Chapter Nine

Matthew 6:13(b) But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the
Glory forever. Amen.

It seems important to say once again that Jesus only instructs us to pray exactly the Father’s will. We can know that when we pray what Jesus teaches us, the answer is yes. Always yes.

Jesus Himself prayed in John 17:14-15:
“I have given them Your word; and the world has
hated them because they are not of the world,
just as I am not of the world.
I do not pray that You should take them out of
the world, but that You should keep them from the
evil one.

Now our job, our goal is to discover what Jesus meant. How is it God’s will to keep us, to deliver us from the evil one?

Jesus stating that He does not pray we will be taken out of the world, but kept from the evil one tells us a lot.

This world is fallen and the evil one sways humanity to rebel against God.

1 John 5:18-21 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Let’s compare “Whoever is born of God does not sin” with 1 John 1:6-9.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we walk in the light we do not live a lifestyle of sin. “He who has been born of God keeps (guards) himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”

For five years my family attended a church where walking in the light, self control, repentance and yielding to the Holy Spirit were seldom mentioned or practiced.

Every teachings base was ‘Spiritual Warfare’. It was the theme of every meeting and several times a week the believers would gather to wage war against principalities and powers of darkness.

If someone was struggling in a specific area, such as anger, then the ‘spirit of anger’ would be rebuked and bound and victory claimed.

Oddly, this had to be done repeatedly. Somehow that ‘spirit of anger’ kept getting loose… and most sadly, the person struggling continued right on struggling. There was no freedom found.

Any sins, any annoyances, any trials, any inconveniences, any discomforts or disease were considered to come from the hand of the evil one and what we were to do was take authority over them, binding them in the name of Jesus.

The list of harassing spirits is endless. From the spirit of lust, the spirit of chocolate cake to the spirit of tooth decay and frivolity. (That’s the one that makes you giggle when you’re supposed to be being serious.)

Is this what the Bible teaches? Who is responsible for all the woe’s of mankind? And does the evil one wield free power over believers, able to plague us in any way he chooses?

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jeremiah 16:12 And you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, each one walks according to the imagination of his own evil heart, so that no one listens to Me.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
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God’s solution.
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Isaiah 1:18-20 “Come now, and let us reason together,” says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; they shall be as wool.
If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat of the good of the land.
But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword”;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Galatians 1:3-5 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct.

If you have been born of God, walk in His light… keep yourself, guard yourself, and the wicked one can not touch you.

Satan is on a short chain and he can only bite if we by our disobedience get too close.

Romans 6:14-18 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
But God be thanked that though you were slaves to sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were entrusted.
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

True ‘spiritual warfare’ is to obey God. To do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God.

Many use Matthew 16:23 as an example of how we’re to rebuke the evil one.
Verses 22-23 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Whoa! Just imagine how Peter must have felt there… one inch tall?

Funny how we are prone to take one little snippet and build a whole doctrine on it. “Get behind Me, Satan!” Funny… and dangerous.

Look at the context here. Jesus has been talking to the disciples about how He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things. How He must be killed and then raised on the third day. (Matthew 16:21)

My heart goes out to Peter. I’ve felt the same way when suffering strikes someone close to me. I’ve wanted to scream at the injustice, run to battle against their pain, anything to make it stop and set things right… right in my own eyes.

Why does Jesus respond with “Get behind Me, Satan”?

Two reasons: 1) Peter’s thoughts are against God. They are opposed to God’s plan. 2) When Jesus commands ‘get behind Me, Satan’ what has He done?

He has placed Himself between Peter and Satan.

This is not a position we’re to take! It is a position only Jesus can stand in.

Therefore never presume a position of power that is Christ’s alone. And when someone you are dealing with is suffering be very, very careful that you don’t offend them by telling them that God would not have them suffer. Be mindful of the things of God, not of men. Beware of being a stumbling block.

1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

1 Peter 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

There are three basic kinds of suffering. Physical, mental and spiritual. Suffering can be caused by the world, by our flesh (sin) or by the devil. Yet we find in the Bible the overriding principle that God allows and uses suffering in the lives of His children.

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed Satan has asked for you, that he sift you as wheat.
But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

Satan asked! He cannot just run around and do as he wills in our lives. He had to have permission. Look at what Jesus says… “But I have prayed for you.”

Trust Him… when you run into trials, when you fall, when you hurt… He has prayed for you.

What Jesus prayed is astounding. He didn’t bind Satan. He prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail; and that when Peter returns to Him, that he strengthen the brethren.

What do you pray for when others are being sifted like wheat?

When we pray, we are not to run to the evil one rebuking and binding Him. Rather we are to keep our eyes on our Heavenly Father, committing ourselves to Him, trusting Him.

When we struggle with sin, we are not to blame Satan. Rather we are to repent, deny the flesh and walk in the Spirit doing what is good and right.

Years ago, the Lord had prompted me to begin praying for a small village near where I live. It was a dark and oppressed place. There were no churches and Christians were unwelcome. (Each year they have a jazz festival. One year they unwittingly had placed a Christian woman in their entertainment line-up. Before she got on stage she was confronted and told to leave.)

The very atmosphere of this village was stifling to Christians. I as well as anyone I knew couldn't go through there without feeling troubled.

For two years I bound Satan from this place... these people, and nothing changed. Then one day as I began to pray (yet again), the Lord spoke to my heart, "You have not because you pray amiss... why do you not see that it's the power of My love that will free them?"

Instantly I saw what I had done. My focus was on the enemy, not on God. I knew that I wielded no power in my feeble words... no matter how powerful they sounded in my own ears. That day, I prayed simply that He, in His unfathomable Love, would enter into that place. That the light of His love, the power of His love would cast light into this dark place.

Within one week a pastor and his family were directed by the Lord to sell their home in Pennsylvania and move to this village... to live with these people... to love them and to share His message.

Within two weeks one of the darkest businesses (the Purple Dragon) put a For Sale sign in their yard and left immediately.

Each Christmas the village attracts hundreds of tourist to shop and enjoy the wonderful display of lights. That year, for the first time, Christians were given permission by the village counsel to gather in caroling groups. And they sang, "Joy to the world, the Lord is come..."

Is the village still dark? Yes. But there is Light and the wonder of His Love is at work in the hearts of men.
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Father we come before You worshipping You for who You are. You alone are all knowing. You alone are all powerful. You have done great things in our lives and we bow before You. We thank You from the depths of our hearts that we are no longer slaves to the evil one. That by the death and resurrection of Your Son we are free. Thank You for empowering us by Your Holy Spirit to walk in Your light.
In You we trust. Deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
Amen
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Study questions
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1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


copyright 2002 tkc

Thank you, Kayte, that was so very enlightening!
I read it twice, and, I'm sure I'll refer back to it again and again.

Thanks again. Love in Christ,

Son_kissed

Thank you (again!), kayte. I am so blessed by this study. Keep going :hug:

Kayte,

I feel so blessed by you opening my eyes even wider by your wisdom and knowledge. For much of what you were saying I have always questioned in my mind. Having spent much time reading Kenneth Hagin book on Spiritual Warfare, everything you have just said, that should not be done, is what his whole book is on. Rebuking the Spirits, having authority of Satan.

This a quote from Kenneth Hagin's book on the very same scripture you just talked about.
"In James 4:7 we are told, "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Hagin says, The authority over the devil is ours. The responsibility is ours. If we'll resist the devil, he will free from us. The Bible doesn't say, "Get somebody else to resist the devil for you"; it says we are to resist the devil. Too many of us sit idly by, waiting for jesus to do something when we are the ones who are supposed to resist the devil. Why? Because we have the authority to! (We always want somebody else to do what we're supposed to do.)

Here is another quote from Kenneth Hagin

Jesus said, "Behold I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over All the power of the enemy: and nothing [nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing] shall by any means hurt you" (Luke 10:19)
Does the church in this century have less authority than it did right after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating at the Father's right hand? If it has less authority today, it would have been better for Jesus not to have died. But no, bless God, we have authority. Jesus said in Matthew 28:18, "...ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and in earth." All the authority that can be exercised upon the earth has to be excercised through the Church, because Christ is not here in person-in His physical body.

I wanted to give you an example of what has been engraved into my mind.

I have found out fairly recently that Kenneth Hagin and Joyce Meyer's are false prophets. I am having to unlearn things that have been drilled into my head by reading their books and watching Joyce Meyer's on t.v. It is frustrating.... But very rewarding to be able to find the truth, so that I will not be bound by lies and deception. God has been with me as I go through this challenging time. But his plan is Good and I trust in him and anyone he sends to help me sort all of this out.

I am going to do your study questions, it will take some time, but I know that this will be a very good thing for me. If you have anything to tell me about what I have written just now, I ask that you please pray before answering, so that I know it is from the Lord.

Your sister in Christ,:hug: :hug: :hug:

Elizabeth

Kayte

Thank you so much for sharing with us what the Spirit has shown you. May we all be blessed and refreshed in this knowledge.

God Bless you!

Elizabeth, I sure know what you mean. It's hard to have things we understood to be true start crumbling... but oh so good! :hug:

The quotes you picked from hagin are interesting.. very much the same things I had learned years ago.

Let's take them apart... lol

This a quote from Kenneth Hagin's book on the very same scripture you just talked about.
"In James 4:7 we are told, "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Hagin says, The authority over the devil is ours.
hmmm.. I don't see resisting the devil and him fleeing having anything to with our 'authority' but with obediance to God, which we're empowered by the Holy Spirit to live out.

The responsibility is ours.
The responsibility to walk in obediance is ours. It's our choice.. to walk in the light or to heed the temptations that come along and walk into darkness.

If we'll resist the devil, he will free from us. The Bible doesn't say, "Get somebody else to resist the devil for you"; it says we are to resist the devil.
I started to agree with this statement.. but the more I looked at it, the more it bothers me. It's right in that we have to resist.. but scripture also admonishes us to surround ourselves with other believers so that we can build one another in the faith.. watching out for each other, praying for each other, encouraging each other.

Too many of us sit idly by, waiting for jesus to do something when we are the ones who are supposed to resist the devil. Why? Because we have the authority to! (We always want somebody else to do what we're supposed to do.)
I'll agree that many do often sit idly.. when they should be walking with God. Again.. pulling 'authority' into this is to take it out of context. And.. what does haggin mean by authority? And it sounds a lot like Jesus will not or can not intercede because the 'authority' was passed on to us...?

Here is another quote from Kenneth Hagin
Jesus said, "Behold I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over All the power of the enemy: and nothing [nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing] shall by any means hurt you" (Luke 10:19)
Does the church in this century have less authority than it did right after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating at the Father's right hand?
People that handle snakes as part of their worship service often get bit.. and die. :eek:
I do see the miraculous here.. this power that Jesus has given us. We read that Paul was bitten by a deadly serpent and was just fine.
We can also look at the spiritual conotations of this verse and see that Jesus, by restoring us to right fellowship with our Father has given us power to walk in the light and that darkness and evil can never hurt us eternally. We can not be spiritual mortally wounded if we walk in the power of His love.

If it has less authority today, it would have been better for Jesus not to have died.
This is really a shocking and horrible statement!

But no, bless God, we have authority. Jesus said in Matthew 28:18, "...ALL POWER is given unto ME in heaven and in earth."
It appears that haggin is teaching that we are 'gods' here.. that we have the same authority that Jesus has.

All the authority that can be exercised upon the earth has to be excercised through the Church, because Christ is not here in person-in His physical body.
Scripture never teaches that Jesus' authority and power and ability diminished because He is no longer here in person in a physical body. That's really a bizzare statement. :eek:

All this comes down to what does 'resist' and 'authority' mean, and the only place to find out is in the scriptures.

This teaching (hagin's) takes just a portion of a verse and is applied to this teaching... instead of applying this teaching to the verse to see if it holds up. (not even the whole verse is used because the rest of the verse pretty well shoots down the teaching. God explains what He means fully within the very verse.)

Here's the verse in context:

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

To submit to God IS to resist the devil. There's not one word in all of this that teaches us to bind satan. In fact the entire focus is on God... right where true victory and real help lies. :)

Sorry I got long winded.. again. I'll stop here... for now. :D
:hug:

Kayte,:hug: :pp :hug:

Thank you for taking the time to go through each part of the verses with me. Towards the end I was in tears, because I now see the truth. Each time I am unlearning something, it's like a veil is being lifted off of me. When God says, the Truth shall set you free, that is an awesome gift that the Lord is giving me, as I work through these lies. I do have to say, that I am sure I did not believe that I myself was as or more powerful than Jesus. But I did believe that because Jesus lives in me, that what I spoke as far as rebuking spirits had the power to make Satan flee.

Something just popped into my head as I was sitting here thinking about everything..... better get this down before I forget it.

Okay Hagin was talking about how "WE" our the church, and because Jesus died and ascended into heaven and Jesus is no longer here in human form, God has given all the Authority to us.

Then he said, if God had not given us this Authority, it would be better if Jesus hadn't died.

This is what I think If God wanted us to be just as powerful as Jesus, then we wouldn't need to have Jesus living in us. Because basically that is what Hagin is saying. Jesus is less powerful, because he is not in human form, so God gave us his Power. If I depicted that right, that is just Ludicrious!!!!

