ask that you read it CLOSELY, please:
7 - For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 - but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.



I am not calling God a liar. You may disagree with me and that's fine - believe as you will - but please know that I have read scripture, I have asked for understanding, and this is where I find myself. I may be wrong - if so, I trust God will show me if I need to know. If not, He'll tell me when I get home.



V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 06:15 PM
You are using a passage that states that Christ 'never knew them' as proof that one can lose one's salvation? Never knew them means just what it says... He never knew them. They may have claimed to be saved, they may have done many works in His name, but they were not saved.

John, in his first epistle further points out that once saved always saved is a reality.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

'If they had been of us, they would no doubt continued with us'

There is no doubt in my mind that those who are of Christ will remain in Christ.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.




Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.



Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


These passage clearly show us that we are able to fall away and or get cut off after salvation for you to deny this truth is to deny God's word.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 06:19 PM
I'm sure Hebrews 6 is one of your proof scriptures for that. Again, I would ask that you read it CLOSELY, please:One of many, there are too many to ignore, unless you simply refuse to see. Not only does it say we can fall away, but that we are worse off if we do than if we had never been saved in the first place.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is a straight forward, very harsh word. To those that have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus' death yet continue to willfully commit sin, they will receive the harshest judgment of all. The judgment coming against them will be worse than anyone who has never accepted Jesus at all. Let's section this passage out into two verse sections so we can see exactly what it is actually saying.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
In the Old Testament the priest would go once a year to sacrifice a sacrifice for their own sins and the sins of the people. But now Jesus has given Himself once and for all for the sins of the whole world. Jesus' sacrifice does not just cover our sin; He erases it. So if we continue to sin unrepentantly after we accept his sacrifice, then our profession of faith is mute and our new sins remain. Jesus taught in Luke 24:47 that we not just apolgize of our sin, but that we should repent which includes ''remission'' or refraining from sin.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus said we should teach repentance and remissions of sins, not just forgiveness of them. If we do not teach that we need to depart from sin after salvation, then we are not teaching the gospel that Christ taught. Also if we as individuals do not depart from sin after salvation, we are no longer looking towards the resurrection of the just, but the fiery indignation that will devour the enemies of God.
Hebrews 10:28-29
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
WOW! It says he that despised Moses' law died without mercy, how much sorer punishment should you be thought worthy of, who trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing, and have done so despite the Spirit of grace. Who is it that despised or broke Moses' law? All of us we all have sinned.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
So who are those that have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing? All those that have accept Jesus as Savior but refuse to make Him Lord. All those that have asked for God forgiveness through the blood of Christ, yet continue to sin, refusing to conform to God's word. If you have been saved, if you have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, yet you continue to commit sin, disregarding the God that has saved you. Then you have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing. And worse of all they have done this despite the Spirit of grace, they disregard God Himself as well as His grace given us all to empower us to overcome sin. They remain in sin and still claim Christianity. God says they deserve a much sorer punishment than those that broke Moses' law. Once again all have broke Moses' law, but only those that have once been saved qualify for this much sorer punishment because they know the truth and still refuse to walk in it.
2nd Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse from the than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
You are better off never being saved than after your salvation turning from your faith, and/ or continuing in sin, after making a confession of faith. Those that continue to sin after being saved are no longer breaking Moses' law. They are now stomping on Christ Himself and counting His blood of the new covenant by which they were cleansed an unholy thing and they do this despite the Spirit of grace. It is like spitting in God's face. Not only do they deserve a much more sorer punishment but they will indeed receive it unless they repent and remiss from their sins.
Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God will judge His people. God is not only all loving, forgiving, and merciful. Although He is all loving, forgiving, and merciful, He is also a God of vengeance, justice, and judgment. God deserves more than just our love, honor, and praise, but our fear, reverence, and respect also. Those of you that have been taught OSAS have lost your reverential fear of God, so you live your life not fearing God's judgment, you feel you have no need to repent nor remiss from your sins. Therefore on the day of judgment Jesus will tell you, "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of iniquity." Start fearing God now and repent for your sin and turn from your evil ways and God will forgive you, and embrace you as His dear child. If you refuse to repent God will judge you for the works you have done.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 06:22 PM
Never mind, Watchman -

Peace to you.
V

sheina maidle
May 13th 2009, 06:22 PM
It is a man made doctrine introduced into the Church by Martin Luther. Although he may not have originated it, he is the one who popularized it. It does not appear in Church history prior to about 1500 A.D.
Sorry, Butch, but OSAS is NOT a man made doctrine...and it wasn't popularized by Martin Luther. The Lutheran Church does not teach OSAS.

Want to try again?

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 06:34 PM
Sorry, Butch, but OSAS is NOT a man made doctrine...and it wasn't popularized by Martin Luther. The Lutheran Church does not teach OSAS.

Want to try again?You are right and wrong. you are wrong in believing that OSAS is not a man made doctrine it is a man made doctrine created by Augustine of Hippo and popularized by John Calvin. It is completely unbiblical, created to keep people in a false state of security, instead of truly serving God.

Veretax
May 13th 2009, 06:40 PM
See here's my problem with the vine/branch analogy.

The bible says all things were crated by Him, and For him (that is to say Christ), yet not all of his Creation is now Good and fruitful.... Since all things come from Christ who created us, we all in essence begin with him. Those that bear fruit are those that are alive and represent those who possess salvation. Those that bear no fruit, are the dead or as you might say unrepentant ones.

CommanderRobey
May 13th 2009, 06:40 PM
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

You are confusing reconciliation with salvation. Until you realize that they are not the same, you will not understand that the reconciliation is proved if one remains. This passage speaks nothing of Salvation.

As to Hebrews, tell me Watchman... have you sinned since you professed Salvation? If so, according to your interpretation of this passage, you have no way whatsoever of being accepted of God. Hebrews says there is only a certain looking for of fiery indignation. As a matter of fact, this would mean that not one of us alive today would be part of God's eternal kingdom, for we all have sinned willfully at one time or another since our profession of faith.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 06:45 PM
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

You are confusing reconciliation with salvation. Until you realize that they are not the same, you will not understand that the reconciliation is proved if one remains. This passage speaks nothing of Salvation.

As to Hebrews, tell me Watchman... have you sinned since you professed Salvation? If so, according to your interpretation of this passage, you have no way whatsoever of being accepted of God. Hebrews says there is only a certain looking for of fiery indignation. As a matter of fact, this would mean that not one of us alive today would be part of God's eternal kingdom, for we all have sinned willfully at one time or another since our profession of faith.I think you need to reread this passage it says nothing about sinning, it is talking about being moved away from the faith, as in turning away from your salvation. ''We will be reconciled to God unblameable if we do not turn away''. That is what this passage in Collosians says showing we can indeed turn away, therefore disproving OSAS.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 06:56 PM
Once again - read the passage:
Colossians 1
21 - And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 - yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23 - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.



How does one become holy and blameless?


What is the "hope" of the gospel?

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:04 PM
Once again - read the passage:
Colossians 1
21 - And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 - yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23 - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.



How does one become holy and blameless?


What is the "hope" of the gospel?





The text itself tells us how to become holy, and blameless, by continuing in the faith, and by not being moved away from our hope. The hope of the gospel is the return of Christ, our resurrection into immortal bodies, and eternal life with Christ.


However as my above post shows Collosian 1:23 shows we can discontinue our faith and be moved away from our hope. This passage alone, not to mention all the others, disproves OSAS.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:05 PM
We don't become holy and blameless - He MAKES us holy and blameless by His atonement.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:07 PM
We don't become holy and blameless - He MAKES us holy and blameless by His atonement.IF we continue in the faith and are not moved away from our hope.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:15 PM
What is the faith?
What is the hope?

It's ALL about Christ and not one whit or iota about "me". If it IS about me, I'm in deep, deep trouble. I die daily that Christ might live.
V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:21 PM
What is the faith?
What is the hope?

It's ALL about Christ and not one whit or iota about "me". If it IS about me, I'm in deep, deep trouble. I die daily that Christ might live.
VThere is no question that none of us can keep ourselves saved that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but that does not negate that we can turn away, and the teaching of OSAS is false.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:23 PM
There is no question that none of us can keep ourselves saved that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but that does not negate that we can turn away, and the teaching of OSAS is false.
Then you are saying that Christ cannot keep that which is His? That if one strays He will not go find him or her?

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:26 PM
Then you are saying that Christ cannot keep that which is His? That if one strays He will not go find him or her?All things are possible for God, but we have free will God will not force us to do anything we are not willing to do. If we choose to turn from our faith He will allow it.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:30 PM
All things are possible for God, but we have free will God will not force us to do anything we are not willing to do. If we choose to turn from our faith He will allow it.
Just like the Prodigal Son blew his inheritance and went out into the world and ended up sleeping with the pigs. He finally realized he would be better off as a servant in his father's house than he would be staying where he was. What happened when he went home? His father RAN to greet him.

Was he ever NOT his father's son? Ever? Or was it just that he didn't benefit from his father's largese and love?
V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:32 PM
Just like the Prodigal Son blew his inheritance and went out into the world and ended up sleeping with the pigs. He finally realized he would be better off as a servant in his father's house than he would be staying where he was. What happened when he went home? His father RAN to greet him.

Was he ever NOT his father's son? Ever? Or was it just that he didn't benefit from his father's largese and love?
VBut if he had not returned, he would have died outside of that relationship.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:34 PM
But if he had not returned, he would have died outside of that relationship.
he was STILL the father's son - the relationship stays true because of family, not proximity.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:38 PM
he was STILL the father's son - the relationship stays true because of family, not proximity.I have given many, many scripture that says that if we turn from our faith we will not inherit the kingdom, if you refuse to see the truth, there is nothing I can do for you. M<y hope can only be
#1 That you false belief in OSAS does not cause you to remain in unrepentant sin
#2 That you teaching OSAS to someone else does not cause them to remain in unrepentant sin, for if so their blood will be on your hands.

JWayne
May 13th 2009, 07:43 PM
Watch, you have proven absolutely nothing! All you have proven is that closed mindedness is high on your list of priorities.

Remember to check your own eye, before looking into another's.

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:44 PM
I have given many, many scripture that says that if we turn from our faith we will not inherit the kingdom, if you refuse to see the truth, there is nothing I can do for you. M<y hope can only be
#1 That you false belief in OSAS does not cause you to remain in unrepentant sin
#2 That you teaching OSAS to someone else does not cause them to remain in unrepentant sin, for if so their blood will be on your hands.
Thanks for that Watchman -

Grace and peace to you -
V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:47 PM
I have given many, many scripture that says that if we turn from our faith we will not inherit the kingdom, if you refuse to see the truth, there is nothing I can do for you. M<y hope can only be
#1 That you false belief in OSAS does not cause you to remain in unrepentant sin
#2 That you teaching OSAS to someone else does not cause them to remain in unrepentant sin, for if so their blood will be on your hands.


Thanks for that Watchman -

Grace and peace to you -
VSeriously, you will be in my prayers.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:48 PM
Watch, you have proven absolutely nothing! .Of course I haven't, who can show anything to a blind man?

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:49 PM
Seriously, you will be in my prayers.
You might be surprised at how that prayer is answered. ;)

V

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:49 PM
Remember to check your own eye, before looking into another's.I will indeed allow the truth of scripture and the empowering of the Holy Spirit keep me from unrepentant sin. :thumbsup:

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 07:51 PM
You might be surprised at how that prayer is answered. ;)

VMy prayer is that you see the truth before anyone else is deceived. :pray:

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 07:53 PM
My prayer is that you see the truth before anyone else is deceived. :pray:
My prayer for you will be the same. Deal?

On second thought, that isn't what I will pray for - I will pray that the truth be revealed to BOTH of us. That way no one is "right" except God. Is THAT a deal?
V

grit
May 13th 2009, 08:00 PM
:pray: I'm happy to see so much prayer in the thread. :yes:

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 08:08 PM
My prayer for you will be the same. Deal?

On second thought, that isn't what I will pray for - I will pray that the truth be revealed to BOTH of us. That way no one is "right" except God. Is THAT a deal?
VIf you are right and I am wrong, I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life. If, however, I am right and you are wrong, thousands (possibly including you) will come to the knowledge of these truths only as they arrive in eternity and to their horror discover they are forever condemned to Hell. Therefore I will leave you these questions.

