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PeterJ
Jun 16th 2004, 10:40 PM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?

Yours Peter

Dan Moran
Jun 16th 2004, 11:03 PM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?

Yours Peter

Satan is just as much spirit as the Lord God is Holy Spirit. There is no form or calmliness to them. Spirit can not be picked up on by the five senses. Spirit can only be felt through another spirit. The holy spirit within us is capable of communicating with the Holy Spirit because our spirit bears witness to His Spirit.

The devil, the adversary, is a trickster; he can transform himself into anything and more than likely something that would scare the bejesus out of you anyway. He is spirit with no form.

PeterJ
Jun 16th 2004, 11:26 PM
I think i used form as a wrong word,i mean like image what he looks like than a form,he always was a spirit.

Peter

kranich
Jun 16th 2004, 11:30 PM
No one knows for I have heard it falsey attributed to some early church fathers. To me, it is logical that it is an adaptation of the Greek god Pan.

notmine
Jun 16th 2004, 11:41 PM
I agree God is Holy Spirit as well as Father and Son. Thus, I think it's wrong to say God is a mere spirit. I mean Jesus had a physical body and he ascended into heaven in a physical form, right? Correct me if I am wrong. Moreover, I thought Satan was a fallen angel and do angels not have a physical body? Just wonderin'. Besides, I don't think he "transforms" into an angel of light, because he already was an angel of light in the first place. If I am wrong, I am sry.

Follower
Jun 16th 2004, 11:44 PM
PeterJ,


Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?During the reformation Martin Luther was fond of making woodcuts which could then be reproduced and distributed throughout Europe. I believe this is the time when the red-suited "devil" came into fashion. Luther used it as a way to mock Satan, portraying him as a fool. The image took hold, but the fool part of it has been lost. If I recall correctly the imagery also mocked the religion Luther protested against.

With Jesus' love,

Follower (http://www.parkbc.org/follower)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" – Has God made His home with you?

kranich
Jun 17th 2004, 12:47 AM
Many of Faust's descriptions of the devil match the bearded, horned creature sans red suit. This was 15th century.

PeterJ
Jun 17th 2004, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=Follower]PeterJ,

During the reformation Martin Luther was fond of making woodcuts which could then be reproduced and distributed throughout Europe. I believe this is the time when the red-suited "devil" came into fashion. Luther used it as a way to mock Satan, portraying him as a fool. The image took hold, but the fool part of it has been lost. If I recall correctly the imagery also mocked the religion Luther protested against.
QUOTE]


Martin Luther ?

PeterJ
Jun 17th 2004, 11:38 PM
Many of Faust's descriptions of the devil match the bearded, horned creature sans red suit. This was 15th century.

Who was he?

A lot of unsaved people in the world think satan is a red suit thing.

Why does the world want people to think that?

Peter

Dan Moran
Jun 18th 2004, 12:17 AM
I agree God is Holy Spirit as well as Father and Son. Thus, I think it's wrong to say God is a mere spirit. I mean Jesus had a physical body and he ascended into heaven in a physical form, right? Correct me if I am wrong. Moreover, I thought Satan was a fallen angel and do angels not have a physical body? Just wonderin'. Besides, I don't think he "transforms" into an angel of light, because he already was an angel of light in the first place. If I am wrong, I am sry.

John 4:24

God is a spirit. And they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

If it's wrong to call to say God is a mere spirit, I'd consider taking that up with Him.

Luke 24:39

Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me, and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.

John 1:18

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

I John 4:12

No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God (Holy Spirit), abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

I Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,...

James 1:13

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted of God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil nor does He tempt anyone.

Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL in all things. Why? Because Adam was tempted in ALL things. Jesus Christ had to be a direct parallel with the Adam, because God created man to worship God and we sinned turning allegiance over to the devil, the adversary. It took an act of God, a miracle, a mystery to send his Son, a perfect man to undo everything that Adam screwed up in order to legally redeem mankind. This is why Jesus Christ IS a Man. God, who has never been seen is Holy Spirit. You can not see, hear, smell, taste or touch Holy Spirit. You simply can NOT pick up on Holy Spirit via the five senses, its impossible.

God IS Holy Spirit.

Follower
Jun 18th 2004, 04:28 AM
Dan Moran,


... Jesus Christ was tempted in ALL in all things. Why? Because Adam was tempted in ALL things. Jesus Christ had to be a direct parallel with the Adam, because God created man to worship God and we sinned turning allegiance over to the devil, the adversary. It took an act of God, a miracle, a mystery to send his Son, a perfect man to undo everything that Adam screwed up in order to legally redeem mankind. This is why Jesus Christ IS a Man. God, who has never been seen is Holy Spirit. You can not see, hear, smell, taste or touch Holy Spirit. You simply can NOT pick up on Holy Spirit via the five senses, its impossible.Are you suggesting that Jesus is not God?

With Jesus' love,

Follower (http://www.parkbc.org/follower)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" – Has God made His home with you?

Semi-tortured
Dec 7th 2007, 11:04 PM
Who was he?

A lot of unsaved people in the world think satan is a red suit thing.

Why does the world want people to think that?

Peter

The world doesn't, but Satan does. If he is this little red thing with horns and a tail and a pitchfork, it becomes sort of a symbol. Overtime that symbol becomes ridiculous and people stop believing he even exists. All thes other mythologies, religions, etc are being created by Satan so you can't pick the truth out.

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Keiser Soze in the Usual Suspects

A little red thing with a pitchfork is pretty unbelievable.

Nihil Obstat
Dec 8th 2007, 04:17 AM
The Bible gives several descriptions of Satan's actual appearance. Just because he is spirit doesn't mean he can't be seen or heard or felt, or that his very presence can't be tasted or smelled. Satan is not omnipresent, but can only be in one place at a time. The way he has been depicted has changed throughout history, and it varies from culture to culture. I've heard that one of the forms he's been described as was in a green cloak, lurking in the forests. But the Bible tells us what his actual appearance is, so we ought to go with that, and take it as literal. Probably Eze. 28:11-19 is the clearest picture of Satan, and we are told that he used to be a worshiper of God, a covering cherub over God's mercy seat, and is shown to be wearing a high priest's garments. And understanding that the Garden of Eden was the earth's first temple makes things very interesting...

Satan in a red suit with a pitchfork is just the image that Americans have largely settled on, and if anything it doesn't so much tell you what Satan wants Americans to think about him, but rather about what Americans understand him to be like. This is similar to many Americans' image of Jesus - a white guy with blue eyes and a Grateful Dead tie-dyed shirt under His robe. All that tells me is that not many have the relationship with Jesus that He died for in order for us all to have. This is why we need to grow in intimacy with Jesus and testify to all of who He really is and what He is really like. We can know Him - too many act as if we can't know Him, and if anything, that's what Satan wants us to believe.

