I've heard (from two Christians who I trust) that Freemasonry can bring a curse into a family. My brother goes so far as to say that anyone involved in masons is not a Christian. Apparently it's a really bad thing...

I don't know much about masons, although the whole thing seems odd to me. Does anyone here know anything about this?

The question behind this is--two of my sisters-in-law were in Rainbow Girls, and they just got my youngest sister-in-law initiated. She's 11. Is this a bad thing? She doesn't need anything else going against her; her life is hard enough as it is. I'm not sure if I should be worried or not.

Just looking for insight. Thanks!

Life is full of trials. :hug:

Being a Mason is kinda like being a Christian Democrat (which I am) - the two don't always seem to mix well, appearances can be deceiving, and everyone seems to have differing opinions as to just what one is.

I don't know if that helps, but I've never met a Rainbow Girl I thought was likely to either kill me or ruin my Christian faith. :hug:

I wouldn't worry about your sister-in-law...the things that Rainbow Girls teach are positive things like poise, public speaking, accepting responsibility and coming through with what you promise, etc. Being in the Rainbow Girls is the reason I know some hymns by heart, as well as some Bible passages, which is impressive for someone who never went to church at that time :)

I am a long-time Mason and Shriner, as well as a Christian. My daughter is a Rainbow Girl.

The only time I've ever been cursed is when I've accidentally cut someone off in traffic.

My grandmother was Worthy Grand Matron in the Eastern Star, and my dad is a 32d (non active) Mason in the Scottish Rite, and no one in my family believes there's any issues with it, though I've had pleanty of people tell me otherwise. We just choose not to talk about it.

I woulda probably been a Rainbow Girl if I wasn't a Tom-Boy. I think my grandmother knew there was no way she'd ever get me into all those dresses. lol

I would love to see what part of the New Testament it is that teaches a Christian can be cursed. Christians, even ones you trust can be wrong. I would definitely ask them for scriptural backing.

I am not saying that Masons are right or wrong, merely that a Christian cannot be cursed by my understanding of scriptures.

I wanted to curse at a couple of masons that screwed up a retaining wall I was having built.

:D

At entry level F Masonry looks quite "kosher" but the higher the ranking, the more secretive the organization becomes.

The initiation is also not quite "kosher" ....

The god of FM is called Jabulon...

.... and Yes, there are bad things happening to families of those who belong to FM...

I wanted to curse at a couple of masons that screwed up a retaining wall I was having built.

:D

:rofl: (I nearly choked on a sip of water. :lol:)

No offense to anyone, but I've always found the secretive things of freemasonry very creepy. It reminds me of Mormonism (whom, by the way, consider themselves to be Christian as well). I don't think any good can come out of an organization that keeps secrets like that.

On a different strand of thought, though, I got to visit the Coral Castle in Florida that was built by a high ranking Freemason who was attempting to prove that the secrets of the Masons are true. He moved 26 ton slabs of coral by himself. No one knows how he did it, but scientists today think he might have manipulated the magnetism of the objects to repel the ground so that the coral literally levitated from the ground without any effort on his part.
THAT was very interesting. But the secrets and symbols were still creepy.

I would love to see what part of the New Testament it is that teaches a Christian can be cursed. Christians, even ones you trust can be wrong. I would definitely ask them for scriptural backing.

I am not saying that Masons are right or wrong, merely that a Christian cannot be cursed by my understanding of scriptures.

I think the term cursed was used wrongly here. I think the better question would be "Can being involved in the Masons open a door to demonic activity in ones life?"

At entry level F Masonry looks quite "kosher" but the higher the ranking, the more secretive the organization becomes.

The initiation is also not quite "kosher" ....

The god of FM is called Jabulon...

.... and Yes, there are bad things happening to families of those who belong to FM...

I have problems with the Free Masons as well. Jesus is Lord. Jesus is the only Lord. John Ankerberg has some wonderful material available about the Free Masons. He has information from several members that left the lodge. One was the highest ranking Mason in the U.S.

Here is a link to some info. on the lodge.
http://www.whatisfreemasonry.com/

I copied this from the link above...


"[Masonry is] ... the custodian and depository (since Enoch) of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large...." Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, by Albert Pike, Washington D.C., 1958, p. 210.

Do they mean the same Enoch that "walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."? The reason I ask, is because he is supposed to have also written a book about the watchers, who are supposedly the fallen angels who taught men before the flood things they weren't supposed to know. (You either believe this or you don't.) I just find it interesting that the Masons say "since Enoch".

Interesting, but I trust those sites about as much as I trust an athiest writing about what I believe in Christ. Better to go to a Freemason website. Or, pick up those books that he's quoting here and read them.

Now look up the Illuminati! They're about as much fun to research as the Freemasons. Very secretive and suspicious. Some say they're connected with the Freemasons!

I think the term cursed was used wrongly here. I think the better question would be "Can being involved in the Masons open a door to demonic activity in ones life?"

Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you for clarifying for me.

Thanks to all of you for the links and thoughts.

At entry level F Masonry looks quite "kosher" but the higher the ranking, the more secretive the organization becomes.

The organization does not become "secretive" as one advances in Masonry. There are traditional "secrets" in the fraternity, but these are actually more historical in nature than anything else, and are probably the least important aspect of Freemasonry.



The god of FM is called Jabulon...

There is no "god of FM", and nowhere in Freemasonry is God referred to as "Jabulon".


.... and Yes, there are bad things happening to families of those who belong to FM...

Bad things happen to everybody, regardless of one holding membership in clubs and fraternal organizations.

I have problems with the Free Masons as well. Jesus is Lord. Jesus is the only Lord. John Ankerberg has some wonderful material available about the Free Masons. He has information from several members that left the lodge. One was the highest ranking Mason in the U.S.

There is not a "highest ranking Mason in the US". I am familiar with most of Ankerberg's anti-Masonic material, but I've never seen his work endorsed by anyone who could be considered a "high ranking Mason".

Who is Jabulon then? He is referenced quite often in Masonic works.

I am good friends with a mason who is very high ranking. He is still loyal to the lodge. He will not go into detail, but he even admits to me that the higher he progresses in the lodge, the more and more problems he has with the beliefs of the lodge.

What do the masons teach on salvation? What is the way to eternal life according to the published works of the lodge?

http://www.mastermason.com/jjcrowder/threedegrees/threedegrees.htm

This website is very pro-mason and it not seeking in any way to discredit Masons. Read it carefully and see if there are not several things that scream contradiction to the ways of Christianity.
Keep in mind that Jesus is Lord. He is not generic, He is Jesus Christ!

Whoa. Parts of that website make me want to throw up. Hoodwink???

Who is Jabulon then? He is referenced quite often in Masonic works.

Actually, "Jabulon" is referenced in anti-Masonic works, not Masonic ones. According to Arturo DeHoyos' book "Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry", Jabulon was originally a fictional character in a degree in an older French Masonic rite, who was part of an expedition to discover treasure in the ruins of Solomon's Temple. As different degrees developed, as he was a hero in the story, the name was sometimes used as the degree's password. It has never been confused with the name of God in Freemasonry.


I am good friends with a mason who is very high ranking. He is still loyal to the lodge. He will not go into detail, but he even admits to me that the higher he progresses in the lodge, the more and more problems he has with the beliefs of the lodge.

If that's the way he feels, he should resign. However, this ancedotal story doesn't make sense to me because Masons don't really "progress higher" in the Lodge after they become members. A Mason is a Mason, not any "higher" than any other of his Lodge brothers. Since he supposedly is active in Masonry, he would know this.


What do the masons teach on salvation?

Fraternities and sororities do not teach salvation.


What is the way to eternal life according to the published works of the lodge?

Lodges do not publish works teachings methods of salvation.

Lodges do not publish works teachings methods of salvation.
How does the lodge teach one gains gains entrance into the afterlife?

You say that masons are all equal. However, it is an absolute falacy to say that they are equal in the amount of knowledge they are privy to.


It does not bother you that the masons offer prayer to a god who could be any god. They do not pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.

I find it odd that Jabulon is referenced extensively by masons if he has no part in their doctrine.

How does the lodge teach one gains gains entrance into the afterlife?

It doesn't.


You say that masons are all equal. However, it is an absolute falacy to say that they are equal in the amount of knowledge they are privy to.

The same is true for everybody, but that has nothing to do with Freemasonry.



It does not bother you that the masons offer prayer to a god who could be any god. They do not pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.

Lodges are opened in prayers addressed to God, in the same manner as other secular organizations who open in prayer (for example, the US Congress). Congress is composed of mostly Christians, some Jews, and one Muslim US Representative. They each participate in the prayer addressed to God.

Same thing in Masonic Lodges.


I find it odd that Jabulon is referenced extensively by masons if he has no part in their doctrine.

I find it odd that you say that Jabulon is "referenced extensively" by Masons. Precisely which Masons are you talking about?

I am a long-time Mason and Shriner, as well as a Christian. My daughter is a Rainbow Girl.

The only time I've ever been cursed is when I've accidentally cut someone off in traffic.

Romans 8:31
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

It doesn't.



The same is true for everybody, but that has nothing to do with Freemasonry.



Lodges are opened in prayers addressed to God, in the same manner as other secular organizations who open in prayer (for example, the US Congress). Congress is composed of mostly Christians, some Jews, and one Muslim US Representative. They each participate in the prayer addressed to God.

Same thing in Masonic Lodges.



I find it odd that you say that Jabulon is "referenced extensively" by Masons. Precisely which Masons are you talking about?

First website I posted has reference to Jabulon.

So, you are saying that masons have absolutely no teaching about "gaining admission to the celestial lodge above, where the supreme architect resides." I guess I just made that up then since you say that it is not true. ;)

Did you read my second link? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

First website I posted has reference to Jabulon.

I missed that, but you said it was "referenced extensively" by Masons. I've read a lot of Masonic material in my day, but "Jabulon" pops up usually only in anti-Masonic material.

The fiction that Masons worship a god by that name seems to have originated in an anti-Masonic work called "Darkness Visible" by Walter Hannah. According to the book, and the anti-Masonic works that reference it, Jabulon is revealed as a name of God in the Royal Arch degree.

The fact of the matter is quite different. I'm well aware of the Royal Arch degree ritual, having participated in it many times. I'm also aware of previous versions of the ritual, none of which make any claim that Jabulon is a name of God. The accusation is simply false.


So, you are saying that masons have absolutely no teaching about "gaining admission to the celestial lodge above, where the supreme architect resides." I guess I just made that up then since you say that it is not true. ;)

I didn't say that, I said that no method of attaining it is given.


Did you read my second link? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

By the Lord's Prayer (which, by the way, is used in Freemasonry).

I didn't say that, I said that no method of attaining it is given.



By the Lord's Prayer (which, by the way, is used in Freemasonry).

The Lord's prayer is an old Covenant prayer. Jesus was on Earth when that was prayed. How did Jesus say to pray? In His name to the Father. What would happen if you offered a prayer In the Name of Jesus in the Masonic lodge?

The lodge does not teach that admission to the celestial lodge is attained by "purity of life and conduct"?

The Lord's prayer is an old Covenant prayer.

No it's not. He specifically instructed us to pray in a such a manner.


What would happen if you offered a prayer In the Name of Jesus in the Masonic lodge?

It actually happens all the time, especially when the Chaplain gives the blessing over the meal, and does not use the standard ceremonial prayer. Obviously, if Jewish members were present, the prayer should be non-sectarian.


The lodge does not teach that admission to the celestial lodge is attained by "purity of life and conduct"?

No, but the Lodge *does* teach that purity of life and conduct is a necessary component. Anyone who thinks that they can behave immorally and still be in a state of grace just because they are professing Christians is deceived. Jesus made it plainly clear that our actions do play a role in our eternal destiny, and that He would use our actions as the criteria for separating the sheep and the goats.

Knight Templar, Yabulon, is the unutterable name of the god of FM... only when you get to the top three ranks do you pronounce that.... if you are a FM< what is your degree?

I ask, because I know more than I need to :(

No it's not. He specifically instructed us to pray in a such a manner.





No, but the Lodge *does* teach that purity of life and conduct is a necessary component. Anyone who thinks that they can behave immorally and still be in a state of grace just because they are professing Christians is deceived. Jesus made it plainly clear that our actions do play a role in our eternal destiny, and that He would use our actions as the criteria for separating the sheep and the goats.

The Lords prayer, or the Model prayer, was to be prayed while Jesus was on this Earth. There is nothing wrong with praying it now, but unless we prayed the model prayer in the authority of Jesus name, it is not a new covenant prayer. Even prayed in the authority of the name of Jesus, there are still elements of it that meake it Obviously Old Covenant. Jesus plainly tells us that we are to petition the Father in His name. Are you saing that it is OK to pray in the name of Jesus in the lodge as long as it does not offend anyone? What does jesus say about being ashamed of Him?

You are saying that our works are an essential element of our Justification? Justification is by works? Actually, purity of life and conduct is not a necessary element of salvation. Being washed in the blood is the necessary element for salvation. Should a Christian live in sin so that Grace abound? As Paul said, God forbid. However, purity of life and conduct is not necessary for salvation.

Templar,

Does it not bother you that Mason's take oaths? To make it even worse, some of their oaths are blood oaths. They promise bloodshed for the violation of the oath. Jesus strictly forbade us from taking oaths. Please do not say Masons no longer take oaths.:lol:

It seems to me that so far your defense is that the Masons are wrong, but a lot of other groups are also, so it must be alright.

Knight Templar, Yabulon, is the unutterable name of the god of FM... only when you get to the top three ranks do you pronounce that....

This is incorrect, and there is no "god of freemasonry", named Yabulon, Jabulon, or anything else.


if you are a FM< what is your degree?



I am a Master Mason, and Past Master in my Lodge. In the Scottish Rite, I am a 32° Knight Commander of the Court of Honour, and in the York Rite I am a Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, and Knight Crusader of the Cross. I'm also a Shriner and Tall Cedar, and belong to several other Masonic organizations you've probably never heard of.


I ask, because I know more than I need to

Judging from your post, you have been seriously misinformed.

The Lords prayer, or the Model prayer, was to be prayed while Jesus was on this Earth.

This is an unusual interpretation (i.e., that Jesus would would give us an example of how to pray, but it would only be in effect for a few months, and nobody would become aware of it until after it expired). While you're free hold it, it is not one held by mainstream Christians, who consider the Lord's Prayer to be a Christian prayer, and which has traditionally been an important part of Christian worship.


Are you saing that it is OK to pray in the name of Jesus in the lodge as long as it does not offend anyone?

I'm saying that Masons observe common courtesy.


However, purity of life and conduct is not necessary for salvation.

What did Jesus say?

"Unless your righteousness exceeds that of Pharisees, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven."

Do you think he was just joking?

I think a lot of people who hold to this "no works" doctrine are going to be in for a big surprise.

This is an unusual interpretation (i.e., that Jesus would would give us an example of how to pray, but it would only be in effect for a few months, and nobody would become aware of it until after it expired). While you're free hold it, it is not one held by mainstream Christians, who consider the Lord's Prayer to be a Christian prayer, and which has traditionally been an important part of Christian worship.



