I've noticed some comments from presumably Jewish poster relating to their attitude to Christianity and Jesus (somewhat negative). So i'm wondering what are the differences between Jewish and Christian doctrine. All i know so far is that they deny the deity of Jesus etc and how did a difference arise between it and christianity even tho they have the same origins?

You nailed the it with the hammer, right on the head!

Jesus Christ.

Some Jews(Simeon, Anna, Peter, Nicodemus, Paul, Zacchaeus, Silas, etc...), accept/ed Jesus as God, and as the fulfillment of the O.T. writings.
(They later came to be called Christians, because of their alignment in following Christ.)


Some Jews(Herod, Judas, Caiphas, Ananias, Gamaliel, etc...), reject/ed Jesus as being God, and as the fulfillment of the O.T. writings.

That's about the entire plumb-line on the difference.

But then, so Jews still follow the old laws in the OT?

(thought I'd add to this instead of starting a new thread...)

They do what they can to... the only Laws they don't follow are ones regarding the Temple, since it doesn't exist... if I remember my Judaism class correctly, after the Jews figured out that they were not going to have a temple for a long time (after it got blowed up in 70 AD), their rabbis began to re-interpret certain parts of the Tanakh to explain why they aren't presently required to worry about offerings and sacrifices.

From what I understand, most sects of Judaism use the term Tanakh instead of Old Testament.

That's because for them there's only one Testament...

"Tanakh" is actually "TNK", an acronym for Torah (the teachings) + Nevi'im (the prophets) + Ketuvim (the writings).

So how to Jews think one gets to Heaven?

So how to Jews think one gets to Heaven?
Jews do not all necessarily believe in an afterlife although some do. It is not a major part of the Jewish faith.
They believe they should be good people and do good for others because that is what God wants them to do and the Orthodox believe they should follow the OT law as closely as is humanly possible. But it is not so they will get to heaven.
Fenris can probably give a better answer than that.
I was raised in the Reform Jewish religion (they follow the fewest laws and think they can pick and chose what ones to follow).
I am now a born again Christian.

Jews do not all necessarily believe in an afterlife although some do. It is not a major part of the Jewish faith.
They believe they should be good people and do good for others because that is what God wants them to do and the Orthodox believe they should follow the OT law as closely as is humanly possible. But it is not so they will get to heaven.
Fenris can probably give a better answer than that.
I was raised in the Reform Jewish religion (they follow the fewest laws and think they can pick and chose what ones to follow).
I am now a born again Christian.

Hey thanks. Yeah I just feel bad as I'm sure every single person here goes straight to him and he answers the same thing over and over...

:) good question

I believe David nailed it .

Because of the dispersion of the Jewish people
countless Jews over time become Christian
as a matter of fact some Jewish people were
born and raised predominantly Christian , but the fact that they were does in no way change the fact that they are Jews . Thus they become known as Jewish Christians .

For instance if u are Italian , u can also be of the Christian faith but that wont change the origin of your last name .

Last names and there origins (where they originated) determines where your ancestors come from .

consider the Jewish orphans , millions of Jewish children were as well dispersed and most of them know very little about their Jewishness or their ancestry. This was due to the persecution of the Jewish people .

Hi Motormouf
So i'm wondering what are the differences between Jewish and Christian doctrine.
http://www.jewfaq.org
www.jewishencyclopedia.com
etc.

Judaism, like any other umbrella of different denominations has as many different doctrines as there are different schools and groups. And like any other religion doctrines change over time. You can see the differences by comparing a modern FAQ on the afterlife with OT teaching.

For example http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messianic.htm), a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/messiah.htm) comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected. That last statement conflicts with Dan 12:2, not to mention Paul to the Pharisees in Acts 24:25. "that themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust"so there's been some drift from Paul's day till now.

etc. that's just one example.

Jews do not all necessarily believe in an afterlife although some do. It is not a major part of the Jewish faith.Depending on which tradition you follow...

The Pharisees were die-hard believers in the resurrection, whereas the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection at all. The Pharisee doctrines are, more or less, the doctrines that existed beyond the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Meaning... most Jewish denominations have the resurrection (and hence, an afterlife) as a major part of their beliefs.

