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RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 04:38 PM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW

-SEEKING-
Dec 8th 2009, 04:41 PM
Let's start out this way. Do you have scripture for your point of view?

Reynolds357
Dec 8th 2009, 04:53 PM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW

I would simply start by saying that murder is an act. Murder is sin.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:01 PM
I would simply start by saying that murder is an act. Murder is sin.

Hi Reynolds,

That's a valid point! But does the act of murder simply happen or is it a result of man's fallen condition?

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Many Blessings,
RW

goykodesh
Dec 8th 2009, 05:01 PM
Theft seems to fall into the category of an act, so I would call the action sin.

Coveting would be more of a condition of mind, also defined as sin. Lying about the theft is another sin. Not compensating the victim for the action is another sin.

See how fast they add up?

What we wind up with is the corruption of mind, body and soul, which leads to rebellion.

and death.

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2009, 05:03 PM
God doesn't tell us "Don't be in a condition where you will dishonor your parents, murder, or cheat". He tells us directly "do not murder", "do not dishonor your parents".

The actions are wrong, therefore the actions are sinful.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:07 PM
Theft seems to fall into the category of an act, so I would call the action sin.

Coveting would be more of a condition of mind, also defined as sin. Not compensating the victim for the action is also a sin.

See how fast they add up?

Hi goykodesh,

Yes, but where do these acts of sin come from? Is it not true that acts of sin would not exist if mankind were not born in a condition wholly inclined, even in bondage toward sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2009, 05:08 PM
Yes, but where do these acts of sin come from? Is it not true that acts of sin would not exist if mankind were not born in a condition wholly inclined, even in bondage toward sin?

But how does that make sin a "condition" rather than an "action".

stupes
Dec 8th 2009, 05:15 PM
Hi goykodesh,

Yes, but where do these acts of sin come from? Is it not true that acts of sin would not exist if mankind were not born in a condition wholly inclined, even in bondage toward sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

I don't know about that.
"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

God makes man upright but we seek out our own ways. That is an action - to seek our own way.

timmyb
Dec 8th 2009, 05:19 PM
Romans 7 is good scriptural basis for Roger's point

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:22 PM
I don't know about that.
"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

God makes man upright but we seek out our own ways. That is an action - to seek our own way.

Hi stupes,

Why do we all seek our own way? Is it not because we are all born in the same fallen condition as our first parents?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:28 PM
But how does that make sin a "condition" rather than an "action".

Hi HisLeast,

Sin is a condition of which every man born in Adam acts upon. Without a fallen condition via human birth we would not sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2009, 05:29 PM
Sin is a condition of which every man born in Adam acts upon. Without a fallen condition via human birth we would not sin.


Adam and Eve didn't fall until they sinned. Seems to me that sin is an action, predisposition to it or not.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:30 PM
Romans 7 is good scriptural basis for Roger's point

Yes it is timmyb!

Many Blessings,
RW

Nobunaga
Dec 8th 2009, 05:31 PM
Yes good point well made, we sin because we are sinners and the sooner we pick up our cross and deny ourselves the better.

This is why watchman Nee said the only solution for a sinner is for him to die ! in order for the spirit to have power the flesh has to die, and by the grace of God we can testify with Paul... I live but not i, it's Christ in me.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:37 PM
Adam and Eve didn't fall until they sinned. Seems to me that sin is an action, predisposition to it or not.

But it is the predisposition (condition) to sin that I am arguing for. There was no predisposition until the fall...now every human is born 'conditioned' toward sin, and no man can live in human flesh without sinning...except of course Christ Jesus. Hence sin is not an act...sin is a condition of the human will to which every man (except Jesus) is born with.

Many Blessings,
RW

EarlyCall
Dec 8th 2009, 05:41 PM
Hi Reynolds,

That's a valid point! But does the act of murder simply happen or is it a result of man's fallen condition?

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Many Blessings,
RW

If sin is not an act as you say in your first post, why do you here refer to the act of murder? Do you also not consider murder to be sinful then?

