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Veretax
May 6th 2009, 01:20 PM
I was reading a transcript from the Glenn Beck Program, and something he said really jumped out at me. He was talking to a lady who was attending a baptist college, and apparently one of her professors believed that Capitalism was a sin, and socialism was the way to go. Transcript here (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/200/24918/)

Anyhow, in the midst of the conversation is this nugget that I'd like to share and get your guys point of view on.


GLENN: ..
Now, your professor can talk all he wants about how evil capitalism is, but ask your professor why Adam and Eve came down. Why, what was the whole thing about with the snake and the apple? What was that all about?
CALLER: Because they disobeyed God.
GLENN: Yeah, but what did that do? If Adam and Eve could ‑‑ if Adam and Eve didn't have the apple, they wouldn't have been fruitful and multiplied. Man would not be if it wasn't for that, okay? So what did they do? They ate the apple. Their eyes were opened. They saw the difference between good and evil, and the Lord drove them out of paradise and let them live this life where you've got to make choices and there's bad and there's good. We are here to make choices. You ask your professor, how am I supposed to be a good Christian, how am I supposed to better myself if all of my decisions are made for me by the state. If I can only eat these things, if I can only do these things, if I can only have this much money, if I'm forced to share, how does anyone grow spiritually? How do you become Gandhi if everything is decided for you? If this was the plan of salvation, if this is the plan of heaven, if this is God's plan, why didn't he just go with Lucifer's plan of just, I'll bring every soul back to you, God; you give the glory to me. I'll make sure. I'm not going to give them any choice. I'll bring everyone back. Jesus said, no, no, no, no; go down, let them have free will, let them have choice. But they are going to make so many mistakes, they are going to need a savior to come down and wash them clean. Now, if God didn't care about choice, if God was just like, you know what, just force them to do these things, it seems to me he would have gone with Lucifer's plan and not the other plan. Does that make sense to you?





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I've never really thought of it in those terms, and I'm not sure if its 100% biblical or not, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss, so what do you guys think? Do you think the fall, and man beint thrust out of Paradise, was really about choice? That it was really about having the ability to choose right from Wrong? And that God/Christ let it happen, knowing that a Savior would have to be sent in order that God himself would be glorified?


What do you guys think?

9Marksfan
May 6th 2009, 01:39 PM
I was reading a transcript from the Glenn Beck Program, and something he said really jumped out at me. He was talking to a lady who was attending a baptist college, and apparently one of her professors believed that Capitalism was a sin, and socialism was the way to go. Transcript here (http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/200/24918/)

Anyhow, in the midst of the conversation is this nugget that I'd like to share and get your guys point of view on.


GLENN: ..
Now, your professor can talk all he wants about how evil capitalism is, but ask your professor why Adam and Eve came down. Why, what was the whole thing about with the snake and the apple? What was that all about?
CALLER: Because they disobeyed God.
GLENN: Yeah, but what did that do? If Adam and Eve could ‑‑ if Adam and Eve didn't have the apple, they wouldn't have been fruitful and multiplied. Man would not be if it wasn't for that, okay? So what did they do? They ate the apple. Their eyes were opened. They saw the difference between good and evil, and the Lord drove them out of paradise and let them live this life where you've got to make choices and there's bad and there's good. We are here to make choices. You ask your professor, how am I supposed to be a good Christian, how am I supposed to better myself if all of my decisions are made for me by the state. If I can only eat these things, if I can only do these things, if I can only have this much money, if I'm forced to share, how does anyone grow spiritually? How do you become Gandhi if everything is decided for you? If this was the plan of salvation, if this is the plan of heaven, if this is God's plan, why didn't he just go with Lucifer's plan of just, I'll bring every soul back to you, God; you give the glory to me. I'll make sure. I'm not going to give them any choice. I'll bring everyone back. Jesus said, no, no, no, no; go down, let them have free will, let them have choice. But they are going to make so many mistakes, they are going to need a savior to come down and wash them clean. Now, if God didn't care about choice, if God was just like, you know what, just force them to do these things, it seems to me he would have gone with Lucifer's plan and not the other plan. Does that make sense to you?





....




I've never really thought of it in those terms, and I'm not sure if its 100% biblical or not,

The bit about eating the apple being the gateway to lust and sex is nonsense - that's what Mormons believe.


but I thought it might be interesting to discuss, so what do you guys think? Do you think the fall, and man beint thrust out of Paradise, was really about choice?