Ask yourself:

1. Is this life, your pet theology, or your favorite sin worth your soul?
2. Would you not give up everything for a chance to spend eternity with God?
3. The great day of judgment will indeed come one day. are you ready today, to stand before God and give an account?

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 08:15 PM
What do you know about me? I'm not justifying sin, never have. You need to rethink your position, my friend.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 08:19 PM
What do you know about me? I'm not justifying sin, never have. You need to rethink your position, my friend.I never said you did, however many that falsely believe in OSAS do see it as a justification for sin, and they continue in it unaware that they will one day face God on Judgment day to be sent away to outer darkness.

JWayne
May 13th 2009, 08:25 PM
I have not seen one person that disgrees with watchman, in the slightest, say they justify sin, no where. Not one person. What I have seen is watchman call himself Jesus, and tell me that I am calling Jesus a sinner when I say he is a sinner.

What is it that the bible warns us of...beware of those who claim to be the Christ.

grit
May 13th 2009, 08:26 PM
It's also worth noting the rather glaring difference in definition of OSAS that thread participants are using, and how this illogic of misinformation in communication is being used contrary to the Scriptures posted to demonize a position not held by an opposing side of what otherwise might be a profitable debate.

:pray: Keep those prayers a-goin', family. :hug:

Vhayes
May 13th 2009, 08:28 PM
I never said you did, however many that falsely believe in OSAS do see it as a justification for sin, and they continue in it unaware that they will one day face God on Judgment day to be sent away to outer darkness.
Watchman, I'll be very serious here. I have seen people who thought they could justify their sin because all was forgiven. I talked to them until I was blue in the face. They were my friends and I loved them.

God started discipling them one by one in small way. The discipline increased. Most recognized it for what it was and came to a new appreciation for their relationship with their Father. One did not - he was very hedonistic. God took him out - he died because he literally preached that he could do anything he wanted because he was forgiven. I believe God took him home before he could cause irreparable harm to some of his brothers and sisters.

God is faithful to His promises even of we are not. He promised eternal life in the Son. That's what I hang on to. It IS all about Him and what He has done.

I appreciate your zeal. The reason I started participating in this thread was to show you that those of us who believe in eternal security do so because that's what we have been shown using the same scripture you use. I asked and will ask again that you not accuse those of us who believe in eternal security of calling God a liar. That's insulting and gets all of us nowhere.

Thank you for the polite discussion -
V

Partaker of Christ
May 13th 2009, 08:58 PM
If OSAS IS true the Jesus is a liar. He said we must bare good fruit and stay on the straight path to inherit eternal life.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The people who Jesus told to depart, honestly believed they were saved yet the practiced sin, therefore were banished. The foolish man that fell was also at one point a Christian, but did not keep the teachings of Christ therefore He fell.


If OSAS IS true then Jesus is a liar.

Jesus is speaking of false prophets, who are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

When they met the Lord, they made boast of their 'good' works.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power of God.

Jesus also says that you cannot have good fruit from a bad tree, but you shall know them by their fruit (not their works)

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 09:05 PM
Watchman, I'll be very serious here. I have seen people who thought they could justify their sin because all was forgiven. I talked to them until I was blue in the face. They were my friends and I loved them.

God started discipling them one by one in small way. The discipline increased. Most recognized it for what it was and came to a new appreciation for their relationship with their Father. One did not - he was very hedonistic. God took him out - he died because he literally preached that he could do anything he wanted because he was forgiven. I believe God took him home before he could cause irreparable harm to some of his brothers and sisters.

God is faithful to His promises even of we are not. He promised eternal life in the Son. That's what I hang on to. It IS all about Him and what He has done.

I appreciate your zeal. The reason I started participating in this thread was to show you that those of us who believe in eternal security do so because that's what we have been shown using the same scripture you use. I asked and will ask again that you not accuse those of us who believe in eternal security of calling God a liar. That's insulting and gets all of us nowhere.

Thank you for the polite discussion -
VI appreciate this post and understand your point, but the New Covenant is a two party conditional agreement, and just as God does not force us to come into this agreement via predestination, neither will He force us to remain in it once we have entered in, via OSAS. However I do agree God is faithful to keep His part of the agreement.

I understand your stance and this is mine, I think we have exhausted this conversation and must simply agree to disagree.

God Bless you in all you do, Vhayes.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 09:08 PM
I have not seen one person that disgrees with watchman, in the slightest, say they justify sin, no where. Not one person. What I have seen is watchman call himself Jesus, and tell me that I am calling Jesus a sinner when I say he is a sinner.

What is it that the bible warns us of...beware of those who claim to be the Christ.Sorry forgivenwretch, but you are in the wrong forum.

CommanderRobey
May 13th 2009, 09:11 PM
I never said you did, however many that falsely believe in OSAS do see it as a justification for sin, and they continue in it unaware that they will one day face God on Judgment day to be sent away to outer darkness.

Paul found himself sinning constantly even after he was saved.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And yet, he never lost his Salvation. He kept the faith, he finished the course.

One is not sinlessly perfect upon Salvation and will not be sinlessly perfect as long as on is in the weak flesh.

You may want to rethink your theology, Watchman

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 09:17 PM
Paul found himself sinning constantly even after he was saved.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And yet, he never lost his Salvation. He kept the faith, he finished the course.

One is not sinlessly perfect upon Salvation and will not be sinlessly perfect as long as on is in the weak flesh.

You may want to rethink your theology, WatchmanSorry but as usual you missed the whole point of Paul's dissertation of Romans 7-8. It was not to justify sin, nor to say we were incapable of not sinning, but that we need to walk in the Spirit rather than our flesh because in our own ability we cannot help from sinning. However through the Spirit if wee walk in the Spirit we are in fact capable of keeping God's commandments.


It is you that needs to rethink their theology.

Partaker of Christ
May 13th 2009, 09:37 PM
All things are possible for God, but we have free will God will not force us to do anything we are not willing to do. If we choose to turn from our faith He will allow it.

I am afraid you make your will to be your god.
Who is Lord? Watchmen or God?

Jesus Christ is BOTH Saviour AND Lord.
If you receive Christ as Saviour, then you receive Him as Lord.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ, is not some optional extra. If He is not Lord of your life, then He is not Saviour of your life. You receive fully Jesus Christ as He is (the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Light, the Saviour and the Lord), or you don't receive Him at all.

Do you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ IS Lord?
Is He Lord, or are you lord?

This means you (your sovereign free will) is no longer lord. You are no longer your own, for you have been bought with a price. Your body and spirit now belong to God.
You are no longer your own, means that you once were your own, but no longer are.
You are now under new ownership and under new management.

Throughout the scripture, it speaks of how man has to obey God's will, because God is God.
I find nothing in the scripture that say's God has to do mans will. If God were to do your will, then you would be His god.

You are never saved because of your own will, but because of His will. It is His will that you are saved, and you surrender your will, to do His will and obey the gospel of grace through faith.

Partaker of Christ
May 13th 2009, 09:53 PM
IF we continue in the faith and are not moved away from our hope.

Paul says 'if YOU' continue in the faith.
Why didn't he say 'If WE' continue in the faith?

Because Paul had show fruit, and the Colossians (and many of the other Churches) were still young in the Lord. There was no fruit evidence, that they had truly receive the word and understood it.

You don't just put a seed in the ground, and immediately bare fruit. The seed needs good ground, and then it can take root. Then when it is grounded and rooted, it will grow and eventually bare fruit.

Until we see the fruit, we don't know what seed it is (wheat or tare), and if it has taken any root.

You shall know them by their fruit. So until there is visible fruit as evidence, we should not be presumptuous.

Partaker of Christ
May 13th 2009, 10:17 PM
If you are right and I am wrong, I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life. If, however, I am right and you are wrong, thousands (possibly including you) will come to the knowledge of these truths only as they arrive in eternity and to their horror discover they are forever condemned to Hell.

"I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life"

That again is wrong. To think that your view does no harm.

For over 40 years in the Lord, I stood on the same view as you hold. The yoke I carried was often to much to bare. I was striving in my own strength to keep my salvation. Yes I bore some fruit, but also many thistles and thorns.

I have seen many damaged Christians, who were taught the same error. There witness to others is hindered. Never sure if they will yet be saved, how could they proclaim salvation to others?

Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joel 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 10:24 PM
"I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life"

That again is wrong. To think that your view does no harm.
My view is the truth of scripture, your is not only unbiblical but indeed does do people harm.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 10:28 PM
Paul says 'if YOU' continue in the faith.
Why didn't he say 'If WE' continue in the faith?
He wrote you because Paul was not including himself, he was writing to the Colossians. Regardless if whether or not Paul said we including himself or you referring to others outside of himself. He still stated that we will only be reconciled to God holy, and unblameable IF we do not turn from our faith and loose our hope. Proving it is possible and disproving OSAS.

Watchmen
May 13th 2009, 10:30 PM
I am afraid you make your will to be your god.
Who is Lord? Watchmen or God?
I unlike you serve to only true God, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, The God of the Bible.

The real question is who do you serve?

Veretax
May 13th 2009, 10:31 PM
My view is the truth of scripture, your is not only unbi9blical but indeed does do people harm.


Watchman, I think you are treading on thin ice here. You beleive your view of scripture is the truth, but as we attest to some disagree with your view. I'd urge everyone to be cautious as this thread is coming close to being a tit for tat kind of thing, and that is certainly not edifying to the body of Christ.

Tomlane
May 13th 2009, 11:07 PM
Watchman you are giving a lot of view with no scripture to back you up. I would suggest if you want to prove these believers wrong such as Vertax and partaker of Christ you need to prove yourself with scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Tomlane :hmm:

Butch5
May 13th 2009, 11:15 PM
Jesus is speaking of false prophets, who are ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

When they met the Lord, they made boast of their 'good' works.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power of God.

Jesus also says that you cannot have good fruit from a bad tree, but you shall know them by their fruit (not their works)


What do you think their fruits are????????????

Butch5
May 13th 2009, 11:17 PM
Paul found himself sinning constantly even after he was saved.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

And yet, he never lost his Salvation. He kept the faith, he finished the course.

One is not sinlessly perfect upon Salvation and will not be sinlessly perfect as long as on is in the weak flesh.

You may want to rethink your theology, Watchman


Why then did Jesus say go and sin no more?

Butch5
May 13th 2009, 11:21 PM
I am afraid you make your will to be your god.
Who is Lord? Watchmen or God?

Jesus Christ is BOTH Saviour AND Lord.
If you receive Christ as Saviour, then you receive Him as Lord.

The Lordship of Jesus Christ, is not some optional extra. If He is not Lord of your life, then He is not Saviour of your life. You receive fully Jesus Christ as He is (the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Light, the Saviour and the Lord), or you don't receive Him at all.

Do you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ IS Lord?
Is He Lord, or are you lord?

This means you (your sovereign free will) is no longer lord. You are no longer your own, for you have been bought with a price. Your body and spirit now belong to God.
You are no longer your own, means that you once were your own, but no longer are.
You are now under new ownership and under new management.

Throughout the scripture, it speaks of how man has to obey God's will, because God is God.
I find nothing in the scripture that say's God has to do mans will. If God were to do your will, then you would be His god.

You are never saved because of your own will, but because of His will. It is His will that you are saved, and you surrender your will, to do His will and obey the gospel of grace through faith.


Can I asssume that you no longer sin? Since Christ is Lord, do you never do you own will, but always do His? If your answer is no, then Watchman has made his point.

Butch5
May 13th 2009, 11:23 PM
Paul says 'if YOU' continue in the faith.
Why didn't he say 'If WE' continue in the faith?

Because Paul had show fruit, and the Colossians (and many of the other Churches) were still young in the Lord. There was no fruit evidence, that they had truly receive the word and understood it.

You don't just put a seed in the ground, and immediately bare fruit. The seed needs good ground, and then it can take root. Then when it is grounded and rooted, it will grow and eventually bare fruit.

