You know this is not going to be a Catholic bashing thread. I love my parents. And I do go with my dad to his church on Mondays. But something happened recently that made me a little concerned. They had never mentioned the whole Mary thing to me. But 2 weeks ago they had some priests bring over this statue called the Virgin of Fatima. And the purpose was so that they could pray to not lose their house, and that this statue would somehow make it happen.

Wouldn't you know it. The night that the statue came over, my dad got a call from the mortgage company, and then a few days later they advised them that the foreclosure on their house had been canceled. The funny thing is, while my mom is telling my MIL the story, she looks at my wife and kind of goes out of her way to say how great Mary was, and that she is a mother after all.

At this point I was like :B and kind of had to step away. I'm really frustrated and concerned for them. I don't want them to replace Jesus in their lives, with a statue that's lifeless.

Any input would be great. Thanks.

Not me........................

You know this is not going to be a Catholic bashing thread. I love my parents. And I do go with my dad to his church on Mondays. But something happened recently that made me a little concerned. They had never mentioned the whole Mary thing to me. But 2 weeks ago they had some priests bring over this statue called the Virgin of Fatima. And the purpose was so that they could pray to not lose their house, and that this statue would somehow make it happen.

Wouldn't you know it. The night that the statue came over, my dad got a call from the mortgage company, and then a few days later they advised them that the foreclosure on their house had been canceled. The funny thing is, while my mom is telling my MIL the story, she looks at my wife and kind of goes out of her way to say how great Mary was, and that she is a mother after all.

At this point I was like :B and kind of had to step away. I'm really frustrated and concerned for them. I don't want them to replace Jesus in their lives, with a statue that's lifeless.

Any input would be great. Thanks.

Well it wasn't the statue, and they don't pray to such. Maybe they ask Mary to pray for them, after all we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, and God is His will answered the supplication of the Theotokos.

What's the "Theotokos"?

Here you go :)


Theotokos (Greek: Θεοτόκος, translit. Theotókos) is the Greek title of Mary, the mother of Jesus used especially in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches. Its literal English translations include God-bearer and the one who gives birth to God. Less literal translations include Mother of God. Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and some Protestants use the title Mother of God more often than Theotokos. The Council of Ephesus decreed in 431 that Mary is Theotokos because her son Jesus is one person who is both God and man, divine and human


Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos#Etymology_and_translation)

Well my first observation of course is that now that she's dead. She can't ask her Son for anything on my behalf. Thanks for the info though.

Any other input?

My wife is Roman Catholic. I can tell you from past experience that the best thing you can do for your parents is pray for them. Uncomfortable confrontations will only cause them to dig their heels in deeper.

That's an excellent point Nomad. Thankfully I have an excellent relationship and we've discussed various topics over the time they've become "practicing" Catholic. I emphasize "practicing" because they used to not go to church at all. This is just one particular thing that happened recently and it kind of caught me off guard. Perhaps the opportunity will present itself so I can talk with them and just see what it is they actually believe in respect to Mary and the situation with the house.

Thank you.

Well my first observation of course is that now that she's dead. She can't ask her Son for anything on my behalf. Thanks for the info though.

Any other input?

As Christians we believe that those who pass on are not dead even as Paul says:

But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

II Corinthians 5:8.

Those who die in Christ live on, so no she is not dead nor will you or I be when we meet the Lord, we must remember:

He is not God of the dead but of the living, because all are living to Him."

Luke 20:38

Good point New. But that's not what I'm trying to discuss. Thank you.

Good point New. But that's not what I'm trying to discuss. Thank you.

It does go along with your discussion though in that there was nothing wrong in what they did, and even God honored it by answering their prayers

You aren't the only one. I do aswell. Though its more of my mother.

Nomad does make a good point. Its tough ground to walk on because on one hand you want to explain things from scripture but they could dig their heels in. My mom will make similar comments at times. When we sold our house about 14 years ago i believe it was attributed to a saint's statue or something like that.

