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ZAB
Jun 10th 2009, 07:24 PM
My father-in-law is a Christian judge and is very concerned with trying to "legislate morality". This is a hot-topic today, especially with the Proposition 8 issues (gay marriage).

My question is this: Can we legislate righteousness? We can sure try to, but will legislated morality stick?

Basically, 2 popular positions are as follows:

(1) Those in favor of legislating morality say that to believe morality cannot be legislated is to betray an ignorance of what laws really are. All laws declare one behavior right and one behavior wrong, which is the very definition of morality. To legislate an anti-abortion law is to simply construct moral guidelines; the hearts of people may never be changed but at least society will not be "barbaric". In other words, the purpose of having laws that prohibit abortion would not be to convince people that abortion is wrong (though they would, eventually, like the laws against slavery, gradually change public opinion). The purpose would be to save innocent human lives. But, is it the Christian's duty to lawfully persuade people that abortion is wrong? What about nations who weren't founded on Judeo-Christian ethics?

(2) Those who ignore the decreasing morals of society seem to focus on a "new government" (Isaiah 9:7), that will be instituted in the ages to come (Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem). They would argue, "why bother striving to make citizens lawfully moral? This whole thing is going to crash and burn anyway!" This point of view would argue that while moral laws do establish the boundaries of our civilization, we are not of this world. We may be in it temporarily, but we are not of it (Jn 18:36). We are part of a coming kingdom, and simply pilgrims in this earth (Heb 11:13; 1 Pet 2:11). But do we have a righteous part to play in our current governmental systems? Or are we to simply wait this thing out? :hmm:

I look forward to your responses.
Blessings,
Z

Reynolds357
Jun 10th 2009, 07:41 PM
My father-in-law is a Christian judge and is very concerned with trying to "legislate morality". This is a hot-topic today, especially with the Proposition 8 issues (gay marriage).

My question is this: Can we legislate righteousness? We can sure try to, but will legislated morality stick?

Basically, 2 popular positions are as follows:

(1) Those in favor of legislating morality say that to believe morality cannot be legislated is to betray an ignorance of what laws really are. All laws declare one behavior right and one behavior wrong, which is the very definition of morality. To legislate an anti-abortion law is to simply construct moral guidelines; the hearts of people may never be changed but at least society will not be "barbaric". In other words, the purpose of having laws that prohibit abortion would not be to convince people that abortion is wrong (though they would, eventually, like the laws against slavery, gradually change public opinion). The purpose would be to save innocent human lives. But, is it the Christian's duty to lawfully persuade people that abortion is wrong? What about nations who weren't founded on Judeo-Christian ethics?

(2) Those who ignore the decreasing morals of society seem to focus on a "new government" (Isaiah 9:7), that will be instituted in the ages to come (Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem). They would argue, "why bother striving to make citizens lawfully moral? This whole thing is going to crash and burn anyway!" This point of view would argue that while moral laws do establish the boundaries of our civilization, we are not of this world. We may be in it temporarily, but we are not of it (Jn 18:36). We are part of a coming kingdom, and simply pilgrims in this earth (Heb 11:13; 1 Pet 2:11). But do we have a righteous part to play in our current governmental systems? Or are we to simply wait this thing out? :hmm:

I look forward to your responses.
Blessings,
Z

Every law we have in our nation is legislated morality. Even traffic laws are legislated morality.

ZAB
Jun 10th 2009, 07:58 PM
Every law we have in our nation is legislated morality. Even traffic laws are legislated morality.

Yes, but I think civil laws differ from moral laws. By instituting traffic laws, we aren't trying to alter someone's viewpoints or morals. We're simply trying to have order. Morality is different. Can legislation that prohibits gay marriage eventually convince people that homosexuality is wrong? And if not, why make such legislation? Is it for the same order in society that traffic laws create? The other side would say homosexuality does not create disorder, which, of course, could be argued too.

:hmm:

p.s. that's a big watermelon!

L'Ange
Jun 10th 2009, 08:09 PM
It just depends on how much one believes that there is an Almighty Creator and that He has communicated to us through Scriptures. If you believe the Torah is His writing, then it makes sense to have laws which conform to His Words as much as possible, for other courses will lead to disaster. That is basically what Soddom & Gomorrah & the book of Revelation, etc. etc. are warnings about.

