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Jeffinator
May 5th 2009, 07:20 PM
In Genesis 3:24
"So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

They had swords in the Garden of Eden? I thought they were created by man for warring purposes, why would God have swords before we did and give it a flying monster to guard the tree? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter..:hmm:

-SEEKING-
May 5th 2009, 07:32 PM
I guess we'll have to ask Him. By the way this was written BEFORE Harry Potter.

decrumpit
May 5th 2009, 07:40 PM
Perhaps it's not meant to be read literally? Just a thought.

Athanasius
May 5th 2009, 07:54 PM
In Genesis 3:24
"So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

They had swords in the Garden of Eden? I thought they were created by man for warring purposes, why would God have swords before we did and give it a flying monster to guard the tree? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter..:hmm:

I think putting a cherubim with the flaming sword (is the cherubim holding the sword or is the sword moving of its own volition?) would scary away any man - after all, that was the point.

daughter
May 5th 2009, 07:56 PM
The angel had a sword.

Also, if you don't want to take it literally, you can think what a sword means in Scriptural metaphor.

The Word of God is a sword. Man had rebelled against the word of God, and therefore we are cut out of paradise, and cannot return.

Personally, I have no problem taking it as both a literal visualisation of what they saw as they were driven out, and as a spiritual representation that the double edged sword of God's word turned against us when we rebelled.

Resist!
May 5th 2009, 08:35 PM
perhaps mankind decided to fashion a weapon after God's design?
:hmm:
or perhaps it is analogous? - the best possible verbal interpretation of the experience. along the lines of "a picture is worth a thousand words", only words fail to entirely capture the awesomeness of the event.

just a thought...

Jeffinator
May 5th 2009, 08:38 PM
I think the author of Genesis meant it literally, but it doesnt add up because swords weren't invented yet. Idk it just bothers me because its one of those things just doesn't add up and sometimes makes me think if it really happened at all. Maybe I'm taking it too seriously but thats what I feel when I read something like that.

TrophyofGrace
May 5th 2009, 08:42 PM
The way I read it, after God drove out the man, He placed Cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way east of the garden of Eden to keep man away from the tree of life.

I have no reason to think it wasn't a real sword that God had turning in every direction...that particular weapon was God's, not man's.

Resist!
May 5th 2009, 08:51 PM
I think the author of Genesis meant it literally, but it doesnt add up because swords weren't invented yet. Idk it just bothers me because its one of those things just doesn't add up and sometimes makes me think if it really happened at all. Maybe I'm taking it too seriously but thats what I feel when I read something like that.

the passage would indicate that swords had indeed been invented ;), simply not yet utilized by man.

TrophyofGrace
May 5th 2009, 08:57 PM
the passage would indicate that swords had indeed been invented ;), simply not yet utilized by man.


But maybe that's where man got the idea? :idea:

Semi-tortured
May 5th 2009, 09:49 PM
I think the author of Genesis meant it literally, but it doesnt add up because swords weren't invented yet. Idk it just bothers me because its one of those things just doesn't add up and sometimes makes me think if it really happened at all. Maybe I'm taking it too seriously but thats what I feel when I read something like that.

Just a quick question, but do you know when swords were invented? They only needed to be invented before the book was written, not at the time of the event actually happening. As long as they were around when Moses wrote Genesis so he could recognize them, that's really all that matters.

Besides, they may call it a frelegourgor in Heaven, but when God is trying to tell Moses what to write, He might have been like, "Just call it a sword, that's the closest thing to it you guys have come up with."

Athanasius
May 6th 2009, 12:07 AM
But maybe that's where man got the idea? :idea:

Imagine them trying to create a flaming sword? Gah! That must have been frustrating.

Jeffinator
May 6th 2009, 12:11 AM
Just a quick question, but do you know when swords were invented? They only needed to be invented before the book was written, not at the time of the event actually happening. As long as they were around when Moses wrote Genesis so he could recognize them, that's really all that matters.

Besides, they may call it a frelegourgor in Heaven, but when God is trying to tell Moses what to write, He might have been like, "Just call it a sword, that's the closest thing to it you guys have come up with."

