If the collection for the saints has been diverted and used other than its intended purpose, is that the same as defrauding?

Mk 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

1 Cor 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1 Cor 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

Just wanted to point out that the 1 Cor 7:5 reference has more to do with a husband and a wife withholding something from each other. Not sure if that's really defrauding, as they are both in agreement.

Mark 10 is "don't cheat!"

1 Cor 7 is about husbands and wives, and Paul is saying not to abstain from sex except for short periods of time with mutual consent.

I don't see how the collection of the saints has anything to do with "defrauding" in either passage.

But, in general terms, to take money given for one purpose and to use it for another is defrauding those who gave the money to start with.

Thanks, I knew that the follwong twas mainly concerning husband and wives; 1 Cor 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

The main issue/point is wether or not taking the collection for the saints and using it for another purpose is defrauding.

If the poor saints do not recieve what is collected for them are they not being defrauded?

Mk 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

God bless!

firstfruits

I already answered that I thought, but now I'm going to change my answer!

NO, IF money is collected for distribution to "poor saints," and that money is not in fact distributed to them but is used for some other purpose, the poor saints are not being defrauded, but the people who gave the offering are.

Fraud means that you say something with the intention that people believe what you say and then act in reliance on your representation to their detriment.

Here, you say "Give me money and I'll give it to the poor saints."
The listener believes you, relies on your words, and gives you money to give to the poor saints.
You use the money to buy a new car for yourself.
You have defrauded those who gave, but not the poor saints.

I'm really concerned that a verse like that in 1 Corinthians 7:5 would be lifted out of context and used to support a completely different doctrine.

I already answered that I thought, but now I'm going to change my answer!

NO, IF money is collected for distribution to "poor saints," and that money is not in fact distributed to them but is used for some other purpose, the poor saints are not being defrauded, but the people who gave the offering are.

Fraud means that you say something with the intention that people believe what you say and then act in reliance on your representation to their detriment.

Here, you say "Give me money and I'll give it to the poor saints."
The listener believes you, relies on your words, and gives you money to give to the poor saints.
You use the money to buy a new car for yourself.
You have defrauded those who gave, but not the poor saints.

I agree with what you say except that I would say that the poor saints are being defrauded by those doing the defrauding.

Defraud:
: to deprive of something by deception or fraud

God bless you!

Firstfruits

If the collection for the saints has been diverted and used other than its intended purpose, is that the same as defrauding?

Mk 10:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

1 Cor 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1 Cor 16:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

You need to be a little more clear with the details. In general, all offerings and tithes are given at "arms length" which means if its intended purpose (such as a project) is no longer viable, the funds can be used where most needed. Are you talking about an activity that goes against your by-laws that requires a congregational vote?

You need to be a little more clear with the details. In general, all offerings and tithes are given at "arms length" which means if its intended purpose (such as a project) is no longer viable, the funds can be used where most needed. Are you talking about an activity that goes against your by-laws that requires a congregational vote?

According to the following it is for the saints;

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

This is not about how much we give but what the collection is for and what it is if it does not go where it was purposed to go.

To keep from possessing or enjoying; deny:

Firstfruits

By-laws, congregational votes... hard to imagine today's churches would even be recognized by the apostles.

Back to the topic of the thread: no need to get hung up on the definition of "defraud." If people give money earmarked to a certain purpose and the leadership of the church diverts it to other purposes without the consent of the givers, that's dishonest. Church leadership must be transparent, especially in financial matters.

According to the following it is for the saints;

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

This is not about how much we give but what the collection is for and what it is if it does not go where it was purposed to go.

To keep from possessing or enjoying; deny:

Firstfruits

Wait.

Are you making a blanket assumption that ALL funds collected by a congregation must be given ONLY to the poor? If so, this is not what Paul was doing in his collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem, which was a very specific thing.

To defraud those who have given for a certain intent is to keep all that is offered for other purposes. Only the giver is defrauded.

But, as in this case,


Malachi 3:
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. _ "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' _ "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me.

They gave only a portion in tithes and offerings, and kept the rest for themselves. They were defrauding God. They got caught (naturally) and were charged with robbery.

Now, if the people had tithed with the intent that the entire tithe would go to God, and the people in charge of the tithe gave a portion to God and kept the rest for other purposes, Then the people in charge defrauded both the people and God.