Of course, not all Jews necessarily adhere to those beliefs, just like not all Christians necessarily adhere to the beliefs of the church they attend.

That's because for them there's only one Testament...

"Tanakh" is actually "TNK", an acronym for Torah (the teachings) + Nevi'im (the prophets) + Ketuvim (the writings).

Hello Mark.

What about their 'oral' testament?

The "oral Torah", written down in the Talmud, is just Rabbinical commentary and interpretation of the Tanakh. It's not technically a "new" or "second" testament because it doesn't have any new revelation in it.

(Hence, the New Testament is called as such because it consists of a "new" revelation of God to man, namely, the identity of his Messiah, the establishment of the new Covenant, and the means by which man is saved.)

Hey there Mark.

I think I see what you are saying in context of a Covenant/Testament given by God Himself.

In this respect, indeed there are two Covenants.

However, there is the rabbinic oral 'torah' (man-made testament), as you mentioned........ the Talmud.

I don't know that I can agree that it is 'just rabbinical commentary' because it undermines the Word of God.

This is no small thing.....but a serious offence agianst the Word Himself.


Peace and Truth in Jesus Christ our Lord,
pinky

what do the jews believe

It's more like "what the jews don't believe".

I think I see what you are saying in context of a Covenant/Testament given by God Himself.
In this respect, indeed there are two Covenants.
However, there is the rabbinic oral 'torah' (man-made testament), as you mentioned........ the Talmud.
I don't know that I can agree that it is 'just rabbinical commentary' because it undermines the Word of God.
This is no small thing.....but a serious offence agianst the Word Himself.

We're talking about "what Jews believe". The Jews "believe" that the Talmud is not a "new" testament in relation to the Tanakh. The Jews "believe" that the Talmud is just as old as the Tanakh itself, and that it takes the form of rabbinical commentary and interpretation.

I did not say that I believed this... this is what most Jews believe. I agree with you; the Talmud is man-made, and there is no evidence that it existed as far back as the time of Moses... certainly there is nothing in written Scripture to suggest that it existed at that time, and the earliest known reference to anything found from the "oral Torah" comes from about the second-century BC.

Depending on which tradition you follow...

The Pharisees were die-hard believers in the resurrection, whereas the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection at all. The Pharisee doctrines are, more or less, the doctrines that existed beyond the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Meaning... most Jewish denominations have the resurrection (and hence, an afterlife) as a major part of their beliefs.

Of course, not all Jews necessarily adhere to those beliefs, just like not all Christians necessarily adhere to the beliefs of the church they attend.
The Jewish religion does not have "denominations".
There are Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform - which are not "denominations", but rather refers to the degree to which they hold to the law.
There are some other sects such as Hassidic which is an Orthodox group.
They do have a belief in an afterlife, but it is not "heaven" and it is not seen as something they need to work towards as a goal.
The goal of the Jew is not life after death.
The goal of the Jew is to live a good Jewish life doing what pleases God - not in order to "get into heaven", but because that is what you should do.
I think perhaps there are other Orthodox Jews who also believe in some sort of afterlife - here is an article on that http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
but it is not a required belief of the Jewish religion and not one that is held by all Jews.
I grew up in the Reform Jewish religion and had never heard of any sort of afterlife belief that was a part of the religion - not in religious schools or in services or at any of the funerals I went to.
I just thought you died and that was it.

A "denomination" is "a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity".

Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Liberal, Humanistic, etc., can rightly be called "denominations", because by the definition of the word that's what they are.

The goal of the Jew is to live a good Jewish life doing what pleases God - not in order to "get into heaven", but because that is what you should do.


It would be interesting to compair this to Christianity. Is it not the goal also of the Christian to please God? I don't believe (in Jesus) simply to attain heaven, but heaven is a reward for my belief.

Is this correct?

They do have a belief in an afterlife, but it is not "heaven" and it is not seen as something they need to work towards as a goal.

What do they call it, or see it as i wonder...

We're talking about "what Jews believe". The Jews "believe" that the Talmud is not a "new" testament in relation to the Tanakh. The Jews "believe" that the Talmud is just as old as the Tanakh itself, and that it takes the form of rabbinical commentary and interpretation.