- Lk.11

Steven3
Dec 8th 2007, 07:03 AM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?

Yours Peter

Hi Peter :)
To give you an alternative view: Satan is only a story, he doesn't really exist.

~ The story originated in the time of the return from Babylon when the prophet Zechariah told a story about how a "Satan" opposed an earlier "Jesus" (the Greek spelling of Jeshua, the priest)

~ In reality that story is about how Jeshua and the priests were corrupted by financial and mixed-marriage ties to Samaritans and Arabs opposing the rebuilding of the temple. The temptation to the real Jeshua wasn't from a fallen angel it was from those such as the Samaritan businessman whose daughter had married his grandson.

~ Then when Jesus came he used this OT story to tell a new story to his disciples about how he had prepared for 40 days to face his temptations from the Jewish people (to make bread, drive out the Romans, and appear on the temple) when his ministry started.

~ Then Paul picked up Jesus' story as a personification of the "old man" or "flesh" in each of us.

~ Finally John wrapped Christ's Satan and the Genesis snake together in Revelation and talked about how Christ had/would destroy both.

So there's your answer. Satan is only a story. He doesn't exist, except in each of us. How does he look? Well look in the mirror :rolleyes:
God bless
Steven

Duane Morse
Dec 8th 2007, 07:17 AM
1ch 21:1 And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Whence comest thou? Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So SATAN went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto SATAN, From whence comest thou? And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2:4 And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went SATAN forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Ps 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand.
Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto SATAN, The LORD rebuke thee, O SATAN; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, SATAN: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mt 12:26 And if SATAN cast out SATAN, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mr 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of SATAN; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mr 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can SATAN cast out SATAN?
Mr 3:26 And if SATAN rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, SATAN cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mr 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, SATAN: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, SATAN: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld SATAN as lightning fall from heaven.
Lu 11:18 If SATAN also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom SATAN hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
Lu 22:3 Then entered SATAN into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Joh 13:27 And after the sop SATAN entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath SATAN filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of SATAN unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise SATAN under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that SATAN tempt you not for your incontinency.
2co 2:11 Lest SATAN should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
2co 11:14 And no marvel; for SATAN himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
1th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but SATAN hindered us.
2th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders,
1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto SATAN, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
1ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after SATAN.
Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of SATAN.
Re 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where SATAN's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where SATAN dwelleth.
Re 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of SATAN, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of SATAN, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and SATAN, and bound him a thousand years,
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, SATAN shall be loosed out of his prison,



Hmmm...

Pretty substantial references to an entity that does not really exist.


I agree that he can exist in each of us, and even as any of us.
That does not discount Satan as a real entity in his own right.

Steven3
Dec 8th 2007, 07:46 AM
Hi Duane :)
1ch 21:1 And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Whence comest thou? Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So SATAN went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto SATAN, From whence comest thou? And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Job 2:4 And SATAN answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto SATAN, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went SATAN forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Ps 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto SATAN, The LORD rebuke thee, O SATAN; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, SATAN: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mt 12:26 And if SATAN cast out SATAN, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mr 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of SATAN; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Mr 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can SATAN cast out SATAN?

Mr 3:26 And if SATAN rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

Mr 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, SATAN cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mr 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, SATAN: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, SATAN: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld SATAN as lightning fall from heaven.

Lu 11:18 If SATAN also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom SATAN hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

Lu 22:3 Then entered SATAN into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Joh 13:27 And after the sop SATAN entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath SATAN filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of SATAN unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise SATAN under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

1co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto SATAN for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that SATAN tempt you not for your incontinency.

2co 2:11 Lest SATAN should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

2co 11:14 And no marvel; for SATAN himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

1th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but SATAN hindered us.

2th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of SATAN with all power and signs and lying wonders,

1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto SATAN, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after SATAN.

Re 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of SATAN.
Re 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where SATAN's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where SATAN dwelleth.
Re 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of SATAN, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Re 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of SATAN, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and SATAN, and bound him a thousand years,
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, SATAN shall be loosed out of his prison,



Hmmm...

Pretty substantial references to an entity that does not really exist.


I agree that he can exist in each of us, and even as any of us.
That does not discount Satan as a real entity in his own right.I assume the two references to Peter were a mispaste ;)


Looking at the above well, yes it does discount Satan as a real entity in his own right, because there's not a single reference to anyone having ever seen this creature.

Satan doesn't exist. If he really existed the Jews would have been warned about him prior to 1Ch21:1 (which 2Sam24:1 says was God btw)
God bless
Steven

Duane Morse
Dec 8th 2007, 07:54 AM
So then, there are typo's in the Bible I guess. Jesus didn't really mean what He said, or the authors got it wrong?

Satan being an individual physical entity - maybe not.
Satan being an individual spiritual entity - I personally would think so.

Steven3
Dec 8th 2007, 07:58 AM
So then, there are typo's in the Bible I guess. Jesus didn't really mean what He said, or the authors got it wrong?I meant mispaste. I think you'll agree, Christ calling Peter Satan isn't great proof that fallen angels exist is it? ;)


Satan being an individual physical entity - maybe not.
Satan being an individual spiritual entity - I personally would think so.He doesn't exist as either if he's only a story.

Isaac-Saxon
Dec 8th 2007, 08:18 AM
Christ calling Peter Satan was not a example of a fallen angel it was a example of how Satan can work through the hands or mind of men. We should all be careful that our agenda does not supersede or cover the Word of God.

Duane Morse
Dec 8th 2007, 08:23 AM
He doesn't exist as either if he's only a story.
But, Satan exists as both, if not 'just' a story.

Soj
Dec 8th 2007, 09:43 PM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

This serpent does not look like a serpent when he appears. To the contrary, he appears as "an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:12-14). Since every angel in the Bible appears as a man, what Eve deals with is a nice, shining gentleman!

This serpent is not a "snake", and when his animal counterpart is cursed to appear as a snake, it is cursed above all "cattle". Why "cattle"?

1. Satan was a Cherub, and a Cherub is defined as a calf or Ox (Eze 1,10).
2. This Cherub was the fifth Cherub, representing the reptile class (Rev 4, Eze 28).
3. As a split-foot beast (Rev 4:7, Eze 1:7) with two horns, he is represented in Egypt by a Golden calf with the sun disk between his horns (Exodus 32) and hence is classified with "cattle."
4. Thus Baal worshippers recognize the Ox and Serpent as sacred (Hosea 13:2; 1 Kings 17-19).

The "beast" of Genesis 3:1 is a reference to Revelation 4:7. Moses writing, calls him a "Serpent" which is the correct term according to Revelation 12:9.