I believe that obedience to Him and His Word brings blessings and that disobedience to Him brings curses, just as it is written, and that laws should be made accordingly. I realize this is becoming more and more of an unpopular opinion however.

As for me, on judgement day I want to be standing with His Word, not opposed to it. Mho.

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2009, 08:12 PM
Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?

ZAB
Jun 10th 2009, 08:17 PM
It just depends on how much one believes that there is an Almighty Creator and that He has communicated to us through Scriptures. If you believe the Torah is His writing, then it makes sense to have laws which conform to His Words as much as possible, for other courses will lead to disaster. That is basically what Soddom & Gomorrah & the book of Revelation, etc. etc. are warnings about.

I believe that obedience to Him and His Word brings blessings and that disobedience to Him brings curses, just as it is written, and that laws should be made accordingly. I realize this is becoming more and more of an unpopular opinion however.

As for me, on judgement day I want to be standing with His Word, not opposed to it. Mho.

Thankyou.
So you're saying that we are all personally responsible, but not socially responsible, right? And if we are somewhat socially responsible, to what degree does this responsibility extend? What about believers who live in heathen nations? Alot of the argument Christians have to support moral legislation is the fact that the USA's founders were Christians themselves.
What do you think?

ZAB
Jun 10th 2009, 08:20 PM
Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?

Thanks, this is my point. We live in a fallen world. I don't necessarily think that righteous legislation can "create" a righteous attitude. Christian evangelism could do this undoubtedly, but could evangelism become so fervent and successful that it bleeds through into our social legislation? :hmm:
And if so, should we strive for this, or, as I said in my OP, simply "wait it out" for the New and coming Kingdom?

threebigrocks
Jun 10th 2009, 08:22 PM
We strive to win people from eternal death to life in Christ. We will always have immorality, just as we will always have the poor and homeless and orphans.

Doubtful we could make such an impact as to turn this country around, but a whole bunch of eyebrows could certainly be raised. ;)

TrophyofGrace
Jun 10th 2009, 08:39 PM
I think to try to seriously legislate morality is equivalent to this: :B

Laws don't change people's attitudes. If they don't like the (moral) laws now they make enough of a fuss to eventually get them changed. More laws aren't going to result in more morality but likely more opposition.

I think we'll be waiting it out, myself. That's not to say we bury our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on around us until Christ returns, of course.

ZAB
Jun 10th 2009, 08:46 PM
I think to try to seriously legislate morality is equivalent to this: :B

Laws don't change people's attitudes. If they don't like the (moral) laws now they make enough of a fuss to eventually get them changed. More laws aren't going to result in more morality but likely more opposition.

I think we'll be waiting it out, myself. That's not to say we bury our heads in the sand and ignore what's going on around us until Christ returns, of course.

Hi friend,
yes I think I agree with you. We are to shine as lights in this world, and if that bleeds out into our social legislation, then AMEN. But if not, then Jesus' holy and coming government will overthrow all evil. That poses a vital question, however: "should the degree and brightness of our "shining" be effectively impacting local governments?" Are we doing something wrong if it does not?

Bless you, Trophy of Grace :)

L'Ange
Jun 10th 2009, 10:42 PM
Do moral laws matter if the heart is immoral?

For example, our civil law says don't kill. How many people were murdered today?
How many people were not murdered today because there is a law against, and punishment for, murder?

crawfish
Jun 10th 2009, 10:53 PM
I don't think that legislating morality is necessarily a bad thing; however, the question is "whose morality"?

I have certainly met Christians who would enforce moral stances that I would not. Opinions vary wildly on what "moral" behavior is, even among Christians of a single denomination or group. What happens when those in power legislate morality as an attempt to control behavior?

Of course, I'm one who thinks the best government is the one that stays out of our lives as much as possible.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 10th 2009, 11:08 PM
When you say "can WE legislate" who is 'we'?

threebigrocks
Jun 11th 2009, 01:00 AM
How many people were not murdered today because there is a law against, and punishment for, murder?

Some I'm sure. But those were the ones convicted that it's wrong in their heart. They didn't want the consequences, be it jail time or execution. That's the worldly view. Doesn't mean the desire to do so wasn't in them, just means they showed enough restraint is all.