Until we see the fruit, we don't know what seed it is (wheat or tare), and if it has taken any root.

You shall know them by their fruit. So until there is visible fruit as evidence, we should not be presumptuous.


Where is your Scriptural support, for your statement that there was no fruit?

Also, does the one planting not know what he has planted?

JWayne
May 14th 2009, 12:11 AM
No there both the same and so is what you false preach. Amazing how I told you way back that we needed to agree to disagree, and move on but you were so dead set on
further making things worse.

JWayne
May 14th 2009, 12:15 AM
Watchman, I think you are treading on thin ice here. You beleive your view of scripture is the truth, but as we attest to some disagree with your view. I'd urge everyone to be cautious as this thread is coming close to being a tit for tat kind of thing, and that is certainly not edifying to the body of Christ.

I truly believe that watchman revels in causing discord. And for one who claims that he is not a sinner and is Jesus, there is something seriously wrong. I think maybe that would be blasphmeous heracy.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 12:18 AM
Can I asssume that you no longer sin? Since Christ is Lord, do you never do you own will, but always do His? If your answer is no, then Watchman has made his point.

Do you ever have the Lords permission to sin?

Does the Lord say "thou shalt not", or does the Lord say 'hey Butch, it is your free will choice, and I will not force my will upon you'?

Tell us Butch, Who is Lord of your life?

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 12:25 AM
Do you ever have the Lords permission to sin?

Does the Lord say "thou shalt not", or does the Lord say 'hey Butch, it is your free will choice, and I will not force my will upon you'?

Tell us Butch, Who is Lord of your life?

You didn't answer the question, do you sin??? IF you do, then you disobey the Lord. The one who turns away disobeys the Lord. If you can sin when Christ is your Lord, so can the one who turns away.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 12:36 AM
Where is your Scriptural support, for your statement that there was no fruit?


Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


Also, does the one planting not know what he has planted?

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

Walstib
May 14th 2009, 12:39 AM
Not quite the 12th page but I thought I would get head start and start taking requests for the intermission. :)

That and if we are to go on with this thread it would be great to concentrate on the topics instead of each other. Maybe get a bit more in depth than whats found in starting new questions every two posts.

No more posts with heart judging intent. Please.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 12:46 AM
You didn't answer the question, do you sin??? IF you do, then you disobey the Lord. The one who turns away disobeys the Lord. If you can sin when Christ is your Lord, so can the one who turns away.

Yes there are times that I sin, but I don't have the Lord's permission to sin. If I do sin then I confess that sin to the Lord, and He then forgives.

Why would I confess my sin to Him, if I was still lord of my life?

Now, back to my questions to you:

Do you ever have the Lords permission to sin?

Does the Lord say "thou shalt not", or does the Lord say 'hey Butch, it is your free will choice, and I will not force my will upon you'?

Tell us Butch, Who is Lord of your life?

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 01:59 AM
Watchman you are giving a lot of view with no scripture to back you up. I would suggest if you want to prove these believers wrong such as Vertax and partaker of Christ you need to prove yourself with scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Tomlane :hmm:You must not have read through this thread I have given no less than 15 passages of scripture. How much scripture is needed to prove the truth?

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:01 AM
You must not have read through this thread I have given no less than 15 passages of scripture. How much scripture is needed to prove the truth?
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:01 AM
I truly believe that watchman revels in causing discord. And for one who claims that he is not a sinner and is Jesus, there is something seriously wrong. I think maybe that would be blasphmeous heracy.My goal is to open the eyes of the blind. It seems to me by the fact that you are the one slinging insults that it is you and not I that is attempting to sow discord. :idea:

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:03 AM
"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" (1 Peter 3:15)I am ready. What is it you would like to know?

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:05 AM
"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:08 AM
"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:09 AM
I am ready. What is it you would like to know?
Let's see...


Watchman you are giving a lot of view with no scripture to back you up. I would suggest if you want to prove these believers wrong such as Vertax and partaker of Christ you need to prove yourself with scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
And you replied:


You must not have read through this thread I have given no less than 15 passages of scripture. How much scripture is needed to prove the truth?

The answer is, as much as it takes.

When you discount a response that contains Scripture, but offer no Scripture yourself, then it suggests that your position isn't Scriptural.

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:14 AM
So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?
I see. The Lord opened my eyes, and I cannot thank Him enough:

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed...

And He'll never leave or forsake me, I am His and He is mine, for all eternity.

To who else could I go? My Lord and Saviour has the words of eternal life.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:14 AM
Let's see...


And you replied:



The answer is, as much as it takes.

When you discount a response that contains Scripture, but offer no Scripture yourself, then it suggests that your position isn't Scriptural.
I didn't discount the qquestion because of its scripture, I discounted (if you even want to call it that) because the basis of the question was false. Tom claimed i had given information without scripture, when if he would have read through the thread he would have seen that I had given more than an ample amount of scripture. Does Tom need more or do you, then I will be happy to provide it, but to claim none was given is simply false.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:16 AM
"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)


So fuzzi, are you blind or do you see?


I see. The Lord opened my eyes, and I cannot thank Him enough:So since you claim to see does that mean your sin remains, and if not what is the point of you referencing John 9:39-41?

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 02:38 AM
I didn't discount the qquestion because of its scripture, I discounted (if you even want to call it that) because the basis of the question was false. Tom claimed i had given information without scripture, when if he would have read through the thread he would have seen that I had given more than an ample amount of scripture. Does Tom need more or do you, then I will be happy to provide it, but to claim none was given is simply false.
I have read this entire thread, and I have seen example over and over again of others giving you Scripture, and you responding without using any Scripture, to back up your position.

If I took the time to quote all the Scripture you posted, and responded, explaining why I thought you were mistaken, you would probably do the same as you've done with others here: disagree without using God's word to back up your beliefs.

When you don't use God's word, when you don't back up your beliefs with Scripture, it shows that you probably are basing your beliefs on your opinion, on that which seems right to you.

And that's not edifying.


So since you claim to see does that mean your sin remains, and if not what is the point of you referencing John 9:39-41?
You asked me if I was blind or did I see. Since I have "Yes, I am a Christian" on each of my posts, I think it would be self-evident that I consider myself to be one of Christ's, one of God's children. As it has been stated here, don't try to judge the condition of others' hearts. Only God knows for sure.


"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." (John 9:39-41)
The Pharisees took offense at Jesus implying that they were blind. Why did He imply they were blind? Probably because they refused to accept that which was right in front of their eyes, the miracles, the signs that Jesus was the Messiah. The Pharisees claimed to be righteous, and they were, outwardly, but not inwardly.

They did that which looked good, but didn't do that which was pleasing to God.

It just seemed like an appropriate Scripture to post. :)

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:46 AM
I have read this entire thread, and I have seen example over and over again of others giving you Scripture, and you responding without using any Scripture, to back up your position.
O.K. here ya go.
Matthew 13:3
3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold a sower went out to sow.
4 And when He had sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them:
5 Some fell upon the stony places where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 and when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some feel among thorns; and thorns spring up, and choked them:
8 But others fell on good ground and brought forth fruit, some a hundred fold, some sixty fold, and some thirty fold.
18 Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in their heart. This is he that received the seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed in the stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and anon with joy receives it;
21 Yet he has no root in himself, but dureth for a while; for when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word he is offended.
22 He also that receives seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word of he becomes unfruitful.
23 But he that received the seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some a hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty.
Here we see 4 groups of people; 1 group rejects the word, 3 groups accept the word yet 2/3 of them turned from their salvation and only 1 group of the 3 groups that accepted the word actually hold fast to their salvation producing fruits. Luke 8:13 puts it like this.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while they believe, and in a time of temptation they fall away.
A quarter reject the word, half fall away, and only a quarter keep the word. So not only can we fall away but in this particular parable most do.



The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.




Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.
A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.



Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.


There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.
These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.



Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5
Revelation 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;
2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.
Revelation 3:1-5
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
Let look at this passage one verse at a time,
Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.
Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.
Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.
Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.
Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.


Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.
Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:47 AM
Need more scripture? O.K.

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 02:48 AM
Partaker---Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;


Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


How do any of these prove there was no fruit from the Galatians? Do you know what Paul is referencing here?



Partaker---Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;


What does this have to do with the question? When a farmer plants crops does he know what he has planted? Does he just ramdomly cast seed without any knowledge of what it is?

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:49 AM
Scriptures that show that no sinner shall inherit God's Kingdom

Romans 1:29-32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin.



1st Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven.



Colossians 3:24-25
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally.



Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,
2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them.



Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.

All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:49 AM
More?........ O.K.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:56 AM
Scriptures that show no confessing Christian that continues in sin shall not inherit God's Kingdom

I've heard it said somewhere that the main cause of atheism are Christians. Christians that claim Christ with their lip but deny Him with their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world finds so unbelievable. Most of you would agree that atheism in America is dangerous. What I find much more dangerous than atheist is the modern day lukewarm American so called Christian professing Christ in word but denying Him in deed being abominable, disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate; Titus 1:16. When a person claims Christianity and goes to church every Sunday but lives in sin, in open rebellion against God and His word. That is far more sinister than the hard core atheist shaking his fist toward the sky cursing the God they claim not to believe in. Not only does it bring shame to the name of Jesus every time one of the sinners claim Him as their Savior, but it is a slap in the face to every true Christian honestly trying their best to live a life pleasing to God.


Let's see what the bible teaches about those that claim Christ name yet continue in sin.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that say unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name did many wonderful works?
23 And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are the words of Jesus Himself. He declares there will be people that claim him as Lord, yet he will profess to them, "I never knew you, you who work iniquity" (or make it a practice of committing sin). We can debate if these people were ever actually saved or if they are what some call ''false converts'', but this we do know. These people truly and whole heartedly believed themselves to be saved. Matter of fact I believe they were more than just church members, but leaders. As they claim to have prophesied, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in the name of Jesus. So the question is not whether these spoken of here were backsliders or false converts, but that not all that claim Christianity are Christians. Not all that seem to us to be the most holy are really Christians. Not all that believe Jesus is Lord are truly saved. Not even everyone that honestly believes they are truly saved is on their way to Heaven. But only those that do the will of the Father which is in Heaven. Jesus also said that the way to righteousness is narrow and few will find it.
Matthew 7 13:14
13 Enter ye into the straight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be there be which go thereat.
14 Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.
My question to you would be: Is there unrepentant sin in your life? Do you obey the will of God or your own flesh? When you meet Jesus on judgment day will He say, well done good and faithful servant or depart from me I never knew you, to those who practice sin?



Romans 6:15-16
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 know you not ,that whom you yield yourselves servant to obey, his servant you are whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?
Short but not so sweet. You that live in sin are servants of sin and not of God. Jesus said in Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13 that you cannot serve two masters.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters, for either they will hate one and love the other, or else they will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Luke 16:13 No man can serve two masters, for either they will hate one and love the other, or else they will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
You cannot serve God and money, nor can you serve God and sin, nor can you serve God and self. Choose you this day who you will serve: money, sin, self, or God?



1st Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote to you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must ye needs to go out of this world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man be called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not you judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judges. Therefore put away from among you that wicked person.
Paul had instructed the church in Corinth to separate themselves from sinners, but they were allowing sin into the church. They were judging those that were outside of the church as sinners, yet ignoring the sin that was taking place in the church. So Paul had to revise his instructions. That they should not company with those that sin in the church either. Sin is sin whether you go to church and claim Christianity or not. Notice he referred to the offender as ''that wicked person'' although they went to church and claimed to be a brother.



Galatians 5:13-25
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, thou shalt love your neighbor as yourself.
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to another: so that you cannot do the things you would.
18 But if you be led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.
25 If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit.
We see here that Paul tells us in verse 13 not to use our liberty for an occasion to fulfill our fleshly desire.
Verse 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Paul also tells us we are not under the law ''of sin'' if we are led by the Spirit and not by our flesh.
Verse 18 But if you be led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Paul then tells us what the fruits of the flesh are and that we will not go to heaven, if we allow ourselves fulfill our flesh rather than being led by the Spirit.
Verse 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But if we are led by the Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit, then we will not be judged.
Verse 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Paul then goes on to declare in verse 24, that if we truly are in Christ, then we would have crucified the flesh. With all its lusts and desires.
24 And they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.
Finally he states that if we say we live in the Spirit, we should indeed walk in the Spirit, and not be ruled by our flesh.
25 If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit.
So it is clear that our liberty does not give us permission to sin. If we use our liberty to sin, then we are no longer free but once again in bondage to our flesh and will not make it to heaven.