One thing i learned is to be calm and patient and most of all to listen. Its easy for me to almost talk over my mom about issues like these. I dont want to turn her off but i want to gently explain from scripture what i think and why i think that. While there are theological differences between us i remind her that (aside from the Apocrypha) our bibles are the same. When the whole "praying to saints" or "praying to Mary" comes up I try and recall key verses that speak of Christ as our mediator. Not merely that but why He is more than sufficient.

One thing to remember is that you aren't there to win an argument. That's where the patience part comes in. For me its easy to see stuff like this but i have to remember that my mom might not know the scriptures as well as myself. I just present her what scripture says and explain why i believe it.

Thank you Quickened. That was excellent feedback. You know it's funny. One day my dad shows me his new bible. I bought him one like 16 years ago when I first became a Christian, and I said "wow, that's a nice bible, so what are you reading right now" to which of course he had no answer. So I said it's great you have a new bible, now read it. It won't break if you open it. So that's one of the things I try to emphasize to him. The importance of reading the scriptures for yourself.

At this point I was like and kind of had to step away. I'm really frustrated and concerned for them. I don't want them to replace Jesus in their lives, with a statue that's lifeless.

My mother actually recently CONVERTED from Evangelicalism to Catholicism.

To her credit, she never prays to saints much (if at all) and mostly left out of our old church's stance on abortion (they didn't want to "rock the boat" so they don't condemn it from the pulpit). I am nevertheless amazed to see how devoid of sincere devotion to Jesus even the best of Catholic ministries are, however.

My advice - sure the statue coincidence will work in her superstitious favor, but debating usually only leads to arguing, and arguing to bad feelings.

My advice (besides pray, you should always pray!) is to ask her to explain some Catholic doctrines not in a spirit of challenging her but in a spirit of loving inquiry - it forces them to examine their beliefs in light of the Bible. But they didn't reason themselves into their faith, so why not invite them to church events?

Thank you decrumpit. I do invite them to church and they do show up when I invite them. Luckily that's not an issue.

Yes both of my parents. The RCC church we attend to do not partake in any strange stuff like that, I dig my church. For all the bashing the RCC gets our church strictly concentrates on scripture, God and Jesus Christ. I think we are in the minority.

I doubt that, most masses have three scriptural readings and than a homily from those. It is strange the ideas that people get about the Church, of course I thought the same too at one time until I really found out what the Church teaches. :)

I doubt that, most masses have three scriptural readings and than a homily from those. It is strange the ideas that people get about the Church, of course I thought the same too at one time until I really found out what the Church teaches. :)

What do they teach???

That would take a long time to post. Suffice to say both camps have grossly misrepresented the other side

That would take a long time to post. Suffice to say both camps have grossly misrepresented the other side

Seems The Gospel would be sufficent as Christ commissioned, but I guess not.

Well there is the Gospel, but it doesn't end there.

Ok guys focus. This is about dealing with family that are Roman Catholic. Not for discussing doctrinal differences. You're more than welcome to start a thread on that. But for the purpose of this thread let's focus on my original question.

Thank you.

Okay, sorry about that. :)

Seems The Gospel would be sufficent as Christ commissioned, but I guess not.

The Catholic (and other Orthodox churches) have fixed liturgies which necessitate the reading of the entirety of scripture each liturgical cycle. This practically guarantees that the gospel is heard in every Catholic (and Orthodox) church in the world.

Yep, takes one year to go through Scriptures totally on weekday Masses and three years to get through Scripture on just Sundays. :)

Seeking, I take a very different view on this than has been stated yet.

Personally, I don't think that disagreement leads people into error. It often can, and will if you do so with impatience or contempt, but that isn't going to be an issue here. People need to hear the truth and there are ways to disagree that won't break a relationship.

Do your parents value your insight? Of course they do, so why would they want you to withhold it?

If they are Bible readers, then this is a good place to start. The thing about Catholicism is that it accepts the Bible as authoritative and tradition as authoritative. That’s the big difference between Protestants and Catholics, but there’s only one way to get around it, as far as I can see. Demonstrate how they don’t actually believe that traditions are authoritative.

Most Catholics I’ve spoken to pay lip service to traditions, and may really embrace doing them, but don’t really think they are authoritative, since you can always find ones the RCC holds as doctrine, but they personally reject.

Set the precedent that they don’t actually accept traditions the way they know they should accept the Bible and steer it towards what the Bible says.

Ultimately, it’s the God’s Word that convicts, so just find a way to go through what the Bible says on the issue, and pray the Holy Spirit would convict them.

In Titus we see that it is our job to warn people, and warn them again, but it won’t do any good to badger them, so give them the scriptures and pray.

If they do take offense, don’t sweat it. Just explain very plainly that you disagree and would like to show them why. If they refuse, then fine, you did what you could and then you pray. If they’re mad, they’ll get over it if you don’t make a thing about it but show them you love them and don’t look down on them.

If someone goes off on doctrine, we’re supposed to correct them. Not force or badger, but correct, and if we don’t we’re not doing them any favours.

Thank you for your post Ryan. This is really helpful information.

You know this is not going to be a Catholic bashing thread. I love my parents. And I do go with my dad to his church on Mondays. But something happened recently that made me a little concerned. They had never mentioned the whole Mary thing to me. But 2 weeks ago they had some priests bring over this statue called the Virgin of Fatima. And the purpose was so that they could pray to not lose their house, and that this statue would somehow make it happen.

Wouldn't you know it. The night that the statue came over, my dad got a call from the mortgage company, and then a few days later they advised them that the foreclosure on their house had been canceled. The funny thing is, while my mom is telling my MIL the story, she looks at my wife and kind of goes out of her way to say how great Mary was, and that she is a mother after all.

At this point I was like :B and kind of had to step away. I'm really frustrated and concerned for them. I don't want them to replace Jesus in their lives, with a statue that's lifeless.

Any input would be great. Thanks.

This breaks my heart. Satan is alive and very much at work. My mother as well is Catholic. I have had many conversations with her and she says that she believes in Jesus Christ and that He died for her sins, however, she also believes that Mary is the Mother of God and watches over all of us and is the intercessor. She has statues that she insists she doesn't pray to, but not sure why she has to have them at all.
It's frustrating when their "prayers" are answered...but be sure they aren't being answered by God. I truly believe it is a tactic to keep them away from truly accepting Christ as Savior.
I am going to go and pray for your parents right now...and my Mom too.
There is power in the prayer of those who belong to Him!

So are you saying Catholics Christians are lead by Satan?

No, not at all...but I am saying that being Catholic does not make you a Christian.

Please everyone. Remember this is not to be a bashing thread. I just want feedback from those who are going through something similar. Thank you.

I was attempting to do that, and I apologize if it seemed I was going off track.
My mother just painted a statue that she was putting in front of her home for protection. Your post got me frustrated in that she appears to be putting her faith in it.

Thank you for your post Ryan. This is really helpful information.

My pleasure. I'm having a lot of work done at my place and two seperate crews are run by guys who are Catholic. I've already spoken to one of them, and we had a polite conversation (to my wife's amazement - how do you bring up grace vs. works when you're talking about insulation?) that didn't really get anywhere since he didn't want to dive too far into it so I gave him my take and left it at that.

One down, one to go.

What do you say to a prayer swap?

What do you say to a prayer swap?

Sounds excellent. Thank you.

Well my first observation of course is that now that she's dead. She can't ask her Son for anything on my behalf. Thanks for the info though.

Any other input?I agree, she's deaf to us all. Only Jesus hears us.

Pray and when they may bring up an opening to use scripture, have all the scripture that ministers how Jesus is our ONLY intercessor before God. How the Holy Spirit can even pray for us when we don't even have the words to speak.

The events dealing with the forclosure are worldly and we all know who is prince of this world and plays religion to appear to be of God.

Interceed for them, that their eyes are opened to the truth and that piece of stone did nothing, just as all the pieces of stone that man called god throughout the Bible, never did anything cept anger God.

Sounds excellent. Thank you.

Great. I've prayed and will do so again.