Yet as Christians we know to even have hate in your heart is good enough to be considered murder.

The civil laws of where we live don't mean that the majority, the one who doesn't murder, are moral people. We cannot see a man's heart. In the last days it says that it will be as it was in the days of Noah. In Noah's days it is said of man that their hearts were continually evil. Not some of the time, not most of the time - but continually, always, constant. As the heart is - so go goes (or has already gone) the body and mind.

Same could be said for the one who does or doesn't steal, to commit adultery or not, to lie or tell truth, to desire what doesn't belong to you or not. If you wanted to steal, wanted to be adulterous, wanted to lie or coveted someone elses stuff but didn't it's already passed the rationale in one's mind and settled in their heart.

TrophyofGrace
Jun 11th 2009, 12:45 PM
Hi friend,
yes I think I agree with you. We are to shine as lights in this world, and if that bleeds out into our social legislation, then AMEN. But if not, then Jesus' holy and coming government will overthrow all evil. That poses a vital question, however: "should the degree and brightness of our "shining" be effectively impacting local governments?" Are we doing something wrong if it does not?

Bless you, Trophy of Grace :)

Ideally we'd like to see our brightness and shining effectively impacting local governments but the true Christian mindset runs so counter-cultural anymore that I don't think we can have the impact we'd like to have. But again, that shouldn't mean that we become apathetic, either.

I forget where I first heard the following quote, but it's stuck with me since I first heard it:

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

God bless you, z alan bridges!

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 01:01 PM
Some I'm sure. But those were the ones convicted that it's wrong in their heart. They didn't want the consequences, be it jail time or execution. That's the worldly view. Doesn't mean the desire to do so wasn't in them, just means they showed enough restraint is all.

Yet as Christians we know to even have hate in your heart is good enough to be considered murder.

The civil laws of where we live don't mean that the majority, the one who doesn't murder, are moral people. We cannot see a man's heart. In the last days it says that it will be as it was in the days of Noah. In Noah's days it is said of man that their hearts were continually evil. Not some of the time, not most of the time - but continually, always, constant. As the heart is - so go goes (or has already gone) the body and mind.

Same could be said for the one who does or doesn't steal, to commit adultery or not, to lie or tell truth, to desire what doesn't belong to you or not. If you wanted to steal, wanted to be adulterous, wanted to lie or coveted someone elses stuff but didn't it's already passed the rationale in one's mind and settled in their heart.

If someone does not commit murder, burglarize, etc. whatever, because of the law only, but still has those desires in his heart, he will be in trouble before YHWH, but those who created and/or upheld those laws will have done what is right before Him. Laws are not just for the potential transgressors. If someone hates, but doesn't murder a a child, - as in abortion - the law will have protected that child.

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 01:09 PM
Thankyou.
So you're saying that we are all personally responsible, but not socially responsible, right? And if we are somewhat socially responsible, to what degree does this responsibility extend? What about believers who live in heathen nations? Alot of the argument Christians have to support moral legislation is the fact that the USA's founders were Christians themselves.
What do you think?

No, I was not saying we are to be personally responsible but not socially responsible. Part of personal responsibility is being socially responsible. For example if we are followers of YHWH we are to do what part we can to obey and enforce, in some cases to help create, righteous (by that I mean Torah-based) laws. I am not responsible for what pagans do in foreign countries. I can, however, vote against someone who wants to promote, for example, abortion abroad, and vote for laws that help to prevent the spread of international slavery rings. Yes, some of the founders of the USA were Christian and they did use the Torah as their guide in forumulating the constitution, to a significant extent. To me that is a good thing. I make no apologies for it. If others have a problem with such an approach, that is between them and YHWH.

I am right back to where I started. If one believes that YHWH is the Almighty Creator and that the Scriptures are His Book of Instructions, then the smart thing to do is to keep, support, and where possible, help create laws that conform to His will. If other people do not believe that, it is not my problem. On Judgment Day I will not be asked what they did, what they thought, or how they secretly felt inside about comitting any crimes. I will be asked only what I did and how I felt. If they went in the opposite direction from His will it will not impact me on Judgment Day one whit.

