She was on the phone with a customer and he was using the gd word. She asked him very nice to please don't take the Lords name in vain. Well, the man reported her and she got fired! I told her I was proud of her for standing up for what she believed. I got fired for the same thing years ago. I told her that wasn't the job for her and God would lead her to a better one. I just wanted to share.

I would look in to suing. Her religious beliefs were offended and she stood up for what she believes in and she was fired for it. You can not fired some one for their religious beliefs it's called Discrimination

She was on the phone with a customer and he was using the gd word. She asked him very nice to please don't take the Lords name in vain. Well, the man reported her and she got fired! I told her I was proud of her for standing up for what she believed. I got fired for the same thing years ago. I told her that wasn't the job for her and God would lead her to a better one. I just wanted to share.

If I knew who she worked for, I would be sure NOT to trade with them.

Yea for your daughter! Yea for you in supporting her!

I received a bad 90 day review once for telling my supervisor that I was certain God could take care of me........

I wasn't fired, but I didn't get a decent raise either. Plus, a year later when I quit, I was not given a good reference when prospect employers called. I was told to have a "religious obsession that interrupted the workplace."

Well - AMEN!

I did finally find a good job. God always takes care of His children! :) :)

I would look in to suing. Her religious beliefs were offended and she stood up for what she believes in and she was fired for it. You can not fired some one for their religious beliefs it's called Discrimination

That all depends on company policy. If she has been instructed to keep religious beliefs out of her interactions with company clients, and keep it professional on her end and not make anything personal, and agreed to that, then she is responsible to uphold it. Which is why it's a good thing to find these things out before we run into situations like that so we don't create a conflict of interest for ourselves down the line that may cost us our job.

Hate to break it to you, but American business is secularized and you either accept that fact or you don't. When I'm in public relations then I've no right to correct a customer's conduct and make it personal unless they are a threat to me or themselves or somebody else, in which case you defer them to a supervisor/manager/law enforcement/higher up your chain of authority. If I take these things personally, then I probably have no business being in such a position and should reconsider my career choices because these scenarios are going to happen, especially when interacting with unbelievers on a consistent basis. That's reality.

When it comes to employment, as believers, we're all walking that line, all the time. But in the end, we have to keep professional separate from private matters. Which isn't a matter of going against our beliefs (unless we're being outrightly told to sin and then of course we would stand our ground, side with God and our conscience and take our lumps) and shouldn't be taken that way. We all have different levels of sensitivity though, and it's important that we know what those are and choose our employment accordingly (if we can, which I know is tough to do in certain economic circumstances).

I've always thought about this-how far do I go as a Christian talking about my faith while I'm at work?
I'm sure that would not be a great place to work if she got fired for one infraction after being there for 2 days. She's probably better off and will more then likely find a job more suited for her where she can be both productive and happy.

I would look in to suing. Her religious beliefs were offended and she stood up for what she believes in and she was fired for it. You can not fired some one for their religious beliefs it's called Discrimination

I wouldn't. It would be just another way for the secular MSM to point at Christians and say "See! They say "love thy neighbor" until their feelings get hurt and then sue just like the rest of us. Hypocrites!"

Why would we want to sue when it is not what God would want us to do? Does not the bible tell us not to sue?

Hooray fory your daughter and you! Praise the Lord. All glory to God. Only proves someone is doing what God wants them to do.

You go gurls!!

That all depends on company policy. If she has been instructed to keep religious beliefs out of her interactions with company clients, and keep it professional on her end and not make anything personal, and agreed to that, then she is responsible to uphold it. Which is why it's a good thing to find these things out before we run into situations like that so we don't create a conflict of interest for ourselves down the line that may cost us our job.

Hate to break it to you, but American business is secularized and you either accept that fact or you don't. When I'm in public relations then I've no right to correct a customer's conduct and make it personal unless they are a threat to me or themselves or somebody else, in which case you defer them to a supervisor/manager/law enforcement/higher up your chain of authority. If I take these things personally, then I probably have no business being in such a position and should reconsider my career choices because these scenarios are going to happen, especially when interacting with unbelievers on a consistent basis. That's reality.

When it comes to employment, as believers, we're all walking that line, all the time. But in the end, we have to keep professional separate from private matters. Which isn't a matter of going against our beliefs (unless we're being outrightly told to sin and then of course we would stand our ground, side with God and our conscience and take our lumps) and shouldn't be taken that way. We all have different levels of sensitivity though, and it's important that we know what those are and choose our employment accordingly (if we can, which I know is tough to do in certain economic circumstances).

I believe it is the same in Canada. You're fine in believing what you believe, but we're not to bring it to the workplace, nor are we allowed to let it "disrupt" our professionalism. Evangalism is also a big no-no in the work place.

It never crossed her mind to sue. She was talking to the man and he was rude and just kept saying that word several times and she said it just got to her and she couldn't keep her mouth shut and I'm proud of her for what she did. You know sometimes you need to say "I don't care what the rules are in this job, I'm not going to sit here and listen to some jerk use my Lords name in vain and not say something"! God will find you another job and it will be better than the one you lost.

One more thing. I think now days too many people are afraid to say what they think about their religious beliefs cause they are afraid they might offend someone.

One more thing. I think now days too many people are afraid to say what they think about their religious beliefs cause they are afraid they might offend someone.

Not necessarily. I've quit a job because a manager asked me to straight up lie and I couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, and told her as much. It cost me my job. But, God honored that and provided another. It all depends where our personal lines of demarcation lie. I don't get offended easily and if a customer wants to swear around me, then that's between them and God and whoever else. I'm there to help them and do the job I'm paid to do, not to correct their manners. But, that's my personal opinion. If your daughter thought it necessary to stand up for herself and her personal beliefs and sensitivities, then more power to her. I'm not faulting her, just providing another angle on things because we all have to follow our conscience and personal conviction and stand before God at the end of the day and answer for ourselves, and the line is different for each of us.

I don't think any one should have to put up with any kind of cussing, whether it uses the Lord's Name in vain or not. I have heard Christians say the most nasty, vile, hateful things and never use a cuss word. Employees simply shouldn't have to put up with any kind of nasty language at all..whether they are Christian or not actually.

It never crossed her mind to sue. She was talking to the man and he was rude and just kept saying that word several times and she said it just got to her and she couldn't keep her mouth shut and I'm proud of her for what she did. You know sometimes you need to say "I don't care what the rules are in this job, I'm not going to sit here and listen to some jerk use my Lords name in vain and not say something"! God will find you another job and it will be better than the one you lost.

Thank God some are still willing to protest about our God's name being used in vain. May the Lord bless her for her boldness and rain down blessings on her and you. Most people who know if you are sold out for the Lord will be polite enough not to curse. At least, that's been my experience. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. God knows our heart!!!! It's bad enough that "God" is being taken out of all public places, trying to be taken off of our money....goodness, what's next. I already know....one day, hopefully I'll be with the Lord, Christians will not be able to worship in public, either....just like the other countries of the world. We will be martyred, as well. Why? Cause we as Christians have sat back too long, being complacent and not protesting, not contacting our senators and representatives about these issues. Not opening our mouths about the important thing in life....God...So, now look where we are!!!

I would like to think I would have done the same thing, but don't know for sure.
I think the customer was the one that brought religion in by using God's name in vain.
I believe she did the right thing regardless, the company didn't sound easy to work for and certainly not forgiving.

Hey Peacewithin... yay for your daughter. And I wonder if we could find out who this company were? I think it would be fair to boycott it.

She was on the phone with a customer and he was using the gd word. She asked him very nice to please don't take the Lords name in vain. Well, the man reported her and she got fired! I told her I was proud of her for standing up for what she believed. I got fired for the same thing years ago. I told her that wasn't the job for her and God would lead her to a better one. I just wanted to share.

Good for your daughter! She came up for Jesus when it matters.

I would rather bless her ex employer than sue or boycott them. Then she will take her testimony to a new realm at that employer. They will see it is all about God, and not about her!

God bless you and your daughter,
Anton

Hey Peacewithin... yay for your daughter. And I wonder if we could find out who this company were? I think it would be fair to boycott it.
You know it really makes me want to broadcast who this company is but I think they are hurting themselves by being the way they are and in the long run will probably bring down the company anyway.

