With regards to the following scriptures how does the law of works affect grace and if possible salvation, as we are saved by grace?

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

With regards to the following scriptures how does the law of works affect grace and if possible salvation, as we are saved by grace?

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You are Truly Saved by Grace... charis... in the Greek... which means God's mercy and lovingkindness, favour.. unmerited is directed at you.
He exerts His Holy Influence upon your life.. by bestowing His Grace and Kindness in every aspect your life.. all this unmerited... This is God Centered Salvation and not man centered salvation... Its Roots are in Heaven and the Author and Finisher of it is the Person of Jesus the Christ...God manifest in the flesh... He Draws the Sinner.. Reveals Himself to him/her... Saves him/her.. Empowers him/her... and Keeps him/her...


works of the law? attempting to be justified and saved thru them?

if you are doing this.. and you have been Saved by Him.. Truly in the Past..

then ye have fallen from Grace..

Christ's Work on the Bloody Tree has become null and void to you...

Everything is fullfilled in that... It is Finished...

believing that as a child would.. with Child like faith...

Justified and declared Righteouss!!

man centered salvation says... Yes I can......

God Centered Salvation... says..... NO YOU CANT...... and this is why Jesus went to the Cross... that belief in Him and what He has done for you... is the ONLY WAY to be Justified and declared Righteouss in the Eyes of God...

this is why the Cross is an offense to many.. and a stumblingstone... and yes.. this even with people in organized religion....

You are Truly Saved by Grace... charis... in the Greek... which means God's mercy and lovingkindness, favour.. unmerited is directed at you.
He exerts His Holy Influence upon your life.. by bestowing His Grace and Kindness in every aspect your life.. all this unmerited... This is God Centered Salvation and not man centered salvation... Its Roots are in Heaven and the Author and Finisher of it is the Person of Jesus the Christ...God manifest in the flesh... He Draws the Sinner.. Reveals Himself to him/her... Saves him/her.. Empowers him/her... and Keeps him/her...


works of the law? attempting to be justified and saved thru them?

if you are doing this.. and you have been Saved by Him.. Truly in the Past..

then ye have fallen from Grace..

Christ's Work on the Bloody Tree has become null and void to you...

Everything is fullfilled in that... It is Finished...

believing that as a child would.. with Child like faith...

Justified and declared Righteouss!!

man centered salvation says... Yes I can......

God Centered Salvation... says..... NO YOU CANT...... and this is why Jesus went to the Cross... that belief in Him and what He has done for you... is the ONLY WAY to be Justified and declared Righteouss in the Eyes of God...

this is why the Cross is an offense to many.. and a stumblingstone... and yes.. this even with people in organized religion....

Thanks TBD,

I agree, God bless you!

Firstfruits

What is grace? I know the generic seminary answer. TBD has nailed it. It is God's provisionary toolkit --complete and finished work of Jesus Christ.

awesome!!!

What is grace? I know the generic seminary answer. TBD has nailed it. It is God's provisionary toolkit --complete and finished work of Jesus Christ.

awesome!!!

Thanks Sirus,

So by the law if works, is the following scripture implying that to do so means that the work of Christ is not finished?

Rom 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Firstfruits

Obedience is still required (John 8:31)

The notion that grace absolves man of any sort of acts of obedience, is a heresy stemming from the reformation era.

Men , so glad to be free of the shackles of Romanism, with all its work based religion, began teaching that absolutely NOTHING is required of man.

The scriptures simply do not bear this out.

all the best...

Obedience is still required (John 8:31)

The notion that grace absolves man of any sort of acts of obedience, is a heresy stemming from the reformation era.

Men , so glad to be free of the shackles of Romanism, with all its work based religion, began teaching that absolutely NOTHING is required of man.

The scriptures simply do not bear this out.

all the best...