Partaker of Christ
Jun 11th 2009, 02:02 PM
Ideally we'd like to see our brightness and shining effectively impacting local governments but the true Christian mindset runs so counter-cultural anymore that I don't think we can have the impact we'd like to have. But again, that shouldn't mean that we become apathetic, either.

I forget where I first heard the following quote, but it's stuck with me since I first heard it:

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

God bless you, z alan bridges!

"Evil prevails when good men do nothing"

Evil prevails because good men having a form of godliness, deny the power of God.

Vhayes
Jun 11th 2009, 02:09 PM
We have the Taliban - they have legislated morality in a BIG way.

Once you go beyond the basics, the fundamentals (murder, stealing, etc.) you get into very subjective things. Who will determine what is right and what is wrong?

ANYTIME you mix religion and politics you end up with an unholy mess. Doesn't matter what brand of religion and it doesn't matter what brand of politics.

th1bill
Jun 11th 2009, 02:17 PM
... The true answer is found in the 613 laws that God gave to the Jews. The reaql question is, will we follow God or Satan?

Firefighter
Jun 11th 2009, 02:21 PM
Good thing we aren't Jewish. I think I will stick to the 2 that Jesus gave Christians...;)

Good to see ya Bill!:D

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2009, 02:51 PM
Yes, but I think civil laws differ from moral laws. By instituting traffic laws, we aren't trying to alter someone's viewpoints or morals. We're simply trying to have order. Morality is different. Can legislation that prohibits gay marriage eventually convince people that homosexuality is wrong? And if not, why make such legislation? Is it for the same order in society that traffic laws create? The other side would say homosexuality does not create disorder, which, of course, could be argued too.

:hmm:

p.s. that's a big watermelon!

There is no real difference. I really do not care if laws convince someone homosexuality is wrong or not. Drug laws are not designed to convince someone drugs are wrong. They are on the books to put those who choose to use drugs in prison. Whether or not the person agrees that drug use is wrong is irrelavent as to whether they will spend time in prison.
Beastiality is illegal. The animal can be the property of the owner. The owner has the right to kill the animal, but will go to prison for having sex with it. Why is beastiality a crime? Does making sex acts with animals illegal preserve order? It is a crime because it is perversion. Homosexual acts are still crimes in most States. Unfortunately, the States can not enforce the laws because of liberal courts.

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2009, 02:53 PM
:hmm:

p.s. that's a big watermelon!

Thanks, I believe it was 114 lbs if I remember correctly. Carolina cross hybrid from my garden 2 years ago.

crawfish
Jun 11th 2009, 03:35 PM
... The true answer is found in the 613 laws that God gave to the Jews. The reaql question is, will we follow God or Satan?

Was God truly legislating morality there, or was he legislating community?

Reynolds357
Jun 11th 2009, 07:36 PM
Was God truly legislating morality there, or was he legislating community?

He was legislating morality because He was constantly infuriated by the "hardness of heart" of the people.

Br. Barnabas
Jun 11th 2009, 07:50 PM
We can try to legislate morality but it will not work. We already tried that with prohibation, it did not work.

If we try to do the same with abortion as you stated above, then what we are doing is making those who want to have an abortion do it in an even more unsafe way. If people's hearts are not changed on the issue then all we are going to do is increase the number of back ally abortions, and other dangerous methods such as women hurting themselves to self abort the child. Not only could these methods increase the risk of physical injury to women but it would also increase the mental pain and anguish that women would go through. Because not only are they doing some thing morally wrong but they are also breaking the law and putting themselves in more danger to do something morally wrong, even though they may not at the time see it as morally wrong. Making it illegal is not going to stop it, it will not change hearts, either. Just look at racism, there are 2nd and 3rd generations of people who have lived with out legalized segregation, and some of them are still racist. There is still a heart issue.

The thing about gay marriage is that really they are still going to live, love, and stay in committed relationships even if there is not gay marriage. But they also must understand that this might become something they don't want because what is to stop to widowers, of the same sex, who are not sexually attracted to each other and are not going to be sexually active with each other, from getting married and reaping all the benefits that a married person would get. In other words, if gay marriage were legalized, then soon after there would be a good chance that many hetrosexual people might start marring other hetrosexual people of the same sex to reap the benefits of marriage tax cuts and other such benefits. Which I doubt homosexuals would like enjoy or approve of. So it might be that they reconsider this action.