Steven3
Dec 9th 2007, 03:58 AM
Hi Isaac :)
Christ calling Peter Satan was not a example of a fallen angel it was a example of how Satan can work through the hands or mind of men. We should all be careful that our agenda does not supersede or cover the Word of God.I just thought it was an odd paste to prove a fallen angel, that's all. My agenda, as I've said, is pretty simple. I'm a strict monotheist, if God is "Almighty", then (as Is45:7 says), he makes darkness as well as light.

Hi Duane
When you say "spiritual and physical" do you mean what Paul meant by "spiritual body and natural body" in 1Co15, a new pneumatikos body vs. the current psychikos body? Because there it would appear that to Paul the two are mutually exclusive, and neither is disembodied. This is relevant since Christ says the resurrected will not just be like him (Phip 3:21, Luke 23:49), but also like the angels.

Hi Soj NZ
I'm interested. Can you demonstrate a verbal connection between the Rev4 beast and any OT serpent verse?

God bless
Steven

losthorizon
Dec 9th 2007, 05:09 AM
Hi Duane :)I assume the two references to Peter were a mispaste ;)

Looking at the above well, yes it does discount Satan as a real entity in his own right, because there's not a single reference to anyone having ever seen this creature.

Satan doesn't exist. If he really existed the Jews would have been warned about him prior to 1Ch21:1 (which 2Sam24:1 says was God btw)

I think God has “seen this creature” called the Devil, aka Satan, don’t you?
Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah. And Jehovah said unto Satan, “From whence comest thou?” And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” (Job 2:1-2)
From the first book of the OT to the last book of the NT, the existence of Satan has been a reality – he is the literal "adversary" of God’s people per Holy Writ – right?


If he really existed the Jews would have been warned about him
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter5:8).

Allegra
Dec 9th 2007, 06:54 AM
Hi Duane :)I assume the two references to Peter were a mispaste ;)


Looking at the above well, yes it does discount Satan as a real entity in his own right, because there's not a single reference to anyone having ever seen this creature.

Satan doesn't exist. If he really existed the Jews would have been warned about him prior to 1Ch21:1 (which 2Sam24:1 says was God btw)
God bless
Steven
You are correct to say the devil doesn't exist, but for all the wrong reasons.
Satan was a fallen angel! The amount of scriptural support for this is insurmountable for you, so your hypothesis is incorrect.
Now, believe that Satan is a defeated foe. I believe this because I believe in inspiration. Paul told the first century Roman Christians that Satan would soon be crushed completely. If Satan is still around than we have a problem with inspiration which is a huge problem, because if the Bible is not inspired by God, it is of no value to us.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

One of the aspects of Christ's earthly mission was to destroy the devil. The Greek word for destroy is katargeo, which means: "to be entirely idle (useless), lit. or fig.:--abolish, cease, destroy, do away, make of no effect, bring to nought". Was Christ a failure in this mission? Some act like he was, they're still all worried about the devil. I think we want him to still be around so we have someone to blame for our sin.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

The Greek word for "destroy" is luo, which means: "to loosen, destroy, dissolve, put off". Christ is said to have destroyed the devil and his works. Don't you believe the Bible?

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

According to my Bible, Satan is a defeated foe. Jesus Christ has conquered the devil.

Luke 3:7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Satan is no longer the "god of the age". Jesus now has the keys of death and Hades (Rev 1:18). In Chap 12 the devil stands before the woman to devour her son when he is born, but he is caught up to heaven to the throne of God. There is a war in heaven which Satan loses and he is thrown down to the earth. He knows that his time is short so persecutes the woman and her seed. I believe this chapter sums up the great events of the generation of Jesus and his apostles. We see Satan's judgment in:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

What was Christ's purpose in becoming a man to die for our sins? Was it to restore man to the original garden paradise? Was His purpose to restore man in a perfect physical state free from disease and death? No! Christ's mission was a spiritual one that restores man to his relationship with God by making provision for sin and eternal death. So when we read in Rev 21 that the new heaven and new earth have come down and God dwells in the midst of it, we are reading about the completion of Christ's work for us. The real paradise of God has been restored. No sin is there; the blood of Christ covers it. No death is there; all things are made new. Those who are in Christ Jesus today have entered into this new relationship.

Some people are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is a present reality. They look at the physical and think that Satan still exists. But in reality, Satan has been crushed. Satan has no power in the New Covenant, he is in the Lake of fire.

Duane Morse
Dec 9th 2007, 11:18 AM
And yet, there is a certain lag time between Jesus' defeat of Satan and Satan's influence on us - it would seem.
Because, Jesus defeated Satan ~2,000 years ago, yet we still have evil in the world - and we, personally, still do evil on a daily basis (either in deed or thought - which no one can honestly deny).

Facts are facts.
If Evil is 'no more' in an absolute sense, then we could no longer commit evil deeds.


"Some people are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is a present reality. They look at the physical and think that Satan still exists. But in reality, Satan has been crushed. Satan has no power in the New Covenant, he is in the Lake of fire."


So then, are you (personally) sinless in your present state of being?
Do you have no temptations which you act upon?

Are you perfect in every way?

If you think not, you should reconsider your post.
If you think so, well, you should reconsider your view of the Truth.

1john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

napsnsnacks
Dec 9th 2007, 02:08 PM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?

Yours Peter

Satan was formerly Lucifer.

IS 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
IS 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
IS 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
IS 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
IS 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
IS 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Here Lucifer as described in appearance and identified with "king of Tyrus."

EZEK 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
EZEK 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
EZEK 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
EZEK 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
EZEK 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
EZEK 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
EZEK 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

I think Satan still looks the same except he doesn't have any glory about him.

Allegra
Dec 9th 2007, 02:43 PM
And yet, there is a certain lag time between Jesus' defeat of Satan and Satan's influence on us - it would seem.
Because, Jesus defeated Satan ~2,000 years ago, yet we still have evil in the world - and we, personally, still do evil on a daily basis (either in deed or thought - which no one can honestly deny).

Facts are facts.
If Evil is 'no more' in an absolute sense, then we could no longer commit evil deeds.


"Some people are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is a present reality. They look at the physical and think that Satan still exists. But in reality, Satan has been crushed. Satan has no power in the New Covenant, he is in the Lake of fire."


So then, are you (personally) sinless in your present state of being?
Do you have no temptations which you act upon?

Are you perfect in every way?

If you think not, you should reconsider your post.
If you think so, well, you should reconsider your view of the Truth.

1john 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Hi Duane Morse,
Excellent point DM, I agree with you. My post about satan was by no means all-inclusive.
Sin still exists. But it doesn't reign over Christians. Evil still exists in the hearts & minds of people.
The "ruler " of this world was cast out & his dominion taken away. It is own own lusts that affect us today (James 1:13).