God has not given us any power, He gave us a will to do as we want. He gave us Jesus's Spirit to live in us. Jesus has all the power, Jesus has all the Authority. Now it makes complete sense, Take EVERYTHING to the Lord in Prayer. God didn't leave anything out. [ He didn't say, take everything to the Lord in prayer... Oh but don't take oppression to the Lord, or things about Evil Spirits because Oh, Yeah, I gave you All power to deal with that!!! ] but this last part is basically what Hagin is saying. I think man, how foolish I was to keep reading that book, I probably read it about five times. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Thank you so much Kayte for helping me with this.:hug: :kiss: :hug:

Your sister in Christ,:hug: :hug: :hug:

Elizabeth

I had to laugh to myself when you talked about people playing with snakes. And they get bit and die. Paul wasnt out playing with snakes to show God's power. Paul was just chilling by the campfire, speaking the gospel. And the evidence God provided was that when the snake came to hurt Paul, the snake had lost its power. (Sound familiar. The sting of the serpent cannot hurt us when we have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ.) We dont go looking for the serpent though. But if the enemy approaches, and we are wearing our armour of God, we are protected. (This in itself was a testimony of Jesus Christ).

Amen dancedwithdolphin! Good post! (Glad I made you laugh, too.) :D

You are so right about the armour of God. Isn't it interesting that all the armour, except one piece, is defense and not offense? Only the 'sword' is an actual weapon. That's why it's so so so important that we know His word and are walking in it/living obediantly to it. Abiding in Him.

When doubt's assail our minds, we turn to His word and find the truth. When we 'feel' alone, we turn to His word and find that He promised He'd never leave us. When we know we are unloveable, we turn to His word and find that He loves us with an everlasting love because that is His charactor.. not because of who we are. When we feel unforgiven and weighed down by things we've done, we turn to His word and find that He has declared us forgiven. When our faith is shaken by hardship, we turn to His word and find that He is indeed our comforter and strength.

The list goes on and on...

One more thing.. there is no armour for the back. We're going to get hit if we're just out sight seeing and not paying attention to the battle.. facing the right direction.. forward.. toward Him. :hmm:

This is a good study and I understand what you are saying but I have to disgree that this is spiritual warfare...if this is the answer to spiritual attacks:


True ‘spiritual warfare’ is to obey God. To do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God.

Then why would it be called 'warfare' and why is just doing this not enough...cause it isn't. I did this when my son was losing his mind literally and having very voilent rages and attacking me and other people and hurting himself. At age five he was admitted to a mental health hospital for wanting to kill himself and had even gotten a knife to do the job at a complete and total shock to me!! He was also hearing voices and seeing things which I didn't know until he was put in the hospital. He was almost dx as bipolar and put on some heavy duty meds. :( He has been in therapy since he was three years old due to his behavior. I can't tell you how many times I begged God to heal him to help him and sobbed my heart out to the Lord on my knees on my face! I prayed and prayed and prayed for YEARS and my son gradually got worse and worse...it was like living in hell...I never knew when he would go off or what would cause it.

I have been hit, bit, slapped, punched, kicked, head butted in the face, had achemical sprayed in my face, had him come after me with sticks to stab me with, bricks to 'smash my head in', and been threatened so many times that he wanted to kill me. During a rage he would attack my faith, say horrible things about God and Jesus...say he wanted to die and go to hell to make the devil kill people and on and on. Such awful awful stuff for a little boy to be saying!

He has resisted church and bible readings and prayers...sometimes more then others. I was obeying God and following Him but I was at a complete loss with my own son! No amount of therapy or medication or prayers or whatever was helping either...not until I learned about rebuking evil spirits...THIS is spiritual warfare...getting in the battle...otherwise why would Paul tell us we need Armor for?

You don't need armor for praying. You don't need armor for just following the word of God...you need armor for fighting. So I learned to fight and only then did my son start getting better.

Yes I rebuked the evil spirits of rage and anger and haterd and rejection and anything esle I saw my son doing and it WORKED! Praise God through Jesus' Name it worked. Of course we cannot do this on our own...it has to be done in the name of Jesus....yes Jesus comes between us at these spiritual attacks but we have to say the words...praying never helped my son other then leading me to learn about spiritual warfare. Praying alone didn't stop the rages...praying gave me the answer TO do battle.

My son was on the verge of being too big and too strong for me to physical deal with and keep safe and time was running out for him. If his behavior hadn't gotten better right now he would probably be living in a mental insitution for kids like him and yea there are alot of kids like him saddly anymore. God knew time was running out and emotionally I was a wreck dealing with him. Being physical hurt and abused by your own child does alot of damage...it was really damaging our relationship too. Plus I had no trust for him...never knowing when he might go off. Sure I restrained him but I got hurt before I could get him fully restrained and with my bad back it was getting more and more difficult to do.

I saw a change in Nate quickly with this..epsecially if I did the reburking before he was in a full blown rage...I would see his eyes change and go back to normal and within a minute be totally calm...he didn't know what I was doing...and I did it ONLY in the Name of Jesus.

Spiritual warfare is real and is an action we have to do....read another real life account on a lady on here who has been posting of abuse by her husband and some of us have been instructing her in spiritual warfare..its working for her too:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=263532#post263532

This isn't her orginal thread that goes into alo more detail of the abuse she is dealing with...you can see that in the same fourm at this one. Rebuking is helping her too.

Of course people have to take responsiblity for their own sins...and certainly you can't be rebuking everything. With Nate as he got better I wasn't sure what was him and what was something esle...so at times I would rebuke whatever was happening with him and if nothing changed I knew it was just him that needed correcting and not something influencing him. If the behavior stopped that minute and this was repeated several other times then I knew something was affecting him. Its pretty easy to figure out what is just them being sinnful (or yourself) and what is a demonic influence because if it doesn't leave and stop within a minute you know.

Of course people don't want to go overboard with this...I rarely have anything to rebuke now with Nate except bad dreams in which he still struggles with from time to time. Now all of his annoying behavior is just him...;) lol....but NO MORE RAGES! :pp Praise the Lord God Praise our Lord Jesus for that!

There is so much scriptures of Jesus reburking demons and teaching His followers to do so...why would those scriptures be in there if we weren't to learn from them?

Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your
names are written in heaven.”

God bless
Julie

Oh Julie, I am so glad your son is doing better! :hug:
This is indeed a difficult subject, esspecially when experiences on either end of the spectrum are laid out.
Please understand that I'm not saying that experiences are useless.. but they are definately not what we're to base our beliefs on. I'm sure we totally agree that the Bible is the 1st, 2nd and last authority for everything we do and believe as Christians.

As I shared in the study, I used to do this very thing.. binding/rebuking. What I came to find out was that it wasn't taught in the scriptures. There aren't any verses, when taken in context, that support it. We have to read this teaching into the scriptures because we wouldn't get this information by just reading the Bible.

About the armor.. let's check out the passage.
Ephesians 1:1-9 talks about how we're to be in our family roles and how servants and masters are to be.. then we get to the armor passages. (I don't see this as a complete change of subjects.. Paul is continuing to tell us how we ought to live.)

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We have to look at what the wiles of the devil are. We know that he desires to kill, steal and destroy. To kill our witness, to kill our faith,.. to steal our hope, to steal our freedom from sin,... to destroy our credibility in and outside the church, to destroy our effectiveness. To snare us into sin again.. to cause us to doubt our salvation. To cause us to doubt God's love for us.

13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

We need each piece of the armor to withstand the evil day.. any evil that might/will come at us on any given day. We're to always be ready to stand. And without the armor.. we'll most likely fall.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,

The truth is Jesus and His word which we need to live honestly. We need to understand that His righteousness has been counted to us by faith and we need to be walking in the Light and not in darkness. This keeps us from living a defeated life.

15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Always prepared to share the gospel. Always ready to go and tell them that He loves them and died for them.

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

The shield of faith.. what are we to have faith in? That Jesus, the only Son of God, came to earth and died for our sins, rising again on the 3rd day so that we may have everlasting life with Him. Faith that He will never leave us or forsake us... no matter what we 'feel' like. Faith that He is in control and that He is faithful and trustworthy.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;

Taking the helmet of salvation.. believe, know, walk in the fact that we've been redeemed and are saved. The sword.. the word of God.. meditate on it, apply it, live it out daily, hide it in our hearts so that when we are tempted by the devil we can respond as Jesus did in the wilderness.. with His word.. successfully standing strong because His word is sure.

18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--
19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Praying to God (not commanding demons).. praying for all the saints. In this way we defeat the enemy.
Praying that the gospel will go forth. This is the thing that satan would stop above all else.
Praying that no matter what chains surround.. that the body of Christ would boldly proclaim the good news.

There's nothing in this passage about binding or rebuking demons. It is about standing in Christ.. abiding in Him.. following Him through this battle of worldliness and coming out standing to His glory. This is 'resisting the devil and making him flee'.

The devil won't be bound until Jesus returns and binds him for 1000 years. Until then.. God is using him/them.
All authority was given to Jesus. It was not given to us. We're under His authority also.

The bible teaches that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of many people.. each and every one was an unbeliever. There is never an instance in the Bible of casting (or binding) a demon from a believer.

Sorry this post is another long one. :blush:
Are there some other scriptures you'd like to look at?

There's nothing in this passage about binding or rebuking demons. It is about standing in Christ.. abiding in Him.. following Him through this battle of worldliness and coming out standing to His glory. This is 'resisting the devil and making him flee'.

I never said these scripture taught us the rebuking, nor did I say I bound anything actually. Michael rebuked satan when they argued over the body of Moses....he simply said...The Lord rebukes you. Jesus rebuked Peter. Jesus even rebuked satan himself! He said it outloud and what did satan do? THEN he fled!!
Matthew 4
9And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
10Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'[2]
11Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

Others in the bible HAVE rebuked...where does it say we can't do that? Why were those included in scriptures if we weren't to learn from it and rebuke it. I also never said a Christian could be possessed by a demon either and never said my son was...I honestly don't know...I just know I studied scriptures on it, prayed about it, cleaned my home of anything offensive to God and IN Jesus' Name...by HIS power, not mine, these were rebuked from my son. I don't see how you can say this is not in the bible...I mean how esle can one explain the sudden change in my son when I rebuked these evil spirits in Jesus' name? After years of trying everything esle under the sun ONLY this worked? I don't see how anyone could not say it was from God actually...I mean what esle could it be?

I did this and saw it happen before my very eyes over and over again and even I had a hard time believing it still. I was not raised in any church that ever did any of this. In fact I have never even been to a church that taught this at all....I knew nothing about it. In fact at first I felt pretty silly! It was NOT me that did this...is was only through my faith that it was possible but its in the power of Jesus' Name.

Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

So what were they doing and why were they doing this? Why didn't Jesus just tell them to simply pray as you are suggesting if He didn't want them to DO something. Even Paul and Peter and all of them after Jesus ascended to Heaven continued on with casting out demons...they didn't say what your study says to just pray about walk with God...yes we are to do that, but there is more!


The devil won't be bound until Jesus returns and binds him for 1000 years. Until then.. God is using him/them.

Yes God is in control of everything but to say that God is just using satan...that makes it sound like God is making satan do what God wants only like a puppet on a string and this is not bibical. God ALLOWS satan to do what satan does...and eventually satan will rise up the antichrist...I would think it would be very wrong to say God made satan give power to the antichrist to fool a bunch of people into woshipping satan..this doesn't sound like God. Yes at times God does actually use satan...but satan is not a puppet on a string...at any time God could reel him in but that is not in the plans for awhile which the bible tells us.

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[2] also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"


All authority was given to Jesus. It was not given to us. We're under His authority also.

Luke 10:

19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you.

We don't do this by OUR authority no...but ONLY through Jesus Christ...without Him we would be the ones being trampled by satan and we are alot more then people realize actually. :(


The bible teaches that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of many people.. each and every one was an unbeliever. There is never an instance in the Bible of casting (or binding) a demon from a believer.

As I said...I never said this...and I agree there is no instant of a believer having a demon IN him or her in the bible...but Christians CAN and ARE oppessed by them...otherwise why all the warnings about satan in the bible if all we had to do was pray and walk with God? There would be no need for these many many warnings as we would have nothing to worry about as you are saying...yet the bible warns us over and over again about satan and his tricks...this is for a reason.


From the book The Covering by Hank Hanegraaff:

God's Plan to protect you from evil

pg 30

The devil is real, and he does tempt us in myriad ways. While we greatly overestimate Satan's power by supposing he can control us against our wills, an equal-and-opposite error would be to underestimate his cunning crafiness. Thus, before Paul launches into the covering that protects against the devil's schemes, he first emphasizes the fact that "our struggles is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritral forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Ephesians 6:12). Spiritual warfare is waged against invisible beings that personify the extremities of evil. And their weapons are spiritual, not physical. While they cannot bite us physically, violate us sexually, or cause us to levitate, they can tempt us to cheat, steal, and lie. (me..this is what I am refering too as oppesstion)

Furthermore, it is crucial to note that though the devil cannot directly interact with us physically, he does have access to our minds. He cannot read our minds, but he can influence our thoughts. Indeed, if we open the door to satan by failing to put on the full armor of God, he does, as it were, sit on our shouldres and whisper into our ears. The whisper cannot be discerned with the physcial ear; it can, howevver, penetrate 'the ear' of the mind.

We cannot explain how such communication takes place any more than we can explain how our minds can cause he physcial synapses of the brain to fire. But that such mind to mind communication takes place is indisputable. If it were not so, the devil could not have tempted Judas to betray his Master, seduced Ananias and Sapphira to deceive Peter, or incited David to takea census. Nor would the apostle Paul have insturcted us to "put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand" (Ephesians 6:13). In the final analysis, the whole of Scripture informs us that spiritual warfare is the battle for the mind.

What do you think 'stand' means in these terms?
Did Jesus just stand there and do nothing, say nothing when satan was tempting Him? No at first he countered with scriptures then He finally just rebuked him...and then satan fled. Does it say Jesus prayed when satan showed up? no. When others in the bible rebuked satan does it say they just prayed? no. There is one scripture where the disciples of Jesus could not cast out a demon of a boy who had seizures and they came to Jesus and asked why... He said this 'kind' (of demon) did need prayer AND fastings to be cast out...and so guess what?