Is there not a difference between the law of works and the law of faith, knowing that this was pointed out by Paul?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Obedience is still required (John 8:31)

The notion that grace absolves man of any sort of acts of obedience, is a heresy stemming from the reformation era.

Men , so glad to be free of the shackles of Romanism, with all its work based religion, began teaching that absolutely NOTHING is required of man.

The scriptures simply do not bear this out.

all the best...

Absolutely true!!

Blessings,
BHS

Thanks Sirus,

So by the law if works, is the following scripture implying that to do so means that the work of Christ is not finished?

Rom 4:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Firstfruits

Nope, Paul is illustrating that if salvation was works based, God would be the debtor. The companion verse next: "but to him But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

Is showing that to he who believes in the God who justifies the ungodly (Christ) his faith is counted as righteousness, just as Abraham's was.


Blessings



tt1106

Nope, Paul is illustrating that if salvation was works based, God would be the debtor. The companion verse next: "but to him But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

Is showing that to he who believes in the God who justifies the ungodly (Christ) his faith is counted as righteousness, just as Abraham's was.


Blessings



tt1106

Thanks tt1106,

Would the fact that it is us that are doing the work mean that it is us that believe we owe it to God to do the works of the law?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Is there not a difference between the law of works and the law of faith, knowing that this was pointed out by Paul?

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, big difference!

Salvation is fully by Grace.... and works follow. Scripture is clear that there is nothing we can DO to merit Salvation, we cannot earn it.

Our obedience follows Grace, in response to Grace, because of Grace, not to "keep or earn? Grace"

From Abraham to James, our obedience shows our faith in His Grace, but is not the means of it.

I really understand kay-gee, Grace is a scary thing to us work oriented creatures, something that I have struggled to keep in the proper focus all of my years in Christ.

God bless,
Doug

Yes, big difference!

Salvation is fully by Grace.... and works follow. Scripture is clear that there is nothing we can DO to merit Salvation, we cannot earn it.

Our obedience follows Grace, in response to Grace, because of Grace, not to "keep or earn? Grace"

From Abraham to James, our obedience shows our faith in His Grace, but is not the means of it.

I really understand kay-gee, Grace is a scary thing to us work oriented creatures, something that I have struggled to keep in the proper focus all of my years in Christ.

God bless,
Doug

Thanks Doug,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Saved by grace? Yes!

The confusion is in regard to works. Grace and works can go hand in hand, just as faith and works can go hand in hand. (If you don't believe that, check out what James says.) The criteria to salvation is that we do not use works to justify salvation. However, works as a response to God's grace is simply that. It is a natural response, and one that God expects.

Blesssings,
BHS

Saved by grace? Yes!

The confusion is in regard to works. Grace and works can go hand in hand, just as faith and works can go hand in hand. (If you don't believe that, check out what James says.) The criteria to salvation is that we do not use works to justify salvation. However, works as a response to God's grace is simply that. It is a natural response, and one that God expects.

Blesssings,
BHS

Works are the evidence of our living faith.

If we have received the word and understood it, we WILL bear fruit.

If before we were saved, we did not produce works of the flesh, then it is because we are dead. All that is/was necessary to produce works of the flesh, is to be alive.

The same principle applies to grace working through faith. If we do not produce works of grace through faith, it is because the faith we have is dead.

Some have applied works to be synonymous with having to do in order to keep their salvation. When we are saved, we are His children. He can no more disown us (2 Tim. 2:13) than I could disown my child for failing to wash the dishes as I asked.

Grace is what allows us to continue to be obedient to Him. Not out of some fearful obligation but out of love because we know what both He and His Son did for us.

Maybe we fail to understand grace because our heart has yet to grasp that Jesus died for us. To make it more personal, Jesus died for ME (one person) and if I had been the only person on the planet He still would have made that sacrifice. We can not work our way into heaven, nor are we honoring God when we continually try to work our way into His good graces in order to maintain a salvation that some are so unsure of. As for me, I work for the Lord because He loves me. It is what I choose to do in obedience to Him.

