In what way will the new covenant spoken of in Jer. 31:31-34 affect the covenant cut at Sinai? Thanks!

What does He mean, "not according to the covenant I made with their fathers"?

God has made several covenants with man. There was Noah, there was Abraham, there was Sinai, there was Joshua... in each case the new covenant did not render the previous one obsolete. What will this new covenant have? "For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts," Who will be in this covenant? "I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant."

You may be surprised, but I 100% agree with you. A teacher I heard spoke about how both the covenant made on Sinai and the new covenant that Jeremiah prophesies of concern the same issues: sacrifice and instruction. That's why I was wondering how the new affected the first.

I like it when we agree.

In what way will the new covenant spoken of in Jer. 31:31-34 affect the covenant cut at Sinai? Thanks!
The affect is this - the “New Covenant” has rendered the “Old Covenant” forever obsolete. Jesus Christ, the Mediator of the new covenant came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. ~ Hebrews 8:13

He already knows what the Christian perspective is. He wanted to know the Jewish perspective.

He already knows what the Christian perspective is.
But does he understand the "Christian perspective"?

What does "Fulfill the law" mean?

What does "Fulfill the law" mean?
Fulfill - to bring to an end; complete.The Law of Moses was our "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" but "after faith has come we are no longer under the schoolmaster" (Gal_3). Jesus fulfilled the prophecies found in the law regarding Himself…
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luk 24:44 KJV)Jesus also fulfilled the legal requirements of the Law of Moses – requirements that called for perfect obedience.Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-18, AKJV)

[Jesus also fulfilled the legal requirements of the Law of Moses – requirements that called for perfect obedience.
How could he? The law in entirety doesn't even apply to any one person.

The law in entirety doesn't even apply to any one person.
The point remains - the law was fulfilled in its entirety by one man - Jesus Christ and many will be made righteous by the sacrifice of that same Person...
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:17-19 ESV)

The point remains - the law was fulfilled in its entirety by one man -
How? All of the law doesn't even apply to men.

Fulfill - to bring to an end; complete.
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
So then, Jesus put an end to righteousness?

Fulfil -G4137 πληρόω plēroō Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
So then, Jesus put an end to righteousness?

You may need to expand on your logic Kahtar - righteousness was never annulled and nailed to the cross of Christ because it had been rendered obsolete. The Mosaical system in its entirety was rendered obsolete and nailed to the cross.
Colossians 2:14 (King James Version)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...

You may need to expand on your logic Kahtar - righteousness was never annulled and nailed to the cross of Christ because it had been rendered obsolete. The Mosaical system in its entirety was rendered obsolete and nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:14 (King James Version)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross...

I see. So the word 'fulfil' means one thing in one place, and something else in another. Perhaps you can expand your logic a bit. Or rather expound upon it a bit.
Do you think the 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us' is the law of Moses? Or the covenant of Moses? Or something else?

God has made several covenants with man. There was Noah, there was Abraham, there was Sinai, there was Joshua... in each case the new covenant did not render the previous one obsolete. What will this new covenant have? "For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts," Who will be in this covenant? "I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant."

How is this covenant "not like" the covenant he made with their fathers?

How is this covenant "not like" the covenant he made with their fathers?

"I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts".

"I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts".Yes. How will this look in terms of a national commitment? Do you forsee a time when Moses will be the law of the land in Israel?

Yes. How will this look in terms of a national commitment? Do you forsee a time when Moses will be the law of the land in Israel?

Yes indeed I do.

So the word 'fulfil' means one thing in one place, and something else in another. Perhaps you can expand your logic a bit. Or rather expound upon it a bit.

There is not much need to “expound upon” anything in the context of the questions asked. The question put to me was, “What does "Fulfill the law” mean?” Unless you misunderstand the words of Jesus or fail to understand the meaning of “fulfill” the Bible is self-explanatory on this matter. Jesus came to fulfill the “Law and the Prophets”, i.e., the "Old Testament” and this He did when He cried out on the cross; “It is finished!” Do you think Jesus fulfill the “Law and the Prophets”?


Do you think the 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us' is the law of Moses? Or the covenant of Moses? Or something else?


It is a reference to the Mosaical law in its entirety – a law that was a "yoke" to the Jews and the “dividing-wall” to the Gentiles. This wall that divides was “broken down” by the work of Christ on the cross and taken out of the way. In the body of Christ both Jew and Gentile are one in the faith. Do you think Christians live under the Mosaical law? Do you think Jesus some how failed to remove the “dividing-wall” between Jew and Gentile?
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility ~ Eph 2:14
So then, Jesus put an end to righteousness?

Is that what you really think He did? If you do then it would be your ‘logic’ that needs explaining.

Yes indeed I do.
But the Law of Moses with its animal sacrifices has been rendered eternally redundant by the perfect "once-for-all-time" sacrifice of Jesus Christ...
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Heb 9:11-14 ESV)

There is not much need to “expound upon” anything in the context of the questions asked. The question put to me was, “What does "Fulfill the law” mean?” Unless you misunderstand the words of Jesus or fail to understand the meaning of “fulfill” the Bible is self-explanatory on this matter. Jesus came to fulfill the “Law and the Prophets”, i.e., the "Old Testament” and this He did when He cried out on the cross; “It is finished!” Do you think Jesus fulfill the “Law and the Prophets”?


In this case, I don't understand what "Fulfill the Law" means and saying it means to fulfill the law was a really poor answer.

I also know the definition of the word "Fulfill". Thanks.

In this case, I don't understand what "Fulfill the Law" means and saying it means to fulfill the law was a really poor answer.

I also know the definition of the word "Fulfill". Thanks.

Actually, I said more than it "means to fulfill the law" - I suspect your either overlooked what I posted or your comprehension is off a bit today. Again – it is self-explanatory – to "fulfill" something is to complete it and bring it to an end. Jesus came to fulfill the "law and the prophets" and as such it has been completed and it ended in the first century. The term “the law and the prophets” means the Mosaical system in its entirety including the Decalogue presented to Moses at Sinai. To annul a law (as in the Law of Moses) means to make it void; to cancel its validity; to abolish it as a binding law.

When Jesus died on the cross He was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances" (Mosaical Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way (i.e., He annulled it), it was nailed to His cross. The Law of Moses is forever obsolete. Christians live and die under the law of Christ as presented in the "new covenant". The "old covenant" was fulfilled and annulled - it "waxed way" no longer needed.
In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.
(Heb 8:13 ASV)What part of this do you still not comprehend? I will be more than happy to go into more detail. Do you believe that Jesus failed to fulfill the "law and the prophets"? Do you think the Law of Moses is still binding on Christians today or was it annulled at the cross per what is recorded in Holy Writ?

When Jesus died on the cross He was "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances" (Mosaical Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the wayPaul wasn't talking about the Mosaic Law. He was talking about the ordiance that kept the Gentiles from crossing beyond the partition wall.

Paul wasn't talking about the Mosaic Law. He was talking about the ordiance that kept the Gentiles from crossing beyond the partition wall.
I will respectfully disagree Rog - "the handwriting" is clearly a reference to the entire Mosaic law including the Decalogue. What do you mean by the "ordinance that kept the Gentiles from crossing beyond the partition wall"?
Col 2:14
the handwriting of ordinances…“The handwriting” (alluding to the Decalogue, the representative of the law, written by the hand of God) is the whole law, the obligatory bond, under which all lay… ~ The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians Commentary by A. R. Faussett

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting - …the meaning here is, that the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law are abolished, and that its necessity is superseded by the death of Christ. ~ Albert Barnes

I will respectfully disagree Rog - "the handwriting" is clearly a reference to the entire Mosaic law including the Decalogue. What do you mean by the "ordinance that kept the Gentiles from crossing beyond the partition wall"?
Col 2:14
the handwriting of ordinances…“The handwriting” (alluding to the Decalogue, the representative of the law, written by the hand of God) is the whole law, the obligatory bond, under which all lay… ~ The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians Commentary by A. R. Faussett

Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting - …the meaning here is, that the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law are abolished, and that its necessity is superseded by the death of Christ. ~ Albert BarnesThe passage comes from the book of Ephesians in which Paul says we gained access to God via the Holy Spirit. Paul uses the Temple grounds as a metaphor for how we Gentiles were separated from God. We were physically separated from access to the temple due to a wall that demarcated the court of the Gentiles from the area in which only Jews were allowed to enter. In the following passage, Paul calls this "the dividing wall."



For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16 The particular ordinance in view is the decree that Gentiles should not enter beyond the wall upon pain of death. Jesus didn't literally break down a wall, or cancel the ordinance, but his death provided a way for both Jews and Gentiles to find reconciliation with God and gain access to God via the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Romans, Paul asserts that Christ is the end of the Law.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4
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But here the word "end" doesn't mean "halt" or "cease". It means "goal" or "destination." This resonates with his earlier statement in chapter 3 where he makes a point about those who were currently keeping Moses saying, " . . .we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God . . ." No one who took the law seriously, loved God, tried to keep the covenant would "open" the mouth before God. Those who were actually keeping the law knew they couldn't defend themselves in the presence of a holy God. Those who valued righteousness were looking for the righteous Messiah, and the law points to the Messiah and the need for a savior.

But the Law of Moses with its animal sacrifices has been rendered eternally redundant by the perfect "once-for-all-time" sacrifice of Jesus Christ..
Only if you believe that it has.

Mind you, Ezekiel prophesized a rebuilt Temple with animal sacrifice.

The passage comes from the book of Ephesians in which Paul says we gained access to God via the Holy Spirit. Paul uses the Temple grounds as a metaphor for how we Gentiles were separated from God. We were physically separated from access to the temple due to a wall that demarcated the court of the Gentiles from the area in which only Jews were allowed to enter. In the following passage, Paul calls this "the dividing wall."


Well Rog you post much but you have not identified what "the Law of commandments contained in ordinances" that Christ abolished is. The quote provided from Barnes is hard to miss and teaches the truth in this matter - the "Law" referred to is "the burdensome requirements of the Mosaic law are abolished, and that its necessity is superseded by the death of Christ..." Do you think Christians are still bound by the Mosaic Law or was it annulled at the cross of Christ?

Only if you believe that it has.

Mind you, Ezekiel prophesized a rebuilt Temple with animal sacrifice.
Only if one forces a literal interpretation to all of what Ezekiel prophesied in his apocalyptic vision. The truth is God will never again require a temple "built with hands" and God will never again require animal sacrifice to atone for sins after the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Heb 9)

Only if one forces a literal interpretation to all of what Ezekiel prophesied in his apocalyptic vision. That's the first time I've ever heard of a literal interpretation being "forced".

I just read the words on the page. Would God say and not do, speak and not fulfill? Or is He a liar?


The truth is God will never again require a temple "built with hands" and God will never again require animal sacrifice to atone for sins after the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.This is an article of faith. It is not a fact.

Only if one forces a literal interpretation to all of what Ezekiel prophesied in his apocalyptic vision. The truth is God will never again require a temple "built with hands" and God will never again require animal sacrifice to atone for sins after the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Heb 9)

It may be that sacrifices don't have any meanng anymore, but it doesn't mean that sacrifices will not happen again... Christians may believe that sacrifices are a waste of time, but what about the Jews? How do they get pardon for their sins?

Christians may believe that sacrifices are a waste of time, but what about the Jews? How do they get pardon for their sins?
Allow me to answer for him: "belief in Jesus's sacrifice". You don't believe, no pardon.

Allow me to answer for him: "belief in Jesus's sacrifice". You don't believe, no pardon.

Are you saying that all Jews that do not believe in Jesus, wil not go to heaven?

Are you saying that all Jews that do not believe in Jesus, wil not go to heaven?

I'm not saying it. But probably 99% of Christian will.

I'm not saying it. But probably 99% of Christian will.

:( I was actualy hoping jou would give me a Jew's perspective on this. This is serious stuff, not
something I take lightly... What do modern Jews do to pardon them from their sins?

What do modern Jews do to pardon them from their sins?
Repentance, prayer, good deeds... just like it says in the bible.

Repentance and prayer... I can agree to that, only to a degree. Good deeds will not get any man into heaven.

What is your opinion on temple sacrifices? Do you want to see that happening again? Isn't that part of cleaning Jews of their sins? Sending sin away on a scapegoat?

Repentance and prayer... I can agree to that, only to a degree. Good deeds will not get any man into heaven.Well, you asked for a Jew's persective so I gave it. Yes we believe good deeds will get one into heaven.


What is your opinion on temple sacrifices? Do you want to see that happening again? Isn't that part of cleaning Jews of their sins? Sending sin away on a scapegoat?
It is one way of cleaning sin, yes. Not the only way though.

In the messianic era the temple will be rebuilt and there will once again be sacrifice. So said Ezekiel.

Thank you for answering Fenris, sorry if I jump the gun a bit :)

The main reason some Christians like myself believe that good deeds will not get you into heaven, is because good deeds are supposed to be done anyway... not just to get into heaven. I know of too many people that rely too much on this. Always doing good, so the world can see how good they are, but as soon as no one is looking.... different story.

I always thought that sacrifice was a very importand part of being Jew, that all Jews are (according to their believes) sinning the last 2000 plus years because their isn't any sacrifices anymore. Am I wrong? From a Christians point of few Jews do not comit sin, Because Jesus died for all of us. But what if you do not believe in the ultimate Sacrifice, and the temple sacrifice isn't happening? Good thing for future generation Jews with the new temple, but what about the Jews that lived in the last 2000 years...

This is really interesting....

Thank you for answering Fenris, sorry if I jump the gun a bit :)That's ok.


The main reason some Christians like myself believe that good deeds will not get you into heaven, is because good deeds are supposed to be done anyway... not just to get into heaven. I know of too many people that rely too much on this. Always doing good, so the world can see how good they are, but as soon as no one is looking.... different story.Well, one isn't supposed to do the right thing to get a reward. They're supposed to do it because it's God's will. The Jewish bible doesn't mention the afterlife, perhaps for that very reason.


I always thought that sacrifice was a very importand part of being Jew, that all Jews are (according to their believes) sinning the last 2000 plus years because their isn't any sacrifices anymore. Am I wrong?
You are wrong. As I said, we believe that sacrifice is one method for atonement but certainly not the only one.

As I said, we believe that sacrifice is one method for atonement but certainly not the only one.Do you see a distinction between national atonement and personal atonement. Does the Hebrew Bible teach this distinction in your view?

Do you see a distinction between national atonement and personal atonement. Does the Hebrew Bible teach this distinction in your view?

Yes, most certainly. Sin has personal consequences and national consequences. But I don't think there's an 'act' of national atonement. There is merely the atonement of many individuals who make up the nation.

Repentance, prayer, good deeds... just like it says in the bible.What good deeds can you do to have your sins forgiven?


Yes we believe good deeds will get one into heaven.What good deeds do you think one needs to do to get into heaven and how many times or how often does one need to do them in order to get to heaven?

What good deeds can you do to have your sins forgiven?I dunno, acts of mercy? Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged...


How many good deeds do you think one needs to do to get into heaven? That's not a good question, By definition, God must reward every good deed. But rather, think of it like this: The more good one does, the closer they get to God in the afterlife.


What good deeds do you think one needs to do to get into heaven and how many times or how often?
There's a rather extensive list in the bible. It says when and how and such...

That's ok.

Well, one isn't supposed to do the right thing to get a reward. They're supposed to do it because it's God's will. The Jewish bible doesn't mention the afterlife, perhaps for that very reason.The following is not part of the Jewish Bible?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Job 19
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

I dunno, acts of mercy? Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged...Such as? And would it require one act of mercy to get to be forgiven or several?


That's not a good questionWhy? Shouldn't you be able to be specific about what is necessary to get to heaven?


By definition, God must reward every good deed. But rather, think of it like this: The more good one does, the closer they get to God in the afterlife. So, how much good does one need to do to get to God in the afterlife? You can't say this isn't a good question. This is something you should be able to answer.


There's a rather extensive list in the bible. It says when and how and such...Why don't you share it with me. I don't mind reading long lists.

The following is not part of the Jewish Bible?

Yes yes and Ezekiel has the valley of the dried bones. But these are all allusions without specificity and come quite late in the bible.

Yes yes and Ezekiel has the valley of the dried bones. But these are all allusions without specificity and come quite late in the bible.Is there something less valid about what comes later in the Bible compared to what comes earlier?

Such as? And would it require one act of mercy to get to be forgiven or several?My my you're quite legalistic. Or you expect me to be. Anyway, God will send a sinner opportunities to behave mercifully. Should he take advantage and do the right thing, so be it.


Why? Shouldn't you be able to be specific about what is necessary to get to heaven?I carry out God's will to the best of my ability and I trust God for whatever comes after this life.


So, how much good does one need to do to get to God in the afterlife? As much as possible. Obviously.


You can't say this isn't a good question. This is something you should be able to answer.What am I, on the witness stand or something?


Why don't you share it with me. I don't mind reading long lists.I assume you've read the bible...am I mistaken?

Is there something less valid about what comes later in the Bible compared to what comes earlier?
Not less valid. But the Jewish focus is on this world. A few stray lines in the bible doesn't change that.

My my you're quite legalistic.That is completely untrue. I don't believe that my own good deeds or following the works of the law can earn someone's way to heaven. To believe that you can earn your way to heaven by doing good deeds is to be legalistic.


I carry out God's will to the best of my ability and I trust God for whatever comes after this life.What if someone carries out God's will 99% to the best of their ability. Would they fall short of heaven? Does it require one to do so 100%?


As much as possible. Obviously. What is possible? How much good can one possibly do and have you done that?


What am I, on the witness stand or something? You don't find it important to be able to back up what you believe and give the reasons for why you believe what you do?


I assume you've read the bible...am I mistaken?Of course, but I'm interested in your perspective so I'm trying to determine where your hope lies and what you believe is necessary in order to get to heaven, but I guess you don't know.

That is completely untrue. I don't believe that my own good deeds or following the works of the law can earn someone's way to heaven. And you're entitled to your beliefs. However, I believe otherwise.


To believe that you can earn your way to heaven by doing good deeds is to be legalistic.I believe in doing what God tells us to do in the bible. I believe He will reward people who do that.


What if someone carries out God's will 99% to the best of their ability. Would they fall short of heaven? Does it require one to do so 100%?You know... I'm not God.


What is possible? How much good can one possibly do and have you done that?If God puts one in a position where they can halp someone, wouldn't you say that it's best to be helpful?


You don't find it important to be able to back up what you believe and give the reasons for why you believe what you do?I'm capable of backing up my beliefs. Whether I should try to do so to someone who interrogates me as though I'm in court is another matter entirely.


Of course, but I'm interested in your perspective so I'm trying to determine where your hope lies and what you believe is necessary in order to get to heavenFunny, that isn't the impression I get at all.

I'm capable of backing up my beliefs. Whether I should try to do so to someone who interrogates me as though I'm in court is another matter entirely.

Funny, that isn't the impression I get at all.Let me start over. I believe you have gotten the wrong impression and I apologize that I came across as if I was putting you on trial. Obviously, I am a Christian and you know full well that it is my desire that you also be a Christian.

But I truly am trying to find out what you think is necessary to get to heaven, since that issue came up, and I figured you'd be able to tell me specifically. But it appears that you aren't really sure, at least not in any specifics? I'm not trying to put you on trial, I'm trying to determine how you see things. I'm not a Jew so I am not certain how exactly you see things, but I am curious to learn about that.

Let me start over. I believe you have gotten the wrong impression and I apologize that I came across as if I was putting you on trial.Ok, let us start over. :)


Obviously, I am a Christian and you know full well that it is my desire that you also be a Christian. Yeah, you and everybody else here. :lol:


But I truly am trying to find out what you think is necessary to get to heaven, since that issue came up, and I figured you'd be able to tell me specifically. But it appears that you aren't really sure, at least not in any specifics? I'm not trying to put you on trial, I'm trying to determine how you see things. I'm not a Jew so I am not certain how exactly you see things, but I am curious to learn about that.Ultimately it is God who makes that determination, and He doesn't tell us how in the bible. He only tells us what we are supposed to do. So that's what I worry about, and leave the afterlife to Him.

What do I know abotu the afterlife? It exists. God weighs our actions and determines what fate lies after this world.

It may be that sacrifices don't have any meanng anymore, but it doesn't mean that sacrifices will not happen again...

The point you appear to miss is from God's perspective animal sacrifices will never be needed or required again. The one-time perfect sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ renders any future animal sacrifice forever redundant.


Christians may believe that sacrifices are a waste of time, but what about the Jews? How do they get pardon for their sins?
Jews receive pardon from their sins the same way Gentiles receive pardon - through the cleaning blood of Christ - there is no other way...
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." ~ Jesus ChristAny religion today or in the future that offers animal sacrifices (including Jews) will be performing an empty ritual that accomplishes nothing. The 'Old Covenant" with its priesthood and sacrificial system has been made forever obsolete and it was annulled by the work of the Christ.

Jews receive pardon from their sins the same way Gentiles receive pardon - through the cleaning blood of Christ - there is no other way...

I propesized this answer in post #33

Any religion today or in the future that offers animal sacrifices (including Jews) will be performing an empty ritual that accomplishes nothing.Just curious. Would you say that all the sacrifices before Christ pointed to Him?

I propesized this answer in post #33
Not much of a prophecy. ;)

Just curious. Would you say that all the sacrifices before Christ pointed to Him?
You would need to qualify what you mean by "all the sacrifices before Christ." Many cultures performed ritualistic sacrifices requiring the blood of animals (some still do). I think you could correctly say that all sacrifices performed in accordance with God's instruction pointed to the sacrifice of Christ.

You would need to qualify what you mean by "all the sacrifices before Christ." Many cultures performed ritualistic sacrifices requiring the blood of animals (some still do). I think you could correctly say that all sacrifices performed in accordance with God's instruction pointed to the sacrifice of Christ.Sorry, I should have qualified that. But you got it.
Do you think it's within the realm of possibility that such sacrifices in the future would do the same thing, ie point back to the sacrifice of Christ?
Kinda like our taking communion does? I assume (not a good thing to do, I know) that you do not view communion as an empty ritual.

Sorry, I should have qualified that. But you got it.
Do you think it's within the realm of possibility that such sacrifices in the future would do the same thing, ie point back to the sacrifice of Christ?
Kinda like our taking communion does? I assume (not a good thing to do, I know) that you do not view communion as an empty ritual.
Well my friend I view the Lord’s Supper for what it was designed to be in the Lord’s church – an ordinance to commemorate the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord until He comes again…”This do in remembrance of me.” To answer your other question – no, I do not think it is within the realm of possibility that animal sacrifices of any flavor will be re-introduced by God for any purpose. Such sacrifices are an affront to the work of Christ on the cross and those who entertain this notion completely misunderstand the once-for-all-time sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf.

The other problem you face if you are of the Dispensational persuasion that forces a literal interpretation of Ezekiel chapters 40-48 is the sacrifices mentioned there are not “commemorative” as you appear to be suggesting – the literal meaning of those sacrifices in the chapters mentioned is clearly to *atone for sins* – a notion that is as un-biblical as one can get when viewed from this side of the cross of Christ. Again – such thinking is an affront to Christ’s work to save our race and should be rejected out of hand.

Questions for you – do you really think God will once again require the shedding of blood from hundreds of thousands of innocent animals in some imagined literal “thousand year reign” with a resurrected Levitical priesthood? Remember under the Levitical system Jesus Christ cannot be our great high priest – wrong tribe. If you interpret Ezekiel 40-48 as literal you must accept this obvious contradiction to everything the New Testament teaches. Tell me the Dispensational error is not your interpretation.

Well my friend I view the Lord’s Supper for what it was designed to be in the Lord’s church – an ordinance to commemorate the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord until He comes again…”This do in remembrance of me.” Yes, as do I.

Such sacrifices are an affront to the work of Christ on the cross and those who entertain this notion completely misunderstand the once-for-all-time sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf.I cannot agree with this statement, although I understand where you are coming from. I know quite a few who in fact DO understand the once for all time sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf who think a 'sacrifice of remembrance' (to put an unqualified name to it) is a possibility.

The other problem you face if you are of the Dispensational persuasion
I'm not a dispensationalist.

that forces a literal interpretation of Ezekiel chapters 40-48 is the sacrifices mentioned there are not “commemorative” as you appear to be suggesting –Nope. Not thinking of that text at all. I was thinking of Zechariah 14, actually.


Questions for you – do you really think God will once again require the shedding of blood from hundreds of thousands of innocent animals in some imagined literal “thousand year reign” with a resurrected Levitical priesthood?No. I do, however believe in the thousand year reign.
I am afraid I'm guilty of hijacking the thread, so I'll leave off here. It has nothing to do with how Fenris views the new covenant. My appologies to the OP.

I cannot agree with this statement, although I understand where you are coming from. I know quite a few who in fact DO understand the once for all time sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf who think a 'sacrifice of remembrance' (to put an unqualified name to it) is a possibility.


Again - I would strongly disagree with any who think animal sacrifices will once again be applicable to God's people under any circumstances - this notion remains a non-biblical idea. Those who promote the error of future animal sacrifices do not understand the once for all time sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf - period.


I'm not a dispensationalist.

Glad to here that. :)


I do, however believe in the thousand year reign.
We will have to explore that notion in some other thread.


I am afraid I'm guilty of hijacking the thread, so I'll leave off here.

I will have to share some of that guilt. Maybe we can continue this conversation at some time in the future on the appropriate thread. God bless.

[QUOTE=losthorizon;2387439]The point you appear to miss is from God's perspective animal sacrifices will never be needed or required again. The one-time perfect sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ renders any future animal sacrifice forever redundant.


I'm not missing any point. What you say are reality, to Christians. You should know by now that people follow their own path more easily than the path of the Lord. Jews believe otherwise. It is true what you say and I agree about Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice, but that is not according to the Jew.

Thank you Fenris for clearing a few things up for me, I understand it better now.

Everything that Fenris said, is somewhat of a wake-up call for me. What I understand from him is that Jews live to obey God, they live to do His commands.

I do not care who you are, but that on itself should be respected. Do we as Christians do the will of our Lord? Do we live to obey God?
Sometimes I think we take Jesus for granted. We crucify Him over and over and over again. It is like the average Christian do not mind commiting sin, Because Jesus died for us.... Is that the right attitude?
God never change, He is forever the same, yesterday, today and tommorow, He still hates sin.

I do not like the picture the Christian of today are sending out, we have serious homework to do. I am not talking about real Christians, I am talking about all the fakes walking arround... No wonder the world doesn't take us serious.

I think we should start learning from the Jews. They aren't always right offcourse, but neither are we!!

I think we should start learning from the Jews.

Regarding the faith of Christ what is it we should be learning from the Jews? Certainly most religious Jews today are sincere in their beliefs but they continue to deny the Messiahship of Jesus Christ.

I'm not missing any point. What you say are reality, to Christians. You should know by now that people follow their own path more easily than the path of the Lord. Jews believe otherwise.
Are Jews who deny Christ following "the path of the Lord" or "their own path"?

Regarding the faith of Christ what is it we should be learning from the Jews? Certainly most religious Jews today are sincere in their beliefs but they continue to deny the Messiahship of Jesus Christ.

It may be that they deny Jesus as Messiah. But look closer at Israel. Much closer. I would like to see for example stats on crime in Israel, compared to every other country in the world. Look at how they educate and discipline their kids.

It may be that we believe in Jesus, but do we REALLY believe in Him if lots of Christians act otherwise?

Would you say that America are a good rolemoddel for the rest of the world as a Christian country?

Are Jews who deny Christ following "the path of the Lord" or "their own path"?

:) I propably shouldn't have put it all in the same sentance... I believe most Jews do follow the path of God. Many Jews propably follow their own path, just like most Christians.

Fenris must correct me If I am wrong, but Jews live according to the Old Testament, we according to the New Testament.
They follow God's word of the Old Testament...

All I try to say is there is good Qualities of Jews that we can learn from, that's all.

Fenris must correct me If I am wrong, but Jews live according to the Old Testament.

That is what religious Jews do, yes.

It may be that they deny Jesus as Messiah. But look closer at Israel. Much closer. I would like to see for example stats on crime in Israel, compared to every other country in the world. Look at how they educate and discipline their kids.

It may be that we believe in Jesus, but do we REALLY believe in Him if lots of Christians act otherwise?

Would you say that America are a good rolemoddel for the rest of the world as a Christian country?
America is not and has never been a "Christian country” - it is a country with many Christians. The secular nation of Israel has the same problems found in all secular nations - crime, inequality, political corruption, etc, etc .

...Jews live according to the Old Testament, we according to the New Testament.
They follow God's word of the Old Testament...


But OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus – a fact that many Jews during the past 2000 years have acknowledged.

America is not and has never been a "Christian country” - it is a country with many Christians. The secular nation of Israel has the same problems found in all secular nations - crime, inequality, political corruption, etc, etc .

Good point. I'm sure there might be people who will not totally agree with that. I heard the opposite about the "founding fathers" of America. They were REALLY very religious. It's a shame it went all downhill from there. But you will get that anywhere in the world, not just in America.

I am sure crime is a bit different in Israel than in the rest of the world, but only hard evidence in the form of statistics can prove me right or wrong.

Doesn't really matter, we can still learn from Jews.

But OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus – a fact that many Jews during the past 2000 years have acknowledged.

Exactly, but they still wait for the Messiah... But do you think if we sin all the time, don't care about our friends, talk bad of other people behind their backs, etc, etc. that Jews would take us seriosly?
That counts for atheists, moslims and other groups as wel.

...But do you think if we sin all the time, don't care about our friends, talk bad of other people behind their backs, etc, etc. that Jews would take us seriosly?
That counts for atheists, moslims and other groups as wel.
Do you feel that most Christians engage in all of the above or do most Christians care for their fellow man and hope that all come to the knowledge of the Lord including our Jewish friends?

But OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus
Obviously what's "clear" to one person isn't to another.

Do you feel that most Christians engage in all of the above or do most Christians care for their fellow man and hope that all come to the knowledge of the Lord including our Jewish friends?

Most Christians do care about their fellow man, and hope that knowledge of the Lord spreads like wildfire across the globe, most defnitely. Unfortunately you do not need a lot of people with a bad reputation to make things difficult.

We know Satan doesn't want people to get saved. Sometimes I think Satan is more in the Church than anywhere else.

I just think God would like from us to think out of the box. If we want the truth, we should explore. We should be slow to force our beliefs on others, we must do it on a more apropriate manner. I think that you would agree that what Christopher Columbus did to the american natives wasn't very apropriate. And the Crusaders... bringing the word with swords?

We aren't braindead. We should live more according to the will of God, and not crusify our savior over and aver again.

Obviously what's "clear" to one person isn't to another.
Obviously, but that fact has no bearing on the truth that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus. God's truth always remains true.

Obviously, but that fact has no bearing on the truth that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus. God's truth always remains true.

Obviously what's "clear" to one person isn't to another.

What you mean to say is "It's clear to Christians that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus."

Obviously what's "clear" to one person isn't to another.

What you mean to say is "It's clear to Christians that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus."
I mean it is clear to believing Gentiles and believing Jews (the remnant) over the past 2000 years that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus. Remember the NT was written by believing Jews who were inspired by God.

I mean it is clear to believing Gentiles and believing Jews (the remnant) over the past 2000 years that OT prophecy clearly points to the Messiahship of Jesus. Yep. I bolded the important word for you.


Remember the NT was written by believing Jews who were inspired by God.Yes, it was written primarily by Jews who believed in the messiahship of Jesus. Whether they were inspired by God or not depends on whether you're Christian or not.

Yep. I bolded the important word for you.

Yes, it was written primarily by Jews who believed in the messiahship of Jesus. Whether they were inspired by God or not depends on whether you're Christian or not.I would say that the true test of inspiration is whether it is true or not. :)

Getting back to the question of the New Covenant, does Jewish theology teach that the outpouring of the spirit is part of the New Covenant. I have in mind passages such as,

And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20

I would say that the true test of inspiration is whether it is true or not. :)Oh, it's true- but only if you believe that it is ;)


Getting back to the question of the New Covenant, does Jewish theology teach that the outpouring of the spirit is part of the New Covenant. I have in mind passages such as,

And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God. Ezekiel 11:19-20
The messianic era will have prophecy and universal knowledge of God and strict observance of the law.

Oh, it's true- but only if you believe that it is ;)

The messianic era will have prophecy and universal knowledge of God and strict observance of the law.

Thanks. This may be a slight tangent, but you talked about the messianic era. Does Jewish theology expect Jews to return to the lands of their fathers during this time?

Yep. I bolded the important word for you.

Yes, it was written primarily by Jews who believed in the messiahship of Jesus.


Why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus?
Acts 2:29-36 (New International Version)

"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

The messianic era will have prophecy and universal knowledge of God and strict observance of the law.

Is this a statement of faith? ;)

Thanks. This may be a slight tangent, but you talked about the messianic era. Does Jewish theology expect Jews to return to the lands of their fathers during this time?

As per many lines in the prophets, yes. I had an whole thread on the subject in "contro". I'll do another if you like.

Is this a statement of faith? ;)
No, it's many statements by the prophets.

Why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus?
He wasn't the first false messiah that Jews followed nor was he the last.



" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

Mistranslated and not considered messianic by Jews.

He wasn't the first false messiah that Jews followed nor was he the last.Good point, not many Christians know that David was a messiah, Solomon was a messiah, etc.

I was actually thinking about Bar Kochba, Shabtei Tzvi, etc. but your point is good too.

Everything that Fenris said, is somewhat of a wake-up call for me. What I understand from him is that Jews live to obey God, they live to do His commands.

I do not care who you are, but that on itself should be respected.Should a lack of faith in Christ be respected? Any Jew who truly lives to obey God and do His commands will believe in His Son.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Any Jew who truly lives to obey God and do His commands will believe in His Son.

Any Jew who truly lives to obey God will do His commands and believe that He is one.

Any Jew who truly lives to obey God will do His commands and believe that He is one.And they will obey God's command to believe in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matt 17
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
We don't obey voices from clouds or anything else. The bible is our medium for understanding God.

We don't obey voices from clouds or anything else. The bible is our medium for understanding God.Jesus fulfilled what was prophesied in your Jewish Bible concerning the Messiah. God commands us to believe in His Son Jesus the Messiah.

Jesus fulfilled what was prophesied in your Jewish Bible concerning the Messiah.
Christians believe this. Jews do not.

God commands us to believe in His Son Jesus the Messiah.
Christians believe this. Jews do not.

He wasn't the first false messiah that Jews followed nor was he the last.


You didn't answer the question - why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus?


Mistranslated and not considered messianic by Jews.
You do err - it was and is accepted as messianic by thousands of Jews including some who were responsible for the death of Christ. Those remnant Jews easily made the biblical connection from David to Jesus which is easy to do. Of course there have been many more Jews since that time who have made the same connection. Paul also tells of those Jews whose minds are "blinded to the truth" and he tells us the reason. The truth remains - Jesus is Messiah without doubt and the Day will come when all will confess Jesus as Lord...
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:5-11 ESV)

Christians believe this. Jews do not.


Christians (both Jew and Gentile) believe Jesus is Lord because the prophets of God have revealed it to be true.
Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. (Jer 1:9)

Any Jew who truly lives to obey God will do His commands and believe that He is one.
And thus we have seen over the centuries - Jews who obey God, obey His commandments and believe on the name of Jesus Christ are added to the Lord's kingdom - not a hard concept at all.

We don't obey voices from clouds or anything else. The bible is our medium for understanding God.
I am not sure who you mean by "we" but Jews did hear and obey God's voice from the clouds...;)
“There came thundering and lightning, and a cloud upon the mountain of God, and a great Voice like trumpets blasting, so that all the people in the camp trembled.” Exod 19:16

You didn't answer the question - why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus? Why did thousands of Jews follow Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi? Perhaps they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to them. That didn't make it correct though.


You do err - it was and is accepted as messianic by thousands of Jews including some who were responsible for the death of Christ. It's mistranslated. If you read it in Hebrew the meaning would become clear.

I am not sure who you mean by "we" but Jews did hear and obey God's voice from the clouds...;)
“There came thundering and lightning, and a cloud upon the mountain of God, and a great Voice like trumpets blasting, so that all the people in the camp trembled.” Exod 19:16

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. (Deuteronomy 4)

Why did thousands of Jews follow Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi? Perhaps they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to them. That didn't make it correct though.

Do you have documented evidence that Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi taught their followers they fulfilled messianic prophecy or is this only wishful thinking on your part? Did Bar Kochba ever say, "before Abraham was, I Am”? Did Bar Kochba ever claim to be Messiah? Those who followed him only followed because of his military expertise against the hated Romans. Did Shabtei Tzvi really have “thousands of followers”? When he converted to Islam it is said only a couple of hundred families followed your false messiah. Did your men transform millions of sinners into children of God over the past 2000 years by their shed blood? Did your messiahs die on a cross to take away the sins of sinful man? Do your messiahs have even one follower living today? Did either man fulfill Old Testament prophecies which point to the coming Messiah and to His life and death?
Many of the prophecies concerning the Messiah were totally beyond human control: Birth: Place, time, manner of Death: People's reactions, piercing of side, burial Resurrection: Where did His body go? By using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight of these prophecies, the chance that any man might have lived to fulfill all eight prophecies is one in 100 trillion! To illustrate this point: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep.

Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. ~ Jerry Ballard

It's mistranslated. If you read it in Hebrew the meaning would become clear.
So says a non-believing Jew. All of the scholastic interpretations I have read regarding the passage show it to be messianic - fulfilled by Jesus.

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. (Deuteronomy 4)
You didn't answer the question - is it recorded that the Jews did in fact hear and obey God's voice from the clouds? I think you misspoke earlier - yes?

For the record - you still haven't answered my question, why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus? If you are not capable of answering just say you are not capable and I will not ask again.

You didn't answer the question - is it recorded that the Jews did in fact hear and obey God's voice from the clouds? I think you misspoke earlier - yes?

For the record - you still haven't answered my question, why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus? If you are not capable of answering just say you are not capable and I will not ask again.

Fenris actually did answer your question... Do all of you actually read what the other says??

Should a lack of faith in Christ be respected? Any Jew who truly lives to obey God and do His commands will believe in His Son.

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I do not think any of you actually reads what the other says. We have brains, we should use it. Why on earth would a Christian like myself say the things I do? Maybe because I am Dissapointed in the overall attitude of Christians and the way the world sees them?

All the signs of the end is at hand, I am sure I do not have to tell anyone that. Millions of socalled Christians are being misled, not just Jews or any other religion.
The world is a total mess at this moment. The Jews may not obey Gods will COMPLETELY, but sometimes I think they do a better Job than us. That is my point, please do not miss it.

If we REALLY believe in Jesus, shouldn't we act like it? I am talking about Christians in general.

I think this is where I am going to stop. I just want all of us to think... offcourse it is importand to spread the word, but with the right attitude and the right immage to go with it. We must be sure that our house are clean.

You didn't answer the question - is it recorded that the Jews did in fact hear and obey God's voice from the clouds? I think you misspoke earlier - yes? 2 points. First, every Jew in the world was present at Sinai; Your example has only a few individuals. Second, the bible was closed in Deuteronomy. I made that point earlier and you appear to have ignored it.


For the record - you still haven't answered my question, why do you think thousands of Jews in the first century in Jerusalem put their faith in the Messiahship of Jesus - do you think they understood the messianic references revealed in the OT pointed directly to Jesus? I am sure they did. Just as thousands of Jews saw messianic refrences to Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi. They too were wrong.

Hi Fenris,

I think the biggest problem with Christians are that we are somewhat dumbfounded that Jews can not see that Jesus are the true Messiah, and that He fullfiled most of the Old Testament.

It is so real, that reality that we can almost touch it. Everything that Jesus teached the Jews was so truthfull, with so much authority and with such a sound doctrine that it is bulletproof.

With all respect towards Jews I can only say one thing: I never in my life saw a people that are more hardheaded and stubborn like the Jews! :) Right through the bible you see this, thousand of examples. They even killed their Prophets, messagers from God, and Killed the Messiah, the one they still wait for.

I would like, if possible, if you can read Mathew 12:39-42. Actually I would like even more if you can read the whole New Testament.

Fenris, I know Jews do not believe in Jesus, they do not want to. For them it is Blasphemy against God to call Him 3 in 1.
But it is not that simple.

Did you read the books of Enoch? Even before the Hebrew Bible became what it is now, Enoch talked about the Father, the Son of man and the Holy Ghost.

The thing is, you must understand, we as Christians are so dumbfounded that the proof of Jesus are so strong, so overpowering and "in your face" but still Jews do not believe. It's killing us!! :)

Hi Fenris,

I think the biggest problem with Christians are that we are somewhat dumbfounded that Jews can not see that Jesus are the true Messiah, and that He fullfiled most of the Old Testament.

It's a differing perception of the bible that's at play here. The verses that Christians cite as messianic are seen by Jews as either not messianic, not significant, or unfulfilled. Meanwhile, the verses Jews cite as messianic are seen by Christians as either fulfilled "spiritually" (not literally) or will be fulfilled in a "second coming".

If you would like to have a discussion on the specifics, I would suggest you start a thread in "contro". This is not really the spot for it.

It's a differing perception of the bible that's at play here. The verses that Christians cite as messianic are seen by Jews as either not messianic, not significant, or unfulfilled. Meanwhile, the verses Jews cite as messianic are seen by Christians as either fulfilled "spiritually" (not literally) or will be fulfilled in a "second coming".

If you would like to have a discussion on the specifics, I would suggest you start a thread in "contro". This is not really the spot for it.
"Different perception" is key, and it seems we will not get past this. We live in a interresting generation, I think all will be resolved soon enough(my perception).

Christians believe this. Jews do not.

Christians believe this. Jews do not.Many Jews do believe it.

Many Jews do believe it.
If it consoles you to believe that, be my guest. I'm tired of debating the point.

If it consoles you to believe that, be my guest. I'm tired of debating the point.It's not a matter of me believing it because it's fact. Don't act as if there are no Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That is clearly not the case.

It's not a matter of me believing it because it's fact. Don't act as if there are no Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That is clearly not the case.
Sigh. How many times do I have to say the same thing? Jews followed Jesus. Jews followed bar Kochba. Jews followed Shabeti Tzvi. Heck, Jews followed Karl Marx. That alone doesn't make any of them the promised messiah, no matter how much those who followed them might wish it to be so...

Sigh. How many times do I have to say the same thing? Jews followed Jesus. Jews followed bar Kochba. Jews followed Shabeti Tzvi. Heck, Jews followed Karl Marx. That alone doesn't make any of them the promised messiah, no matter how much those who followed them might wish it to be so...

I never heard of these other people... Exept Karl Marx, I'll do some research...

Thank you Fenris, that led to some interresting reading.. I really hope you can read the New Testament.. Jesus warned Jews about these people. He said there would be a lot of false Messiah's in the future..

Bar Kochba- So tippical of what Jews expect from a Messiah... History is propably going to repeat itself similar than this..

Shabeti Tzvi- First thing that came up with this name was Kabbalah....

Thank you Fenris, that led to some interresting reading.. I really hope you can read the New Testament.. I have.



Bar Kochba- So tippical of what Jews expect from a Messiah...

Well, yes. He did rout the Romans from Judea for a time. That actually fulfilled literal text from the prophets. He too fell short though.

2 points. First, every Jew in the world was present at Sinai; Your example has only a few individuals.


Then we are in agreement with your correction - God can and did speak to Jews from the clouds just as what is recorded in the Book - ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ The Jewish legal forms were established in Deuteronomy 17:6 - the testimony of "two or three witnesses" are required – one need not have every Jew in the world present to establish the validity of God’s revelation that Jesus was the Christ. God said He would raise another prophet like unto Moses – and He did just that - Jesus the Christ is that Prophet. God’s words are clear… "Hear Him!"
On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. ~ Deuteronomy 17:6

"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." ~ 2 Corinthians 13:1
Second, the bible was closed in Deuteronomy.

So says the non-believing Jew but we have the revelation presented in the New Testament that has been proven beyond doubt to be God’s word. You remain in error - God's revelation was not closed in Deuteronomy. God's word was completed at the end of the apostolic era...
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (Rev 22:17-21 ESV)

I am sure they did. Just as thousands of Jews saw messianic refrences to Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi. They too were wrong.
Of course those Jews connected Jesus to the true Messiah – that’s a given truth - believing Jews do the same thing today. The truth remains – thousands of Jews in the first century and untold thousands more throughout history have accepted the Messiahship of Jesus because He is Messiah. These same Jewish conversions continue today as Jew and Gentile are made one “in Christ”. Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi were false messiahs – Jesus is the Son of God - proven by God’s revealed word. Jews today do not embrace those men as the Messiah but they do embrace Jesus as Messiah – this fact renders your argument impotent.

Jesus fulfilled prophecy that only Messiah could fulfill – this has been demonstrated to you and you have never been able to impeach God’s truth. Your false messiahs have absolutely no messianic credentials as demonstrated. Where is your evidence that Bar Kochba ever claimed to be the messiah? Where is your evidence that Shabtei Tzvi had thousands of followers? Where are your scriptural references that either man fulfilled messianic prophecy?

Remember – the messianic prophecies concerning the “Birth: Place, time, manner of Death: People's reactions, piercing of side, burial Resurrection” can be connected to only one Person in all of history and that One is Christ Jesus. The science of probability tells us that for one man to fulfill just eight of the messianic prophecies as Jesus did is a one in 100 trillion feat. Your men do not fulfill any.

Jews followed Jesus. Jews followed bar Kochba. Jews followed Shabeti Tzvi. Heck, Jews followed Karl Marx. That alone doesn't make any of them the promised messiah, no matter how much those who followed them might wish it to be so...
The truth that Jesus is Messiah is found in the truth revealed in God's word and you have never impeached God's word. Can you? Remember, Jews still embrace Jesus as Messiah just as they have done for over 2000 years. Most Jews today have never heard of bar Kochba and Shabeti Tzvi. Why?

Jews for Jesus mission statement -
"to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide."

I have.



Well, yes. He did rout the Romans from Judea for a time. That actually fulfilled literal text from the prophets. He too fell short though.

Fenris, with all respect, I can not see that you have knowledge of the New Testament. The New Testament and what Jesus said are all very litteral and should be understood litteral.

I can understand if we do not totally agree on the Old Testament and that we may have different perceptions on it, but the New Testament is a bit different.

Everything that Jesus warned about and said did happen and are happening now. What He said will happen to the temple did.

Then we are in agreement with your correction - God can and did speak to Jews from the clouds just as what is recorded in the Book - ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ The Jewish legal forms were established in Deuteronomy 17:6 - the testimony of "two or three witnesses" are required – one need not have every Jew in the world present to establish the validity of God’s revelation that Jesus was the Christ. God said He would raise another prophet like unto Moses – and He did just that - Jesus the Christ is that Prophet. God’s words are clear… "Hear Him!"[INDENT]On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. ~ Deuteronomy 17:6If you want to go the legalistic route there are many issues here. The prescense of God on earth is not a legal issue that may be decided by a court. The witnesses here never presented their evidence to a court anyway. We don't have witnesses, actually, but only the written word, and the written word may not be used as a "witness". We don't even know who wrote the bibe anyway. Etc etc.



So says the non-believing JewSo says the bible, my friend.


but we have the revelation presented in the New Testament that has been proven beyond doubt to be God’s word.
Obviously you and I have different definitions of the word "proof".



Of course those Jews connected Jesus to the true Messiah – that’s a given truth - believing Jews do the same thing today. The truth remains – thousands of Jews in the first century and untold thousands more throughout history have accepted the Messiahship of Jesus because He is Messiah. These same Jewish conversions continue today as Jew and Gentile are made one “in Christ”. Bar Kochba and Shabtei Tzvi were false messiahs – Jesus is the Son of God - proven by God’s revealed word. Jews today do not embrace those men as the Messiah but they do embrace Jesus as Messiah – this fact renders your argument impotent. From my perspective it simply means new generations make the same mistake anew.


Jesus fulfilled prophecy that only Messiah could fulfill – this has been demonstrated to you and you have never been able to impeach God’s truth.Jesus actually accomplished nothing that can be seen. That's why belief in his messiahship is called "faith".


Your false messiahs have absolutely no messianic credentials as demonstrated. Where is your evidence that Bar Kochba ever claimed to be the messiah?
He didn't, the claim was made by those around him. Just like Jesus.


Where is your evidence that Shabtei Tzvi had thousands of followers?It's in the history books.


Where are your scriptural references that either man fulfilled messianic prophecy? Shabtei Tzvi didn't, actaully. But Bar Kochba actually routed the Roman armies and set up an independant Jewish state in Judea.


Remember – the messianic prophecies concerning the “Birth: Place, time, manner of Death: People's reactions, piercing of side, burial Resurrection” can be connected to only one Person in all of history and that One is Christ Jesus. As I said earlier, you're more interested in genealogy than prophecy. We're waiting for the world peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilt temple, etc.

Jews for Jesus mission statement -
"to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide.""Jews for Jesus" is a misnomer if ever I've heard one.

Fenris, with all respect, I can not see that you have knowledge of the New Testament. The New Testament and what Jesus said are all very litteral and should be understood litteral.
Saying that the prophecy of a rebuilt temple was "fulfilled" because "Jesus was the temple" is not a literal fulfillment.

If you guys are interested to know why Jews are still waiting, let me know. I'll start another thread in "controversial issues" about biblical verses regarding the messianic era.

Thank you Fenris, that will be interresting. To Say Jesus IS the temple, to me IS very litteral, He lives!!(but that's just my Christian few :) )

See new thread here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?208872-Messianic-verses-in-the-bible-from-the-Jewish-perspective&p=2389220#post2389220)

(Sorry David Taylor. Thanks for tolerating Jewish apologetics this long).

If you want to go the legalistic route there are many issues here.


No there are really not many issues at all and it is not a legal matter per se – it remains a matter of truth – truth from the mouth of God as witnessed by man. In His certification of the legitimacy of the Messiahship of Jesus, God clearly stated,
‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ This great truth was corroborated by men called and certified by God and this certified truth is passed down to us today in the pages of God’s word. This truth remains the biblical and historical facts – facts that you have failed to refute. Why?


The witnesses here never presented their evidence to a court anyway.
You’re wrong again – the evidence has been presented over and over in the court of man’s reasoning based on God's revelation. Millions upon millions of Jews and Gentiles have accepted this truth as evidenced by their acceptance of the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. Your ‘reality’ is a false-reality. You have a big problem with "believing Jews" but their existence will not go away simply because you can't deal with reality.


We don't even know who wrote the bibe anyway.
Wrong – we know exactly who wrote the Bible - God wrote the Bible via His chosen and God-inspired instruments. All Scripture is “God-breathed” or does that also not coincide with your ‘reality’?
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness ~ 2 Timothy 3:16
Obviously you and I have different definitions of the word "proof".
What exactly is your definition of ‘proof’?
proof - the validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
Jesus actually accomplished nothing that can be seen. That's why belief in his messiahship is called "faith".

The good works of men and women who are disciples of Jesus can certainly be seen throughout the world over the past 2000 years. The Messiahship of Jesus Christ remains what it has always been - a biblical fact based on fulfilled prophecy that points only to Him and no one else. Believing Jews have always understood this truth – from the apostolic era until today. Our friends at Jews for Jesus recognize this truth today. Listen closely…
What, then, are some of the credentials of the Messiah? Only a few can be listed below; there are many others. All of these passages were recognized by the early rabbis as referring to the Messiah:
• Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
• Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
• Messiah would present himself by riding on an ass: Zechariah 9:9
• Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
• Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
• Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12 In detail as to lineage, birthplace, time, and lifestyle, Jesus matched the Messianic expectations of the Hebrew Scriptures. The record of this fulfillment is to be found in the pages of the New Testament. But several other factors combine to further substantiate the Messiahship of Jesus.

In the first place, he claimed to be the Messiah! When a woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming." he replied, "I who speak to you am he."Naturally, that doesn't prove anything one way or the other. But if Jesus had never made the claim to be the Messiah, why would we bother to try and prove that he was? His own claim lays the groundwork for the rest of the evidence.

Also, Jesus' life is in sharp contrast to that of the false Messiahs, and it is a positive demonstration of what we would expect the Messiah to do. Thus, Jesus worked many miracles of healing, bringing wholeness into people's lives, forgiving sin and restoring relationships. In contrast with Shabbetai Zevi, for instance, Jesus carried out the Law of Moses as a devout Jew. And in contrast with Bar Kochba, although Jesus also died, he was resurrected! ~ Jews for Jesus

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/proofessay

"Jews for Jesus" is a misnomer if ever I've heard one.
As already stated - you have a big problem with "believing Jews" but their existence over the past 2000 years will not go away simply because you can't deal with reality. ;)

Saying that the prophecy of a rebuilt temple was "fulfilled" because "Jesus was the temple" is not a literal fulfillment.
And not every prophecy in Holy Writ requires a literal fulfillment - right? Allegorical application of Scripture is sometimes used by God or do you keep God in a tiny box?
Allegorism. That explanation of a Scripture passage which is based upon the supposition that its author, whether God or man, intended something "other" (Greek, ἀλλος) than what is literally expressed. Expositors of this system may be called allegorists; the system itself, allegorism. Two modes of Allegorical Interpretation are found dealing with the Bible: the one, symbolic or typologic interpretation, derived mainly from Palestinian Jews; the other the philosophical or mystical modes, originating with the Alexandrian Jews of Egypt. Both methods originate in the same natural cause; whenever the literature of a people has become an inseparable part of its intellectual possession, and the ancient and venerated letter of this literature is in the course of time no longer in consonance with more modern views, to enable the people to preserve their allegiance to the tradition it becomes necessary to make that tradition carry and contain the newer thought as well. Allegorism is thus in some sense an incipient phase of rationalism. As soon as philosophy arose among the Greeks, Homer and the old popular poetry were allegorized. There being scarcely a people which underwent such powerful religious development and at the same time remained so fervently attached to its venerable traditions as the Jews, allegorism became of necessity a prominent feature in the history of their literature. ~ Jewish Encyclopedia

And not every prophecy in Holy Writ requires a literal fulfillment - right? some literal fulfilment would be nice.


Allegorical application of Scripture is sometimes used by God or do you keep God in a tiny box? Can I apply an allegorical reading of scripture for "You shall not steal"? How about "You shall not kill"? No? Why not?

This great truth was corroborated by men called and certified by God and this certified truth is passed down to us today in the pages of God’s word. This truth remains the biblical and historical facts – facts that you have failed to refute. Why?

Please start a new thread in "contro" if you want to have this discussion. The moderator here does not approve of Jewish apologetics and I respect his wishes.

some literal fulfilment would be nice.


But not required.


Can I apply an allegorical reading of scripture for "You shall not steal"? How about "You shall not kill"?
What about "the serpent" beguiling Eve through his subtlety - literal hermeneutic?

Please start a new thread in "contro" if you want to have this discussion. The moderator here does not approve of Jewish apologetics and I respect his wishes.

The point has been made. The biblical and historical facts are what they are.

Please start a new thread in "contro" if you want to have this discussion. The moderator here does not approve of Jewish apologetics and I respect his wishes.

Please start a new thread in "contro" if you want to have this discussion. The moderator here does not approve of Jewish apologetics and I respect his wishes.
No need to start a new thread - the point has been made. The biblical and historical facts are what they are.