I'm saying that Masons observe common courtesy.



What did Jesus say?

"Unless your righteousness exceeds that of Pharisees, you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven."

Do you think he was just joking?

I think a lot of people who hold to this "no works" doctrine are going to be in for a big surprise.

You are saying that salvation is through works, not grace alone?
The passage you reference about righteousness of the pharisees is dealing with self righteousness. My righteousness greatly exceeds the righteousness of the pharisees because I hold positional righteousness given me from the shed blood of my savior.

The model prayer is not a new covenant prayer prayed just as written. It is a new covenant prayer when prayed in the name of Jesus.

You are saying it is indecent to honour the name of our Lord and Savior?

Lousiana Masonic Monitor *

The *Louisiana Masonic Monitor* begins with a title page on which three quotations appear:
"Let there be light." -- Gen. 1:3
"There never was a false god, nor was there ever a really false religion, unless you call a child a false man." -- Max Muller "Every age has a religion suited to its capacity." -- Albert Pike

Templar,
Do you have a problem with anything said above?

ALBERT PIKE: LUCIFER IS GOD

What are the lies which the Lodge is designed to conceal? Why, if the Lodge is such a noble organization, does it need to deceive others? The truth is that the lies are necessary to conceal that Lucifer is the god of the Lodge and that all worship in the Lodge is the worship of Satan himself.
Every cult has its god. Every occultic society has its god. This is what is being covered up: the identity of the god of Freemasonry. Albert Pike re- vealed this in a speach given July 14, 1889, as Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World of Freemasonry in Paris, France:
"That which we must say to the crowd is -- We worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees -- The Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine. If Lucifer were not god, would Adonay, (the God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priest, calumniate him?
Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods: darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil." (Reference: "Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World", Albert Pike, Grand Commander, Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry, July 14, 1889, Reported by A.C. De La Rive, *La Femme et L'Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerie Universelle* p.588

In *Morals and Dogma*, Albert Pike stated: "All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kaballa and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kaballa; ALL MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS OWE TO IT THEIR SECRETS AND SYMBOLS." (p.744)


Templar, Freemasonry is not sounding very compatible with Christianity to me.

In *Morals and Dogma*, Albert Pike stated: "All truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kaballa and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kaballa; ALL MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS OWE TO IT THEIR SECRETS AND SYMBOLS." (p.744)


Templar, Freemasonry is not sounding very compatible with Christianity to me.
... Personally, I have chosen to avoid such organizations because what the scriptures teach. The Bible has always taught that evil men operate in the dark (in secret) and that the good man performs all that he does in the light, where there are no secrets.
... I am friends with a Free Mason and he is a good man but the secrecy of this "club" will, forever, turn me away from it. I've chosen to follow Jesus and Jesus never hid or held meetings in secret and that is the example I wil follow. Many will choose differently but in my house, we serve the LORD.

You are saying that salvation is through works, not grace alone?

I am saying that faith without works is dead.




You are saying it is indecent to honour the name of our Lord and Savior?

That is an obvious twisting of what I said, and is not worthy of a reply.


ALBERT PIKE: LUCIFER IS GOD

Do you believe it is morally justified to bear false witness? Even the most minute amount of honest research reveals that this is not only a hoax, but a very famous one. In fact, last year, US News ran a special issue last year on "The Art of Hoaxes", and the anti-Masonic Pike/Lucifer hoax was included:

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/www/Masonry/Essays/usnews020826.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax

Will you be honest enough to retract your statement? Most critics of Freemasonry are not.

I am saying that faith without works is dead.



That is an obvious twisting of what I said, and is not worthy of a reply.



Do you believe it is morally justified to bear false witness? Even the most minute amount of honest research reveals that this is not only a hoax, but a very famous one. In fact, last year, US News ran a special issue last year on "The Art of Hoaxes", and the anti-Masonic Pike/Lucifer hoax was included:

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/www/Masonry/Essays/usnews020826.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxil_hoax

Will you be honest enough to retract your statement? Most critics of Freemasonry are not.

The sources I have on it do not seem to think it was a hoax. The Roman Catholic Church does not seem to think it a hoax. The sources you cited say it is a hoax, but do not offer true evidence that it was.

Faith without works is dead, but works are not required for salvation.

I have not twisted anything you have said.

There are still several questions you chose not to answer.

The sources I have on it do not seem to think it was a hoax.

I have not seen you list any credible sources, so I would be interested in where exactly this information comes from.


The Roman Catholic Church does not seem to think it a hoax.

The Roman Catholic Church admitted the hoax over a hundred years. From the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

Of a different type is the most notorious imposture of modern times, that of "Léo Taxil" and "Diana. Vaughan"....he soon proceeded to publish a series of pretended exposures of the practices of Freemasonry, and particularly of the "Satanisme" or Devil-worship with which he declared it was intimately bound up....In 1896-1897 the imposture was finally shown up and Taxil cynically admitted that Diana Vaughan was only the name of his typist.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07698b.htm

The fake Pike quote was originally published by a French anti-Masonic writer named Abel Clarin de la Rive, based on Taxil's information. After the hoax was discovered, De La Rive issued a written retraction, and publicly apologized to Pike's daughter, Lilian Pike-Roone, for having slandered her late father.

That of course has never stopped modern anti-Masons from using it, as their primary agenda is to destroy the fraternity by deceiving the gullible.



I have not twisted anything you have said.

Then do you retract your statement: "You are saying it is indecent to honour the name of our Lord and Savior?"


There are still several questions you chose not to answer.

I think I've patiently answered your questions in good faith, although I'm still waiting for you to answer mine, where you claimed that the word "Jabulon" is "extensively referenced" by Masonic writers. Again, where exactly is this "extensively referenced" by Masons?

I think I've patiently answered your questions in good faith, although I'm still waiting for you to answer mine, where you claimed that the word "Jabulon" is "extensively referenced" by Masonic writers. Again, where exactly is this "extensively referenced" by Masons?

The first link tells you where Jabulon is referenced.

You have still not answered the question of the oaths Mason's.
You have not addressed the quotes I listed from Masonic Materials either.

The first link tells you where Jabulon is referenced.

You said it was "extensively referenced by Masons", insinuating that the false claim that it is somehow the name of a Masonic god is correct. Both claims are untrue.


You have still not answered the question of the oaths Mason's.
You have not addressed the quotes I listed from Masonic Materials either.

And you have not addressed the issue of having borne false witness against Albert Pike, a fellow Christian, who was a member and Communicant of Christ Episcopal Church. Yet it doesn't even seem to bother you.

I have not borne false witness against anyone. I gave you a quote and the citation is at the end of the quotation. I did not write the quotation, I cited it.

I am compiling the sources for Jabulon if you will have a bit of patience.:lol:

You still have not addressed the oaths taken by masons which are in direct violation of the commands of Our Lord and Savior.

You also refuse to address the quotation about religions and the excerpt from Masonic material I posted.

I am compiling the sources for Jabulon if you will have a bit of patience.

OK, fair enough.


You still have not addressed the oaths taken by masons which are in direct violation of the commands of Our Lord and Savior.

It is the position of the Church that oaths may be taken by Christians. For example, before one can serve on a jury or testify in court, he will be bound by oath, or in entering military service.

Furthermore, God placed himself under the oath numerous times in the Old Testament, and the Apostle Paul likewise placed himself under oath numerous times in the New Testament.


You also refuse to address the quotation about religions and the except from Masonic material I posted.

The problem with criticis of Freemasonry quoting Masonic writers is this: they only quote the Masons they disagree with, and ignore the millions of other Masons who would disagree with those quotes.

For example, you quote Max Muller as saying "There never was a false god, nor was there ever a really false religion, unless you call a child a false man." Muller was a famous German philosopher who specialized in comparative religion. But his opinions and conclusions drawn from his work have nothing to do with other Masons, and you will find many more Masons who disagree with his quote, than would agree with it.

Therefore, it's a red herring. Muller's opinions, as well as Pike's, are...well...Muller's and Pike's. They do not represent the majority view of Freemasons.

Hi Knight (and others)...Below are the parts from the website that was posted earlier that I found most disturbing. Are they accurate? Do they bother you at all? I hear masons say that masonry is not a religion; why the emphasis on the altar? I'm just trying to understand. The hoodwink especially makes me feel queasy. Feeling queasy isn't a good basis for discernment...but why the emphasis on secrecy and darkness?

Thanks for your thoughts, and God bless you.

This is from the website:

THE HOODWINK
The symbolism of the hoodwink is twofold: first, it emphasizes the veil of secrecy and silence surrounding the mysteries of Freemasonry; secondly, it represents the mystical darkness, or ignorance, of the uninitiated. It is removed at the appropriate time; that is, when the candidate is in the proper attitude to receive Light.
THE CABLE-TOW
The Cable-Tow is a rope such as would be used to tow or restrain. It is also generally regarded as a symbol of the voluntary and complete acceptance of, and pledged compliance with, whatever Masonry may have in store. To many, the Cable-Tow is symbolic of the umbilical cord, which is necessary to begin life; but is severed when love and care replace it, and the individual grows on his own. The length of the Cable-Tow is frequently referred to in the language of Freemasonry, but many of the new Brethren do not understand its meaning. Formerly, a Cable-Tow was deemed to be the distance one could travel in an hour, which was assumed to be about three miles. In California this is any reasonable distance from which a summons may be answered, health and business permitting. Each Mason is bound to all other Masons by a tie as long and as strong as he himself determines his ability will permit. One may also consider the idea of the silver cord (Ecclesiastes 12:6) and the Cable-Tow.


KNEELING AT THE ALTAR

The central piece of furniture in the Lodge is the Altar. The Altar is symbolic of many things. As a temple symbolizes the presence of Deity, the altar symbolizes the point of contact. Its location in the center of the Lodge also symbolizes the place which God has in Masonry, and which he should have in every Mason’s life. It is also a symbol of worship and faith. The candidate approaches the Altar in search of light and assumes his obligations there. In the presence of God and his Brethren, he offers himself to the service of the Supreme Architect of the Universe and to mankind in general. The Altar is the point on which life in our Masonic Lodges is focused and it should be accorded the highest respect.
The wisdom of the Master is said to flow from his station in the East to the Altar. Thus, one should never cross between the Master’s Station and the Altar when a Lodge is in session.

Hi Knight (and others)...Below are the parts from the website that was posted earlier that I found most disturbing. Are they accurate? Do they bother you at all?

The description itself is reasonably accurate, although I do not fully agree with much of that writer's interpretation of those particular symbols.

Freemasonry is sort of a dramatic introduction to the principles of the Enlightenment, which was the intellectual movement that formed the bridge between the middle ages and the modern age. The ritual of Freemasonry is composed largely of allegories concerning this movement and its ideas.

The coming from "darkness to light" represents the movement from the dark ages into the age of enlightenment. The cable-tow represents the bonds of despotic political forces which are rent asunder by the advent of democracy.


I hear masons say that masonry is not a religion; why the emphasis on the altar?

This is actually a variation. In American Lodges, the altar is in the center of the room. On top of it are found the "three great lights of Masonry", namely, a Bible, a mason's sqaure, and a compass.

In English Lodges, there aren't any altars. Instead, the Bible, square, and compass are placed upon a pedestal in front of the presiding officer's station. The lodge altar therefore is an American invention. We don't know how long it's actually been in practice, but it's been a long time. For example, during the Revolutionary War, George Washington held tent lodges, and a drum covered in the American flag served as the altar.


The hoodwink especially makes me feel queasy. Feeling queasy isn't a good basis for discernment...but why the emphasis on secrecy and darkness?

Practically all fraternities and sororities hoodwink the candidate during the ceremony of initiation. Usually, this is done to introduce in the candidate a feeling of curiousity, as well as teaching a lesson of trust. In Freemasonry though, there is a deeper meaning, i.e., that of beginning in the dark ages and emerging in the Enlightenment.

That hopefully also answers your question about darkness. It's not darkness that Masonry emphasizes, but light. The issue of secrecy stems largely from that time period as well. In Europe, it was mostly illegal to congregate and discuss many matters relating to science and philosophy, if those ideas were in opposition to the Roman Catholic Church. Secrecy was observed to protect the members of Lodges from the inquisition.

Today, secrecy in some matters is still observed from tradition, but is no longer a very important part of the fraternity outside of those traditional observances.

OK, fair enough.



It is the position of the Church that oaths may be taken by Christians. For example, before one can serve on a jury or testify in court, he will be bound by oath, or in entering military service.

Furthermore, God placed himself under the oath numerous times in the Old Testament, and the Apostle Paul likewise placed himself under oath numerous times in the New Testament.




There is a huge difference between the oaths taken by jurors and the oaths taken by masons. Some of the oaths taken by masons involve pledging to bodily harm for breaking the oath. Do you honestly think that the oaths taken by masons are acceptable considering Jesus strictly forbade it.

Just as a side note. When I testify in court, I do not swear. I affirm.

Here are some examples of where Jahbulon is referenced by masons and in masonic material.

I must admit that so far it appears that the references to Jahbulon being God are printed in antimasonic material as quotes from masons; not written in Masonic material.