My parents aren't Catholic, but we do have some disagreements. Some of which are big ones, and there’s definitely sore spots sometimes, but confidence in the value of God’s word goes a long way. Whenever things start getting a little heated, with the ‘You think I’m such and such...’ if you just keep cool and reassuring that you’re not judging them, you just think that the Bible says this or that, it’s worked very well for me for defusing.

The fruits of the spirit are really not something that friends and family can lightly throw away if you’ve used to mutual love and respect. Family dynamics that are more complicated obviously have more challenges in the process, but ultimately I think the approach stands.

No, not at all...but I am saying that being Catholic does not make you a Christian.

True, being Protestant doesn't either.

I agree, she's deaf to us all. Only Jesus hears us.

Pray and when they may bring up an opening to use scripture, have all the scripture that ministers how Jesus is our ONLY intercessor before God. How the Holy Spirit can even pray for us when we don't even have the words to speak.

The events dealing with the forclosure are worldly and we all know who is prince of this world and plays religion to appear to be of God.

Interceed for them, that their eyes are opened to the truth and that piece of stone did nothing, just as all the pieces of stone that man called god throughout the Bible, never did anything cept anger God.

Right.

I think the key thing to remember about prayers to Mary is that no such precedent can be seen in scripture. The concept is entirely from tradition.

The argument that the dead are not actually dead doesn’t actually follow since the Bible acknowledges the difference between being spiritually dead and physically dead, but still does acknowledge physically dead as dead, as we see in Revelation 20:12 “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

So the practice just doesn’t hold water, given that the Bible identifies them as dead and we’re told not to ‘consult the dead” (Deut. 18:11).

Prayer is communicating through faith instead communicating to a physically present person through words or correspondence that you know can reach them. Adam and Eve did not pray to God in the garden, they spoke with Him. The dead in Revelation don’t pray to God, they call out to Him (Revelation 6:10), and since the Bible tells “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5), and there is no scriptural way around trying to communicate with the dead.

The Bible is straight forward enough about this that they should feel how it’s a stretch at best to try to marry this practice in with scripture when they’re trying to describe it.

Thank you all so much for the continued input. I really do appreciate it.

Most of the prayer ' to' Mary is basicaly quoted biblical texts.[except the last line]. It 's not the best idea, but us protestants also have some funny ideas. So except the last line, this prayer is quoting good doctrine.

As Christians we believe that those who pass on are not deadRight, but we don't pray to them.

There is one Mediator between God and Man, and that is the God-Man Jesus Christ. Not his human mother.

Praying to Mary, let alone a statue of her, is an attempt to replace the one Mediator (Jesus Christ) with another (Mary). The inclusion of the statue as an overt move into idolatry of graven images according to my Book. (For what it's worth, this isn't a bash on Catholics. It's a bash on replacing God with a statue of a human.)

It's really not much different than the Hebrews asking Aaron to make them an image for a god. It's like we humans tend to want to have a tangible god.

Thankfully though I have a good relationship with my parents and have had some pretty good conversations in their time of practicing. Since I've been a Christian for many years, they tend to ask me, and my wife, some good questions when they're not sure about a certain point.

MOD NOTE:
Several posts were moved to a new thread so as not to keep going off topic. You can find it here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/211796-Catholic-Traditions-%28From-the-parents-thread%29) .

Thank you for your understanding.

True, being Protestant doesn't either.

An excellent comment!!!
Sorry,maybe this should be inthe other thread?

It's really not much different than the Hebrews asking Aaron to make them an image for a god. It's like we humans tend to want to have a tangible god.

Thankfully though I have a good relationship with my parents and have had some pretty good conversations in their time of practicing. Since I've been a Christian for many years, they tend to ask me, and my wife, some good questions when they're not sure about a certain point.

Hey SEEKING,

If you get a chance to broach the subject with your parents, I'd be interested in an update - if that's an appropriate request (no pressure, just interested).

Thanks.

Hey SEEKING,

If you get a chance to broach the subject with your parents, I'd be interested in an update - if that's an appropriate request (no pressure, just interested).

Thanks.

Sure. I'll let you know. We'll be going to his church tomorrow night. We drive together so it may come up.