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maybrick
Sep 20th 2009, 08:15 PM
Quick question.

As i remember the story of the fall, God tells Eve to avoid eating of the tree.

Why did he not also warn her that he had either directly placed, or allowed to be there a deceitful (debateably) and ill intentioned snake.

Surely the Almighty new that the snake would do what it did, and being onnipresent and therefore was actually watching did nothing to intervene.

It seems to me that basically you have the tale of a true innocent caught between the games of two ancient and immortal beings (assuming that snake=Satan).

Any other veiws?

daughter
Sep 20th 2009, 10:54 PM
Eve knew God personally. She walked with the Voice in the garden. Since she knew God, she must have known that any voice which challenged God was deceitful. Remember, Adam and Eve were not stupid... they were given dominion over all the earth. They were possibly the most intelligent couple who ever lived.

So while she was "innocent", she wasn't gullible, or stupid.

We have here a woman who was privileged to know God personally, and she still chose to listen to someone who called God a liar. God didn't have to tell her there was evil in the world. If God is all good, then it's obvious that someone who opposes God is not to be trusted.

That's one brief point... I'm sure you'll get lots of good feed back on this thread, but that's the point I wanted to make. Eve didn't fail because she was stupid. She failed because she was tempted to be like God, because she desired knowlege, wisdom, and because the "fruit looked good to eat."

In other words, lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Pride of life is probably the hardest one to spot in ourselves, but when Eve thought to herself that she could be like God... she was commiting a henious sin, and that sin was hers, not the serpent's. Yes, the serpent sinned also, but when we choose to sin, it's not someone else's fault, it's our fault.

Adam and Eve both pointed the finger and tried to blame someone else, but we have to be honest. When we sin, we can't point to the one who led us in that sin. WE are responsible.

th1bill
Sep 20th 2009, 11:28 PM
Maybrick,
... I will only add to Daughters answer in a small portion. Without the Tempter Eve would not have had the choice to obey/love God or to disobey/love self. When God, knowing what would happen, created the angels, He created them with a free will. Without a free will there can be no love. Without free will you have trained beasts, nothing more. God created Adam and Eve because of His desire to have His love returned also, just as He did with the angels. In my almost sixty-five years I have found love to be a very complex emotion to deal with and since the world has such a problem determining the difference between love and lust people have a very difficult time seeing why God has done much of what He has done.

Moxie
Sep 21st 2009, 02:18 AM
Maybrick,

In Genesis 2:16-17 it tells us that Adam was given the direct command to not eat of the tree. This occurred before Eve was created. In Chapter 3, we find that both Adam and Eve knew of this one command and were both present. Eve was tempted and Adam watched the temptation occur then partook of the fruit himself.

Yes, God knew of this...and He also has a plan of salvation for us all. Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve were not innocent as daughter has already mentioned. Neither are you and I. We all have choices to make. Adam and Eve had one choice to make either eat of the tree or not eat of the tree. They ate....now sin is in the world.

Like them, we now have one choice to make either accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and become a true believer, putting our faith and hope in Him or not accept Him as our Lord and Savior. Just like with Adam and Eve when God is not chosen there are dire consequences.

jayne
Sep 21st 2009, 02:31 AM
It seems to me that basically you have the tale of a true innocent caught between the games of two ancient and immortal beings (assuming that snake=Satan).

Any other veiws?

Hi, maybrick!

You've gotten some good replies so I won't elaborate on what's been said.

I would like to address two points concerning your last comment.

(1.) For the Christian, God and Satan are not both immortal and there is not a contest of wills between them.

The earth never has belonged to satan, nor has humanity belonged to him, and there is no contest. Even at the battle of Armageddon, there will be no actually "battle". Revelation 19 says that Jesus will open His mouth and it's all over.

"The Earth IS the Lord's and the fullness thereof." - (Ex. 9:29; Deut. 10:14; Psalm 24:1; 1 Cor. 10:26-28)

Jesus cried on the cross, "It is finished!"

Satan is referred to as the "prince of this world", but a "prince" is under the authority of a King. He only has the power that God allows him to have.


(2.) Satan is not immortal. To be immortal, one has to have no beginning and no ending.

Satan has a definite beginning. Just like us. Just like the animals. Just like mountains, rivers, and trees. Satan is a created being just like a turnip is a created thing.

There is no ying and yang, no power struggle, and no contest of wills. Satan has been given a temporary reign over this temporary home of ours. He is powerful and as the Bible says, is "like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." We, as humans, can never be to lax concerning his hatred of us, but as the Bible says, "Greater is He (God) that is in me than he (Satan) that is in the world."