I did not say that I believed this... this is what most Jews believe. I agree with you; the Talmud is man-made, and there is no evidence that it existed as far back as the time of Moses... certainly there is nothing in written Scripture to suggest that it existed at that time, and the earliest known reference to anything found from the "oral Torah" comes from about the second-century BC.

Thank you for clarifying.

My apologies if I misunderstood.

God bless you,
pinky

What do they call it, or see it as i wonder...

They call it Olam haba (the world to come).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology#Olam_Haba_-_the_afterlife_and_the_world_to_come

What do they call it, or see it as i wonder...
Here is the link to the article about it that I posted already http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
It is a good article.
Here are a few quotes from it:


Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/death.htm) is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion.


unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it.

unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



Gal. 6:8 For he who sows unto his own flesh will reap corruption of the flesh, but he who sows unto the Spirit will of the Spirit reap eternal life.


The eternal life referred to in this verse is the uncreated ever existing life of God. It does not refer to just "life after death" or "heaven", but to God's very life, which is the eternal life which is Christ Himself as our life.

And the Jewish focus on life and how to live it is not necessarily on the "flesh", but on living the kind of life that God wants them to live.

However, there is the rabbinic oral 'torah' (man-made testament), as you mentioned........ the Talmud.

I don't know that I can agree that it is 'just rabbinical commentary' because it undermines the Word of God.
We've gone round and round on this topic. Whether the Talmud is correct or not, some other body of knowledge must have been given at Sinai. The bible as written is far too cryptic and too lacking in information to be understood by itself. Some examples:

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be the beginning of months for you;

Which month? How many days in a month? How many months in a year?

Leviticus 23: 42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days...

What is a "booth"? The Hebrew word actually means "shelter". Isn't my house a shelter? Why can't I just stay in my home?

Leviticus 23: 40 And ye shall take you on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook, and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

What is "fruit of goodly trees"? What is "boughs of thick trees"?

Exodus 20: 8 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; 9 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work...

What is "work"?

Etc etc. As I said, the Talmud may be right or it may be wrong, but there must have been some other body of knowledge that provided the fine details for hundreds of terms in the bible that are unknowable otherwise.

And the Jewish focus on life and how to live it is not necessarily on the "flesh", but on living the kind of life that God wants them to live.

Why do so many Christians think that unbelieving Jews can please God without faith in Christ?

This may be politically correct....but is it Biblically sound?

Hbr 11:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=11&v=6&t=KJV#6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Judaism does indeed focus on the flesh.
It justifies them in their 'flesh'.......through genealogies and works.

Rom 9:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=9&v=32&t=KJV#32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=2&v=16&t=KJV#16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Why are they called 'children of the flesh'?

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Are they really able to 'live the life that God wants them to live' if they are without faith in the Messiah that was sent unto them?

We've gone round and round on this topic. Whether the Talmud is correct or not, some other body of knowledge must have been given at Sinai. The bible as written is far too cryptic and too lacking in information to be understood by itself. Some examples:

Exodus 12:2 This month shall be the beginning of months for you;

Which month? How many days in a month? How many months in a year?

Leviticus 23: 42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days...

What is a "booth"? The Hebrew word actually means "shelter". Isn't my house a shelter? Why can't I just stay in my home?

Leviticus 23: 40 And ye shall take you on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook, and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

What is "fruit of goodly trees"? What is "boughs of thick trees"?

Exodus 20: 8 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; 9 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work...

What is "work"?

Etc etc. As I said, the Talmud may be right or it may be wrong, but there must have been some other body of knowledge that provided the fine details for hundreds of terms in the bible that are unknowable otherwise.

I see your point Fenris , thank you.
Dan.

Why do so many Christians think that unbelieving Jews can please God without faith in Christ?

This may be politically correct....but is it Biblically sound?

Hbr 11:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=11&v=6&t=KJV#6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Judaism does indeed focus on the flesh.
It justifies them in their 'flesh'.......through genealogies and works.

Rom 9:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=9&v=32&t=KJV#32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=2&v=16&t=KJV#16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Why are they called 'children of the flesh'?