Again it is the heart that needs to change but we cannot change the heart by making laws against anything that we as Christians find morally wrong. Because what would stop other religions from making or getting their moral laws passed also?

Legislating morality will not work just as it did not work in the 1920s. And just as it is now with illegal drugs now. Does making drugs illegal stop people from doing them? Of course not! So neither would making abortion illegal. Or does not allowing homosexual to marry stop them from having sex or living together and acting like married couples? As we can tell from the society it does not.

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 08:02 PM
... The true answer is found in the 613 laws that God gave to the Jews. The reaql question is, will we follow God or Satan?
I agree with your Q. Just FYI though, I have read thru the famous 613. They are not all from Torah, some are traditions-of-men additions and, if I
rember correctly, some of them are now outdated since Yahshua became our Isaiah 53 Lamb and he Temple was destroyed.

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 08:07 PM
He was legislating morality because He was constantly infuriated by the "hardness of heart" of the people.

Scriptures tell us what is good and what is bad and that we will be blessed if we obey YHWH and cursed if we disobey. YHWH makes it clear that He is biiiiig on legislating morality! People's hearts are not any softer today, really. Yahshua said that "few" would take the straight and narrow path that leads to Heaven. The Word's way is the narrow way and the world's way is the popular, broad way.

Each of us in this life has to decide: Will we try to live by and uphold the Word's way or the world's way?

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 08:16 PM
We can try to legislate morality but it will not work. We already tried that with prohibation, it did not work.

If we try to do the same with abortion as you stated above, then what we are doing is making those who want to have an abortion do it in an even more unsafe way. If people's hearts are not changed on the issue then all we are going to do is increase the number of back ally abortions, and other dangerous methods such as women hurting themselves to self abort the child. Not only could these methods increase the risk of physical injury to women but it would also increase the mental pain and anguish that women would go through. Because not only are they doing some thing morally wrong but they are also breaking the law and putting themselves in more danger to do something morally wrong, even though they may not at the time see it as morally wrong. Making it illegal is not going to stop it, it will not change hearts, either. Just look at racism, there are 2nd and 3rd generations of people who have lived with out legalized segregation, and some of them are still racist. There is still a heart issue.

The thing about gay marriage is that really they are still going to live, love, and stay in committed relationships even if there is not gay marriage. But they also must understand that this might become something they don't want because what is to stop to widowers, of the same sex, who are not sexually attracted to each other and are not going to be sexually active with each other, from getting married and reaping all the benefits that a married person would get. In other words, if gay marriage were legalized, then soon after there would be a good chance that many hetrosexual people might start marring other hetrosexual people of the same sex to reap the benefits of marriage tax cuts and other such benefits. Which I doubt homosexuals would like enjoy or approve of. So it might be that they reconsider this action.

Again it is the heart that needs to change but we cannot change the heart by making laws against anything that we as Christians find morally wrong. Because what would stop other religions from making or getting their moral laws passed also?

Legislating morality will not work just as it did not work in the 1920s. And just as it is now with illegal drugs now. Does making drugs illegal stop people from doing them? Of course not! So neither would making abortion illegal. Or does not allowing homosexual to marry stop them from having sex or living together and acting like married couples? As we can tell from the society it does not.

When people had to run to back alley doctors to get abortions, was the rate of abortion higher or lower or the same? Due to legilsation making it safer and legal, abortion has skyrocketed! I think this truth is pretty common knowledge. If a woman harms herself thru attempting to self abort, I am very sorry for her. However, it was her choice. She had a choice. The baby has no choice and abortion would take away every choice it could ever have.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, again it is a matter of where one wants to put one's loyalty and trust - in the opinions and emotions of men and women, or in the Word of YHWH. I personally take Soddom & Gommorah and Revelation, etc. as stern warnings. Others think they are not to be taken seriously. Their choice.

I am not ultra concerned about the heart of the one who wants to murder me, but does not do so because there is a law protecting me. I live! That's what is ultra important to me!

I am not Black, but I have a relative who is mixed. Okay, the laws have changed so that she can eat where she wants and have pretty equal privileges to white people. Should we repeal those laws because some people still harbor hatred in their hearts? Of course not! The laws benefit and protect her regardless of what is in the heart of predjudiced people.