ServantofTruth
Dec 9th 2007, 02:58 PM
I've said it before and i'll say it again - i thought being a christian meant believing the whole bible. I will not 'pick and choose.' I believe Job chapter 1. Where does the BIBLE say Job 1 is a story, if it doesn't then we can't. Because if we do, then why can't anyone else say a different Chapter is a story. Say Genesis chapt 3, or John's gospel chapt 1, or any of the accounts of the ressurection? Because different people are denying different chapters every day and writing books on why - which leads as many know to the author who said Jesus never lived and is a Jewish copy of older faiths and the Old Testament is just also copying previous stories.
So Satan exists because the bible says he does. It also says he is the ruler of this world. In the same way i can feel and see Christ' love in me and my brothers/ sisters, i see satan's firm grip on almost everything around me in this world. I see how he takes 'good' (in a worldly sense - not Godly sense) people and uses them for evil and then tosses them aside. You are either a follower of our Lord or a follower of Satan the devil. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND.
Lastly i know christians who don't believe in satan. One was an alcoholic for 40 years, till she prayed for protection and was delivered instantly and hasn't drunk since for 5 years? Others swear, divorce, leave their children. They deny satan and he just walks in and attacks and they have no idea whats happening. Anyone reading this in pain who has the position that satan doesn't exist - just try praying to our Lord and asking for protection from satan. You'll see the results!:pray:

PeterJ
Dec 9th 2007, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the vast input everyone :)

Why did Jesus say to peter satan? was satan talking though peter?

losthorizon
Dec 9th 2007, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the vast input everyone :)

Why did Jesus say to peter satan? was satan talking though peter?
Jesus told His disciples that the Son of Man "must be killed, and be raised up on the third day". Peter took Jesus aside to rebuke Him for speaking about His own death. At this rebuke, Jesus told Peter that he was acting the part of Satan in his attempt to hinder the redemption of mankind. There is no suggestion that Satan spoke or acted directly through Peter in this text.

Steven3
Dec 10th 2007, 01:38 AM
Hi Allegra
I'm not denying Heb 2:14 is a critical, perhaps the critical, verse. The problem is that the devil is virtually absent in the OT - fundamentally only 3 references, one where the parallel account in 1Sam24:1 says God, the second in a book of poetry, the third in a series of night visions which also include four horsemen and a woman in a basket, etc.

Yet in the NT Satan is everywhere. Simply judging from statistical incidence:


Total verses in the Old Testament = 23145
Specific (distinct) incidents of Satan = 3
Total verses in the New Testament = 7957
Specific (distinct) incidents of Satan/devil/etc. = 100

Obviously the actual verse numbers are higher, nearer 11 in OT, 110 in NT, because Job1 Matt4 repeat the word several times in the same incident, but the above counts 1 appearance as 1 appearance no matter how many times the name Satan/ title devil is used.


OT incidence = 1 incident occurs roughly every 7715 verses.
NT incidence = 1 incident occurs roughly every 0079 verses.

In other words the devil is 100x more common / more visible / more active (however we want to describe it) in the NT.

Any reading of the devil has to address this.
God bless
Steven

Brother Mark
Dec 10th 2007, 01:55 AM
In other words the devil is 100x more common / more visible / more active (however we want to describe it) in the NT.

Any reading of the devil has to address this.
God bless
Steven

That depends Steven. For instance, if we look at type and shadow, we can see the devil and his demons mentioned numerous times in the OT.

For instance...

Gen 3:1

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
NASU

If we look at this verse, we wonder, what is God saying. Is he saying that a snake is smarter than a lion? Or is he saying that Satan is smarter than a lion? Or is he saying something else? I think he is saying that Satan (the Serpent) is smarter than all the beasts of the field (demons).

Then we see that beasts of the field are mentioned over and over and over again in an evil way throughout the OT.

In the NT, Paul even references fighting with "beasts" at Ephesus. Yet, we see in Ephesus that he did not wrestle with flesh and blood, but with principalities.

1 Cor 15:31-32
32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me?
NASU

And we see what he fought at Ephesus through his letter to the Ephesians was not speaking of flesh and blood.

Eph 6:11-12
12 For our struggle is not againstflesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
NASU

So when he fought against the beasts, he was fighting spiritual forces of wickedness.

The metaphor is used quite frequently in the OT.

When Jesus said we would handle snakes, he was speaking of spreading the kingdom and defeating the spiritual forces of Satan.

Just a little food for thought.

Allegra
Dec 10th 2007, 03:15 AM
Hi Allegra
I'm not denying Heb 2:14 is a critical, perhaps the critical, verse. The problem is that the devil is virtually absent in the OT - fundamentally only 3 references, one where the parallel account in 1Sam24:1 says God, the second in a book of poetry, the third in a series of night visions which also include four horsemen and a woman in a basket, etc.

Yet in the NT Satan is everywhere. Simply judging from statistical incidence:



Obviously the actual verse numbers are higher, nearer 11 in OT, 110 in NT, because Job1 Matt4 repeat the word several times in the same incident, but the above counts 1 appearance as 1 appearance no matter how many times the name Satan/ title devil is used.



In other words the devil is 100x more common / more visible / more active (however we want to describe it) in the NT.

Any reading of the devil has to address this.
God bless
Steven
This is bc Satan influenced them to reject Christ.
I know your affinity for the O.T.
But Satan has been sinning since the beginning. In the garden of Eden we see Satan.
Look for satan, not just the devil in the O.T.
In the N.T., his time was short bc Christ came to destroy his works, so that's another reason we read more of satan in the N.T. But I would like to respond to the other poster now, as the hour is getting late.
Peace,
Allegra

Soj
Dec 10th 2007, 04:25 AM
Why did Jesus say to peter satan? was satan talking though peter?Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus is addressing the Devil IN Peter. Similar cases in scripture of Satan entering men are Ananias in Acts 5:3, Judas in John 13:27, and Saul in 1 Samuel 18:10.