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Are they really able to 'live the life that God wants them to live' if they are without faith in the Messiah that was sent unto them?
How can you judge that Jews do not have "faith"?
Many Jews have great faith in the Lord.
There are also many - just like nominal Christians - who have little or no faith, but just follow the religion because they were raised in it.
However, in the book of Romans, we see that the Lord has not abandoned and will not abandon the Jewish people (especially read ch. 11).

I do not believe that the Jews who love the Lord with all of their heart are "saved", but I do believe that it is part of God's plan that their eyes have been purposely blinded to Him and that He does and will honor their love for Him.

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has fallen away, for not all who are out of Israel are Israel.

I think this refers to the Jews who are unbelievers and I think there are also many who call themselves Christians who are unbelievers as well.
It is a matter of the heart, not necessarily which religion one follows.

I am not saying that Jews who follow the law are saved, but that I think those Jews who follow the law and who love the Lord are pleasing the Lord in some way.

From what I've heard, some different categories within Judaism overlap.

For example, I've heard that the categories of Hasidic and Mitnagedic both overlap with the category of Orthodox.

It is a matter of the heart, not necessarily which religion one follows.
I am not saying that Jews who follow the law are saved, but that I think those Jews who follow the law and who love the Lord are pleasing the Lord in some way.


I agree with you Toymom,very good point.

Dan.

I am not saying that Jews who follow the law are saved, but that I think those Jews who follow the law and who love the Lord are pleasing the Lord in some way.


That's a nice thing to say Toymom, but it isn't scripturally sound from a NT perspective. Anyone that willfully rejects Jesus Christ can't be pleasing to the Lord. We shouldn't paint them in an less-dangerous picture, by choosing to reject Christ. Their only hope to be pleasing to the Lord and to truly love the Lord, is to repent and turn to follow Christ by faith in Him.

According to the Scriptures...

Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

I Thessalonians 2:14 "the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God"

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."



You say those who reject Jesus love the Lord; but Scripture tells us they are deceived, and do not love the Lord.

Speaking with the Jews of His day who didn't believe Him, Jesus said:

John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

I John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments"

I Thessalonians 4:1 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God"

I John 3:22 "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ"

II John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."


The Jews of our day have the same welcome door of salvation they may open and enter in to Sup with the Lord; and partake of His Goodness and Mercy; they just have to repent and turn to the Living Water's that pour out of the crimson flow of Calvary. It's no different today, than in the 1st century A.D. when many thousands and great multitudes of Jews repented, turned to Christ, and were the foundational group of humans that took the Gospel out into all the ends of the Earth!!

That's a nice thing to say Toymom, but it isn't scripturally sound from a NT perspective.
According to the scriptures:

11:1I say then, Has God cast away His people? Absolutely not! For I also am an Israelite, out of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:7 What then? That which Israel is seeking after, this it has not obtained, but the chosen have obtained it, and the rest have been hardened;
8 As it is written, "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, until this very day.''

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;

11:28 According to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but according to the selection they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

God deliberately has blinded many of the Jewish people to Christ so that salvation could come to all of the gentiles.
One day, I think it will be when He returns, He will open their eyes.
In the meantime, those Jews who love Him with all of their heart and follow His law the best that they can are pleasing to Him, I believe.

From what I've heard, some different categories within Judaism overlap.

For example, I've heard that the categories of Hasidic and Mitnagedic both overlap with the category of Orthodox.
That is true. The groups differ only in custom, not theology or approach to the law.

That's a nice thing to say Toymom, but it isn't scripturally sound from a NT perspective.
It could be a NT perspective. Jesus told a parable (patching an old wine skin with new cloth - Lk.5) in response to why His disciples weren't following the examples of the students of the Pharisees and John the baptizer. The Lords answer seems to show that there was (and possibly still is) a place for the "old". His concern was preservation (Lk.5:38).
I think good examples of Jews who loved God under the OT system are the parents of John the baptizer. Lk.1:6 declares them blameless.

Hebrews 4:2 tells us that Gods word was preached to the Israelites under Moses. Their condemnation appears to be the result of not having faith in what Moses taught (He.4:1).