Hate to break it to you, but American business is secularized and you either accept that fact or you don't. When I'm in public relations then I've no right to correct a customer's conduct and make it personal unless they are a threat to me or themselves or somebody else, in which case you defer them to a supervisor/manager/law enforcement/higher up your chain of authority.

Amen. When dealing with a customer, we can ask them to be professional, but to make a point about not using God's name in vain is not the correct response, IMO.

Amen. When dealing with a customer, we can ask them to be professional, but to make a point about not using God's name in vain is not the correct response, IMO.

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You know one thing I love about this board, we can discuss our point of view without anyone getting mad!
Thank you all for your input!:hug:
Beverly

Working in public relations myself I hear this all the time (every day, in fact) and more. The only time I've ever commented on anyone's conduct is when it became personal, other than that, though, they can do pretty much and say pretty much whatever they want. That's the nature of the business. I never did understand all this getting offended on behalf of God...

She was on the phone with a customer and he was using the gd word. She asked him very nice to please don't take the Lords name in vain. Well, the man reported her and she got fired! I told her I was proud of her for standing up for what she believed. I got fired for the same thing years ago. I told her that wasn't the job for her and God would lead her to a better one. I just wanted to share.

Praise God! If the business condones that sort of thing it's better to leave anyhow!

The thing that you have to keep in mind is that she was being paid to represent the company. By taking a religious stance on the phone with a customer, she projected that religious stance onto the company, which was something I'm sure that company did not appreciate. Not the wisest move IMO unless you hold telling someone not to use the Lords name in vain above employment.

The thing that you have to keep in mind is that she was being paid to represent the company. By taking a religious stance on the phone with a customer, she projected that religious stance onto the company, which was something I'm sure that company did not appreciate. Not the wisest move IMO unless you hold telling someone not to use the Lords name in vain above employment.
Actually I do, but that's my opinion.

Working in public relations myself I hear this all the time (every day, in fact) and more. The only time I've ever commented on anyone's conduct is when it became personal, other than that, though, they can do pretty much and say pretty much whatever they want. That's the nature of the business. I never did understand all this getting offended on behalf of God...
When someone uses the Lords name in vain or says something against God, I'm sorry but yes I get very offended. I'm not going to just sit there and listen to it. I don't understand you even saying that.

When someone uses the Lords name in vain or says something against God, I'm sorry but yes I get very offended. I'm not going to just sit there and listen to it. I don't understand you even saying that.

Well sure, I would get offended (not easily, though). However, whereas if I'm working in public relations I can ask people to be mature, responsible, professional, civil, etc. It's not my place to tell them to stop anything unless it becomes personal. They aren't Christian, I highly doubt they care what profanity they're using. There is a difference, by the way, between being offended by something and being offended on behalf of God. It was a general comment unrelated to your daughter.

Well sure, I would get offended (not easily, though). However, whereas if I'm working in public relations I can ask people to be mature, responsible, professional, civil, etc. It's not my place to tell them to stop anything unless it becomes personal. They aren't Christian, I highly doubt they care what profanity they're using. There is a difference, by the way, between being offended by something and being offended on behalf of God. It was a general comment unrelated to your daughter.
I'm sorry if I got my feathers ruffled, sometimes I get very defensive and don't word things very good.:)

... unless you hold telling someone not to use the Lords name in vain above employment.

Where does God tell us to tell people not to use his name in vain? He simply commands it but he doesn't tell us to go around policing it. Better to let the Holy Spirit move and to keep quiet until we can move in power and speak truth to the heart of the sinner. Sinners sin. To try and stop them from sinning without a change of heart is defiled religion.

When someone uses the Lords name in vain or says something against God, I'm sorry but yes I get very offended. I'm not going to just sit there and listen to it. I don't understand you even saying that.

When they crucified Jesus, and denied his name, and mocked Him, and laughed at him, Jesus just took it. He wasn't offended in the least. There is a time and place for teaching.

I don't think every Christian should "police" how others speak. But
I think Peacewithin's daughter acted according to her conscience - not that everyone should act as she did, but if she was convicted to say something, then she surely did the right thing. Remember Scripture says "who are you to judge another man's servant." Well, maybe she had to say something in that situation, because God plans on using it.


It's obvious that what she said pricked someone's conscience... the guy who reported her. We don't know how this will play out in eternity. Maybe at some point he'll realise that he's the one bringing God into every conversation, and wonder why that is. He might never have noticed if someone hadn't mentioned it to him. I was once very offended by a Christian, so much so that if I could have done I'd have hit him. I still think that confrontation was one of the nudges God used to bring me to Him.

I don't think that everyone should challenge blasphemy at every opportunity (you'd never have time for anything else) and Brother Mark's example from Jesus' crucifixion is very pertinent. But I do think that the young woman acted according to her conscience here, and that God can honour that little act of obedience in ways we can't know.

I think it's great that your daughter would rather lose her job than to tolerate blasphemy. The customer was an obvious troublemaker for not only using the Lord's name the wrong way, but for being a rat as well. No sin goes unpunished and the fact that the customer is so miserable is proof of that.

I think it's great that your daughter would rather lose her job than to tolerate blasphemy. The customer was an obvious troublemaker for not only using the Lord's name the wrong way, but for being a rat as well. No sin goes unpunished and the fact that the customer is so miserable is proof of that.

Actually this isn't blasphemy...but it is breaking one of the Ten Commandments. I still think employees, regardless of their beliefs, shouldn't have to put up with that kind of talk..

I used to manage a call center for AAA in Ca. There have been a few members who were directed to me because they were cursing at one of my costumer service workers, and when they get to me, they are worse because usually they have to wait a few minutes to get to a manager, and some of them have said, g** d*** it, and j**** c*****. First off, I don't get offended, they are living in darkness and I know the truth, secondly, I was hired to do a job and that is to provide the best service to the costumer, correcting them because of my religious beliefs, I was not allowed to do because of the contract I signed when I started the job, furthermore it would not do any good because like I said, they are living in darkness and there is a time and place for correction, what worked the best in every case, was a kind word, thats what the bible says anyway.

Oh and not only did those customers decide to stay members they apologized afterwards as well and they don't become repeat offenders.

I think it's good to stand up for what you belive in but I also believe that a little tact goes a loooong way. :idea:

It never crossed her mind to sue. She was talking to the man and he was rude and just kept saying that word several times and she said it just got to her and she couldn't keep her mouth shut and I'm proud of her for what she did. You know sometimes you need to say "I don't care what the rules are in this job, I'm not going to sit here and listen to some jerk use my Lords name in vain and not say something"! God will find you another job and it will be better than the one you lost.

Amen!! If the customer (and her boss) could not respect the fact that using God's name in vain upset and offended her, she is better off not working there at all. :pray: May God open the doors to the right job for her.

God bless.

I don't think every Christian should "police" how others speak. But
I think Peacewithin's daughter acted according to her conscience - not that everyone should act as she did, but if she was convicted to say something, then she surely did the right thing. Remember Scripture says "who are you to judge another man's servant." Well, maybe she had to say something in that situation, because God plans on using it.

Indeed. Sometimes we are to say something because God tells us to. However, if we think it is something we are almost always to say, then we are thinking incorrectly. I don't see anywhere in scripture where the apostles or disciples made a habit of correcting the behavior of unbelievers at each sin they committed.

When God tells us to speak, we need to speak! In that, we agree for sure.

Righteousness is associated throughout scriptures as hating what God hates.
Jesus was repeatedly angered by the sin and unbelief of the people of this world.

Should be like Him?

Eph 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

We tolerate too much. The scriptures are not big on tolerating sin.

Was Jesus still love when He was angry?
Can God still be loving and peaceful and gentle and angry at the same time?

Are we to be angry and speak out against all sorts of sin?
The bible say to be angry.

But I think most people are two cowardly to speak out against sin in their public personal lives.
What does the bible say of the cowardly?
It says they are unbelievers and bound for hell.

Most don't get it right in action, but God looks on our hearts.
We should live boldly in the face of fear, and with unrestrained hearts regarding the things of God.

Indeed. Sometimes we are to say something because God tells us to. However, if we think it is something we are almost always to say, then we are thinking incorrectly. I don't see anywhere in scripture where the apostles or disciples made a habit of correcting the behavior of unbelievers at each sin they committed.

When God tells us to speak, we need to speak! In that, we agree for sure.
True bro Jesus never went out looking to rebuke unbelievers, rather when they came to Him with what is false then He rebuked them.

Guys, this isn't a clear-cut, black and white issue.