Philippians 3:17-19
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them that walk so as ye us have for an example.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often ,and now tell you even weeping ,that they are enemies of the cross.
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is their shame, who mind earthly things).
Paul shares his heart with us here. We see he instructs us to make examples out of those that walk upright and honestly being obedient to God. For there are many that walk (that is people in the church claiming Christianity) that are enemies of the cross. What made them enemies of the cross? Because they were overtly evil? No, because they minded earthly things. How many in the church today put earthly things above God? The state of the first century church in Macedonia broke Paul's heart just as the state of today's church in America breaks mine. The watered down Eternal Security, Hyper Grace gospel taught in our churches today, may grow attendance, but it does not make true converts. Those that teach such things as well as them that accept and practice it are enemies of the cross. Not the defenders of the true faith, God has called the church to be.



Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in works they do deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
People who support the teachings of Eternal Security, OSAS, and or Hyper Grace say that as long as we have confessed Christ as our Savior, we will not be judged for our sin. But Paul says that there were some that profess they know God but in work, through their disobedience to God's word, they do deny Him. Jesus said in Matthew 10:33 whoever denies Me, I will deny him before My Father.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him I will also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
So whether by our confession or our actions if we deny Christ, He will deny us. Living a lifestyle of sin is denying him regardless of our confessions of faith.




Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is a straight forward, very harsh word. To those that have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus' death yet continue to willfully commit sin, they will receive the harshest judgment of all. The judgment coming against them will be worse than anyone who has never accepted Jesus at all. Let's section this passage out into two verse sections so we can see exactly what it is actually saying.
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
In the Old Testament the priest would go once a year to sacrifice a sacrifice for their own sins and the sins of the people. But now Jesus has given Himself once and for all for the sins of the whole world. Jesus' sacrifice does not just cover our sin; He erases it. So if we continue to sin unrepentantly after we accept his sacrifice, then our profession of faith is mute and our new sins remain. Jesus taught in Luke 24:47 that we not just apolgize of our sin, but that we should repent which includes ''remission'' or refraining from sin.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Jesus said we should teach repentance and remissions of sins, not just forgiveness of them. If we do not teach that we need to depart from sin after salvation, then we are not teaching the gospel that Christ taught. Also if we as individuals do not depart from sin after salvation, we are no longer looking towards the resurrection of the just, but the fiery indignation that will devour the enemies of God.
Hebrews 10:28-29
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden underfoot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace?
WOW! It says he that despised Moses' law died without mercy, how much sorer punishment should you be thought worthy of, who trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing, and have done so despite the Spirit of grace. Who is it that despised or broke Moses' law? All of us we all have sinned.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
So who are those that have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing? All those that have accept Jesus as Savior but refuse to make Him Lord. All those that have asked for God forgiveness through the blood of Christ, yet continue to sin, refusing to conform to God's word. If you have been saved, if you have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, yet you continue to commit sin, disregarding the God that has saved you. Then you have trodden under the foot the Son of God, and have counted the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified an unholy thing. And worse of all they have done this despite the Spirit of grace, they disregard God Himself as well as His grace given us all to empower us to overcome sin. They remain in sin and still claim Christianity. God says they deserve a much sorer punishment than those that broke Moses' law. Once again all have broke Moses' law, but only those that have once been saved qualify for this much sorer punishment because they know the truth and still refuse to walk in it.
2nd Peter 2:20-21
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse from the than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
You are better off never being saved than after your salvation turning from your faith, and/ or continuing in sin, after making a confession of faith. Those that continue to sin after being saved are no longer breaking Moses' law. They are now stomping on Christ Himself and counting His blood of the new covenant by which they were cleansed an unholy thing and they do this despite the Spirit of grace. It is like spitting in God's face. Not only do they deserve a much more sorer punishment but they will indeed receive it unless they repent and remiss from their sins.
Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again I shall judge my people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God will judge His people. God is not only all loving, forgiving, and merciful. Although He is all loving, forgiving, and merciful, He is also a God of vengeance, justice, and judgment. God deserves more than just our love, honor, and praise, but our fear, reverence, and respect also. Those of you that have been taught OSAS have lost your reverential fear of God, so you live your life not fearing God's judgment, you feel you have no need to repent nor remiss from your sins. Therefore on the day of judgment Jesus will tell you, "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of iniquity." Start fearing God now and repent for your sin and turn from your evil ways and God will forgive you, and embrace you as His dear child. If you refuse to repent God will judge you for the works you have done.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 02:57 AM
Partaker---Yes there are times that I sin, but I don't have the Lord's permission to sin. If I do sin then I confess that sin to the Lord, and He then forgives.

Why would I confess my sin to Him, if I was still lord of my life?


OK then, Watchman's point has been made. His case proven.


Partaker---Now, back to my questions to you:

Do you ever have the Lords permission to sin?

Does the Lord say "thou shalt not", or does the Lord say 'hey Butch, it is your free will choice, and I will not force my will upon you'?

Tell us Butch, Who is Lord of your life?

Christ is my Lord, however, as I sit here I can choose to sin, if I do, He will not stop me. He calls us to be obedient, if we were not able to disobey then we would not be able to be obedient.


Hebrews 5:8-9 ( KJV )
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


John 15:10 ( KJV )
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

If we don't keep his commands, we won't remain in His love. Again, if we are not able to disobey then we are not able to be obedient.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:57 AM
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, now you not that friendship with the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.
You cannot have it both ways. You cannot ride the fence; you cannot claim Christianity and then live like the world, loving the world and the things of it. James says those that claim Christianity and continue to ''date'' the devil are adulterers and adulteresses. If you are a friend of the world you are an enemy of God, no two ways about it
1st Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lords table, and of the table of devils.
You see, you cannot live in hibitual unrepentant sin and still be saved. But it is up to us, we must first submit to God then resist the devil .We must draw near to God then he will draw near to us. We must cleanse our hands, purify our hearts, humble ourselves before God then He will lift us up.
James 4: 7, 8, and 10
7 Submit yourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee.
8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and he shall lift you up.
You see it is up to us to live righteously or not. The good part is that God gave us His Spirit and grace to empower us to be able to achieve all these things, but He will not do for us what He has commanded us to do ourselves, with His assistance. So we can achieve victory over sin, and God will exalt us, but if we continue to flirt with Satan, loving the things of this world more than we want to serve God, he will count you as His enemy.





1st John 1:6 and 2:4
1st John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not know the truth.
1st John 2:4 He that says, I know Him, and keeps not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We know who is truly following Christ, not by the confessions they make but the fruit they produce. Anyone that says they follow Christ but produce evil fruit is lying either to others or themselves, usually both.
James 1:22 Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Deceiving yourself into believing you're going to Heaven won't get you there. Only living your life holy in the sight of God will.



Revelation 3:15-17
15 I know thy works, that thou are neither cold nor hot, I would that you were cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold not hot, I will spue you out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and know not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
Jesus would rather we hate Him than be lukewarm. No one living out their life planning to ease into heaven because God is good, not totally committed to God, but believe that because they have at one time said the sinners prayer and or were baptized, they are shoe ins, is going to make it. Eternal life is reserved for those that are red hot for Christ. Willing to give it all at any cost for him. Unless you are going to Heaven with guns blazing, you're not going at all. No one living a lukewarm existence will make it, unless they repent and are set ablaze. Eternal Security promoters may disagree with me, but that is the clear teaching of scripture. Jesus would rather we curse Him to his face, than show up to church every Sunday, never truly committing our lives to Him. Claiming His name then making a spectacle of it through our lifestyles. Most church goers in America are just like those in Laodicea ''lukewarm'' believing themselves to be spiritually rich in need of nothing. Knowing not that they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. Jesus will puke them up come Judgment day unless they repent. Sadly it is much easier to convince someone who knows their lost of their need for a Savior than it is to convince someone that believes themselves to be saved that they are really lost. So here is a litmus test, if your Christianity is mediocre at best, if God is anything but first in your life, if you are not red hot for Jesus, then you are lost and need to repent, be set on fire for God and depart from all sin.
For those of you that still believe once you get saved you will always be saved no matter what you do, think, or say; and that you can not lose, forfeit, or walk away from you salvation. I have one more scripture for you to read.
Galatians 6:7-8
7 Be not deceived God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh, shall of the flesh reap corruption: but he that soweth of the Spirit, shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
God will not be mocked your empty, mute professions of faith, will not move Him.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 02:58 AM
If you need more let me know ;)

Vhayes
May 14th 2009, 03:06 AM
May I ask a really dumb question? Instead of telling us eternal security is wrong why not tell us how to live lives pleasing to our Father? Maybe there would be something edifying that we can all agree on instead of the constant tearing down.

How 'bout it. How does one lead a life pleasing to God? Anyone?
V

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:11 AM
May I ask a really dumb question? Instead of telling us eternal security is wrong why not tell us how to live lives pleasing to our Father? Maybe there would be something edifying that we can all agree on instead of the constant tearing down.

How 'bout it. How does one lead a life pleasing to God? Anyone?
VAgreed
Fruits that should be shown by true Christians

Lead by the Spirit.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Separate from sinners, whether the sinners are in the world or the church.
a. The world.
2nd Corinthians 2:17 Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, sayeth the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you.
b. The church.
2nd Thessalonians 3:6, and 14-15
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks disorderly, and not after the traditions which he received from us.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.

Faithful
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Fearless.
2nd Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and love, and of a sound mind.

Righteous
1st John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Purity
1st John 3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purify himself, even as He is pure.

Holiness
1st Peter 1:16 Because it is written, be you holy as I am Holy.

Zealous in good works
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous in good works.

Rendering not evil for evil
Romans 12:17 Recompense no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
1st Thessalonians 5:23 See that none render evil for evil to any man ,but ever follow that which is good both among yourselves and to all men.

Overcoming evil with good.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Resisting all temptation.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive a crown of life, the Lord has promised to all them that love him.

Honest.
2nd Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Blameless
Philippians 2:14-15
14 Do all things without murmurings, and disputings.
15 That you may be blameless, the sons of God without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine like lights in the world.

Loving
Matthew 22:37-39,John 13:35,1st John 4:20
Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus said unto them, Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind
38 This is the first commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself
John 13:35 By this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you love one another.
1st John 4:20 If a man say he loves God and loveth not his brother he is a liar, for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen.

Jesus is returning for a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, holy without blemish, not a church that has soiled itself through the lust and cares of this life.
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present to himself a glorious church, not having sport or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy without blemish.

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 03:15 AM
May I ask a really dumb question? Instead of telling us eternal security is wrong why not tell us how to live lives pleasing to our Father? Maybe there would be something edifying that we can all agree on instead of the constant tearing down.

How 'bout it. How does one lead a life pleasing to God? Anyone?
V


Sure, follow Christ's commands. Live according to Matthew 5-7.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:19 AM
Sure, follow Christ's commands. Live according to Matthew 5-7.Shorter than my answer but certainly is a good one :)


P.S. They said they wanted lots of scripture so I gave it to them. Yet they will still deny what the Word teaches.

Butch5
May 14th 2009, 03:23 AM
Shorter than my answer but certainly is a good one :)


P.S. They said they wanted lots of scripture so I gave it to them. Yet they will still deny what the Word teaches.

I don't think it would change if Jesus posted it.

CommanderRobey
May 14th 2009, 04:09 AM
Jesus said His sheep would never perish. That is proof enough that we cannot lose our Salvation for me.

He said that the one that believes has eternal life abiding in him.

He said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Doesn't sound like they lose their Salvation to me.

I choose to believe the Word of the Lord rather than one who preaches a life of fear of losing Salvation. Christ holds my Salvation in His hands, I cannot lose it for it is eternally secure.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Walstib
May 14th 2009, 11:28 AM
OK... I guess we are doing a bit better. :)

Purge the rest of the personal remarks out of this and we will have a nice civil thread on this topic.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 11:51 AM
OUCH! This thread already gone into hot water so quick! :eek: Since I went to work at 10 pm last night, it was about page 10, now it is page 13.