While Nate was getting better through the rebuking I did without him aware I was even doing this...he was still having a terrible time with anxiety. would just get so upset and little things and his anxiety has literally been crippling to him...at one point I had to homeschool him because he simply could not handle regular school. So in talking with another Christian woman and us both praying about it as rebuking this wasn't working...I found these scriptures which is actually left out in some bibles where Jesus says only this kind comes out with prayer and fasting.

Mark 9

17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not."

19 He answered him and said, "O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me." 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.

21 So He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?"
And he said, "From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us."

23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."

24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"

26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.

28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?"
29 So He said to them, "This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting."

Ok so my fellow Christian and I discussed these verses and decided I should pray first and see if I should fast and pray over Nate's anxiety and I was lead to do this. I have never fasted before because I have low blood sugar and have to eat every few hours to keep my blood sugar up. I knew I couldn't fast all day but would go as long as I could. While I fasted and prayed I also did phsycial work in the yard because I feel closer, more in touch with God then. After the fasting and praying in which I was able to fast for five hours I think it was, Nate did show a remarked improvement in his anxiety levels...so much so he was able to go on vacation with his grandparents something no one in the family thought he would be able to do. :)

As far as binding...alot of people...good Christians do it with good results...for me I still need to study it but it IS in scriptures:

Matthew 16:19
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[16:19 Or [will have been bound ... will have been loosed] ] in heaven."
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 16 In context: Matthew 16:18-20)

Matthew 18:18
"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


Luke 13:16
So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

The verse says a Christian can be bound by satan...this is a fourm of oppestion.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

another Christian so influences by satan that they allow themselves to believe his lies.

Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Paul speaking to the church and how the members are to support and uplift each other and help with tempation from satan.

2 Corinthians 2
10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Unforgiving sets in bitterness which leaves the door open for satan's tricks. Forgiving is one of the hardest things for people to do too and fully...none of us are immune to this nor can we totally sinnless so that satan never has a foot hold in our lives in some way or other..that is why we must always be on our toes and have the armor of God on us...Paul doesn't tell us to 'just' pray..this is only part of the scriptures warfare that needs to be done.

God bless
Julie

I listen to Chip when I get a chance on the Christian radio station and have posted this several times on the board..this is actually part four of his series on spiritual warfare and it really opens your eyes to how satan does influence us but gives practical bibical scriptures of what to do too.

Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram
Series: The Invisible War - Part 4
Spiritual Warfare 401: How to Gain Deliverance from Demonic Influence

Selected Scriptures
Introduction – The “Missing Ingredient”
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm
against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against
flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against
the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of
wickedness in the heavenly places.
We are in an invisible war.

Ephesians 6:10-12 NAS

13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, that you may be able
to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and
having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15and having shod
your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
We are to prepare ourselves for battle.We are to
prepare ourselves for battle.

Ephesians 6:13-15 NAS
16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you
will be able to extinguish all the flaming missiles of the evil one.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God.
When we resist the enemy, he will flee from us.

Ephesians 6:16-17 NAS

18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit,
and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and
petition for all the saints, 19and pray on my behalf, that
utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to
make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, 20for
which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I
may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Intercessory prayer is pivotal & essential for corporate & individual
deliverance.

Ephesians 6:18-20 NAS
1
Summary of Ephesians 6:18-20 – The means by which believers are to
withstand and overcome the attacks of the enemy in spiritual warfare is by consistent, intense, strategic prayer for one another in conjunction with the personal application of the armor of God.

I. Intercessory Prayer Is Our Most Powerful And Strategic
Corporate Weapon In Spiritual Warfare.
• Prayer has a direct impact on spiritual warfare. Mark 9:29
• Prayer provides / assists in the deliverance of others who are
undergoing spiritual attack. Luke 22:31-32
• Power falls where prayer prevails. Acts 1:14, 2:42, 3:1, 4:24-35, 6:4-8,
8:14-16, 9:40-42, 10:1-4, Church history is replete with examples
II. What Kind Of Prayer Brings God’s Deliverance And Power
In The Midst Of Spiritual Attack?
Consistent Prayer – v. 18a .
~ “with all prayer and petition” = all kinds of prayer
~ “pray at all times” = prayer on all occasions
~ “pray in the spirit” = in communion with and directed by the
agency and power of the Holy Spirit
Intense Prayer – v. 18b .
~ “be on the alert” = lit. = without sleep, vigilant
~ “with all perseverance” = enduring, not giving up
Strategic Prayer – v. 18c - 20 .
~ “for all the saints” (including Paul) = God’s messengers will
be bold
~ “utterance may be given” = God’s message will be clear and
have opportunity
2
Summary = The Missing Ingredient in most Christian’s lives and in most
churches is the commitment and regular practice of intercessory prayer.
Scripture indicates this is an individual and corporate, consistent, intense, and
strategic responsibility that will in fact “deliver us from the evil one.”
(I had no one praying for Nate otherwise that might have been enough, I do not know...at the time I didn't know what I was dealing with anyway and my church did not ever mention spiritual warfare, I had no clue what it was about)

“The great people of the earth today are the people who pray. I do
not mean those who talk about prayer; nor those who say they
believe in prayer; nor yet those who can explain about prayer; but I
mean those people who take time and pray. They have not time. It
must be taken from something else. This something else is
important. Very important, and pressing, but still less important and
less pressing than prayer.”
S.D. Gordon

Note: The great majority of teaching in the Bible has to do with alertness, preparation, defense, and being proactive to prevent demonic influence from breaking our fellowship with Christ or thwarting God’s program for our lives.
What are we to do however when the enemy gets a foothold in our life or in the life of someone we know and love?

III. The Ministry Of Deliverance
A. Its Validity
• Jesus regularly exercised this ministry. Mark 1:27, 39
• The apostles regularly exercised this ministry. Luke 10
• The early church regularly exercised this ministry. Acts 16
~ Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
~ Tertullian (c. 160-203)
~ Origin (c. 185-254)
~ Athanasius (c. 296-373)
• The New Testament writers provide clear direction concerning
this ministry. James 4:1-10
• Contemporary, balanced deliverance ministries do exist and
help many people.3

B. Its Problems
• Extremism and fanaticism tend to negatively color this ministry.
• Confusion concerning demon possession verses oppression of
believers clouds this ministry’s validity among Christians.
• Fear and ignorance have caused many to simply ignore this
ministry.• Those who engage in this ministry are often tempted by pride or
become so singularly focused they fall into theological error.
• Assigning blame of all one’s problems to demonic influence
verses assuming personal responsibility and using Biblical
common sense call this ministry into question. (as I said, yes it can go too far, to the extreme and this affect people so badly they want to ingore this all together...there IS a middle ground here)

C. The Cause(s) Of Demonic Influence
• Yielding to sin - John 8:34
• Spiritual rebellion - 1 Samuel 15:23
• Participating in the occult – Deuteronomy 18:10-f
• Attempting to contact the dead – Deuteronomy 18:11
• Unresolved anger and bitterness – Ephesians 4:26-27(my son was very angry at his dad and with good reason actually)
• Association with those involved in Satanic activity – 2 Corinthians
6:14-16
D. New Testament Evidences Of Demonic Influence
• Severe sickness – Matthew 12:22
• Divination (telling the future) – Acts 16:16
• Unusual physical strength – Mark 5:3 (when my son raged he was very strong)
• Fits of rage – Mark 5:4 (he rages very voilently)
• Split personality – Mark 5:6-7
• Resistance to spiritual help – Mark 5:74 (he resisted at first because I first rebuked outloud to him and should not have done that. He also resisted God and church too and prayers at times)
• Other voices from within – Mark 5:9 (my son had this)
• Occult powers – Deuteronomy 18:10-11
E. The Cure For Demonic Influence
General Purpose .
.
1. Victory is through the Cross of Christ – Colossians 2:14-15
2. Victory is in the name of Christ – Matthew 10:1, Acts 5:16
3. Victory is by the power of the Holy Spirit – 1 John 4:4
Specific Steps For Deliverance From Demonic Influence
1. Accept Christ – John 1:12
2. Confess sins – 1 John 1:9
3. Renounce works of the devil – 2 Corinthians 4:2
4. Destroy occult objects – Acts 19:17-20 (see also 2 Chronicles
14:2, 23:17)
5. Break friendship with occultists – 2 Corinthians 6:14-16
6. Rest in Christ’s deliverance – Colossians 1:13
7. Resist the devil – James 4:7
8. Meditate on and apply the Word of God – Ephesians 6:17,
Matthew 4:4, 7, 10
9. Engage in corporate prayer – Ephesians 6:18, Matthew
18:19
10. If necessary, exorcism in the name of Christ – Acts 16:16
a. By spiritually qualified counselor – Galatians 5:16,
Ephesians 5:18
~Who maintains humility – James 4:7
~Who wears spiritual armor – Ephesians 6:12f
~Who knows the Word of God – Matthew 4:4, 7, 10
~Who is supported by prayers of believers – Ephesians 6:18,
Matthew 18:19
5
6
F. Additional Resources For Help When You Suspect Demonic
Influence
The Adversary – Mark I. Bubeck (available in the church library and the
Resource Center)
Overcoming The Adversary – Mark I. Bubeck (available in the church
library and the Resource Center)
Powers of Evil – A Biblical Study of Satan & Demons – Sydney H.T.
Page (a scholarly work for those looking for solid exegesis and help in
examining problem passages)
Living on the Edge . 2003
www.lote.org 1-888-333-6003
PO Box 80069 Atlanta, GA 30366

As I said, I rarely have to rebuke anything in regards to Nate anymore and the Lord continues working on his spirit...he is actually starting to show positive attitudes with church now...when he was just three years old and I was taking him to church one Sunday...we were in the parking lot walking up to the church and he looked up and said with such hatred in his voice..."I hate church."

This from a three year old!! It just broke my heart...since then its a literally battle getting him to church...he has always been very negative toward church and I don't know why. I have rebuked those spirits too and gradually he is getting better...enough for us to try out differnt churches in we have been looking for a new home church...we finally found one he seems to really be interested in and even said last night when I asked if he wanted to go to the single parent meeting up at church...he said ok!!! I was shocked! Usually I don't ask...usually I just tell him we are going but last night I was very tired and didn't really care if we went..but since he said ok I made the effort to go so he could meet some of the other kids in which he really hit it off with them. :D

No one can ever tell me this doesn't work nor that its in the bible cause it is. As I said I prayed for YEARS and nothing changed until I learned about real spiritual warfare.

God bless
Julie

from http://www.nemontel.net/~word1/can_a_christian_have_a_demon.htm (http://www.nemontel.net/~word1/can_a_christian_have_a_demon.htm)


Can a Christian Have a Demon?



In charismatic and Pentecostal circles the question is: 'Can a believer who is baptized in the Spirit have a demon? Absolutely not!' is the standard answer. 'The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in the same body as a demon!' This is often spoken with the insistence of a slogan, to close the mind to further inquiry.

However, this answer cannot be supported by scripture. In fact, it is an extra-scriptural piece of logic that rests on an assumption. It is dangerous to assume that Satan and his demons have some kind of hands-off policy when it comes to believers while the truth is that believers are the very objects of their wrath and attack.

In the New Testament, the Greek word 'daimonizomai' is used to express the presence of demonic spirits within a person. What this word means is: 'to be demonized; to be under the power or influence of a demon in certain areas; to have a demon.'

In the King James Version of the Bible this particular Greek word is translated 11 times as 'to be possessed with devils'. The word 'possessed,' however, is a misleading translation for this Greek word. To English speaking people the term 'possessed' implies total ownership of something. This concept, as pertaining to the relationship between a demonic entity and a person, has no support in the scripture or in the original intent of the Greek word. There is no suggestion in the scripture that a demon has totally taken over a person as the word 'possessed' implies. Even the Gaderene demoniac had enough humanity to cry out to Jesus for help.

Rather, after close scriptural study, it can be seen that the effect of demons upon people was usually in one or more areas of the personality - not the whole person. The best translation of this Greek word is: 'to be demonized' or to 'have a demon.'

A useful analogy would be the city of Chicago. In the 1930's Chicago had a mayor over the town, but the Mafia definitely ran parts of the town. Even so, while a believer may profess Jesus Christ as Lord of their life, it's quite possible that certain areas of the life may be under the domination and controlling influence of demonic spirits, i.e. an area of jealousy, lust, or annoying and compulsive habits.

Because of a scriptural misunderstanding of exactly what occurred at their spiritual rebirth, many believe that they are somehow immune, or instantly free, from the strongholds, bondages and curses accumulated during a lifetime of sin.




SCRIPTURES SUPPORTING THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS CAN BE DEMONIZED


Matthew 15:22-28 Deliverance is the 'children's bread;' and is therefore particularly reserved for believers
Matthew 16:22-23 Jesus rebuked the spirit of Satan speaking through Peter
Mark 1:23 A man with an unclean spirit 'in the synagogue'
Mark 1:39 Jesus cast out demons 'in the synagogues'
Luke 9:52-56 Jesus told James and John, '...you know not what spirit you are of'
Luke 13:11-16 A 'daughter of Abraham' was bound by a 'spirit of infirmity'
Acts 5:3 Satan 'filled the hearts' of two believers to lie to the Holy Spirit
Acts 8:13, 20-24 Simon, a believer, needed deliverance from the occult
1 Cor 5:1-5 Speaks of a believer filled with a spirit of lust and as a result, delivered over to Satan
2 Cor 2:10-11 Satan can 'get advantage' over a believer
2 Corinthians 11:4 Paul rebukes believers for receiving 'another spirit'
2 Corinthians 12:7 Paul was tormented by a 'messenger from Satan'
Galatians 3:1 Paul rebukes believers for being 'bewitched'
1 Timothy 1:19-20 Speaks of two believers who were delivered over to Satan for blasphemy
2 Timothy 2:24-26 Believers can be snared and taken captive by the devil
1 Timothy 4:1-2 In latter days believers will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
Ephesians 4:25-27 Lying and anger can 'give place' to the devil in a believer's life
RESULTS WHEN CHRISTIAN DEMONIZATION IS DENIED


The old sin nature becomes the 'whipping boy' whenever there's a compulsive problem in the life.
All problems in a person's life are taught to be due to their continual 'lack of surrender.'
All inherited characteristics and personality quirks are thought to be unchangeable.
Psychology, mental health programs, and even the use of psychotic drugs are supported and relied upon.
Despair, hopelessness and at times even suicide are fostered within the demonized.
Demons are given legal ground to stay when a person sits under teaching that denies a Christian can have a demon.
Spiritual pride is reinforced in leaders and keeps them from reexamining their teachings and retracting error.
Gives ground to accept without question and as law all medical diagnosis and medication.
People are left open to be snared into cults and religious deception by angels of light. After all, if a believer can't be demonized, aren't they 'safe?'