Allegra
Dec 10th 2007, 04:40 AM
I've said it before and i'll say it again - i thought being a christian meant believing the whole bible. I will not 'pick and choose.' I believe Job chapter 1. Where does the BIBLE say Job 1 is a story, if it doesn't then we can't. Because if we do, then why can't anyone else say a different Chapter is a story. Say Genesis chapt 3, or John's gospel chapt 1, or any of the accounts of the ressurection? Because different people are denying different chapters every day and writing books on why - which leads as many know to the author who said Jesus never lived and is a Jewish copy of older faiths and the Old Testament is just also copying previous stories.
So Satan exists because the bible says he does. It also says he is the ruler of this world. In the same way i can feel and see Christ' love in me and my brothers/ sisters, i see satan's firm grip on almost everything around me in this world. I see how he takes 'good' (in a worldly sense - not Godly sense) people and uses them for evil and then tosses them aside. You are either a follower of our Lord or a follower of Satan the devil. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND.
Lastly i know christians who don't believe in satan. One was an alcoholic for 40 years, till she prayed for protection and was delivered instantly and hasn't drunk since for 5 years? Others swear, divorce, leave their children. They deny satan and he just walks in and attacks and they have no idea whats happening. Anyone reading this in pain who has the position that satan doesn't exist - just try praying to our Lord and asking for protection from satan. You'll see the results!:pray:
I'm not going to diminish the results of what someone believes. If that's what was needed (to consecrate the flesh) & put off the sinful nature, then praise the Lord.
Now as far as Satan still existing. I know he doesn't reign over Christians. That's another point to make. A born-again Christian is supposed to crucify the things of the sinful nature. As Paul says in Galatians. To live & walk by the Spirit. Ok, so we don't always do that. Sometimes our soul is in control.(mind, will, emotions) instead of our spirit. If one walks with the spirit in control, they are better able to: 1) hear God's voice (bc their own thoughts,emotions pressures of choices made, resentments, confusion, pain, etc- cloud God's voice) Proverbs 3:5-6 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=prov%203:5-6;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-16462a)] your paths.
2)To have spiritual protection.
Proverbs 29:25b But whoever trusts in the LORD shall be safe.
Psalm 31:23 3 Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints!
For the LORD preserves the faithful,
Ephesians 6:18 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
My aunt was cured from heroine before becoming a Christian. She became delivered instantly from cigarettes though, by the laying on of hands.
I came to the Lord at the same time I received an exorcism. So I have to say that satan is active in unbelievers.
But he cannot touch the spirit of a born-again Christian. The Holy Spirit resides there. This is why healing is dependent upon one's faith. Now if a Christian is truly born again & believes it's the power of the devil that is keeping them from consecrating or purifying themselves of a sinful or lustful habit- then that's fine.
I tend to look for God's strength for any worth while accomplishment, & blame myself (weaknesses or sinful nature) for any failures.
Getting back to Christ destroying satan.
Now, since Israel, & especially Jerusalem, was the center of destruction in the book of Revelation it could mean that there would no longer be the Jewish persecuting force & 2) It could mean that no longer would Satan have any power over God's people., he would be confined in his kingdom forever & ever.
In Daniel 7, the 11th horn (speaking of the Roman ruler of that time period & the destruction of Jerusalem) At that time of judgment, when the court sits- his dominion (satan's) will be destroyed forever.
further the evidence points to the destruction of Satan cast into his kingdom in the lake of fire , never to rise again.
John said, " Now judgment is upon the world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out," John 12:31
Paul informed the Roman Christians that "The God of Peace will soon crush Satan under your feet (during their lifetime)
John also saw in Rev. the Devil being bound, evidently the binding took place at the cross as per Gen 3:15.
Rev.20 shows Satan released for a short time & vs 8 informs us as to the purpose of his release.
Accordingly, Satan was used as God's instrument for the three & one-half year war with Israel, for in vs 10(of Rev20) informs us that the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, forever & forever.
Now the same John in John 16:11 informs us that Satan now has been judged. Satan had the power of death. So says Hebrews 2:14, and just before Paul's death, he says that death has been abolished. 2Tim 1:10

So ServantofTruth, what do u think about Satan's power now? Does he reign full throttle on the unbelievers, & the principalities are weak against the Christian? I think that Satan is a defeated foe for us, & we can rebuke him in Jesus' name at any stressful time if we think he may be the source of any troubles, but I think that's rare.
He may or may not exist for Christians, but he definitely doesn't reign over them.

losthorizon
Dec 10th 2007, 04:42 AM
Hi Allegra
I'm not denying Heb 2:14 is a critical, perhaps the critical, verse. The problem is that the devil is virtually absent in the OT - fundamentally only 3 references, one where the parallel account in 1Sam24:1 says God, the second in a book of poetry, the third in a series of night visions which also include four horsemen and a woman in a basket, etc.

The passage below is from the OT and it does not include poetry and there are no references to a woman in a basket. Exactly how many times does the Devil have to be mentioned in the OT for Satan to be considered a real live personal being who can converse with God - under your rules of theology?
Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah. And Jehovah said unto Satan, “From whence comest thou?” And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” (Job 2:1-2)

Steven3
Dec 11th 2007, 01:38 AM
Hi Allegra
This is bc Satan influenced them to reject Christ.
I know your affinity for the O.T.Well, it's no bad thing to have an affinity for the word of God is it, though I have a greater affinity with the N.T. one can still believe that the Gospel is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone". What that means is that while food-laws and circumcision have passed, the O.T. remains the word of God and tells us the truth about basic matters such as life and death, the omnipotence of God, and the origin of evil.


But Satan has been sinning since the beginning. In the garden of Eden we see Satan. I don't deny that the serpent turns into the devil in the N.T. But that's the point, that happens in the N.T. There are foreshadows of Satan in the O.T., just as there are foreshadows of Christ. But until Christ came you couldn't see Satan. Eph 5:13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, The above doesn't prove Satan is an allegory of course, that has to be done in the same way we establish what is allegory and what is history in any other book. And that is where we disagree.


So the real core question on this thread is this - does Christ literally come on a white horse?
God bless
Steven

Steven3
Dec 11th 2007, 01:42 AM
Hi Brother Mark
That depends Steven. For instance, if we look at type and shadow, we can see the devil and his demons mentioned numerous times in the OT.We'll find type/shadow/allusion in the NT too. If we include allusions the ratio would still remain the same, the devil is still 100x more present in the NT.

Why? What has the NT got that the OT hasn't?
Steven

Brother Mark
Dec 11th 2007, 03:23 PM
Hi Brother MarkWe'll find type/shadow/allusion in the NT too. If we include allusions the ratio would still remain the same, the devil is still 100x more present in the NT.

Why? What has the NT got that the OT hasn't?
Steven

Ever look up how many times beast of the field are alluded to in a bad way in the OT? Or all the other descriptions God uses for Satan like destroyer?

He's there and personified.

Doesn't matter about the number of times anyway. All it takes to make him real is two.

Steven3
Dec 12th 2007, 09:32 AM
Hi broMark :)
Ever look up how many times beast of the field are alluded to in a bad way in the OT?

But actually that would be a case in point. Most of the OT beast verses are of the Ps 49:12 "Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish" kind, where beast = beast. There are are "fiery serpents" (which Moses lifted up, the bronze serpent), there is even a clear Gen3:15 image in Ps91:13 "You will tread on the lion and the adder; the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot". (which occurs right after the verse the devil quotes in Matt4, but he stops short!), but generally in the OT the beast-serpent of Gen3 hasn't yet become the devil/Satan. That identification isn't made until the last book of the Bible. Even Paul doesn't make that identification in 2Co11:3 "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."