Desperaux
Sep 21st 2009, 02:39 AM
Seeing as Eve didn't scream, "Eeeeek! A snake!!" I doubt she wasn't familiar with who he was.

tango
Sep 21st 2009, 04:55 AM
Quick question.

As i remember the story of the fall, God tells Eve to avoid eating of the tree.

Why did he not also warn her that he had either directly placed, or allowed to be there a deceitful (debateably) and ill intentioned snake.

Surely the Almighty new that the snake would do what it did, and being onnipresent and therefore was actually watching did nothing to intervene.

It seems to me that basically you have the tale of a true innocent caught between the games of two ancient and immortal beings (assuming that snake=Satan).

Any other veiws?

Ultimately Eve had to make the decision whether to obey God, or disobey God. Without the choice to disobey our obedience is worthless. Without the choice to do our own thing any decision to do God's thing is empty.

Why would God need to warn Eve? The instruction not to eat the forbidden fruit was explicit, what would be the value in saying "don't eat the fruit of that tree, even if the snake does suggest you do?"

Why would God intervene? If we are to have a free will that means we have to be free to do the things God tells us not to do. As in the previous paragraph, unless we have a free choice to disobey our obedience doesn't mean anything.

Eve chose to disobey. The rest is history. The question for you is whether you will obey.

markdrums
Sep 21st 2009, 12:50 PM
I have to agree with Tango's post.
The "SIN" is directly related to Eve disobeying God's command NOT to eat the fruit.... It's not about the fruit itself, but the willfull disobedient act of CHOOSING to go against what God explicitly told her and Adam.

To put it into modern context, let's say you have a child at home & told him/her NOT to eat a cookie before dinner.
The child knows (s)he is supposed leave them alone. Not because the cookie itself is "bad", but because the parent clearly said not to.

If the child chooses to disobey the parent's command, (s)he knows there will be trouble & punishment to follow.
Was the child "set-up" to fail? Of course not. The parent established a rule for a particular reason, & that should be sufficient.

Yes, that's a very simplified parallel/comparison, but it demonstrates what the "sin" / "willfull disobedient act" is.

;)

Moxie
Sep 21st 2009, 05:16 PM
Seeing as Eve didn't scream, "Eeeeek! A snake!!" I doubt she wasn't familiar with who he was.

Maybrick,

Satan works in this way....placing doubt in our minds as to who God really is. Eve walked with God, she didn't walk with Satan. Yet, when Satan came around his conversation was subtle but with specific intent. He placed doubts in Eve's mind as to whether our not God's word can be trusted. As you know from the story, by eating of the fruit sin was brought into the world. This alone should say something about whether God's word to Adam about eating of the tree could be trusted or not.

Belief in a Holy God and in His Son Jesus Christ begins with trusting God with your heart and not giving way to the doubts that Satan casts.

This here is a doubt that Satan has placed in front on you:


Surely the Almighty new that the snake would do what it did, and being onnipresent and therefore was actually watching did nothing to intervene.

Maybrick, I only bring this to your attention as something to think about. :hug:

Steven3
Sep 23rd 2009, 03:48 AM
It seems to me that basically you have the tale of a true innocent caught between the games of two ancient and immortal beings (assuming that snake=Satan).

Any other veiws?

Other views. Mmm. Well, I suppose one has been presented already which is the view of a literal Adam and Eve (and I have to say I share this view since the genealogy of Christ in Luke 3:38 "the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." takes us back to a literal Adam), but from the point of view of asking your question - which is sort of a moral question on God, it's possible that for those who take Gen 3 as totally figurative/allegorical it might be an easier moral dilemma to answer. Difficult for me to speak to it, as I don't share that view. Just mentioning that it comes under "any other views" you asked for.

Another view again would be one rabbincal idea that the tree-snake ate the fruit itself and didn't die, but was enabled to speak. (That's simply a speculation obviously)

And perhaps other views too...

But fundamentally, whether we see the serpent as simply "more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made." (Gen.3:1) or an archangel disguised as a serpent, or simply as an allegory (the view I say exists, but I personally can't speak for), doesn't really change the question you are asking, since we are still left with the story as told presenting God not warning Eve about the serpent.

Was God negligent?

I can only understand this in terms of the primary responsibility for managing temptation being on the tempted rather than tempter. For example when the Jews came to Jesus in John 6 and asked him to make bread in the wilderness, did God need to say to Jesus "watch out for the Jewish people - they want you to fill their physical needs and drive out the Romans". Or was it merely enough for Christ to know from Deuteronomy that "man does not live by bread alone" (the answer given to the devil in Matt4, not the answer given in John6, but the principle is the same). The parallel is the same - God provided his word (in this case the OT rather than 1 rule to Adam and Eve) and the responsibility to act on that word, and deal with people (or serpents) contradicting God was up to the tempted.