Legally, she has no ground to sue. The company policy is what it is. That doesn't mean, however, that she has to follow it if it violates her conscience.

If it offends her for people to take God's name in vain, then she did the right thing in asking the customer not to do it. There's nothing wrong in doing what she did.

Some of us are more sensitive than others about different things. I used to do full time outreach to gang members (13-17, the "soldiers"); now I reach out to militant atheists and I'm the night manager at a food delivery service, so it's safe to say any sensitivity I ever had prior to all those experiences is gone. If a customer was saying that to me on the phone, I probably wouldn't have noticed.

But that's me. If anything, maybe I should be ashamed that I wouldn't notice or that if I did, I wouldn't say anything about it.

Even if we think she shouldn't have stood up on this issue, with so few Christians standing up for God (myself included) with their words and actions, I guess I'll take what I can get...

I could have sworn that G plus beaver wall was blasphemy. I truly believe the beaver wall takes it beyond simply using his name in vain.

Guys, this isn't a clear-cut, black and white issue.

Legally, she has no ground to sue. The company policy is what it is. That doesn't mean, however, that she has to follow it if it violates her conscience.

If it offends her for people to take God's name in vain, then she did the right thing in asking the customer not to do it. There's nothing wrong in doing what she did.


I think it could have been wrong if God wasn't prompting her to say it. Is it Christian to go around and hold people to the same standards that we ourselves hold on a personal level? What about Romans 14 and 15? If we are to give up our freedom for the weaker brother, what does it say for the lost? How did Jesus deal with those that went around rebuking people for their sin? Should I rebuke someone that lies when I hear them telling a lie? Am I their authority?

Better, IMO, to not be so offensive so as to be able to speak what God says to speak. Show me in the word where we are to tell the world not to behave as lost people and I'll repent. ;)


Some of us are more sensitive than others about different things. I used to do full time outreach to gang members (13-17, the "soldiers"); now I reach out to militant atheists and I'm the night manager at a food delivery service, so it's safe to say any sensitivity I ever had prior to all those experiences is gone. If a customer was saying that to me on the phone, I probably wouldn't have noticed.Yep. People are people. When you get down and dirty with them, you realize it's not so much the action that is the issue, it's the heart. Want the action to change, then the heart has to change.


But that's me. If anything, maybe I should be ashamed that I wouldn't notice or that if I did, I wouldn't say anything about it.Did Jesus rebuke every fault he saw? Heck no. Neither should we.


Even if we think she shouldn't have stood up on this issue, with so few Christians standing up for God (myself included) with their words and actions, I guess I'll take what I can get...Why do we feel the need to stand up for God? Better to listen to Him and when he says speak, then we speak. If God says "Rebuke them" then we should. But to just willy nilly rebuke everyone that uses God's name in vain... I don't think that is the best way to go about it. Better to get past our offenses and begin to see someone who Jesus died for. In time, perhaps they can be saved. Listen to God, and do as he says. Then we offend when God offends and not before.

Righteousness is associated throughout scriptures as hating what God hates.
Jesus was repeatedly angered by the sin and unbelief of the people of this world.

Should be like Him?

Eph 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather[/URL] expose them.

We tolerate too much. The scriptures are not big on tolerating sin.

Was Jesus still love when He was angry?
Can God still be loving and peaceful and gentle and angry at the same time?

Are we to be angry and speak out against all sorts of sin?
The bible say to be angry.

But I think most people are two cowardly to speak out against sin in their public personal lives.
What does the bible say of the cowardly?
It says they are unbelievers and bound for hell.

Most don't get it right in action, but God looks on our hearts.
We should live boldly in the face of fear, and with unrestrained hearts regarding the things of God.

Eph 5 is talking about believers..the only people we can judge!* If we see other believers involved in terrible things, yes we are to expose it..expose the false teachings too....and the bible does not say to be angry...I mean even in first part of Ephesians it says this:

Ephesians 5
Walk in Love
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

The times Jesus was angry was AT the Jews! The believers! The two times He was angry was once in the temple..and when He seriously rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23. He got pretty irritated at His own disciples a few times and with the Pharisees and Scribes alot but that was it. You make it sound like He was going around angrily getting after unbelievers all the time when He wasn't. In fact He was constantly inviting them to eat meals with Him which the Pharisees got all upset about.

On the verse about being angry..it says this: Ephesians 4: 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

There is a place for what is called righteous anger sure, which we can do, BUT it follows with a warning..it has to be resolved quickly otherwise it gives the devil a foothold in our lives. If we are constantly angry, first we aren't good witness for Christ..we are just seen as angry people..and who wants to become a Christian to go around being angry all the time? Where is the peace and joy Christ promised if we are like that? There have been many good bible studies done on this...doing a search on the net would show many good ones. If our anger gets out of control..is rage..it leads to sin which is not a good thing at all. Jesus' anger was always short lived. He didn't walk around in a constant state of anger over the sin in the world...after all, He came to save the world from being enslaved to sin in the first place!

Are you talking about this verse in regards to the cowards?:
Revelation 21:8 New Living Translation
“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8 (King James Version)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[URL="http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=021"]Adam Clark bible commentary (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n15)
Verse 8. But the fearful
δειλοις Those who, for fear of losing life or their property, either refused to receive the Christian religion, though convinced of its truth and importance; or, having received it, in times of persecution fell away, not being willing to risk their lives.

We are to be bold in sharing the gospel sure..but there is nothing in the bible about forcing our way of living on to others. I do think an employer has the right to demand his customers behave in a certain way..its no different then stores having a sign that says, no shoes, no shirt, no service. And many have a notice saying they have the right to refuse service to anyone. If someone went into the grocery store here and was yelling and cussing, they would be asked to leave...if they didn't the police would be called because their manner of behavior would be taken as threatening. So in this way I think an employer should protect their employee from certain things...no customer has the right to verbally abuse employees...certain social politeness is expected in businesses. This is different then trying to make others live like we do though.

The only people I read about in the bible Jesus rebuking were those that claimed to be believers...the Jews. Not the unbelievers.

Should we really expect unbelievers to behave as if they were believers without the Holy Spirit in them? Is that possible without the Holy Spirit? To some extent...but honestly would we want muslims telling Christian women they aren't covered enough and are sinning? That the men are also not dressed right and get after us for not praying five times a day? They could easily say what you just said, they are just being bold and standing up for their faith. I don't think too many of us would feel they had the right to do this actually.


Skipscan I could have sworn that G plus beaver wall was blasphemy. I truly believe the beaver wall takes it beyond simply using his name in vain.

The Ten Commandments does say, thou shall not take thy Lord thy God's Name in Vain. But this isn't what Jesus said was blasphemy.

Matthew 12

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Adam Clark's bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=012)
But the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
Even personal reproaches, revilings, persecutions against Christ, were remissible; but blasphemy, or impious speaking against the Holy Spirit was to have no forgiveness: i.e. when the person obstinately attributed those works to the devil, which he had the fullest evidence could be wrought only by the Spirit of God. That this, and nothing else, is the sin against the Holy Spirit, is evident from the connection in this place, and more particularly from Mark 3:28-30. "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme; but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation; BECAUSE they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt-the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ wrought, by the power of God, to the spirit of the devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the Divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man's heart fail because of it, from henceforth and for ever, Amen.

********************
The Jews considered Jesus declaring Himself the Son of God to be blasphemy too by the way. We tend to point at alot of things and call it blasphemy when it really isn't...it just seems SO bad. There have been people come on here that said the GD word before they became Christians that think they can't be saved thinking its the unforgivable sin..but its not.
************************************************** ********************
*1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.

God bless

I wonder why we remain surprised at, or offended by, sinners acting like sinners ... :hmm:

Moonglow, what you are saying is right and Scriptural, of course - we are not to judge those outside the Body of Christ.

At the same time, we can say that we find it offensive when someone takes God's Name in vain (we're not judging them, but informing them - there's a huge difference). If I have a habit of using 'Allah' as a cuss word and a Muslim asks me not to do so in his presence, I will respect and heed his objection. I will stand corrected, but not feel myself judged.

We have to shine God's Light to a dying world out there, and though it is not our duty to be judgmental to outsiders, we don't have to stand meekly and idly by whilst they revile God. (Another example: if non-Christians promote abortions, should Christians keep quiet?)

I personally can't stand listening to anybody abusing God's name, and yes, most of the time I don't say anything, but it really depends on the situation and what God lays on one's heart at that moment.

