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Partaker of Christ
May 4th 2009, 11:01 PM
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I have an unusual question:

Since Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, does that mean that every sin that Jesus Christ died for, would have need to be 'realised' before the GWT comes.

Scruffy Kid
May 4th 2009, 11:12 PM
Hi, Partaker of Christ!!

No, I don't think so.

We could ask, How is it possible that the sacrifice of Jesus, one man, even though He is perfect, sinless, could pay for the sins of billions?

The answer is that Christ Jesus, though fully a human being, and sinless, was also the Eternal Word of God, the everlasting Son of the Father. Thus, it was God himself who took our sins; and the greatness of Christ's Sacrifice was the greatness of God giving His life for us. Thus Christ's sacrifice is greater -- indeed far greater -- than the sins of the whole world.

Something like that is what I believe John means in this wonderful and grace-filled verse in I John 2:2.

In a way the way that Jesus fed the 5000, and the 4000, or made wine at the Wedding of Cana, is a little picture of this. Christ took bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to them, and all were filled. But beyond that, there were 12 baskets of fragments collected. Similarly at Cana, Christ made far more wine (about 120 gallons) than would be needed at the wedding feast. These things help illustrate that the greatness of Christ Jesus, fully God and fully man, provides for us abundantly exceedingly above all that we could ask for, hope for, or desire. In particular, His grace is more than sufficient for the sins of the whole world.

9Marksfan
May 4th 2009, 11:17 PM
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I have an unusual question:

Since Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, does that mean that every sin that Jesus Christ died for, would have need to be 'realised' before the GWT comes.

What do you mean by "realised"? Committed? If so, yes - God sees the end from the beginning. But it depends on what you mean by "the whole world". If it means "of every individual" then you have to conclude either that all will be saved or that Christ's death actually saves no one - it only made it possible. The first is manifestly untrue. The second doesn't really make for a glorious Saviour....

Partaker of Christ
May 4th 2009, 11:37 PM
What do you mean by "realised"? Committed? If so, yes - God sees the end from the beginning. But it depends on what you mean by "the whole world". If it means "of every individual" then you have to conclude either that all will be saved or that Christ's death actually saves no one - it only made it possible. The first is manifestly untrue. The second doesn't really make for a glorious Saviour....

Hi Nigel!

Yes I meen committed.

I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the 'whole' world (every individual)

I do not believe that it is effective for every individual, but only those who will receive the gift of grace. "whosoever will come"

bagofseed
May 5th 2009, 12:17 AM
What do you mean by "realised"? Committed? If so, yes - God sees the end from the beginning. But it depends on what you mean by "the whole world". If it means "of every individual" then you have to conclude either that all will be saved or that Christ's death actually saves no one - it only made it possible. The first is manifestly untrue. The second doesn't really make for a glorious Saviour....
As I understand the work of salvation.
The whole world was bought out of bondage to sin at the cross (redemption, passover)
Most want to go back to Egypt, few ever believe and enter (take possession of) the promised land.

The cross brings everyone out of slavery into the wilderness.
Faith brings the chosen out of the wilderness into relationship through sanctification.
(that's salvation step two, though still paid for at the cross)

The outcome of that sanctification is eternal life, indestructible life, where we become partakers of the divine nature, the promised land.

Final step, to the one who conquers, overcomes, Jesus in the Glory of the Father will bring our bodies in line with the glory of the life within.

God made all things culminate in Jesus!
All sins have been passed over, only one left I believe, the unforgivable sin, to be guilty of considering the blood of Jesus worthless and trampling it under foot by our continuing in acts of unbelief.

SemperReformanda
May 5th 2009, 12:28 AM
Hi Nigel!

Yes I meen committed.

I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the 'whole' world (every individual)

I do not believe that it is effective for every individual, but only those who will receive the gift of grace. "whosoever will come"
Is refusing to come to Christ a sin?

Partaker of Christ
May 5th 2009, 12:37 AM
Is refusing to come to Christ a sin?

Yes.

Many refuse to come to Christ, but later some repent, and are forgiven.

bagofseed
May 5th 2009, 12:40 AM
1Jo 3:23 (http://classicbst.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+3:23&version=nas&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1)This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

BroRog
May 5th 2009, 02:43 AM
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I have an unusual question:

Since Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, does that mean that every sin that Jesus Christ died for, would have need to be 'realised' before the GWT comes.

I take note of the fact that Jesus' death on the cross became the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. In other words, Jesus didn't die for the sins of the whole world as your question suggests. Rather he became the propitiation for our sins.

Jesus has appeased the wrath of God.

If we are to understand John, I believe we need to picture the idea that our sins have caused an estrangement between God and human kind. And so, just as it is between two people, in order to make peace between two parties, say between God and human kind, the one having been offended must be appeased in some way.

Think of God and man facing back-to-back and alienated from each other. Even if man were to turn around and plead to God for mercy, his prayers would go unanswered until God turned around to face man. Likewise, even if God were to turn around to face man, peace will never be found between them unless man turns toward God. Both parties must turn toward each other.

John is saying that Jesus' death on the cross appeased God's wrath such that God was willing to turn toward every man. But salvation can not take place until man turns toward God.

Therefore, though Jesus' death on the cross was the propitiation of God's wrath toward all human beings, salvation can only take place when each man or woman repents and seeks forgiveness. Though propitiation is a necessary condition of salvation, it is not the only condition for salvation.

bagofseed
May 5th 2009, 03:11 AM
The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory (http://www.theopedia.com/Satisfaction_theory). Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity; however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution.

crossnote
May 5th 2009, 06:16 AM
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I have an unusual question:

Since Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, does that mean that every sin that Jesus Christ died for, would have need to be 'realised' before the GWT comes.

The promise was indirectly to Adam and Eve. All mankind was in Adam, therefore the promise was indirectly to all mankind.

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
(Gen 3:15)

By indirectly I mean even though it was spoken to the serpent it's benefits implied mankind.

Oma
May 5th 2009, 09:57 AM
In understanding "world" in 1John 2:2 I find John Gill's comments helpful. The "whole world" meaning believers from the whole world as opposed to just the Jews as it was under the OT ecomony.

and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

but also for [the sins] of the whole world; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles amle, "the world";

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