I don't think so because when theres no name for something God usually just describes it. Like in Job 40:15-24 when He is talking about the large behemoths or animals. Plus a sword has a handle and is designed to be wielded by man, not float around in front of a tree.

scottinnj
May 6th 2009, 12:45 AM
Well, having a sword floating around in front of the tree would be absolutely clear to whoever came near it. The "Stay Away" warning by using a sword needs no interpretation for whoever came near it no matter where they came from or what language they spoke.

MLC
May 6th 2009, 01:57 AM
In Genesis 3:24
They had swords in the Garden of Eden?

Yes, they did.


I thought they were created by man for warring purposes,Well, they were later on, but this one was not.


why would God have swords before we did and give it a flying monster to guard the tree?With all due respect, that question doesn't even make much sense. Why wouldn't God have swords before humans did? What evidence refutes that possibility? Also, it was not a flying monster, it was an angel of God.


I don't think so because when theres no name for something God usually just describes it. Like in Job 40:15-24 when He is talking about the large behemoths or animals.That example doesn't prove that God usually does anything; and when this was written there was a name for it. (it was written by Moses) Swords were around before this though, just because it may not of had a particular name at the time doesn't mean that it didn't fall under the definition of a sword during the time it was written.


Plus a sword has a handle and is designed to be wielded by man, not float around in front of a tree. The sword here was meant to be wielded by a cherubim (an angel), in no way does a sword have to be used by a man.


its one of those things just doesn't add up and sometimes makes me think if it really happened at all.If this is making you doubt the authenticity of the word of God then I would say seek this answer from God more, or seek peace on this issue from God, he will deal with it.

Dani H
May 6th 2009, 03:47 AM
In Genesis 3:24
"So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

They had swords in the Garden of Eden? I thought they were created by man for warring purposes, why would God have swords before we did and give it a flying monster to guard the tree? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter..:hmm:

Because God isn't like us, and can use whatever He desires to accomplish His own purposes. He had whole planets and galaxies and angels and whatever else before we did, why is this such a stretch?

Nothing like a flaming sword moving around on its own to firmly send someone the message of "Thou shalt not cross (or else)".

Jeffinator
May 6th 2009, 04:12 AM
Because God isn't like us, and can use whatever He desires to accomplish His own purposes. He had whole planets and galaxies and angels and whatever else before we did, why is this such a stretch?

Nothing like a flaming sword moving around on its own to firmly send someone the message of "Thou shalt not cross (or else)".

Is it mean to be taken literally though?

Dani H
May 6th 2009, 06:02 AM
Is it mean to be taken literally though?

I couldn't begin to tell you, but I'd have no problem with it.

But let's do remember that Jesus is spoken of in Revelation of having a sword coming out of His mouth that strikes His enemies.

So the application would be that of judgment. :)

Jeffinator
May 6th 2009, 07:50 AM
I couldn't begin to tell you, but I'd have no problem with it.

But let's do remember that Jesus is spoken of in Revelation of having a sword coming out of His mouth that strikes His enemies.

So the application would be that of judgment. :)

Yea I'm starting to think of it as more symbolic, the Cherubim was supposed to be literal so I dont know.

BroRog
May 6th 2009, 02:42 PM
You're over-thinking it. :)

Alaska
May 6th 2009, 08:30 PM
Adam didn't get off the ground after having been given the breath of life and then need to go to language classes or vocal exercises before he could talk.
The point being: information, knowledge and ability was programmed so that his first day of life as a fully mature man was, well, as a fully mature man. He could speak and therefore vocabulary and meanings of words had been miraculously instilled in him the same as his ability to stand up and not fall down, having never "learned" to walk.

When God told him about the wonderful provision of the fruit trees that he could freely eat from, Adam didn't have to ask what a tree was.

The assumption that he had to have been familiar or to have actually seen a sword beforehand to know what a sword was when he saw it, is not much different than supposing that he had to ask what a tree was when God spoke to him about the trees.

This sword, being a flaming sword, was obviously a creation of God and not something hammered out on some anvil somewhere. So whether it be a tree or a sword, both creations of God, Adam was able to understand what they were and identify them even if seen by him for the first time, apparently by the same instilled knowledge that enabled him to talk or walk.

