PDA

View Full Version : Gen. 37:10 - who was Joseph's mother?



Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 02:23 AM
Joseph has a dream at seventeen that the sun, moon, and stars bow down to him, and Jacob translates the dream in this way: "Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" The weird thing is that Rachel, Joseph's mother, was dead (35:16-20). So who was Jacob referring to when he said, "your mother"? How could Rachel bow down before Joseph?

watchinginawe
Aug 28th 2009, 02:53 AM
Joseph has a dream at seventeen that the sun, moon, and stars bow down to him, and Jacob translates the dream in this way: "Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" The weird thing is that Rachel, Joseph's mother, was dead (35:16-20). So who was Jacob referring to when he said, "your mother"? How could Rachel bow down before Joseph?Interesting post.

Reading the commentators, the opinion that strikes me as most plausible is that Jacob was referring to Rachel in his comment to disarm the matter in front of his other sons. By referring to Rachel as the object of Joseph's dream it immediately invalidated it since she was dead.

Since it was Jacob who interpreted the dream it doesn't invalidate anything of Joseph's dream. Indeed, for the dream to be true it could simply be the mate of Jacob and not the mother of Joseph that bow before him.

God Bless!

crossnote
Aug 28th 2009, 03:54 AM
Perhaps, but Jacob still seemed to give it creedence.

And his brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind.
(Gen 37:11)


11 Joseph's brothers envied him and were jealous of him, but his father observed the saying and pondered over it.
AMP (Gen 37:11)

Very interesting observation and I notice many commentators gloss over the question.

nzyr
Aug 28th 2009, 05:23 AM
So who was Jacob referring to when he said, "your mother"? How could Rachel bow down before Joseph?
Joseph didn't say he dreamed his mother would pay obeisance to him. Jacob did. It sounds like Jacob was trying to say the dream wouldn't come true because it was impossible. Jacob did have one more wife and two more concubines though. Of course the dream did come true a little later in Egypt.

Denny606
Aug 28th 2009, 05:39 AM
Whether or not Rachel was dead does not change the fact that she was Joseph's mother.Are you asking why Jacob gave this interpretation?I am looking at this in a literal sense,not meaning any disrespect to the OP,Just curious.

TEITZY
Aug 28th 2009, 06:59 AM
Well I don't believe Jacob physically bowed down before Joseph either.

I think both dreams emphasize the exalted position of Joseph over all his family members, including his mother. Another thought is that Rachel was represented by Benjamin. Genesis 43:29 makes specific mention of the fact that Benjamin is "his [Joseph's] mother's son".

Cheers
Leigh

Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 01:55 PM
Whether or not Rachel was dead does not change the fact that she was Joseph's mother.Are you asking why Jacob gave this interpretation?I am looking at this in a literal sense,not meaning any disrespect to the OP,Just curious.

There were a few things I was considering. I thought at first that perhaps Leah had, in a sense, adopted Joseph and Benjamin, but I dismissed that pretty quickly. Then I thought that I had only assumed that Rachel had died in child-birth, and that perhaps she had died later, when Benjamin was older, but again I dismissed this rather fast.

The last thing that I explored was that Jacob had mis-translated the dream. In all the dreams within the Joseph narrative, numbers given indicate days or years. So I wondered if eleven or thirteen (when counting the sun and moon) could lead to a significant time in Joseph's life. I was surprised to find that it was eleven years later that he interpreted the cup-bearer and baker's dreams, and thirteen years later that he interpreted Pharaoh's dream (at which time he became second only to Pharaoh in all the land of Egypt). I'm also wondering if "the" eleven stars was a prominent constellation in the Middle East.

But the suggestion that Jacob dismissed Joseph's dream as impossible given Rachel's death seems the most plausible.

nzyr
Aug 28th 2009, 02:34 PM
I'm also wondering if "the" eleven stars was a prominent constellation in the Middle East.

I believe the eleven stars were Joseph's brothers.

And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance. -Genesis 43:28

BroRog
Aug 28th 2009, 03:41 PM
There were a few things I was considering. I thought at first that perhaps Leah had, in a sense, adopted Joseph and Benjamin, but I dismissed that pretty quickly. Then I thought that I had only assumed that Rachel had died in child-birth, and that perhaps she had died later, when Benjamin was older, but again I dismissed this rather fast.