By-laws, congregational votes... hard to imagine today's churches would even be recognized by the apostles.

Back to the topic of the thread: no need to get hung up on the definition of "defraud." If people give money earmarked to a certain purpose and the leadership of the church diverts it to other purposes without the consent of the givers, that's dishonest. Church leadership must be transparent, especially in financial matters.

I agree,

Thank you!

FF

Wait.

Are you making a blanket assumption that ALL funds collected by a congregation must be given ONLY to the poor? If so, this is not what Paul was doing in his collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem, which was a very specific thing.

No I am not, If it is collected for the poor saints as stated in the scripture, then it should be given to the poor saints.

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

To defraud those who have given for a certain intent is to keep all that is offered for other purposes. Only the giver is defrauded.

But, as in this case,


Malachi 3:
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. _ "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' _ "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me.

They gave only a portion in tithes and offerings, and kept the rest for themselves. They were defrauding God. They got caught (naturally) and were charged with robbery.

Now, if the people had tithed with the intent that the entire tithe would go to God, and the people in charge of the tithe gave a portion to God and kept the rest for other purposes, Then the people in charge defrauded both the people and God.

So in this case where the collection is for the saints, if the saints are not given what is collected are they being robbed?

Firstfruits

Any chance you would consider giving more specific details?

No. It doesn't belong to them to start with, so they aren't being robbed. You can only be robbed of something you already possess.

How many different way can we say "IF a collection is taken for a specific purpose and then not used for that purpose, then YES, such an action is wrong.

So in this case where the collection is for the saints, if the saints are not given what is collected are they being robbed?

Firstfruits

If all the funds were not given, the no. If the givers kept all the money that they collected for themselves, then they have not defrauded anyone. They may have deceived themselves, but it's not fraud.

If a group or organization had collected donations for a charitable cause, took all the money and took a cruise, they defrauded the donators.

If the organization had given a portion of the donations to the charitable cause, but TOLD them it was all the proceeds, the organization has defrauded both.

Now in Malachi, if God had been speaking to the priests that were responsible for the tithes and offerings and the priests had withheld a portion for themselves, the priests would have defrauded both the people and God, if their intent was to convince God and the people that thy had given all. (whew)

No. It doesn't belong to them to start with, so they aren't being robbed. You can only be robbed of something you already possess.

But it is being collected for the saints on the first day of the week, so wether they have received it or not it is for them.

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

How many different way can we say "IF a collection is taken for a specific purpose and then not used for that purpose, then YES, such an action is wrong.

The specific purpose here is the "collection for the saints" Those saint that are less well off than other saints.

Firstfruits

If all the funds were not given, the no. If the givers kept all the money that they collected for themselves, then they have not defrauded anyone. They may have deceived themselves, but it's not fraud.

If a group or organization had collected donations for a charitable cause, took all the money and took a cruise, they defrauded the donators.

If the organization had given a portion of the donations to the charitable cause, but TOLD them it was all the proceeds, the organization has defrauded both.

Now in Malachi, if God had been speaking to the priests that were responsible for the tithes and offerings and the priests had withheld a portion for themselves, the priests would have defrauded both the people and God, if their intent was to convince God and the people that thy had given all. (whew)

If you know that the collection for the saints, collected on the first day of the week according to the order given was not given to the saints then do agree that those that do not receive what has been collected are being defrauded/deprived?

Firstfruits

If the collection for the saints has been diverted and used other than its intended purpose, is that the same as defrauding?

I think this kind of question opens up a lot of grey areas but could equally be very clear-cut, depending on exactly who is diverting, the intentions of the giver, and any expected allocations of the money given.

If the minister takes the money out of the collection plate and uses it for his own purposes that's a clear-cut case of theft. If the collection was explicitly for the purpose of supporting the minister then I would expect the money to show up in the church accounts as money given and then given to the minister.

If a collection was held to support a specific cause and the money from the collection was then given to anything other than the stated cause then I'd say that was also fraud, but again subject to the proviso that there wasn't a valid reason for the change and that wherever the money did go was closely related to the original cause. (As an example, our church supports a mission in Peru that needed about $50,000 to build a medical centre for the community. We raised about $10,000 of it and so would expect that $10k to go towards the medical centre. If by then the $50k had already been raised I'd regard it as perfectly acceptable for the $10k to go towards some other project at the mission, but putting the $10k into general church funds would be inappropriate)

If someone puts money in the collection with an idea of what they might like it to be used for (but no statement of the intended use) then unless the collection is specifically allocated to a specific fund then I don't think they can complain if it does end up being used in ways they didn't envisage, as long as it's in line with the church's mission.