Why do people seem to think it is pointless to have laws if the heart isn't changed? I've never seen a single law that said a heart had to be anything one way or another. All the laws I've ever seen have to do with outward manifestations. Laws are to some extent to protect people from the consequences of evil hearts!

L'Ange
Jun 11th 2009, 08:31 PM
Good thing we aren't Jewish. I think I will stick to the 2 that Jesus gave Christians...;)

Good to see ya Bill!:D
Those two laws were not something new that Yahshua gave to His followers. He spoke of them when He was asked to tell which laws in the Torah were the most important. He quoted right out of the "Old" Testament to give His answer.

Yes, Love YHWH with all your heart and mind and resources & Love others as yourself are from the Torah, the "Old" Testament, not new laws that sweep away everything else.

Yahshua said He did not come to destroy the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them. He said not one jot or title of the Law would be done away with until all was fulfilled. For example, He became the sacrificial Lamb of Isaiah 53. However, all has not been fulfilled. For example, He as not returned to set up His Kingdom.

Did He do away with "Thou shalt not commit murder" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery" for example? No way! He upheld them and stated that to sin in the heart in those ways was just the same as to sin outwardly.

YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever.

crawfish
Jun 12th 2009, 01:36 AM
He was legislating morality because He was constantly infuriated by the "hardness of heart" of the people.

I don't think so. If you consider that OT law is overly concerned with morality, then it brings up some interesting questions as to what morality really is. Jeffinator has posted a lot of relevant posts on this topic - things like slavery, polygamy and a host of other behaviors we would call immoral are not condemned.

In fact, the "hardness of heart" mentioned by Christ is evidence of this. God's chief purpose was to build a unique, separate and dedicated community to Him in order that the messiah could be delivered to the rest of the world. He permitted certain immoral behaviors in order to facilitate that community.

ZAB
Jun 12th 2009, 02:32 PM
Thanks everyone for your replies and interesting thoughts.
Basically, if we cannot consciously enforce morality via the laws that we make, is there even a point in such laws? I believe so, if for no other reason than for the protection of society. So what about laws prohibiting gay marriage and abortion? Is this a hazard to society? Morally, of course, but what about for safety's sake?
Any thoughts?

Firefighter
Jun 12th 2009, 02:57 PM
In my opinion, that and several other "hot button topics" for Christians are nothing more than a distraction that keep us from doing what we are supposed to... making disciples.

decrumpit
Jun 12th 2009, 03:40 PM
In my opinion, that and several other "hot button topics" for Christians are nothing more than a distraction that keep us from doing what we are supposed to... making disciples.

Amen!

If we were to spend half the time spreading the gospel and serving others as we did politicking and legislating, we would have a better country!

Look at the typical "anti-sodomy" laws. Now, whether these laws are on the books is one thing. We see that people simply don't want to follow the laws, and will vote and act accordingly. Morality has been legislated, but if people don't want to follow it, they will just change it.

It's hopeless to try and legislate morality, in my opinion.

ZAB
Jun 12th 2009, 06:14 PM
In my opinion, that and several other "hot button topics" for Christians are nothing more than a distraction that keep us from doing what we are supposed to... making disciples.


I agree. We seem to concentrate on the effect of immorality, rather than on the cause. To "make disciples of all nations" would certainly birth a glorious effect on society. Then we wouldn't need to worry about "moral" legislation.

L'Ange
Jun 13th 2009, 11:37 AM
Thanks everyone for your replies and interesting thoughts.
Basically, if we cannot consciously enforce morality via the laws that we make, is there even a point in such laws? I believe so, if for no other reason than for the protection of society. So what about laws prohibiting gay marriage and abortion? Is this a hazard to society? Morally, of course, but what about for safety's sake?
Any thoughts?

Is abortion a hazard to society? Let's back up there a bit fella. Is it a hazard to the babies? It kills babies. More and more commonly, fully viable, healthy babies, too. The shedding of innocent blood is the thing that Scriptures show YHWH hates the most. He would bring foreign nations against Israel when she sacrificed her babies in the fires. (Think Moslems and how they call America the Great Satan and want to destroy it.) So, yes, I think abortion is a hazard to society also because it will bring on the wrath of YHWH.