Watchman made many good points by show many verses or passages from scriptures to prove salvation is conditional.

Myself used believed in OSAS for many years till in 2002, I left OSAS. Because, when I read and study Matthew chapter 25 about second coming relates with end times. Somehow, Matt. 25:14-30 talking about three servants with their talents. Verse 24-30 bothered me the mostly. This passage talk about a servant with one talent, but he hides it from his master. When his master comes, and ask servant, where is his talent? Servant was ashamed and saying to him. Then, master says to him, "You wicked and slothful(lazy) servant!" Then, master sends lazy servant away into everlasting fire(vs. 30).

The passage of Matt. 25:14-30 does not support OSAS teraching.

Suppose, if a servant have one talent, servant did indeed use talent for his master, that means, doing the duty to servae the Lord, no matter how small task, it is. When his master comes, and a servant did indeed show his one talent that he did it. Then, a servant might have eternal life with Christ.

Matt. 25:14-30 is an illustration for the Judgment Seat of Christ, that we as servants, all shall face before Christ sits on throne, and He will judge our works.

Matt. 25:24-30 show me this is very strong words that salvation is conditional, and verse 30 easily prove us that OSAS is false, as it tells us that a lazy servant will cast away into everlasting fire, not just suffering "loss reward"(as many OSAS teachers teaching) only, but will send straight away into lake of fire right away after the Judgment Seat of Christ. Also, this is not purgatory. It shows clear of hell.

That why I rather follow Bible than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Veretax
May 14th 2009, 12:32 PM
Wow, I go to sleep on this thread and two more pages. One with Watchman replying with very short replies, and then spam posting as many scriptures as he can find. Do you honestly expect anyone to respond to every single one in a timely manner? I know that the post length of this forum is limited so that is quite impossible. Why don't you pick one or two of the verses you posted, and we can discuss those first, and then move onto others. That would be a lot more conducive to discussion. I think.

Does anyone disagree with me on that point?

faithfulfriend
May 14th 2009, 12:39 PM
Shorter than my answer but certainly is a good one :)


P.S. They said they wanted lots of scripture so I gave it to them. Yet they will still deny what the Word teaches.

Absolutely excellent scriptures and Holy [sinless] living is exactly what the Bible teaches. God will not tolerate anything less than holiness (Hebrews 12.14)

Those who will still disagree will do so because they are spiritually blind:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Sad to say, many profess to know God, but a mere profession does not prove a genuine experience with Him.

1 John 3:6 "...whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 12:48 PM
Shorter than my answer but certainly is a good one :)


P.S. They said they wanted lots of scripture so I gave it to them. Yet they will still deny what the Word teaches.

Lord Lord, didn't we give them lots of scriptures in your Name?


No, we don't deny what scripture teaches, we just deny the errors of your understanding them.

My prayer for both you (Watchmen) and Butch is this:

:pray:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 01:14 PM
OUCH! This thread already gone into hot water so quick! :eek: Since I went to work at 10 pm last night, it was about page 10, now it is page 13.

Watchman made many good points by show many verses or passages from scriptures to prove salvation is conditional.

Myself used believed in OSAS for many years till in 2002, I left OSAS. Because, when I read and study Matthew chapter 25 about second coming relates with end times. Somehow, Matt. 25:14-30 talking about three servants with their talents. Verse 24-30 bothered me the mostly. This passage talk about a servant with one talent, but he hides it from his master. When his master comes, and ask servant, where is his talent? Servant was ashamed and saying to him. Then, master says to him, "You wicked and slothful(lazy) servant!" Then, master sends lazy servant away into everlasting fire(vs. 30).

The passage of Matt. 25:14-30 does not support OSAS teraching.

Suppose, if a servant have one talent, servant did indeed use talent for his master, that means, doing the duty to servae the Lord, no matter how small task, it is. When his master comes, and a servant did indeed show his one talent that he did it. Then, a servant might have eternal life with Christ.

Matt. 25:14-30 is an illustration for the Judgment Seat of Christ, that we as servants, all shall face before Christ sits on throne, and He will judge our works.

Matt. 25:24-30 show me this is very strong words that salvation is conditional, and verse 30 easily prove us that OSAS is false, as it tells us that a lazy servant will cast away into everlasting fire, not just suffering "loss reward"(as many OSAS teachers teaching) only, but will send straight away into lake of fire right away after the Judgment Seat of Christ. Also, this is not purgatory. It shows clear of hell.

That why I rather follow Bible than what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Oh right, so you believe in salvation by works?

You think the loss and reward here is speaking of eternal life?

Does that then mean that the one who had 5 salvations, then recieved 5 more [10] salvations?

Let us also look at this unprofitable servant.

There are one or two on here, that preach this same Jesus:

Matt 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Matt 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. Matt 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

1) I knew thee that thou art an hard man
2) reaping where thou hast not sown
3) gathering where thou hast not strawed
4) I was afraid

Is this also your Jesus Christ?

Are you afriad of your Lord and Saviour?
Is your Lord and Saviour a hard man?
Does your Lord and Saviour reap where He has not sown?
Does your Lord and Saviour gather where He has not strawed?

Did this man know Jesus Christ?

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 01:29 PM
Wow, I go to sleep on this thread and two more pages. One with Watchman replying with very short replies, and then spam posting as many scriptures as he can find. Do you honestly expect anyone to respond to every single one in a timely manner? I know that the post length of this forum is limited so that is quite impossible. Why don't you pick one or two of the verses you posted, and we can discuss those first, and then move onto others. That would be a lot more conducive to discussion. I think.

Does anyone disagree with me on that point?

Hi Veretax!

If I (or another) quote something like:

"I will never leave you nor forsake you"

We don't get a discussion on what that verse means. What we get is a pile of some other scriptures that is used, in a dishonest attempt to make that quote a lie. Occasionally Butch will discuss that verse with his understanding of it.

Heb 13:5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 01:32 PM
Hello.

I would like to say something.

I do believe many who believe in OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians. Well also, I believe many who do not agree with OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians.

Myself as Baptist. I know many baptists who believe in unconditional eternal security doctrine, are godly people, and truly Christians, even saved too. Whilst, they do not being think of them being label as 'OSAS', because they do believe in eternal salvation, that they believe that we shall never lose salvation. They do hold eternal security doctrine, but not the reason that, they are truly Christians or saved, that they believing in this doctrine. The REASON is, many are OSAS, they do love the Lord, do serve the Lord, trying to holy life. I know many Baptists who believe in OSAS, but they are truly Christians, because of their fruits.

I know many who do not agree with OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians because of their fruits, and their faithful for the Lord.

But. I am telling you, many who do not hold OSAS doctrine, are not truly Christians, do not carry fruits, do not serve the Lord. Some do claim know lot of scriptures as while they don't agree with OSAS, but they are also hyprocrite faces, that means they hide their sins same time, serve two masters at same time. So, therefore, I am aware that many nonOSAS people will not make into heaven.

Also, I fear that, many people who believe in OSAS doctrine, thought they are already saved at once, because of what pastors or soul winners told them so. While they are remain in sinning life, and backslidding, they seem thought that they are already saved at once. For example- a soul winner would saying to a person, "You are already saved at once, because you already accepted Christ in your heart, no matter how often you sinning in your life, you still will go to heaven."

I feel that OSAS is a "easy believism" is a dangerous of evangelism to people in America. Because of lack on repentance, separation from the world.

And what's more damage to people who believe in OSAS is, pastors and bible college teachers carry greater responsible for teaching on OSAS to people, think OSAS is a truth doctrine. People might thought pastors telling the truth, so they trust in them. But, they deceived millions while they are in their sinning life while they still thought they are already saved.

And the mostly damage to people who believe in OSAS doc trine, that many OSAS pastors saying to them, "when we will stand face the judgement seat of Christ, anyone who not serve the Lord, backslidding, their works shall be burned, will suffer loss the reward, but NOT lose salvation. And anyone who shall loss reward, will not reign 1000 years with Christ on earth, will be punish somewhere in the ground place during millennial period, then when after millennium ends, then they will be restored again to be with the Lord again."

But, where did they get that teaching come from? That teaching is unbiblical.

That why, that teaching seems not scare people nothing at all.

Many peoiple would say, "What a COOOL!!! :cool: I am already saved at once, I am not worry about my salvation LONG as I still sinnning all my life, I still can go to heaven!"

OSAS is a deadly dangerous doctrine.

Sorry to say it. Forgive me.

Bible teaching us that, we ought to obey and endure with our faith till the dead at our death or Lord comes, then we will have eternal life according Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 01:37 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Hold your horse.

When I discuss on Matthew 25:14-30. I ask you,

Who are the "servant"??

Aren't we as the servant of the Lord?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Veretax
May 14th 2009, 01:42 PM
Hi Veretax!

If I (or another) quote something like:

"I will never leave you nor forsake you"

We don't get a discussion on what that verse means. What we get is a pile of some other scriptures that is used, in a dishonest attempt to make that quote a lie. Occasionally Butch will discuss that verse with his understanding of it.

Heb 13:5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."


Yes I understand what you are saying, but I think what some don't realize is that people like me, don't interpret each verse in a vaccuum, but with an understanding of a large volume of scripture. That is how I believe the bible should be interpreted.

My issue is coming back and finding 4-5 posts from Watchman with multiple verses in it. I hate to say it, but I don't live on this board, and can't reply to everything, seeing that much to reply to makes me not want to reply at all, because seeing that much at one time in multiple posts makes me feel like someone is trying to beat me up side the head with their view of scripture as if I am some kind of idiot when it comes to such things. I don't know if Watchman intended it that way, but on a forum like this, it is hard enough to discuss one or two or three points at one time in a thread let alone fifty different verses all at once. So, if watchman wants to slow the discussion down and discuss a small group of verses at a time, then I'll continue in the discussion, if not. I do not necessarily feel that it has been a waste, but I'll move onto another topic.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 01:50 PM
I feel like we have been hopping like rabbit by avoid answering the questions of verses, by make posts with different topic of verses off the track by trying to prove verses. We should stay on same track and have to answer their questions of verses as what they quoted them to us, we have to answer them first BEFORE we quote verses of conditional salvation ot prove them last. That is the polite way to do. I better review pages in this thread, and see what I can answer their questions of vereses what they quote. Then I will make posts and to answer their questions with verses later this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 02:21 PM
CommanderRobey,

You say that His heep who hear His voice and follow Him, that do not make sound to you that they lose their salvation.

You are partially correct. Understand, John 10:26-28 tell us of two important things that they can meet their salvation: 1. Hear 2. Follow.

Both are conditional that they must meet for their eternal life by hearing God's Word, obey God's Word, follow God's Word. While they hear and follow God's Word, Christ have the power to secure them in His hand LONG as they continue listen and follow Him same time. Or, otherwise, if they no longer continue listen and follow Him, Christ would loose them out of His hand.

Also, you quote of John 6:37.

Understand notice word, "cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Important owrd - "cometh to me" is a continue action verse, that mean a person is continue coming or follow Him so, therefore, Christ won't remove person away. Or, unless, if a person stop coming to Him, Christ have the right to remove person away according John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23; and Rev. 2:5; and Rev. 3:5.

Therefore, "cometh to me" is a conditional that we must meet in order to have eternal life is to follow Christ in our life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 02:25 PM
Hello.

I would like to say something.

I do believe many who believe in OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians. Well also, I believe many who do not agree with OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians.

Myself as Baptist. I know many baptists who believe in unconditional eternal security doctrine, are godly people, and truly Christians, even saved too. Whilst, they do not being think of them being label as 'OSAS', because they do believe in eternal salvation, that they believe that we shall never lose salvation. They do hold eternal security doctrine, but not the reason that, they are truly Christians or saved, that they believing in this doctrine. The REASON is, many are OSAS, they do love the Lord, do serve the Lord, trying to holy life. I know many Baptists who believe in OSAS, but they are truly Christians, because of their fruits.