Some have applied works to be synonymous with having to do in order to keep their salvation. When we are saved, we are His children. He can no more disown us (2 Tim. 2:13) than I could disown my child for failing to wash the dishes as I asked.

Grace is what allows us to continue to be obedient to Him. Not out of some fearful obligation but out of love because we know what both He and His Son did for us.

Maybe we fail to understand grace because our heart has yet to grasp that Jesus died for us. To make it more personal, Jesus died for ME (one person) and if I had been the only person on the planet He still would have made that sacrifice. We can not work our way into heaven, nor are we honoring God when we continually try to work our way into His good graces in order to maintain a salvation that some are so unsure of. As for me, I work for the Lord because He loves me. It is what I choose to do in obedience to Him.

excellent response.. You took the words right out of my mouth..

and those 'works' we walk in as Born Again Christians...

God Himself afore.. which means beforehand... He has prepared and made ready that we may walk in them.... He will direct you 'into' them and give you the power and Grace to do them... the 'works' you are walking in now as a Born AGain Christian.. even before you were born again.. He had already planned out for you... He had them prepared...before the day you were Saved by Him..... Its His Foreknowldege and Will for you life... we don't work to 'gain' His Grace... or somehow 'merit' His Grace.. as a Christian... He will direct you into the Works He has ordained for you. and will give you the Power and Grace and Widsom to do them.. as You walk with Him on a daily basis..

May You Grow in Grace and the Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Will for your life.. amen and amen....

Its His Foreknowldege and Will for you life... we don't work to 'gain' His Grace... or somehow 'merit' His Grace.. as a Christian... He will direct you into the Works He has ordained for you. and will give you the Power and Grace and Widsom to do them.. as You walk with Him on a daily basis..



What you have written makes 2 Corinthians 12:9 ..."My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness...." ring even more true for me. Thank you so very much. :hug:

With regards to the following scriptures how does the law of works affect grace and if possible salvation, as we are saved by grace?

Rom 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



To be 'saved by grace' includes in its meaning that we are saved by works that grace makes it possible for us to perform.
Paul's reference to "no more of works" and "works of the law" above, are in reference to the OT system, before the "grace and truth" only Jesus brought.

Our right standing with God; our being just before him, is NOT by faith only, but by faith AND works; the works being the product of faith and yielding to God's strength (grace) whereby we understand that the change in our lives (being saved) and the subsequent works are not of ourselves lest we boast, for we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Since a person's works will determine where they go for eternity, God's grace enables us to stop doing those things that will put us in hell if we go back to them: like a dog to his vomit or a sow to her wallowing in the mire.

To disassociate what a person does with salvation is antichrist in the first degree.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

A good scripture text that puts it in perspective is Eph 2:8-10:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works are a natural result of faith. Here is an illustration. Works are like a thermometer's reading. If you put a thermometer in your child's mouth and then it reads 103 degrees, you know he has a fever. The thermometer is not the fever. In the same way, when you see a Christian doing the things of God (works), you know that he/she has faith. The works are not the faith, but indicate that there is true Biblical faith.

Saved by grace? Yes!

The confusion is in regard to works. Grace and works can go hand in hand, just as faith and works can go hand in hand. (If you don't believe that, check out what James says.) The criteria to salvation is that we do not use works to justify salvation. However, works as a response to God's grace is simply that. It is a natural response, and one that God expects.

Blesssings,
BHS

But as has been pointed out there is a difference between the works of the law and the works of faith or the law of Christ.

The works are not the same.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Some have applied works to be synonymous with having to do in order to keep their salvation. When we are saved, we are His children. He can no more disown us (2 Tim. 2:13) than I could disown my child for failing to wash the dishes as I asked.

Grace is what allows us to continue to be obedient to Him. Not out of some fearful obligation but out of love because we know what both He and His Son did for us.