As far as gay marraiges are concerned, ditto. Scriptures show that any kind of gross sexual immorality (not just gayness by any means) will bring on judgment from YHWH. Therefore the smart and responsible thing to do, if one wants to obey the Word and not follow after the world is to vote against legilslation that permits gay marraige.

Having said all that, however, I do not think we should be condeming gay people in our hearts. Of course not. I am one who believes that it is not (at least not generally) something people just up and choose for themselves. This is a cursed planet, the human body has suffered much genetic damage, and there is a lot of wierd stuff out there in the food supplies - even in things like plastics - that are majorly messing with people's hormones. Not to mention some people have been abused as children and this can cause them to deviate from the normal path.

Making laws to support such problems, however, is going to be counter productive. People with such problems need love, compassion, prayer and (if they will accept it) help, not what is basically an ignoring of their problem, and treating it as if it is okay or even desireable.
It is not. Not according to YHWH anyway.

L'Ange
Jun 13th 2009, 11:44 AM
I agree. We seem to concentrate on the effect of immorality, rather than on the cause. To "make disciples of all nations" would certainly birth a glorious effect on society. Then we wouldn't need to worry about "moral" legislation.

We will always need to worry about the morality of legislation. Yes, indeed we should be praying more for people and evangelizing. Yes, prayer is far more important than legilslation, prayer for gays, for abortionists, etc.

However, Yahshua let us know that most people are not going to make it into Heaven. Sad, but that is what He said, not me. Therefore we cannot realistically expect that just by enough prayer and evangelism we will win all souls and change the world so there is no more need for laws that protect us from the evil that is in human hearts.

When we vote, when we instigate and/or support legislation, it is our duty to do so in ways that Scriptures show us are YHWH's ways.

ZAB
Jun 13th 2009, 01:07 PM
Is abortion a hazard to society? Let's back up there a bit fella. Is it a hazard to the babies? It kills babies. More and more commonly, fully viable, healthy babies, too. The shedding of innocent blood is the thing that Scriptures show YHWH hates the most. He would bring foreign nations against Israel when she sacrificed her babies in the fires. (Think Moslems and how they call America the Great Satan and want to destroy it.) So, yes, I think abortion is a hazard to society also because it will bring on the wrath of YHWH.

Of course abortion is hazardous to babies, I completely agree. The whole abortion argument seems to be "when" life begins. But, we know from Scripture that the Lord knew us even before we were grown in the womb (Jer 1:5). Life begins at conception. For the record, I am completely against abortion of any kind, and have 2 beautiful baby boys myself. I will continue to argue and vote against such barbaric legislation, until Jesus comes!
I simply want to get behind the rationale of the other side. How could people consciously believe that killing babies is an OK practice? Alot of it is probably based on the idea that, in doing so, there is no visible damage to society.


As far as gay marriages are concerned, ditto. Scriptures show that any kind of gross sexual immorality (not just gayness by any means) will bring on judgment from YHWH. Therefore the smart and responsible thing to do, if one wants to obey the Word and not follow after the world is to vote against legislation that permits gay marriage.

Yes. That would be the moral decision. Again, I think society accepts such behavior because there is no visible damage to society connected to it (other than AIDS and the like, but that is spreadable heterosexually too).


Having said all that, however, I do not think we should be condemning gay people in our hearts. Of course not. I am one who believes that it is not (at least not generally) something people just up and choose for themselves. This is a cursed planet, the human body has suffered much genetic damage, and there is a lot of weird stuff out there in the food supplies - even in things like plastics - that are majorly messing with people's hormones. Not to mention some people have been abused as children and this can cause them to deviate from the normal path.

I think there is a balance between being born "into sin" (Ps 51:5), and choosing to participate in a certain sin that one has a proclivity towards, either by environment, abuse, etc (Ps 119:109).

ZAB
Jun 13th 2009, 01:10 PM
We will always need to worry about the morality of legislation. Yes, indeed we should be praying more for people and evangelizing. Yes, prayer is far more important than legilslation, prayer for gays, for abortionists, etc.

However, Yahshua let us know that most people are not going to make it into Heaven. Sad, but that is what He said, not me. Therefore we cannot realistically expect that just by enough prayer and evangelism we will win all souls and change the world so there is no more need for laws that protect us from the evil that is in human hearts.