It amounts to a game when we try to claim two related but separate and distinct things are actually only one thing.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:45 PM
Yes good point well made, we sin because we are sinners and the sooner we pick up our cross and deny ourselves the better.

This is why watchman Nee said the only solution for a sinner is for him to die ! in order for the spirit to have power the flesh has to die, and by the grace of God we can testify with Paul... I live but not i, it's Christ in me.

Hi Nobunaga,

Some would have us believe we don't become sinners until we sin. The Bible agrees with you, we do not become sinners when we sin, we sin because we are born conditioned toward sin. Apart from Christ we can do none other.

Many Blessings,
RW

tim_from_pa
Dec 8th 2009, 05:46 PM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW

Well, Roger, it's BOTH actually. At least God thinks so. Proof of that is in the offerings Israel were commanded to offer up in Leviticus. There was a sin offering, and then there was a trespass offering.

VerticalReality
Dec 8th 2009, 05:53 PM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW

I disagree. Sin is very much an act. James tells us that one who knows to do good and does it not it is sin to him/her . . .

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 05:56 PM
If sin is not an act as you say in your first post, why do you here refer to the act of murder? Do you also not consider murder to be sinful then?

It amounts to a game when we try to claim two related but separate and distinct things are actually only one thing.

Hi EarlyCall,

Basically what sin is...a 'condition' of being guilty of continued offense against God. A condition is... anything essential to the existance or occurence or something else. For sin to exist man must be born in a fallen condition in bondage to sin. If man is not born in this bound condition to sin, then man does not need a Savior to save him from sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2009, 06:06 PM
But it is the predisposition (condition) to sin that I am arguing for. There was no predisposition until the fall...now every human is born 'conditioned' toward sin, and no man can live in human flesh without sinning...except of course Christ Jesus. Hence sin is not an act...sin is a condition of the human will to which every man (except Jesus) is born with.


You said it yourself: "There was no predisposition UNTIL the fall"

What happened before the fall? A sinful act. If there were no sinful acts, then there wouldn't have been a fall.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 06:21 PM
Well, Roger, it's BOTH actually. At least God thinks so. Proof of that is in the offerings Israel were commanded to offer up in Leviticus. There was a sin offering, and then there was a trespass offering.

Hi tim,

I don't know where you're going with this line of thought. The trespass offering was an offering for sin.

Le 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

The act of sin would not exist if man was not born conditioned toward sin. Yes, we certainly do act out every sin we commit. My point is that every man commits acts of sin because sin is a condition of the human will of every man born in Adam. None are born apart from this fallen condition that guarantees we are all born with the condition toward sin.

Many Blessings,
Rw

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 06:24 PM
You said it yourself: "There was no predisposition UNTIL the fall"

What happened before the fall? A sinful act. If there were no sinful acts, then there wouldn't have been a fall.

And there would have been no need for a Savior!

Many Blessings,
RW

Reynolds357
Dec 8th 2009, 06:42 PM
Hi Reynolds,

That's a valid point! But does the act of murder simply happen or is it a result of man's fallen condition?

Mt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Many Blessings,
RW
When man committed the first sin, he had not yet fallen. Sin is a result of free will. The fact that we live in a fallen world makes it much more opportunistic to sin, but it would be unfair to say we sin because we live in a fallen world.

Reynolds357
Dec 8th 2009, 06:45 PM
And there would have been no need for a Savior!

Many Blessings,
RW
There would have been no need for a Savior if man had not sinned. Man not sinning was God's ideal plan.

tim_from_pa
Dec 8th 2009, 08:42 PM
Hi tim,

I don't know where you're going with this line of thought. The trespass offering was an offering for sin.

Le 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

The act of sin would not exist if man was not born conditioned toward sin. Yes, we certainly do act out every sin we commit. My point is that every man commits acts of sin because sin is a condition of the human will of every man born in Adam. None are born apart from this fallen condition that guarantees we are all born with the condition toward sin.

Many Blessings,
Rw

I know its every bit relevant. A clue as to where I'm going is if we can blanket sin under one's condition only, then there would be need for only one type of offering to cover everything. I'm not disagreeing with your premise about one's condition, but the act is the outward manifestation of that sin. And certain acts are sin, if a person commits that act unknowingly, they committed sin despite the best of intentions.

However, at least you see it's a condition and offer the sin offering. Most people think it's their act alone and only offer the trespass offering and "if I behave myself I will be acceptable to God" totally missing the idea that it's their condition. However, we must not swing to one extreme or the other. It's two sides of the same coin.

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 08:58 PM
When man committed the first sin, he had not yet fallen. Sin is a result of free will. The fact that we live in a fallen world makes it much more opportunistic to sin, but it would be unfair to say we sin because we live in a fallen world.

Okay Reynolds, let's say man had the ability to choose to obey or not prior to the fall. Would you not agree that something happened to that ability after the fall? Does not Scripture tell us that every man is in bondage to sin and death unless/until he/she is born again? Since fallen man is in bondage, how is he free? We don't sin because we live in a fallen world, we sin because we are born in a fallen condition that makes us wholly inclined toward sin. We can't claim, as some might that circumstances or the devil made me sin. NO! We sin because sin is a condition of the fallen human will. Since the fall every man is either a servant to sin because of our fallen condition, or a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Dec 8th 2009, 09:05 PM
There would have been no need for a Savior if man had not sinned. Man not sinning was God's ideal plan.

Reynolds, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but is it really your opinion that God could not accomplish His ideal plan because man, through free will was able to disrupt God's plan? It sounds like your saying man is sovereign because God will not supress man's free will so He can accomplish His ideal plan...Are you sure God does not allow sin to accomplish His ideal plan? If sin were not part of God's ideal plan to save a people for Himself, why did He provide an answer for the problem of sin from before the foundation of the world? Remember Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

goykodesh
Dec 8th 2009, 09:12 PM
Hi goykodesh,

Yes, but where do these acts of sin come from? Is it not true that acts of sin would not exist if mankind were not born in a condition wholly inclined, even in bondage toward sin?

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi RW,

Oh boy, that's one of them questions that can be answered in one word or by thousands. I think you asked for the root of sin? I'm going to try two words -

Heart-condition.

HisLeast
Dec 8th 2009, 09:13 PM
Okay Reynolds, let's say man had the ability to choose to obey or not prior to the fall. Would you not agree that something happened to that ability after the fall?

One might. What Reynolds and I argue is that it took a sinful act in order fro there to be a fall in the first place. This "sin" is action, not status.

But rather than go round-and-round on definition, let me ask you this. What are the broader ramifications of viewing sin as "not actions"?

goykodesh
Dec 8th 2009, 09:18 PM
But it is the predisposition (condition) to sin that I am arguing for. There was no predisposition until the fall...now every human is born 'conditioned' toward sin, and no man can live in human flesh without sinning...except of course Christ Jesus. Hence sin is not an act...sin is a condition of the human will to which every man (except Jesus) is born with.

Many Blessings,
RW

I think Jesus' conterporaries called this "the evil inclination." The fact that three words in Hebrew for transgression of God's standards for righteousness (and this includes intent) are all translated as "sin" in English can cause much confusion.

Reynolds357
Dec 8th 2009, 09:28 PM
Reynolds, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but is it really your opinion that God could not accomplish His ideal plan because man, through free will was able to disrupt God's plan? It sounds like your saying man is sovereign because God will not supress man's free will so He can accomplish His ideal plan...Are you sure God does not allow sin to accomplish His ideal plan? If sin were not part of God's ideal plan to save a people for Himself, why did He provide an answer for the problem of sin from before the foundation of the world? Remember Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Many Blessings,
RW
I am saying that God gave man free will. God has a perfect will and a permissive will. In God's soverignty, he chooses to let man operate somewhere between the two. Do we have free will, or are we puppets on the strings of the grand puppetmaster? God did not create Adam to sin. Adam chose to sin. It is not God's will that anyone go to hell, but people die and go there every minute of every day. FREE WILL, we either have it or we do not. Are we free, or are we puppets? God knew the future. He knew the choice man would make. Therefore He made provision to deal with that choice. That in no way means that choice was God's perfect will.