Yes.


That it was really about having the ability to choose right from Wrong? And that God/Christ let it happen, knowing that a Savior would have to be sent in order that God himself would be glorified?

Got it in a nutshell!


What do you guys think?

Christ is spoken of as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - therefore God KNEW that man would fall and need a Saviour - so Christ was as good as slain even before the world was made, even before the Fall - that the greatness of the glory of the grace of God might be seen in Him and that we may praise Him for it for all eternity: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain."

ZAB
May 6th 2009, 02:00 PM
Well, God the Father knew all along what would happen once He created man with a free will. Jesus is referred to as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). He was before ordained to die, and has only been revealed to us in these "last times" (1 Pet 1:19-20). Ephesians says, "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will... (1:4-5).
He foresaw the complexities that creating man would involve and made abundant provision for it (us). Jesus' death was the will of God.

Personally, I believe choice is a very important factor. Choice is what fascilitates sincerity. If we were forced to love God and serve Him, that wouldn't be very sincere now would it. However, man is given the opportunity to worship God in faith (having not seen Him personally), or to live for the temporal pleasures of sin. For us to choose Him in spite of what our carnality cries out for is love at it's highest. This is what God wanted: a partner for the ages (2 Cor 11:2) who would love him in spirit and in truth; one who, even when confronted with sinful passions, would yet choose to please their master.

Personally, I view Satan as a mere tool in the hand of God. God uses the dealings we all face in order to perfect us in love for Him. The Bible says that God has created the waster to destroy (Isa 54:16). Satan is on a leash (1 Pet 5:10). Jesus said that one has no authority except that which God has given him (Jn 19:11). Remember how Satan appeared before God in Job 1? God gave him permission to test Job. And why? To fascilitate a blessing (Job 42:12). He was more blessed in his latter end. Isaiah says, "I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness" (Isa 1:25-27).

theBelovedDisciple
May 6th 2009, 03:22 PM
Christ is spoken of as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - therefore God KNEW that man would fall and need a Saviour - so Christ was as good as slain even before the world was made, even before the Fall - that the greatness of the glory of the grace of God might be seen in Him and that we may praise Him for it for all eternity: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain."


Yep.. good post..

Teke
May 6th 2009, 08:46 PM
I've never really thought of it in those terms, and I'm not sure if its 100% biblical or not, but I thought it might be interesting to discuss, so what do you guys think? Do you think the fall, and man beint thrust out of Paradise, was really about choice? That it was really about having the ability to choose right from Wrong? And that God/Christ let it happen, knowing that a Savior would have to be sent in order that God himself would be glorified?


What do you guys think?

Part of being created in the image and likeness of God is having free will (freedom of choice).

What I disagree with is that God had to send Jesus because of what happened. Because that would put man in the position of being the one who caused God's plan to unfold the way it has.
I believe the Incarnation was always the plan from the beginning even if the fall hadn't occurred. Because the Incarnation is what joins mankind with God. Which is God's plan from the beginning when He created us.

The fall is secondary to the original plan. God overcomes evil in every form. So it's not as though the devil had us and God had to get us back.

divaD
May 6th 2009, 09:13 PM
Part of being created in the image and likeness of God is having free will (freedom of choice).

What I disagree with is that God had to send Jesus because of what happened. Because that would put man in the position of being the one who caused God's plan to unfold the way it has.
I believe the Incarnation was always the plan from the beginning even if the fall hadn't occurred. Because the Incarnation is what joins mankind with God. Which is God's plan from the beginning when He created us.

The fall is secondary to the original plan. God overcomes evil in every form. So it's not as though the devil had us and God had to get us back.



Can you back all of this with Scriptures? I don't ever recall seeing these conclusions in the Bible.

Teke
May 6th 2009, 09:22 PM
Can you back all of this with Scriptures? I don't ever recall seeing these conclusions in the Bible.

The scriptures are my back up.
Is the bible a book of conclusions?

I could ask you the same question. Why do you see scripture however you do?

But I will give a scripture to back this all up.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

It doesn't say, "For God so loved the fallen world". God is life, and to have eternal life you must have faith in God.

That it is God's plan to join mankind to Himself is evident from the Incarnation.

crossnote
May 7th 2009, 06:16 AM
Though I am conservative in a lot of my politics, I would not take my theology from a conservative talk show host. I find most of their theology is a mixing of the Two Kingdoms.

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