I am your sister in Christ.
Because this board is largely Arminian in doctrine, I am in the minority with my reformed views; I acknowledge and understand this.
I also understand that your view of scripture is different than mine.

But what I cannot tolerate, and frankly am quite sick of, is the way many members of this board treat those of us of the reformed faith.
We cannot post without being drug through the mud for our beliefs.
A vast majority of the time, we are slandered horribly.
Since joining this board one year ago, I have been told my doctrine leads many to Hell and asked how I am going to explain that to my God. I have been told I worship a Molech God. I have been told I am not a Christian.
I have been told I obviously do not study my bible.
I have been told I do not evangelize or care about the souls of anyone else but my choice group.

I ask you, is that the way to treat another member in the body of Christ?

Its gotten so bad, that I have seen friends of the reformed faith who once were extremely active members of this board leave because, frankly, we feel persecuted for our beliefs. This includes my own husband, who once dearly enjoyed his time here.
Sad, but true.

Please pray about the way you respond, especially in bible chat, to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Because it can get downright ugly; especially when you are in the minority.

I want to say not everyone responds this way; and although we differ in opinion, people like Brother Mark, always respond in love; he challenges me to dig deep in the scriptures, and sometimes has made me reconsider and change my view on things.

We're different from you in some respects, but we love God with all our hearts and our greatest desire is to serve Him.
Please respect that. Debate the doctrine, debate our views, but please stop with the unfair verbal assaults.

Thanks.

In Christ's great love,
Jen

Can you mention some names to bring this all out into the light???

Jen,

I appreciate your ministry here. I am very sorry you feel this way. :hug:

I am not a Calvinist, and find the entire argument rather pointless. Is it possible you are aligning personally with a belief?

We all here tend to agree on the scriptures, (with some exceptions) but the spin / slant /interpretation of the scripture varies by individual.

I am not a fan of 'ism's... I think there are many who seem to agree. Maybe it would be easier to just be 'Jen' then to be 'Reformed Jen'. :)

I know I am also tired of seeing so many threads become sidetracked for the sake of pet doctrines. I hope we can move past this, at least for a while.....

I really don't think naming names would accomplish anything; you'd be surprised.
Its been more than a handful of times, and reaching a breaking point lately.

Amos,:hug: love you my brother, I really do.

I am not some raging, in your face, hyper-calvinist. *promise* lol :)
I think anyone who *knows* me on this board can attest to that.
I try to encourage with my posts, I do engage in some debate as well, and of course the way I interpret scripture to read in certain areas leads me to align with the reformed view on topics like OSAS, but I don't think I am ever assaultive in my postings; especially on the basis of one's doctrinal view being different than mine.

The things I have mentioned in the OP, are all true, and have all been said to me. Lately, Calvinism has become the dirty word thrown out in all sorts of threads, even when its not relavant to what is being discussed in any form. (ie: in the prosperity thread) I feel like I need to wear a scarlet letter "C" and hang my head in shame. Its just plain hurtful.

In *real life* 90% of my friends are Arminian in doctrine. And the Emmaus community in which I do outreach is nearly 100% Arminian. I can play nice with those of differing view--because I am not playing---I dearly love them, many are my best of friends.

Just a prompting to show respect and love for each other; regardless of what we may agree or disagree on.

Jen

If my disagreements with your beliiefs appeared to be personal attacks, then I apologize. It's probably due to my ignorance about the issue. As for the rest of us, understand we all carry some portion of pain from past experiences with religion, and it does spill over, sometimes in genuince concern, other times as a response to the pain inflicted. Yet discouragement is a faith-killer, and even more so when one has much zeal and love for God.

But always remember this, and hold onto it, becasue all of us will be persucted/berated/condemned by someone for how we respond to God - rememeber that the only one you are accountable to is God.

Though I am not a Baptist, a famous Baptist preacher once said something that I will never forget -

"Obey God and leave the concesquences to Him."

May God bless you and keep you.

***On edit I see that I am probably the one who sent you over the edge. Please read my response in the other forum.

Moreover it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

Only the Lord can change hearts. Be of good courage our Lord will not suffer you to be overcome. Our Lord was buffeted and suffered tribulation from His brethren. We who name the name of Christ can expect no less. It is very difficult to understand why the ones who we should be able to fellowship with in the word are often the very ones who cause us the most grief. Perhaps this is why Jesus wept.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jen, I fear that I might be one of the people who made you feel this way. If so, I apologize. I'm rather touchy right now about several different things and the, "I'm chosen" part of Calvinism is one of them.

I should have taken time to have expressed myself in a more thoughtful and caring manner than i did and for that, i am sincerely sorry.
V

Folks we must understand the seriousness of what we are doing to one another when we make non-essentials of the faith, essentials. We must, in love, agree to disagree. In fact, we are no better than unbelievers when we cause each other pain for the cause of denominational doctrines or theologies. We are all distinct and we are all unique. We cannot have a cookie cutter application to Scripture.

So, apart from blatant heretical teaching I ask that you all refrain from posturing and inflicting pain on someones non-essential beliefs

In Jesus

In reality, my sister, most of us here are here to 'contend for the faith.' I know what I believe, and do state it over and over. I don't often say I am this or I am that. Hopefully though, because of what I write here, many will know what my beliefs are. Now, whether or not theirs is the same as my beliefs, well, its their problem if there is one. Neither of us should get mad because we all don't agree on our beliefs.

But, I do express my beliefs and opinions. There are those who sometimes disagree with me, too, but if I am firmly convinced of what I believe and can show it by scriptures, then I will go on, contending for the faith. Those who do disagree with me...it does not make me angry or sick or sad or anything.

If anyone is really convinced of what they believe, do you really think it should anger them for someone to contend with them? If someone really is convinced, should contention cause them to leave the board? What I've seen much of the time is that if one is in a minority in a discussion, it is usually that one who ends up replying to each and every post, and finally they get frustrated and than they get angry, due to having to defend what they believe.

But that is really a good thing. I am one like many others here who used to believe a certain way, until I saw things I hadn't seen before in the Bible. Now, that did make me angry. I had been misled. I had allowed myself to be misled. I had not studied as much as I should have on my own. You see, sometimes we can change our beliefs.