According to Masonic historian Arturo de Hoyos, the word Jahbulon was first used in the 1700s in early French versions of the Royal Arch degree. It relates a Masonic allegory in which Jabulon was the name of an explorer living during the time of Solomon who discovered the ruins of an ancient temple. Within the ruins he found a gold plate upon which the name of God (Jehovah) was engraved.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_note-3)
In Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor, published in the mid 1800s, Malcolm Duncan uses the word as a recognition password in his rendition of the Royal Arch degree,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_note-4) and in a footnote states that the word is a combination of sacred names.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_note-5) However, there has been controversy regarding Duncan's ritual. [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_note-6) Some Masonic authors state that even if Duncan's ritual is authentic, it is either an outdated exposure[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_note-7) or that it had been superseded by another explanation.[9

<LI id=cite_note-a_religion.3F-0>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-a_religion.3F_0-0) "Is Freemasonry a religion? (http://www.grandlodge-england.org/masonry/A2L-religion.htm)". United Grand Lodge of England. 2002. http://www.grandlodge-england.org/masonry/A2L-religion.htm. Retrieved on 2007-05-08. <LI id=cite_note-1>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-1) Smart, Earnest (April 2005). "Faith and Freemasonry (http://www.mqmagazine.co.uk/issue-13/p-46.php)". Masonic Quarterly Magazine (13). http://www.mqmagazine.co.uk/issue-13/p-46.php. Retrieved on 2007-05-07. <LI id=cite_note-2>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-2) Medway, Gareth J. Lure of the Sinister: The Unnatural History of Satanism, New York University Press, 2001. p. 259. ISBN 0-8147-5645-X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/081475645X) <LI id=cite_note-3>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-3) Chapter Three: John Ankerberg and John Weldon, authors of The Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge (http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/deHoyos-chapter3.htm#i4) From Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry? The Methods of Anti-Masons (http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/DeHoyos.htm) by Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris] <LI id=cite_note-4>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-4) They then balance three times three, bringing the right hand with some violence down upon the left. The right hands are then raised above their heads, and the words, Jah-buh-lun, Jehovah, G-o-d, are given at low breath, each companion pronouncing the syllables or letters alternately ROYAL ARCH, OR SEVENTH DEGREE (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/royal_arch_degree.htm) Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor, by Malcolm C. Duncan, 1866 <LI id=cite_note-5>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-5) JEHOVAH. Of the varieties of this sacred name in use among the different nations of the earth, three particularly merit the attention of Royal Arch Masons:
1. JAH. This name of God is found in the 68th Psalm, v. 4.
2. BAAL OR BEL. This word signifies a lord, master, or possessor, and hence it was applied by many of the nations of the East to denote the Lord of all things, and the Master of the world.
3. ON. This was the name by which JEHOVAH was worshipped among the Egyptians.
I have made these remarks on the three names of God in Chaldaic, Syriac and Egyptian, Baal, Jah, and On, in the expectation that my Royal Arch Companions will readily recognize them in a corrupted form.--Lexicon. From footnote 226:1 in ROYAL ARCH, OR SEVENTH DEGREE (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/royal_arch_degree.htm) Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor, by Malcolm C. Duncan, 1866 <LI id=cite_note-6>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-6) According to "Turnbull, Everett R. & Denslow, Ray V., A History of Royal Arch Masonry, Volume I, p. 413, published in 1956: Duncan has the candidate swear: "I furthermore promise and swear, that I will support the Constitution of the General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States of America..." whereas the General Grand Chapter at the time styled itself: "General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons of the United States, a subtle but significant difference. <LI id=cite_note-7>^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-7) An example of this pre-1871 misunderstanding is seen in Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor (an outdated exposure cited by Rev. Ankerberg and Dr. Weldon some 30 times) which declared the tri-lingual word to be the Grand Omnific Royal Arch Word. Chapter Three: John Ankerberg and John Weldon (http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/deHoyos-chapter3.htm), Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry? The Methods of Anti-Masons, by Art deHoyos
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahbulon#cite_ref-8) With Jah and On, [Bel] has been introduced into the Royal Arch system as a representative of the Tetragrammaton, which it and the accompanying words have sometimes ignorantly been made to displace. At the session of the General Grand Chapter of the United States, in 1871, this error was corrected; and while the Tetragrammaton was declared to be the true omnific word, the other three were permitted to be retained as merely explanatory. Entry for Bel (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/b.htm), ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONRY AND ITS KINDRED SCIENCES, by ALBERT C. MACKEY M. D.

This link shows that Jahbulon does exist in freemasonry.
Is he the God of freemasonry? Seems opinions differ.
If Masonry were not so secretive, it might not be misunderstood as much as lodge members claim it is.
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

This is actually a variation. In American Lodges, the altar is in the center of the room. On top of it are found the "three great lights of Masonry", namely, a Bible, a mason's square, and a compass.

In English Lodges, there aren't any altars. Instead, the Bible, square, and compass are placed upon a pedestal...


I've heard that in some lodges, esp in other countries from the U.S. that it's not always the Bible, but can be the Koran or even the Torah. When I asked my dad about it, his only answer was, "Then they aren't true Blue Lodge."

I really appreciate you being willing to discuss this. I too have heard the accusations of the Masons being Satanic and evil, but whenever I try to ask my parents about it, things get hostile. My mom was in the Eastern Star when I was young, which was when my grandmother was Worthy Grand Matron, and all she would ever say is something about their book having quotes from the book of Ruth. Their reactions to my questions have led me to think that either they don't know enough about all this to give me a good discussion, or the accusations are founded. You have helped me out a lot already.

In my dad's defense, he decided not to stay involved with things when we were kids so that he could do more with us, like be my softball coach. I guess if he'd gone on above the 32nd degree, it would've taken a lot of time. This may be why he's not really up on Masonic things.

The thing you said about the Lord's Prayer clarified something for me too. I wasn't raised in church or as a Christian, but he insisted we all learn the Lord's Prayer early on.

There is a huge difference between the oaths taken by jurors and the oaths taken by masons. Some of the oaths taken by masons involve pledging to bodily harm for breaking the oath. Do you honestly think that the oaths taken by masons are acceptable considering Jesus strictly forbade it.



Please see what I've already written about oaths. However, on a side note, technically Masons assume obligations. An oath is the act of swearing the truth or falsehood of a thing, whereas an obligation is the voluntary promise to perform certain duties, or abstain from certain behavior.

Concerning "bodily harm", I assume you're speaking of the traditional penalties, which are themselves of very interesting historical merit. They are no longer used by many Masonic organizations. The United Grand Lodge of England eliminated them from their ritual in the early 1980's, and many more Grand Lodges followed suit. Albert Pike deleted them from the Scottish Rite rituals when he revised them in the 1870's. In his book "Morals and Dogma", he wrote:

Oaths out of all proportion with their object, shocked the candidate, and then became ridiculous, and were wholly disregarded. (Pike, "Morals and Dogma", p. 326).

Pike probably has a point, but he also doesn't seem to have been aware that the penalties were almost a verbatim copy of those from the French military oaths of the middle ages. This is interesting to historians, because the question arises: how and why did the medieval English and Scottish stonemason guilds adopt elements from the oaths of medieval French crusaders? The question has led many to look for an early Templar connection in Freemasonry.


According to Masonic historian Arturo de Hoyos, the word Jahbulon was first used in the 1700s in early French versions of the Royal Arch degree. It relates a Masonic allegory in which Jabulon was the name of an explorer living during the time of Solomon who discovered the ruins of an ancient temple. Within the ruins he found a gold plate upon which the name of God (Jehovah) was engraved.

Yes, I've already mentioned that, and referenced the work of Brother Art DeHoyos.


This link shows that Jahbulon does exist in freemasonry.
Is he the God of freemasonry? Seems opinions differ.

Opinions certainly don't differ within Freemasonry, as Masons who are familiar with the ritual know the accusation is both laughable and absurd. Your link, "Freemasonry Watch", is a conspiracy theory website, not a credible source of academic research.

I've heard that in some lodges, esp in other countries from the U.S. that it's not always the Bible, but can be the Koran or even the Torah. When I asked my dad about it, his only answer was, "Then they aren't true Blue Lodge."

All Grand Lodges require that the Bible remain open on the altar or pedestal, whichever is used. Lodges under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of Turkey and the Grand Lodge of Israel generally also have the Torah and the Qu'ran on the altar or pedestal in addition to the Bible, as Lodges in those countries have a much larger number of Jewish and Muslim members.


I too have heard the accusations of the Masons being Satanic and evil, but whenever I try to ask my parents about it, things get hostile.

It's my pleasure. It is of course probably natural for many to get to hostile when accused of something as vile as satanism, but I find it more ridiculous than offensive.


My mom was in the Eastern Star when I was young, which was when my grandmother was Worthy Grand Matron, and all she would ever say is something about their book having quotes from the book of Ruth. Their reactions to my questions have led me to think that either they don't know enough about all this to give me a good discussion, or the accusations are founded. You have helped me out a lot already.

I'm glad to hear that. The Order of Eastern Star was founded by a Kentucky Mason in the 1850's. The ceremony and teachings of the organization are based on the stories of five biblical women, one of which is Ruth.


In my dad's defense, he decided not to stay involved with things when we were kids so that he could do more with us, like be my softball coach. I guess if he'd gone on above the 32nd degree, it would've taken a lot of time. This may be why he's not really up on Masonic things.

The time needed to be involved depends on the individual. Freemasonry has always taught that a man's first duty is to God, then to his country, then to his family, and only after those requirements have been filled, to his Lodge. It is hoped that members will participate in the activities of the fraternity, but other priorities naturally come first.

I'm struck with a basic question...What's the real purpose of the masons? Do they have some kind of mission statement? What can you get from joining a masonic group that you couldn't get from, say, a church fellowship group or a neighborhood group?

Thanks again for your input, Knight and others.

Freemasonry and its associated groups (Eastern Star, Shriners and whatever) is a form of religion and it is not based on Christianity. It is a Satanic organization.

We need to come out of it if we want to serve God with everything we are.

Allowing children to be a part of the organization reminds me of the adage that when you place a frog in a kettle of cold water, set it over a fire, it will be lulled to think it is safe until the water gets too hot and kills him.

Little children need to be in God's house and in godly organizations.




By the way:I personally know a woman who has been in the Eastern Star for years and has recently come to Christ and it is being revealed as I speak that she is inhabited by many demons---she has revealed also that this so-called masonic group is really a coven and will not release her, and is following her around the country harasssing her--not to mention threatening her.

By the way, if she has come to Christ, she cannot be inhabited by any demon, and no force in hell or on earth can bind her.

But that's a whole 'nuther thread.

I am not a mason. I don't know anyone who is. But before we start accusing a fellow Christian of being involved in a satanic organization, we absolutely better know for sure what we are talking about.

Our brother Knight Templar has patiently and with respect answered many, many questions, and I greatly appreciate his kindness in doing so.

We should be very careful in our words.

By the way, if she has come to Christ, she cannot be inhabited by any demon, and no force in hell or on earth can bind her.

But that's a whole 'nuther thread.

I am not a mason. I don't know anyone who is. But before we start accusing a fellow Christian of being involved in a satanic organization, we absolutely better know for sure what we are talking about.

Our brother Knight Templar has patiently and with respect answered many, many questions, and I greatly appreciate his kindness in doing so.

We should be very careful in our words.

I know what I am talking about. It is a secret society--really a religion--based on blood oaths and antichristian teaching--in fact, Satanic teaching. It deceives good-hearted people into thinking they are being philanthropic organization.

Yes, the discussion regarding the demonic in believers is for another thread. But let me say this: those who are inhabited and without Christ--the demons don't make a ruckus, and we do not deliver them.

New believers in Christ?--Demons make a ruckus, and we deliver.

So, you are willing to call our brother Knight Templar a liar and a satan worshipper?

You have personal knowledge of masonic teaching and practice? He does. Seems to me that he is the more credible witness.

By the way, if she has come to Christ, she cannot be inhabited by any demon, and no force in hell or on earth can bind her.

But that's a whole 'nuther thread.



If she is a Chrisitian, she can not be possessed, but she can be oppressed or demonized. In actuality, the difference in possessed and demonized is for the most part academic.

If she is a Chrisitian, she can not be possessed, but she can be oppressed or demonized. In actuality, the difference in possessed and demonized is for the most part academic.

People who are possessed and oppressed come to Christ for salvation--they need deliverance ASAP. Sadly, many don't get it for years.

So, you are willing to call our brother Knight Templar a liar and a satan worshipper?

You have personal knowledge of masonic teaching and practice? He does. Seems to me that he is the more credible witness.

Born again Christians who are also masons are being deceived--not liars. There are countless believers out there who are deceived in some way or another--masonry is one.

Born again Christians who are also masons are being deceived--not liars. There are countless believers out there who are deceived in some way or another--masonry is one.

Ah, so he is a deceiver, not a liar. Got it.

I'm struck with a basic question...What's the real purpose of the masons? Do they have some kind of mission statement? What can you get from joining a masonic group that you couldn't get from, say, a church fellowship group or a neighborhood group?



Those are great questions because they go to the heart of the matter.

Originally, Masonic Lodges were literally masonic. They originated in medieval England and Scotland as branches of the stonemason guild. When the masons worked at a particular place, they built temporary living quarters that they called "lodges".

During the feudal period, the "free masons" were those workers who were not bound to any particular manor lord, and were thus free to travel and work, their only secular allegiance being to that of the guild.

As feudalism began to die out in the 17th century, non-stonemasons began to join the lodges out of interest in the fraternity's history and traditions. At this point Freemasonry as a builder's craft was almost extinct, and it was the new non-operative Masons that gave the society a new life. Before long, many of the major players in the Enlightenment Age had become Masons, including Elias Ashmole, Benjamin Franklin, Mozart, Haydn, Goethe, George Washington, and many others. The focus began to shift away from the fraternity being a society of stonemasons, and began to evolve in a gentleman's club concerned with science, philosophy, and moral improvement. In the 19th century, the fraternity also began to see itself as a philanthropic organization, and established organized charities.

It has no single mission statement that every member can agree upon, but it generally regarded as a club based on enlightenened principles and liberal philanthropy whose primary purposes are to provide good fellowship, support for worthy causes, and promulgate and encourage study into science, philosophy, and ethics.

Those are great questions because they go to the heart of the matter.

Originally, Masonic Lodges were literally masonic. They originated in medieval England and Scotland as branches of the stonemason guild. When the masons worked at a particular place, they built temporary living quarters that they called "lodges".

During the feudal period, the "free masons" were those workers who were not bound to any particular manor lord, and were thus free to travel and work, their only secular allegiance being to that of the guild.

As feudalism began to die out in the 17th century, non-stonemasons began to join the lodges out of interest in the fraternity's history and traditions. At this point Freemasonry as a builder's craft was almost extinct, and it was the new non-operative Masons that gave the society a new life. Before long, many of the major players in the Enlightenment Age had become Masons, including Elias Ashmole, Benjamin Franklin, Mozart, Haydn, Goethe, George Washington, and many others. The focus began to shift away from the fraternity being a society of stonemasons, and began to evolve in a gentleman's club concerned with science, philosophy, and moral improvement. In the 19th century, the fraternity also began to see itself as a philanthropic organization, and established organized charities.

It has no single mission statement that every member can agree upon, but it generally regarded as a club based on enlightenened principles and liberal philanthropy whose primary purposes are to provide good fellowship, support for worthy causes, and promulgate and encourage study into science, philosophy, and ethics.

Sounds like Satanism to me!

Sounds like Satanism to me!

That was very nearly a Depends moment....

:lol:

Making humanity thrall to the brotherhood.... one pancake breakfast and children's hospital at a time.

That was very nearly a Depends moment....

:lol:

I don't know what you are referring to!

I don't know what you are referring to!

Wait a few years, youngster....you will!

:D

Sounds like Satanism to me!

lol.

Actually, the "satanism" charge is usually based on the Taxil hoax, which was discussed earlier in the thread. Some of it also comes from other anti-Masonic propaganda issued by the Roman Catholic Church, especially the papal bull "Humanum Genus".

In the HG, Pope Leo XIII accuses Freemasons of being in cahoots with the devil because Freemasonry refused to recognize the supposed spiritual authority of the Vatican. Leo also attacks Freemasonry for supporting democratic elections, freedom of speech, public education, and separation of church and state. According to Leo, the Roman Church is the visible representative of Christ on earth, and therefore it has the authority to establish and dismiss secular governments, indoctrinate children, and to suppress organizations such as Freemasonry.

General Albert Pike, who at that time was the presiding officer of the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite of Masonry in the United States, issued a scathing reply titled "A Response of Freemasonry To Humanum Genus In Behalf of Mankind". I would recommend those interested to read those two documents, both of which can be found online, as they cast light on the origin of the "Masonic-Satan" fraud, as well as honestly declare positions of those two organizations (Freemasonry and the RCC) who have been at odds for centuries.