Maybe we fail to understand grace because our heart has yet to grasp that Jesus died for us. To make it more personal, Jesus died for ME (one person) and if I had been the only person on the planet He still would have made that sacrifice. We can not work our way into heaven, nor are we honoring God when we continually try to work our way into His good graces in order to maintain a salvation that some are so unsure of. As for me, I work for the Lord because He loves me. It is what I choose to do in obedience to Him.

Thanks Moxie,

Do you therefore apply good works rather than the works of the law according to the law of faith?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

excellent response.. You took the words right out of my mouth..

and those 'works' we walk in as Born Again Christians...

God Himself afore.. which means beforehand... He has prepared and made ready that we may walk in them.... He will direct you 'into' them and give you the power and Grace to do them... the 'works' you are walking in now as a Born AGain Christian.. even before you were born again.. He had already planned out for you... He had them prepared...before the day you were Saved by Him..... Its His Foreknowldege and Will for you life... we don't work to 'gain' His Grace... or somehow 'merit' His Grace.. as a Christian... He will direct you into the Works He has ordained for you. and will give you the Power and Grace and Widsom to do them.. as You walk with Him on a daily basis..

May You Grow in Grace and the Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Will for your life.. amen and amen....

Amen TBD,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

To be 'saved by grace' includes in its meaning that we are saved by works that grace makes it possible for us to perform.
Paul's reference to "no more of works" and "works of the law" above, are in reference to the OT system, before the "grace and truth" only Jesus brought.

Our right standing with God; our being just before him, is NOT by faith only, but by faith AND works; the works being the product of faith and yielding to God's strength (grace) whereby we understand that the change in our lives (being saved) and the subsequent works are not of ourselves lest we boast, for we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Since a person's works will determine where they go for eternity, God's grace enables us to stop doing those things that will put us in hell if we go back to them: like a dog to his vomit or a sow to her wallowing in the mire.

To disassociate what a person does with salvation is antichrist in the first degree.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

But by which works? the law of faith of the works of the law?

Firstfruits

A good scripture text that puts it in perspective is Eph 2:8-10:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works are a natural result of faith. Here is an illustration. Works are like a thermometer's reading. If you put a thermometer in your child's mouth and then it reads 103 degrees, you know he has a fever. The thermometer is not the fever. In the same way, when you see a Christian doing the things of God (works), you know that he/she has faith. The works are not the faith, but indicate that there is true Biblical faith.

Thanks Lysias,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

But as has been pointed out there is a difference between the works of the law and the works of faith or the law of Christ.

The works are not the same.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

I would have to refer to Bibleworks, which is not available to me right now, before I could say what that difference might be.

Blessings,
BHS

I would have to refer to Bibleworks, which is not available to me right now, before I could say what that difference might be.

Blessings,
BHS

Thanks BHS,

I look forward to your reply.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Not only are you Saved By His Grace.. which Means His unmerited Favour and Kindness towards you... also His tender Mercies.... but Peter tells us they are multiplied.. towards you... and not only this... but PEACE... this has nothing to do with man.. but is God Centered.. the Emphasis on Him and His keeping Power... to Empower you and Keep you .. thru the mighty Power of the Holy Ghost...

this has nothing to do with a conditional salvation which puts the emphasis back on man... working working.. somehow trying to gain God's Favor or Grace... by doing enough good.. or not doing this or doing that.. rules and regulations based out of religious systems... a form of legalism.. which breeds self righteousness and pompous Pharisee type attitudes..... which in the long run.. bring condemnation and guilt... because one has not measured up to the 'system of righteousness' established by man... ....as he/she turns their back on the Work of the Cross and Justification thru Faith in that what He has accomplished... It is Finished!..... a majority of those in that 'trap' .. are always looking over their back.. biting their fingers.. wondering if God is going to punish them because they haven't done enough... or the mistake they made last week...living in fear and condemnation..

these go about trying to establish a Righteousness of their own... thats very evident today...