Jeffinator
May 6th 2009, 08:45 PM
Adam didn't get off the ground after having been given the breath of life and then need to go to language classes or vocal exercises before he could talk.
The point being: information, knowledge and ability was programmed so that his first day of life as a fully mature man was, well, as a fully mature man. He could speak and therefore vocabulary and meanings of words had been miraculously instilled in him the same as his ability to stand up and not fall down, having never "learned" to walk.

When God told him about the wonderful provision of the fruit trees that he could freely eat from, Adam didn't have to ask what a tree was.

The assumption that he had to have been familiar or to have actually seen a sword beforehand to know what a sword was when he saw it, is not much different than supposing that he had to ask what a tree was when God spoke to him about the trees.

This sword, being a flaming sword, was obviously a creation of God and not something hammered out on some anvil somewhere. So whether it be a tree or a sword, both creations of God, Adam was able to understand what they were and identify them even if seen by him for the first time, apparently by the same instilled knowledge that enabled him to talk or walk.

But He is God, He can make and do whatever He wants. So why make a sword that was created by man? He could have made something we never heard of or seen before. Thats like him putting up an iron fence when He can make one out of something a million times better or stronger that we have never heard of.

BroRog
May 7th 2009, 01:48 AM
But He is God, He can make and do whatever He wants. So why make a sword that was created by man? He could have made something we never heard of or seen before. Thats like him putting up an iron fence when He can make one out of something a million times better or stronger that we have never heard of.

If I were Adam, and I spent many wonderful days in paradise, and I was walking and talking with God personally, I'd want to go back really bad. Not only that, but in my own experience, whenever I do something really stupid, foolish, or unwise, I want a "do over."

I believe Adam had a very strong incentive to return to Paradise. And so, God had to place a guard at the entrance so that Adam couldn't return.

Besides, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it isn't a good idea to approach a man who wields fire. Adam didn't need to have prior experience with swords in order to be afraid.

MLC
May 7th 2009, 04:45 AM
But He is God, He can make and do whatever He wants. So why make a sword that was created by man? He could have made something we never heard of or seen before. Thats like him putting up an iron fence when He can make one out of something a million times better or stronger that we have never heard of.

God has no reason to prove himself in such a way to anyway. Also, you asked why make a sword created by man. Well, he didn't, at that time there was no such thing as a sword before God created it. It was something man had never seen before up to that point since there was no reason for war or such weapons at that point in time.

Jeffinator
May 7th 2009, 05:39 AM
God has no reason to prove himself in such a way to anyway. Also, you asked why make a sword created by man. Well, he didn't, at that time there was no such thing as a sword before God created it. It was something man had never seen before up to that point since there was no reason for war or such weapons at that point in time.

Maybe I just dont get it. Why a sword, thats kind of obscure to me. He could of had a fire breathing dragon, an angel of power, heck a mountain covered in fireballs to protect the tree. But He picked a man made warring tool used to cut during war? And if He could have used any man made thing not yet made why not a Grenade launcher? German WWII tank?..maybe I'm getting silly but its one of those things that just doesnt make sense to me. Also, if Adam never saw a sword before how would he know it could cut him?

daughter
May 7th 2009, 09:05 AM
Jeff... I'm just thoroughly puzzled.

Why do you believe that God is using something that was invented by man before man invented it, and therefore there's some kind of anachronism in the text. Does it not at least seem possible to you that God actually did invent the concept of "sword", that our "swords" are very poor imitations of something in the heavenlies?

We know that many things in our plane of reality are shadows or types of heavenly realities... the Tabernacle, the Temples, The Ark, the Sacrifices etc... they are representations of things beyond our ken.

Why not a sword?

rondoman
May 7th 2009, 10:19 AM
Jeff... I'm just thoroughly puzzled.

Why do you believe that God is using something that was invented by man before man invented it, and therefore there's some kind of anachronism in the text. Does it not at least seem possible to you that God actually did invent the concept of "sword", that our "swords" are very poor imitations of something in the heavenlies?

We know that many things in our plane of reality are shadows or types of heavenly realities... the Tabernacle, the Temples, The Ark, the Sacrifices etc... they are representations of things beyond our ken.