The same is true today. God is not going to drop out of the sky in front of someone and say "beware your work colleague, he/she is going to lead you astray in making false expense claims", God gives the guidelines "don't eat from that tree" and the consequences "or you will die" and then leaves us to get on with meeting life's challenges. There's no more moral dilemma from God's standpoint re a temptation in the daily workplace and a temptation in the garden of Eden.


I think the question - why did God not warn Adam and Eve about this supernatural evil being, is more in terms of traditional depictions of the event (whether a baby-faced cherub offering the apple, or a giant lizard), but in reality there was no great deceptive display, no spectacular miracle or trick, just words:

Gen 3:3 God : eat, die
Gen 3:4 snake : eat, don't die.

Just words, and no other temptation beyond the (A,B,C) below in her own eyes.

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that (A) the tree was good for food, and that (B) it was a delight to the eyes, and that (C) the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.


Genesis 3:13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

I don't see any sign in 2Co11:3 of God being negligent in not warning about the snake, whether it was a snake, an angel, or an allegory. The responsibility is on the woman, as - Paul argues - is it also for the Corinthians to be on guard.

David Taylor
Sep 25th 2009, 04:45 PM
It seems to me that basically you have the tale of a true innocent caught between the games of two ancient and immortal beings (assuming that snake=Satan).

Any other veiws?

As others have touched on, Satan isn't immortal.

Satan is a created being; God alone is without beginning.

We can even learn from the Scriptures, that Satan didn't even pre-date the Creation week; but he, along with all other angels, as well as all the other species, man, hippos, butterflies, etc...were all created in the original creation week.

Notice that Satan was created along with all of the other Heavenly host, during the Creation week.

Even up until the creation of Adam and Eve on the 6th day, Satan had not yet even fallen, but was still following God.

It was only sometime after Adam and Eve's creation on the 6th day, and some time between that and when Satan later approached Eve in the garden of Eden, that Satan turned against God.


Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
.
(skip down to the 6th day of Creation)
.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"

So you can see that at the time of the end of the 6th day, and the beginning of the 7th day; all things that God created were still good.
That would even include Satan, who was at that point still a member of the host of heaven.

Satan is a wannabe; but he has no power over those who belong to God.

Romans 8:31 "If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

pekoe
Sep 26th 2009, 04:39 PM
Why did he not also warn her....
That someone else would come along and tell her that His word wasn't true?

maybrick
Sep 28th 2009, 06:32 PM
That someone else would come along and tell her that His word wasn't true?

Hello Eve.

looking nice this morning.

Just thought i would let you know, even though you cannot really understand the full meaning of what i am saying...there is this concept of lying. There is also this idea of causing harm to others.

Even though you are completely trusting its a good idea to be a little sceptical.

I mean, look at the Dodo...big pidgeon, no natural threats...no means of defence. Didn't take long for you humans to eat them all.

Oops...that hasn't happened yet.

Forget i said anything.

The Mighty Sword
Sep 28th 2009, 07:16 PM
We are all lied to by the enemy, some see it and some choose not to see it. :), then there are the chronic denialist.

pekoe
Sep 30th 2009, 02:53 PM
Hello Eve.

looking nice this morning.
Hi not Eve. You are not too shabby yourself! :hug:


Just thought i would let you know, even though you cannot really understand the full meaning of what i am saying...there is this concept of lying. There is also this idea of causing harm to others.
I'm a police officer. I'm pretty familiar with the concept of lying and causing harm to others. :cry:


Even though you are completely trusting its a good idea to be a little sceptical.
I'm quite skeptical of those I don't know well, but trusting of those I do know. Aren't you the same way?


I mean, look at the Dodo...big pidgeon, no natural threats...no means of defence. Didn't take long for you humans to eat them all.

Hey, if you're having a barbecue I'm in.

Desperaux
Sep 30th 2009, 05:24 PM
Didn't take long for you humans to eat them all.

Aren't you human also? :lol:

To answer the OP, the Lord simply gave man the ability to choose. He wants us to love Him over all options. I find His love so overwhelming that He would risk losing the love of His Creation for the sake of their own self-determination.

Metamorphasis
Oct 3rd 2009, 05:06 AM
This is a very interesting part of the Bible for me. So much happens and so much is implied in the story. An interesting thing to know is that pagans believe that the snake in the garden of eden was the goddess of knowledge and wisdom oroboros who was there merely to "englighten" Adam and Eve. I of course don't believe that, but its just one of the fun facts you pick up from having a colorful past.

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