Grace can only come from Heaven... and God is the only One who distributes it.. and IF you are Truly His.. then you are Under His Grace.. if you truly believe what He did on that Bloody Tree if Sufficient.. as a child would believe... God 'knows' your heart.. and its belief and intents.. if you are trying to 'work' your way into Heaven.. thru the Works of the law.. or work hard enough for God to somehow.. blink and say wow.. he/she is really good.. I'll be Gracious to them.. then you have fallen into a Trap..

this is why Christ, God manifest in the flesh, went to the Cross... so that believing on Him and What He has done for you.. is the ONLY WAY... in that. .. Is Rest, Peace.. and His Yoke.. which is not burdonsome or heavy.. He accomplished in His Pure flesh what we could never do...

He will direct your heart into the Will of God for your Life.. giving you the Grace to do what you are called to do... not only this He will direct your heart into the Patient Waiting for Christ from Heaven.. which is that Blessed Hope...

Once again the Cross and its preaching...is an offence to many... but unto us who are Saved.. it is the Power of God....
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Man and his religous ways.. no matter how good they look and appear..... says YES I CAN....

God Says.. NO YOU CAN'T... but I'll provide a Way.. and its thru My Son.. who has Completed what you could never do... His Victory was thru Golgotha... It's Your Victory also...

He who causes us to Triumph thru the Lord Jesus Christ and what He as Accomplished!

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Not only are you Saved By His Grace.. which Means His unmerited Favour and Kindness towards you... also His tender Mercies.... but Peter tells us they are multiplied.. towards you... and not only this... but PEACE... this has nothing to do with man.. but is God Centered.. the Emphasis on Him and His keeping Power... to Empower you and Keep you .. thru the mighty Power of the Holy Ghost...

this has nothing to do with a conditional salvation which puts the emphasis back on man... working working.. somehow trying to gain God's Favor or Grace... by doing enough good.. or not doing this or doing that.. rules and regulations based out of religious systems... a form of legalism.. which breeds self righteousness and pompous Pharisee type attitudes..... which in the long run.. bring condemnation and guilt... because one has not measured up to the 'system of righteousness' established by man... ....as he/she turns their back on the Work of the Cross and Justification thru Faith in that what He has accomplished... It is Finished!..... a majority of those in that 'trap' .. are always looking over their back.. biting their fingers.. wondering if God is going to punish them because they haven't done enough... or the mistake they made last week...living in fear and condemnation..

these go about trying to establish a Righteousness of their own... thats very evident today...

Grace can only come from Heaven... and God is the only One who distributes it.. and IF you are Truly His.. then you are Under His Grace.. if you truly believe what He did on that Bloody Tree if Sufficient.. as a child would believe... God 'knows' your heart.. and its belief and intents.. if you are trying to 'work' your way into Heaven.. thru the Works of the law.. or work hard enough for God to somehow.. blink and say wow.. he/she is really good.. I'll be Gracious to them.. then you have fallen into a Trap..

this is why Christ, God manifest in the flesh, went to the Cross... so that believing on Him and What He has done for you.. is the ONLY WAY... in that. .. Is Rest, Peace.. and His Yoke.. which is not burdonsome or heavy.. He accomplished in His Pure flesh what we could never do...

He will direct your heart into the Will of God for your Life.. giving you the Grace to do what you are called to do... not only this He will direct your heart into the Patient Waiting for Christ from Heaven.. which is that Blessed Hope...

Once again the Cross and its preaching...is an offence to many... but unto us who are Saved.. it is the Power of God....
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Man and his religous ways.. no matter how good they look and appear..... says YES I CAN....

God Says.. NO YOU CAN'T... but I'll provide a Way.. and its thru My Son.. who has Completed what you could never do... His Victory was thru Golgotha... It's Your Victory also...

He who causes us to Triumph thru the Lord Jesus Christ and what He as Accomplished!

Amen and amen!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits