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Petey
Feb 2nd 2010, 03:03 AM
Even the disciples have trouble understanding the parables; Jesus consistently must later explain the parables' meaning to them.

How were the common people expected to make the important connections if not even the disciples were able to do so?

If the deal is that people simply didn't understand because they didn't have enough faith, there must have been virtually no one who effectively received Jesus's messages- it seems unlikely that even a moderate amount of the crowds would have better faith than the disciples, who didn't understand.

Butch5
Feb 2nd 2010, 03:12 AM
Jesus spoke in parables so that they wouldn't understand. It was so they would reject Him so that the crucifixion would take place. That is why He said no one can come to me unless the Father draws him. He also said, it is written in the prophets, they shall all be taught of God. These are the only ones who could come to Him. However, Jesus later said, if I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me. It was after the cross that everything became clear.

jayne
Feb 2nd 2010, 03:16 AM
Here's a commentary that adds to what Butch has to tell you. (From gotquestions.org)


Question: "Why did Jesus teach in parables?"

Answer: It has been said that a parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. The Lord Jesus frequently used parables as a means of illustrating profound, divine truths. Stories such as these are easily remembered, the characters bold, and the symbolism rich in meaning. Parables were a common form of teaching in Judaism. Before a certain point in His ministry, Jesus had employed many graphic analogies using common things that would be familiar to everyone (salt, bread, sheep, etc.) and their meaning was fairly clear in the context of His teaching. Parables required more explanation, and at one point in His ministry, Jesus began to teach using parables exclusively.

The question is why Jesus would let most people wonder about the meaning of His parables. The first instance of this is in His telling the parable of the seed and the soils. Before He interpreted this parable, He drew His disciples away from the crowd. They said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:10-17).

Here Matthew seems to suggest that their own unbelief is the cause of their spiritual blindness. The same event as told by Luke, however, emphasizes God’s initiative in obscuring the truth from these unbelievers (“to the rest it is given in parables, [so] that ‘Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand’” (Luke 8:10). Both things are true, of course. Yet we are not to think that God blinds them because He somehow delights in their destruction. This judicial blinding may be viewed as an act of mercy, lest their condemnation be increased. He employed parables to obscure the truth from unbelievers while making it clearer to His disciples. For the remainder of His Galilean ministry, He did not speak to the multitudes except in parables (v. 34). Jesus’ veiling the truth from unbelievers this way was both an act of judgment and an act of mercy. It was judgment because it kept them in the darkness that they loved (John 3:19), but it was mercy because they had already rejected the light, so any exposure to more truth would only increase their condemnation.

Our Lord Jesus understood that truth is not sweet music to all ears. Simply put, there are those who have neither interest nor regard in the deep things of God. So why, then, did He speak in parables? To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears. But to those with dull hearts and ears that are slow to hear, the parable is also an instrument of both judgment and mercy.

Petey
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:00 PM
"To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears."

So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them? It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. How would any one of the common people in the crowds then understood the parables?

And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Slug1
Feb 3rd 2010, 05:32 PM
meant[/I] for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.

Can anyone shed some light on this?Hey Petey, I asked something like this once to God Himself and this is what He ministered to me... who said I "said" what is read in My Word, or anything I am saying in My Word...?

Ya get it now? Don't read the Bible with a "God Said" mentality. Read the Bible as "God is Saying" and also allow the Holy Spirit to help you. It's His job to illiminate the very words you read.

chad
Feb 3rd 2010, 06:57 PM
(Mat 13:10 NIV) The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

(Mat 13:11 NIV) He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

(Mat 13:12 NIV) Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

(Mat 13:13 NIV) This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

(Mat 13:14 NIV) In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

(Mat 13:15 NIV) For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

(Mat 13:16 NIV) But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

(Mat 13:17 NIV) For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Sirus
Feb 3rd 2010, 07:00 PM
"To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears."

So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them?No. Jesus gave the interpretation of the parables privately to the disciples.
Today? Still no. Many want to understand them but do not know how to study scripture. So they read and understand out of context and without Jesus' explanations.


It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. How would any one of the common people in the crowds then understood the parables?

And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.

Can anyone shed some light on this?The disciples were common people. He specifically said he did not want others to understand, so it is futile to ask 'how could they?'.
We do not know how much of the parables they did not understand, but we know Jesus asked and they claimed to understand sometimes.

There were times the pharisees understood parables were about them and were made angry by them -Luk 20:13-19. So we can't say no one understood any of them or that it takes some special spiritual revelation from the Father. That simply is not always the case.

Since the parables are kingdom mysteries being revealed, I don't think they fully understood, or could put all the pieces together w/o the Spirit of truth.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Also, Jesus said those that did not see and hear, could see and hear and understand with their heart, be converted, and healed, if He spoke plainly to them. Surely He could have converted them if He so willed, but the faith has always been by faith.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
As Butch pointed out He came to be crucified. If He always spoke plainly to them and turned them they would not have crucified their king. He did not cause their blindness, He just didn't open their eyes. Notice they both saw the light and still closed their eyes and heard the word spoken like no other man had spoken it and they still closed their ears. Jesus did not start out speaking in parables. He did so after the leaders rejected Him.

goykodesh
Feb 3rd 2010, 07:11 PM
Parables and summaries are very common in both ancient and modern Judaism.

Here are some interesting parallels between Jesus' parables and rabbinic parables that most Pharisees adhered to....

A parable -
To whom can Rabbi Bun bar Rabbi Hiyya be compared? To a king who hired many workers. But there was one worker more efficient in his work than others. What did the king do? . . . Evening arrived and the workers came to collect their pay. The king gave the more efficient worker the same wage as he gave them. The other workers became boisterous and said, “We worked all day long, but this one worked only two hours, but you gave him the same wage!” The king said to them, “This one did more work in two hours than the rest of you did working all day long.” Thus, Rabbu Bun, who labored as a student of the Torah only twenty-eight years became as remarkable as a sage who had studied for a hundred years. (Jerusalem Talmud, Berakhot 2:8

For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. (Matthew 20:1-16

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Jesus -
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.- Matthew 6:7

Pharisees -
If one draws out his prayer and expects therefore its fulfilment, he will in the end suffer vexation of heart, as it says, Hope deferred maketh the heart sick. - Talmud: Berachot 55a

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Jesus -
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; - Matthew 5:43

Pharisees -
They who are insulted but insult not back; who hear themselves reproached but answer not; who serve out of love and rejoice in their affliction--of them it is written in Scripture: They that love God are as the going forth of the sun in its might. - Talmud: Yoma 23a, Gitin 36b, Shabat 88b

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Jesus -
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27

Pharisees -
Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b

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Jesus -
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. - Matthew 25:45

Pharisees -
One who betrays his fellow, it is as if he has betrayed God. - Tosefta Sh'vuot, ch. 3

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Jesus -
Insulting someone is like murder.- Matthew 5:21-22

Pharisees -
He who publicly shames his neighbour is as though he shed blood.- Talmud: Bava Mezia 58b

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Jesus -
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Matthew 5:28

Pharisees -
One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.- Kallah, Ch. 1

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Jesus -
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. - Matthew 5:45

Pharisees -
Rabbi Abbahu said: The day when rain fails is greater than [the day of] the Revival of the Dead,for the Revival of the Dead is for the righteous only whereas rain is both for the righteous and for the wicked - Talmud: Taanit 7a

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Jesus -
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 6:1

Pharisees -
In the case of the recital of the Shema’, since everybody else recites, and he also recites, it does not look like showing off on his part; but in the case of the month of Ab, since everybody else does work and he does no work, it looks like showing off.- Talmud: Berachot 17b

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Do not worry about where your food will come from tomorrow, or your drink. - Matthew 6:25-31

Rabbi Eliezer the Great declares: Whoever has a piece of bread in his basket and Says. ‘What shall I eat tomorrow?’ belongs only to them who are little in faith. - Talmud: Sotah 48b

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Jesus -
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. - Matthew 5:29-30

Pharisees -
Come and hear what was taught: Rabbi Tarfon said, ‘If his hand touched the membrum let his hand be cut off upon his belly’. ‘But’, they said to him, ‘would not his belly be split’? ‘It is preferable’, he replied, ‘that his belly shall be split rather than that he should go down into the pit of destruction’. - Talmud: Niddah 13b
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Jesus -
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. - Matthew 23:8

Pharisees -
Shemaiah used to say: love work, hate acting the superior, and do not bring thyself to the knowledge of the ruling authority. - Mishnah: Avot 1:10
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blessedmommyuv3
Feb 3rd 2010, 07:13 PM
I would like to add to the excellent verses that Chad cited earlier:

John 17:
6“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.


20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

In Christ,
Jen

Brother Mark
Feb 3rd 2010, 07:27 PM
Even the disciples have trouble understanding the parables; Jesus consistently must later explain the parables' meaning to them.

How were the common people expected to make the important connections if not even the disciples were able to do so?

If the deal is that people simply didn't understand because they didn't have enough faith, there must have been virtually no one who effectively received Jesus's messages- it seems unlikely that even a moderate amount of the crowds would have better faith than the disciples, who didn't understand.


The pharisees and scribes committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The minute they did it, he started speaking in parables. It surprised the disciples and they asked him why he did it. His answer was he did it to hide the truth so that they would not repent and be saved.

Mark 3:22-26
22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons." 23 And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
NASU

amd in Mark 4 he answers the disciples question as to why he did it.

Mark 4:10-12

10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."
NASU

Why did he not want them forgiven at this point? Because of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Look back to Mark 3.

Mark 3:28-30

28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" — 30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."
NASU

Once they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, they were condemned because they no longer could be forgiven. Therefor Jesus started speaking in parables so he could explain the truth to those who believed and hide the truth from those who had blasphemed.

Grace to you,

Mark

crossnote
Feb 3rd 2010, 10:22 PM
To piggyback on Chad's scripture references...

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat 11:25)

Ryan R
Feb 3rd 2010, 11:34 PM
Even the disciples have trouble understanding the parables; Jesus consistently must later explain the parables' meaning to them.

How were the common people expected to make the important connections if not even the disciples were able to do so?

If the deal is that people simply didn't understand because they didn't have enough faith, there must have been virtually no one who effectively received Jesus's messages- it seems unlikely that even a moderate amount of the crowds would have better faith than the disciples, who didn't understand.

Like the others are saying, they didn't understand because the mysteries of God are spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14), but they came to understand. Jesus frequently mentions "He who has ears to hear..."

But putting an abstract concept into a physical metaphor is a good way to simplify it.

Beckrl
Feb 4th 2010, 12:45 AM
What I would say it is liken to us as reading those parables and not understanding them, then God's Spirit then reveals the message unto us.
And that light comes on.:idea:

Many that heard Jesus speak heard him tell them about the kingdom of heaven [God] and compare an earthly concept to a heavenly spiritual concept. They would all relate to the earthly [every day ideas] and understand completely, but couldn't understand the spiritual side of the parable until it was revealed by the Spirit. Even the disciples had trouble because they were still trying to understand the parable by their earthly side of knowledge.

Servant89
Feb 4th 2010, 01:23 AM
The Jews had blasphemed the Holy Spirit in Mat 9:34 and for the second time in Mat 12:24. That triggered his change in attitude in Mat 13. At the mouth of 2 witnesses let everything be established.

Shalom

Brother Mark
Feb 4th 2010, 01:28 AM
The Jews had blasphemed the Holy Spirit in Mat 9:34 and for the second time in Mat 12:24. That triggered his change in attitude in Mat 13. At the mouth of 2 witnesses let everything be established.

Shalom

I agree with this post. Thanks.

nzyr
Feb 4th 2010, 02:09 AM
So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them? Not necessarily.
It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. Sometimes Jesus explained them to his disciples.

And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.
Can anyone shed some light on this? The parables are a way of teaching God's truth in a way that humans can understand. Sometimes you have to let the Holy Spirit show you what they mean.

Do you have any parables in mind that you would like some of the people here to help you understand?

Petey
Feb 5th 2010, 03:24 AM
(Mat 13:13 NIV) This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Why would Jesus want to confuse the common people further? I can understand that He would have been fed up with the Pharisees and others like them, but if He speaks in parables to to the whole crowd then many other simple "common people" are getting punished/disadvantaged in a sense for the Pharisee's errors.

I thought that before the crucifixion, Jesus meant to spread His word and get people more "in sync" with what God really wanted. It seems like deliberately speaking to confuse them would accomplish the exact opposite. I just can't seem to make sense of this...

Sirus
Feb 5th 2010, 05:53 AM
Because the mystery of God's will revealed is that Christ would be crucified that both Jew and Gentile could believe. You say common people, God says 'for the common good'. This did not mean the 'common people' could not believe into the kingdom of God, because they did, it meant once He offered the earthly kingdom and was rejected by the leaders of Israel He would not establish His earthly kingdom....yet, be crucified and bring in the Gentiles by faith as well.

Joh 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

Servant89
Feb 5th 2010, 09:50 AM
(Mat 13:13 NIV) This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Why would Jesus want to confuse the common people further? I can understand that He would have been fed up with the Pharisees and others like them, but if He speaks in parables to to the whole crowd then many other simple "common people" are getting punished/disadvantaged in a sense for the Pharisee's errors.

I thought that before the crucifixion, Jesus meant to spread His word and get people more "in sync" with what God really wanted. It seems like deliberately speaking to confuse them would accomplish the exact opposite. I just can't seem to make sense of this...

Jn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is not about IQ, it is all about surrender.

Lk 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

Lk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

God reveals his message to those that know his word. And parables are an excellent way of filtering his sheep from the goats. When Jesus cried out on the cross, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" he was quoting Psalm 22 which is a description of the cross, no one got the point. If we draw near to him, he wlll draw near to us an open our understanding of Scripture.

Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Shalom

Butch5
Feb 5th 2010, 02:04 PM
"To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears."

So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them? It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. How would any one of the common people in the crowds then understood the parables?

And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Hi Petey,

NO one could really understand the Parables until Jesus explained them even the apostles. Jesus said,


John 6:44-45 ( KJV )
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those who were drawn were taught of God we see this in Peter,

Matthew 16:17 ( KJV )
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus had come to reveal the hearts of the Jewish people

Luke 2:31-35 ( KJV )
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

All of the took place to set the scene for the resurrection. It was necessary that the Jews reject Christ so that the resurrection could take place. If the Jews had understood Jesus parables they would not have crucified Him.


1 Corinthians 2:6-8 ( KJV )
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Jesus had explained the parables for everyone to understand, they would not have crucified Him as Paul states. One reason for them not to understand the parables was to reveal what was in their hearts. Some rejected Jesus and some came to Him to seek further understanding.

Does this help ?

Petey
Feb 5th 2010, 02:13 PM
So, to see if I've got this right:

From what I can tell, most of you seem to hold that people who came genuinely wanting to understand the parables would understand them at some point (whether at that time or in the future, after the crucifixion). At the same time, those who came with "calloused hearts" would take no meaning from the parables and would harden their hearts further; this possibly helped facilitate Jesus's' crucifixion. The parables served to separate those who were actually interested from those who came to persecute.

Is this a somewhat accurate summary?

Butch5
Feb 5th 2010, 02:58 PM
So, to see if I've got this right:

From what I can tell, most of you seem to hold that people who came genuinely wanting to understand the parables would understand them at some point (whether at that time or in the future, after the crucifixion). At the same time, those who came with "calloused hearts" would take no meaning from the parables and would harden their hearts further; this possibly helped facilitate Jesus's' crucifixion. The parables served to separate those who were actually interested from those who came to persecute.

Is this a somewhat accurate summary?

That's pretty much how I understand it. There were those who were drawn by God, ie. the disciples. These were given understanding as Jesus expalined the parables. Matthew adds a prophetic statement in his account.


Matthew 13:11-17 ( KJV )
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 03:03 PM
So, to see if I've got this right:

From what I can tell, most of you seem to hold that people who came genuinely wanting to understand the parables would understand them at some point (whether at that time or in the future, after the crucifixion). At the same time, those who came with "calloused hearts" would take no meaning from the parables and would harden their hearts further; this possibly helped facilitate Jesus's' crucifixion. The parables served to separate those who were actually interested from those who came to persecute.

Is this a somewhat accurate summary?

I don't think it had to do with the crucifiction and here's why.

Luke 20:9-17

9 And He began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time. 10 "At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him some of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 "And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed. 12 "And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out. 13 "The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.' 14 "But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, 'This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.' 15 "So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 "He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others." When they heard it, they said, "May it never be!" 17 But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written:

'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone'?
NASU

Jesus spoke in parables to hide the truth from those who blasphemed. But for those that came after Christ for answers, they got an explanation and understanding.

Here's another passage...

John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
NASU

For those that think they know and are proud and arrogant, Jesus blinds them like he did the blasphemers. But for those that admit their blindness, he gives sight too. When we come to Christ in humility he gives us grace. When we come to him in arrogance, he resists us and blinds us.

Petey
Feb 5th 2010, 05:59 PM
John 9:39-41
39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.
NASU

For those that think they know and are proud and arrogant, Jesus blinds them like he did the blasphemers. But for those that admit their blindness, he gives sight too. When we come to Christ in humility he gives us grace. When we come to him in arrogance, he resists us and blinds us.

Thanks- that was very helpful

Brother Mark
Feb 5th 2010, 06:15 PM
Thanks- that was very helpful

You're welcome. Here's another appropriate verse.

James 4:6-8
6 But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." 7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
NASU

God actively resists the proud. But for the humble, they get grace.

ThyWordIsTruth
Feb 5th 2010, 07:15 PM
Hi Petey,
Good questions.


"To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears."

So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them? It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. How would any one of the common people in the crowds then understood the parables?

Yes, anyone with a hunger to understand will be granted understanding. The disciples did not understand but they were taught by Jesus. We are taught by the Holy Spirit. The common people in the crowds at that time were not given understanding because of the temporary hardening that God has placed on them in order that the crucifixion might take place.

After the parable of the sower in which Jesus explained the parable to his disciples, he tells them a few other parables to teach them how to listen in order to get more light. He is teaching them (and us) the secret to getting understanding of Scriptures.

1) Listening Obediently
Mar 4:21 And he said to them, "Is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket, or under a bed, and not on a stand?
Mar 4:22 For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light.
Mar 4:23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

The teachings in these verses is to Listen Obediently. The light of God's word is not for us to listen to, and then put under a basket, under a bed or hidden in some other ways. This is an anlogy to hearing the Word of God and then doing nothing about it, and its line does not shine forth in the believer's life. So it is akin to taking a light (the word of God) and hiding it under a basket or a bed.

Rather it is to be put on a stand, meaning the light (God's word) is to be obeyed and lived out so that the light may shine forth through the life of the believers so everyone can see.

2) Listening appreciatively
Mar 4:24 And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you.
Mar 4:25 For to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

Here Jesus tells them to pay attention to what they hear. To give ear and pay close attention to God's words. If we pay close attention to them, God will grant us more understanding of his word.

If however we treat it with disdain or disregard, even what understanding we previously had will be taken away.

3) Listening dependently
Mar 4:26 And he said, "The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground.
Mar 4:27 He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows; he knows not how.
Mar 4:28 The earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear.
Mar 4:29 But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come."

We depend on God to work his fruit in us through his word. Here Jesus likens the word of God to a man scattering seed on the ground. Then he goes and sleeps, and by day the seed sprouts and grows, and he doesn't understand how it does so. So we have to depend on God for growth in our understanding, although we too have to work and study. However we depend on God to give us illumination and understanding, and for his word to bear fruit in our lives.

4) Listening confidently
Mar 4:30 And he said, "With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it?
Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth,
Mar 4:32 yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and puts out large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade."

This parable teaches us that the Word of God may seem to have very small beginnings like the mustard seed, but with time it will grow to be large and large enough that even birds will come and find refuge in it.


And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.
Can anyone shed some light on this?

He did not mean for them to understand now because of the temporariy hardening till he was crucified, but his spoken words will be remembered by those whom he spoke to, and those that heard will bring it into recollection when the events in history panned out. Many of these Jews who heard him later repented and believed in him at Pentecost.

If he had just written them in a book, no one would read them. However, having preached them and making them heard, the Holy Spirit can use those words and bring it to remembrance to convict unbelievers or to teach believers.

BroRog
Feb 6th 2010, 12:10 AM
"To those with a genuine hunger for God, the parable is both an effective and memorable vehicle for the conveyance of divine truths. Our Lord’s parables contain great volumes of truth in very few words—and His parables, rich in imagery, are not easily forgotten. So, then, the parable is a blessing to those with willing ears."

So are we to assume that anyone who wanted to understand the parables would understand them? It seems like the disciples would have had a "genuine hunger for God", yet they did not understand the parables. How would any one of the common people in the crowds then understood the parables?

And why on earth would Jesus waste His breath speaking to these crowds if He meant for them not to understand? If the goal was for later generations (after the crucifixion) to understand, he could have simply written down these things for posterity rather than speaking them to the people of that time.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Contrary to the commentary from (From gotquestions.org), Jesus spoke in parables to be understood. He spoke to them with parables because he could not speak to them directly.




gotquestions.org: Here Matthew seems to suggest that their own unbelief is the cause of their spiritual blindness. On the contrary, spiritual blindness is the cause, not the effect of unbelief. Parables are an indirect form of communication, which force those who hear them to decode, decipher, or interpret the story to find the meaning. Jesus' parables have an objective meaning that rests behind his analogies. And we learn from other passages of scripture that even unbelievers are able to get the point.



When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. Matthew 21:45The chief priests and the Pharisees fall into the category of those who are dull of hearing and yet, because Jesus spoke in parables, they understood that Jesus was speaking about them. Jesus spoke in parables, not to hide his teaching, but to make himself understood to those who were unable or unwilling to hear the truth spoken plainly and directly.

Naphal
Feb 6th 2010, 09:10 AM
Did God speak through and inspire the writers of the Talmud and is it the true word of God as much as the bible is?





Parables and summaries are very common in both ancient and modern Judaism.

Here are some interesting parallels between Jesus' parables and rabbinic parables that most Pharisees adhered to....

A parable -
To whom can Rabbi Bun bar Rabbi Hiyya be compared? To a king who hired many workers. But there was one worker more efficient in his work than others. What did the king do? . . . Evening arrived and the workers came to collect their pay. The king gave the more efficient worker the same wage as he gave them. The other workers became boisterous and said, “We worked all day long, but this one worked only two hours, but you gave him the same wage!” The king said to them, “This one did more work in two hours than the rest of you did working all day long.” Thus, Rabbu Bun, who labored as a student of the Torah only twenty-eight years became as remarkable as a sage who had studied for a hundred years. (Jerusalem Talmud, Berakhot 2:8

For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. (Matthew 20:1-16

__________________________________________

Jesus -
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.- Matthew 6:7

Pharisees -
If one draws out his prayer and expects therefore its fulfilment, he will in the end suffer vexation of heart, as it says, Hope deferred maketh the heart sick. - Talmud: Berachot 55a

__________________________________________

Jesus -
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; - Matthew 5:43

Pharisees -
They who are insulted but insult not back; who hear themselves reproached but answer not; who serve out of love and rejoice in their affliction--of them it is written in Scripture: They that love God are as the going forth of the sun in its might. - Talmud: Yoma 23a, Gitin 36b, Shabat 88b

__________________________________________

Jesus -
The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27

Pharisees -
Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b

__________________________________________

Jesus -
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. - Matthew 25:45

Pharisees -
One who betrays his fellow, it is as if he has betrayed God. - Tosefta Sh'vuot, ch. 3

__________________________________________

Jesus -
Insulting someone is like murder.- Matthew 5:21-22

Pharisees -
He who publicly shames his neighbour is as though he shed blood.- Talmud: Bava Mezia 58b

__________________________________________

Jesus -
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Matthew 5:28

Pharisees -
One who gazes lustfully upon the small finger of a married woman, it is as if he has committed adultery with her.- Kallah, Ch. 1

__________________________________________

Jesus -
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. - Matthew 5:45

Pharisees -
Rabbi Abbahu said: The day when rain fails is greater than [the day of] the Revival of the Dead,for the Revival of the Dead is for the righteous only whereas rain is both for the righteous and for the wicked - Talmud: Taanit 7a

__________________________________________

Jesus -
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 6:1

Pharisees -
In the case of the recital of the Shema’, since everybody else recites, and he also recites, it does not look like showing off on his part; but in the case of the month of Ab, since everybody else does work and he does no work, it looks like showing off.- Talmud: Berachot 17b

__________________________________________

Do not worry about where your food will come from tomorrow, or your drink. - Matthew 6:25-31

Rabbi Eliezer the Great declares: Whoever has a piece of bread in his basket and Says. ‘What shall I eat tomorrow?’ belongs only to them who are little in faith. - Talmud: Sotah 48b

__________________________________________

Jesus -
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. - Matthew 5:29-30

Pharisees -
Come and hear what was taught: Rabbi Tarfon said, ‘If his hand touched the membrum let his hand be cut off upon his belly’. ‘But’, they said to him, ‘would not his belly be split’? ‘It is preferable’, he replied, ‘that his belly shall be split rather than that he should go down into the pit of destruction’. - Talmud: Niddah 13b
__________________________________________

Jesus -
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. - Matthew 23:8

Pharisees -
Shemaiah used to say: love work, hate acting the superior, and do not bring thyself to the knowledge of the ruling authority. - Mishnah: Avot 1:10
__________________________________________

Sirus
Feb 6th 2010, 06:02 PM
So, to see if I've got this right:

From what I can tell, most of you seem to hold that people who came genuinely wanting to understand the parables would understand them at some point (whether at that time or in the future, after the crucifixion).Just because someone wants to understand does not mean they ever will. We've seen on this forum disagreement about what things in the parables mean, despite the fact Jesus defined what they mean.


At the same time, those who came with "calloused hearts" would take no meaning from the parables and would harden their hearts further; this possibly helped facilitate Jesus's' crucifixion. The parables served to separate those who were actually interested from those who came to persecute.

Is this a somewhat accurate summary?As I said, Jesus did not start off speaking in parables.
He did so after the leaders rejected Him on their own because of their unbelief. The separating already occurred through belief/unbelief, and as I also pointed out.........

"There were times the pharisees understood parables were about them and were made angry by them -Luk 20:13-19. So we can't say no one understood any of them or that it takes some special spiritual revelation from the Father. That simply is not always the case."
...He told an easy to understand parable that a child could understand and in fact everyone did understand......

Luk 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable
.............
Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
...and it angered the exposed leaders that already "sought to destroy Him".