Or all the other descriptions God uses for Satan like destroyer?

He's there and personified.Destroyer in the OT generally means the angel of death in Egypt: "For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you". Same in 1Co1:10 "nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer" and Heb 11:28 "By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them." Did the devil kill the firstborn of Egypt?


Doesn't matter about the number of times anyway. All it takes to make him real is two.In one respect you're right. If Satan had appeared twice, or even once, in a historical context in the OT, then one would have to take him literally - unfortunately the only one in a purely historical narrative is Balaam's satan in Num22:22 "But God's anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the way as his adversary (Heb, as his satan). Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him."

That leaves us back where we were with the 100x more visible Satan in the NT. Why?
Steven

Brother Mark
Dec 12th 2007, 07:21 PM
Hi broMark :)

But actually that would be a case in point. Most of the OT beast verses are of the Ps 49:12 "Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish" kind, where beast = beast. There are are "fiery serpents" (which Moses lifted up, the bronze serpent), there is even a clear Gen3:15 image in Ps91:13 "You will tread on the lion and the adder; the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot". (which occurs right after the verse the devil quotes in Matt4, but he stops short!), but generally in the OT the beast-serpent of Gen3 hasn't yet become the devil/Satan. That identification isn't made until the last book of the Bible. Even Paul doesn't make that identification in 2Co11:3 "But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ."

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest they all referred to the enemy. But in places they can. Habbakuk comes to mind when referring to types and shadows. People compared to wolves would suggest to me people that were being used by "beasts of the field". Or, in Psalms 73 where Asaph had the mind of a beast, suggest that instead of thinking like Jesus, he was thinking like demons (see wisdom from below is earthly and demonic in James).



Destroyer in the OT generally means the angel of death in Egypt: "For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you". Same in 1Co1:10 "nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer" and Heb 11:28 "By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them." Did the devil kill the firstborn of Egypt?Interesting question. I might have to look into that. Satan often does work for God. Though he is evil in his intent. What Satan means for evil, God means for good. I will have to look into this one. Thanks for the heads up. It will be an interesting read. My initial response is "yes". But I reserve the right to change later if scripture were to prove otherwise. ;)


In one respect you're right. If Satan had appeared twice, or even once, in a historical context in the OT, then one would have to take him literally - unfortunately the only one in a purely historical narrative is Balaam's satan in Num22:22 "But God's anger was kindled because he went, and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the way as his adversary (Heb, as his satan). Now he was riding on the donkey, and his two servants were with him."

That leaves us back where we were with the 100x more visible Satan in the NT. Why?
StevenLot's of things are more visible in the NT than in the OT. Jesus is clearly laid out more in the new than the old. Yet, Abraham saw his day and rejoiced. Jesus preached and revealed himself in the OT starting with Moses and all the prophets to the 2 after the resurrection. But because we don't see Jesus literally named in the OT doesn't mean that he didn't exist as a person. Just like Jesus is clearly explained in the new, so is Satan.

napsnsnacks
Dec 13th 2007, 01:39 AM
The inevitable has happened.

The blasphemous point of view that the Devil works for God or God uses him as a tool, or weapon has entered the conversation.

I heretofore unsubscribe to this thread.

Steven3
Dec 13th 2007, 02:02 AM
Hi Bro Mark
But because we don't see Jesus literally named in the OT doesn't mean that he didn't exist as a person. Just like Jesus is clearly explained in the new, so is Satan.Which raises the question, if Satan pre-existed, then why did he wait till 28AD to reveal himself? Or maybe he didn't (see below). Anyway, I was talking frequency, not difference. The Satan of the OT and NT isn't so totally different, just less frequent. For instance:

? what is substantially different between the "diabolos vs Jesus" (Greek OT spelling of Jeshua) in Zech 3, and the "diabolos vs Jesus" in Matt 4?

? when Jesus told about his meeting with the diabolos, wouldn't the disciples minds go straight back to the diabolos temptation of the earlier "Jesus" in the days of Nehemiah?

? and would they assume that Jesus literally met the devil, and therefore so did the earlier "Jesus", the high priest. In which case Jesus of Nazareth was not the first person in world history to come face to face with the devil, he was the second...

God bless
Steven

Brother Mark
Dec 13th 2007, 02:10 AM
Hi Bro MarkWhich raises the question, if Satan pre-existed, then why did he wait till 28AD to reveal himself? Or maybe he didn't (see below). Anyway, I was talking frequency, not difference. The Satan of the OT and NT isn't so totally different, just less frequent. For instance:

? what is substantially different between the "diabolos vs Jesus" (Greek OT spelling of Jeshua) in Zech 3, and the "diabolos vs Jesus" in Matt 4?

? when Jesus told about his meeting with the diabolos, wouldn't the disciples minds go straight back to the diabolos temptation of the earlier "Jesus" in the days of Nehemiah?

? and would they assume that Jesus literally met the devil, and therefore so did the earlier "Jesus", the high priest. In which case Jesus of Nazareth was not the first person in world history to come face to face with the devil, he was the second...

God bless
Steven

No problems so far. I did mention earlier it was more frequent because we were being taught more openly. Scripture has done that from the beginning. It starts out with truth in general. It got more specific with the law and prophets. Then Christ was fully explained. Then came Paul to clarify and teach precept upon precept was Christ taught in parable form. Of course, James and Peter also helped out. So it would make sense that the devil would be mentioned more in the NT than in the old.

I<3Jesus
Dec 13th 2007, 02:55 AM
Who made the idea that satan is red and holds a falk and horns on his head?

When the bible say's he transform himself to a angel of light verse?
What form was he before that- i can't remember the verse.

In rev he is refer to as a dragon does it mean in that form?

Yours Peter

I thought Satan was a jolly old fat man in a red suit ;)

losthorizon
Dec 13th 2007, 03:39 AM
...if Satan pre-existed, then why did he wait till 28AD to reveal himself?

According to biblical calculations Job may have been a contemporary of Abraham (2000 years before Christ) or he could have lived even earlier. Satan did “pre-existed” as a living being and he was revealed by God well before A D 28. To teach otherwise is to misunderstand the word of God…
Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah. And Jehovah said unto Satan, “From whence comest thou?” And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” (Job 2:1-2)

angelus5370
Dec 13th 2007, 02:24 PM
PeterJ,

During the reformation Martin Luther was fond of making woodcuts which could then be reproduced and distributed throughout Europe. I believe this is the time when the red-suited "devil" came into fashion. Luther used it as a way to mock Satan, portraying him as a fool. The image took hold, but the fool part of it has been lost. If I recall correctly the imagery also mocked the religion Luther protested against.