I believe it is time for Christians to stand up for what we believe in - to live what we preach, and to teach and show those in the world what Christ is all about.

The time for keeping silent and stand hat in hand being apologetic for being a Christian, and scared that people would call us judgmental and legalistic is over. We don't have too much time left.

Moonglow, what you are saying is right and Scriptural, of course - we are not to judge those outside the Body of Christ.

At the same time, we can say that we find it offensive when someone takes God's Name in vain (we're not judging them, but informing them - there's a huge difference). If I have a habit of using 'Allah' as a cuss word and a Muslim asks me not to do so in his presence, I will respect and heed his objection. I will stand corrected, but not feel myself judged.

We have to shine God's Light to a dying world out there, and though it is not our duty to be judgmental to outsiders, we don't have to stand meekly and idly by whilst they revile God. (Another example: if non-Christians promote abortions, should Christians keep quiet?)

I personally can't stand listening to anybody abusing God's name, and yes, most of the time I don't say anything, but it really depends on the situation and what God lays on one's heart at that moment.

I believe it is time for Christians to stand up for what we believe in - to live what we preach, and to teach and show those in the world what Christ is all about.

The time for keeping silent and stand hat in hand being apologetic for being a Christian, and scared that people would call us judgmental and legalistic is over. We don't have too much time left.

I understand ..and this is where people can easily get confused as to what to do on certain situations. Truly studying the bible and its examples on how Jesus, the disciples, Paul who was out in the trenches among nonbelievers handled certain situations would help alot. What we don't realize many times is just how truly awful the Roman government was. They ruled over all that towns, cities and lands with terrorism. They invented the crucifixion to keep people inline. Since they worshiped many gods they really didn't care what others did, so allowed the Jews to continue on worshiping their one God. (on an interesting note..the Hindus worship many gods and also don't care what others have in the way of religions ..its very hard to witness to them too because of this, 'I don't care' attitude they have)

The Roman's oppressed the Jews horribly..taxed them into poverty and were pretty ruthless with them, Yet Jesus never said lets go protest them..lets make up signs and walk around protesting their treatment of us. They openly killed new born babies and young children in worship to their pagan gods. Nero a ruler in Paul's time, publically married a slave boy after having him castrated. (Nero had kicked his pregnant wife to death and had his own mother killed) he is the one that went after the Christians and fed them to the lions...and killed at least three of Jesus' disciples...including Paul.

Yet we don't read one word of Paul or the others protesting how they are being treated or how evil they were directly. They do address the over all evil in the world, of course. They don't boycott anyone, they didn't stand around in these cities praying about what these were doing to change their ways. Most of Paul's letters instead were to encourage the believers while they were going through these terrible persecutions. Jesus prays for us to endure in a fallen world. We wouldn't know half of what they were really going through if it wasn't for the historical documents that told us.

Yet every single one of them stayed focused on one thing...preaching the gospel. That is how Rome finally fell. Not through protest of their wickedness, or through war, but through changing one heart at a time. If we spend all our time doing that instead of all this other stuff we do...trying to force the lost to live the way we think is right which they can't possibly understand without the Holy Spirit, we probably could have stopped abortion years ago, among other things.

Its difficult to stand outside an abortion clinic telling them they are murdering their babies when we have Christians in our own churches getting abortions too. We need to clean up our own house first before we can be that light shinning on a hill..

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

God bless

I don't think that she was judging the guy for taking God's name in vain... she was simply asking that he not do so. That should be within her rights. If, for example, he'd been making sexist or racist jokes, she would have been within her rights to ask him to refrain. Likewise, he was being disparaging to her God... she does have the right to ask him to refrain.

When I was growing up, most Irish folks never complained about the anti Irish jokes in England, but they did make us uncomfortable. It was the few who complained who made a difference. You don't hear those jokes anymore.

Perhaps this young woman was called to say something. It will be a while before the world stops despising His name... but the time will come. And I'm sure that those who stood against have done a good thing.

If we spend all our time doing that instead of all this other stuff we do...trying to force the lost to live the way we think is right which they can't possibly understand without the Holy Spirit, we probably could have stopped abortion years ago, among other things.

Its difficult to stand outside an abortion clinic telling them they are murdering their babies when we have Christians in our own churches getting abortions too. We need to clean up our own house first before we can be that light shinning on a hill..

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

God bless

I can't see how objecting to somebody using God's Name in vain is trying to force them to do anything - it is a simple, decent request. Of course they can choose to ignore it (but that's just plain bad manners in my book).

Yes, unfortunately there are so-called 'Christians' in the Church having abortions - and they will always be there. Remember, not everybody in the Church is a true believer. Satan also plants people in the church for this very reason - to give Christians a bad name. Anyway, if we wait for all the non-believers to leave the Church before we can shine God's Light, we will never do it.

As I stated before, we need to practice what we preach, stand up for what we believe in, and shine Christ's Light to a dying world.

Bravo to those who have the guts to say 'Please don't take God's Name in vain in my presence - He is Holy, and I love Him'.

I can't see how objecting to somebody using God's Name in vain is trying to force them to do anything - it is a simple, decent request. Of course they can choose to ignore it (but that's just plain bad manners in my book).

Yes, unfortunately there are so-called 'Christians' in the Church having abortions - and they will always be there. Remember, not everybody in the Church is a true believer. Satan also plants people in the church for this very reason - to give Christians a bad name. Anyway, if we wait for all the non-believers to leave the Church before we can shine God's Light, we will never do it.

As I stated before, we need to practice what we preach, stand up for what we believe in, and shine Christ's Light to a dying world.

Bravo to those who have the guts to say 'Please don't take God's Name in vain in my presence - He is Holy, and I love Him'.

I never said she shouldn't have said anything.I never said this would force her beliefs on others..sorry about the confusion. I think she should have or forward this person to her supervisor. I have said several times on here that I don't think any employee, regardless of their beliefs, should have to put up with that. So I agree with you.

Those in the church having abortions many times aren't nonbelievers though..they made a mistake and got pregnant and due to the shame it could cause them in church, they have an abortion..or their husbands force them too, or their parents,...the list of reasons is long and different for each person actually. The church needs to instead, not be so harsh towards its own members in certain situations, so a young woman feels pressured to do this..that a women that made a mistake can feel safe in going and confessing that and asking for support, instead of feeling she has to hide her mistake by having an abortion...and a wife and husband given the guidance and support so they don't feel they have no choice. We need to forgive each other as Christ has forgiven us. There are times to be firm with certain members, those are clearly listed in the bible...but many times compassion towards our own, goes a long ways.

God bless

Those in the church having abortions many times aren't nonbelievers though..they made a mistake and got pregnant and due to the shame it could cause them in church, they have an abortion..or their husbands force them too, or their parents,...the list of reasons is long and different for each person actually. The church needs to instead, not be so harsh towards its own members in certain situations, so a young woman feels pressured to do this..that a women that made a mistake can feel safe in going and confessing that and asking for support, instead of feeling she has to hide her mistake by having an abortion...and a wife and husband given the guidance and support so they don't feel they have no choice. We need to forgive each other as Christ has forgiven us. There are times to be firm with certain members, those are clearly listed in the bible...but many times compassion towards our own, goes a long ways.

God bless

Yes, I agree - in the case of somebody making a mistake (and we all do), forgiveness is the only answer. I must admit that I have never been in a church/congregation where women were made to feel that abortion would be preferable to 'facing the music', so to speak. As a matter of fact, whenever this has happened such a young woman was counselled in love and truth, and it usually had a Godly outcome (marriage).

I have not yet met a true Christian who has had an abortion (after becoming a Christian). I have met quite a few who had abortions prior to becoming Christians, but that is another matter. Personally, I think a true reborn Christian would find it very difficult to go ahead with an abortion - no matter what pressure she is under.

Anyway, we are getting off topic here - sorry :P (maybe we should open another thread to discuss this with other members?). I would be very interested in hearing their opinion on this issue.

God bless.

Yes, I agree - in the case of somebody making a mistake (and we all do), forgiveness is the only answer. I must admit that I have never been in a church/congregation where women were made to feel that abortion would be preferable to 'facing the music', so to speak. As a matter of fact, whenever this has happened such a young woman was counselled in love and truth, and it usually had a Godly outcome (marriage).

I have not yet met a true Christian who has had an abortion (after becoming a Christian). I have met quite a few who had abortions prior to becoming Christians, but that is another matter. Personally, I think a true reborn Christian would find it very difficult to go ahead with an abortion - no matter what pressure she is under.

Anyway, we are getting off topic here - sorry :P (maybe we should open another thread to discuss this with other members?). I would be very interested in hearing their opinion on this issue.

God bless.

You could if you wanted too...start another thread but I don't know how many would feel comfortable admitting this over fear of being judged and berated. They feel bad enough. We did talk about this on the open board a few years ago and I was pretty surprised at how many had abortions...most it due to some seriously medical issues either with the baby or themselves...but there were some that did so because they were too ashamed to go to church and start 'showing' and some because of their unbelieving husbands. And those that were very young and told 'it was just tissue' by those working at those family planning clinics. :( They carry a huge amount of grief and guilt over this.

Anyway yea, we got off topic...(if you notice when people are just casually talking to each other in real life...they never stay on topic either...:lol:)

God bless

The phrase "don't expect an unbeliever to act like a believer" is probably a good one here. I have used the phrase OMG 2 times in my life. It was blatent to see if I would get struck by lightning when I was in middle school. haha. I felt awful for hurting God by my remark and didn't do it again.
seriously, if someone claims to be a born again believer and they say this around me I simply ask them if they know what the Bible says about God's name. That it is to be used in a holy way. If they don't care, it becomes pearl before swine. If they are a non believer I just b sure to keep my words clean as usual, and I can't find Scripture to reprimand them unless my children are present and then I ask them to keep it clean for a family environment as I am to protect my children from the world. If it gets out of control with other cussing, I simply ask the person to keep it clean it is a business environment or on the street the new phrase is "will you edit that please?"

Bravo to those who have the guts to say 'Please don't take God's Name in vain in my presence - He is Holy, and I love Him'.

Sounds religious to me. It's expecting the world to live holy and Godly when they are not. Now, if God personally tells someone at a particular time to respond in kind, then we should do so. But scripture nowhere, that I am aware of, encourages such behavior as a matter of course. I'm not saying we have to like it when someone sins. What I am saying, is that we need to be careful about rebuking such sin in a personal setting unless directed by God to do so.

God really doesn't need to be defended in that sense. He showed the course of action he encourages us to take with Christ. Christ stood up to the religious crowd. He preached to the multitude. He ministered to the individuals. I can't find anywhere that he personally told a gentile not to use God's name in vain.

Sounds religious to me. It's expecting the world to live holy and Godly when they are not. Now, if God personally tells someone at a particular time to respond in kind, then we should do so. But scripture nowhere, that I am aware of, encourages such behavior as a matter of course. I'm not saying we have to like it when someone sins. What I am saying, is that we need to be careful about rebuking such sin in a personal setting unless directed by God to do so.

God really doesn't need to be defended in that sense. He showed the course of action he encourages us to take with Christ. Christ stood up to the religious crowd. He preached to the multitude. He ministered to the individuals. I can't find anywhere that he personally told a gentile not to use God's name in vain.

Hi Brother Mark - if you read my previous posts you'd see that my remark is not 'religious'. If people want to be rude, that's their business, but I personally feel that it is fine to ask someone (depending on the circumstances - as I've mentioned before) not to use God's Name in vain in my presence.

You're right, though: nowhere in the Bible are we told we should do so, and of course it is useless to expect non-Christians to uphold God's laws, etc. But then again, neither does the Bible mention whether a Christian who committed suicide will go to heaven or not. So, I'm thinking: maybe, just maybe, it might get someone thinking if they are requested (in love, of course), not to use God's Name as a cuss word. (Grey areas / grey areas...)

I'm a teacher, and most of my students see nothing wrong with saying 'OMG' - often (they're mostly non-Christian). They hear it on TV and think it's 'cool'. I always ask them not to do so; explain to them why I say so, and many of them stop doing it.

(PS: I want to add that I've heard some (mostly US) Christians saying 'OMG' in common speech - this was a no-no in the culture I grew up in, and I couldn't (still can't) understand how they can do it.)

I think it could have been wrong if God wasn't prompting her to say it. Is it Christian to go around and hold people to the same standards that we ourselves hold on a personal level? What about Romans 14 and 15? If we are to give up our freedom for the weaker brother, what does it say for the lost? How did Jesus deal with those that went around rebuking people for their sin? Should I rebuke someone that lies when I hear them telling a lie? Am I their authority?

Better, IMO, to not be so offensive so as to be able to speak what God says to speak. Show me in the word where we are to tell the world not to behave as lost people and I'll repent. ;)

Yep. People are people. When you get down and dirty with them, you realize it's not so much the action that is the issue, it's the heart. Want the action to change, then the heart has to change.

Did Jesus rebuke every fault he saw? Heck no. Neither should we.

Why do we feel the need to stand up for God? Better to listen to Him and when he says speak, then we speak. If God says "Rebuke them" then we should. But to just willy nilly rebuke everyone that uses God's name in vain... I don't think that is the best way to go about it. Better to get past our offenses and begin to see someone who Jesus died for. In time, perhaps they can be saved. Listen to God, and do as he says. Then we offend when God offends and not before.

I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. Notice how the nations surrounding Israel were still held accountable for basic moral faults, including blasphemy against God. So it seems that on some level there is an expected amount of decency, even from those who aren't Christians.

Regardless, for me it wouldn't have been a huge deal. I expect such things. But for others, it might be. It is a cultural issue. As Daughter brought up, had he been insulting her for being a woman and she stood up for herself, this wouldn't be an issue.

Eph 5 is talking about believers..the only people we can judge!
Actually no.
The context is clearly speaking of the sons of disobedience, not the believers.

5:6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 9 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n9) 5:7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 10 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n10) 5:8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are 11 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n11) light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light – 5:9 for the fruit of the light 12 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n12) consists in 13 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n13) all goodness, righteousness, and truth – 5:10 trying to learn 14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n14) what is pleasing to the Lord. 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather 15 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n15) expose them. 16 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n16) 5:12 For the things they do 17 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n17) in secret are shameful even to mention. 5:13 But all things being exposed by the light are made evident. 5:14 For everything made evident is light, and for this reason it says: 18 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n18)


So we are back to exposing them, calling sin sin without shrinking back in fear.

I never said go looking for this, or make it your job.
But like Jesus when it came His way He did not shrink back.

If you read your whole bible you find God is always angry at sin.
As we should always be angry at it when we encounter it.
If we love, we should expose it and move on.



* If we see other believers involved in terrible things, yes we are to expose it..expose the false teachings too....and the bible does not say to be angry...
You quoted the verse your self.
Ephesians 4: 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

If you are not angry at sin, you are not acting like God.




I mean even in first part of Ephesians it says this:

Ephesians 5
Walk in Love
1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

You assume that love does not result in anger.

Some people do not like the fact that our God who is love, hates and gets angry. But not understanding that is not understanding the cross.


The times Jesus was angry was AT the Jews! The believers!
What in your mind qualifies all the Jews as believers?
Clearly many where unbelievers based on Jesus statements; calling some a brood of vipers other children of their father the devil.


The two times He was angry was once in the temple..and when He seriously rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23. He got pretty irritated at His own disciples a few times and with the Pharisees and Scribes alot but that was it. You make it sound like He was going around angrily getting after unbelievers all the time when He wasn't. In fact He was constantly inviting them to eat meals with Him which the Pharisees got all upset about.
How do I make it sound like that when I never said any such thing?

I made two statements
Righteousness is associated throughout scriptures as hating what God hates.
Jesus was repeatedly angered by the sin and unbelief of the people of this world.
Both of which are true.

So what is the real issue you are having?
You don't want a Jesus who gets angry over our sin?



On the verse about being angry..it says this:

There is a place for what is called righteous anger sure, which we can do

Read your OT as well, it's not can do but rather must do.
Again if you are not angered by sin something is wrong!


, BUT it follows with a warning..it has to be resolved quickly otherwise it gives the devil a foothold in our lives.

True, we are to deal in the hear and now, with the sin in front of us.
I don't believe we are to go looking for it, or chasing after it when it crosses our path.
If we step into God's territory of payback, we ourselves fall into sin.




Are you talking about this verse in regards to the cowards?:
Revelation 21:8 New Living Translation
“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 21:8 (King James Version)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You can add to that the following.

Mar (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mar&chapter=4#40) 4:40 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mar&chapter=4&verse=40)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?”
Joh (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=14#27) 14:27 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=14&verse=27)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
“Peace I leave with you; 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) my peace I give to you; I do not give it 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) to you as the world does. 3 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage.


Adam Clark bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=021)
Verse 8. But the fearful
δειλοις Those who, for fear of losing life or their property, either refused to receive the Christian religion, though convinced of its truth and importance; or, having received it, in times of persecution fell away, not being willing to risk their lives.

Clearly human reasoning (sorry Adam).

The only best commentary on the bible, is the bible and the Holy Spirit.

Those who have faith act boldly and are at peace even in the midst of the storm, in the middle of the fight.

The cowardly are so because they do not have faith!


We are to be bold in sharing the gospel sure..but there is nothing in the bible about forcing our way of living on to others.
God's standard is for all mankind.
I do think an employer has the right to demand his customers behave in a certain way..its no different then stores having a sign that says, no shoes, no shirt, no service. And many have a notice saying they have the right to refuse service to anyone. If someone went into the grocery store here and was yelling and cussing, they would be asked to leave...if they didn't the police would be called because their manner of behavior would be taken as threatening.
Exactly God owns the store, has put up His sign, and gave us the job of manager.
So when a customer is out of line the job of the manager is to call them on it and if things remain unchanged to hand it over the authority.


So in this way I think an employer should protect their employee from certain things...no customer has the right to verbally abuse employees...certain social politeness is expected in businesses. This is different then trying to make others live like we do though.

What does it mean to be the salt of the earth?


The only people I read about in the bible Jesus rebuking were those that claimed to be believers...the Jews. Not the unbelievers.

Jew first, Jesus ministry was to the Jews.
He had almost no dealings with non jews.
Dident Jesus say to the gentile woman "why should I give the childrens food to the dogs?"
Harsh yes?
But it was the light, it was the truth, but her humble response in acknowledging her place as a dog won her her request.
The light, the truth may seem harsh but the real harshness is in what it exposes, the hearts of men.


Should we really expect unbelievers to behave as if they were believers without the Holy Spirit in them?

We shouldn't be surprised.
Does God expect sinners to sin?
Is His standard still held up to them even if they are unable to keep it?
Are not all still guilty of their sin even though they are unable to do otherwise?
They remain sinners because they do not want to come into the light.
Jesus did not come to judge.
This is the judgment that the light came into the world and men loved the darkness because their deeds are evil.
In the same way we should not come to judge, but rather our coming should be in the shining of that same light of love and truth.

Not hidden under a bushel, but to shine so is also to expose sin.

But if we desired to live such righteous lives we would be persecuted, as promised.



Is that possible without the Holy Spirit? To some extent...but honestly would we want muslims telling Christian women they aren't covered enough and are sinning? That the men are also not dressed right and get after us for not praying five times a day? They could easily say what you just said, they are just being bold and standing up for their faith. I don't think too many of us would feel they had the right to do this actually.


Its not about what we feel, or if we have a right to.
It's about who would we rather offend.
It's about abdicating our responsibility to be salt and light.
Consider what happens to the tasteless salt.

I am not talking about enforcing by force God's standard, never said anything to give that impression, so it must be from your heart.

The command was to expose, to shine the light, to proclaim God's standard. Enforcement is in God's hands, not ours.

Though this young lady may have not gotten it all correct she did not show her self to be a coward, to be faithless.

Sorry for the giant post.
Now I just want and made it bigger.

I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. Notice how the nations surrounding Israel were still held accountable for basic moral faults, including blasphemy against God. So it seems that on some level there is an expected amount of decency, even from those who aren't Christians.

Regardless, for me it wouldn't have been a huge deal. I expect such things. But for others, it might be. It is a cultural issue. As Daughter brought up, had he been insulting her for being a woman and she stood up for herself, this wouldn't be an issue.

I hear the word's a lot, and you are right some times it's just empty words.
I would rather hear and speak to the heart.
That is where it should be a huge deal.

I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree. Notice how the nations surrounding Israel were still held accountable for basic moral faults, including blasphemy against God. So it seems that on some level there is an expected amount of decency, even from those who aren't Christians.

Sinners are held accountable by God but not by believers. Government also can hold them accountable. When God says to do more, then we do more. It's not to be done as a habit.

Where do you find God telling believers to chastise unbelievers as a matter of habit when it comes to morality?

Sinners are held accountable by God but not by believers. Government also can hold them accountable. When God says to do more, then we do more. It's not to be done as a habit.

Where do you find God telling believers to chastise unbelievers as a matter of habit when it comes to morality?


You're assuming much in that last statement. For one, asking someone not to say something because it offends you isn't chastising them. She wasn't say, "turn or burn."

Secondly, when it comes to their personal ethics, we don't see any place in Scripture to judge them; but this doesn't mean we can't point them in the right direction. There is neither a prohibition or command to do so. Thus, I don't think the, "Well where's your Scripture" argument really applies to this. Hence why it's a gray issue and everyone needs to realize it as such.

Third, if we're not supposed to encourage morality among the lost, would you be opposed to ridding us of all moral codes prohibiting murder, rape, or things of that nature? There's a natural law that people should follow and we should encourage people to be in line with that natural law. That is, after all, the purpose of government (in theory).

Actually no.
The context is clearly speaking of the sons of disobedience, not the believers.

5:6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 9 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n9) 5:7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 10 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n10) 5:8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are 11 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n11) light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light – 5:9 for the fruit of the light 12 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n12) consists in 13 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n13) all goodness, righteousness, and truth – 5:10 trying to learn 14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n14) what is pleasing to the Lord. 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather 15 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n15) expose them. 16 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n16) 5:12 For the things they do 17 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n17) in secret are shameful even to mention. 5:13 But all things being exposed by the light are made evident. 5:14 For everything made evident is light, and for this reason it says: 18 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n18)


So we are back to exposing them, calling sin sin without shrinking back in fear.

I never said go looking for this, or make it your job.
But like Jesus when it came His way He did not shrink back.

If you read your whole bible you find God is always angry at sin.
As we should always be angry at it when we encounter it.
If we love, we should expose it and move on.

You quoted the verse your self.
Ephesians 4: 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

If you are not angry at sin, you are not acting like God.


You assume that love does not result in anger.

Some people do not like the fact that our God who is love, hates and gets angry. But not understanding that is not understanding the cross.


What in your mind qualifies all the Jews as believers?
Clearly many where unbelievers based on Jesus statements; calling some a brood of vipers other children of their father the devil.


How do I make it sound like that when I never said any such thing?

I made two statements
Righteousness is associated throughout scriptures as hating what God hates.
Jesus was repeatedly angered by the sin and unbelief of the people of this world.
Both of which are true.

So what is the real issue you are having?
You don't want a Jesus who gets angry over our sin?


Read your OT as well, it's not can do but rather must do.
Again if you are not angered by sin something is wrong!

True, we are to deal in the hear and now, with the sin in front of us.
I don't believe we are to go looking for it, or chasing after it when it crosses our path.
If we step into God's territory of payback, we ourselves fall into sin.



You can add to that the following.

Mar (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mar&chapter=4#40) 4:40 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mar&chapter=4&verse=40)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?”
Joh (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=14#27) 14:27 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=14&verse=27)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
“Peace I leave with you; 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) my peace I give to you; I do not give it 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) to you as the world does. 3 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage.

Clearly human reasoning (sorry Adam).

The only best commentary on the bible, is the bible and the Holy Spirit.

Those who have faith act boldly and are at peace even in the midst of the storm, in the middle of the fight.

The cowardly are so because they do not have faith!

Exactly God owns the store, has put up His sign, and gave us the job of manager.
So when a customer is out of line the job of the manager is to call them on it and if things remain unchanged to hand it over the authority.

What does it mean to be the salt of the earth?

Jew first, Jesus ministry was to the Jews.
He had almost no dealings with non jews.
Dident Jesus say to the gentile woman "why should I give the childrens food to the dogs?"
Harsh yes?
But it was the light, it was the truth, but her humble response in acknowledging her place as a dog won her her request.
The light, the truth may seem harsh but the real harshness is in what it exposes, the hearts of men.