But the thing is, we just each have to keep on digging that much deeper....to keep on proving what we believe. I doubt that anyone is deliberately taking personal punches at you, but at what your beliefs are.

It will be that way until Christ returns.

We must, in love, agree to disagree.


I agree to this. http://www.myspacesmilies.com/smilies/happy0024.gif

I would like to state that this forum has helped this child of God to receive the pure gospel and each of you posting in this thread were instrumental in that. There's so much confusion and twisting of the Word that even mature Christians need to be exposed to the different and/or opposing views. So please don't throw the baby out with the bath water, as adults, we should be able to differ, but differ in love.

It truly is sad that we make others feel this way. I know that sometimes I can get pretty worked up about a subject, but I always have to remind myself that it's another person, a child of God, that I am talking to. It's not an enemy. I should be mindful of others beliefs. Not so that we can't discuss our differences, but if someone does have a problem with what I say, guess what, it is my problem. I pray that we all take a good look inside of ourselves and make sure we do everything in love.

1 Timothy 6:12-21
12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
20 O Timothy [insert your name here], guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--
21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

God is not a respecter of persons.

Either is His love for us devoid of confrontation and rebuke.

Have the courage of your convictions.

Don't hold to a line of dogma, but rather speak what you know, what God has established (alive) in you.
If we speak from this, there can be no doubt, and no room for being found false later on.

This forum like any public forum is a battleground of ideas, of the conflicting truths men hold to so dearly.
Such places are great for training for battle and for exposing the truths of men (the earthly understandings of the things of God) things that we where taught and hold to as if they came from God.
Better to be held by the truths of God then to hold to them in our earthly capacity!

How would you feel if your where Peter who said something boldly with full conviction only to be told by Jesus "Get behind me Satan"
I believe few of us are beyond being used of Satan, that is to say the ones that are beyond such are the ones without sin.

If we are right then also we are humble and will receive the rebuke of all, without taking up our own defense.

If we doubt in what we have been rebuked it is because we did not receive it from God.
If we are unshaken in the knowledge of Him, because this truth was received with power and is alive in us, what can we do for those who charge us falsely but speak the truth and pray for mercy and repentance.
If we are unshaken and the truth we speak of is not being lived through our lives, we should fear God, because we speak what we do not know.

I believe if we speak in love what we have received from God in Spirit it will be a truth with power that cuts to the core.
Just like it was for Jesus, the end result is some will love you for it and most will hate you for it.
Who wants to be hated and maligned?
But if we aspire to the life of Christ Jesus lived in and through us we must accept this too.
So count the cost and contend earnestly for the faith.

We are call to bless those who curse us.
We are called to share in His sufferings.
We are called to the fullness of the stature of Christ Jesus!

May the truth you know be the life of our Lord and nothing less, to the glory to God!

Amen!

I apologize if I have ever upset you as well.

I'm a prophet, so Ii don't get offended by anybody's opinions, beliefs, or words, but I realize that not everybody has this spiritual gift.

Try being a guy like me who teaches the differences between the Jewish epistles and the Gentile epistles, and watch people in the USA(Gentiles) get upset. I believe you can even get banned from these forums for doing this?(hope not) I'm not saying that Gentile Christians can't use the Jewish epistles, or that Jew Christians can't use the Gentile epistles, just pointing out the vast differences between the two due to the 1st century historical divisions between Jew and gentile Christians.

Sounds interesting webhead. I'd like to hear your views on the differences in the epistiles. Would you mind starting a thread about that so as not to derail this thread?

Sounds interesting webhead. I'd like to hear your views on the differences in the epistiles. Would you mind starting a thread about that so as not to derail this thread?

Will I get banned for it? Does it belong here, or in the controversial subjects forum?

Well go ahead and start here in Bible Chat. I'm one of the mods here in Bible Chat, so if I see it's too controversial I'll move it there.

Well go ahead and start here in Bible Chat. I'm one of the mods here in Bible Chat, so if I see it's too controversial I'll move it there.

Ok, sounds good.

I am your sister in Christ.
Because this board is largely Arminian in doctrine, I am in the minority with my reformed views; I acknowledge and understand this.
I also understand that your view of scripture is different than mine.

But what I cannot tolerate, and frankly am quite sick of, is the way many members of this board treat those of us of the reformed faith.
We cannot post without being drug through the mud for our beliefs.
A vast majority of the time, we are slandered horribly.
Since joining this board one year ago, I have been told my doctrine leads many to Hell and asked how I am going to explain that to my God. I have been told I worship a Molech God. I have been told I am not a Christian.
I have been told I obviously do not study my bible.
I have been told I do not evangelize or care about the souls of anyone else but my choice group.

I ask you, is that the way to treat another member in the body of Christ?

Its gotten so bad, that I have seen friends of the reformed faith who once were extremely active members of this board leave because, frankly, we feel persecuted for our beliefs. This includes my own husband, who once dearly enjoyed his time here.
Sad, but true.

Please pray about the way you respond, especially in bible chat, to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Because it can get downright ugly; especially when you are in the minority.

I want to say not everyone responds this way; and although we differ in opinion, people like Brother Mark, always respond in love; he challenges me to dig deep in the scriptures, and sometimes has made me reconsider and change my view on things.

We're different from you in some respects, but we love God with all our hearts and our greatest desire is to serve Him.
Please respect that. Debate the doctrine, debate our views, but please stop with the unfair verbal assaults.

Thanks.

In Christ's great love,
Jen

In God's word, tucked neatly away is a comment made about Moses: he was the most humble man in the world.

Of course, were Moses alive today and on this board, he'd be getting set straight often by quite a few on this board.

God bless. :)

Thank you Jen for having the courage to point this out. It needed to be said. I would note that most, if not all, of the people who have apologized are NOT the major offenders in this regard which I have seen. That tells me they are sincere Christians who are genuinely concerned they may have offended a sister in Christ. For that they are to be commended and they are gifts to to this forum. Although I have disagreed with some of said apologizers on a variety of issues I do not doubt for a second their sincere devotion to the cause of Christ. SOLA CHRISTOS!

Jen,

It saddens me to here you feel persecuted here.We are all part of Jesus' sheep fold and some times we forget that when debating a doctrine stance. I too apologize if I have offended you or your husband or the others you have mentioned. I have prayed and am still praying that we as Christians can look at the scriptures every time with an open mind ready for the revelation from God as to what it means. We will not know all the answers until the perfect comes and anyone who claims to have all the answers has to humble themselves. I see no reason why all the different doctrine believers can't just come together in love with a open mind to edify God from our time here.

I think the thing we need to do is call ourselves Christians rather than label ourselves by our doctrine. Personally I refuse to align myself with a doctrinal title, end times title or even denominational title, I am simple a Christian. I am glad to have you as a sister in our Lord and proud to be able to also call you a friend. You are very strong in the faith and you encourage a great many of us here with how you live your faith in Jesus. Stay strong and love everyone.

Sister, when someone says something against Calvinism, and you respond "I am glad God chose me because I would have chosen to go to hell", you may think that is a nice response, but it has a kick to it that invites some to get more personal. It moved the conversation from discussion of doctrine to discussion of your emotion and belief. It could be like casting pearls before swine. (Not saying those that disagree with you are swine, but you get the point.) The time for praise about something personal is not in contro because it feels like baiting.

Other than that, I get your point.

I'm stunned.

I thought that this was primarily a Calvinistic/Reformed board and that the few Arminians were the ones that were constantly accused of being heretics, unbiblical, universalist, and non-believers in the sovereignty of God.

Guess it just depends on whose ox is being gored at the time.

I guess I am probably considered one of the "major offenders" when it comes to "bashing" Calvinism. I know and fellowship with many Calvinists. Some are truly Calvinists, but most say they are but do not really believe the doctrine. What I find odd, and quite commical, is that the true Calvinists will not go to any great length to argue their doctrine. They belive that the free will of man is almost nonexistent. So, if I am "bashing" Calvinism, they could care less because they believe I am doing the only thing I can do. The way they see it, I do not have the ability to not "bash" Calvinism unless I get to the point on The Lord's script for my life when it is time to quit "bashing" Calvinism.
Having said that, I really do not intend to offend you. I have no desire to. The thread about prosperity where I compared extreme Calvinism to Extreme prosperity doctrine was not intended to offend Calvinists. What it was intended to do is to show that if you take any doctrine to its extreme, the doctrine usually becomes false doctrine.
My beliefs get bashed all the time. Does not bother me too much. It used to, but I just reconciled myself to the fact that I am in the minority and it will happen.

I'm stunned.

I thought that this was primarily a Calvinistic/Reformed board and that the few Arminians were the ones that were constantly accused of being heretics, unbiblical, universalist, and non-believers in the sovereignty of God.

Guess it just depends on whose ox is being gored at the time.

Me too..I thought most believed in Calvinism on here but then I haven't been in any of those discussions in a long time..either I am not seeing them or I am getting really good at ignoring them...:cool:


Sick of It--seriously (moved from BC)

I am your sister in Christ.
Because this board is largely Arminian in doctrine, I am in the minority with my reformed views; I acknowledge and understand this.
I also understand that your view of scripture is different than mine.

But what I cannot tolerate, and frankly am quite sick of, is the way many members of this board treat those of us of the reformed faith.
We cannot post without being drug through the mud for our beliefs.
A vast majority of the time, we are slandered horribly.
Since joining this board one year ago, I have been told my doctrine leads many to Hell and asked how I am going to explain that to my God. I have been told I worship a Molech God. I have been told I am not a Christian.
I have been told I obviously do not study my bible.
I have been told I do not evangelize or care about the souls of anyone else but my choice group.

I ask you, is that the way to treat another member in the body of Christ?

Its gotten so bad, that I have seen friends of the reformed faith who once were extremely active members of this board leave because, frankly, we feel persecuted for our beliefs. This includes my own husband, who once dearly enjoyed his time here.
Sad, but true.

Please pray about the way you respond, especially in bible chat, to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Because it can get downright ugly; especially when you are in the minority.

I want to say not everyone responds this way; and although we differ in opinion, people like Brother Mark, always respond in love; he challenges me to dig deep in the scriptures, and sometimes has made me reconsider and change my view on things.

We're different from you in some respects, but we love God with all our hearts and our greatest desire is to serve Him.
Please respect that. Debate the doctrine, debate our views, but please stop with the unfair verbal assaults.

Thanks.

In Christ's great love,
Jen

I am truly sorry this has happened to you..no one should talk to anyone like that on here. I can certainly understand your hurt. I hope I haven't added to this...can't think of anything but then I don't have the greatest memory..so maybe I did! Hope not!

But I would like to give you a little insight as to why some may be getting so personal and the debate gets so heated..though I can only speak for myself on this:

I avoid these debates most of the time because I have some painful emotions and memories of it...I almost lost my faith because of this doctrine. I left the board for awhile because of it too in fact. and I struggled mighty with God over it. The way I saw it I could not worship a God that picked and choosed like the roll of a dice like that. I had never heard of it until I came to this board then got sidelined out of the blue with it one time. It shook my faith to the core! I actually felt myself...my spirit pulling away from God because I was so repulsed by this idea. (I realize these statements may seem attacking towards your belief...but I am not trying to attack you..am not attacking you..I think you are a very sweet and sensitive person. I am just explaining to you what I personally experienced.)

I prayed the Lord hang on to me if this was not true as I went through this storm. I was SO upset about it that I couldn't even study about it. I had several members on here trying to help me through PM giving me scriptures to look at and trying to calm me down. It was one of the worse trials my faith had ever gone through! It was horrible...I wanted the doctrine banned from the board because of the kind of damage it had done not only to my faith but other newer Christians on here that didn't know the bible well. There was a big long discussion about it between the owner and the members but it was considered a valid doctrine and allowed to stay..though I still disagree with that. Its not worth someone losing their faith over..(even though I realize you don't think that is possible..it did nearly happen to me).

I struggled too because I loved God and still do of course. I didn't want to seperate from Him. But I felt myself separating because of this. It was extremely painful in my spirit. Its was like having my heart ripped out of my chest...:cry:

So for awhile..after I recovered..still being the immature Christian I was, I was very hostile towards those that had this idea. I didn't seperate their beliefs from them at that time...much to my shame now.

Over the years I have grown spiritually and I have no bad feelings towards you at all personally for having this view. I don't think I knew you did but it changes nothing for me. You are still my sister in Christ.

Again I am deeply sorry you have been treated this way.

God bless
Julie

I'm stunned.

I thought that this was primarily a Calvinistic/Reformed board and that the few Arminians were the ones that were constantly accused of being heretics, unbiblical, universalist, and non-believers in the sovereignty of God.

Guess it just depends on whose ox is being gored at the time.

I'm stunned as well. lol!
By my count there are 12 people of the reformed faith on this board. Maybe I have missed one somewhere?!:confused
I'm not sure of the total membership; but by my count, that definitely places us in the minority.
And as I have said, I don't have a problem debating the doctrine; either you identify with it, or you don't-- not a big deal.
I just hate the personal jabs. I don't like being labeled a heretic, or unsaved, or evil.. or any number of other insults to my very real, very deep personal faith.
I really haven't seen who identify with the Arminian doctrine being called heretics or some of the more derogatory labels that have been attached to Calvinists.

Jen

Because this board is largely Arminian in doctrine, I am in the minority with my reformed views; I acknowledge and understand this.


If by Reformed Views, you mean good sound Biblical teaching; I stand with you. :)

Thank you Jen for having the courage to point this out. It needed to be said. I would note that most, if not all, of the people who have apologized are NOT the major offenders in this regard which I have seen. That tells me they are sincere Christians who are genuinely concerned they may have offended a sister in Christ. For that they are to be commended and they are gifts to to this forum. Although I have disagreed with some of said apologizers on a variety of issues I do not doubt for a second their sincere devotion to the cause of Christ. SOLA CHRISTOS!

I do agree. The majority of those who have responded in apology are NOT the people who have made the derisive and hurtful comments.
I also must say I have had many pms and visitor messages with very heartfelt apologies which I was very grateful and humbled to receive.
I hold no grudges or hostility towards anyone. All is forgiven.
I appreciate the effort being made to specifically address the doctrines and not demean or deride those who hold them.

In Christ,
Jen

I do agree. The majority of those who have responded in apology are NOT the people who have made the derisive and hurtful comments.
I also must say I have had many pms and visitor messages with very heartfelt apologies which I was very grateful and humbled to receive.
I hold no grudges or hostility towards anyone. All is forgiven.
I appreciate the effort being made to specifically address the doctrines and not demean or deride those who hold them.

In Christ,
Jen


When Clavicula Nox created a thread concerning an apology and included me in his apology I was honored, and I wasn't offened not the least bit because he brought something to my attention I needed to address, as christians it's ok to bring these thing out into the light, that's why I suggested that in the beggining, but to each their own. Jen I hope you resolve what is burdening your heart, but without these folks knowing who they are nothing will be done about it and it will continue. So God bless your efforts.

I
I really haven't seen who identify with the Arminian doctrine being called heretics or some of the more derogatory labels that have been attached to Calvinists.

Jen

I have experienced it more times that I can count, including today, when I was told Calvinist are Biblicist, with the clear implication that those who are not Calvinist are not.

Sister, when someone says something against Calvinism, and you respond "I am glad God chose me because I would have chosen to go to hell", you may think that is a nice response, but it has a kick to it that invites some to get more personal. It moved the conversation from discussion of doctrine to discussion of your emotion and belief. It could be like casting pearls before swine. (Not saying those that disagree with you are swine, but you get the point.) The time for praise about something personal is not in contro because it feels like baiting.

Other than that, I get your point.

To be fair, though, this remark I made is on page 4 of a thread entitiled: Calvin: was he evil? and in the Controversial section of the board, and the reply was to:
"Calvin taught that only the elect have access to God through salvation. That "whosoever will" means "whosoever is of the elect", and that the elect did not have any choice in the matter."
(this remark being made by an Arminian)

My reply was made inline with my scriptural understanding that we are dead in our sins, when Christ saves us; thus being unable to choose salvation for ourselves. Perhaps the jumping smilie was a tad too much? But... I am humbled and grateful beyond measure that God in His infinite grace chose me--when I had no reedeming qualities of my own to recommend me.
If you go back and re-read the thread, you will find that on page 1 , there are already some rather charged responses--emotions were running high before I responded. That being said, was my reply meant to make a statement? Yes, I confess it was.

In Christ,
Jen

If by Reformed Views, you mean good sound Biblical teaching; I stand with you. :)

Thats great to hear, Samuel :)
I'd love to invite you to join us in the Reformation Corner when your post count qualifies you to become a member of some of the social subgroups. :)

In Christ,
Jen

Hello. My name is grit. I'm a Calvinist. It's been at least two hours since I bashed an Arminian.

I'm usually a light-hearted kinda guy, but I really am not meaning to offend or make light of anyone's belief or person or stir up harmful emotions. I've been a poor ol' Christian a good long while, and I've seen harm and help from Calvinists and Arminians alike, and I've seen more than a few Arminians and Calvinists alike so disturbed by things done to them by the other side or Christians in general that it's a wonder of God's grace they were able to hold onto faith at all, God bless them.

I know it's likely frowned upon to talk about other boards or to some degree even this one, but I've been around Christian forum boards enough to know that some of them are a good deal more squirrelier (is that good English?) than this one (I like this one by the way, and I actually feed the squirrels in my yard all through the winter – I gots squirrels comin’ out my ears!); and though it's sad, I don't mind sayin' and I don't mean no offense or mischaracterization in sayin' that as a God-fearin' and respectful Calvinist I have been perma-banned from the most prominent Calvinist discussion board after only one post, which wasn't even found by that board to violate any rules or decorum and was thanked (similar to our repping) by several members of the community prior to my getting the boot. I only recount this to honestly show and humbly admit that we Calvinists can be a right mean and ornery folk (present company excluded of course), ever as much as Arminians if not more so – again, meanin’ no disrespect to my own proud heritage as a Scots-Irish (lots of Calvinists are Scots-Irish, btw), we got that red-haired mercenary temper that’s hailed the world over, and you just take a look-see at the most popular mercenaries throughout modern wars and I can just about guarantee there’s an Scots-Irish in there sumwhars.

Anyhow, I almost started a similar thread to this one, but mine were gonna be, Is it OK fer Calvinists to Continue as Members Here, Or is it Best We Mosey On?. blessedmommy did it much more graciously and forthrightly than I. I fully understand how many a Christian board is far more exclusive to a particular point of view than our own. I’m a member of much more exclusive boards, wish this were more open than it is (though I don’t post in World Religion near as much as I should), and I’m even a member of the largest online Roman Catholic discussion board (where I mostly Calvinistinize from the cheap seats, but only occasionally). I guess what I’m meaning to say is that I respect what we as a Christian family intend for this board to be. I love the exchange of very conflicting viewpoints, as long as we can do it in love and with respect. I even once ran it by the moderators in their secret halls as to starting a thread on whether or not Arminians were Christians, and guess what? They said post right ahead on, God bless ‘em. [Anyone’s who’s studied Calvinism to much depth will quickly find that it’s an issue of fair and frequent debate, just as this board sometimes allows concerning Roman Catholics.] I didn’t do it and don’t intend to. Truth is, any one of us who’s worth our weight in Christian confession is gonna hold the line at some point and say you can’t act this way or that way or believe this or that and be a Christian. Praise God, Christianity itself is exclusivist, claiming Jesus is the only way. No one wants to hear, “your god’s the devil!”, not even Muslims. I don’t think Arminians are as Arminians doomed to Hell – there’s been some great Christian Arminians – but I’ll have to admit that there are some Calvinists who believe one can’t be an Arminian and a Christian, and there are some Calvinists who even believe certain other Calvinists are not true Calvinists or even Christian. We can be downright mean and unloving. And yes, it’s a sickness, a sinfulness, both from Calvinistic and Arminian perspective, and (and I’m gonna step on a lot of toes here, ‘cause I did a survey and I know), even for those who might say, “Hey! Let’s dump the denominations and all hold hands together without any doctrine or confessions.” Mean is mean, wherever it raises it’s head, even if it masks as love and sincerely intends to be love (don’t get me started on Oprah).

Well, as you can see, I talk too much, but I just want to assure everyone that I’m sorry too, and that I don’t believe that Arminians serve a god who’s the devil anymore than Calvinists do. I apologize if I ever made that impression, or even if I impresstilated that their god was a squirrel, ‘cause whoever’s readin’ this that wonders what an Arminian is, well, they serve the very same Christian God as I do, even if in my squirrelly headed way I find they’re, well, somewhat squirrelly about it. I ain’t about ta go pickin’ up no snakes and dancin’ nekid nowhars neither, even though both of ‘em is right there in the Bible, plain as day. I will, however, let a couple of ya wash my feet if’n ya want. Though I've no doubt some might be offended by it, and I'm sorry for that too.

Good Arminians warsh their feet at home before they go to feet warshing (you warsh them both) so as to be an non-offensive with their dueling stinkies as possible.

I'd wash your feet anytime, Grit. Even right after walking out of a Calvinist pulpit.:D

Good Arminians warsh their feet at home before they go to feet warshing (you warsh them both) so as to be an non-offensive with their dueling stinkies as possible.

I'd wash your feet anytime, Grit. Even right after walking out of a Calvinist pulpit.:D

Bless your heart, I actually had a fellow Christian, who I embarrassingly took as sumwhat touched in the head, walk right up to me comin' out of an office supply store and insist on kissin' my foot (it was his way), right there in front of God and everybody. Well, I stood dumbfounded for a second or two and then took off my shoe and let him do it. We both prayed together a bit and headed on our way. I haven't seen him since. I would'a thought maybe he musta been some manner of Northern Christian what usually have cleaner feet, 'till a while latter I ran into another preacher of my own denomination who, while politely askin' about it, had as his habit greetin' everyone with a holy kiss right on the cheek with wet lips and everythang! (just as it also says right in the Bible) Why, I never saw so much open kissin' in a church in all my live long days! :hug:

Why not set up a nice orderly (and loving) debate in the 'Arena' between Arminians and Calvanists. Start off with both parties placing clear statements of faith (with supporting Scripture) and take it from there.

Also, make rules for those who want to participate in the debate. Breaking any of said rules will result in so-and-so being banned from further participation.

It could be interesting and enlightening.

God bless you all.

Why not just be Christians and leave the labels at the door?Seriously.If Christ came back today do any of us think he is going to line us up and ask us what group we belonged to?NO! He is going to look at us and if we accepted him as our personal savior,repented of our sins and was baptized -then he is going to say welcome ! The bible is extremely clear and I do not see the name Calvin or Arminian in it anywhere.GOD-bless

Why not just be Christians and leave the labels at the door?Seriously.If Christ came back today do any of us think he is going to line us up and ask us what group we belonged to?NO! He is going to look at us and if we accepted him as our personal savior,repented of our sins and was baptized -then he is going to say welcome ! The bible is extremely clear and I do not see the name Calvin or Arminian in it anywhere.GOD-bless


What you say is true, but at the same time all Christians should desire to understand and interpret the Scriptures correctly. One way of doing so is to debate the Scriptures with our fellow Christians. It's not the labels which are important, but our understanding and application of the Word of God.

What you say is true, but at the same time all Christians should desire to understand and interpret the Scriptures correctly. One way of doing so is to debate the Scriptures with our fellow Christians. It's not the labels which are important, but our understanding and application of the Word of God.

So we need a broker with and -ism- at the end of his name???

So we need a broker with and -ism- at the end of his name???

The use of the terms "Arminianism" and "Calvinism" are nothing more than shorthand to let people know in very short order the general -- NOTE -- general direction from which one interprets Scripture. It is just shorthand.

Just like using political labels of "Republican" or "Democrat." It doesn't tell you everything about a persons political thought, but gets you in a general direction without having to go through an entire list of beliefs.

So we need a broker with and -ism- at the end of his name???

If necessary, I guess.

The use of the terms "Arminianism" and "Calvinism" are nothing more than shorthand to let people know in very short order the general -- NOTE -- general direction from which one interprets Scripture. It is just shorthand.

Just like using political labels of "Republican" or "Democrat." It doesn't tell you everything about a persons political thought, but gets you in a general direction without having to go through an entire list of beliefs.

Like mormonism and catholicism etc, etc ???

How about Christism???

Like mormonism and catholicism etc, etc ???

How about Christism???

Nobody knows what that means.

Like mormonism and catholicism etc, etc ???

How about Christism???

Ahummm ...... the discussion of 'isms' is not what this thread is about.

It's about people being nice to one another on BF, especially when discussing and looking at topics from different perspectives.

Ahummm ...... the discussion of 'isms' is not what this thread is about.

It's about people being nice to one another on BF, especially when discussing and looking at topics from different perspectives.

Agreed........................

The use of the terms "Arminianism" and "Calvinism" are nothing more than shorthand to let people know in very short order the general -- NOTE -- general direction from which one interprets Scripture. It is just shorthand.

Just like using political labels of "Republican" or "Democrat." It doesn't tell you everything about a persons political thought, but gets you in a general direction without having to go through an entire list of beliefs.

Exactly.

And to simplify it even more and give practical examples: By denomination, Methodists, Pentacostals, and Charismatics are generally Arminian in doctrine-- famous preacher: John Wesley, is an example.
Presbyterians, some Baptists (including Southern Baptists) and some Lutheran are Reformed in doctrine--famous preacher Charles Spurgeon, is an example.

Jen

Well I been racking my brain and I hope I haven't typed anything bad. I use to be a Calvinist and it made me one mean and ornery, to be frank it was and I still consider the worst thing I ever did. I understood all the doctrines but it gave me a level of pride that I didn't have before, it has taken me a long time o get over Calvinism but I feel I am finally free of it and learning my new found Catholic Faith. I would never bash someone because they are Calvinist and I hope I haven't in m short time here.

If someobody wants to label me a 'Calvinist'... all the power to them.. Its just a label...

I do not follow Calvin.. or the 'other' 'ism'... or any other 'ism'...

he was not Crucified for my sin...

so any kind of label... means nothing to me... it doesnt mean anything....

If you were taken to Heaven.. you would find that there are no divisions there.. and when You stand before Him.. it won't make one bit of difference ... having a 'label' will not Save you..

You will not make it to Heaven by 'labels'..

He will ask you..

Did you Truly 'know' Me????

Oh that people would understand and know that there will be no divisions in Heaven.. and that 'labels' here on this earth mean nothing...

when you come to the Revelation... oh my the Freedom.... it is REAL...

and when that Happens by His Grace and Mercy... name calling , lableling, putting down someone because they follow this or that.. will go over the top of your head like the hot wind on an August day..

My Prayer is that you would experience this.... and Stand Firm on that Solid Rock.. that Rock of Offense.. Jesus the Christ...

He who has loved You with an Eternal Love... because you have been with Him from the Beginning...

Well I been racking my brain and I hope I haven't typed anything bad. I use to be a Calvinist and it made me one mean and ornery, to be frank it was and I still consider the worst thing I ever did. I understood all the doctrines but it gave me a level of pride that I didn't have before, it has taken me a long time o get over Calvinism but I feel I am finally free of it and learning my new found Catholic Faith. I would never bash someone because they are Calvinist and I hope I haven't in m short time here.

Just so we're clear on this, is catholic faith different that Christian faith???


Nope, just another label :)

Nope, just another label :)

Nice.........................

Do you have faith in Christ or catholicism, because they are not the same.

....I do not follow Calvin.. or the 'other' 'ism'... or any other 'ism'...

he was not Crucified for my sin......

I think this is an important point, and what I was alluding to with my earlier post.

When someone's identity is so closely tied to (for instance) Calvinism, it can be easy to see someone as 'a follower of Calvin' rather then a 'follower of Christ'. I do not suggest this is the case, only that it can blur the lines.

When your Avatar, your signature, or even you user name is related to the doctrine, I think it becomes a greater challenge for some people to reply to your posts without feeling the need to address the issue.

For instance,

If I posted as 'Amos_with_Goats, KJV ONLY!!!' I would likely invite some discussion of the 'KJV only argument into the discussion where ever I posted. If my signature quoted Jim Jones, I doubt that would be overlooked whatever thread I posted to.*

*(not to say I am KJV only, or that Jim Jones was a Calvinist or any such foolishness...).

I think this is an important point, and what I was alluding to with my earlier post.

When someone's identity is so closely tied to (for instance) Calvinism, it can be easy to see someone as 'a follower of Calvin' rather then a 'follower of Christ'. I do not suggest this is the case, only that it can blur the lines.

When your Avatar, your signature, or even you user name is related to the doctrine, I think it becomes a greater challenge for some people to reply to your posts without feeling the need to address the issue.

For instance,

If I posted as 'Amos_with_Goats, KJV ONLY!!!' I would likely invite some discussion of the 'KJV only argument into the discussion where ever I posted. If my signature quoted Jim Jones, I doubt that would be overlooked whatever thread I posted to.*

*(not to say I am KJV only, or that Jim Jones was a Calvinist or any such foolishness...).



You get 8 points for that.

Nice.........................

Do you have faith in Christ or catholicism, because they are not the same.

Let's not derail the thread

Let's not derail the thread

Yeah, I wouldn't answer that either.

I have no problem answering that my faith is in Christ and yes they are the same. Derailing the thread is bad form so if you want to discuss my faith there are other ways to do it instead of being confrontational.

I have no problem answering that my faith is in Christ and yes they are the same. Derailing the thread is bad form so if you want to discuss my faith there are other ways to do it instead of being confrontational.

A simple question isn't confrontational, unless you get defensive.

See Christ is the author and finisher of faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Looks like the bible is wrong again, according to you it should say Jesus and catholicism the author............. since they're the same.

That's why I try to be a lighthearted antidotist (though I've tried to think too hard on just what an antidote is, and I think maybe it might not be what I think it is). And, no yarn, strange as it may seem, ever since newinchrist showed up in the thread (Hi, newinchrist :wave:), I seem to be developing a fascination for balls of yarn. :yes:

A simple question isn't confrontational, unless you get defensive.

See Christ is the author and finisher of faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Looks like the bible is wrong again, according to you it should say Jesus and catholicism the author............. since they're the same.



You can start a new thread instead of bash another Christian, k.

You can start a new thread instead of bash another Christian, k.


Oh I'm sorry your a Christian now??? See newinchrist4now, we need to be careful with our words.

I almost posted something very witty here but erased it. That is love, dear brothers and sisters. :P

Oh I'm sorry your a Christian now??? See newinchrist4now, we need to be careful with our words.

Did I ever say I wasn't. I am sure the OP is happy you took the thread off course

I almost posted something very witty here but erased it. That is love, dear brothers and sisters. :PThat's what love is..... a big eraser. :yes:

Did I ever say I wasn't. I am surte the OP is happy you took the thread off course


it has taken me a long time o get over Calvinism but I feel I am finally free of it and learning my new found Catholic Faith. I.


Yes you did..........................

catholic faith.

Faith in Christ.

Once again becareful what you say.

That's what love is..... a big eraser. :yes:

Hey - I like this quote. Might use it in a poem if you don't mind?

I'm not sure if this is hearsay or truth but here goes:

I read somewhere that John Calvin and Martin Luther would often holler at another at the top of their voices and trade insults out in the open about their beliefs that they felt strongly about and differed on.

However, at the end of the day, Martin Luther stated he would be honored to preach at John Calvin's funeral, regardless of their differences. Because their faith in Christ was enough to knit their hearts together in love, and they greatly respected each other's place and work in the Kingdom, even when their minds were divided about certain things, and they both were just so passionate about what they believed and lived and preached.

I'm probably telling it all wrong but I think you get my point.

Not about the "it's okay to trade insults as long as you respect each other" but about the "respect each other's place in the Kingdom and let the love in your heart for each other outshine the differences in beliefs."

:)

On another board, now no longer around that I used to Administer, the owner had changed the 'post' buttons to say 'submit'.

I thought that was significant.... there were more then one post that I scrapped before posting... something about the reminder to 'Submit' (to the Lord) served as a good reminder.

I'm not sure if this is hearsay or truth but here goes:

I read somewhere that John Calvin and Martin Luther would often holler at another at the top of their voices and trade insults out in the open about their beliefs that they felt strongly about and differed on.

However, at the end of the day, Martin Luther stated he would be honored to preach at John Calvin's funeral, regardless of their differences. Because their faith in Christ was enough to knit their hearts together in love, and they greatly respected each other's place and work in the Kingdom, even when their minds were divided about certain things, and they both were just so passionate about what they believed and lived and preached.

I'm probably telling it all wrong but I think you get my point.

Not about the "it's okay to trade insults as long as you respect each other" but about the "respect each other's place in the Kingdom and let the love in your heart for each other outshine the differences in beliefs."

:)

I have not hollered about theology in over 10 years. I used to be good at it though.:lol:
With my friends of different denominations, we enjoy arguing about theology. We can agree to disagree, but the disagreement is usually fun and causes all parties involved to mature spiritually.

Yes, we need to be able to disagree with each other without destroying each others faith or hurting others. There's so much we can learn from each others views regarding the word of God, that it can bring a richness and depth of understanding that builds our faith, that maybe we could not find elsewhere.

There are many times, that I have learnt alot from other peoples views regarding the gospel, and have had to change my view, and other times which I disagree with them. I tend to find myself just reading the bible and believing what I do based on the what is written in the Bible. I don't think really associate myself with a particular view suchas being a Arminian, Calvinist, Reformed etc... But I do agree that when we post we should be respectful to others on the forum.

Joh 13:35
Everyone will know by this that you are my disciples – if you have love for one another.”

Eph 4:2
with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,

To be fair, though, this remark I made is on page 4 of a thread entitiled: Calvin: was he evil? and in the Controversial section of the board, and the reply was to:
"Calvin taught that only the elect have access to God through salvation. That "whosoever will" means "whosoever is of the elect", and that the elect did not have any choice in the matter."
(this remark being made by an Arminian)

My reply was made inline with my scriptural understanding that we are dead in our sins, when Christ saves us; thus being unable to choose salvation for ourselves. Perhaps the jumping smilie was a tad too much? But... I am humbled and grateful beyond measure that God in His infinite grace chose me--when I had no reedeming qualities of my own to recommend me.
If you go back and re-read the thread, you will find that on page 1 , there are already some rather charged responses--emotions were running high before I responded. That being said, was my reply meant to make a statement? Yes, I confess it was.

In Christ,
Jen

And when someone made a stronger statement in response, you got upset even though it was in contro. Then you came here and blamed those that disagree with you for being mean and mistreating you. Statements can be biting even when hidden in nice words. We reap what we sow Jen even if we say it nicely. The response you got wasn't coated as nicely as your response, but they communicated similar emotions and thoughts, IMO.

I'm not sure if this is hearsay or truth but here goes:

I read somewhere that John Calvin and Martin Luther would often holler at another at the top of their voices and trade insults out in the open about their beliefs that they felt strongly about and differed on.

However, at the end of the day, Martin Luther stated he would be honored to preach at John Calvin's funeral, regardless of their differences. Because their faith in Christ was enough to knit their hearts together in love, and they greatly respected each other's place and work in the Kingdom, even when their minds were divided about certain things, and they both were just so passionate about what they believed and lived and preached.

I'm probably telling it all wrong but I think you get my point.

Not about the "it's okay to trade insults as long as you respect each other" but about the "respect each other's place in the Kingdom and let the love in your heart for each other outshine the differences in beliefs."

:)

Although it's a cute story none of it is true. Luther died 18 years before Calvin so he didn't preach at Calvin's funeral. The two lived in different countries so they didn't "often" yell at each other. They met a few times (two that we know of, I believe) and the only points of doctrine they differed on were regarding communion. Luther believe in cosubstantiation and Calvin believed it was purely a symbolic eating of Christ's flesh and blood.

I'm not sure if this is hearsay or truth but here goes:

I read somewhere that John Calvin and Martin Luther would often holler at another at the top of their voices and trade insults out in the open about their beliefs that they felt strongly about and differed on.