I know many who do not agree with OSAS doctrine, are truly Christians because of their fruits, and their faithful for the Lord.

But. I am telling you, many who do not hold OSAS doctrine, are not truly Christians, do not carry fruits, do not serve the Lord. Some do claim know lot of scriptures as while they don't agree with OSAS, but they are also hyprocrite faces, that means they hide their sins same time, serve two masters at same time. So, therefore, I am aware that many nonOSAS people will not make into heaven.

Also, I fear that, many people who believe in OSAS doctrine, thought they are already saved at once, because of what pastors or soul winners told them so. While they are remain in sinning life, and backslidding, they seem thought that they are already saved at once. For example- a soul winner would saying to a person, "You are already saved at once, because you already accepted Christ in your heart, no matter how often you sinning in your life, you still will go to heaven."

I feel that OSAS is a "easy believism" is a dangerous of evangelism to people in America. Because of lack on repentance, separation from the world.

And what's more damage to people who believe in OSAS is, pastors and bible college teachers carry greater responsible for teaching on OSAS to people, think OSAS is a truth doctrine. People might thought pastors telling the truth, so they trust in them. But, they deceived millions while they are in their sinning life while they still thought they are already saved.

And the mostly damage to people who believe in OSAS doc trine, that many OSAS pastors saying to them, "when we will stand face the judgement seat of Christ, anyone who not serve the Lord, backslidding, their works shall be burned, will suffer loss the reward, but NOT lose salvation. And anyone who shall loss reward, will not reign 1000 years with Christ on earth, will be punish somewhere in the ground place during millennial period, then when after millennium ends, then they will be restored again to be with the Lord again."

But, where did they get that teaching come from? That teaching is unbiblical.

That why, that teaching seems not scare people nothing at all.

Many peoiple would say, "What a COOOL!!! :cool: I am already saved at once, I am not worry about my salvation LONG as I still sinnning all my life, I still can go to heaven!"

OSAS is a deadly dangerous doctrine.

Sorry to say it. Forgive me.

Bible teaching us that, we ought to obey and endure with our faith till the dead at our death or Lord comes, then we will have eternal life according Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi again DeafPosttrib!

"OSAS is a deadly dangerous doctrine"

Sorry, but OSAS is not a deadly dangerous doctrine.
The truth you know will set you free.

What is deadly dangerous is, easy believism.

What your (or our) issue here is 'what is evidence of salvation'

Until we see evidences (fruit) we know not is someone has received the word and understood it.

So, what should we see:

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

How does one who once loved darkness and hated the light, come to love the Lord?

He/she who has been forgiven much loves much. Those who have been forgiven little, love little.

This 'love' is not simply some soppy worldly feely (although our emotions are involved)

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Those that love Him, have and will keep His commandments.
Those that do not love Him, will not keep His sayings.

(this I believe is; His laws written in our hearts)
'Keeping' predominately means 'holds on to'. Yes there is a doing His word, but the main thing is that His words will abide in us.

So, if we love Him, His words (you have the words of eternal life) will remain in us.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1Jn 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 02:31 PM
Partaker of Christ,

True, Christ shall never forsake us of Heb. 13:5. Amen. Understand long as we do not love the root of evil money or worldly things in the first part of Heb. 13:5, therefore, Christ shall never forsake us. or, otherwise, if we love the root of evil, Christ would forsake us.

Christ warns us that we cannot serve two masters at same time- serve Lord, and serve the mammon at same time. God will not bless or use us. Also, Christ says, if we refuse leave father, or mother, or brother, or sister, or world, then person is not worth to him. That means person is NOT belong to Christ. Therefore, that eprson is not abide in Christ, same wise as Christ is not abide in person according John 15:6.

Many Christians did love the Lord at beginning, but later turn to world and love the world or money, then Christ is no longer abide in them.

That what Heb. 13:5 talks about. The first part of Heb. 13:5 telling us, our actions or manners should not thinking or attracting with world things of greedy. That means, we must not love the world.

If we love the world, then God is not in us. - 1 John 2:15. Make sense. If we world the world, so, therefore, Christ would be no longer remain abide in us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 02:34 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Hold your horse.

When I discuss on Matthew 25:14-30. I ask you,

Who are the "servant"??

Aren't we as the servant of the Lord?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Does a servant know His Masters business?

Is the Pope a servant of God. Is Barak Obama or any other in government, and authority, a servant of God?

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 02:37 PM
CommanderRobey,

You say that His heep who hear His voice and follow Him, that do not make sound to you that they lose their salvation.

You are partially correct. Understand, John 10:26-28 tell us of two important things that they can meet their salvation: 1. Hear 2. Follow.

Both are conditional that they must meet for their eternal life by hearing God's Word, obey God's Word, follow God's Word. While they hear and follow God's Word, Christ have the power to secure them in His hand LONG as they continue listen and follow Him same time. Or, otherwise, if they no longer continue listen and follow Him, Christ would loose them out of His hand.

Also, you quote of John 6:37.

Understand notice word, "cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Important owrd - "cometh to me" is a continue action verse, that mean a person is continue coming or follow Him so, therefore, Christ won't remove person away. Or, unless, if a person stop coming to Him, Christ have the right to remove person away according John 15:6; Romans 11:19-23; and Rev. 2:5; and Rev. 3:5.

Therefore, "cometh to me" is a conditional that we must meet in order to have eternal life is to follow Christ in our life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

But that is to do with initial salvation, not keeping.

No one can come to me, unless the Father draw them.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 02:39 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Amen. John 8:32 is a promise to us, that we can have the truth to make us free.

Bible is the answers of everything what we need.

I want to say something on 1 John 3:24.

Notice important words - "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him." 'Keepeth his commandmeents' is a conditional with obedience.

Many people claim, "I believe in Jesus', or, "I already saved". But, they did not serve the Lord. Therefore, Christ is not abide in them.

Christ says, if we love him, then we have to KEEP his commandments according John 14:15. Clearly, it is conditional.

In order to have eternal life, is to obey Christ.

Too many people who believe in OSAS, but do not serve the Lord, and do not obey the Lord. Therefore, most of them will not enter into eternal life at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 02:43 PM
Partaker of Christ,

True, Christ shall never forsake us of Heb. 13:5. Amen. Understand long as we do not love the root of evil money or worldly things in the first part of Heb. 13:5, therefore, Christ shall never forsake us. or, otherwise, if we love the root of evil, Christ would forsake us.

So the word 'never' is not never?

What the wrtter is saying is:
You don't have need of these things of the world, because He will never leave us, nor forsake us.

There is no 'IF'


Christ warns us that we cannot serve two masters at same time- serve Lord, and serve the mammon at same time. God will not bless or use us. Also, Christ says, if we refuse leave father, or mother, or brother, or sister, or world, then person is not worth to him. That means person is NOT belong to Christ. Therefore, that eprson is not abide in Christ, same wise as Christ is not abide in person according John 15:6.

Many Christians did love the Lord at beginning, but later turn to world and love the world or money, then Christ is no longer abide in them.

That what Heb. 13:5 talks about. The first part of Heb. 13:5 telling us, our actions or manners should not thinking or attracting with world things of greedy. That means, we must not love the world.

If we love the world, then God is not in us. - 1 John 2:15. Make sense. If we world the world, so, therefore, Christ would be no longer remain abide in us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

But now you have just denied the Lords words, when He says He that loves me 'will' keep my words.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 02:46 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Amen. John 8:32 is a promise to us, that we can have the truth to make us free.

Bible is the answers of everything what we need.

I want to say something on 1 John 3:24.

Notice important words - "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him." 'Keepeth his commandmeents' is a conditional with obedience.

Many people claim, "I believe in Jesus', or, "I already saved". But, they did not serve the Lord. Therefore, Christ is not abide in them.

Christ says, if we love him, then we have to KEEP his commandments according John 14:15. Clearly, it is conditional.

In order to have eternal life, is to obey Christ.

Too many people who believe in OSAS, but do not serve the Lord, and do not obey the Lord. Therefore, most of them will not enter into eternal life at the end.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

You are talking about easy believism again.
It is not according to peoples cliams, but by their 'fruit' you shall know them.

No, Jesus does not say that if we love Him, we will 'HAVE' to keep His cammandments.

He who loves me 'WILL' keep my commandments.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 02:47 PM
Partaker of Christ,

I ask you of Matthew 25:14-30.

Whose of Christ's speaking on Matt. 25:14-30 apply to?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 02:52 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Let's look in John 14:15 carefully:

"IF ye love me, KEEP my commandments."

Christ doesn't say, "will keep my commandments."

John 14:15 is very, very clear speaking of command to us, IF we love Him, KEEP his commandments.

Too many claim, "I love Jesus", but not doing serve the Lord, then, therefore, they do not obey Christ.

To have eternal life, is to obey Christ throughout our life till we die.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:10 PM
Wow, I go to sleep on this thread and two more pages. One with Watchman replying with very short replies, and then spam posting as many scriptures as he can find. Do you honestly expect anyone to respond to every single one in a timely manner? I know that the post length of this forum is limited so that is quite impossible. Why don't you pick one or two of the verses you posted, and we can discuss those first, and then move onto others. That would be a lot more conducive to discussion. I think.

Does anyone disagree with me on that point?Wow, you people are never satisfied. I try to discuss one or two scripture and you ask for more, so I give you more, and you ask me to limit my scriptures to one or two. hahahaha. The fact is i could give two passages or a hundred, you are still going to deny God's truth because your ears are itching for something comfortable to believe.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:12 PM
Agreed
Fruits that should be shown by true Christians

Lead by the Spirit.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Separate from sinners, whether the sinners are in the world or the church.
a. The world.
2nd Corinthians 2:17 Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, sayeth the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you.
b. The church.
2nd Thessalonians 3:6, and 14-15
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walks disorderly, and not after the traditions which he received from us.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy but admonish him as a brother.

Faithful
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Fearless.
2nd Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and love, and of a sound mind.

Righteous
1st John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Purity
1st John 3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purify himself, even as He is pure.

Holiness
1st Peter 1:16 Because it is written, be you holy as I am Holy.

Zealous in good works
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous in good works.

Rendering not evil for evil
Romans 12:17 Recompense no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
1st Thessalonians 5:23 See that none render evil for evil to any man ,but ever follow that which is good both among yourselves and to all men.

Overcoming evil with good.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Resisting all temptation.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive a crown of life, the Lord has promised to all them that love him.

Honest.
2nd Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Blameless
Philippians 2:14-15
14 Do all things without murmurings, and disputings.
15 That you may be blameless, the sons of God without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine like lights in the world.

Loving
Matthew 22:37-39,John 13:35,1st John 4:20
Matthew 22:37-39
37 Jesus said unto them, Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind
38 This is the first commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself
John 13:35 By this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you love one another.
1st John 4:20 If a man say he loves God and loveth not his brother he is a liar, for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen.

Jesus is returning for a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, holy without blemish, not a church that has soiled itself through the lust and cares of this life.
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present to himself a glorious church, not having sport or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy without blemish.


Absolutely excellent scriptures and Holy [sinless] living is exactly what the Bible teaches. God will not tolerate anything less than holiness (Hebrews 12.14)

Those who will still disagree will do so because they are spiritually blind:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Sad to say, many profess to know God, but a mere profession does not prove a genuine experience with Him.

1 John 3:6 "...whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."Thank you faithful for your response, and I agree, many are not seeking truth, but will hold on to their false beliefs regardless of what God has said in His Word.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:17 PM
Shorter than my answer but certainly is a good one :)


P.S. They said they wanted lots of scripture so I gave it to them. Yet they will still deny what the Word teaches.


Lord Lord, didn't we give them lots of scriptures in your Name?


No, we don't deny what scripture teaches, we just deny the errors of your understanding them.Partaker is a perfect example of what we have been talking about, (the blind leading the blind). He will never let go of his precious doctrine, you will have to pull it from his dead cold hand.


I have never understood why certain doctrines are more important to certain people than God Himself.

By the way love your nic DeafPosttrib. ;)

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:20 PM
Hi again DeafPosttrib!