Ah, so he is a deceiver, not a liar. Got it.

Satan is the deceiver.

Please retract your barbs, Knife. I wouldn't hurt the man for the world.

Satan is the deceiver.

Please retract your barbs, Knife. I wouldn't hurt the man for the world.


Follow your thoughts logically.

You say that he is deceived and that his knowledge of masonry is a lie.
He is defending masonry by stating his knowledge.
Therefore, if you believe that he is deceived and he is passing that information forward, then he is in fact a deceiver, pursuant to your reasoning.

You are hurting him and accusing him in spite of your denial.

Freemasonry teaches men to imitate Hiram Abiff, so that they may get into heaven. The Gospel of Jesus Christ requires faith in the person and claims of Jesus Christ as the means of being redeemed from the death of sin and getting into heaven.


The Christian Mason is faced with a real dilemma. Can a man have two Saviours? Can he have a vital faith in Jesus Christ, as he imitates Hiram Abiff? Can he avoid being found guilty of taking part in the promotion of a false plan of salvation?



There is a Masonic ritual surrounding this false Saviour who is purported to have died and rose again, which involves burying someone in the Lodge. I have seen these crypts.



Obviously, the heretical teaching that Jesus Christ is NOT the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), that he is NOT the only redeemer and savior (John 14:6), and that the name of Jesus is NOT the only name whereby men may be saved (Acts 4:12) is current Masonic teaching.




If you are a Mason who claims to be a Christian, you have a simple choice to make:




You can stand with the church and defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


You can stand with the Lodge and defend a false plan of salvation which is based upon the imitation of Hiram Abiff.


Your choice will determine where you spend eternity.

Follow your thoughts logically.

You say that he is deceived and that his knowledge of masonry is a lie.
He is defending masonry by stating his knowledge.
Therefore, if you believe that he is deceived and he is passing that information forward, then he is in fact a deceiver, pursuant to your reasoning.

You are hurting him and accusing him in spite of your denial.

It is the cause of Christ that is being harmed only, by Freemasonry mixed with Christianity. We have only one Master. We cannot serve two--or three or four, which is what Freemasonry in effect teaches.

Then why not have the courage to say "You are deceived and this doctrine that you are defending is a false gospel making you an anti-christ and a false prophet."



Not that I am saying that, I just hate when people skirt around the issue.:D

Freemasonry teaches men to imitate Hiram Abiff, so that they may get into heaven. The Gospel of Jesus Christ requires faith in the person and claims of Jesus Christ as the means of being redeemed from the death of sin and getting into heaven.

The Christian Mason is faced with a real dilemma. Can a man have two Saviours? Can he have a vital faith in Jesus Christ, as he imitates Hiram Abiff? Can he avoid being found guilty of taking part in the promotion of a false plan of salvation?

In all the material I've been able to read, Hiram Abiff plays a role in couple degrees as a person who's character is worthy to emulate. He is NOT a savior figure akin to Jesus. People do the same thing every day: "why can't you be more like your father" or "lets take a lesson from Paul", etc.


There is a Masonic ritual surrounding this false Saviour who is purported to have died and rose again, which involves burying someone in the Lodge. I have seen these crypts.
But have you seen the ritual performed? Are you certain the metaphor presented is clearly what you are stating here? What are your sources?


Obviously, the heretical teaching that Jesus Christ is NOT the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), that he is NOT the only redeemer and savior (John 14:6), and that the name of Jesus is NOT the only name whereby men may be saved (Acts 4:12) is current Masonic teaching.
Source?

Obviously, the heretical teaching...


God is not the head of Jesus positionally


Um.... Nevermind.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb301/sosministries/emoticons/AddEmoticons04212.gif

Freemasonry teaches men to imitate Hiram Abiff, so that they may get into heaven.

This is not correct. To begin with, Hiram Abiff, for all intents and purposes, is a fictional character, who is loosely based on a historical biblical character. Masonic initiation ceremonies are actually plays in which moral lessons are exemplified.



The Christian Mason is faced with a real dilemma. Can a man have two Saviours? Can he have a vital faith in Jesus Christ, as he imitates Hiram Abiff? Can he avoid being found guilty of taking part in the promotion of a false plan of salvation?

As mentioned, Hiram Abiff is a fictional character in a Masonic play, certainly not any kind of "saviour".



There is a Masonic ritual surrounding this false Saviour who is purported to have died and rose again, which involves burying someone in the Lodge. I have seen these crypts.

Never in Freemasonry is it claimed that Hiram Abiff "rose again". In the Masonic legend, Hiram was murdered and buried in an unmarked grave. When it was discovered, the body was exhumed and reburied with Masonic honors.

Furthermore, there aren't any "crypts" in Masonic Lodges, so I'll have to call you on that one as well.

But you are deceived (which is better than being a liar but you probably don't know that you are deceived so that is bad, too, but not in a bad sort of way just a deceived sort of way SATANWORSHIPPER ), so we should NOT believe anything you tell us from first hand knowledge, as it is better that we rely on rumor and innuendo and gossip....

Now where is that "sarcastic tongue in cheek" smiley when I need it....

:rofl:

Thanks for your patience and your information, KT.

But you are deceived (which is better than being a liar but you probably don't know that you are deceived so that is bad, too, but not in a bad sort of way just a deceived sort of way SATANWORSHIPPER ), so we should NOT believe anything you tell us from first hand knowledge, as it is better that we rely on rumor and innuendo and gossip....



Now *I* almost had a Depends moment! :lol:

I think I did...:blush:

Mod note:

Please stop the personal jabs and circumstantial accusations as well as unsubstantiated speculations based on hearsay or this thread is going to be closed. Let's stick to facts and keep things respectful.

Grazie. :)

This is not correct. To begin with, Hiram Abiff, for all intents and purposes, is a fictional character, who is loosely based on a historical biblical character. Masonic initiation ceremonies are actually plays in which moral lessons are exemplified.




As mentioned, Hiram Abiff is a fictional character in a Masonic play, certainly not any kind of "saviour".




Never in Freemasonry is it claimed that Hiram Abiff "rose again". In the Masonic legend, Hiram was murdered and buried in an unmarked grave. When it was discovered, the body was exhumed and reburied with Masonic honors.

Furthermore, there aren't any "crypts" in Masonic Lodges, so I'll have to call you on that one as well.

There are coffins or burial crypts in masonic Lodges. I have seen them, and opened them.

Fictional character Hiram is, but for a believer to engage in this type of role play is misguided at least.

http://www.emfj.org/godbible.htm

This link brings up a point that is quite hard for a Mason to honestly reconcile.

http://www.emfj.org/salvat.htm

The info. in that link, even harder to reconcile to Christianity.

Moving this into Controversial Issues.

Those are great questions because they go to the heart of the matter.

Originally, Masonic Lodges were literally masonic. They originated in medieval England and Scotland as branches of the stonemason guild. When the masons worked at a particular place, they built temporary living quarters that they called "lodges".

During the feudal period, the "free masons" were those workers who were not bound to any particular manor lord, and were thus free to travel and work, their only secular allegiance being to that of the guild.

As feudalism began to die out in the 17th century, non-stonemasons began to join the lodges out of interest in the fraternity's history and traditions. At this point Freemasonry as a builder's craft was almost extinct, and it was the new non-operative Masons that gave the society a new life. Before long, many of the major players in the Enlightenment Age had become Masons, including Elias Ashmole, Benjamin Franklin, Mozart, Haydn, Goethe, George Washington, and many others. The focus began to shift away from the fraternity being a society of stonemasons, and began to evolve in a gentleman's club concerned with science, philosophy, and moral improvement. In the 19th century, the fraternity also began to see itself as a philanthropic organization, and established organized charities.

It has no single mission statement that every member can agree upon, but it generally regarded as a club based on enlightenened principles and liberal philanthropy whose primary purposes are to provide good fellowship, support for worthy causes, and promulgate and encourage study into science, philosophy, and ethics.

I for one appreciate the information.
Not that a letter alone can convince me.
But there is so much deception going around about things like Freemasons.

People are using controversial talk about religions as a media marketing tool at a increasing rate. The same thing happens to Christianity itself. People want to make up all kinds of ideas and things about Christianity without actually knowing what the bible says.

There are coffins or burial crypts in masonic Lodges. I have seen them, and opened them.

A coffin is an important symbol in the Third Degree of Masonry. However there are not now, nor have there ever been, any "burial crypts" in Masonic Lodges.


Fictional character Hiram is, but for a believer to engage in this type of role play is misguided at least.

It is not misguided for believers to participate in plays.

It is misguided for Christians to participate in an organization that worships a universal god. The masonic lodge holds Allah in the same esteem as Jesus Christ.

I've heard (from two Christians who I trust) that Freemasonry can bring a curse into a family. My brother goes so far as to say that anyone involved in masons is not a Christian. Apparently it's a really bad thing...

I don't know much about masons, although the whole thing seems odd to me. Does anyone here know anything about this?

The question behind this is--two of my sisters-in-law were in Rainbow Girls, and they just got my youngest sister-in-law initiated. She's 11. Is this a bad thing? She doesn't need anything else going against her; her life is hard enough as it is. I'm not sure if I should be worried or not.

Just looking for insight. Thanks!

I was the pastor of a church previously where most (all) of the core membership were masons. In this case, the trouble had little to do with any secret rituals or whatever directly; it has to do with the fact that these men placed their masonic temple affiliation above that of the church or following Christ.

They only trusted masons and they were very much more than "clique-ish"' ... they were downright distrustful of anyone who was not a mason and they would NOT give away control. :B

I don't think this is true of all masons. I am skeptical of the organization because of my past experience but I have a couple of masons in the church I pastor now and they are great men and plainly genuine followers of Christ.

Freemasonry has a rich tradition in this country. Many founding fathers were masons and many great leaders in the history of the American church. I try to take them on a case by case basis and not judge them as a group. As with anything I do not think you can paint the whole according to color of a few. :2cents:

I was the pastor of a church previously where most (all) of the core membership were masons. In this case, the trouble had little to do with any secret rituals or whatever directly; it has to do with the fact that these men placed their masonic temple affiliation above that of the church or following Christ.

They only trusted masons and they were very much more than "clique-ish"' ... they were downright distrustful of anyone who was not a mason and they would NOT give away control. :B

I don't think this is true of all masons. I am skeptical of the organization because of my past experience but I have a couple of masons in the church I pastor now and they are great men and plainly genuine followers of Christ.

Freemasonry has a rich tradition in this country. Many founding fathers were masons and many great leaders in the history of the American church. I try to take them on a case by case basis and not judge them as a group. As with anything I do not think you can paint the whole according to color of a few. :2cents:


Mason's accept a principle that should make evry Christian immediately see them for the cult they are. There is One God. His name is Jehovah, and His Son is Jesus Christ. He, and He alone is God. The Masons believe that as long as someone believes in a supreme being, or a supernatural power, that they are eligible for membership. Allah, Baal, Brahaman, etc. etc. are false Gods. Worshiping them, or offering prayers to them, IS WORSHIPING SATAN. There is no way that a Christian in good conscience can participate in an organization where members offer prayers to the "achitect" knowing that the person praying believes a false god is the architect. The mason's teach a form of works based salvation. Works based salvation is a DOCTRINE OF DEVILS. No man can serve two masters.

I could care less that they are good people. Mormon's and Jehovah's witnesses are good people, but I am not going to join their church and be party to their cultic beliefs.

Mason's accept a principle that should make evry Christian immediately see them for the cult they are. There is One God. His name is Jehovah, and His Son is Jesus Christ. He, and He alone is God. The Masons believe that as long as someone believes in a supreme being, or a supernatural power, that they are eligible for membership. Allah, Baal, Brahaman, etc. etc. are false Gods. Worshiping them, or offering prayers to them, IS WORSHIPING SATAN. There is no way that a Christian in good conscience can participate in an organization where members offer prayers to the "achitect" knowing that the person praying believes a false god is the architect. The mason's teach a form of works based salvation. Works based salvation is a DOCTRINE OF DEVILS. No man can serve two masters.

I could care less that they are good people. Mormon's and Jehovah's witnesses are good people, but I am not going to join their church and be party to their cultic beliefs.

Pardon me for asking, but it seems to me they teach works for the sake of good works, and not for the sake of salvation.

Mason's accept a principle that should make evry Christian immediately see them for the cult they are. There is One God. His name is Jehovah, and His Son is Jesus Christ. He, and He alone is God. The Masons believe that as long as someone believes in a supreme being, or a supernatural power, that they are eligible for membership. Allah, Baal, Brahaman, etc. etc. are false Gods. Worshiping them, or offering prayers to them, IS WORSHIPING SATAN. There is no way that a Christian in good conscience can participate in an organization where members offer prayers to the "achitect" knowing that the person praying believes a false god is the architect. The mason's teach a form of works based salvation. Works based salvation is a DOCTRINE OF DEVILS. No man can serve two masters.

I could care less that they are good people. Mormon's and Jehovah's witnesses are good people, but I am not going to join their church and be party to their cultic beliefs.

I was in the Army and served alongside Muslims, Pagans, and all sorts of non-Christians. Do they make the Army "Satanic" by their membership?

Pardon me for asking, but it seems to me they teach works for the sake of good works, and not for the sake of salvation.


They teach that good works are essential to dwell with the great architect. I have posted links to the quotes that deal with that from their own material.

I was in the Army and served alongside Muslims, Pagans, and all sorts of non-Christians. Do they make the Army "Satanic" by their membership?

Does the army teach a path to eternal life? Does that path include steps that would be considered heresy compared against the teaching of the Word?

Mason's accept a principle that should make evry Christian immediately see them for the cult they are.

Just for the record, anyone who starts throwing the word "cult" around to describe people of different viewpoints, are generally themselves involved in a cult. ;)

Does the army teach a path to eternal life? Does that path include steps that would be considered heresy compared against the teaching of the Word?

Okay, I mis-understood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that their membership alone is what made the organization Satanic. That's my fault.

Okay, I mis-understood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that their membership alone is what made the organization Satanic. That's my fault.

Yet Reynolds uses a false dichotomy in his argument against Freemasonry. For example, contrary to what he wrote, Freemasonry does not teach "a path to eternal life".

Yet Reynolds uses a false dichotomy in his argument against Freemasonry. For example, contrary to what he wrote, Freemasonry does not teach "a path to eternal life".

Are you saying that Masonry does not have any teaching about how to gain enterance into the cellestial Lodge? Are you saying that Masons do not teach that "Purity of life & Conduct" are necessary to gain entrance into the Cellestial lodge?

Mason's absolutely teach these two things and you admitted it earlier in this thread.:B

I really do not understand you. You admit that the Masons have criteria that must be met to enter into the cellestial lodge. You then say the Masons teach no path to Salvation. The Masons do teach a path to Salvation. They teach your belief in your god + your works and righteousness conduct will gain you entry into the cellestial lodge.

The Bible teaches that our works are as "Filthy rags." The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith and by grace alone. Works will be a sign that we have received salvation by grace, but works are NOT ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION. Any teaching that says that works are essential to eternal life is a Doctrine of devils.