I think this kind of question opens up a lot of grey areas but could equally be very clear-cut, depending on exactly who is diverting, the intentions of the giver, and any expected allocations of the money given.

If the minister takes the money out of the collection plate and uses it for his own purposes that's a clear-cut case of theft. If the collection was explicitly for the purpose of supporting the minister then I would expect the money to show up in the church accounts as money given and then given to the minister.

If a collection was held to support a specific cause and the money from the collection was then given to anything other than the stated cause then I'd say that was also fraud, but again subject to the proviso that there wasn't a valid reason for the change and that wherever the money did go was closely related to the original cause. (As an example, our church supports a mission in Peru that needed about $50,000 to build a medical centre for the community. We raised about $10,000 of it and so would expect that $10k to go towards the medical centre. If by then the $50k had already been raised I'd regard it as perfectly acceptable for the $10k to go towards some other project at the mission, but putting the $10k into general church funds would be inappropriate)

If someone puts money in the collection with an idea of what they might like it to be used for (but no statement of the intended use) then unless the collection is specifically allocated to a specific fund then I don't think they can complain if it does end up being used in ways they didn't envisage, as long as it's in line with the church's mission.

Thank you, Tango,

So with the understanding that the collection taken upon the first day of the week is for the saints as purposed in our heart to give unless there is agreement for it used otherwise than as stated (for the saints) it is fraud?

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

Thank you, Tango,

So with the understanding that the collection taken upon the first day of the week is for the saints as purposed in our heart to give unless there is agreement for it used otherwise than as stated (for the saints) it is fraud?

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits


I think this passage is best read in context:

1Co 16:1-5 NKJV Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: (2) On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. (3) And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem. (4) But if it is fitting that I go also, they will go with me. (5) Now I will come to you when I pass through Macedonia (for I am passing through Macedonia).

Had Paul taken the gift and disappeared with it, doing something other than "bearing (their) gift to Jerusalem" then I'd agree that would be fraud. In generic terms if a collection is taken up for a very specific purpose (as opposed to the usual Sunday collection for general church funds) and then not used for that purpose I'd say that the congregation would have a right to know why. I suppose in a more legal sense "fraud" would imply a misrepresentation, for example the congregation being told the collection was for an orphanage in Bolivia when there was no intention to send the money to the orphanage. If the collection was taken for the orphanage and only later the church found out that the orphanage had closed down then to reassign the funds to a similar project would, in my opinion, not be fraud.

Thank you, Tango,

So with the understanding that the collection taken upon the first day of the week is for the saints as purposed in our heart to give unless there is agreement for it used otherwise than as stated (for the saints) it is fraud?

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Firstfruits

It sounds like you are trying to make the assumption that in today's modern church the Sunday (first day of the week) Offering should ONLY be allocated to the poor saints. Is that what you are trying to say???

It sounds like you are trying to make the assumption that in today's modern church the Sunday (first day of the week) Offering should ONLY be allocated to the poor saints. Is that what you are trying to say???

That's what I am reading at this point as well. Clarification on this point would be useful.

If you know that the collection for the saints, collected on the first day of the week according to the order given was not given to the saints then do agree that those that do not receive what has been collected are being defrauded/deprived?

Firstfruits

Deprived yes, defrauded no. Defrauding is stealing by deception. It isn't robbing from the saints either.

It could be construed as fraud if the saints were told to expect something and didn't receive it.

It sounds like you are trying to make the assumption that in today's modern church the Sunday (first day of the week) Offering should ONLY be allocated to the poor saints. Is that what you are trying to say???

It does state the collection FOR the saints as ordered, so I have to say yes.

Firstfruits

That's what I am reading at this point as well. Clarification on this point would be useful.

The collection taken on the first day of the week according to what is written is for the saints, if a collcetion for another purpose is required then it must be made clear what a collection is for as in the collection for the saints.

Firstfruits

Deprived yes, defrauded no. Defrauding is stealing by deception. It isn't robbing from the saints either.

It could be construed as fraud if the saints were told to expect something and didn't receive it.

If the poor saint are being deprived of what has been collected for them, how are they not being robbed?

Firstfruits

Since we're unlikely to stumble upon the point you'll dance us towards over several pages with leading questions....

Is your point that most churches are "fraudulent" because they take tithes on Sunday and use that money for anything else than provision of the poor?

If the poor saint are being deprived of what has been collected for them, how are they not being robbed?

Firstfruits

I have a feeling your insistent on feeling sorry for the poor saints, no matter what. Is it wrong that the saints don't have enough money? Yes. No matter what the reason.

The only way of remedying your concern is to do what many people do. Give five percent to the church and walk the other five percent down and give it to the poor saints.

From what I hear though, you can't be a real saint though until you've given away all you possess. So are we taking away anyone's sainthood by making sure they have funds?

The collection taken on the first day of the week according to what is written is for the saints, if a collcetion for another purpose is required then it must be made clear what a collection is for as in the collection for the saints.

Firstfruitsis there another collection mentioned in scripture?

1 Cor 7:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1 Cor 7:3-5 is about marital relationships: The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Since we're unlikely to stumble upon the point you'll dance us towards over several pages with leading questions....

Is your point that most churches are "fraudulent" because they take tithes on Sunday and use that money for anything else than provision of the poor?

The point is that the collection taken on the first day of the week is for the poor saints.

Firstfruits

1 Cor 7:3-5 is about marital relationships: The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Thanks, yes I understand that, however it point out that unless there is agreement not to do something then it is defrauding.

Firstfruits

Are you talking all or part of the collection?

Who's in charge of distribution of funds?

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your tithes go?

What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church)

is there another collection mentioned in scripture?

The following is the same and is that which accompanies salvation.

2 Corinthians 9:1-13

1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.

3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:

4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.

5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)

11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Are you talking all or part of the collection?

Who's in charge of distribution of funds?

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your tithes go?

What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church)

This scripture states it is for the saints, so unless you choose to have another collection for another purpose it is for the saints.

Firstfruits

Nehemiah 13:11-13 (New International Version)

11 So I rebuked the officials and asked them, "Why is the house of God neglected?" Then I called them together and stationed them at their posts.

12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms. 13 I put Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the scribe, and a Levite named Pedaiah in charge of the storerooms and made Hanan son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah, their assistant, because these men were considered trustworthy. They were made responsible for distributing the supplies to their brothers.

Someone is always responsible. Want your questions answered?

Do like I do. You usually have to begin with the assistant, or at least that's the norm. If the answer is not to your satisfaction, ask to speak to their supervisor. You'll eventually end up talking to (in this example) the priest, who is the overseer.

If you don't like the justification, I see no reason why you can't be in charge of your tithing. If you want something done right, or at least to your satisfaction, do it yourself.

The following is the same and is that which accompanies salvation.OK, but is there any other collection mentioned in the NT?

Nehemiah 13:11-13 (New International Version)

11 So I rebuked the officials and asked them, "Why is the house of God neglected?" Then I called them together and stationed them at their posts.

12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and oil into the storerooms. 13 I put Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the scribe, and a Levite named Pedaiah in charge of the storerooms and made Hanan son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah, their assistant, because these men were considered trustworthy. They were made responsible for distributing the supplies to their brothers.

Someone is always responsible. Want your questions answered?

Do like I do. You usually have to begin with the assistant, or at least that's the norm. If the answer is not to your satisfaction, ask to speak to their supervisor. You'll eventually end up talking to (in this example) the priest, who is the overseer.

If you don't like the justification, I see no reason why you can't be in charge of your tithing. If you want something done right, or at least to your satisfaction, do it yourself.

Why is the collection for the saint linked with tithing, other than the fact that it is up to you if you want to give a tenth to the poor saints?

Firstfruits

OK, but is there any other collection mentioned in the NT?

As far as I know all the scriptures that speak of a collection refer to the poor saints.

If you would like them I will post them for you. They start in Acts and go all the way to 1 John. This is what will abound or build your account.

God bless you!

You cannot take a specific instruction to the church at Corinth out of context and apply it to all churches. If memory serves me correctly, Paul, at one time, told them not to give at all...

You cannot take a specific instruction to the church at Corinth out of context and apply it to all churches. If memory serves me correctly, Paul, at one time, told them not to give at all...

How may I ask is it taken out of context?

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The same order applied to the churches of Galatia.

Even so do ye!

Firstfruits

Well you had better save all of your offerings until Paul comes then... :B

Well you had better save all of your offerings until Paul comes then... :B

There is nothing wrong with collecting for other purposes, but what ever it is collected for should go to where it has been purposed.

Firstfruits

Why is the collection for the saint linked with tithing, other than the fact that it is up to you if you want to give a tenth to the poor saints?

Firstfruits

Giving for the saints and tithing. Is there an exceptional method of collecting and keeping track of and distributing the funds, that I missed somewhere?

As far as I know all the scriptures that speak of a collection refer to the poor saints.

If you would like them I will post them for you. They start in Acts and go all the way to 1 John. This is what will abound or build your account.

God bless you!Yes, and I'm not doubting you but I think for the sake of the discussion it would be good if you post them all, don't you?

How may I ask is it taken out of context?

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The same order applied to the churches of Galatia.

Even so do ye!

FirstfruitsCorrect!.............

Well you had better save all of your offerings until Paul comes then... :BYou don't have any in 'need' near you? Really?

....think again!

Giving for the saints and tithing. Is there an exceptional method of collecting and keeping track of and distributing the funds, that I missed somewhere?Is there any saints who are not lazy and work near you that are lacking anything? If the anwer is yes, then someone dropped the ball, friend.

Why is the collection for the saint linked with tithing, other than the fact that it is up to you if you want to give a tenth to the poor saints?

Firstfruitswere is this link?

As far as I know all the scriptures that speak of a collection refer to the poor saints.

If you would like them I will post them for you. They start in Acts and go all the way to 1 John. This is what will abound or build your account.

God bless you!Actually, it was for the victims of the famine in Judea.

Is there any saints who are not lazy and work near you that are lacking anything? If the answer is yes, then someone dropped the ball, friend.

Don't exactly know the purpose of this post.
Is the question and answer directed at me, my neighborhood churches, or is it just a generalized thing.

The question OP happens to be on the collecting.

I have never been responsible for collecting, but I have been on the giving AND receiving end of such collecting, so sharpen your finger and point it in a new direction, friend.

I wasn't pointing my finger, friend. I'm speaking to, and asking, all in general.
The OP has to do with a specific collection. I have repeatedly asked for any other collection in the NT and have had no reply.
It was said there is a link to this collection and tithes. Correct me if I am wrong but you seemed to agree. I asked where that link is, and have had no reply.
You asked if all of this collection/tithe was for the saints. Of course it is! Special or not!
You posted an OT reference concerning the temple made with hands and storehouse distribution under the law. I'd like to know how that is relevant....
1) to the OP's special collection for the NT temple -the body of Christ
2) any other NT giving and distribution to the NT temple -the body of
Certainly "the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel". I'm not disputing that 'need'.
I understand giving to the 'trusted' for 'proper' distribution. Not disputing that either.
However, based on the OP, throughout the NT the purpose of giving was always so no member of the body was left 'in need'. It is indeed for the temple. So I very much question the obvious. Which is what the 'trusted' think is a need when I see so many brothers/sisters that give, in need!

Someone may say the answer to that is to reserve 5% of your 10% and give it appropriately. I don't buy it. The answer is not to skirt around the problem and turn a blind eye. The problem is the 'trusted' that have proven they are not. The answer is to get some that really are trusted and have the Lord's priorities as their own, or go and give somewhere that does. I cannot knowingly give where I know the money is not properly being distributed. That's not being a good steward. It's like giving to the devil and robbing God.

If the collection for the saints has been diverted and used other than its intended purpose, is that the same as defrauding?

Now there are no recorded specifics when it comes to defrauding the collections for the saints in Scripture

If you would like to know what God thinks of people who divert and use other than its intended purpose...



Acts 5
Ananias and Sapphira
1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?" _ "Yes," she said, "that is the price."
9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."
10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.

Was there deception involved, was the diversion covert, and discovered? Are you inferring that the "defrauder" was like Ananias and Sapphira, the givers, who may have announced that they had laid up say, 5% of their income, and yes this amount is all, and really it was only a portion and they kept the rest for something else?

Or was it the collectors who just happened to "pocket" 10% of the collection for "administrative" costs, and told the recipients that the sum was all that was collected?

The bottom line is, God doesn't view it as defrauding, nor deceiving, or even robbing.

You have not lied to men but to God.

So (correct me if I'm not understanding) you think it is ok to pocket a percentage and act like it was never given?
ok well it's just a lie?

Giving for the saints and tithing. Is there an exceptional method of collecting and keeping track of and distributing the funds, that I missed somewhere?

Is tithing what you purpose in your heart to give or what God has commanded to give?

Is tithing not done at the end of the third year?

Deut 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Firstfruits

Giving for the saints and tithing. Is there an exceptional method of collecting and keeping track of and distributing the funds, that I missed somewhere?

As far as scripture states it is according to the following.

2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Firstfruits

Actually, it was for the victims of the famine in Judea.

Should we not remember any other poor saint?

Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Firstfruits

So (correct me if I'm not understanding) you think it is ok to pocket a percentage and act like it was never given?
ok well it's just a lie?

You're not understanding. To defraud, (and that was the original question, is stealing by deception. To deceive is to lie about it. Men have ways of dealing with it. There's even Scripture instructing us as to how to deal with it. FirstFruits question, I'm assuming, is not whether it's wrong, but rather defining the type of crime it was so as to learn the proper way of dealing with it. Were the poor saints defrauded. Man will deal with mans wrongs in his own way.

The ultimate problem here is not that men,(or poor saints) have been wronged.

Ultimately, as in the case of collecting or tithing, the real offended is God.

Throughout this entire thread, I have heard seldom, if any, references to God and where He fits into all this.

Hence my point, You have not lied to men but to God.

Yes, and I'm not doubting you but I think for the sake of the discussion it would be good if you post them all, don't you?

Acts 2:42-47
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 4:31-37
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Acts 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Cor 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2 Cor 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2 Cor 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

1 Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

1 Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1 Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

I hope that helps.

God bless!

Firstfruits

You're not understanding. To defraud, (and that was the original question, is stealing by deception. To deceive is to lie about it. Men have ways of dealing with it. There's even Scripture instructing us as to how to deal with it. FirstFruits question, I'm assuming, is not whether it's wrong, but rather defining the type of crime it was so as to learning the proper way of dealing with it. Were the poor saints defrauded. Man will deal with mans wrongs in his own way.

The ultimate problem here is not that men,(or poor saints have been wronged.

Ultimately, as in the case of collecting or tithing, the real offended is God.

Throughout this entire thread, I have heard seldom, if any references to God and where He fits into all this.

Hence my point, You have not lied to men but to God.

If the person offended when the saints do not receive what has been collected for them is God, is that not robbing God?

Firstfruits

If the person offended when the saints do not receive what has been collected for them is God, is that not robbing God?

Firstfruits

I believe I said that it is lying to God. If you want to put your own spin on it, feel free.

I believe I said that it is lying to God. If you want to put your own spin on it, feel free.

I take it that you will agree that it is not right to offend God, or to hurt your poor brethren, by withhoding from them what is theirs?

Firstfruits

I take it that you will agree that it is not right to offend God, or to hurt your poor brethren, by withhoding from them what is theirs?

Firstfruits

I have continually agreed with that.
I've been trying to address the original question though. Defrauding. In order for anyone to answer your original question, there are pertinent questions that would need to be answered. I've asked them. Referring back to post #39,

Are you talking all or part of the collection?

Who's in charge of distribution of funds?

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your offering to the collection go? (blue highlight corrected from the original to meed your requirements)

What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church)

Since you have decided these questions aren't somehow necessary to answer, I've had to limit my responses to the more generic.

I have continually agreed with that.
I've been trying to address the original question though. Defrauding. In order for anyone to answer your original question, there are pertinent questions that would need to be answered. I've asked them. Referring back to post #39,

Are you talking all or part of the collection?

Who's in charge of distribution of funds?

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your offering to the collection go? (blue highlight corrected from the original to meed your requirements)

What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church)

Since you have decided these questions aren't somehow necessary to answer, I've had to limit my responses to the more generic.

Are you talking all or part of the collection? Yes, as it is for the saints, it does not mention where it is divided for any other purpose.

Who's in charge of distribution of funds? Those in charge of the distribution are resposible to ensure that what is collected for the saints goes to the saints.

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your offering to the collection go? (blue highlight corrected from the original to meed your requirements) Jesus said that the poor we will always have so it will always be needed.
What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church) It is general. Mt 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Firstfruits

If we know, that unless otherwise stated that that which is collected upon the first day of the week is for the poor saints. and we give accordingly, then not to give the poor their collection are we guilty of not having compassion for the poor?