"OSAS is a deadly dangerous doctrine"Finally, Partaker says something true. :D

Vhayes
May 14th 2009, 03:24 PM
Matthew 7
20 - "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Galatians 3
22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 - gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 03:26 PM
Vhayes made post at #122:

"he was STILL the father's son- the relationship stays true because of family, not proximity."

Ok, the question is, what if suppose the son never, never return back to his father, what happen to son? Christ said, he is 'dead' & 'lost' - Luke 15:32.

I ask you, what "lost" & "dead" mean to you?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 03:30 PM
Vhayes,

So, what Gal. 3:22-23 mean to you?

Are these of fruits- actions within our spiritual life?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Vhayes
May 14th 2009, 03:32 PM
Ok, the question is, what if suppose the son never, never return back to his father, what happen to son? Christ said, he is 'dead' & 'lost' - Luke 15:32.

I ask you, what "lost" & "dead" mean to you?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
That the son wasn't living the life he should have been living if he had stayed with his family.

What does "son" mean to you? i would also suggest that everyone read the Prodigal Son again. There is much to be learned from the "faithful" brothers reaction and the Fathers response to him.
V

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:35 PM
That the son wasn't living the life he should have been living if he had stayed with his family.

What does "son" mean to you? i would also suggest that everyone read the Prodigal Son again. There is much to be learned from the "faithful" brothers reaction and the Fathers response to him.
V
I think the story of the prodigal son is a wonderful story showing us the love God has for us, but it in no way supports OSAS, and it definitely does not negate the dozens upon dozens of scripture that disprove the false teaching of eternal security.

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 03:35 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Your comment on Romans 8:29-39 on post #96. This passage have do nothing with salvation. Because, 'sin' is not mentioned in this passage. This passage talks about everything of conditons and situations in out life cannot separate us from God's love.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Vhayes
May 14th 2009, 03:41 PM
Guys, I spent a large part of yesterday responding to posts and posting back and forth. I don't have that luxury today. I have to work - there are things I need to accomplish today.

My reason for even beginning to post in this thread was to ask people to NOT call names and to realize that those who stand by eternal security HAVE indeed studied and prayed.

That said, I'll leave this thread.

Peace -
V

DeafPosttrib
May 14th 2009, 03:42 PM
Vhayes,

You say,


That the son wasn't living the life he should have been living if he had stayed with his family.

You are partially correct saying. But, remember the parables of Luke chapter 15 deal with spiritual with illustration things.

Christ's point of son, while he remains in misery way, he is remain 'dead' & 'lost' both are clear speaking of spiritually dead and lost, not physical flesh.

His point is, if suppose we turn away from the Lord, and remain in world, then our spirit would be already dead and lost, what our dead spirit leading to? To everlasting fire.

Unless, if we repent back to God again, then we live again. This speaking of spiritual.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 03:44 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Your comment on Romans 8:29-39 on post #96. This passage have do nothing with salvation. Because, 'sin' is not mentioned in this passage. This passage talks about everything of conditons and situations in out life cannot separate us from God's love.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!To piggy back on that thought, the fact that God's loves us has nothing to do with our salvation status. God love the Christian, sinner, and backslider equally, that doesn't mean the sinner or backslider will escape His judgment.

Veretax
May 14th 2009, 03:56 PM
Guys, I spent a large part of yesterday responding to posts and posting back and forth. I don't have that luxury today. I have to work - there are things I need to accomplish today.

My reason for even beginning to post in this thread was to ask people to NOT call names and to realize that those who stand by eternal security HAVE indeed studied and prayed.

That said, I'll leave this thread.

Peace -
V


I think I shall do the same. As I don't see it going anywhere now.

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 04:33 PM
Guys, I spent a large part of yesterday responding to posts and posting back and forth. I don't have that luxury today. I have to work - there are things I need to accomplish today.

My reason for even beginning to post in this thread was to ask people to NOT call names and to realize that those who stand by eternal security HAVE indeed studied and prayed.

That said, I'll leave this thread.

Peace -
V
Thank you for your kind words, and your prayerful participation in this thread, V.

It's too bad that there remain some who can't or won't let go of their animosity. Spamming the thread with long posts filled with Scripture is not edifying, nor, do I believe, is it intended to be edifying. Spamming usually isn't a method of honest communication, but an attempt to silence the opposition.

Sometimes it's best to shake the dust from our feet and continue on.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2072497#post2072497)
I am ready. What is it you would like to know?
Let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomlane
Watchman you are giving a lot of view with no scripture to back you up. I would suggest if you want to prove these believers wrong such as Vertax and partaker of Christ you need to prove yourself with scripture.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 *Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

And you replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2072493#post2072493)
You must not have read through this thread I have given no less than 15 passages of scripture. How much scripture is needed to prove the truth?
The answer is, as much as it takes.





I have read this entire thread, and I have seen example over and over again of others giving you Scripture, and you responding without using any Scripture, to back up your position.



When you don't use God's word, when you don't back up your beliefs with Scripture, it shows that you probably are basing your beliefs on your opinion, on that which seems right to you.

And that's not edifying.




Thank you for your kind words, and your prayerful participation in this thread, V.

It's too bad that there remain some who can't or won't let go of their animosity. Spamming the thread with long posts filled with Scripture is not edifying, Do you not feel just a little hypocritical making this post seeing as it was you that asked for the scripture you now call spam?

So what exactly is not edifying? Not giving scripture? giving scripture? Or disagreeing with your false teaching?

You seem to not know what you want?

grit
May 14th 2009, 05:09 PM
woooo... :) I'm one who holds firmly to the Biblical presentation of eternal security, as stated in an earlier post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2070171&postcount=33). Such is not false. I certainly agree that errors in both logic and attitude have sometimes run deep in the thread, and I often value linking to Scripture more than long run-on postings of Scripture that seem intent as an over-kill of display rather than substantive equating with a particular doctrinal stance (not that everyone even knows how to link), but there's no mistaking that we indeed asked Watchman to post Scripture, and the request was followed through with an obedient response. :hug:

Hugs to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bless our hearts, I still haven't seen ANYWHERE in all our 16 pages of posts where we've even agreed that we're discussing the SAME thing. The OP was intent to gain an explanation of what OSAS is, and we just seem to be talking past each other, running on and on in our own private definition that isn't what other posters mean by the term at all.

Please give a simple explanation for what you believe OSAS to be, not how false or true, good or evil you mean for it to be. Thanks.

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 05:12 PM
woooo... :) I'm one who holds firmly to the Biblical presentation of eternal security, as stated in an earlier post. Such is not false. I certainly agree that errors in both logic and attitude have sometimes run deep in the thread, and I often value linking to Scripture more than long run-on postings of Scripture that seem intent as an over-kill of display rather than substantive equating with a particular doctrinal stance, but there's no mistaking that we indeed asked Watchman to post Scripture, and the request was followed through with an obedient response. :hug:

Hugs to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.:blush:................:hug:

fuzzi
May 14th 2009, 05:55 PM
woooo... :) I'm one who holds firmly to the Biblical presentation of eternal security, as stated in an earlier post (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2070171&postcount=33). Such is not false. I certainly agree that errors in both logic and attitude have sometimes run deep in the thread, and I often value linking to Scripture more than long run-on postings of Scripture that seem intent as an over-kill of display rather than substantive equating with a particular doctrinal stance (not that everyone even knows how to link), but there's no mistaking that we indeed asked Watchman to post Scripture, and the request was followed through with an obedient response. :hug:

Hugs to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bless our hearts, I still haven't seen ANYWHERE in all our 16 pages of posts where we've even agreed that we're discussing the SAME thing. The OP was intent to gain an explanation of what OSAS is, and we just seem to be talking past each other, running on and on in our own private definition that isn't what other posters mean by the term at all.

Please give a simple explanation for what you believe OSAS to be, not how false or true, good or evil you mean for it to be. Thanks.
Thank you for a gracious post, Grit.

I'd never heard the term OSAS until I joined this forum, a couple months ago. I was familiar with the term 'eternal security' and was aware that some believe that you can 'lose' your salvation.

This is how I understand Scripture: once you truly accept God's offer of salvation, through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, you are a new creature, and you are saved by the blood of Christ, for all eternity.

Now this 'heretick' will sit by the sidelines and watch. ;)

Watchmen
May 14th 2009, 06:08 PM
Please give a simple explanation for what you believe OSAS to be, not how false or true, good or evil you mean for it to be. Thanks.OSAS, means Once Saved Always Saved, also known as Eternal Security. It means once you get saved there is absolutely nothing you can do to ''loose'', forfeit, return or get rid of it. Which in theory at least would include Murder, theft, adultery, fornication, blasphemy ect.... and since your past, present, and future sins have been forgiven at your ''rebirth'' or conversion you need not to even repent of these sins.

Why is that evil? Because Satan if the only person who would want you to believe you can continue in unrepentant sin, refusing to do the will of the Father, remaining of the wide path that leads to destruction and still go to Heaven because at some point in your life you ask Jesus into your heart and/or were baptized.

I find the whole idea very dangerous.

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 08:18 PM
Partaker of Christ,

I ask you of Matthew 25:14-30.

Whose of Christ's speaking on Matt. 25:14-30 apply to?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi DeafPosttrib!

Were did the Master dwell, before He left for a far country?

Perhaps this will give us a better understanding of Matt 25.

Matt 2:2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

Matt 27:11 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?" And Jesus said to him, "It is as you say."


Luke 19:11 While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.


Luke 19:12 So He said, "A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return.

Luke 19:13 "And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas and said to them, 'Do business with this until I come back.'
Luke 19:14 "But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'

Luke 19:15 "When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done.
Luke 19:16 "The first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.'
Luke 19:17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.'
Luke 19:18 "The second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.'
Luke 19:19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.'
Luke 19:20 "Another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief;
Luke 19:21 for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.'
Luke 19:22 "He *said to him, 'By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? Luke 19:23 'Then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?'
Luke 19:24 "Then he said to the bystanders, 'Take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.'
Luke 19:25 "And they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas already.'
Luke 19:26 "I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Luke 19:27 "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

Partaker of Christ
May 14th 2009, 08:42 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Let's look in John 14:15 carefully:

"IF ye love me, KEEP my commandments."

Christ doesn't say, "will keep my commandments."

John 14:15 is very, very clear speaking of command to us, IF we love Him, KEEP his commandments.

Too many claim, "I love Jesus", but not doing serve the Lord, then, therefore, they do not obey Christ.

To have eternal life, is to obey Christ throughout our life till we die.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Hi DeafPosttrib!

Lets try again :D

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

KEEPETH [G5083 tēreō]

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

For me it is like 'Keep the Faith'
Keep, hold and protect the true gospel in truth.

Vhayes
May 14th 2009, 08:53 PM
Partaker of Christ,

Let's look in John 14:15 carefully:

"IF ye love me, KEEP my commandments."

Christ doesn't say, "will keep my commandments."

John 14:15 is very, very clear speaking of command to us, IF we love Him, KEEP his commandments.

Too many claim, "I love Jesus", but not doing serve the Lord, then, therefore, they do not obey Christ.

To have eternal life, is to obey Christ throughout our life till we die.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I John 3
18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 - We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him
20 - in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
21 - Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 - and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 - This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Butch5
May 15th 2009, 01:22 AM
Jesus said His sheep would never perish. That is proof enough that we cannot lose our Salvation for me.

He said that the one that believes has eternal life abiding in him.

He said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Doesn't sound like they lose their Salvation to me.

I choose to believe the Word of the Lord rather than one who preaches a life of fear of losing Salvation. Christ holds my Salvation in His hands, I cannot lose it for it is eternally secure.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Notice all of those promises are only to those who believe. Actually it is preset tense belief.

Butch5
May 15th 2009, 01:28 AM
Lord Lord, didn't we give them lots of scriptures in your Name?


No, we don't deny what scripture teaches, we just deny the errors of your understanding them.

My prayer for both you (Watchmen) and Butch is this:

:pray:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


It is not error my friend, it is Scripture. I don't have to dance around Scripture to hold my position. Jesus said this to His disciples,

Matthew 6:14-15 ( KJV )
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How do they enter eternal llife without having their sins forgiven?

