Whether we are believers or not, if we sin the only way given for salvation is according to Christs commandment given to his Disciples.

It is all through Jesus.

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christians have not cornered to market for Jesus.

It does not say if christians sin, it says "If any man sin".

Firstfruits

John was writing this letter to fellow believers in Christ.

"1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
Who is "children", "you", "ours"??? Who is "friends" spoken later? Brothers and sisters in Christ. We see this in the beginning of chapter 1. "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

John was writing this letter to fellow believers in Christ.

"1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
Who is "children", "you", "ours"??? Who is "friends" spoken later? Brothers and sisters in Christ. We see this in the beginning of chapter 1. "And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."

I agree that John was speaking to believers however there is one advocate for all sinners, as is stated in the scripture.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin.

Firstfruits

I agree that John was speaking to believers however there is one advocate for all sinners, as is stated in the scripture.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If any man sin.

Firstfruits
First of all, as I said, this was written to those already in Christ, and it is a primary Jewish audience (remember the Jewish mentality was that it was THEIR savior...)

To begin, "kosmos" is the Greek used for world. If you know what it means, great, but in a nutshell it was used interchangeably as small or localized (area or people) and also widespread or complete (area or people). The problem is the English language does not have an equivalent, so they just chose the latter variation and translated it world.
See John 12:19 for a specific localized example that comes to mind. We know this word does not always mean "literally the entire world of all people".

So, that eliminates that word as defining this passage. We have to go to context to understand the usage of that word.


Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

First of all, as I said, this was written to those already in Christ, and it is a primary Jewish audience (remember the Jewish mentality was that it was THEIR savior...)

To begin, "kosmos" is the Greek used for world. If you know what it means, great, but in a nutshell it was used interchangeably as small or localized (area or people) and also widespread or complete (area or people). The problem is the English language does not have an equivalent, so they just chose the latter variation and translated it world.
See John 12:19 for a specific localized example that comes to mind. We know this word does not always mean "literally the entire world of all people".

So, that eliminates that word as defining this passage. We have to go to context to understand the usage of that word.


Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

The message is the same for all, whether Jew or Gentile, all unrighteousness is sin. As it says "if any man sin"

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus is the mediater between God and man.

Firstfruits

I send an email out to all the people I work with.
"If anyone needs help with ____ today I shall be available between X and X".

Does that literally mean all persons in the world or is it dependent upon audience, you think?

Hey, TexUs, your fingers and hands must be sore.:idea::lol:

Almost 200 posts in 7 days....whew!! I've enjoyed what you've had to say...so keep it up though.

I send an email out to all the people I work with.
"If anyone needs help with ____ today I shall be available between X and X".

Does that literally mean all persons in the world or is it dependent upon audience, you think?

It states "if any man sin" It also states "for the whole world".

Firstfruits

Hey, TexUs, your fingers and hands must be sore.:idea::lol:

Almost 200 posts in 7 days....whew!! I've enjoyed what you've had to say...so keep it up though.
:D


It states "if any man sin" It also states "for the whole world".

Firstfruits
You are not reading what I'm saying, and you did not answer my question.

I've already shown you the second half, "world"- is not what you think it means.
I've also already shown you that "any man" isn't what you think it means, either.

Best case for you is that there's a draw and it can be taken either way. However I don't think, given the audience of the letter, that's the case.

If you want to ignore those things (which come from a study of the text rather than just reading at face value), then that's your choice.

:D


You are not reading what I'm saying, and you did not answer my question.

I've already shown you the second half, "world"- is not what you think it means.
I've also already shown you that "any man" isn't what you think it means, either.

Best case for you is that there's a draw and it can be taken either way. However I don't think, given the audience of the letter, that's the case.

If you want to ignore those things (which come from a study of the text rather than just reading at face value), then that's your choice.

So Jesus stops being the mediator between God and man for sin except for believers? I would rather accept what is written at face value.

2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I take it that you do not agree with that which is written, as though there is something hidden?

What do you say?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Firstfruits

So Jesus stops being the mediator between God and man for sin except for believers? I would rather accept what is written at face value.
That's exactly right.
You think Jesus will still intercede for these men?
"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matt 7:23

You can accept whatever you want to accept but the fact is Christ won't intercede for those not in him.

If Jesus is not an advocate for the whole world, and is only for believers then how do we explain the following?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Believers do not need an advocate.


Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mk 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Firstfruits

So what exactly is your point in all this, Firstfruits?

I doubt you're arguing in favor of universalism (that "the whole world" will be saved)... so what exactly is it you are arguing for?

That's exactly right.
You think Jesus will still intercede for these men?
"I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" Matt 7:23

You can accept whatever you want to accept but the fact is Christ won't intercede for those not in him.

So then if you sin as do those in the world you do not expect Jesus to to save you once you have repented?

Firstfruits

So what exactly is your point in all this, Firstfruits?

I doubt you're arguing in favor of universalism (that "the whole world" will be saved)... so what exactly is it you are arguing for?

Jesus is the advocate fore to whole world, otherwise how would we that were unbelievers be saved if not for Jesus, our advocate.

Firstfruits

Okay. So... where's the matter of contention? That sounds like the same thing everyone else has been saying so far. So where's the disagreement here?

If Jesus is not an advocate for the whole world, and is only for believers then how do we explain the following?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It doesn't say all men.
Christ is SUFFICIENT for every man, woman, and child on earth. He is only EFFECTIVE for the believers.


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Again, nowhere is this everyone.



1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

"Our" sins, who is "we", "our", etc? I've already explained this once.



Believers do not need an advocate.
No? Prove it Biblically. Heck, I can disprove that statement just by your own-quoted verses of scripture.





You're basically advocating that anyone, Christ-follower or not, is saved, or at least I don't understand what your purpose is outside of that, then. That's not Biblical at all. There are tons of verses through scripture but here's just a sampling:

Matthew 5:
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."






John 10:11,15; “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep.”
Matthew 25:32; “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
Seems like in these two parallel verses he's separating the believers from non believers.



Ephesians 5:25; “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”
He gave himself up for WHO? The Church- the believers.


John 17:9; “I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”

Okay. So... where's the matter of contention? That sounds like the same thing everyone else has been saying so far. So where's the disagreement here?

Tell me what you understand Texux to be saying in the following?

First of all, as I said, this was written to those already in Christ, and it is a primary Jewish audience (remember the Jewish mentality was that it was THEIR savior...)

To begin, "kosmos" is the Greek used for world. If you know what it means, great, but in a nutshell it was used interchangeably as small or localized (area or people) and also widespread or complete (area or people). The problem is the English language does not have an equivalent, so they just chose the latter variation and translated it world.
See John 12:19 for a specific localized example that comes to mind. We know this word does not always mean "literally the entire world of all people".

So, that eliminates that word as defining this passage. We have to go to context to understand the usage of that word.


Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

It doesn't say all men.
Christ is SUFFICIENT for every man, woman, and child on earth. He is only EFFECTIVE for the believers.


Again, nowhere is this everyone.


"Our" sins, who is "we", "our", etc? I've already explained this once.


No? Prove it Biblically. Heck, I can disprove that statement just by your own-quoted verses of scripture.





You're basically advocating that anyone, Christ-follower or not, is saved, or at least I don't understand what your purpose is outside of that, then. That's not Biblical at all. There are tons of verses through scripture but here's just a sampling:

Matthew 5:
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."






John 10:11,15; “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep.”
Matthew 25:32; “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
Seems like in these two parallel verses he's separating the believers from non believers.



Ephesians 5:25; “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”
He gave himself up for WHO? The Church- the believers.


John 17:9; “I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”

Then since you were not always saved, the following does not apply to you, Jesus did not come for you. If Jesus came for you then he came for the whole world.

Mt 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Mk 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Firstfruits

Tell me what you understand Texux to be saying in the following?TexUs was saying that John, in writing to a Jewish audience, was telling his fellows Jews that the salvation Jesus offers is not only for the Jews (i.e. "not for our's only), but for the Gentiles as well (i.e. "but also for the sins of the whole world"). In other words, "if any man sin", regardless of whether they are a Jew or a Gentile, he can still receive Jesus' offer of salvation.