I have found out fairly recently that Kenneth Hagin and Joyce Meyer's are false prophets. I am having to unlearn things that have been drilled into my head by reading their books and watching Joyce Meyer's on t.v. It is frustrating.... But very rewarding to be able to find the truth, so that I will not be bound by lies and deception. God has been with me as I go through this challenging time. But his plan is Good and I trust in him and anyone he sends to help me sort all of this out.
ElizabethI strongly disagree that Kenneth Hagin and Joyce Meyer are false prophets. A lot of people start screaming "false prophet" when they don't fully understand a teaching or it isn't exactly what they themselves believe.

I am always careful not to label people false prophets. If I don't agree with them, fine...it's not the end of the world if everyone doesn't agree with them, or if they don't agree with me....but name calling (false prophets, stuff like that), only causes division and strife in the Body of Christ, and I never want to be responsable for that. :saint:

Kayte,


I have read this thread with great interest. I'd like to comment on a few of the points you make.



For five years my family attended a church where walking in the light, self control, repentance and yielding to the Holy Spirit were seldom mentioned or practiced.

Every teachings base was ‘Spiritual Warfare’. It was the theme of every meeting and several times a week the believers would gather to wage war against principalities and powers of darkness.

If someone was struggling in a specific area, such as anger, then the ‘spirit of anger’ would be rebuked and bound and victory claimed.

Oddly, this had to be done repeatedly. Somehow that ‘spirit of anger’ kept getting loose… and most sadly, the person struggling continued right on struggling. There was no freedom found.

Any sins, any annoyances, any trials, any inconveniences, any discomforts or disease were considered to come from the hand of the evil one and what we were to do was take authority over them, binding them in the name of Jesus.

The list of harassing spirits is endless. From the spirit of lust, the spirit of chocolate cake to the spirit of tooth decay and frivolity. (That’s the one that makes you giggle when you’re supposed to be being serious.)
This church was not balanced in their teaching, and definitely had their focus wrong, because there is no way that we can hope to successfully confront and gain victory over any demonic influence in our lives if we are not "walking in the light, self control, repentance and yielding to the Holy Spirit ".


The scripture says:

James 4:7-8
Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

You must first submit to God before you can hope to resist the devil.







Years ago, the Lord had prompted me to begin praying for a small village near where I live. It was a dark and oppressed place. There were no churches and Christians were unwelcome. (Each year they have a jazz festival. One year they unwittingly had placed a Christian woman in their entertainment line-up. Before she got on stage she was confronted and told to leave.)

The very atmosphere of this village was stifling to Christians. I as well as anyone I knew couldn't go through there without feeling troubled.

For two years I bound Satan from this place... these people, and nothing changed. Then one day as I began to pray (yet again), the Lord spoke to my heart, "You have not because you pray amiss... why do you not see that it's the power of My love that will free them?"

Instantly I saw what I had done. My focus was on the enemy, not on God. I knew that I wielded no power in my feeble words... no matter how powerful they sounded in my own ears. That day, I prayed simply that He, in His unfathomable Love, would enter into that place. That the light of His love, the power of His love would cast light into this dark place.

Within one week a pastor and his family were directed by the Lord to sell their home in Pennsylvania and move to this village... to live with these people... to love them and to share His message.

Within two weeks one of the darkest businesses (the Purple Dragon) put a For Sale sign in their yard and left immediately.

Each Christmas the village attracts hundreds of tourist to shop and enjoy the wonderful display of lights. That year, for the first time, Christians were given permission by the village counsel to gather in caroling groups. And they sang, "Joy to the world, the Lord is come..."

Is the village still dark? Yes. But there is Light and the wonder of His Love is at work in the hearts of men.

Where is this village that you lived near? Were you a missionary?








About the armor.. let's check out the passage.
Ephesians 1:1-9 talks about how we're to be in our family roles and how servants and masters are to be.. then we get to the armor passages. (I don't see this as a complete change of subjects.. Paul is continuing to tell us how we ought to live.)

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We have to look at what the wiles of the devil are. We know that he desires to kill, steal and destroy. To kill our witness, to kill our faith,.. to steal our hope, to steal our freedom from sin,... to destroy our credibility in and outside the church, to destroy our effectiveness. To snare us into sin again.. to cause us to doubt our salvation. To cause us to doubt God's love for us.




I find your interpretation of this passage in Ephesians quite interesting.

Ephesians 6:10-17
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Put on the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God...


What you have said is true -- that we need to "...Pray to God .. pray for all the saints. In this way we defeat the enemy.
Pray that the gospel will go forth.
Pray that no matter what chains surround.. that the body of Christ would boldly proclaim the good news...."
-- but that is NOT what Paul is talking about here. He starts this passage by stating that we are not wrestling flesh and blood, but demons!!


This passage of Scripture deals with all that is necessary in our lives in order to be able to prevail when we wrestle with these principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places ( demons!! ):

1. Truth
2. Righteousness
3. Being ready to go and preach the gospel of peace
4. Faith
5. Salvation
6.The Word of God



This is why the church that you described that you went to for many years was way off -- you do not simply sit passively by and rebuke demons, neglecting a real relationship with God. You instead must be seeking God with all of your heart and soul in order to be able to defeat the evil that would oppress you.



There's nothing in this passage about binding or rebuking demons. It is about standing in Christ.. abiding in Him.. following Him through this battle of worldliness and coming out standing to His glory. This is 'resisting the devil and making him flee'.
That is absolutely true. There is no mention in this passage of binding or rebuking demons. That's not what it is about. But it is about confronting and defeating them. That is the point of the passage.

Hi kayte! :hug:

Thankyou for this study. I'll have a shot at some of the questions.

Study questions

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you?

No I do not have fear. We are told that 'Perfect Love casteth out fear' and of course the Lord is Perfect Love. Jesus conquered death and the devil once and for all at Calvary and because Jesus has saved me Satan no longer has control over my life.

Revelation 3 v20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My Voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.

There have been occasions at my youth group when I think I have felt Satan's presence. Little wonder when we have 30 unsaved teens and we are trying to present them the gospel. He does not want even one of these youngsters to pass from 'death' unto 'life,' But I have on the whole armour of God and keep looking unto Jesus. He is my Focus. There is no barrier between Him and me. I can feel my prayers go straight to the throne of God where Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us.

There have also been times when I have been out tracting in closed blocks of flats, (apartments to you!!) and I have felt a 'darkness'. At those times I have repeated over and over 1 John 4 v4: 'Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them : because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.'

He is in me and I am in Him! Closer He cannot be!

3) In James 4:7 we are told, "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." How are we to resist?

With the Power of the Holy Spirit.

5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

Yes, quite likely. But now I am older and have been through suffering and come out the other side I have more knowledge of what to say and what not to say and why we have to go through suffering. Suffering matures us. 'When He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold.' In Matthew 16 Peter didn't realise that Jesus had to suffer. If He hadn't died then we would be forever lost. Peter couldn't change the Divine Plan. Had he realised God's Purpose then he wouldn't have said what he did.

2 Cor. 12v9: And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Is that the kind of verse you are looking for?

6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God's loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

I have been in a terrible situation where I was so desperate for God to hurry up and step in. So when He didn't step in I tried to take the battle on myself. Looking back I realise I said things I shouldn't have said and did things I shouldn't have done. In the end God was victorious. But my 'stepping in' led to a great deal of trouble not only for myself but, as is often the case, for other people. I regret what I did. It didn't help any. Even though my motives were 'honourable' and I was fighting for what was right. But I also could tell that in my impatience and frustration I was fighting a brick wall. Then I found these words......

2 Chron 20 v 15.....for the battle is not yours, but God's.
Deut 20 vs 3 and 4: let not your heart faint, fear not, and do not tremble, neither be ye terrified because of them; For the LORD your God is He that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

I put these verses on my fridge and looked at them every day. They are still there as a reminder that God did fight for me, He did win the battle and He won it in His time and without any help from me. Once I had given everything to Him then He used me. But while I was fighting on my own then I wasn't glorifying Him. I just thought I was.

7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I don't know of any verse where we are told to pray to bind evil spirits. Your #2 is a beautiful, calming prayer. :hug:

Hi :)
Boy.. you've all been busy! lol It may take me awhile to catch up and look at everything posted.

I'll start at the top and work my way through.
First off.. let me say I completely agree with this statement:

"Moonglow- Spiritual warfare is real and is an action we have to do..."
I believe every aspect of the Christian life is one of action. I totally agree that Spiritual warfare is real.. all too real. The lines are drawn and the battle rages and we're in it. Like it or not.

Please believe me, I take the battle very seriously and am not in any way trying to say there is no battle or that we're not active participants. I think maybe what I'm saying comes across that way because what I'm saying 'sounds' weak. I'm not by any means talking about sitting on our rears, twiddling our thumbs, saying pretty prayers, mindlessly ho-humming our way through life, heedless of the raging battle.

On the contrary. I very much see and know the battle. I'm in it, too. :) And while what I'm saying may sound weak and ineffective, I wish I could assure you that it's not.

Moonglow - Others in the bible HAVE rebuked...where does it say we can't do that? Why were those included in scriptures if we weren't to learn from it and rebuke it. I also never said a Christian could be possessed by a demon either and never said my son was...I honestly don't know...
I didn’t say you said a Christian could be possessed. I was only referring to what the bible teaches… not anything anyone had said.

I was trying to get our ducks in a row so we all know where we stand. I believe the Bible consistantly and without variation teaches that a Christian can not be possessed, because by definition, we are ‘possessions’ of God. I believe the Bible teaches that an unbeliever can be.

I believe a Christian can be tempted, swayed, ‘oppressed’, and afflicted in some ways by the devil/demons. I highlight the word oppressed because the lines have been blurred on what that means. (Many will use the words ‘oppressed or demonized’ instead of possessed when referring to a believer, but the definition boils down to possessed when we get down to it. Which is contrary to Scripture.)

My definition of oppressed is to be brought under trying conditions, tribulations (Job), mental battles that distort our perception of God or bring thoughts of rebellion against God.

What is your definition of oppressed?

This is really important for what we’re discussing for several reasons. Mainly, is there a distinct line drawn in the work of the devil in the lives of believers versus the lives of unbelievers? And if there is, is there a distinct line in how we’re to ‘do battle’? Let me clarify… as Christians, we are taught that there are unbelievers that are possessed by demons and we are given the authority in Christ to cast them out. This is what Jesus did, this is what the disciples did and this is what we’re taught in all the wonderful scriptures you’ve posted.

Let’s look closer at this verse:

Luke 13:16
So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

Moonglow - The verse says a Christian can be bound by satan...this is a fourm of oppestion.
There’s nothing that says this woman was a Christian. It just says she is a daughter of Abraham.. she was a Jew. Let’s compare it to another group of verses.

John 8
32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
33They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, "You will be made free'?"
34Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."
39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father."
Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God."
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Now, I’m not saying that this woman was evil.. I’m only pointing out that the statement of being a ‘son or daughter of Abraham’ isn’t a qualifying statement that she was a follower of Jesus.
There are numerous other verses that use the term ‘sons of Abraham’ and Jesus consistantly points out that being a decendant of Abraham won’t save.

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

Moonglow - another Christian so influences by satan that they allow themselves to believe his lies.
Yes, this is why the belt of Truth and breastplate of Righteousness are so important. Ananias and Saphira listened to the lies of the enemy and chose to lie.

Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Paul speaking to the church and how the members are to support and uplift each other and help with tempation from satan.
Um.. well.. lol.. this verse pertains to husbands and wives abstaining from s*x for a time for spiritual reasons… not church members. But the application can still hold in that we need to be right relationally (Ephesians) with others as part of defeating satan.

2 Corinthians 2
10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Unforgiving sets in bitterness which leaves the door open for satan's tricks. Forgiving is one of the hardest things for people to do too and fully...none of us are immune to this nor can we totally sinnless so that satan never has a foot hold in our lives in some way or other..that is why we must always be on our toes and have the armor of God on us...Paul doesn't tell us to 'just' pray..this is only part of the scriptures warfare that needs to be done.
2 Corinthians 2:10, 11 is exactly what the verses here are referring to.

Matthew 16:19
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[16:19 Or [will have been bound ... will have been loosed] ] in heaven."
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 16 In context: Matthew 16:18-20)

Matthew 18:18
"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
When read in context, these verses are speaking about the church that Jesus would build with Himself as the foundation and church discipline. There is good coverage of this here (at about the center of the page.): http://www.letusreason.org/Pent13.htm

I really can’t respond to the article by Chip Ingram without more information since the bottom half of the article appears to just be reference points that I don’t have any way of looking up to know what the definitions are. If you have more info or an addy I can go look at, I’m willing.

It’s really interesting that you quote Hank Hanegraaff’s book ‘The Covering” here. Are you aware that he disagree’s with rebuking and binding, sees it as unscriptural? That’s why he wrote that particular book. To refute this very teaching and to help believer’s to understand ‘God’s plan to protect you from evil.’

I know I’m asking a lot, but please read this article.. I’d post it, but my post is way too long already. lol
http://www.equip.org/free/DC665.htm

I’ll post again in a bit and try to respond to more. (hi karen :) I haven't had a chance to read through your posts yet.)

Hugs to all! :hug:

SCRIPTURES SUPPORTING THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS CAN BE DEMONIZED?


Karenmot - Matthew 15:22-28 Deliverance is the 'children's bread;' and is therefore particularly reserved for believers

The above statement really doesn’t make sense when you read the passage. Jesus told her that He was sent to ‘the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’ ….. to take the children’s bread.. He is the Bread of Life.. And His message was first preached to the Jew and then the gentile.
The passage also doesn’t name the woman a Christian. Many saw He could heal and deliver and came to Him for that. Sadly it didn’t necessarily follow that they trusted in Him for salvation. (Remember Jesus talking to them about being an evil generation, seeking signs and wonders?)
Matthew 15
22And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed."
23But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
26But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs."
27And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.


Karenmot - Matthew 16:22-23 Jesus rebuked the spirit of Satan speaking through Peter
Matthew 16
22Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"
23But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

The term rebuke in the sense that we’re discussing it seems out of place here. And as was mentioned before.. Jesus placed Himself between satan and Peter. These verses in no way say that Peter was possessed or demonized… that satan was ‘in’ him. It does state that Peter was mindful of the things of men, not the things of God. That offends God.


Karenmot - Mark 1:23 A man with an unclean spirit 'in the synagogue'
Mark 1
23Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out,

Someone being in a synagogue or church for that matter doesn’t confirm that a person is a believer. Seems like ‘churches’ today are quite full of unbelievers actually.


Karenmot - Mark 1:39 Jesus cast out demons 'in the synagogues'
Mark 1
39And He was preaching in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and casting out demons.

Same as above. The scribes and the Pharisees were in the synagogues, also…


Karenmot - Luke 9:52-56 Jesus told James and John, '...you know not what spirit you are of'
Luke 9
52and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"[
55But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them.”] And they went to another village.

Was this a literal ‘spirit’(demon)? It says Jesus turned and rebuked them.. not a demon. They wanted to destroy, Jesus came to save. (Seems I’ve heard many pastors doing the same thing.. asking God to destroy certain groups of people.. sad.. Jesus came to save them.)


Karenmot - Luke 13:11-16 A 'daughter of Abraham' was bound by a 'spirit of infirmity'
Luke 13
11And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. 12But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, "Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity." 13And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day."
15The Lord then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

Again, there is no reason to assume this woman was a Christian because she was a ‘daughter of Abraham’ when in so many other passages the sons of Abraham clearly were not believers.


Karenmot - Acts 5:3 Satan 'filled the hearts' of two believers to lie to the Holy Spirit
Acts 5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
5Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
7Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?"
She said, "Yes, for so much."
9Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." 10Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

Instead of Peter delivering them from the demon(s), they were struck dead. That’s contrary to every instance of demon possession that Jesus dealt with in the gospels, isn’t it? If this was a case of demonization, weren’t Anaias and Sapphira dealt with unjustly? They should have been delivered if that’s the classification we’re going to put this under.
But God is not unjust and the language of the passage really doesn’t tell us that they were possessed or demonized. It tells us that satan tempted them (according to their own sinful desires).. and they sinned, lying and they fell.


Karenmot - Acts 8:13, 20-24 Simon, a believer, needed deliverance from the occult
Acts 8
13Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
20But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
24Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me."

Delieverance from the occult? This is what Peter said: “because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

Simon wanted to be powerful.. he wanted to be in charge and in leadership. He wanted to ‘wow’ people. And he was bitter because he was not. He was bound by iniquity.. iniquity is sin.. not a spirit.

continued.. YIKES! :lol: I'm really sorry this is soooooo long! I just felt it was important to have the scriptures readily available so we could actually follow them as we went.


Karenmot - 1 Cor 5:1-5 Speaks of a believer filled with a spirit of lust and as a result, delivered over to Satan
1 Corinthians 5
Immorality Defiles the Church
Immorality in the Church Must Be Judged
1 It is actually reported that there is s*xual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Filled with a spirit of lust? Where does it say that? It says that there is s*xual immorality among them. Is everyone that is s*xually immoral demonized and needing deliverance? Or are they in need of repentance and walking in the Light of the truth? However.. Paul didn’t tell them to ‘deliver’ this man of a ‘spirit’.. but told them to judge the sin and put this man out of the fellowship of the church for the destruction of the flesh. If one wants to live like they don’t know God.. then set them out for sin to take it’s course and they will in missing the fellowship of believers, know that they’re fellowship with God is broken.
Again.. case in point.. Jesus didn’t turn anyone that was demon possessed over to satan.. rather, He rescued them and cast the demon’s out.


Karenmot - 2 Cor 2:10-11 Satan can 'get advantage' over a believer
2 Corinthians 2
Forgive the Offender
3 And I wrote this very thing to you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow over those from whom I ought to have joy, having confidence in you all that my joy is the joy of you all. 4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have so abundantly for you.
5But if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me, but all of you to some extent--not to be too severe. 6This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
This is Matthew 18:15-18 in action.
15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
18"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Satan getting ‘advantage’ over a believer isn’t what the passage in 2 Corinthians 2 says. It says “I have forgiven that one for yoursakes in the presence of Christ, lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.”
Where there is unforgiveness, bitterness, resentment, gossip, slander, etc.. can and will set in. How often does someone offend us and we declare we never want to have anything to do with them again? How… human.
This is referring to not allowing division in the body of Christ, instead, working in restoration, which is His plan.


Karenmot - 2 Corinthians 11:4 Paul rebukes believers for receiving 'another spirit'
2 Corinthians 11
1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
Hmm.. Paul is concerned about false teachers coming in and people having their minds corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.


Karenmot - 2 Corinthians 12:7 Paul was tormented by a 'messenger from Satan'
2 Corinthians 12
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
How did Paul respond? If rebuking in the manner we’re talking about was a viable option, why didn’t Paul do that instead of ‘praying 3 times’? And why was God’s response “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.”


Karenmot - Galatians 3:1 Paul rebukes believers for being 'bewitched'
Galatians 3
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Again, false teachers have decieved them… this time with legalism. Funny how the word bewitched was picked up for this argument, when it has nothing to do with demon’s but rather false teachers tickling ears, tricking, decieving.. etc.


Karenmot - 1 Timothy 1:19-20 Speaks of two believers who were delivered over to Satan for blasphemy
1 Timothy 1
18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Looks very similar to a Matthew 18:18 deal again to me. Church discipline.. that they may learn. At any rate, where’s the connection that shows we can rebuke or cast demons out of believers? Paul delivered these two, to satan, not from…


Karenmot - 2 Timothy 2:24-26 Believers can be snared and taken captive by the devil
2 Timothy 2
24And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Isn’t this instruction for a servant on how to live and present the gospel to unbelievers or at least to those that have a ‘said faith’ rather than a ‘real faith’, that they might “come to their senses, repenting, so that they may know the truth and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will”?
A little further along in the text, they are compared to Jannes and Jambres.. who apparently were Pharoah’s magicians that stood against Moses. So.. leaves a lot of speculation as to whether these that have been taken captive by him to do his will are believers or not.


Karenmot - 1 Timothy 4:1-2 In latter days believers will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
This one is pretty straight forward.. another warning against false teachings. Still doesn’t have anything to do with Christians being demonized and needing to rebuke. But rather to stand steadfast in the gospel of Christ, in truth, righteousness, faith.
Satan’s desire is to destroy our faith and he’ll deceive us if given the chance.


Karenmot - Ephesians 4:25-27 Lying and anger can 'give place' to the devil in a believer's life

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[4] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But you have not so learned Christ, 21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,"[5] for we are members of one another. 26"Be angry, and do not sin":[6] do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27nor give place to the devil. 28Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

When we’ve been tempted.. and we’ve failed, we need to repent and continue on in Him.
However.. nothing about being demonized here. The text is how we are to walk, not grieving the Holy Spirit, but yeilding to Him. Putting off the old man and being renewed in the spirit of our minds.. putting on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

These verses confirm that we are to walk soberly in Christ Jesus.. in the full armor of God, resisting the lies of the devil and he will flee.

It’s time for bed.. I’m really tired!
Hopefully I’ll have time to do some more tomorrow.. well.. I hope.. you may not.. :blush: :D
Night! :hug:

Okay, I am going to have a go at this.... After studing a lot of these scriptures that Kayte has given, I have changed my views on a lot of things. I have really searched for the answers.... and have learned a lot. By studing these scriptures I feel that I have grown in the Fear of the Lord. (knowledge and understanding that can only come from the Lord.) So here it goes,


1) Are there area's in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

This is where God has changed my view which changes a lot of things that I thought were right, but are actually wrong. I said the Sinner's prayer in 97. When I think back to that day, and how I raised my hand to say that I wanted to know Jesus, what I had long forgotton, has been brought back to memory by my prayers to the Lord. I wanted to know Jesus, yet I did not want to give anything up. I did not want to change. I remember feeling all excited, I remember coming home and telling Ed that I had no idea what I had just done but I feel great, but scared at the same time. I was scared because I did not understand what salvation was, I did not understand where this would take me in life. I was bound and determine that I would change somehow, but never really learned what it meant to fully submit your life to Christ. I felt the power of Love that night, that it sent me into tears, I remember thinking as I was feeling the warmth like someone was giving me the biggest hug ever and the most love ever on the inside. The Love I felt was so powerful, I will never forget that feeling. What I know now about the day of my Salvation is..... I asked the Lord to come into my heart, and to forgive me of my sins. The Almighty Lord forgave me of my sins, and I was now a child of God. But I have learned one more thing about salvation that I didn't realize.... I was filled with the Holy Spirit that night, but yet I did not know what the Holy Spirit was, did nothing to walk in the Holy Spirit. I was not allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me, I was not really do much of anything to serve God.

1 Peter 1:21

Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so yur faith and hope are in God.

1 Peter 1:23

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Peter 2:1-3

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

These three verses explain to me, about my salvation and why I could not gain a personal relationship with the Lord. It was like I said, the sinner's prayer and that was it. I was still living in darkness. I saw the light in other's and wanted it, yet had no inkling how to get it. I did not add to my faith which keeps you active in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-9

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Because I failed to gain Fear in the Lord this led me to my sinful old ways. Because I did not fill the Holy Spirit, he was not working in me or through me. I did not fill it with God's word, I did not fill it in prayer to the Lord. I went to church and that was about it. Although I did desire more, I was spiritually blinded. It got to the point of me not going to church as often, I would just feel like not going. Then I started to go out to bars but not drink alcohol, I would go with my neighbor. Then it got to the point I didn't feel there was anything wrong with drinking, as long as I did it occasionally. I couldn't just drink, I drank till I was drunk, Which did not take much seeing as I am only 94 Lbs. Then I got to the point where I was thinking of only me, me, me.... Which turned into an affair. This was definantly leading to destruction, death. I was way off course. I got so far off, that I didn't even think I could find my way back.:giveup:

This next part that I am going to say, has gone against a lot of things that I have said on this board. But like I have told you, I am learning, and as we learn, that changes our views on things that we once thought. So do not think that I am crazy or I have gone off the deep end.:eek: :lol:

I was blinded, and God knew this, he did not leave me or forsake me. He knew where I was going, and what would bring me back to him. He did not lift his veil of protection off of me. I thought that I had lost my salvation, but I did not lose it, I just needed to ask for repentance.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

So just two years ago, when I was delivered from evil spirits, I began to doubt my salvation. When I cried out to the Lord for forgiveness, I did not get Resaved, or Born again, God Almighty restored my spirit, soul, Body and Mind.

Psalm 51:12

Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Psalm 23:3

He restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for hhis name's sake.

So your question was what do I need to do to be free?

Galatians 5:25

Since we live by the spirit, let us keep in step with the spirt. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I will stop now, but will be back to answer the rest of your questions. I can tell you that this study has been wonderful and God has used this as a tool so that I won't be led astray, but to trust in him to help me find the answers. I was relying two much on others for truth and knowledge, and it is God's will that I have the Fear of the Lord actively taking part in my walk with Christ. So often we can get lazy in seeking the Lord, sometimes not even thinking that we are lazy. We are always to be on Fire for the Lord, he detests lukewarm.

Revelations 3:15

I know your deeds, that you are neither Cold nor Hot. I wish you were either one or the other. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot or cold-- I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

I have to go to bed now, but will try to pick this up tomarrow.:)

Your sister in Christ,:hug:

Elizabeth

Wow! Thankyou Elizabeth! :hug: All that studying on one question. Isn't it thrilling to really dig into the Word of God for ourselves. It is good to have guidance from Christians we respect, but the truths we find out for ourselves stay with us. Sometimes a golden nugget will shine from the page for me. And I think over and over how good God is in revealing more and more of Himself.

Thankyou for this study, kayte. :hug: All your hard work is much appreciated and a real blessing.

I enthusiastically agree.

I always felt like there was something missing from spiritual warfare as we normally understand it, and this has been a real eye opener for me.

Thank you again, Katie.

I echo Cilla here: "Wow! Thankyou Elizabeth!" ... along with everything else she said. Studying His word is so incredible when it changes us, strengthens us.. when it becomes our own.


Elizabeth - 1 Peter 2:1-3
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, Now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

These three verses explain to me, about my salvation and why I could not gain a personal relationship with the Lord. It was like I said, the sinner's prayer and that was it. I was still living in darkness. I saw the light in other's and wanted it, yet had no inkling how to get it. I did not add to my faith which keeps you active in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:5-9
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
These verses you shared here are just incredible. They are the exact road to spiritual maturity (Putting off the old man, walking diligently in the new creation He's made us to be) and once again.. strong spiritual warfare. Do you see the armor in them? The believer that has these things defeats the enemy at every turn because his/her mind and life is stayed on Christ.. he/she is mindful of the things of God and walks in them.

As I've examined my walk with the Lord over the years.. starting from day one, when I gained faith, these verses have become a mirror for me. I can read them and ask the Lord where I am and where I need to be, so that I can 'make every effort' to add these things: faith, goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness to love. Building blocks, one upon another.

Paul often shares what he prays for others. This is one that I've learned so much from that really goes with the verses Elizabeth shared:
Colossians 1:9-14
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
This is what I pray for all of us. Every word is so powerful.. each thought so incredible.
I fully believe that Paul was a man that knew how to pray, taught by God. A man that knew 'spiritual warfare' and how to intercede in it. The above is a prime example.

Verse 13 is so beautiful.. I want to draw attention to it for just a sec.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love
We've been delivered from the power of darkness. Wow! Delivered, done, taken care of!
And He has conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

Conveyed is such an amazing word in this verse. Check out the definition and the things it includes:
convey - American Heritage Dictionary
To take or carry from one place to another; transport. * To serve as a medium of transmission for; transmit: wires that convey electricity. * To communicate or make known; * Law To transfer ownership of.

convey - Roget's II: The New Thesaurus
convey verb * To cause to come along with oneself: bear, bring, carry, fetch, take, transport. See accompanied. * To move while supporting: bear, carry.

send - American Heritage Dictionary
send 1 Listen: [ s nd ] v. sent [ s nt ], send·ing, sends v. tr. * To cause to be conveyed by an intermediary to a destination.

medium - American Heritage Dictionary
... extremes. * An intervening substance through which something else is transmitted or carried on. * An agency by which something is accomplished, conveyed, or transferred.

Jesus the Lord did this for us. He delivered us from the power of darkness (once and for all!) and legally transferred ownership of us.. causing us to come along with Himself, bearing us, bringing us, carrying us, fetching us, taking us.... into the Kingdom of the Son of His love.

We are citizens of that Kingdom right now. And so we ought to live as such. By His amazing grace.
------
And btw.. to all of you who've thanked me for sharing the study... Thank YOU for letting me and for sharing it with me. :hug:

p.s. Can't wait for your next part Elizabeth. :) :hug:

Elizabeth,

I am excited to read about how you are digging into the Word for yourself, and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you.

I have a couple of thoughts after reading your post. Many of us come to Christ as adults, and as a consequence have led lives full of sin prior to conversion, and are oppressed by demons who have influenced our thoughts and behavior for a long time. When we are born again, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and have eternal life, but unfortunately we may be stuck in destructive thought patterns and behaviors as a result of our former life. It is not true that at the moment of conversion these demons oppressing us just automtically leave us alone. Instead, they may get even busier, trying to drag us back into our sin. This may explain what happened to you. You were saved, and you knew it, but over time the pull back into your former life was too strong. After this you believed that this proved that you had lost your salvation.

(This is exactly what happened to my husband. He was saved in 1974, but went back into his sin a year later, and believed that he had lost his salvation.)


Keep studying and asking questions, Elizabeth, and I am sure that the Lord will continue to lead you and teach you.

Great post Karen! I agree. :)
This part was esspecially well put:

Karenmot - When we are born again, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and have eternal life, but unfortunately we may be stuck in destructive thought patterns and behaviors as a result of our former life. It is not true that at the moment of conversion these demons oppressing us just automtically leave us alone. Instead, they may get even busier, trying to drag us back into our sin.
I'd even say that this battle actually begins once we have been born-again. Up till then.. we weren't battling.. just being busy about our sin.

When I said this:
We've been delivered from the power of darkness. Wow! Delivered, done, taken care of!
And He has conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
I didn't mean that there was no battle and we could go on our merry way. :eek:
I'm saying just what it says.. that we have been delivered from the power of darkness and He has conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

Ownership has been transferred. The power of darkness no longer has rights or can hold us captive. But we have to stand in Christ and we have to walk, growing consistantly.. putting on all the armor. And adding to faith, knowledge, etc. Actively pursuing God and being transformed in our minds. Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Radically changing how we think and see things. (Becoming like minded with Christ.) Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Radically changing how we deal with things, soberly walking out our faith. Alert to the wiles of the enemy which would cause us to be:
2 Peter 1:5-9
..ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

So sad when we don't believe this... and live this.
I also find this comforting.. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man...
Misery loves company? :lol: (just kidding)
Actually.. I find it comforting that there is nothing new under the sun. That no temptation I face is new and uniquely mine. All through the ages, mankind has faced the same temptations.. and God, able to provide escape for them, making them able to bear it and stand.. can and will do the same for me.
I need to is obey what Paul says in the following verses (which I'll only post portions of to get the gist):
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. (an idol being anything we put ahead of the Lord.)
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

Dual citizenship is competely unacceptable to God. He tells us to separate ourselves according to what He has done.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

SCRIPTURES SUPPORTING THE FACT THAT CHRISTIANS CAN BE DEMONIZED


Matthew 15:22-28 Deliverance is the 'children's bread;' and is therefore particularly reserved for believers
Matthew 16:22-23 Jesus rebuked the spirit of Satan speaking through Peter
Mark 1:23 A man with an unclean spirit 'in the synagogue'
Mark 1:39 Jesus cast out demons 'in the synagogues'
Luke 9:52-56 Jesus told James and John, '...you know not what spirit you are of'
Luke 13:11-16 A 'daughter of Abraham' was bound by a 'spirit of infirmity'
Acts 5:3 Satan 'filled the hearts' of two believers to lie to the Holy Spirit
Acts 8:13, 20-24 Simon, a believer, needed deliverance from the occult
1 Cor 5:1-5 Speaks of a believer filled with a spirit of lust and as a result, delivered over to Satan
2 Cor 2:10-11 Satan can 'get advantage' over a believer
2 Corinthians 11:4 Paul rebukes believers for receiving 'another spirit'
2 Corinthians 12:7 Paul was tormented by a 'messenger from Satan'
Galatians 3:1 Paul rebukes believers for being 'bewitched'
1 Timothy 1:19-20 Speaks of two believers who were delivered over to Satan for blasphemy
2 Timothy 2:24-26 Believers can be snared and taken captive by the devil
1 Timothy 4:1-2 In latter days believers will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons
Ephesians 4:25-27 Lying and anger can 'give place' to the devil in a believer's life
RESULTS WHEN CHRISTIAN DEMONIZATION IS DENIED


The old sin nature becomes the 'whipping boy' whenever there's a compulsive problem in the life.
All problems in a person's life are taught to be due to their continual 'lack of surrender.'
All inherited characteristics and personality quirks are thought to be unchangeable.
Psychology, mental health programs, and even the use of psychotic drugs are supported and relied upon.
Despair, hopelessness and at times even suicide are fostered within the demonized.
Demons are given legal ground to stay when a person sits under teaching that denies a Christian can have a demon.
Spiritual pride is reinforced in leaders and keeps them from reexamining their teachings and retracting error.
Gives ground to accept without question and as law all medical diagnosis and medication.
People are left open to be snared into cults and religious deception by angels of light. After all, if a believer can't be demonized, aren't they 'safe?'
I've read that a genuine Believer can only be oppressed or heavily influenced by demons but never possessed by demons. It makes sense in that the Holy Spirit and a demonic spirit can not live in the same body, light and darkness cannot live in the same body. God would never share a house with an 'unclean' spirit. But yes, parts of a Believer's life can be heavily influenced by the demonic i.e. jealousy, lust, materialism etc as you mentioned. Sometimes a Christian can allow a demon to influence him/her to such an extent that it is as serious as being possessed. I believe that you can still be under bondage and spiritually oppressed but I don't believe possessed by a demon if you are truly filled with the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6 : 14
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Once Jesus cast out demons it was final, there was never a case where someone who had been delivered needed to come back to him for further deliverence:

Matthew 8:16
When evening came, many who were demon­possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

It is a topic that can be heavily debated and your guys opinion on this will be appreciated, I'm sure there are many non-Believers and new Believers who are unsure about this concept.

Once Jesus cast out demons it was final, there was never a case where someone who had been delivered needed to come back to him for further deliverence

As far as I know, no one is saying you have to do this over and over again...Jesus dealt with possession as far as I know...in my son's case I believe he was being attacked/influenced outside of himself, and that is why I had to reburk them more then once...but as I also stated, that gradually got less and less and further in between over time...:)

anyway, I honestly don't know if a Christian, one part of them, can actually be possessed by a demon or not. When I said one part of them, I mean since we are made up of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Does the Holy Spirit fill our bodies, our soul or our spirit? I have never read scriptures saying the Holy Spirit fills our physcial body...I will check some scriptures after awhile on that...in looking at Karen's list I looked up this passage, I was actually looking for something esle but found this instead...its pretty spooky, don't you think? I wonder what it means?

2 Timothy 2
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Should we take this literally, or is this just a figure of speech?

God bless
Julie

I needed to respond to a few more things. Sorry it’s taken me so long!

Moonglow posted - Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[2] also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job 1
11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

Job 19
25For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Job 23
8"Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
9When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
10But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.

Job 40
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2"Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

Job is one of the few places that gives us an actual look into the ‘spiritual realm’. It consistantly shows three things. 1) The devil is our enemy and is goal is to get us to turn against God. 2) God is in control. Satan can do nothing in the life of a ‘believer’ unless God allows it. 3) Job’s eyes stayed consistantly on God.. he never engaged in the type of warfare that you suggest. (I have heard a few teachers claim that this was a downfall of Job’s.. that things would have been much better if he had. But isn’t that an incredible leap to say such a thing when Job pleased God:

Job 42
7And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. 8Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

kayte -
All authority was given to Jesus. It was not given to us. We're under His authority also.

Moonglow - Luke 10:
19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you.
In this I was referring to Hagin’s statement that Elizabeth posted… that we are given all authority.
He is mistaken… we’re not.

moonglow posted - Luke 10:
23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?"
29 So He said to them, "This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting."
I’m having a hard time understanding why it’s supposed that the people that had demon’s cast from them are believers. There’s just no basis in the text that indicates that any of them were believers before they were delivered.
As to Jesus’ response that ‘this kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting… I don’t see a tie to what we’re talking about… other than your saying that prayer didn’t work and so there was a need for you to do more.

Moonglow - No one can ever tell me this doesn't work nor that its in the bible cause it is. As I said I prayed for YEARS and nothing changed until I learned about real spiritual warfare.
I’m sorry. :(


Article posted by karenmot
In charismatic and Pentecostal circles the question is: 'Can a believer who is baptized in the Spirit have a demon? Absolutely not!' is the standard answer. 'The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in the same body as a demon!' This is often spoken with the insistence of a slogan, to close the mind to further inquiry.
Because the argument for this teaching is weak, the need to start off insulting in order to intimidate one into believing that they haven’t searched this out enough or they would agree with this teaching says a lot about it, doesn’t it?
Many, many (far more knowledgeable than I) have deeply studied this subject and found it to be false.
My mind was not closed to further inquiry… I inquired.. I searched and I found. My findings were from scripture.. not imposed on scripture.

Article - However, this answer cannot be supported by scripture. In fact, it is an extra-scriptural piece of logic that rests on an assumption. It is dangerous to assume that Satan and his demons have some kind of hands-off policy when it comes to believers while the truth is that believers are the very objects of their wrath and attack.
This is the same thing I would say of the teaching that we’re to rebuke/bind or cast demons from believers. :D

Article - In the New Testament, the Greek word 'daimonizomai' is used to express the presence of demonic spirits within a person. What this word means is: 'to be demonized; to be under the power or influence of a demon in certain areas; to have a demon.'

In the King James Version of the Bible this particular Greek word is translated 11 times as 'to be possessed with devils'. The word 'possessed,' however, is a misleading translation for this Greek word. To English speaking people the term 'possessed' implies total ownership of something. This concept, as pertaining to the relationship between a demonic entity and a person, has no support in the scripture or in the original intent of the Greek word. There is no suggestion in the scripture that a demon has totally taken over a person as the word 'possessed' implies. Even the Gaderene demoniac had enough humanity to cry out to Jesus for help.

Rather, after close scriptural study, it can be seen that the effect of demons upon people was usually in one or more areas of the personality - not the whole person. The best translation of this Greek word is: 'to be demonized' or to 'have a demon.'
Whether one calls it possession or to be demonized has no effect on who this term was applied to. Unbelievers. But I would also argue that Jesus taught in the sense of possession that who or what we give ourselves to, we are the slaves of. And when one belong to satan.. possessed or not.. they are in essence his possession. However.. free will remains and there is escape and hope in Jesus for ‘whosoever’ will come to Him.

Article - A useful analogy would be the city of Chicago. In the 1930's Chicago had a mayor over the town, but the Mafia definitely ran parts of the town. Even so, while a believer may profess Jesus Christ as Lord of their life, it's quite possible that certain areas of the life may be under the domination and controlling influence of demonic spirits, i.e. an area of jealousy, lust, or annoying and compulsive habits.
This isnt’ a useful analogy. God can in no way be compared to a mayor over a town.
If we’re going to look at it that way, then we must say that God is the supreme dictator of the town that is willingly turned over to Him, and He wouldn’t stand for the ‘mafia’ remaining for an instant in His town.