If you would like to start a debate about the book of James, I will be happy to go there.

Are you saying that Masonry does not have any teaching about how to gain enterance into the cellestial Lodge? Are you saying that Masons do not teach that "Purity of life & Conduct" are necessary to gain entrance into the Cellestial lodge?

I said that it is quite obvious that "purity of life and conduct" is a necessary component to salvation, and that those who teach otherwise are at the very least deceived, and at the very worst are promoting a doctrine of devils (James 2:19-12).

The only thing that Masonry says about the subject is a brief line in the apron lecture, where it is "Let its pure and spotless surface be an ever present reminder of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct; a never-ceasing argument for nobler deeds, higher thoughts, and greater achievements."

A "celestial lodge" is not mentioned.



I really do not understand you. You admit that the Masons have criteria that must be met to enter into the cellestial lodge. You then say the Masons teach no path to Salvation.

If a Mason asks for a "path to salvation", the easiest answer would be to point to the open Bible on the altar, and tell him his answer can be found there.


The Masons do teach a path to Salvation. They teach your belief in your god + your works and righteousness conduct will gain you entry into the cellestial lodge.

Masonry doesn't teach any method of salvation, as Masons have their opinions on that subject before they join a lodge.


The Bible teaches that our works are as "Filthy rags." The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith and by grace alone. Works will be a sign that we have received salvation by grace, but works are NOT ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION.

To say that the Bible teaches that our works are filthy rags is to seriously take a verse out of context and try to use it to justify an indefensible position. Scripture is very clear that works are essential component, without which one is no different than a demon who also believes in God (see the verse in James I referenced). James further uses Abraham as an example, telling us that by his works, Abraham's faith was made perfect. Without works, faith is dead.

A "celestial lodge" is not mentioned.
Kind of a shame. It sounds pretty cool. Like a place we could all hang out and talk about higher topics like the meaning of life. Oh well.

Kind of a shame. It sounds pretty cool. Like a place we could all hang out and talk about higher topics like the meaning of life.

That's the terrestrial lodge! :lol:

That's the terrestrial lodge! :lol:
Maybe I'm missing out on something here, then...:hmm:

I said that it is quite obvious that "purity of life and conduct" is a necessary component to salvation, and that those who teach otherwise are at the very least deceived, and at the very worst are promoting a doctrine of devils (James 2:19-12).

The only thing that Masonry says about the subject is a brief line in the apron lecture, where it is "Let its pure and spotless surface be an ever present reminder of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct; a never-ceasing argument for nobler deeds, higher thoughts, and greater achievements."


To say that the Bible teaches that our works are filthy rags is to seriously take a verse out of context and try to use it to justify an indefensible position. Scripture is very clear that works are essential component, without which one is no different than a demon who also believes in God (see the verse in James I referenced). James further uses Abraham as an example, telling us that by his works, Abraham's faith was made perfect. Without works, faith is dead.

So, It would be accurate to say that you, and the Lodge teach that Works are essential to spend eternity in the presence of great architect. Earlier in this post, you had no problem with saying that the Masons teach that works are required to pass to the cellestial lodge. Now, you seem to be waffling on that a little. Please quote to me exactly what the masons say about charitable deeds and character. You lean one way and then another. It is hard to pin you down.

You personally are saying that salvation is works based, and use James to defend that position? That position is simply heresy, and I will gladly debate you on it if I can pin you down to it. When I begin to put my thumb down, you slide sideways.

I am taking no bible verses out of context. I put it perfectly in the context it was intended to be used. If you will quit waffling, and land on a doctorinal position; then we can debate that position.

You keep avoiding dealing with an issue by saying "the lodge does not teach salvation." Though the lodge does not call it that, it does teach that certain things are required for one to dwell with the great architect. I accurately summed up the masonic position of salvation earlier. You simply headed down another rabbit trail instead of dealing with it. The masons could just as easily say "look in the Koran" could they not. Most occultists use bibles. The fact a masons use bibles in their lodge says very little.

I am taking no bible verses out of context. I put it perfectly in the context it was intended to be used.
I know we normally agree on stuff, but that verse in Isaiah about "all our works being filthy rags", is almost always quoted out of context by Christians.

"All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags."
Php 3 is a new testament confirmation of this.
Romans 3:10 also is a n.t. confirmation of this.

Pardon me for asking, but it seems to me they teach works for the sake of good works, and not for the sake of salvation.
They teach works are neccesary for salvation. They also loosely teach a path to salvation.

the Mason who wears the Masonic “white lambskin apron” given to him during the first degree is “reminded of that purity of life and conduct so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.”
Official Cipher [ritual] (Grand Lodge of Masons in Massachusetts, 1989),

“Then let us imitate the good man [Hiram] in his virtuous and amiable conduct; in his unfeigned piety to God; in his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent from our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.”
North Dakota Monitor (Grand Lodge, A. F. and A. M. of North Dakota, 1965),

Mason's accept a principle that should make evry Christian immediately see them for the cult they are. There is One God. His name is Jehovah, and His Son is Jesus Christ. He, and He alone is God. The Masons believe that as long as someone believes in a supreme being, or a supernatural power, that they are eligible for membership. Allah, Baal, Brahaman, etc. etc. are false Gods. Worshiping them, or offering prayers to them, IS WORSHIPING SATAN. There is no way that a Christian in good conscience can participate in an organization where members offer prayers to the "achitect" knowing that the person praying believes a false god is the architect. The mason's teach a form of works based salvation. Works based salvation is a DOCTRINE OF DEVILS. No man can serve two masters.

I could care less that they are good people. Mormon's and Jehovah's witnesses are good people, but I am not going to join their church and be party to their cultic beliefs.

Really? I'm not going to defend the masons but I do not agree with your line of thinking; even though I appreciate your desire to keep the worship of the One True God distinct and applaud you for it. :kiss:

I appreciate your thoughts and I do think it best for a Christian to consider seriously joining any "secret society" but to call it "Satan worship" is a bit of stretch :hmm:

Really? I'm not going to defend the masons but I do not agree with your line of thinking; even though I appreciate your desire to keep the worship of the One True God distinct and applaud you for it. :kiss:

I appreciate your thoughts and I do think it best for a Christian to consider seriously joining any "secret society" but to call it "Satan worship" is a bit of stretch :hmm:


When someone offers prayers to a false god, who is that false god?

When someone offers prayers to a false god, who is that false god?

Do you have first hand accounts that these people offer prayers to false gods?

Maybe I'm missing out on something here, then...:hmm:

I meant that the Lodge down the street would be the proper place to discuss such philosophical issues.

"Celestial Lodge" is apparently a name for heaven, but the term is almost always found on anti-Masonic websites, I've never heard it used by other Masons.

Do you have first hand accounts that these people offer prayers to false gods?

Yes. Knight Templar has admitted to asmuch here in this forum. The great architect can be whomever the person praying to him thinks he is. Therefore, when a muslim prays to him, he is praying to Allah.

I meant that the Lodge down the street would be the proper place to discuss such philosophical issues.

I understood your point. It makes the Lodge sound like an interesting place.

"All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags."
Php 3 is a new testament confirmation of this.
Romans 3:10 also is a n.t. confirmation of this.
Then the NT is also quoting it out of context.

5 And we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 6 And there is none that calleth upon Thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou hast hid Thy face from us, and hast consumed us by means of our iniquities. 7 But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father; we are the clay, and Thou our potter, and we all are the work of Thy hand. 8 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever; behold, look, we beseech Thee, we are all Thy people. 9 Thy holy cities are become a wilderness, Zion is become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. 10 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised Thee, is burned with fire; and all our pleasant things are laid waste...

This is the generation that saw the destruction of the temple and the exile of the Jewish people. I am certain that they saw themselves without merit. Still, it is not a condemnation of all of mankind for all time. Jews never read it that way, and that meaning is not supported by the context.

I meant that the Lodge down the street would be the proper place to discuss such philosophical issues.

"Celestial Lodge" is apparently a name for heaven, but the term is almost always found on anti-Masonic websites, I've never heard it used by other Masons.


Your common excuse again.
Well, read below and you will have heard Masons use it.

"Purity of life and conduct" will not gain you admission to heaven. It will gain you admission to hell. Being washed in the blood of Jesus will gain you admission to heaven. Purity of life and conduct are outward signs that one is a believer in Christ. They are also signs that one is a believer in Allah, Brahman, Budah, and almost any other eastern god. Purity of life and conduct IS NOT "ESSENTIAL" TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Positional righteousness given us through the blood of Christ is "essential" to enter the kingdom of Heaven. Anyone who says good works and good moral conduct are essential for salvation are teaching a "doctrine of demons."


the Mason who wears the Masonic “white lambskin apron” given to him during the first degree is “reminded of that purity of life and conduct so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.”
Official Cipher [ritual] (Grand Lodge of Masons in Massachusetts, 1989)

“Then let us imitate the good man [Hiram] in his virtuous and amiable conduct; in his unfeigned piety to God; in his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent from our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.”
North Dakota Monitor (Grand Lodge, A. F. and A. M. of North Dakota, 1965),



http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Then the NT is also quoting it out of context.

5 And we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 6 And there is none that calleth upon Thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou hast hid Thy face from us, and hast consumed us by means of our iniquities. 7 But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father; we are the clay, and Thou our potter, and we all are the work of Thy hand. 8 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever; behold, look, we beseech Thee, we are all Thy people. 9 Thy holy cities are become a wilderness, Zion is become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. 10 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised Thee, is burned with fire; and all our pleasant things are laid waste...

This is the generation that saw the destruction of the temple and the exile of the Jewish people. I am certain that they saw themselves without merit. Still, it is not a condemnation of all of mankind for all time. Jews never read it that way, and that meaning is not supported by the context.

That is an example in the difference in perspective from a Christian and a Non-Christian. There are a lot of verses in the O.T. that have no real significance to a Christian without the N.T. unveiling of them. I accept the N.T. as inspired of God, and you do not. Simply put, having that in mind; there are many things in scripture that we will never be able to agree on.
They plainly say that all their righteousness is as a "polluted garment." In that strict context, one could argue that it meant the righteousness of all men, or they could argue that it meant the righteousness of that generation. Applying New testament light to this makes it quite plain that the righteousness of any man outside Christ is worthless and vile in the sight of God.

That is an example in the difference in perspective from a Christian and a Non-Christian. Understood, but apparently some Christians feel the same way about this verse that Jews do. If you're going to pick through a book and separate verses from the rest of the chapter, you can make a verse mean anything you want.



They plainly say that all their righteousness is as a "polluted garment."
Yes, they say it. People. Not prophets, not God.

That is an example in the difference in perspective from a Christian and a Non-Christian.

It is not. It is an example of how *you* interpret it, not all or most Christians. Traditionally, Christians interpret it in much the same way that Fenris has described, and you have used it out of context, as do practically all other heterodox teachers.

It is not. It is an example of how *you* interpret it, not all or most Christians. Traditionally, Christians interpret it in much the same way that Fenris has described, and you have used it out of context, as do practically all other heterodox teachers.

It is not used out of context. If you would like to say that it is, do you care to deal with the N.T. passages I posted? Those are just two passages, there are more. Fenris brings up a quite valid point. Fenris does not believe the New Testament to be the inspired Word of God. From his perspective, he has a valid point for not accepting the traditional Christian interpretation of the verse. From your perspective, it is commical that you attack my use of this verse, because even if you totally discount this verse, you get slammed by a multitude of verses from the New Testament which say essentially the same thing.

I ask again, are you saying that works are necessary for salvation, or should I say entrance into the celestial lodge? There is no point in beginning debate only to have you attempt to change poisition in midstream.

If that is what you are saying, we can begin debate on that doctrine. This will somewhat derail this thread, but it seems to be essential in determining if the concerns by the O.P. are valid.

My opening scriptures:

(Romans 3:20-28) "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; {22} Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: {23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {25} Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; {26} To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. {27} Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. {28} Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
(Romans 5:18-19) "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
(Romans 6:23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Romans 11:6) "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
(1 Corinthians 4:7) "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"
(1 Corinthians 15:10) "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
(Galatians 2:16) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
(Galatians 2:21) "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."
(2 Timothy 1:9) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

As I've already stated, anyone who claims to have faith, but has no works, has a faith in vain. Such a faith is meaningless. What about that is so difficult to understand?

As I've already stated, anyone who claims to have faith, but has no works, has a faith in vain. Such a faith is meaningless. What about that is so difficult to understand?

There is a lot difficult to understand about that. Are you saying that it is impossible to have salvation without works? Please further define "meaningless" as used in this specific context.

Why do the Masons say that works are essential to entry into the celestial lodge? Are you now saying that works are not necessary for salvation and the masons are wrong? If you are saying that works will be demonstrated by those who are saved, and works are not necessary for salvation; then you are saying that the Masonic teaching I quoted is wrong.

I will concisely outline my premise.

A. The Masons teach that works are "Essential" for entrance into the cellestial lodge.
B. Thus, the Masons teach that works are essential to what we as Christians refer to as "salvation."
C. Thus, if works are not an essential element of salvation as the Masosn claim, but instead are a fruit of salvation, then the teachings of the Masons is heresy.

What is hard about that to understand?

There is a lot difficult to understand about that. Are you saying that it is impossible to have salvation without works? Please further define "meaningless" as used in this specific context.

If you don't know what "meaningless" means, I'm wasting my time with you. If you do know what it means but just want to provoke me, I'm still wasting my time with you. Either way, consider this conversation at an end.

Just for the record, anyone who starts throwing the word "cult" around to describe people of different viewpoints, are generally themselves involved in a cult. ;)


Hardly. The people of God have His wisdom and discernment in operation and can speak correctly about such things. We have to.

If you don't know what "meaningless" means, I'm wasting my time with you. If you do know what it means but just want to provoke me, I'm still wasting my time with you. Either way, consider this conversation at an end.

You refuse to answer my questions. You consistently side step every question I ask you. For all practical purposes, this debate has been over for a long time. It was over when I posted quotations from Masonic material that plainly said the masons believe what you denied they believe.
You let your strong love of the masonic cult cloud your judgment in spiritual matters and in the interpretation of The Word.

Why do I want clarification of "meaningless?"
Well, I know what its dictionary definition is, but I want to know what the implication of it is in your statement. By saying that faith without works is "meaningless," are you saying the person is not saved, or are you saying something else?

I am asking you a simple question that has a simple answer.
Are works essential to obtaining salvation? Yes or No.

I know we normally agree on stuff, but that verse in Isaiah about "all our works being filthy rags", is almost always quoted out of context by Christians.

That verse in Isaiah is quoted correctly by those who understand that any of our own deeds that are considered righteous by our own standards, God considers as filthy, bloody rags.

Only what we do as unto God in Christ are considered worthy by Him. He looks at the motives of our heart and judges that. If we think that our good works are worthy and gain satisfaction from that--pride--and not consider that the Kingdom is benefited by it, then our motivation is wrong. Our works are an extension of WHOSE we are, and extension of our faith.