....but that I think those Jews who follow the law and who love the Lord are pleasing the Lord in some way.
I agree and they may well be saved, but that is not for us to decide, for it is God who will determine the hearts of all of us.

It could be a NT perspective. Jesus told a parable (patching an old wine skin with new cloth - Lk.5) in response to why His disciples weren't following the examples of the students of the Pharisees and John the baptizer. The Lords answer seems to show that there was (and possibly still is) a place for the "old". His concern was preservation (Lk.5:38).
I think good examples of Jews who loved God under the OT system are the parents of John the baptizer. Lk.1:6 declares them blameless.

Hebrews 4:2 tells us that Gods word was preached to the Israelites under Moses. Their condemnation appears to be the result of not having faith in what Moses taught (He.4:1).


I agree and they may well be saved, but that is not for us to decide, for it is God who will determine the hearts of all of us.


Herein lies their condemnation.......

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Herein lies their condemnation.......

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Those verses in John are not about the Jews, but about the world.

John 15:18 If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me before you.

And while there are Jews who are part of the world, there are those who call themselves Christians who are also part of the world as well.

As I pointed out in the verses in Romans ch. 11, the Lord deliberately blinded the eyes of the Jews - at least of some of them - to Jesus in order that the gospel might be shared with all of the gentiles.

Those verses in John are not about the Jews, but about the world.



It is speaking of Jews.....look again:

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.





In the meantime, those Jews who love Him with all of their heart and follow His law the best that they can are pleasing to Him, I believe.


Can you please show a verse to support this?



Hbr 11:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=11&v=6&t=KJV#6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Hbr 11:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=11&v=6&t=KJV#6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



All it says here is without faith. It does not say that one must believe in Jesus to have faith. Those of us who are Christians have an understanding that Jesus Himself is our faith and He is the substantiation of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen, but that was not yet understood by the Jews. In verse 6 it says that he who comes forward to God must believe that He is. Just as God told Moses that He was the I Am. It refers to belief in God. If the intent was to say He who comes forward to God must believe that God is Jesus, then it would have said so and it did not. That is a Christian understanding, but is not one that was being stated as necessary by Paul (or whoever the author of Hebrews was) as the intent of that verse.

You have apparantly created a definition of faith that means that one must believe in Jesus to believe in God.
That was NOT the definition of faith that was understood in the Old Testament obviously, nor would it have been a definition of faith that would have been understood by the Jews even at the time that Hebrews was written.

It refered to faith in God.

As I have stated before - there were and still are people who are Jews who have no faith or belief in God at all.
There are also people in the various Christian religions who have no faith at all. Those are the people to whom those verses refer.

There were Jews in the Biblical times and are those now who believe in God and love Him with all of their heart, soul and might just as the Bible says to do. And the Bible says that is the greatest commandment.

Paul told the Jews repeatedly that just keeping the law alone was not what God wanted because at that time, and also now, there were - and are - Jews who simply kept the law because that is what you are supposed to do and they felt that was enough but they had no care or concern for God. There are Christians today who similarly think they should do stuff to please God, but it is not the stuff they do that pleases Him, but our love for Him that He wants.

I have stated before that I do not believe that Jews who love the Lord but do not know Him as Christ are saved, but I do believe that He is pleased with their love for Him.

Hi pinky.

Herein lies their condemnation.......

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
I don't think all Jews hate Jesus. I think they might not understand Him or have no desire to learn about Him, but is that the same as hate?
I've heard that Jews suffered persecution at the hands of so called christians throughout history and that may be reason why they reject the Messiah. Will God blame such Jews?

All it says here is without faith. It does not say that one must believe in Jesus to have faith. ..........


Oh my.

The entire New Testament speaks to the fact that one must believe in Jesus to have faith!

Can you show a verse that says otherwise??

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.


1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



If the intent was to say He who comes forward to God must believe that God is Jesus, then it would have said so and it did not.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.




That is a Christian understanding,

Yes.
You prefer a non-Christian understanding???



but is not one that was being stated as necessary by Paul (or whoever the author of Hebrews was) as the intent of that verse.

If you read Hebrews 11 carefully, you will see that it is indeed speaking of their faith in the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ.


Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Hbr 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.






It refered to faith in God.

Jesus IS GOD!!