With Jesus' love,

Follower (http://www.parkbc.org/follower)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him" – Has God made His home with you?

Luther may have portrayed satan as a fool, but he has more followers today than Christ!!! Is it maybe that people do not take the fact seriously that there is a real satan, because he was shown this way? :hmm:

Illumined
Dec 13th 2007, 04:02 PM
Hmmm...

Pretty substantial references to an entity that does not really exist.


I agree that he can exist in each of us, and even as any of us.
That does not discount Satan as a real entity in his own right.

would you please elaborate more....on this thought of yours

Illumined
Dec 13th 2007, 04:23 PM
The inevitable has happened.

The blasphemous point of view that the Devil works for God or God uses him as a tool, or weapon has entered the conversation.

I heretofore unsubscribe to this thread.

No...it is time TO subscribe.

You have brought up an interesting thought.

1 Corinthians 5

1.It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 5.hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%205:1-5&version=31#fen-NIV-28444a)] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Timothy 1:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

When the hedge of God's protection is removed from a person....satan can be allowed to do things.....even kill if allowed by God.

Job 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=1&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
"Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? ......

Job 1
18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

Job 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=22&chapter=1&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2
6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

In an odd way.....satan can be used of God

Steven3
Dec 15th 2007, 07:32 AM
Hi Bro Mark
No problems so far. I did mention earlier it was more frequent because we were being taught more openly. Scripture has done that from the beginning. It starts out with truth in general. It got more specific with the law and prophets. Then Christ was fully explained. Then came Paul to clarify and teach precept upon precept was Christ taught in parable form. Of course, James and Peter also helped out. So it would make sense that the devil would be mentioned more in the NT than in the old.

Well yes, this is certainly one explanation, and probably an important part of the overall explanation, as to why Satan/devil incidents are almost exactly 100x more frequent in the NT on a simple verse-count basis.

But there is an important difference between Satan and other OT shadows. In the OT Christ is foreshadowed as a real individual by 'types' such as Adam, Melchizedek, David, Solomon, and the first Immanuel (probably Ahaz' son, Hezekiah not Isaiah's son), Zerubbabel and so on. All of these are real people forshadowing a real person, Jesus of Nazareth. But in the OT Satan is foreshadowed not as a real individual but as an allegory. No one (meaning no one Jewish obviously) armed with just Zech 3 would assume that there was really an angel called Satan any more than they would assume there were really four horsemen. So what we get in the NT should also be an allegory.

OT Literal Immanuel-shadow, -> NT literal Immanuel
OT Figurative Satan-shadow, -> figurative Satan

The NT is clearer, fuller, but fundamentally still maintains the distinction between reality and allegory/metaphor. So the problem comes back again to the old chestnut - is the Bible literature, does it contain allegory and symbol. And if so how can we tell when we meet it. But we can't have this debate because so many Christians are already predisposed to view reading as allegory as an attack on inspiration. The assumption is that the literalist is a better human being than the person reading as literature.
God bless
Steven

tgallison
Dec 15th 2007, 12:17 PM
Hi Bro Mark

The NT is clearer, fuller, but fundamentally still maintains the distinction between reality and allegory/metaphor. So the problem comes back again to the old chestnut - is the Bible literature, does it contain allegory and symbol. And if so how can we tell when we meet it. But we can't have this debate because so many Christians are already predisposed to view reading as allegory as an attack on inspiration. The assumption is that the literalist is a better human being than the person reading as literature.
God bless
Steven

Steven3 Hi

Could you define literature as you see it in your mind? Could you present some examples of literature outside the Bible, that could be used to compare with? Would like to understand better what you are saying.

In Jesus Christ, terrell

napsnsnacks
Dec 15th 2007, 02:17 PM
Hi Bro MarkWhich raises the question, if Satan pre-existed, then why did he wait till 28AD to reveal himself?

Satan is not omnipotent and is limited in what he can do. If he was not restricted the world as we know it would not even exist, he would have destroyed it and every creationist in it.

Check the biblical record and you will see that he didn't reveal himself. Jesus is the one who first revealed Satan's person and his character.

There are reasons for this too, I'm just waiting on someone to hit on why he is not known to the peoples of the OT but the existence of this adversary is known to NT people.

Yes, WE find and know of Satan in the OT but THEY were not aware of this and there is a reason that Satan's person and his character was not revealed in those days.

If it was the Devils decision he would probably be walking the streets like you and me.

losthorizon
Dec 15th 2007, 04:00 PM
...The NT is clearer, fuller, but fundamentally still maintains the distinction between reality and allegory/metaphor. So the problem comes back again to the old chestnut - is the Bible literature, does it contain allegory and symbol. And if so how can we tell when we meet it. But we can't have this debate because so many Christians are already predisposed to view reading as allegory as an attack on inspiration. The assumption is that the literalist is a better human being than the person reading as literature.

What this poster misunderstands is the reality that Satan is a literal being who can and does converse with his Creator,
“And Jehovah said unto Satan, “From whence comest thou?” And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, “From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.” (Job 2)Allegorically, this literal being (Satan) is described as “the dragon”, i.e., he is not a "literal dragon" but he remains a literal created being just as the angels that surround the throne of God are literal created beings.

This poster has a predisposed bias that forces him to reject a literal “hell” and a literal Satan. This same bias forces the equally non-biblical doctrines of soul-sleeping and the final annihilation of the soul after the Judgment.

Kahtar
Dec 15th 2007, 09:58 PM
This poster has a predisposed bias that forces him to reject a literal “hell” and a literal Satan. This same bias forces the equally non-biblical doctrines of soul-sleeping and the final annihilation of the soul after the Judgment.This is not a discussion about 'this poster'. It's about satan's form. Discuss the topic, not each other.

Brother Mark
Dec 15th 2007, 10:07 PM
Hi Bro Mark

Well yes, this is certainly one explanation, and probably an important part of the overall explanation, as to why Satan/devil incidents are almost exactly 100x more frequent in the NT on a simple verse-count basis.

But there is an important difference between Satan and other OT shadows. In the OT Christ is foreshadowed as a real individual by 'types' such as Adam, Melchizedek, David, Solomon, and the first Immanuel (probably Ahaz' son, Hezekiah not Isaiah's son), Zerubbabel and so on. All of these are real people forshadowing a real person, Jesus of Nazareth. But in the OT Satan is foreshadowed not as a real individual but as an allegory. No one (meaning no one Jewish obviously) armed with just Zech 3 would assume that there was really an angel called Satan any more than they would assume there were really four horsemen. So what we get in the NT should also be an allegory.