Luk 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,
Do not try to understand the parable in Luke 20 without chapter 19!!!!
The parable in Luke 20 was not to hide some mystery of the kingdom from anyone.
It was to say;
1) I know the leaders want to kill me
2) I know the leaders will kill me

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luk 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;
Luk 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Luk 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,
There is no parable that initially caused the leaders to not believe or want to kill Jesus. They did that on their own because of the truth Jesus claimed before He spoke in parables. However, it cannot be denied that when Jesus exposed the leaders plan to kill Him in the Luke 20 parable, it angered them to want to kill Him that "same hour".
Luk 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable...........
.......
Luk 20:16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Luk 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Sirus
Feb 6th 2010, 06:07 PM
There were those who were drawn by God, ie. the disciples.Anyone that believed in the Son was drawn by the Father. The gospel is how the Father draws. Still true.

watchinginawe
Feb 6th 2010, 09:37 PM
Why does Jesus speak in parables? Even the disciples have trouble understanding the parables; Jesus consistently must later explain the parables' meaning to them. I like the present tense of your question. Slug1's comments bring out that point very well.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

It seems that much of the responses in the thread have identified dependance as a reason. I like that thought. Our own understanding leaves us short of the meaning Jesus intends. Only upon our further investigation and clarification by God Himself do we approach the meaning. Consider:

Luke 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

11 Now the parable is this: ...

The disciples could have kept their ignorance in silence, but instead they think to inquire for the meaning from Jesus. We do well to do likewise even today. It is given to us to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God! The nature of the parables Jesus teaches in sets them apart from the discernment of this world. That is because they don't speak to the things of this world. For example, consider what Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

God Bless!

goykodesh
Feb 8th 2010, 11:49 PM
Did God speak through and inspire the writers of the Talmud and is it the true word of God as much as the bible is?

Inspired people write lots of things, including portions of the Talmud, but the Bible is God-breathed, and every word, work, phrase, teaching and nuace is infallible. Not so with the Talmud or any human effort. But consider that most people who love God get a few things right - and that the Jews were raised up by God long before the rest of us (historically speaking) came to know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob........anyway, I was merely pointing out that parables are very common in Jewish tradition.

Naphal
Feb 9th 2010, 06:39 AM
Inspired people write lots of things, including portions of the Talmud, but the Bible is God-breathed, and every word, work, phrase, teaching and nuace is infallible. Not so with the Talmud or any human effort.

I suppose "inspired people" wrote parts of the Koran too and I am sure parables are just as commonly used. I just think it might give the wrong impression to other Christians. We wouldn't want to confuse anyone into thinking any portions of the Talmud are on an equal level with scripture, no matter how similar the wordings are.



But consider that most people who love God get a few things right - and that the Jews were raised up by God long before the rest of us (historically speaking) came to know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But what happens if one professes love for God but not for Jesus who is also God?

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.





.......anyway, I was merely pointing out that parables are very common in Jewish tradition.

Sure, I understand. Perhaps some type of warning is in order so new Christians understand what the Talmud is and that it does not contain God's word.

Bruthaman
Feb 9th 2010, 08:37 AM
Why did Jesus speak in parables, well, that is very simple. For example, for me as an engineering student, if I talked to you about high level mathematics which you have no knowledge of, it would be as effective if I was talking to a brick wall. The same way mathematicians, physicists, and engineers have to explain concepts in common knowledge to normal individuals is the same reason Jesus spoke the way he did using parables to get concepts across to the people. For example, if a doctor diagnosis someone with a cold then they understand what that means, however, if he says you have Human Rhinovirus, you might think you were going to transform into a rhinoceros or something, lol.

Naphal
Feb 9th 2010, 08:53 AM
Why did Jesus speak in parables, well, that is very simple. For example, for me as an engineering student, if I talked to you about high level mathematics which you have no knowledge of, it would be as effective if I was talking to a brick wall. The same way mathematicians, physicists, and engineers have to explain concepts in common knowledge to normal individuals is the same reason Jesus spoke the way he did using parables to get concepts across to the people. For example, if a doctor diagnosis someone with a cold then they understand what that means, however, if he says you have Human Rhinovirus, you might think you were going to transform into a rhinoceros or something, lol.

I don't think Jesus' use of parable was used in the sense you describe. You describe using parables to make a complicated issue easier for someone to understand while Jesus used parables so people could not understand what he meant. He used simple concepts to hide the more complex ones.


Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

He explained what the parables meant only to his disciples, in secret so the general public would not understand what the parables meant.

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