We shouldn't be surprised.
Does God expect sinners to sin?
Is His standard still held up to them even if they are unable to keep it?
Are not all still guilty of their sin even though they are unable to do otherwise?
They remain sinners because they do not want to come into the light.
Jesus did not come to judge.
This is the judgment that the light came into the world and men loved the darkness because their deeds are evil.
In the same way we should not come to judge, but rather our coming should be in the shining of that same light of love and truth.

Not hidden under a bushel, but to shine so is also to expose sin.

But if we desired to live such righteous lives we would be persecuted, as promised.


Its not about what we feel, or if we have a right to.
It's about who would we rather offend.
It's about abdicating our responsibility to be salt and light.
Consider what happens to the tasteless salt.

I am not talking about enforcing by force God's standard, never said anything to give that impression, so it must be from your heart.

The command was to expose, to shine the light, to proclaim God's standard. Enforcement is in God's hands, not ours.

Though this young lady may have not gotten it all correct she did not show her self to be a coward, to be faithless.

Sorry for the giant post.
Now I just want and made it bigger.

Of course we are to be angry about sin...but you simply had in your post to be angry...you never said be angry at sin, that is why I responded like I did.
And yes the why I understood your post it seemed as if you were saying Jesus was angry all the time. Why would I go to all the trouble I did to do a long post and look up scriptures if I hadn't taken your post that way? Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I understood it.

Yes I realize God hates sin...I hate it, we all do...its like a cancer that has infected everything in this world..its creeped in literally everywhere and is in everything. But I didn't understand your post focusing on sin in this way. Sorry.


We are going to just have to disagree on the Ephesians one because this is exactly what Jesus did with the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23..and yes He made it clear they weren't true believers but the point was...they claimed to be true believers. We ARE to call out false Christians and false prophets just as Jesus said to do. Anyone claiming to be a believer yet doing these terrible things and there are alot of them out there. That is why the Scribes and Pharisees were called out by Him ...and the others mentioned that He said were children of the devil because they didn't know Him. They assumed they were saved simply for being descendant of Abraham. None of them thought they were nonbelievers..they all claimed to believe in the one true God, but their actions said otherwise.

Look at how many in the church today allow for homosexual pastors and claim to be true believers...Ephesians would apply to them. And those that overlook their members or even the pastor, committing adultery. We have had at least three pastors in my town alone over the last 20 years or so, lose their position because of adultery..and that is just the ones I know about. If Ephesians is about nonbelievers, then we have a contradiction between that and what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5 about us not judging those outside the church...the body of Christ and I don't think Paul would contradict himself. He clearly states God is to judge the those outside the church.

This doesn't mean as a civilized society we allow murder and rape, riots and looting to go unchecked in our streets by any means! Even governments that no nothing about our bible have laws in place against murder, stealing, rape, and so forth. If any country has hopes of having a safe and prospering society, they have to have basic human right laws in place...other wise they won't last long.

The very gospel message is about turning away from our sins...telling people to repent, to turn away from their sins...and yes that offends them! Its surprising how many nonbelievers don't even understand what sin is...when they are told things like lying, shop lifting, having sex with someone they aren't married too, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc, etc are sins, some can get angry and upset. I agree we have to be bold IN telling people about the gospel. We can't share that without having the possibly of upsetting some people for sure. Of course then explaining how Jesus frees us from the bondage of sin is what the Good News is all about...and for some that brings alot of joy...for those that want to stay in their sins, they reject the message and might get hostile. So yea we are to be bold in sharing the gospel with others...sure.

God bless

Actually no.
The context is clearly speaking of the sons of disobedience, not the believers.

5:6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 9 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n9) 5:7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 10 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n10) 5:8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are 11 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n11) light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light – 5:9 for the fruit of the light 12 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n12) consists in 13 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n13) all goodness, righteousness, and truth – 5:10 trying to learn 14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n14) what is pleasing to the Lord. 5:11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather 15 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n15) expose them. 16 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n16) 5:12 For the things they do 17 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n17) in secret are shameful even to mention. 5:13 But all things being exposed by the light are made evident. 5:14 For everything made evident is light, and for this reason it says: 18 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=5#n18)


So we are back to exposing them, calling sin sin without shrinking back in fear.

I never said go looking for this, or make it your job.
But like Jesus when it came His way He did not shrink back.

If you read your whole bible you find God is always angry at sin.
As we should always be angry at it when we encounter it.
If we love, we should expose it and move on.

You quoted the verse your self.
Ephesians 4: 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

If you are not angry at sin, you are not acting like God.


You assume that love does not result in anger.

Some people do not like the fact that our God who is love, hates and gets angry. But not understanding that is not understanding the cross.


What in your mind qualifies all the Jews as believers?
Clearly many where unbelievers based on Jesus statements; calling some a brood of vipers other children of their father the devil.


How do I make it sound like that when I never said any such thing?

I made two statements
Righteousness is associated throughout scriptures as hating what God hates.
Jesus was repeatedly angered by the sin and unbelief of the people of this world.
Both of which are true.

So what is the real issue you are having?
You don't want a Jesus who gets angry over our sin?


Read your OT as well, it's not can do but rather must do.
Again if you are not angered by sin something is wrong!

True, we are to deal in the hear and now, with the sin in front of us.
I don't believe we are to go looking for it, or chasing after it when it crosses our path.
If we step into God's territory of payback, we ourselves fall into sin.



You can add to that the following.

Mar (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Mar&chapter=4#40) 4:40 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Mar&chapter=4&verse=40)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?”
Joh (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=14#27) 14:27 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=14&verse=27)http://net.bible.org/images/advanced.gif
“Peace I leave with you; 1 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) my peace I give to you; I do not give it 2 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) to you as the world does. 3 (http://net.bible.org/search.php?search=cowardly&mode=&scope=#) Do not let your hearts be distressed or lacking in courage.

Clearly human reasoning (sorry Adam).

The only best commentary on the bible, is the bible and the Holy Spirit.

Those who have faith act boldly and are at peace even in the midst of the storm, in the middle of the fight.

The cowardly are so because they do not have faith!

Exactly God owns the store, has put up His sign, and gave us the job of manager.
So when a customer is out of line the job of the manager is to call them on it and if things remain unchanged to hand it over the authority.

What does it mean to be the salt of the earth?

Jew first, Jesus ministry was to the Jews.
He had almost no dealings with non jews.
Dident Jesus say to the gentile woman "why should I give the childrens food to the dogs?"
Harsh yes?
But it was the light, it was the truth, but her humble response in acknowledging her place as a dog won her her request.
The light, the truth may seem harsh but the real harshness is in what it exposes, the hearts of men.

We shouldn't be surprised.
Does God expect sinners to sin?
Is His standard still held up to them even if they are unable to keep it?
Are not all still guilty of their sin even though they are unable to do otherwise?
They remain sinners because they do not want to come into the light.
Jesus did not come to judge.
This is the judgment that the light came into the world and men loved the darkness because their deeds are evil.
In the same way we should not come to judge, but rather our coming should be in the shining of that same light of love and truth.

Not hidden under a bushel, but to shine so is also to expose sin.

But if we desired to live such righteous lives we would be persecuted, as promised.


Its not about what we feel, or if we have a right to.
It's about who would we rather offend.
It's about abdicating our responsibility to be salt and light.
Consider what happens to the tasteless salt.

I am not talking about enforcing by force God's standard, never said anything to give that impression, so it must be from your heart.

The command was to expose, to shine the light, to proclaim God's standard. Enforcement is in God's hands, not ours.

Though this young lady may have not gotten it all correct she did not show her self to be a coward, to be faithless.

Sorry for the giant post.
Now I just want and made it bigger.

Of course we are to be angry about sin...but you simply had in your post to be angry...you never said be angry at sin, that is why I responded like I did.
And yes the why I understood your post it seemed as if you were saying Jesus was angry all the time. Why would I go to all the trouble I did to do a long post and look up scriptures if I hadn't taken your post that way? Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I understood it.

Yes I realize God hates sin...I hate it, we all do...its like a cancer that has infected everything in this world..its creeped in literally everywhere and is in everything. But I didn't understand your post focusing on sin in this way. Sorry.


We are going to just have to disagree on the Ephesians one because this is exactly what Jesus did with the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23..and yes He made it clear they weren't true believers but the point was...they claimed to be true believers. We ARE to call out false Christians and false prophets just as Jesus said to do. Anyone claiming to be a believer yet doing these terrible things and there are alot of them out there. That is why the Scribes and Pharisees were called out by Him ...and the others mentioned that He said were children of the devil because they didn't know Him. They assumed they were saved simply for being descendant of Abraham. None of them thought they were nonbelievers..they all claimed to believe in the one true God, but their actions said otherwise.