OT Literal Immanuel-shadow, -> NT literal Immanuel
OT Figurative Satan-shadow, -> figurative Satan

The NT is clearer, fuller, but fundamentally still maintains the distinction between reality and allegory/metaphor. So the problem comes back again to the old chestnut - is the Bible literature, does it contain allegory and symbol. And if so how can we tell when we meet it. But we can't have this debate because so many Christians are already predisposed to view reading as allegory as an attack on inspiration. The assumption is that the literalist is a better human being than the person reading as literature.
God bless
Steven

The serpent in Gen 3 seemed pretty real to me. Allegory nor symbol displace the literal. They all work together. Hagar is the slave woman that represents, allegorically, Jerusalem. Yet, Hagar really existed. The literal, the symbol, and the allegory all existed in this example.

The serpent was real that spoke to Eve. Certainly, Eve accused him before God. If the serpent is not real, then perhaps God is not real. All the beings in the Genesis account are real beings.

Satan spoke to God in heaven in Job.

If we take scripture at face value, and at type and shadow value, and at symbolic value, they all point directly to a real being that is working in this world today. Jesus spoke with him in the NT. God spoke with him in the OT. Eve (a type of the bride of Christ) spoke to him in the Garden. Demons knew Paul by name in Acts. Jesus new demons by name in the gospels.

Scripture lays out a pretty good case for Satan being real and evident. He is the god of this world according to the NT. Paul spoke of him as a literal being. Peter did as well.

Scripture suggest that Satan is a real being in many, many places.

As for the 100X mention, I still beg to differ. But we've been down that path already. ;)

Soj
Dec 15th 2007, 11:13 PM
The serpent in Gen 3 seemed pretty real to me. Allegory nor symbol displace the literal. They all work together. Hagar is the slave woman that represents, allegorically, Jerusalem. Yet, Hagar really existed. The literal, the symbol, and the allegory all existed in this example.

The serpent was real that spoke to Eve. Certainly, Eve accused him before God. If the serpent is not real, then perhaps God is not real. All the beings in the Genesis account are real beings.

Satan spoke to God in heaven in Job.

If we take scripture at face value, and at type and shadow value, and at symbolic value, they all point directly to a real being that is working in this world today. Jesus spoke with him in the NT. God spoke with him in the OT. Eve (a type of the bride of Christ) spoke to him in the Garden. Demons knew Paul by name in Acts. Jesus new demons by name in the gospels.

Scripture lays out a pretty good case for Satan being real and evident. He is the god of this world according to the NT. Paul spoke of him as a literal being. Peter did as well.

Scripture suggest that Satan is a real being in many, many places.

As for the 100X mention, I still beg to differ. But we've been down that path already. ;)Well summed up Mark, that is sound Christian doctrine.

I believe that one of the greatest proofs that Satan/the Devil/the serpent is a literal figure in the Bible is that he is said to have a "seed":

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Steven3
Dec 16th 2007, 03:43 AM
Hi Bro Mark
The serpent in Gen 3 seemed pretty real to me. Allegory nor symbol displace the literal. They all work together. Hagar is the slave woman that represents, allegorically, Jerusalem. Yet, Hagar really existed. The literal, the symbol, and the allegory all existed in this example.That's my point:

"the craftiest of the animals", 2Co "the serpent" => Rev 12 " that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, "
Hagar => mountain, physical Jerusalem in AD60.
Rehum, Shimshai, Sanballat, Tobiah, foreign wives, bribes => Jeshua's diabolos and "dirty clothes".

what you need is an example where Satan is the literal thing allegorized.

Literal fallen archangel (contra Heb1:14) => allegorized as?


The serpent was real that spoke to Eve. Certainly, Eve accused him before God. If the serpent is not real, then perhaps God is not real. All the beings in the Genesis account are real beings. Correct. But that doesn't mean that the serpent is the NT Satan any more than Hagar was a physical mountain.
Satan spoke to God in heaven in Job. No, absolutely not correct. The book of Job is a book of poetry, an oral epos or drama, an Ancient Near East wisdom book. Those dialogues are not verbatim transcripts of real conversations, no one talks like that for that length in poetry in series. There was never literally a conversation in heaven where an angel tempted God and God gave him power to manipulate Chaldeans, S[h]abeans, the wind, the fire of God, and boils. James 1 rules this out - God cannot be tempted by evil. The events in the prologue of Job are impossible if they are literal.

They are as impossible as the throneroom debate where God calls for suggestions from his angelic committee in Micaiah's 1Kings22:22 vision. That never happened either. As the slap Micaiah received from the real (literal) lying spirit Zedekiah Ben Chanaiah indicated.


If we take scripture at face value, and at type and shadow value, and at symbolic value, they all point directly to a real being that is working in this world today.But if we really want to take scripture at "face value" then we have to reconcile Job's Satan with Rev12. But they are contradictory. Either Job1 is true, or Rev12 is true. No Christian theologian has ever been able to reconcile these two Satan allegories for a very simple reason - between c.700BC and 70AD the allegory shifted. An allegory can evolve. A real "face value" angel doesn't. Or, alternatively, explain how Job1 and Rev12 can be reconciled. It can't be done.

Or if it can be done, then do it ;)


Scripture suggest that Satan is a real being in many, many places.

The craftiest of the animals was real
Balaam's satan-angel was real
David's 1Chron21:1 2Sam24:1 "satan" was real (circumstance rather than God directly)
Hadad was real,
Rezon was real,
Rehum and Shimshai were real, their "satan" letter was real (Ez4:6)
Sanballat and Tobiah were real, their bribes were real
Jeshua's grandson's pagan wife was real,
Haman was real (LXX only, the diabolos verse isn't in the Hebrew version of Esther)
the Jews who wanted Jesus to make bread and take the kingdom by force in John 6 were real
the priests who wanted Jesus to perform a Messianic sign at the temple in John 2 were real
Jews who interpreted Ps91 to mean the Messiah would appear on the pinnacle of the temple were real
the Nazareth synagogueites who tried to throw Jesus off a cliff were real
Judas was real (John 6:90)
Peter was real (Matt16)
the so-called "Superapostles" in Corinth were real,
the gossipy elderly sister "devils" in 1Tim and Titus were real
the "throne of Satan" in Pergamum was real.But Satan isn't real. If he were then Paul would hardly turn people over to him in 1Co5 for them to be saved.
God bless
Steven



Hi SoJ
But the devil did not literally father the Pharisees in John 8:44. They did not have his DNA. So on that basis one cannot assume that the seed of the serpent is literal, literally what (giants?). Whether Satan is an allegory or a fallen angel either way he still didn't literally have seed, and if he did (the giants) then they drowned in the flood.
God bless
Steven