The last thing that I explored was that Jacob had mis-translated the dream. In all the dreams within the Joseph narrative, numbers given indicate days or years. So I wondered if eleven or thirteen (when counting the sun and moon) could lead to a significant time in Joseph's life. I was surprised to find that it was eleven years later that he interpreted the cup-bearer and baker's dreams, and thirteen years later that he interpreted Pharaoh's dream (at which time he became second only to Pharaoh in all the land of Egypt). I'm also wondering if "the" eleven stars was a prominent constellation in the Middle East.

But the suggestion that Jacob dismissed Joseph's dream as impossible given Rachel's death seems the most plausible.

Why did you dismiss the idea that Jacob was speaking about Leah? To this day I refer to my step-mother as "mom".

Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 03:48 PM
For similar reasons that teitzy made is all.

Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 04:23 PM
Because Joseph says "the" eleven stars, I'm still trying to figure out if there was a prominent constellation in Canaan and Egypt's skies, one that perhaps symbolized all of mankind, or brothers, or the like. Does anyone have any understanding about this? I see that Jacob translated the stars to be his other sons, but I wondered if there was a double meaning. Thanks.

Bing
Aug 28th 2009, 05:49 PM
You're looking at this as an "eleven stars" (and all mankind) bowing to Joseph (as a type of Jesus), aren't you?

I don't think you need to go looking up Ancient Egyptian astrology and astronomy to make that case. If the eleven stars were Joseph's brothers (and the tribes of Israel), then we already have a great prototype for all Israel bowing down to One who came from their midst, the messiah Jesus. More, if one accepts that the gentiles grafted into Israel as part of the one new man are also those who (though once rejecting Joseph) end up bowing down to the one who saved them.

BroRog
Aug 28th 2009, 06:01 PM
Because Joseph says "the" eleven stars, I'm still trying to figure out if there was a prominent constellation in Canaan and Egypt's skies, one that perhaps symbolized all of mankind, or brothers, or the like. Does anyone have any understanding about this? I see that Jacob translated the stars to be his other sons, but I wondered if there was a double meaning. Thanks.

A few years ago I found a web site that spoke about signs in the heavens. I believe the discussion there concerned itself with Revelation 12 and the constellations Draco (dragon) and Virgo (virgin). I didn't give much credence to it, though it was interesting. You might do a Google search.

Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 07:08 PM
You're looking at this as an "eleven stars" (and all mankind) bowing to Joseph (as a type of Jesus), aren't you?

Actually, no, and if anything I'm trying to stay as far away from doing that (in this stage of reading anyway) as possible. What I had in mind was 41:43, "And [Pharaoh] had [Joseph] ride in the second chariot which he had, and they cried out before him, 'Bow the knee!' So he set him over all the land of Egypt." That, and seven years later in 41:57, which says, "So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain, because the famine was severe in all lands."

Nihil Obstat
Aug 28th 2009, 07:23 PM
Well, I just read 42:9, which says that "Joseph remembered the dreams which he had dreamed about [his brothers]", so that probably answers that! Still, that Jacob considered the moon (I'm guessing) to be Rachel is weird.

crossnote
Aug 29th 2009, 04:38 AM
But the suggestion that Jacob dismissed Joseph's dream as impossible given Rachel's death seems the most plausible.

But as I gave this verse in two versions, it makes it much less plausible.

And his brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind.
(Gen 37:11)


11 Joseph's brothers envied him and were jealous of him, but his father observed the saying and pondered over it.
AMP (Gen 37:11)

I think you should re-ponder Bing's explanation, putting Christ in the center of the tough passages often solves many difficulties.

BadDog
Aug 30th 2009, 07:55 PM
Joseph has a dream at seventeen that the sun, moon, and stars bow down to him, and Jacob translates the dream in this way: "Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" The weird thing is that Rachel, Joseph's mother, was dead (35:16-20). So who was Jacob referring to when he said, "your mother"? How could Rachel bow down before Joseph?I go with what watchinginawe said in post #2. It was probably Leah. (Rachel was not still alive, probably. She died giving birth to Benjamin.)

Benjamin was born in Genesis 35, while we read about the dreams in Genesis 37. But the text is not necessarily chronological, since the Spirit might have wanted to make certain themes clear, etc.. But it is a bit more likely that Joseph's mother (Rachel) was dead when he told the dream about the sun, moon and stars to his family. When Jacob referred to Joseph's dad and mom he was likely referring to Leah (Rachel's older sister), as she would have had certain maternal responsibilities and authorities over Joseph.

Heh, heh... Joseph showed real sensitivity, eh? Hey, Dad, Mom, bros... whatcha think this dream could mean? Hmmm :dunno:

BD

Your Advert here


Hosted by Webnet77