Look at how many in the church today allow for homosexual pastors and claim to be true believers...Ephesians would apply to them. And those that overlook their members or even the pastor, committing adultery. We have had at least three pastors in my town alone over the last 20 years or so, lose their position because of adultery..and that is just the ones I know about. If Ephesians is about nonbelievers, then we have a contradiction between that and what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5 about us not judging those outside the church...the body of Christ and I don't think Paul would contradict himself. He clearly states God is to judge the those outside the church.

This doesn't mean as a civilized society we allow murder and rape, riots and looting to go unchecked in our streets by any means! Even governments that no nothing about our bible have laws in place against murder, stealing, rape, and so forth. If any country has hopes of having a safe and prospering society, they have to have basic human right laws in place...other wise they won't last long.

The very gospel message is about turning away from our sins...telling people to repent, to turn away from their sins...and yes that offends them! Its surprising how many nonbelievers don't even understand what sin is...when they are told things like lying, shop lifting, having sex with someone they aren't married too, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc, etc are sins, some can get angry and upset. I agree we have to be bold IN telling people about the gospel. We can't share that without having the possibly of upsetting some people for sure. Of course then explaining how Jesus frees us from the bondage of sin is what the Good News is all about...and for some that brings alot of joy...for those that want to stay in their sins, they reject the message and might get hostile. So yea we are to be bold in sharing the gospel with others...sure.

Oh and yes I have read through the bible, including the OT numbers of times..I just finished Daniel in fact. We can't understand half of what Jesus is talking about if we don't know the OT since He does quote it alot.

God bless

I have mixed feelings about this. I'm not sure it's right to take offense to the point of confronting someone. Typically what we see in Scripture is correction is done between people who know each other, and between believers. While it's true that we should encourage and enforce moral behavior, I'm not sure that includes enforcing moral speech. Of course, in extreme cases where someone is being verbally abused or using inappropriate language in front of children, I believe it's right to intervene. But if someone is speaking to us and they are 1) an unbeliever, 2) someone we hardly know, or 3) speaking to us personally...then I think we have to use a great deal of discernment and caution. What is the purpose in confronting them or expressing disapproval? From what I understand, this was a stranger, not someone this person had relationship with. Now I have friends who know my boundaries and will avoid topics and discussions that they know I disapprove of. But I don't hold strangers to the same code of conduct around me.

I've been in situations at work where people have been frustrated or upset. Typically this is when an outburst will happen. One time I was working in a physician's clinic and I had to ask a patient for a photo ID to put in his chart. For some reason, this highly upset him. He went on a rant about having fought in Vietnam and how offended he was that I would ask for a photo ID...this of course was peppered with colorful language, including using God's name in vain. I had 2 choices. I could take offense to the words he used and completely ignore his frustration (why he said them) or I could try to put him at ease and explain why I needed his ID. I chose the 2nd option. Once I explained nicely that the photo ID was for his own protection so we could be sure about his identity in the future, he relaxed. I diffused the situation by showing kindness. Yes, his words offended me...but ultimately taking care of him was more important to me than my own offense.

One more thing, I'm not sure what the customer in this situation was upset about but I did have a question. When we're dealing with someone who is upset about something, which do you think is more important:

1. Taking a stand for what we believe/Taking offense
2. Showing kindness and seeking to resolve why the person is upset

Very often it cannot be both. Sometimes we have to lay aside our own offense in order to see the bigger picture. As far as a broader spectrum also, which option best reflects Christ to the world?

One more thing, I'm not sure what the customer in this situation was upset about but I did have a question. When we're dealing with someone who is upset about something, which do you think is more important:

1. Taking a stand for what we believe/Taking offense
2. Showing kindness and seeking to resolve why the person is upset

Very often it cannot be both. Sometimes we have to lay aside our own offense in order to see the bigger picture. As far as a broader spectrum also, which option best reflects Christ to the world?

If you are saying it offends me, let it go.
If it is about someone offending the name and character of God, don't let it pass.

Of course we are to be angry about sin...but you simply had in your post to be angry...you never said be angry at sin, that is why I responded like I did.
And yes the why I understood your post it seemed as if you were saying Jesus was angry all the time. Why would I go to all the trouble I did to do a long post and look up scriptures if I hadn't taken your post that way? Maybe that isn't what you meant but that is how I understood it.

Yes I realize God hates sin...I hate it, we all do...its like a cancer that has infected everything in this world..its creeped in literally everywhere and is in everything. But I didn't understand your post focusing on sin in this way. Sorry.

No worries.:)


We are going to just have to disagree on the Ephesians one because this is exactly what Jesus did with the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23..and yes He made it clear they weren't true believers but the point was...they claimed to be true believers. We ARE to call out false Christians and false prophets just as Jesus said to do. Anyone claiming to be a believer yet doing these terrible things and there are alot of them out there. That is why the Scribes and Pharisees were called out by Him ...and the others mentioned that He said were children of the devil because they didn't know Him. They assumed they were saved simply for being descendant of Abraham. None of them thought they were nonbelievers..they all claimed to believe in the one true God, but their actions said otherwise.

Clearly he was harshest towards the self righteous pastors and teachers of His day just as He would be today.


Look at how many in the church today allow for homosexual pastors and claim to be true believers...Ephesians would apply to them. And those that overlook their members or even the pastor, committing adultery. We have had at least three pastors in my town alone over the last 20 years or so, lose their position because of adultery..and that is just the ones I know about. If Ephesians is about nonbelievers, then we have a contradiction between that and what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5 about us not judging those outside the church...the body of Christ and I don't think Paul would contradict himself. He clearly states God is to judge the those outside the church.

Depends how you understanding judging.
Holding people accountable and requiring obedience is for the saints.
Shining the light of Gods standard and truth is also a judgment which we are to do and be.
But again we are not to hold them accountable, The light it self if we let it shine will do that. It will judge the world.


This doesn't mean as a civilized society we allow murder and rape, riots and looting to go unchecked in our streets by any means! Even governments that no nothing about our bible have laws in place against murder, stealing, rape, and so forth. If any country has hopes of having a safe and prospering society, they have to have basic human right laws in place...other wise they won't last long.

Yes and most laws are based on God's laws because most people acknowledge God's standard as good even if they don't keep it.


The very gospel message is about turning away from our sins...telling people to repent, to turn away from their sins...and yes that offends them! Its surprising how many nonbelievers don't even understand what sin is...when they are told things like lying, shop lifting, having sex with someone they aren't married too, doing drugs, getting drunk, etc, etc are sins, some can get angry and upset. I agree we have to be bold IN telling people about the gospel. We can't share that without having the possibly of upsetting some people for sure. Of course then explaining how Jesus frees us from the bondage of sin is what the Good News is all about...and for some that brings alot of joy...for those that want to stay in their sins, they reject the message and might get hostile. So yea we are to be bold in sharing the gospel with others...sure.

Oh and yes I have read through the bible, including the OT numbers of times..I just finished Daniel in fact. We can't understand half of what Jesus is talking about if we don't know the OT since He does quote it alot.

God bless
Love what God Loves.
Hate what God hates.
Speak the truth, in season and out of season.
Declare the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light!

No worries.:)

Clearly he was harshest towards the self righteous pastors and teachers of His day just as He would be today.

Depends how you understanding judging.
Holding people accountable and requiring obedience is for the saints.
Shining the light of Gods standard and truth is also a judgment which we are to do and be.
But again we are not to hold them accountable, The light it self if we let it shine will do that. It will judge the world.

Yes and most laws are based on God's laws because most people acknowledge God's standard as good even if they don't keep it.

Love what God Loves.
Hate what God hates.
Speak the truth, in season and out of season.
Declare the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light!

You are making it impossible to debate or disagree with you on anything here...:lol:

I agree with everything you said!

Have a wonderful, God blessed day!

You are making it impossible to debate or disagree with you on anything here...:lol:

I agree with everything you said!

Have a wonderful, God blessed day!
Sorry. we can get more controversial in another thread.

Sorry. we can get more controversial in another thread.

Yea...I suppose but not tonight, I am too tired..:rolleyes: :lol:

Yea...I suppose but not tonight, I am too tired..:rolleyes: :lol:
OK

God's Best.............................