Any club or fraternity that is altruistic and not proclaiming Christ is not worthy of membership, as the good works coming from it are of the flesh.

As far as masonry goes, one joins in a blood oath which is forbidden for believers, and joins with people in that same oath who worship other gods. A Christian who does that becomes bound, and loses his complete freedom in Christ.

Spirit-led churches refuse to allow anyone who is a mason to join in membership.

Deliverance ministries list Freemasonry as an association that must be rejected adn renounced in order to come to spiritual freedom in Christ.

It is a deadly weight on the spirit of a believer.

That verse in Isaiah is quoted correctly by those who understand that any of our own deeds that are considered righteous by our own standards, God considers as filthy, bloody rags.
If that's what you already believe, then the verse supports that contention. If you read the entire chapter the verse is speaking about something else completely. And that's how Jews understand it.

As far as masonry goes, one joins in a blood oath which is forbidden for believers, and joins with people in that same oath who worship other gods. A Christian who does that becomes bound, and loses his complete freedom in Christ.

Spirit-led churches refuse to allow anyone who is a mason to join in membership.

Deliverance ministries list Freemasonry as an association that must be rejected adn renounced in order to come to spiritual freedom in Christ.

It is a deadly weight on the spirit of a believer.


I agree with you 100%. It simply amazes me that many Christians do not see the Lodge for what it is. I can not figure out why any Christian would defend the Masonic Lodge. I most definitely can not fathom why a Christian would be a mason.

If that's what you already believe, then the verse supports that contention. If you read the entire chapter the verse is speaking about something else completely.

You are of course correct, but if some people (anti-Masons for example) read it in context, they won't be able to use it to support their prejudices.

Anybody can start taking verses out of context, and make them mean practically anything. I've seen that a lot on this thread, and it shows either a lack of understanding or a lack of caring.

You are of course correct, but if some people (anti-Masons for example) read it in context, they won't be able to use it to support their prejudices.

Anybody can start taking verses out of context, and make them mean practically anything. I've seen that a lot on this thread, and it shows either a lack of understanding or a lack of caring.

As I said earlier, and you so conveniently avoided, if you think this verse is out of context, why not deal with the new testament verses that are most definitely in context. You, and the Masons teach works based salvation. Works based salvation is heresy.

The denial of works in the process of salvation is a heresy (see the Athanasian Creed, Statement 43).

The denial of works in the process of salvation is a heresy (see the Athanasian Creed, Statement 43).
Unless the Athanasian creed has been recently canonized, I really could care less what it says. If I remember it correctly from seminary, It also says you must be Catholic to be saved; so in that light, I really give double less of a flip about it.
Let us use the Bible for our theology. Even though that will be tough for you because IT contradicts the beliefs of your lodge; lets stay with it for our doctrine. See the New Testament Verses I previously posted and deal with them. Works based Salvation is a lie of the Devil, and the BIBLE pretty plain about that.

Romans 11:6 would be a good starting point for you.

Why not quit posting creeds, and start a debate on works based salvation using the Word of God? I have posted the opening a couple of times, and I get no scriptural response.

Unless the Athanasian creed has been recently canonized, I really could care less what it says. If I remember it correctly from seminary, It also says you must be Catholic to be saved; so in that light, I really give double less of a flip about it.

The Athanasian Creed defines the faith of a Christian. It uses the word "catholic" in the sense of "universal", i.e. mandatory to Christian faith, and not in the sense of Roman Catholicism.

The Protestant Reformers accepted the Creed in full as a statement of the true and historic Christian faith.


Works based Salvation is a lie of the Devil, and the BIBLE pretty plain about that.

As I already mentioned, the Apostle James said that faith alone cannot save, as even devils have faith.

James 2:14 would be a good starting point for you.

As I already mentioned, the Apostle James said that faith alone cannot save, as even devils have faith.

James 2:14 would be a good starting point for you.

You are correct, James 2:14 is an excellent starting place.
Notice, It says "though a man say he has Faith." This person professes to believe something, but has no fruit to confirm that he has this belief. Notice the passage did not say that the man had faith. The passage said that the man claimed to have faith. Works is evidence of the presence of faith. If one does not manifest good works, one can rightly say that the person does not have true faith. However, works do not justify a man. Works do not make a man righteous. Works have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with salvation. This entire passage is James telling us that one who does not show fruit of faith, never had faith. You, along with the Masons, contend that Works are an essential part of the process of salvation. You teach salvation through works. Salvation through works is heresy. I have posted several verses that state this, but you continue to ignore them. Talk about taking a verse out of contest! You are butchering James 2 in a futile attempt to defend the heresy of the Masons. Faith and Works is really quite simple. You endeavor to make it complicated and confusing to mask the heresy of the lodge.

Now Please address the verses I posted.

[quote=Knight Templar;2167658]The Athanasian Creed defines the faith of a Christian. It uses the word "catholic" in the sense of "universal", i.e. mandatory to Christian faith, and not in the sense of Roman Catholicism.

The Protestant Reformers accepted the Creed in full as a statement of the true and historic Christian faith.

quote]

It is not widely accepted in Protestant Churches, nor has it ever been widely accepted. It's acceptance is at best limited to protestant denomination who remain close in practice to Roman Catholicism. Though this creed was probably written in the 7th century, prior to the reformation, it still has strong implication that adherance to the structure of the Catholic Church is essential for salvation.

It is not widely accepted in Protestant Churches, nor has it ever been widely accepted.

Incorrect. The Athanasian Creed was accepted by all the Reformers, and is used in all liturgical churches. Any church who does not accept it is generally considered outside of Christianity, and in many cases a cult.

Incorrect. The Athanasian Creed was accepted by all the Reformers, and is used in all liturgical churches. Any church who does not accept it is generally considered outside of Christianity, and in many cases a cult.
Please provide evidence of this. Some quotations confirming this would be nice.

You continue to refuse to respond to the scripture I have posted?
This debate is based on scripture, and you seem most intent on avoiding the passages that deal with this subject.
Are the conflicts between the beliefs of the lodge and the Written Word of God too hard for you to deal with?

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the line in the creed you are attempting to use to argue your position as a Mason. I have given up on you addressing scripture because it plainly staes concrete facts that you have no rebuttal to.

You really believe point 43? Are you going to heaven? If you believe point 43, you are most definitely not going to heaven. Have you ever broken any commandment in the Bible? Have you ever just one time broken any one commandment given us in scripture? Since you love James so much, I will use James to make a point to you. James 2:10 says that "whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." If you have ever committed one sin, then you are as vile as the most vile mass rapist and murder. God has one standard, righteous. You are not made righteous by your works. You are made righteous by the blood of Jesus. (I posted that scripture, but you still choose to ignore it.) If you are counting on point 43 of the creed to get you into heaven, James (your favorite writer) says you are dead wrong.

You really believe point 43?

All Christians believe it. This particular Creed is no more than a brief summary of what Christ himself taught.


You are not made righteous by your works... James (your favorite writer) says you are dead wrong.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

All Christians believe it. This particular Creed is no more than a brief summary of what Christ himself taught.

All Christians believe it? You have yet to be able to offer evidence that supports any widely held belief in this creed outside the catholic church. Christ taught this? Scripture reference to that please.;)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

This entire passage deals with works manifesting the evidence of Faith. Salvation is through faith. Works are confirmation of the presence of the faith. The following passages that you continually ignore confirm what I say. Care to comment on any of them?

(Romans 3:20-28) "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; {22} Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: {23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {25} Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; {26} To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. {27} Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. {28} Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.":B

(Romans 11:6) "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.":B


(Galatians 2:16) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.":B

(Galatians 2:21) "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.":B

(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} :lol:Not of works, lest any man should boast.":lol:

(2 Timothy 1:9) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," :B

Do you care to deal with these scriptures, or do you wish to continue to quote James out of context?

This entire passage deals with works manifesting the evidence of Faith. Salvation is through faith. Works are confirmation of the presence of the faith. The following passages that you continually ignore confirm what I say. Care to comment on any of them?

(Romans 3:20-28) "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; {22} Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: {23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: {25} Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; {26} To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. {27} Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. {28} Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.":B

(Romans 11:6) "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.":B


(Galatians 2:16) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.":B

(Galatians 2:21) "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.":B

(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} :lol:Not of works, lest any man should boast.":lol:

(2 Timothy 1:9) "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," :B

Do you care to deal with these scriptures, or do you wish to continue to quote James out of context?

Templar, I am still waiting on you to deal with the above scriptures. Been waiting a long time.

Templar, I am still waiting on you to deal with the above scriptures. Been waiting a long time.

I'm not sure what you're asking. I never claimed that anyone was justified by following the Jewish law, I'm not Jewish.

No offense to anyone, but I've always found the secretive things of freemasonry very creepy. It reminds me of Mormonism (whom, by the way, consider themselves to be Christian as well). I don't think any good can come out of an organization that keeps secrets like that. ......

Yes, the apparent fruits can be good... (hospitals and such)... And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14)

No follower of Christ has any place being involved with the Craft of Freemasonry.

First website I posted has reference to Jabulon.

So, you are saying that masons have absolutely no teaching about "gaining admission to the celestial lodge above, where the supreme architect resides." I guess I just made that up then since you say that it is not true. ;)

Did you read my second link? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

If there is no Masonic 'god', who is the "Great Architect"?


(Link to Ex-Masons for Jesus)... (http://www.emfj.org/mensclub.htm)
GOTU: These situations accurately model the worship which takes place in Masonic Lodges today. Freemasonry teaches that there is one God and men of all religions worship that one God using a variety of different names. In a Masonic Lodge, all join in corporate prayer to the Great Architect of the Universe, (GAOTU).

If there is no Masonic 'god', who is the "Great Architect"?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]



The Great Architect is not a "Masonic" God....he's just plain God, the Creator.

My grandmother was Worthy Grand Matron in the Eastern Star, and my dad is a 32d (non active) Mason in the Scottish Rite, and no one in my family believes there's any issues with it, though I've had pleanty of people tell me otherwise. We just choose not to talk about it.

I woulda probably been a Rainbow Girl if I wasn't a Tom-Boy. I think my grandmother knew there was no way she'd ever get me into all those dresses. lol

Just what is the connection between Rainbow Girl and Masons??? I've never heard of Rainbow girl.:huh:

Lodges are opened in prayers addressed to God, in the same manner as other secular organizations who open in prayer (for example, the US Congress). Congress is composed of mostly Christians, some Jews, and one Muslim US Representative. They each participate in the prayer addressed to God.

Same thing in Masonic Lodges.

?

And therein lies the problem, by participating in this, you are saying it's ok to pray together, as long as you know to pray to the One True God....you know your prayer is being heard, and theirs isn't....however, you are at the same time, telling these people who are praying to a god that may not be the same as yours, that you agree with them and that you believe their god has just as much validity as yours.

Just what is the connection between Rainbow Girl and Masons??? I've never heard of Rainbow girl.:huh:

"Rainbow girls" is a children's association with ties to the Masons.

Woman can not be 'Masons' but they have the "Eastern Star"... young girls can be "Rainbow girls".

History (sympathetic site (http://www.freewebs.com/marvelous101/whatisrainbow.htm));



The International Order of the Rainbow for Girls was founded in 1922, by William Mark Sexson, a Christian minister and active member of the Masonic Lodge. The Rev. Sexson had spent his life dedicated to both fraternal organizations, and his ministry, and became aware of the need for a youth organization for young women who were from a Masonic or Eastern Star home. Today, membership is open to any girl regardless of Masonic affiliation.



Like the Shriners, they are work to make the Masonic Craft look and feel more like the mainstream organization that it would claim to be.

http://www.ephesians5-11.org/dwrespon.htm

Just what is the connection between Rainbow Girl and Masons??? I've never heard of Rainbow girl.:huh:

The International Order of the Rainbow For Girls is a service society for girls aged 11 - 21, and is sponsored by the Masonic fraternity. The Rainbow Girls were founded in 1922 by Rev. Mark Sexson, Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma, Free and Accepted Masons.

And therein lies the problem, by participating in this, you are saying it's ok to pray together, as long as you know to pray to the One True God....you know your prayer is being heard, and theirs isn't....however, you are at the same time, telling these people who are praying to a god that may not be the same as yours, that you agree with them and that you believe their god has just as much validity as yours.

Actually what we do is open and close meeting with non-sectarian prayer, just like the Boy Scouts and US Congress. What people believe personally is between them and God.

I would highly recommend a booklet written by the late Dr. John R. Rice: Lodges Examined by the Bible..it's available online in PDF format (Adobe):

http://www.higherintellect.info/texts/religion.occult.new_age/occult.conspiracy.and.related/Rice%20-%20Lodges%20Examined%20by%20the%20Bible-Is%20it%20a%20Sin%20for%20a%20Christian%20to%20hav e%20Membershipr.pdf

Actually what we do is open and close meeting with non-sectarian prayer, just like the Boy Scouts and US Congress. What people believe personally is between them and God.

So do you believe that there is only One way to God and that way is Jesus Christ? You can't force others to believe no doubt, but by saying that "what others believe is between them and God," in THIS particular situation, is akin to saying "it's ok with God, just work it out between the two of you. Who am I to say that you must believe in Christ in order to go to heaven?" And if you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, then how can you be ok with a generalized prayer, that doesn't acknowledge Jesus Christ? That's like saying you are ok with not acknowledging Jesus Christ, so long as they tack on the title "God" it must be ok. It's not ok, it really isn't. I have a neighbor that invites us to dinner and does their own little "generalized prayer" too. While we are at their home, I understand respecting their wishes, however, I told my husband that I am not ok with it, I tried to be, but it makes my stomach sick and I can't go for dinner anymore at their home. I feel like if I continue to pray with them and say amen to their general prayer that I am telling them that God hears their prayers even though they reject Jesus Christ. I might as well be lying to them and tell them that the good news isn't that Jesus Christ died for us, but that they can get in on their own good works, because hey...they're good people, they're nice enough, they'll get in, right? Wrong.

Freemasons believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. That's basically what it's about.

Of course, a lot of people *say* they believe in those things, but Freemasons actually practice it.

Freemasons believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. That's basically what it's about.

Of course, a lot of people *say* they believe in those things, but Freemasons actually practice it.

But what about truth? They are free to believe that all they want, but if you call yourself a Christian, shouldn't you be concerned enough with truth to not involve yourself with them? And you didn't really answer my question about what you believe, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God? Because if not, then you are really only Christian in name, your faith would be in vain. The thing is this, there comes a point where you have to make a choice between the truth that is Jesus Christ and all the rest. Don't you think it's time to draw a line in the sand, that they may see there is a difference between you and them, as God did with Israel in Egypt? Eternity is far too important to allow those you run with to continue to believe that you think their eternities are ok, just because they believe in god/God. Your eternity is too important to continue to worship with them, which is what you do when you attend these gatherings, you worship together, through prayer and practice of good deeds.
The free masons can practice freedom of religion and freedom of conscience all they want, but that doesn't make them more righteous before God, than those who believe in Christ, in fact it makes them less righteous. The only ones who find them more righteous are humans, and humans are not our judge...God is, He is the only One who justifies us, not the masons version of righteousness. Please recognize that you seem to be choosing masons over Christ by standing by them. There is nothing wrong with good deeds, but when all kinds of gods get the glory instead of the One True God, then there is a problem. You can serve through ministries at Church and see to it that the True God gets the glory, you don't have to do it through the masons.