Additionally, TexUs was also pointing out that while Jesus' offer for salvation is available to all people, only those who accept that salvation will have Jesus as their Advocate. The phrase "any man" has to be interpreted contextually. Jesus doesn't advocate unrepentant sinners. Hence, "any man" cannot include the unrepentant sinners. John is saying that if "any man" of us sins, then Jesus will be our Advocate before the Father, showing that we have received his salvation, and thusly that our sins do not condemn us.

Do you agree with that?

Did Jesus not die for the whole world?

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Does "whosoever" not mean "whosoever"?

Jn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Firstfruits

You didn't answer my question.

TexUs was saying that John, in writing to a Jewish audience, was telling his fellows Jews that the salvation Jesus offers is not only for the Jews (i.e. "not for our's only), but for the Gentiles as well (i.e. "but also for the sins of the whole world"). In other words, "if any man sin", regardless of whether they are a Jew or a Gentile, he can still receive Jesus' offer of salvation.

Additionally, TexUs was also pointing out that while Jesus' offer for salvation is available to all people, only those who accept that salvation will have Jesus as their Advocate. The phrase "any man" has to be interpreted contextually. Jesus doesn't advocate unrepentant sinners. Hence, "any man" cannot include the unrepentant sinners. John is saying that if "any man" of us sins, then Jesus will be our Advocate before the Father, showing that we have received his salvation, and thusly that our sins do not condemn us.

Do you agree with that?

What then do you understand by "if any man sin"? Are we expecting believers to sin since that is what Jesus is there for. What will Jesus say if we sin and do not repent, will we still be accepted by God on the word of Christ?

Firstfruits

How many "sinless perfection" threads can we possible have.

Isn't this around number 87 in the last 2 weeks?

Our answers don't change just because the name of the thread does.

You didn't answer my question.

Repentance from sin is a requirement for all sinners, Jesus is an advocate if we sin.

Who has not sinned?

Firstfruits

You still didn't answer my question.


Are we expecting believers to sinYes, I fully expect believers to sin. I don't want them to, but it is inevitable, given our human nature. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."


since that is what Jesus is there for.
Jesus forgives our sins, and Advocates for us before the Father when we sin. Our innate sinfulness doesn't suddenly disappear the moment we are saved.


What will Jesus say if we sin and do not repent, will we still be accepted by God on the word of Christ?"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

How many "sinless perfection" threads can we possible have.

Isn't this around number 87 in the last 2 weeks?

Our answers don't change just because the name of the thread does.

This is not about sinnless perfection, this is about Jesus being an advocate if we sin.

Firstfruits

You still didn't answer my question.

Yes, I fully expect believers to sin. I don't want them to, but it is inevitable, given our human nature. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."


Jesus forgives our sins, and Advocates for us before the Father when we sin. Our innate sinfulness doesn't suddenly disappear the moment we are saved.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Then Jesus is our advocate if we sin and that is for all.

Firstfruits

Right. So, again, where is the disagreement? I can't see where anyone contradicted that sentiment.

Mark, I'm with you on this deal...
I've got no idea where he's headed or what he's promoting but he's definitely got an agenda, and we just done know.
OP- Either you need to come out and say what you're getting at or myself (And I'd suspect others) will be done with this thread.

However, I might see something forming here so I might take a shot at it.


Then since you were not always saved, the following does not apply to you, Jesus did not come for you. If Jesus came for you then he came for the whole world.

I think OP might be saying since WE ARE ALL SINNERS, that if Christ did not come to intercede for SINNERS (since we are ALL sinners) that he did indeed come for ALL the world.
I think that's what you're getting at???

That being the case, well... My response to that is: predestination.

Christ came, died, and intercedes for the Elect:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I could see where this might be a problem if you're a free will person, however I being Calvinist and all, this isn't an issue for me at all. I'm assuming OP is free-will?

Right. So, again, where is the disagreement? I can't see where anyone contradicted that sentiment.

Is the following only concering the children of God and not the whole world? Have I taken what TexUs has said the worng way?

Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

Is the following only concering the children of God and not the whole world? Have I taken what TexUs has said the worng way?

Second, I could also argue, more on my personal opinion, but this is also a reference of "not for our's [Jewish], but also for the sins of the whole world [Gentile as well]"
John Chapter 11 helps to illustrate my view... "he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."
So if you take that and apply it to this passage, "not for our's [the nation's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world [those scattered abroad]"

How do we become children of God?

Firstfruits