Try as you might, you cannot seperate them.

Hebrews 11 shows that their faith in God is demonstrated by their believing God.

Believing God means believing in His work of Salvation.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


So...................how can a person have faith in God if they don't believe Him and make Him a liar?


I have stated before that I do not believe that Jews who love the Lord but do not know Him as Christ are saved, but I do believe that He is pleased with their love for Him.

As I said before, can you show a verse to support this opinion?


In the Truth of Jesus Christ our Saviour,
pinky

All it says here is without faith. It does not say that one must believe in Jesus to have faith. .


Do you hold the same sentiment for other religions???

Do you hold the same sentiment for other religions???
No. The original post is about what the Jews believe. Jesus was a Jew - remember?

The entire New Testament speaks to the fact that one must believe in Jesus to have faith!

The OP is about the Jewish religion and what Jews believe - not about the Christian religion or what the New Testament says.
Jesus Himself was a Jew.
The Christian religion is supposedly built upon the Old Testament and the revelation of the Lord in it.

Moses did not have faith in Jesus - He had faith in God.
Although Christians now know that Jesus is God, that was not known to Moses or to the Jews before Jesus's time.

And apparantly according to Romans ch. 11, God deliberately blinded the eyes of some of the Jews to that fact so that the gospel could be preached to the gentiles. Also according to Romans ch. 11, the Lord has not abandoned the Jews.

Here are some verses from the Bible which tell us that God is pleased with the Jews who love Him with all of their hearts:

Deuteronomy ch. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

also:

Mk 12:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mk 12:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.



Those are the verses that support my opinion that the Lord is pleased with the Jews who love Him with all of their hearts. In the New Testament, Jesus and Paul address the fact that many Jews were observing the law without loving the Lord. They were merely doing the outward actions without having a heart for the Lord.

Once again, I am not saying that the Jews who love the Lord yet do not know Him as Jesus are saved.

However, they do not necessarily hate Jesus.
Many of them merely consider that Jesus was a rabbi that some people thought was God. They think the Christians are praying to a dead man. And the Christians who pray to "Saints" are praying to dead people so I can see the confusion there. But that is a bit off topic.

I was Jewish for the first 27 years of my life.
I never hated Jesus.
I just did not know who He was.
I thought that Christians prayed to three gods - a father, son and ghost and I had always been taught there was only one God therefore I thought that Christians were polytheistic. But I did not hate Jesus.

The OP is about the Jewish religion and what Jews believe - not about the Christian religion or what the New Testament says.


Well Toymom, you are the one to claim that a person can deny Christ but still 'have faith in God' and that God takes pleasure in them.

Is the NT irrelevant on the subject??




Jhn 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.






Moses did not have faith in Jesus - He had faith in God.
Although Christians now know that Jesus is God, that was not known to Moses or to the Jews before Jesus's time.

Jhn 5:46 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=5&v=46&t=KJV#46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.




Here are some verses from the Bible which tell us that God is pleased with the Jews who love Him with all of their hearts:

To love God with all your heart is to love JESUS.

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.



How can a person love God with 'all their heart' if they make Him a liar?

1Jo 5:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=5&v=10&t=KJV#10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

As for Jews being anti-Christian, I can see why they would be anti-Roman Catholic.

Well, I'm not Roman Catholic. I don't think Roman Catholicism represents what I believe in.

I'm not saying this out of any hostility towards Roman Catholics themselves.

As for Jews being anti-Christian, I can see why they would be anti-Roman Catholic.

Judaism is not "anti" anything. Judaism is pro-Judaism. Some poeple seem to think that Judaism's sole raison d'être is to debunk Christianity.

Judaism is not "anti" anything. Judaism is pro-Judaism. Some poeple seem to think that Judaism's sole raison d'être is to debunk Christianity.

I wasn't referring to Judaism. I was referring to Jews.

If I was Jewish, I don't think I'd be converting to Roman Catholicism any time soon.

Jews don't remain Jewish because some other religion treated us badly. We remain Jewish because we know we are right.

... come to think of it, I don't think I'll be converting to Roman Catholicism, even though I'm not Jewish.

Hahahaha yes, they do not seem to be well like in these parts.:P