Why not a sword?

Why didn't God just add a shield that nobody can penetrate? or create a huge trench or supernatural miracle to prevent anyone from entering the garden? Swords are to cut mortal flesh. Why would God or any angel need swords? Would the angels really have killed Adam and Eve if they tried to re-enter the Garden? Why do the angels need fiery swords to scare Adam and Eve away? Can't they just tell them "You may not enter" and through God's power nobody can get in?

daughter
May 7th 2009, 10:41 AM
Again, He could have done anything. Why did He do anything the way He did? And why does it matter? We're told what happened... why are folks so caught up in this?

I just don't get it.

Teke
May 7th 2009, 02:29 PM
In Genesis 3:24
"So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life."

They had swords in the Garden of Eden? I thought they were created by man for warring purposes, why would God have swords before we did and give it a flying monster to guard the tree? Sounds like something out of Harry Potter..:hmm:

Hi Jeff, :)

It's just a translation. May not be the best one, but it gets the idea across that they are guardians. Here (http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app41.html) is an appendix from the Companion Bible that may help you understand the "Cherubim". As, "Only by the usage of the whole of Scripture can we form an approximately true idea."

What I think is more interesting to note on this verse, is the English rendering "every way", which is not meant in the senses of side, about, back or toward but rather effectually preserving the way.

Also, notice "keep" in the verse. Same Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:15 (also 17:9,10, 18:19). "Keep" is meant in the sense of preserve, keep safe.

Man is not to "live forever" in his fallen condition, but only in Christ. 1 John 5:11,12

mcgyver
May 7th 2009, 02:33 PM
Maybe I just dont get it. Why a sword, thats kind of obscure to me. He could of had a fire breathing dragon, an angel of power, heck a mountain covered in fireballs to protect the tree. But He picked a man made warring tool used to cut during war? And if He could have used any man made thing not yet made why not a Grenade launcher? German WWII tank?..maybe I'm getting silly but its one of those things that just doesnt make sense to me. Also, if Adam never saw a sword before how would he know it could cut him?

Here's a illustration that might help you out....

Let's suppose that a Jet Aircraft in flight is "time warped" to the year 1700, and is seen by someone of the time.

How do you think that they could describe such a thing using only the words and frame of reference of the time?

It might come out something like:

"And I looked and behold, I saw that which is likened unto a great Eagle on the wing. And I saw the skin of the beast shining like unto the sun as it glints upon the great sea. It moved many times faster than even the fastest horse can gallop, and the noise it made as it moved was likened unto the howling of a thousand tormented souls..."

Point I'm making is this: The Angel is most certainly real. The weapon with which he is armed is outside of the vocabulary and ability to understand or describe by the people to whom he is writing.

Therefore, the best he can do is to describe it as a flaming sword.

Now the people to whom he was writing could immediately identify with the picture of a flaming sword, thus the point is driven home...it's really not something to be bothered over. ;)

Teke
May 7th 2009, 02:44 PM
Cherubim are God's ministers.

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Jeffinator
May 8th 2009, 05:37 AM
Here's a illustration that might help you out....

Let's suppose that a Jet Aircraft in flight is "time warped" to the year 1700, and is seen by someone of the time.

How do you think that they could describe such a thing using only the words and frame of reference of the time?

It might come out something like:

"And I looked and behold, I saw that which is likened unto a great Eagle on the wing. And I saw the skin of the beast shining like unto the sun as it glints upon the great sea. It moved many times faster than even the fastest horse can gallop, and the noise it made as it moved was likened unto the howling of a thousand tormented souls..."

Point I'm making is this: The Angel is most certainly real. The weapon with which he is armed is outside of the vocabulary and ability to understand or describe by the people to whom he is writing.

Therefore, the best he can do is to describe it as a flaming sword.

Now the people to whom he was writing could immediately identify with the picture of a flaming sword, thus the point is driven home...it's really not something to be bothered over. ;)

Interesting thanks

Biastai
May 8th 2009, 05:46 AM
I can't recall the writer, but he, and others probably as well, had mentioned this as being a description of lightning. Undoubtedly, it was a fearful time for Adam and Eve.

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