The things listed that the believers life may be under the domination of are not a matter of being demonized/possessed, but sins of the flesh as described throughout scripture. (Galations, Ephesians, James, Colossians, 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Romans, etc.) And the consistantly given answer to the problem is submission to God, walking in the Spirit and not according to the flesh.. resisting the devil. Don’t give in to temptation but stand firmly rooted in the Lord.

The more we exercise this, the stronger we become. As just the opposite is true in that sin is progressive, the more we give into it, the weaker we become and the greater it’s power over us becomes.

Article - Because of a scriptural misunderstanding of exactly what occurred at their spiritual rebirth, many believe that they are somehow immune, or instantly free, from the strongholds, bondages and curses accumulated during a lifetime of sin.
I haven’t seen anyone claim that people become instantly immune or free from the battle with sin. On the contrary… the battle has only just begun at that point. But it is at that point that we’re under new ownership and given instruction in how we ought to think, live and pray. It is at that point that Jesus has declared us free and said ‘Come and follow Me’.
:hug:

Quote:
Moonglow posted - Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[2] also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"

Job 1
11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

Job 19
25For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Job 23
8"Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;
9When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.
10But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.

Job 40
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:
2"Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

kayte:
Job is one of the few places that gives us an actual look into the ‘spiritual realm’. It consistantly shows three things. 1) The devil is our enemy and is goal is to get us to turn against God. 2) God is in control. Satan can do nothing in the life of a ‘believer’ unless God allows it. 3) Job’s eyes stayed consistantly on God.. he never engaged in the type of warfare that you suggest. (I have heard a few teachers claim that this was a downfall of Job’s.. that things would have been much better if he had. But isn’t that an incredible leap to say such a thing when Job pleased God:

Kayte, I just quoted this part so you would know what I was refering too...please reread my post...I don't believe I used the scriptures from Job to prove anything at all about spiritual warfare...in fact my reason for using it was in response to your statement that God just uses satan as some kind of pupett...that satan has no free will or control to do anything...I used those verses to show that he could do things such as go to heaven and speak to God...if God physically made satan go to heaven and talk to Him wouldn't that be like my using a pupttee to talk to myself? Why bother if I am controlling the puppett? And I agreed with you and stated that yes God IS in contol and satan can do nothing without God allowing it. At any rate, I wasn't using those scriptures to show any type of scriptural warfare on the behalf of Job or anyone esle...sorry if I confused you on that..my point was about something entirely different.

But since you brought this up....it kind of bothers me that you seem to not be reading scriptures quiet right....I mean here you have in Job 1 satan telling God to stretch out His hand to hurt Job...

Job 1
11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"

Ok you seem to think God did all these things to Job...and not satan...but look at the parts you underlined:

12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

Ok God is GIVING satan permission to hurt Job but not physically...later we see He does gives statan permission to hurt Job physically but forbids satan from taking his life.


So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

Maybe I am misunderstanding you...you did say here:
Satan can do nothing in the life of a ‘believer’ unless God allows it.

Job was clearly a believer yet harassed greatly by satan...but you say us Christians cannot be harrassed by satan at all! That we just pray. I am NOT talking about possession here...I NEVER said a Christian could be possessed by a demon at all...I am still studying this. Plus how would Job rebuke satan anyway? This was BEFORE Jesus came to earth and died for our sins ... :confused


He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

Who would want to rebuke God???

kayte -
All authority was given to Jesus. It was not given to us. We're under His authority also.


Quote:
Moonglow - Luke 10:
19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you.


In this I was referring to Hagin’s statement that Elizabeth posted… that we are given all authority.
He is mistaken… we’re not.

I wasn't refering to that post at all...I was just stating scriptures not Hagin...I don't listen to him or read him and know nothing about him and actually only scanned the post about him.

I put scriptures on....so you are saying this scripture above is wrong? Do you think it was written wrong or that Jesus lied? If I recall right what I said about this verse is NOT that we have authority to do this in ourselves...NO....that THROUGH Jesus...through the power of His name...we do! Are you actually going to deny He gave this authority to us through Him?

I hope you aren't denying that some scriptures aren't true at all...I sure hope not. I think these are getting confusing here because you are saying that I said things I didn't say. Maybe just tackle one post at a time so you don't get what one person says confused with what someone esle said, cause several things you think I said, I never said.


Quote:
moonglow posted - Luke 10:
23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!"
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?"
29 So He said to them, "This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting."


kayte:
I’m having a hard time understanding why it’s supposed that the people that had demon’s cast from them are believers. There’s just no basis in the text that indicates that any of them were believers before they were delivered.
As to Jesus’ response that ‘this kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting… I don’t see a tie to what we’re talking about… other than your saying that prayer didn’t work and so there was a need for you to do more.
Quote:

kayte I guess I will go back and get parts of my post to clear things up here...again I NEVER said my son was possessed by anything...nor did I ever say he was a Christian...he was a little boy!! I did the fasting and prayers to help with his anxiety...after I prayed long and hard about it...now whether this means he was healed from the extreme anxiety he was having or whether it was evil spirits bothering him....I do not know...and I have been very clear on this...I have not made these claims you say I made. I just fasted and prayed which we ARE instructed to do for different reasons in the bible...this just happened to be the verse I was looking at...but fasting and praying is advised for other reasons too.


I will go back and repost my post right after this so it can be seen in content with scriptures and what I said about the scriptures...maybe that will help clear up some confusion that is going on.

God bless
Julie

from my second post on the first page:

moonglow:
Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

So what were they doing and why were they doing this? Why didn't Jesus just tell them to simply pray as you are suggesting if He didn't want them to DO something. Even Paul and Peter and all of them after Jesus ascended to Heaven continued on with casting out demons...they didn't say what your study says to just pray about walk with God...yes we are to do that, but there is more!
Quote:

Kayte
The devil won't be bound until Jesus returns and binds him for 1000 years. Until then.. God is using him/them.

moonglow:
Yes God is in control of everything but to say that God is just using satan...that makes it sound like God is making satan do what God wants only like a puppet on a string and this is not bibical. God ALLOWS satan to do what satan does...and eventually satan will rise up the antichrist...I would think it would be very wrong to say God made satan give power to the antichrist to fool a bunch of people into woshipping satan..this doesn't sound like God. Yes at times God does actually use satan...but satan is not a puppet on a string...at any time God could reel him in but that is not in the plans for awhile which the bible tells us.

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[2] also came among them. 7And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
8Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"

Do you see what I was using the Job verses for now? To just show you that satan is a free agent, that can think for himself and act and do things..while God has him on a leash, so to speak, and yes he is allowed to do only certain things...God is not MAKING satan do things as if satan has no control. Job is a very clear scriptures of a man being actually harmed BY satan! A believers harmed by satan in terrible ways! Your orginal posts makes it sound like we have totally nothing to worry about that God will just take care of us, and this is my objection...satan is roaming around and doing really bad things to us unless we follow the bibles instructions on how to do battle with him. That is my only concern on here, that people don't ingore scriptures warning us about satan. I wouldn't say Job was possessed or even oppessed...he was TOURMENTED by satan in horrible ways! And yes God allowed it to happen.....for reasons most of us can't understand...this story isn't about spiritual warfare is about what satan is ALLOWED to do and CAN do to a believer.



Kayte:
Quote:
All authority was given to Jesus. It was not given to us. We're under His authority also.

moonglow:
Luke 10:

19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you.

We don't do this by OUR authority no...but ONLY through Jesus Christ...without Him we would be the ones being trampled by satan and we are alot more then people realize actually.

See I never said we did this by our own authority or by our own power at all.

Kayte:
Quote:
The bible teaches that Jesus and the disciples cast demons out of many people.. each and every one was an unbeliever. There is never an instance in the Bible of casting (or binding) a demon from a believer


moonglow:
As I said...I never said this...and I agree there is no instant of a believer having a demon IN him or her in the bible...but Christians CAN and ARE oppessed by them...otherwise why all the warnings about satan in the bible if all we had to do was pray and walk with God? There would be no need for these many many warnings as we would have nothing to worry about as you are saying...yet the bible warns us over and over again about satan and his tricks...this is for a reason.

At the time I posted this on the first page I did agree with you but in studying scriptures on this, I am starting to wonder..but at this point I do not know...I just wanted to show you that I never said a Christian could be possessed and you keep saying I did. I hope this helps straighten up some confusion.


My overall concern here is because of your orginal statement that is is ALL spiritual warfare is:


Quote:
True ‘spiritual warfare’ is to obey God. To do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God.

I am simply saying what you are talking about here is not spiritural warfare ..its the life we are to live for God, yes...but this isn't spiritual warfare at all.

Oh I found this while looking for something esle..on the Christian radio station I listen too many of the good pastors talk about spiritual warfare from time to time...you can do a search...none of them are questioned as being cult leaders, or false teachers, even Follower has recommended these pastors as being sound on the board before including Chip Ingram whom I posted some of his spiritual warfare information on the first page I think it was. He had spiritual attacks happen to his family at night one time...and rebuked it...though he said he was scared to death anyway this bit of information is from Charles Stanley’s website...I missed this today but it will be replayed at 7 tonight on the radio.

http://www.intouch.org/highlights/thisfall/enemystrikes/simulcast_39117042.html

Live Simulcast
Tuesday September 7, 2004
Charles Stanley’s first message in the Life Lessons Series

Originating live from the newly constructed World Training Center in Atlanta, Georgia—headquarters of the Charles Stanley Institute for Christian Living—this 90-minute program features Charles Stanley's powerful message on winning spiritual battles entitled When the Enemy Strikes. In addition to the message from Dr. Stanley, Integrity Music's Don Moen will lead a time of praise and worship.

Dr. Stanley will help you discover you can achieve victory by:

Identifying the enemy
Sensing his attacks before they cause damage
Dressing in the full armor of God
Standing firm in the battle for your mind
Understanding Satan's tactics against finances, relationships, and health
Claiming God's energy, divine power, and protection for you and your family


God bless
Julie

Julie :hug:


I hope you aren't denying that some scriptures aren't true at all...I sure hope not.
Of course kayte isn't. Far from it. The whole point is that she has worked really hard with this study and has given it much prayer, as you can see from the title! It is good for us all to keep in touch with God and His Word all the time. None of us want to see any false teaching, especially when younger Christians are reading these posts.


I think these are getting confusing here because you are saying that I said things I didn't say. Maybe just tackle one post at a time so you don't get what one person says confused with what someone esle said, cause several things you think I said, I never said.
That is the problem when one person is trying to answer three! Just give her time. :hug: I have been looking into this half the day and still haven't collected enough thoughts together to make a post!!

Your trouble is that you type too fast!! :P :lol:

I would like to relate a deliverance session that I personally witnessed:

Mrs. A was an sweet older woman, and she loved the Lord with all of her heart and soul. She had recently been saved a couple of years before, after a lifetime of practicing a mixture Santaria and worshipping of saints, (she was of Spanish descent), her families own curious mix of Catholicism and idol worship.

She had been gloriously born again, and her hearts desire was to serve and worship the Lord completely for the rest of her life.


The reason she came to the meeting for help was because she had these violent seizures that the doctors could not help her with. She had been having these seizures for years, long before she was saved, and they continued the same after she had been born again. She had had every test available, and had undergone every type of treatment known to medical science, but the doctors could find no reason for these seizures. They were completely mystified. She did not respond to any treatment, and there was nothing any doctor could do for her.

She was accompanied to the meeting by her husband, son, and daughter-in-law, who each brought an oversized pillow with them. You see, she would throw herself on the ground and violently trash around, bruising and hurting herself when one of these seizures came on her, and they always carried the pillows everywhere she went to try to cushion her when she had one.

During the meeting she had several of these seizures. We all witnessed the violent thrashing, etc.

The prayer counselor prayed for her that evening and started casting demons out of her. (She had many). She returned back 3 weeks in a row, and each time more demons were cast out. After they were finally all gone, guess what? No more seizures. She is now healthy and whole and serving the Lord in complete freedom.



One of the points made in the study posted in this thread is to show Scriptural proof that a demon cannot oppress/possess/demonize/whatever a Christian. What is implied by that teaching is that if a person is severely demonized before they are saved, after they are born again the demons have no right to torment them any more and that they must automatically leave.




But what about Mrs. A ?



In light of this doctriinal teaching, the only possible explanations are:

1 -- She was not really saved. Otherwise she would not have been demonized. If she had really been saved the demons would have left her. After talking with her (which my husband and I did one night after the meeting), there was no doubt at all that this woman had been born again a few years before just as she had said. And I would not want to stand as judge and say that someone who testifies that they were born again and that they love the Lord Jesus with all their heart and soul was not really saved just because their experience disagreed with my personal beliefs and doctrine.

2 -- She was not really demonized, she was faking. No way. There is no way that anyone could have faked what we witnessed, especially as the demons were leaving.

3 -- Her seizures were not really caused by these occult demons, but were in fact a medical condition that just coincidentally disappeared after she was prayed for, even tho all of her previous medical treatments had failed. I don't think so.






I have also witnessed deliverance sessions where the person was living in some kind of sin, and was completely unrepentant, and was simply looking for some relief from the torment, but had no interest in serving the Lord or repenting of their sins. Guess what, the demons do not leave. They don't have to.




What I am going to say may sound unkind or judgemental, and please hear my heart, I really do not mean it that way at all. But I have read all of the arguments which supposedly prove Scripturally that a Christian cannot be demonized and in need of deliverance, and also that the verses that refer to casting out demons mean that we are to cast them out of unbelievers. I am not swayed by any of these lists of Scriptures and explanations, because quite truthfully, one can prove many very unscriptural things by citing verses and explaining them. That is how false doctrine starts, with scripture verses that supposedly prove it. For instance, I have read "scriptural proof" that all miracles of all kinds ceased when the Bible was written. I don't believe it for a second. And the entire Bible taken as a whole disagrees with this. And I have personally known of and witnessed and received numerous miracles over the 22 years I have been a Christian.