However, at the end of the day, Martin Luther stated he would be honored to preach at John Calvin's funeral, regardless of their differences. Because their faith in Christ was enough to knit their hearts together in love, and they greatly respected each other's place and work in the Kingdom, even when their minds were divided about certain things, and they both were just so passionate about what they believed and lived and preached.

I'm probably telling it all wrong but I think you get my point.

Not about the "it's okay to trade insults as long as you respect each other" but about the "respect each other's place in the Kingdom and let the love in your heart for each other outshine the differences in beliefs."

:)I'm somewhat sure the reference is in regards to two Methodists, each credited with founding Methodism. Both were from the Church of England, but sort of on the outs with it as they were preaching evangelists rather than ordained ministers.

John Wesley, the Arminian, was asked to come to Georgia as a missionary. It was a disastrous journey on several levels, though he was spiritually influenced by his Moravian companions at the time, which he considered a blessing. While Wesley was away from England, the younger Whitefield, the Calvinist (in line with the Anglican 39 Articles), actually became quite a popular preacher and evangelistic celebrity. In his return to England, Wesley had a renewed religious conversion, broke with the Moravians back to the Church of England, but mostly allied his work with Whitefield at Whitefield's invitation (again, both of whom grew the ire of the official church as being more or less street preaching evangelists - there's some really interesting stuff in this, but I'll save it for later).

Whitefield next took the missionary journey to Georgia and other States, and, knowing their Calvinist/Arminian differences was touchy, asked Wesley to tone it down and preach on other things while he was away. Whitefield had great success in America, and is credited with the Great Awakening, though on the down side he convinced Georgia to drop their abolition of slavery, insisting that the state wouldn't get very far without it. The older Wesley just couldn't hold back his doctrinal enthusiasm while Whitefield was away, so that when Whitefield returned he found the Calvinistic crowds he had drawn had been turned to Arminianism by Wesley.

The two were bitter-sweet friends the rest of their lives, sometimes bitter and sometimes sweet, and indeed Wesley would often go to where Whitefield was publicly street preaching and the two would offer competing holler fest sermons to the crowds. Though younger, Whitefield died in 1770, more than twenty years before Wesley, and the two had reconciled enough for Wesley to preach at his funeral. Methodism remains somewhat split between Calvinism and Arminianism, but most of the Calvinistic Methodists later joined up with the Presbyterian church, so that today the Methodist church, and especially their descendants in groups like the Salvation Army and Pentecostal churches are very much Arminian.

And when someone made a stronger statement in response, you got upset even though it was in contro. Then you came here and blamed those that disagree with you for being mean and mistreating you. Statements can be biting even when hidden in nice words. We reap what we sow Jen even if we say it nicely. The response you got wasn't coated as nicely as your response, but they communicated similar emotions and thoughts, IMO.I know you and I haven't often agreed, and, though I certainly may be misreading, I can understand your sentiment of being prepared to take things in like measure; but if you've read the original opening post of the thread in question, and I'm not suggesting you haven't, nowhere in any post here or there and in any language of use or intent or possible rendering through interpretation has blessedmommyuv3 come even remotely close to expressing any similar sentiment as is found there.

I'm not one to generally report posts, and I actually find moderator restraint and graciousness a blessing, but I had quite a bit of difficulty straining to fit that original post within the boundaries of both the site and the forum for controversial issues. It's allowance as stands is what caused me too to internally ponder the status of Calvinists on the site, and whether we're thought by those determining such as to if we're welcome to continue here in the status we've enjoyed or are perhaps intended to be relegated to the same status as Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses by the board. I'm not wanting the board to become even narrower, but I would try to accept it if that in any way accurately reflects what the board owners and administrators desire. I sincerely don't think it does, even if I have some doubt, knowing that they by and large do not side with Calvinism and may equally think it harmful.

I welcome a thread regarding the good vs. evil status of Calvin and Calvinism, but one can certainly endeavour to be more respectful about it. I do not fault the OP for his obvious intent to give no offense and somehow in some philosophical way to fairly balance Calvin with Hitler and Stalin, even with inaccurate information not properly attributed, but doing such is a far cry from complaining of mistreatment - Hitler and Stalin actually killed, and killed millions; and even in posting about it one ought to reasonably expect that comparing such to Christ or Calvin or Arminius or any Christian is well beyond hiding some supposed stirring of negative emotions in nice words, just as is calling one's God the devil.

blessedmommyuv3 simply stimulates the question, "I ask you, is that the way to treat another member in the body of Christ?", and I'm happy to see Arminians and Calvinists alike here agree that, "No, it is not." Again, I appreciate that we Calvinists and members in general can benefit from a thicker skin, especially in the Contro forum.
:hug:

Jen, to be perfectly honest with you; I fully believe that Calvin taught a very dangerous doctrine that has led many to hell.
It is hard to be very nice and accomodating to such a false doctrine.
I can elaborate on my problems with Calvinism, but I do not think this thread is the place. Simply put, I respect you, but I have almost no respect for the dangerous doctrine of Calvinism.

It is correct that this thread is not the place to elaborate. Have the discussion in Bible Chat (or Controversial Issues since that seems to be where they head), discuss using Scripture....but do not attack each other. Keep in mind that we are brothers and sisters in Christ...real people behind our computers.

This thread is now closed.

Although it's a cute story none of it is true. Luther died 18 years before Calvin so he didn't preach at Calvin's funeral. The two lived in different countries so they didn't "often" yell at each other. They met a few times (two that we know of, I believe) and the only points of doctrine they differed on were regarding communion. Luther believe in cosubstantiation and Calvin believed it was purely a symbolic eating of Christ's flesh and blood.

That's why I put the disclaimer in. Cause let's face it, I'm a horrid story teller. :)

Gist is, don't let doctrinal differences let you lose sight of what's important or treat a brother or sister in Christ any less than you would treat Jesus, because He lives in them, too.

I bet one of the most oft-heard phrases in heaven (among others) will be "I can't believe we let that stuff divide us!" If we stand before the Lord then, will these things really matter? It's good to start thinking about that now, and prepare ourselves. :)