Servant89
Dec 8th 2009, 10:25 PM
But it is the predisposition (condition) to sin that I am arguing for.

Scripture please.


There was no predisposition until the fall...

Adam was walking naked, not being aware he was naked and in that condition of innocence, without any "predisposition" .. he sinned. That means, we do not need to have a predisposition to sin, we do it without anyone or anything pushing us.

This is nothing new. When Adam sinned, and God confronted him, Adam said to God: "The woman that you gave me..." Blaming God for his own fault. When Eve sinned and God confronted her, she said: "The serpent deceived me". She blamed someone else too. Nothing has changed. Man keeps looking for excuses to blame God for our own faults. Some say: DNA made me do it. I was created like this. I was abused... I was born with this condition that forces me to sin. It is not our condition that causes us to sin, it is our choice. And God provided an answer to make it clear that when we sin it is not because it was too strong for us to handle it

1 Cor 10:13 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Ps 32:5 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=32&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I acknowledge my sin (not my condition) unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.


Hence sin is not an act...sin is a condition of the human will to which every man (except Jesus) is born with.

Sounds catholic. Sounds like the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Jesus did not come in a different flesh from which we came.

1 Jn 4:3 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=63&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The flesh of Jesus was not the flesh of Adam before the fall. He had the same kind of flesh that David had. It is written:

Rom 1:3 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb 2:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How can he expect us to be holy if he lived in a different flesh without our weaknesses?

Gal 4:14 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Heb 4:15 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

When Adam and Eve sinned, two things changed after the fall for them. 1. They realized they were naked. 2. They knew the difference between good and evil. When a baby is born, he is born with the condition of Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall. We get the other one later, after we sin. See Deu 1:39.

Deut 1:39 (http://webnet77.com/cgi-bin/bible/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Shalom

Partaker of Christ
Dec 8th 2009, 11:50 PM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger

I think it is both.

Sin is our condition, but sins are the fruit of.

Bad tree = bad fruit

Partaker of Christ
Dec 9th 2009, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by HisLeast http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=2293645#post2293645)
You said it yourself: "There was no predisposition UNTIL the fall"

What happened before the fall? A sinful act. If there were no sinful acts, then there wouldn't have been a fall.



And there would have been no need for a Savior!

Many Blessings,
RW

This is the part were I might disagree with you.

Jesus said "Only God is good"

Though Adam was innocent he was not yet good.
He was not the finished article that God wanted for His children. Adam had life from God, but not the life of God in him. God wanted Adam to take freely from the Tree of Life. I believe it is only that life that cannot sin.

For us today, we not only have been made innocent, but we also have wat God intended 'Christ in us'

EarlyCall
Dec 9th 2009, 12:22 AM
Hi EarlyCall,

Basically what sin is...a 'condition' of being guilty of continued offense against God. A condition is... anything essential to the existance or occurence or something else. For sin to exist man must be born in a fallen condition in bondage to sin. If man is not born in this bound condition to sin, then man does not need a Savior to save him from sin.

Many Blessings,
RW

You didn't answer my question. What should I assume was your reason for not doing so?

There is a sinful condition and there are sinful acts. To say there are no sinful acts is silliness. Perhaps I have misunderstood you in thinking you are claiming there is no such thing as a sinful act. Hopefully so.

holyrokker
Dec 9th 2009, 12:36 AM
Sin is NOT an act...sin is a condition! A condition of the human will (heart, mind) to which every man is born in. This is why, apart from Christ, even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Do you agree or disagree with the above statement? Please support your opinions with Scripture.

Many Blessings,
RW
I disagree because Scripture does not state that the human will is born in sin, nor does Scripture state that sin is a condition.

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