2 Cor 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

1 Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

God bless!

Firstfruits

Are you talking all or part of the collection? Yes, as it is for the saints, it does not mention where it is divided for any other purpose.

Who's in charge of distribution of funds? Those in charge of the distribution are resposible to ensure that what is collected for the saints goes to the saints.

Was there a list of recipients attached to anything showing where your offering to the collection go? (blue highlight corrected from the original to meed your requirements) Jesus said that the poor we will always have so it will always be needed.
What do you consider "poor saints"?

Is this personal? (your church) It is general. Mt 26:11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Firstfruits

Might I point out one thing that needs clarification.

You've been talking two different groups of people.

There are the poor saints. (believers) When Paul was speaking of the poor saints, he was referring to,

Romans 15:
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Jerusalem is the only established church, that we have a record of, where it was necessary for other churches to take up an offering to support their poor people.

Now are you transposing the established church in Jerusalem into a current situation?
One of my questions (that you didn't answer) was, What do you consider the poor saints?

If you consider collection for the poor saints, is a collection for established churches in need, great, we're getting somewhere.

But you also referenced Matthew 26:11
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

The poor in this case are all inclusive. They are all the poor. ANYONE in need.

There's on one hand, take care of the poor, and on the other hand, collect for the poor saints.

Matthew 26:11 has nothing to do with the poor saints.

Wasn't the tithe in the Old Teatament used specifically to care for the temple and the priesthood?

Corners were left unharvested for gleaners to reap, those who could not feed themselves.

Might I point out one thing that needs clarification.

You've been talking two different groups of people.

There are the poor saints. (believers) When Paul was speaking of the poor saints, he was referring to,

Romans 15:
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Jerusalem is the only established church, that we have a record of, where it was necessary for other churches to take up an offering to support their poor people.

Now are you transposing the established church in Jerusalem into a current situation?
One of my questions (that you didn't answer) was, What do you consider the poor saints?

If you consider collection for the poor saints, is a collection for established churches in need, great, we're getting somewhere.

But you also referenced Matthew 26:11
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

The poor in this case are all inclusive. They are all the poor. ANYONE in need.

There's on one hand, take care of the poor, and on the other hand, collect for the poor saints.

Matthew 26:11 has nothing to do with the poor saints.

As far as I understand the poor saints are believers. Are we no longer to collect for the poor upon the first day of the week where ever their church may be located?

firstfruits

Wasn't the tithe in the Old Teatament used specifically to care for the temple and the priesthood?

Corners were left unharvested for gleaners to reap, those who could not feed themselves.

The collection here is according to what we have purposed in our heart to give, that may or may not be a tenth.

As brethren we are to show love one to another, so if we see a brother/sister and we can help but do not are do we really love as we should?

Firstfruits

But that is not a "tithe" is it? Isn't that a love or free will offering? i agree we are to care for those less fortunate than are we, but it isn't a tithe.

But that is not a "tithe" is it? Isn't that a love or free will offering? i agree we are to care for those less fortunate than are we, but it isn't a tithe.

I agree, it is a love/freewill offering. Not tithing.

Firstfruits

As far as I understand the poor saints are believers. Are we no longer to collect for the poor upon the first day of the week where ever their church may be located?

firstfruits

Originally, the poor saints were the original church in Jerusalem.. One church (with excess, or plenty) giving to another church in need.

It wasn't each church collecting for their own poor saints. That is handled internally.

It would be my understanding that, in todays world, most churches set up a separate fund that is commonly referred to as fund for an outreach program. A foreign missionary program which is usually poor and in need of donations.

This in modern day terms would be collecting for the poor saints.

Wasn't the tithe in the Old Teatament used specifically to care for the temple and the priesthood?Who is "the temple and the priesthood" in the NT?

Who is "the temple and the priesthood" in the NT?

Ah - now THAT'S a good question.

Who is "the temple and the priesthood" in the NT?

That would be the believer.

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Pet 2:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


Firstfruits

We have a duty to the poor brethren. This is why we are to remember them.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Matthew 25:34-40
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Thank you Ff for the awesome challenge and reminder!

Thank you Ff for the awesome challenge and reminder!

You are welcome Sirus.

God bless you!

Firstfruits