When we vote, when we instigate and/or support legislation, it is our duty to do so in ways that Scriptures show us are YHWH's ways.

Yes, I was just dreaming of a perfect world (one that doesn't exist). But I'm awake now, thankyou.

Tishrei
Jun 14th 2009, 06:00 PM
I haven't read all the responses but the lead post really caught my interest.

And yes, I agree all laws are regulating behavior and we have legislated morality. For instance, and this is a good thing, our laws have legislated that there is no more separation based on color. That certainly is a moral issue and one that has changed society's views for the better. Some laws are not really moral in nature such as the speed laws. Many are moral laws that come directly from the bible such as do not steal, murder and other such laws.

Unfortunately, as we progress, our laws are moving away from morality and legislating sin such as homosexuality. In days gone by, this was an illegal activity.

What it eventually boils down to is that the laws are reflective of the 'climate' of society. What we allow legally today was unheard of a mere 50-60 years ago. What was immoral back then is now considered moral. Our laws now reflect that.

p.s. hope I didn't ramble too much :(

Jude
Jul 16th 2009, 10:01 PM
I don't think that legislating morality is necessarily a bad thing; however, the question is "whose morality"?

I have certainly met Christians who would enforce moral stances that I would not. Opinions vary wildly on what "moral" behavior is, even among Christians of a single denomination or group. What happens when those in power legislate morality as an attempt to control behavior?

Of course, I'm one who thinks the best government is the one that stays out of our lives as much as possible.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u298/hogndog/corsses2.jpg

There is normal and not normal + there is moral and immoral + there is Sodomy and Homosexuality. Say wait a minute, since when did Sodomy become Homosexuality...

In San Fransisco there is a parade "Proud to be a Sodomites"

http://americansfortruth.com/news/san-francisco-values-on-display-as-open-sex-acts-and-nudity-are-common-at-folson-street-fair.html

Christ came into this world to save sinners of whom I am chief.

I Timothy 1: 15

Jude

The Mighty Sword
Jul 16th 2009, 11:29 PM
In this world if we can't legislate Immorality, how can we legislate Morality.
Men are marrying men. There is no more legislation.

Ayala
Jul 16th 2009, 11:39 PM
If the godly man does not step up to bring morality to law, others will step up to legislate their lack thereof.

livingwaters
Jul 17th 2009, 12:13 AM
:pray::pray:Pray without ceasing is how the Word puts it.....the fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much....God often turned nations around because of the prayer of HIS children....I don't think HE changed since then....we, as Christians know that the world won't be perfect until Jesus comes and we can reside in a Kingdom with no sin, but we must still pray for our nation, as we don't know when Jesus will return...we still need to try and voice our opinions and vote for what our country was founded on ------ God!!!

I want this nation to be around till all can be saved....of couse we know that is God's wish as well, since HE sent Jesus to die for all of mankind's sin and offer them HIS free gift of salvation....that is why God is so long-suffering, so none should perish....I have family who are not saved and I surely pray each day for this nation---I pray that changes will be made by Christian judges, officials, and all those in power who have a say-so over wrong and right, so that my children and their children can have some type of laws advocating morals which will help to guide them, until they come to know Jesus....instead of what is being advocated now--which is, "do whatever you want to, there aren't any consequences"---so, LET US PRAY AND VOTE FOR CHRISTIAN JUDGES!!!!! LET US ALL PRAY FOR OUR NATION!!! Alleluia!!!:pp:pp:pp:pp

decrumpit
Jul 18th 2009, 03:35 PM
What it eventually boils down to is that the laws are reflective of the 'climate' of society. What we allow legally today was unheard of a mere 50-60 years ago. What was immoral back then is now considered moral. Our laws now reflect that.

What a great distraction. Focus on the representatives rather than the electors! Sadly you nail it right on the head.


If the godly man does not step up to bring morality to law, others will step up to legislate their lack thereof.

In 1950, a gay marriage amendment would not even be considered for the ballot. It would be simply unheard of. But the government structure hasn't changed. The nation itself changed. We are a republic - we are represented by our leaders. Our leaders are acting in accord with their supporters.

We need to work up, not down.

We had laws, and they changed. Sadly, the PEOPLE changed.

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