So do you believe that there is only One way to God and that way is Jesus Christ? You can't force others to believe no doubt, but by saying that "what others believe is between them and God," in THIS particular situation, is akin to saying "it's ok with God, just work it out between the two of you. Who am I to say that you must believe in Christ in order to go to heaven?" And if you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way, then how can you be ok with a generalized prayer, that doesn't acknowledge Jesus Christ? That's like saying you are ok with not acknowledging Jesus Christ, so long as they tack on the title "God" it must be ok. It's not ok, it really isn't. I have a neighbor that invites us to dinner and does their own little "generalized prayer" too. While we are at their home, I understand respecting their wishes, however, I told my husband that I am not ok with it, I tried to be, but it makes my stomach sick and I can't go for dinner anymore at their home. I feel like if I continue to pray with them and say amen to their general prayer that I am telling them that God hears their prayers even though they reject Jesus Christ. I might as well be lying to them and tell them that the good news isn't that Jesus Christ died for us, but that they can get in on their own good works, because hey...they're good people, they're nice enough, they'll get in, right? Wrong.I believe someone is avoiding answering your many pertinent questions, with good reason. Masons must swear their allegance to their "illustrious potentate", not to Jesus Christ. We all know what Jesus said about swearing oaths.:

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
(Mat 5:34)

I believe someone is avoiding answering your many pertinent questions, with good reason. Masons must swear their allegance to their "illustrious potentate", not to Jesus Christ. We all know what Jesus said about swearing oaths.:

But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
(Mat 5:34)

Well, I just hope that he comes to see the error of this and recognizes the danger he is putting his soul in. :(

Freemasons believe in freedom of conscience and freedom of religion. That's basically what it's about.

Of course, a lot of people *say* they believe in those things, but Freemasons actually practice it.

But this can also be taken as freedom from submission to the One True God. If Jesus is who He said He is, then He is the One True God come in human form. To refuse to submit to Him is to refuse to submit to the One True God (at least as far as the Christian religion goes). In the end, if Freemasons do not promote Jesus as the One True God, then they stand against Him.

I believe someone is avoiding answering your many pertinent questions, with good reason. Masons must swear their allegance to their "illustrious potentate", not to Jesus Christ.

Don't know who told you this, but it is completely false.

Don't know who told you this, but it is completely false.No one told me. I saw it in a green hard cover book. When I was younger, I worked at a place where we just 'killed time' much of the time. My boss there was going through initiation to be a mason. He wasn't well educated and needed help in reading things he was supposed to memorize, so he asked me to help. I don't recall the exact wording in the book but in it, he did have to swear allegance to "the illustrious potentate". I'm sure it was the words, "Illustrious potentate" because I had to look up potentate in a dictionary later, to know what he was reciting. If you are a mason, maybe it's been some time since you had that initiation, then find that book and re-read what you had to promise in your initiation. Then you will recall what I said.

No one told me. I saw it in a green hard cover book. When I was younger, I worked at a place where we just 'killed time' much of the time. My boss there was going through initiation to be a mason. He wasn't well educated and needed help in reading things he was supposed to memorize, so he asked me to help. I don't recall the exact wording in the book but in it, he did have to swear allegance to "the illustrious potentate". I'm sure it was the words, "Illustrious potentate" because I had to look up potentate in a dictionary later, to know what he was reciting. If you are a mason, maybe it's been some time since you had that initiation, then find that book and re-read what you had to promise in your initiation. Then you will recall what I said.

The "Illustrious Potentate" is an officer in the Shriners, not the Freemasons.

Shriners do not "swear allegiance" to the Illustrious Potentate. The Potentate is simply a guy who has been elected as the presiding officer of a group of Shriners called an Oasis. He is what other organizations would call the President. He serves a one year term as presiding officer, then goes back to being a regular Shriner.

The "Illustrious Potentate" is an officer in the Shriners, not the Freemasons.

Shriners do not "swear allegiance" to the Illustrious Potentate. The Potentate is simply a guy who has been elected as the presiding officer of a group of Shriners called an Oasis. He is what other organizations would call the President. He serves a one year term as presiding officer, then goes back to being a regular Shriner.They must do things differently in Kentucky. That's where I know I read what I said I read and I know the dude was going to be a mason, not a shriner.

They must do things differently in Kentucky. That's where I know I read what I said I read and I know the dude was going to be a mason, not a shriner.

It's the same all over, internationally. If the term "Illustrious Potentate" was used, it was the Shriners. There are four Shrine Temples in Kentucky; you can visit their respective websites and see for yourself:


http://www.shrinersinternational.org/Locations.aspx?loc=kentucky

For the record, I'm also a Shriner, and Shriners do not swear allegiance to individual members (nor do the Masons).

They must do things differently in Kentucky. That's where I know I read what I said I read and I know the dude was going to be a mason, not a shriner.
Question: "Who are the Shriners?"

Answer: The Shriners organization is called the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine, or A.A.O.N.M.S. It was established in New York City in 1870, and is an appendant body to Freemasonry. From its inception, the focus was on camaraderie, and Shriners use the phrase "Pleasure without intemperance, hospitality without rudeness and jollity without coarseness." The Shriners are a fraternal organization, and its members are bound by oaths of loyalty. The membership is limited to men that are third degree, or master Masons. Apparently there is no direct connection to Islam, even though they have a Middle Eastern theme in their dress and logos.

Freemasonry is shrouded in mystery, and many consider it to be a quasi-religious body. Conservative, fundamental churches commonly do not allow oath-bound members of such organizations to be members of their churches. Externally, Freemasonry exists as a social/fraternal organization and seems to exist primarily for social purposes. The belief system of the Shriners arises from their association with Freemasonry, but they do not seem to aggressively recruit members or actively propagate the teachings of the parent body.

The Shriners have several socially beneficial projects. The most significant one is the Shriners Hospitals, which they control through the Imperial Council, their governing board. While the Shriners do some good and admirable things, due to their connection with Freemasonry, Christians should not be members of, or associated with, the Shriners.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Shriners.html#http://

My late brother-in-law was a Shriner (a 33rd degree Mason). I asked him what a Shriner was and he told me that a Shriner was a 33rd degree Mason. His wife was high up in the Order of the Eastern Star...both members of an SBC church.

My late brother-in-law was a Shriner (a 33rd degree Mason). I asked him what a Shriner was and he told me that a Shriner was a 33rd degree Mason. His wife was high up in the Order of the Eastern Star...both members of an SBC church.

Some Shriners are 33° Masons (I am). Most Shriners, however, are not.

Originally, it was required that, in order to join the Shriners, one had either to be at least a 32° Mason in the Scottish Rite, or a Knight Templar in the York Rite. This rule was changed in 2001, and now all that is required to become a Shriner is to be a Master Mason, Third Degree.

There is currently a strong movement within Shrinedom to completely drop all the Masonic prerequisites altogether. This would allow non-Masons to become Shriners, and is almost certain to happen in the next 5 - 10 years.

But this can also be taken as freedom from submission to the One True God. If Jesus is who He said He is, then He is the One True God come in human form. To refuse to submit to Him is to refuse to submit to the One True God (at least as far as the Christian religion goes). In the end, if Freemasons do not promote Jesus as the One True God, then they stand against Him.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premisses. For example, the New York Yankees do not promote Jesus as the one true God. However, it does not follow that they "stand against him".

Freemasonry is a fraternal organization, and its activities are fraternal in nature, not religious.

Just chiming in here. Turning point in this debate for me was when KT denied that there was a 'burial vault' in one reply and then admitted that there was a coffin soon afterward. It makes it appear as though he is hiding information, which is pretty much what masons seem to do.

Why the reluctance to admit that the lodge does teach (directly or otherwise) that we can gain entrance to the 'celestial lodge' by good works. The lodge obviously does NOT teach 'faith' in Christ, because that would offend non-Christians. I have masons in my family who are hopeful that their lodge-related works will place them in good standing with God (or the GAOU, whoever he is, allah, bel, lucifer, etc....)

Celestial lodge, GAOU, Hiram Abif, ..... blood oaths, works-based salvation.... Why should a Christian want to be a mason?

It's the same all over, internationally. If the term "Illustrious Potentate" was used, it was the Shriners. There are four Shrine Temples in Kentucky; you can visit their respective websites and see for yourself:


http://www.shrinersinternational.org/Locations.aspx?loc=kentucky

For the record, I'm also a Shriner, and Shriners do not swear allegiance to individual members (nor do the Masons).Not individual members, just potentates?

Not individual members, just potentates?

Ummm, no. Potentates are individual members. Nobody swears allegiance to anybody else in Masonry or Shrinedom.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premisses. For example, the New York Yankees do not promote Jesus as the one true God. However, it does not follow that they "stand against him".

Freemasonry is a fraternal organization, and its activities are fraternal in nature, not religious.

But the New York Yankees do not claim to speak anything significant in the spiritual realm.

According to Albert Pike (1809-1891), Grand Commander, 1859-1891, author of Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and Albert G. Mackey (1807-1881), who was the Grand Lecturer and Grand Secretary of The Grand Lodge of South Carolina as well as Secretary General of the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, Freemasonry IS a religion:



Custodian of Truth

(Masonry) "The custodian and depository (since Enoch) of the great philosophical and religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems and allegories." (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Albert Pike, page 210)


A Religious Institution

"Masonry, is in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution - that it is indebted solely to the religious element which it contains for its origin and for its continued existence and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy of cultivation by the wise and good."..."Freemasonry is NOT Christianity not a substitute for it"..."But the religion of Masonry is not sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting institutions; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Albert G. Mackey, Revised Edition, 1921, pages 618, 619)


The Foundation of Religion

"It [Masonry] is the universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long-lived that was not built on this foundation. It is the base and they are the superstructure." (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Albert Pike, page 219)


Temple of Religion

"Every Masonic Temple is a Temple of Religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion." (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Albert Pike, page 213)

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/mason1.htm#02


Freemasonry is a fraternal organization, and its activities are fraternal in nature, not religious.
Albert Pike and Albert G. Mackey (both Freemasons) don't agree with your statement that Freemasonry is a fraternal organization.

According to Albert Pike (1809-1891), Grand Commander, 1859-1891, author of Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry and Albert G. Mackey (1807-1881), who was the Grand Lecturer and Grand Secretary of The Grand Lodge of South Carolina as well as Secretary General of the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite for the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States, Freemasonry IS a religion


Incorrect. Albert Pike wrote:

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 161

Dr. Albert G. Mackey wrote:

There has been a needless expenditure of ingenuity and talent, by a large number of Masonic orators and essayists, in the endeavor to prove that Freemasonry is not a religion. This has usually arisen from a well-intended but erroneous view that has been assumed of the connection between religion and Freemasonry, and from a fear that if the complete disseverance of the two was not made manifest, the opponents of Freemasonry would be enabled successfully to establish a theory which they have been fond of advancing, that the Freemasons were disposed to substitute the teachings of their Order for the truths of Christianity.

Now we have never for a moment believed that any such unwarrantable assumption, as that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for Christianity, could ever obtain admission into any well-regulated mind. - Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 974

As far as religion goes, Pike was an Episcopalian and Mackey was a Unitarian.

But the New York Yankees do not claim to speak anything significant in the spiritual realm.

Neither do the Freemasons.

Incorrect. Albert Pike wrote:

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 161
Then Albert Pike contradicted himself elsewhere in Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. In the very next paragraph of that same page from which you quote, he says:


But Masonry teaches, and has preserved in their purity, the cardinal tenets of the old primitive faith, which underlie and are the foundation of all religions. All that ever existed have had a basis of truth; and all have overlaid that truth with errors. The primitive truths taught by the Redeemer were sooner corrupted, and intermingled and alloyed with fictions than when taught to the first of our race. Masonry is the universal morality which is suitable to the inhabitants of every clime, to the man of every creed. It has taught no doctrines, except those truths that tend directly to the well-being of man; and those who have attempted to direct it toward useless vengeance, political ends, and Jesuitism, have merely perverted it to purposes foreign to its pure spirit and real nature

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/md11.htm#page_161

Dr. Albert G. Mackey wrote:

There has been a needless expenditure of ingenuity and talent, by a large number of Masonic orators and essayists, in the endeavor to prove that Freemasonry is not a religion. This has usually arisen from a well-intended but erroneous view that has been assumed of the connection between religion and Freemasonry, and from a fear that if the complete disseverance of the two was not made manifest, the opponents of Freemasonry would be enabled successfully to establish a theory which they have been fond of advancing, that the Freemasons were disposed to substitute the teachings of their Order for the truths of Christianity.

Now we have never for a moment believed that any such unwarrantable assumption, as that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for Christianity, could ever obtain admission into any well-regulated mind. - Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 974
Making the claim that Freemasonry is not a substitute for Christianity does not mean that Freemasonry is not a religion, nor does it mean that what it teaches is not religious. I have checked out Dr. Mackey's book The Symbolism of Freemasonry and it is loaded with "religious" symbols from the Bible...and other "religious sacred" texts. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that Freemasonry is an ecumenical and pagan religious organization which integrates the Bible with paganism...and anyone who professes Christ to be his Savior and Lord should separate from this anti-Biblical, anti-Christian ecumenical, pagan, and religious organization according to what God's Word states:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As far as religion goes, Pike was an Episcopalian and Mackey was a Unitarian.
That makes no difference what denomination those men were. If they never trusted Christ as their Savior and Lord, then they were lost.

Then Albert Pike contradicted himself elsewhere in Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.

He does not seem to have contradicted himself. He first said that Masonry was not a religion. He then referred to it as a "vast fraternal association". Simply put, Albert Pike did not consider Freemasonry "a" religion, nor did he consider it "his" religion. He considered Freemasonry his fraternity, and Christianity his religion.

Incorrect. Albert Pike wrote:

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, p. 161

Dr. Albert G. Mackey wrote:

There has been a needless expenditure of ingenuity and talent, by a large number of Masonic orators and essayists, in the endeavor to prove that Freemasonry is not a religion. This has usually arisen from a well-intended but erroneous view that has been assumed of the connection between religion and Freemasonry, and from a fear that if the complete disseverance of the two was not made manifest, the opponents of Freemasonry would be enabled successfully to establish a theory which they have been fond of advancing, that the Freemasons were disposed to substitute the teachings of their Order for the truths of Christianity.