My heart's Desire
May 15th 2009, 02:01 AM
Why is that evil? l go to Heaven because at some point in your life you ask Jesus into your heart and/or were baptized.

I find the whole idea very dangerous.That idea may be dangerous but when people say this is the method they were converted by who are we to tell them "It was false" just because that's how it happened. When Jesus died for us and our sin, most of us didn't exist yet and ALL of our sins were still future. A saved person will be different than they were before. The Word says we are a new creation EVEN if we don't act different, feel different or look different.
What I think is dangerous is not knowing the Power of Jesus Christ and His ability to save completely.

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2073217#post2073217)
Why is that evil? l go to Heaven because at some point in your life you ask Jesus into your heart and/or were baptized.

I find the whole idea very dangerous.

That idea may be dangerous but when people say this is the method they were converted by who are we to tell them "It was false" just because that's how it happened. When Jesus died for us and our sin, most of us didn't exist yet and ALL of our sins were still future. A saved person will be different than they were before. The Word says we are a new creation EVEN if we don't act different, feel different or look different.
What I think is dangerous is not knowing the Power of Jesus Christ and His ability to save completely.Post what I said don't edit it to make it seem like I said something I did not.

Accepting Christ into your heart and being baptized is not dangerous nor evil. What is dangerous and evil, is believing that you can continue in unrepentant sin, refusing to bow to the Lordship of Christ, resisting the will of the Father, walking the wide path that leads to destruction, and yet will receive the reward of the righteous because you said a pray or were dunked in water. Yes, this belief is very dangerous.

This is my post you attempted to distort.

Originally Posted by Watchmen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2073217#post2073217)
OSAS, means Once Saved Always Saved, also known as Eternal Security. It means once you get saved there is absolutely nothing you can do to ''loose'', forfeit, return or get rid of it. Which in theory at least would include Murder, theft, adultery, fornication, blasphemy ect.... and since your past, present, and future sins have been forgiven at your ''rebirth'' or conversion you need not to even repent of these sins.

Why is that evil? Because Satan if the only person who would want you to believe you can continue in unrepentant sin, refusing to do the will of the Father, remaining of the wide path that leads to destruction and still go to Heaven because at some point in your life you ask Jesus into your heart and/or were baptized.

I find the whole idea very dangerous.

CommanderRobey
May 15th 2009, 02:55 AM
Wow, you people are never satisfied. I try to discuss one or two scripture and you ask for more, so I give you more, and you ask me to limit my scriptures to one or two. hahahaha. The fact is i could give two passages or a hundred, you are still going to deny God's truth because your ears are itching for something comfortable to believe.
I choose to believe my Lord Jesus Christ who said my Salvation was hinged upon my belief in Him... not in works.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Once I placed my faith in Him who died for me, I was clothed in His righteousness. That is why I am saved and will never lose that Salvation. Because I can never stop believing in Him, I will never lose that gift of Salvation. His Spirit reminds me daily of Him, His Word reminds me daily of Him. I cannot forget Him, I cannot stop believing in Him because of His work in my life... even though I still sin from time to time.

OSAS is a reality. Losing one's Salvation is fiction.

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 03:01 AM
I choose to believe my Lord Jesus Christ who said my Salvation was hinged upon my belief in Him... not in works.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Once I placed my faith in Him who died for me, I was clothed in His righteousness. That is why I am saved and will never lose that Salvation. Because I can never stop believing in Him, I will never lose that gift of Salvation. His Spirit reminds me daily of Him, His Word reminds me daily of Him. I cannot forget Him, I cannot stop believing in Him because of His work in my life... even though I still sin from time to time.

OSAS is a reality. Losing one's Salvation is fiction.You do not believe Jesus He taught Repentance and remission of sins, not simply forgiveness.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
You have no understanding of what the truth even is.

CommanderRobey
May 15th 2009, 03:04 AM
Thank you for a gracious post, Grit.

I'd never heard the term OSAS until I joined this forum, a couple months ago. I was familiar with the term 'eternal security' and was aware that some believe that you can 'lose' your salvation.

This is how I understand Scripture: once you truly accept God's offer of salvation, through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ, you are a new creature, and you are saved by the blood of Christ, for all eternity.

Now this 'heretick' will sit by the sidelines and watch. ;)

Heretick #2 sitting by as well. And anxiously looking for our Lord's return.

CommanderRobey
May 15th 2009, 03:12 AM
You do not believe Jesus He taught Repentance and remission of sins, not simply forgiveness.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
You have no understanding of what the truth even is.
It is satan who is the accuser of the Brethren. Why do you allow yourself to be used to accuse me falsely as you do?

Your 'holier than thou' attitude is one of the first of the deadly sins that are an abomination in God's eyes.

I will continue to believe my Salvation is secure because God's Word assures me of this. You can choose to live in fear of losing your Salvation if you want.

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 03:36 AM
It is satan who is the accuser of the Brethren. Why do you allow yourself to be used to accuse me falsely as you do?I have accuse no brethren. However you accusing me of accusing you is awfully hypocritical of you isn't?

CommanderRobey
May 15th 2009, 04:47 AM
Your post here http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2072139&postcount=133
clearly tells us we are going to hell thereby accusing us of not being of Christ.

You are allowing satan to use you in accusing us.

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 04:53 AM
Your post here http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2072139&postcount=133
clearly tells us we are going to hell thereby accusing us of not being of Christ.

You are allowing satan to use you in accusing us.Here is the post that your link sent me to. There is not one single accusation in this post at all.
If you are right and I am wrong, I have not harmed you in the least by suggesting you need to live a more godly life. If, however, I am right and you are wrong, thousands (possibly including you) will come to the knowledge of these truths only as they arrive in eternity and to their horror discover they are forever condemned to Hell. Therefore I will leave you these questions.

Ask yourself:

1. Is this life, your pet theology, or your favorite sin worth your soul?
2. Would you not give up everything for a chance to spend eternity with God?
3. The great day of judgment will indeed come one day. are you ready today, to stand before God and give an account?
So not only do you accuse me of accusing you, but then you give the link to prove that it was a false accusation. What Satan does is falsely accuse, as you have plainly done. I haven't falsely accused anyone of anything

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 05:07 AM
Your post here http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=2072139&postcount=133
clearly tells us we are going to hell thereby accusing us of not being of Christ.Who are the we in this sentence? If by we you mean all believers of OSAS you need to reread the post. If the we is people who because of the OSAS doctrine live in chronic, unrepentant sin thinking they do not really have to serve the Lord to receive eternal life, then you are right I am saying you will end up in Hell, but that is no false accusation of the brethren, it is the truth of God's word.

Romans 1:29-32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murders, debate, deceit, malignity; whispers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they that commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So it is not only those that live in sin that are worthy of death, but those that accept it and or take pleasure in those that live in sin.



1st Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornication, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Pretty clear, there is no if, and, or buts, those that live in sin will not make it to heaven.



Colossians 3:24-25
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
We that serve the Lord shall receive our inheritance, but those that commit sin shall also receive what they deserve. God will not turn a blind eye to your sin, while judging others for theirs, for there is no respect with God. He treats us all equally.



Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be you therefore followers of God as dear children,
2 And walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not once be named among you, as becometh saint;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
The scripture is clear, no sinner has any inheritance in the kingdom of God nor of Christ. It also emphatically states that you should not allow yourself to be deceived by vain talkers, such as those that promote the OSAS doctrine. If you partake in the sins of the world you will also partake in the wrath of God with them.



Revelation 21:7-8
7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This passage states that the overcomers shall inherit all things but that all sinners will burn in the lake of fire. So if you claim yourself to be a ''sinner'' saved by grace then you will burn with the sinners. If you think you can continue in sin without consequence you are mistaken.

All sinners will be judged. Whether they say they are saved, believe themselves to be saved. Whether they believe in Jesus or have been baptized or not. No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.

Vhayes
May 15th 2009, 05:11 AM
No sin nor those who commit sin will enter into Heaven.
I'm not doubting you, but where is this verse. I want to read it for myself.
And I'm not being a wise acre, I'm serious.
Thanks -
V

Watchmen
May 15th 2009, 05:27 AM
I'm not doubting you, but where is this verse. I want to read it for myself.
And I'm not being a wise acre, I'm serious.
Thanks -
VRead the scriptures in post #244
1st John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Do you believe that the children of Satan will enter Heaven?


Matthew 7
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
sin nor sinners enter the Kingdom





I have a question for you. What sin do you think God will allow into Heaven? Does God have to list every single sin one by one for us to realize none are allowed?



Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death;..........


James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brings death not life.


It seems pretty crazy defending such a foundational truth as sin will not inherit life.

CommanderRobey
May 15th 2009, 06:51 AM
1st John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Do you believe that the children of Satan will enter Heaven?

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You, Watchman, are not sinless. You will not be sinless as long as you are in your fleshly body.

You are deceiving yourself if you think you are.

DeafPosttrib
May 15th 2009, 11:33 AM
CommanderRobey,

We all have flesh. We all do make mistakes sin daily even, also Watchman does too. He knows that.

The point of 1 John 1:8 telling us, anyone who say, "I have no sin like as never do commit a sin for a week or a month for long time." This verse tells us, we all do commit sins daily, God knows us well. 1 John 1:9 tells us, that we have to confess our sins to Lord damily, no matter if we cannot remember if we did commit a sin recently ago, yet, we ought always confess our sins to Lord all the times long as Lord is faithful to forgive and clean all our sins all the times.

Or, otherwise, if we still sinning for long time, and not yet confess our current sins to God, therefore, God is not going to forgive our current sins unless till we confess them to God first.

Keep in mind, suppose if, we do practically sin life, and never make confession sins to God for long time till we die with our sins, then God will NOT forgive our current sins, what will happen to us with our sins when after we die? Our sins will take us to hell.

In James 1:15-16 warn us, if we continue in sins, sins will bring us forth to death. It is not speak of physical death, but spiritually death will be in hell. That why verse 16 says, "DO NOT ERR, my beloved brethren." This is clearly warning verse to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Firstfruits
May 15th 2009, 11:48 AM
With regards to the following scripture what does it mean not to abide in Christ, if we sin are we abiding in Christ?

Jn 15:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it Abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye Abide in me.
Jn 15:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jn 15:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Jn 15:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Can we sin and still be in the light?

1 Jn 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 Jn 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
May 15th 2009, 12:25 PM
1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You, Watchman, are not sinless. You will not be sinless as long as you are in your fleshly body.

You are deceiving yourself if you think you are.

I John 1:8 is the most popular verse used for religious sinners. It can be explained in its proper context using the ENTIRE Word of God to rightly divide the word of truth.

I John 1:8 is directed unto those who have not yet received Salvation, and thus they did not believe they had the guilt of sin upon their lives, thus they didn't see the need of Christs blood to redeem them.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously the individuals were not Christians, and were NOT in fellowship with the Christian writer John. He's letting them know "Hey, you guys are sinners and if you don't believe in the element of sin, you'll deceive yourself"

The Gnostics didn't believe in sin.

If you compare I John 1:8 to what John also wrote you'll find:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If Christ cleanses you from all sin, there is no more sin left over, it is ALL gone.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

One of Christs commandments was to "go and sin no more."

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked without sin, we are to walk just as he walked, without sin.

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

True Christians have overcome [defeated] the wicked one and his temptations.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Everyone who lives righteously is born of God. Righteousness is living free from sin.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever abides in Christ doesn't sin, if you do sin, you do not know God, regardless of religious profession.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that lives righteously is righteous just as Christ is.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those who commit sin are of the devil, and they are a slave to sin because Christ himself said so. You cannot be a slave to sin and free from it at the same time. Christ came to destroy the works [sin] in mans heart.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Those who are born of God [born again] do not commit sin.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In this, [the sin issue], the Children of God and children of the Devil are made manifest. Those who sin are not of God, those who do not sin are of God.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Remember he commanded "go and sin no more" and his commandments are not impossible to obey. Those who truly love Christ, obey his commands.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Those who are truly saved can overcome the world [sin]

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Don't forget the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. The unrighteous are those who sin.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whoever is born again doesn't sin.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

We know those who are of God by their holy [sinless] life, while the rest of the world lies in wickedness [sin].

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