Now we have never for a moment believed that any such unwarrantable assumption, as that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for Christianity, could ever obtain admission into any well-regulated mind. - Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, p. 974

As far as religion goes, Pike was an Episcopalian and Mackey was a Unitarian.That's a horrible misrepresentation of the truth. You need to quote that full thought to understand the meaning. I found your quoted passage but it goes on:

"Now we have never for a moment believed that any such unwarrantable assumption, as that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for Christianity, could ever obtain admission into any well-regulated mind, and, therefore, us are not disposed to yield on the subject of the religious character of Freemasonry, quite so much as has been yielded by more timid Brethren. On the contrary, we contend, without any sort of hesitation, that Freemasonry is, in every sense of the word, except one, and that its least philosophical, an eminently religious institution—that it is indebted solely to the religious element it contains for its origin as well as its continued existence, and that without this religious element it would scarcely be worthy of cultivate on by the wise and good. But, that we may be truly understood, it will be well first to agree upon the true definition of religion. There is nothing more illogical than to reason upon undefined terms. Webster has given four distinct definitions of religion: ... Now, it is plain that, in either of the first three senses in which we may take the word religion, and they do not very materially differ from each other, Freemasonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution. Closely and accurately examined, it will be found to answer to any one of the requirements of either of these three definitions. So much does it "include a belief in the being and perfections of God," that the public profession of such a faith is essentially necessary to gain admission into the Order. "

KnightTempar, in the future, tell the truth, THE WHOLE TRUTH, and nothing but the truth.

[FONT=arial][SIZE=3]That's a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.

It wasn't a misrepresentation at all. Dr. Mackey wrote that it is unwarranted that any well-regulated mind could believe that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for religion. He was absolutely correct.

Some Shriners are 33° Masons (I am). Most Shriners, however, are not.

Originally, it was required that, in order to join the Shriners, one had either to be at least a 32° Mason in the Scottish Rite, or a Knight Templar in the York Rite. This rule was changed in 2001, and now all that is required to become a Shriner is to be a Master Mason, Third Degree.

There is currently a strong movement within Shrinedom to completely drop all the Masonic prerequisites altogether. This would allow non-Masons to become Shriners, and is almost certain to happen in the next 5 - 10 years.

My Grandfather was a Shriner (Al Chymia) for 30 years. My uncle is one. You can't serve Jesus Christ and be one.

It wasn't a misrepresentation at all. Dr. Mackey wrote that it is unwarranted that any well-regulated mind could believe that Freemasonry is intended to be a substitute for religion. He was absolutely correct.Excuse me. Go back a few posts of yours. You quoted Dr. Mackey as saying Freemasonry was not "intended to be a substitute for Christianity." Now you twist his words to mean "religion" and not "Christianity". I found that quote online and the same discourse, he states, "Freemasonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution. Closely and accurately examined, it will be found to answer to any one of the requirements of either of these three definitions."

Please stop twisting the truth of your own quote and denying the truth of the matter. If you need to see the quote to refresh your memory, it is here (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/r.htm). (scroll down to the heading "RELIGION").

Excuse me. Go back a few posts of yours. You quoted Dr. Mackey as saying Freemasonry was not "intended to be a substitute for Christianity." Now you twist his words to mean "religion" and not "Christianity". I found that quote online and the same discourse, he states, "Freemasonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution. Closely and accurately examined, it will be found to answer to any one of the requirements of either of these three definitions."

Please stop twisting the truth of your own quote and denying the truth of the matter. If you need to see the quote to refresh your memory, it is here (http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/mackeys_encyclopedia/r.htm). (scroll down to the heading "RELIGION").

How exactly have I "twisted the truth"? Allow me to introduce you to something called facts:

1. Sheina claimed that Pike and Mackey said that Freemasonry was a religion.

2. I quoted both authors in refutation of that claim.

And that's pretty much the end of it.

Yes, Pike and Mackey were well-aware that Freemasonry could be considered "religious" in a certain sense. But both pointed out the impossibilty of it being a religion. It's certainly not surprising that the ones who claim it is a "religion" are non-Masons who usually have an anti-Masonic agenda. You won't find actual Masons who think it's a religion, after all.

...You won't find actual Masons who think it's a religion, after all.

Of course you won't. Neither will you find Mormons who believe they follow a different Christ, or will any of the 'cults' believe that they are 'cults'.

It is not surprising in any way that a Mason would say that "The Craft" of the Mason is not a religion....

... this does not change the fact that it is one, and that no Follower of Christ has ANY place having ANY thing to do with it.

Of course you won't. Neither will you find Mormons who believe they follow a different Christ, or will any of the 'cults' believe that they are 'cults'.

It is not surprising in any way that a Mason would say that "The Craft" of the Mason is not a religion....

... this does not change the fact that it is one, and that no Follower of Christ has ANY place having ANY thing to do with it.
Exactly...

"Masonry, like all the religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, CONCEALS its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it." (Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, By Albert Pike, pages 104-105)

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/mason1.htm#012http://

How exactly have I "twisted the truth"? Allow me to introduce you to something called facts:

1. Sheina claimed that Pike and Mackey said that Freemasonry was a religion.

2. I quoted both authors in refutation of that claim...You took a piece of a quote, stating it backs your claim, but if you take the full quote, you KNOW that he said the opposite of what you said, "Freemasonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution."

Claiming Dr. Mackey says it's not a religion is a twist of the actual truth.

You took a piece of a quote, stating it backs your claim, but if you take the full quote, you KNOW that he said the opposite of what you said, "Freemasonry may rightfully claim to be called a religious institution."

Claiming Dr. Mackey says it's not a religion is a twist of the actual truth.

No, it's not a twist of truth, it's a fact. Mackey says that no "well-governed mind" would entertain the notion of substituting Freemasonry for religion. Since it's not possible to conclude that Masonry is a religion, Brother Mackey says he's not shy about calling it a "religious institution".

Again, Mackey's *religion* was not Freemasonry, it was his membership in the All Souls Unitarian Church of Charleston, South Carolina. Both Pike and Mackey denied that Masonry is a religion....which, of course, is only natural, since it isn't.

No, it's not a twist of truth, it's a fact. Mackey says that no "well-governed mind" would entertain the notion of substituting Freemasonry for religion. Since it's not possible to conclude that Masonry is a religion, Brother Mackey says he's not shy about calling it a "religious institution".

Again, Mackey's *religion* was not Freemasonry, it was his membership in the All Souls Unitarian Church of Charleston, South Carolina. Both Pike and Mackey denied that Masonry is a religion....which, of course, is only natural, since it isn't.Then why would Albert Pike say the following about the "Masonic Religion"?

"That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?" -Albert Pike

That quote was found at this website (http://goddrinksbeer.wordpress.com/2008/06/03/albert-pike-and-the-luciferian-quote/).

Then why would Albert Pike say the following about the "Masonic Religion"?

That's a well known hoax.

In fact, even the article you linked to says the quote is fake. And I quote:

For rational people, this ended the concern over the “Luciferian Quote.” But the irrational and those who have a vested interest in hating Freemasonry still like to throw the quote around, attributing it to Albert Pike even though it is a well known fraud. The myth has been perpetuated by the preacher Pat Robertson, and it has been republished by Jack Chick in his Christian comic books since 1991. The quote can also be found splattered cross the internet on countless misinformed conspiracy sites.

Did you even read it?

Disclaimer: the Chick comic book people eventually removed the fake quote from their Freemasonry tract.

A Grand Chaplain Speaks Out

by Harmon R. Taylor


GRAND LODGE FREE AND ACCEPTED MASONS OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK GRAND CHAPLAIN 1983-1984 REV. HARMON R. TAYLOR
Dear Servant of God, Knowing that you desire to serve the Lord with all your heart, I share this letter with you. Perhaps you have been struggling with the same situation. On November 22nd, I sent the facts contained in this letter to all Masonic bodies of which I am a member. I invite you to prayerfully read it. It will explain why I as a Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of the State of New York am requesting a demit from all bodies of the Masonic fraternity. There is much more that I could share. I would be happy to share more if it will help you in the Lord's service.

Many have asked me if Freemasonry is a religion. I have always responded "No". Others have told me that it is a religion. Study has revealed the fact that learned writers in the fraternity say MASONRY IS A RELIGION. The Lord Jesus Christ said, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word is established" (Matthew 18:16). In order to be brief, I will quote only four Masonic authorities that masonry is a religion.

Albert Mackey, one of the most well known Masonic authorities, wrote in A LEXICON OF FREEMASONRY (Pg. 402): "The religion, then, masonry, is pure theism...".

Albert Pike, the most important of all American Masonic authorities wrote in MORALS AND DOGMA (Pg. 213-214): "Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion...this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures."

J.S.M. Ward, a Masonic authority who has written several important books on masonry, wrote in his book FREEMASONRY: ITS AIMS & IDEALS (Pg.185): "I consider freemasonry is a significantly organized school of mysticism to be entitled to be called a religion." Ward continues on page 187, "Freemasonry...taught that each man can by himself, work out his own conception of god and thereby achieve salvation." It holds that there are many paths that lead to the throne of the all-loving father which all start from a common source. Freemasonry believes, according to Ward, "that though these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to other, another."

"Frank C. Higgins, a high mason, wrote in ANCIENT FREE MASONRY (Pg.10), "It is true that Freemasonry is the parent of all religion."

These Masonic witnesses all agree in their doctrine that masonry is, indeed, a religion. It is necessary now to ascertain whether masonry is a true religion or a false religion. In an article entitled, "HOW TO RECOGNIZE A FALSE RELIGION" (Faith for the Family Nov/Dec 1974), a prominent Christian leader wrote: "All false religions, have some things in common. Here are three simple tests by which any religion should be judged:

FIRST: What is its attitude toward the Bible?

SECOND: Any religious teaching should be tested by this question; What is its attitude toward Jesus Christ?

THIRD: In judging a religious system, we should ask, What is its attitude toward the blood of Jesus Christ!"

According to these three tests, masonry is a false religion manifesting a satanic attitude toward the Bible, the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. In order to establish this charge, keep in mind the Word our Lord Jesus Christ who said, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established." Please consider now the testimony of Masonic authorities which reveal Masonry's satanic attitude toward the Bible, the Deity of Jesus Christ and the vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind by the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross.

Joseph Ford Newton, a famous authority and writer, in an article entitled "The Bible and Masonry" wrote "The bible so rich in symbolism is itself a symbol...thus, by the very honor which masonry pays the Bible, it teaches us to revere every book of faith in which men find help for today and hope for tomorrow, joining hands with the man of Islam as he takes his oath on the Koran, with the Hindu as he makes covenant with God upon the book that he loves best."

Albert Pike, in Morals & Dogma, wrote (Pg.718) "Masonry propagates no creed except it's own most simple sublime one; that universal religion, taught by nature and reason."

One who is truly born-again can see from the above statement that masonry totally rejects the doctrine of an infallible, God-breathed, inerrant Bible.

According to the Second Test, masonry is a false religion because it totally rejects the crucial doctrine of the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

J.D. Buck, M.D., another Masonic writer of importance, in his book Symbolism of Mystic Masonry wrote (Pg.57) "In the early Church as in the secret doctrine, there was not one Christ for the world but a potential Christ in every man. Theologians first made a fetish of the impersonal, Omnipresent divinity; and then tore the Christos from the hearts of all humanity in order to Deify Jesus; that they might have a God-Man particularly their own."

One would have to look far and wide in the writings of false teachers to find statements more blasphemous than this about the person of Jesus Christ, my Lord.

According to the Third Test, masonry is a false religion because masonry dogmatically rejects the doctrine of salvation from the penalty of sin by faith in the vicarious atonement of Christ's shed blood on the cross.

Thomas Milton Steward, another Masonic author, in his book Symbolic Teaching on Masonry and Its Message, to support his doctrine quoted favorable an apostate Episcopal minister who wrote (Pg.177), "Did Jesus count Himself, conceive of Himself as a proprietary sacrifice and of His work as an expiation? The only answer possible is, clearly, He did not...He does not call Himself the world's priest, or the world's victim."

Salvation by Faith in the vicarious atonement are not "ignorant perversions of the original doctrines" as masonry teaches, but they are vital ingredients of the Glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto Salvation to everyone who believes. THEREFORE, masonry fails all three tests. It manifests a satanic attitude toward the Bible, the Deity of Christ, and the vicarious atonement. In addition to failing these tests, there is much more proof that masonry is a false religion.

For instance, Henry C. Clausen, 33 decree, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 33 Decree mother council of the world, in the NEW AGE, November, 1970, (Pg.4) wrote regarding masonry, "It is dedicated to bringing about the Fatherhood of God, the Brotherhood of Man, and making better men in a better world."

The doctrine of the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man is not found in the Bible. It is a doctrine taught consistently by apostates. Also, the Bible makes it crystal clear that no organization, masonry included, can make better men. Only God can make better men!

According to a Masonic creed, found in the Masonic Bible, masonry teaches that "character determines destiny."

The teaching that character determines destiny is a false doctrine of the Arch Deceiver of Souls. The Bible says, "There is none that doeth good," and "For by Grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Masonry is anti-Christian in its teachings. For example, J.M. Ward in FREEMASONRY - ITS AIMS AND IDEALS wrote (Pg.187), "I boldly aver that freemasonry is a religion, yet it no way conflicts with any other religion, unless that religion holds that no one outside its portals can be saved." Ward, in his statement, reveals the fact that masonry has no conflict with any apostate religion on the face of the earth, but he also reveals that masonry is in conflict with Christianity. The Bible says, "Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12). Jesus said, "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (Jn. 14:6). The Bible is plainly teaching that there is only one way to heaven and the is Christ.

A prominent college president said of masonry, "It is a luciferian religion. We are fully aware of its diabolical origin and purpose. I believe that any born-again Christian, when the facts from the lips of Masonic writers themselves are presented showing that masonry is a religion and is the worship of Satan, will immediately withdraw." To this I must add my hearty agreement!

The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only True and Living God, has clearly commanded Christian, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14), and swear not at all (Matthew 5:34), and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:11).

Charles Finney, the famed evangelist who God used to bring a revival in America in the 1830's, in his book, FREEMASONRY wrote (Pg.115), "Surely, if masons really understood what Masonry is, as it is delineated in these books, no Christian Mason would think himself to remain at liberty to remain another day a member of the fraternity. It is as plain as possible that a man knowing what it is, and embracing it in his heart, cannot be a Christian man. To say he can is to belie the very nature of Christianity."

For me, the signs of the time compared with prophetic Scripture, make it apparent that we are living in the last days prior to the Rapture of the Church. Satan is hard at work trying to hinder believers' spiritual growth, as well as trying to keep the unsaved from entering God's Family. Freemasonry, I have come to believe, is one of Satan's master deceptions. Many ministers, elders, deacons, trustees, and Sunday School teachers belong to this cult. Today, my membership ends! Today, a new ministry begins. There is a tremendous need to scrutinize the cultic nature of Freemasonry in view of the massive infiltration of its effects on the working body of the Church. It should be exposed to the True Light - Jesus Christ!

Love in Christ, Harmon R. Taylor mason3.htm


FOR INFORMATION CONTACT REV. HARMON R. TAYLOR BOX 12 NEWTONVILLE, NY 12128

OR

FREE THE MASONS MINISTRIES P.O. BOX 1077 ISSAQUAH, WA 98027

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/mason3.htm