What I am trying to say is that this study does not do anything to help the scores of desperate Christians who are tormented by demons and cry out to God for deliverance. To tell them that they are really not affected by demons at all -- and many if those who are KNOW that they are because they have heard or seen them -- or that they are really not saved and that all they need to do is be born again and their problems will be over -- does nothing but heap condemnation and guilt on their already tormented souls.


And one more note -- I was born again Easter of 1982. I received a lot of deliverance and had many demons cast out of me from 2000 to 2002. In order for this study to be scriptural truth, one of the following must be true:

1 - I am lying.

2 - I am not really a Christian, or rather, I was not a Christian from 1982 to 2002.

3 - I am delusional and only think that demons were cast out of me.

4 - I am sane and telling the truth, and the conclusions drawn fom this "scriptural proof" are not true.


I ask that those reading please pray and ask the Lord for His truth.

Karen, can I just ask you a question?

When a person is saved then the Holy Spirit indwells that person. Yes?

That person is completely clean in the sight of God, and their sin has been forgiven.

So how can you believe that any newly saved person has demons?

That is what I do not understand.

Sorry I totally missed your other post to me...should have read that first and it may have saved more confusion...I am way way behind on post here.. :blush:

I just wanted to address this one comment for now:


It’s really interesting that you quote Hank Hanegraaff’s book ‘The Covering” here. Are you aware that he disagree’s with rebuking and binding, sees it as unscriptural? That’s why he wrote that particular book. To refute this very teaching and to help believer’s to understand ‘God’s plan to protect you from evil.’

Oh yes I am aware of his stance on this, I don't agree with it at all otherwise why is the word rebuke even in the bible and directed many times AT demons... :hmm: I listen to Hank on the radio almost daily and while I agree with most of what he says, there are some things I just don't agree with at all...and the reason is because scriptures say otherwise.

The reason I posted what I did from his book is because your first post pretty much seemed to say there really wasn't any spiritual battles going on and that all we had to do was follow Jesus and everything would be fine! I was trying to list other people besides me, that DO say spiritual warfare is real...which you appeared to be saying it wasn't...but now you are saying it is real....so anyway that is why I posted that section from Hank's book

I am not sure what you are talking about on the post from Chip...the references are bible verses that can be looked up and you can click to his website...though that was part four of a four part series..I will post part one:

http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID311646|CHID584334|CIID1512098,00.html

The Invisible War

Scripture tells us that we are involved in an invisible war, a cosmic conflict that has eternal implications. Attacks are launched and battles fought each day of our lives, whether we realize it or not. This four-part series by chip Ingram will help prepare you to do spiritual battle with the enemy of your soul and win. You will learn how to identify Satan's attacks and tactics, how to clothe yourself with God's "spiritual armor," and why, as a believer, you can be confident of victory over the enemy.


Living on the edge with Chip Ingram
Series: The Invisible War - Part 1
Spiritual Warfare 101

Selected Scriptures
10Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of His might. 11Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes
of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 6:10-12 NAS
General Command – “Allow yourself to be continually strengthened by
the power already made available to you in your new position and
relationship with Christ.” It is the power that raised Christ from the
dead and now dwells in you.
•
Specific Command – How? By continually and repeatedly putting on,
at specific points in time, the spiritual protection God has provided for you . . . for the express purpose of holding on to your position in Christ as you are bombarded by Satanic strategies designed to destroy you and/or render you ineffective in Kingdom pursuits.
•
The Reason For Commands In Verse 10 - 11 – It’s because our real
struggle (battle, wrestling match to the death) is not against
physical/material adversaries (people, circumstances, organizations),
but against a hierarchy of demonic forces doing battle in the spiritual
realm.
•
5 Basic Truths About Spiritual Warfare

1. There Is An Invisible World That Is Just As Real As The
Visible World. - Ephesians 6:12
Old Testament – 2 Kings 6:15 - 19 •
•
New Testament – 2 Corinthians 10:3 - 5

2. We Are Involved In An Invisible War, A Cosmic Conflict That
Has Eternal Implications. - Ephesians 6:12
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, . . . 2 Corinthians 10:3-5
NAS
•
•
•
. . . in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the
unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4 NAS

Application – When was the last time you honestly considered that some struggle or relational conflict was rooted in satanic opposition?

3. Our Foe Is Formidable And His Goal Is To Destroy Us And
Discredit The Cause Of Christ. - Ephesians 6:12
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about
like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 1 Peter 5:8 NAS
•
•
.
But Michael, the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued
about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing
judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you." Jude 9 NAS

Is Satan For Real?
2
Authority of the Bible – Genesis 3:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1, Revelation
12:9
Testimony of Christ – 25 References (Matthew 4)
Reality of Demons – He’s their “prince.” – Luke 11:15

Who Is Satan? .
.
A created spirit – Colossians 1:16, Job 1:3
An angel – Matthew 25:41, Revelation 12:7
A cherub – Ezekiel 28:14
Highest of all created beings – Ezekiel 28:14, Jude 9
Where Did He Come From?
Created perfect – Ezekiel 28:12 -13
Had heavenly estate – Jude 6
Guardian of God’s glory – Ezekiel 28
Occasion of his sin = power and beauty – Ezekiel 28
Nature of his sin = pride – 1 Timothy 3:6, Isaiah 14:13
Cause of his sin = personal free choice – Habakkuk 1:13, James
1:13

4. We Must Respect Our Foe, But Not Fear Him – Become
Acutely Aware Of His “Methods,” But Not Be Preoccupied By
Them. Ephesians 6:11

Paul agrees to forgive a brother along with the Corinthian church . . . “in order that no advantage be taken of us by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes.” 2 Corinthians 2:11 NAS
•
Satan’s Names Reveal His Tactics .
Satan (adversary)
Devil (slanderer) – 1 Peter 5
Lucifer (son of the morning)
Beelzebub – Matthew 12:24
Belial – 2 Corinthians 6:15
Evil one – 1 John 5:19
Tempter – 1 Thessalonians 3:5
Prince of this world – John 12:31
Accuser of the brethren
Representations include
Serpent – Genesis 3
3
Dragon – Revelation 12:3
Angel of Light – 2 Corinthians 11:14
Satan Attacks God’s Program, The Church, By . . . .
.
.
•
False philosophies – Colossians 2:8
False religions – 1 Corinthians 10:19
False ministers – 2 Corinthians 11:14-15
False doctrine – 1 John 2:18
False disciples – Matthew 13
False morals – 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Satan Attacks God’s People By . . .

Directing governments – Daniel 10:13
Deceiving men – 2 Corinthians 4:4
Destroying life – Hebrews 2:14
Persecuting the saints – Revelation 2:10
Preventing service – 1 Thessalonians 2:18
Promoting schisms – 2 Corinthians 2:10, 11
Planting doubt – Genesis 3:1-2

Provoking sin
Anger – Ephesians 4:26-27
Pride – 1 Timothy 3:6
Worry – Matthew 13:22
Self-reliance – 1 Chronicles 21:1
Discouragement – 1 Peter 5:6-8
Worldliness – 1 John 2:16
Lying – Acts 5:3
Immorality – 1 Corinthians 5:1-2
Producing sects/cults – 1 Timothy 4:1

Satan’s Power Is Limited
He is created, therefore not omniscient or infinite
He can be resisted by the Christian – James 4:7
God places limitations on him – Job 1:12

Application – “Balance” and wisdom are crucial in our assessment of
spiritual opposition. To assign too much or too little credit to the
reality of demonic activity is to error greatly.

5. As Believers In Christ, We Do Not Fight “For” Victory, We Fight
“From” Victory. In Christ’s Power We Are Invincible! - Ephesians
6:10
.
Promises From God Concerning Victory Over Satan
•
You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because
greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 1 John 4:4
NAS
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory
that has overcome the world -- our faith. 5And who is the one who
overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:4-5 NAS
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and
because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life
even to death. Revelation 12:11 NAS
Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
James 4:7 NAS
Summary
1. Satan is a defeated foe. – John 12:31
2. Jesus destroyed the work of the devil. – Colossians 2:14-15
3. We are victors in Christ. – 1 Corinthians 15:55-58
4. We have the power and resources to resist Satan and demonic
attacks. – I John 4:4
5. We must learn how to put on the “full armor of God” to experience in
daily living the victory we already possess. – Ephesians 6:13-17
Living on the Edge . 2003
www.lote.org 1-888-333-6003
PO Box 80069 Atlanta, GA 30366

All I am saying it spiritual warfare is real and to just pray isn't enough...it IS an important part of spiritual warfare but its not enough to only just pray as was suggested in the orginal post at the start of this thread.

God bless
Julie

karenmot - I have read this thread with great interest. I'd like to comment on a few of the points you make.
Quote:
kayte - For five years my family attended a church where walking in the light, self control, repentance and yielding to the Holy Spirit were seldom mentioned or practiced.

Every teachings base was ‘Spiritual Warfare’. It was the theme of every meeting and several times a week the believers would gather to wage war against principalities and powers of darkness.

If someone was struggling in a specific area, such as anger, then the ‘spirit of anger’ would be rebuked and bound and victory claimed.

Oddly, this had to be done repeatedly. Somehow that ‘spirit of anger’ kept getting loose… and most sadly, the person struggling continued right on struggling. There was no freedom found.

Any sins, any annoyances, any trials, any inconveniences, any discomforts or disease were considered to come from the hand of the evil one and what we were to do was take authority over them, binding them in the name of Jesus.

The list of harassing spirits is endless. From the spirit of lust, the spirit of chocolate cake to the spirit of tooth decay and frivolity. (That’s the one that makes you giggle when you’re supposed to be being serious.)

karenmot - This church was not balanced in their teaching, and definitely had their focus wrong, because there is no way that we can hope to successfully confront and gain victory over any demonic influence in our lives if we are not "walking in the light, self control, repentance and yielding to the Holy Spirit ".

The scripture says:

James 4:7-8
Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

You must first submit to God before you can hope to resist the devil.
Totally agree karen. This church was very off course. Due to time in the orginal study post, I didn’t go into great detail. The church was not always this way. It was over the course of five years that it reached this point. Actually to the point that the last time we talked to the pastor about these things, his response was that it doesn't matter if something is in the Bible or not... that we don’t need to stick to just the Bible in what we believe and do.

The emphasis moved from testing experiences according to scripture, to testing scripture according to experiences.

The thing I would disagree with in your comment is that we must first submit to God before you can hope to resist the devil.
I would say that submitting to God is resisting the devil… and I believe that the whole of scripture supports that.


Quote:
kayte - Years ago, the Lord had prompted me to begin praying for a small village near where I live. It was a dark and oppressed place. There were no churches and Christians were unwelcome. (Each year they have a jazz festival. One year they unwittingly had placed a Christian woman in their entertainment line-up. Before she got on stage she was confronted and told to leave.)

The very atmosphere of this village was stifling to Christians. I as well as anyone I knew couldn't go through there without feeling troubled.

For two years I bound Satan from this place... these people, and nothing changed. Then one day as I began to pray (yet again), the Lord spoke to my heart, "You have not because you pray amiss... why do you not see that it's the power of My love that will free them?"

Instantly I saw what I had done. My focus was on the enemy, not on God. I knew that I wielded no power in my feeble words... no matter how powerful they sounded in my own ears. That day, I prayed simply that He, in His unfathomable Love, would enter into that place. That the light of His love, the power of His love would cast light into this dark place.

Within one week a pastor and his family were directed by the Lord to sell their home in Pennsylvania and move to this village... to live with these people... to love them and to share His message.

Within two weeks one of the darkest businesses (the Purple Dragon) put a For Sale sign in their yard and left immediately.

Each Christmas the village attracts hundreds of tourist to shop and enjoy the wonderful display of lights. That year, for the first time, Christians were given permission by the village counsel to gather in caroling groups. And they sang, "Joy to the world, the Lord is come..."

Is the village still dark? Yes. But there is Light and the wonder of His Love is at work in the hearts of men.


karenmot - Where is this village that you lived near? Were you a missionary?
The village is about 30 minutes away from where I live in NewMexico. No.. I’m not a missionary in the sense of going to a foreign land to share the gospel.

Is it the word village that confused? Here, when a community is too small to be called a town... there’s not even a grocery store, we refer to those as ‘villages’.

The one I’m referring to was a mining town back in the early 1900’s. The mine closed down and it became a ‘ghost town’ until the 60’s when hippies moved into it. Before long, they discovered that they needed money after all, in order to eat.. lol.. so they began opening up the houses along the main street (there is only one paved street) and began advertising ‘art’. It’s become a tourist spot of art galleries since then.

The Purple Dragon that I mentioned earlier sold all manner of occult items.. crystal balls, etc. It was the worst of the worst as far as that kind of thing goes. Sadly, they had a very lucritive business. Tourist would buy these ‘unique’ things as memorabilia of their trip to this weird place.
Anyway.. it was such an answer to prayer when the owners suddenly packed up and left! I don’t know what the ‘earthly’ reason for their departure was… but I do know it was God. By His great love for these people, He shined the Light into their darkness.

As I said, Christians are now permitted to sing Christian carols on the street each Christmas… and they do.. loud and joyfully.


Quote:
kayte - About the armor.. let's check out the passage.
Ephesians 1:1-9 talks about how we're to be in our family roles and how servants and masters are to be.. then we get to the armor passages. (I don't see this as a complete change of subjects.. Paul is continuing to tell us how we ought to live.)

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We have to look at what the wiles of the devil are. We know that he desires to kill, steal and destroy. To kill our witness, to kill our faith,.. to steal our hope, to steal our freedom from sin,... to destroy our credibility in and outside the church, to destroy our effectiveness. To snare us into sin again.. to cause us to doubt our salvation. To cause us to doubt God's love for us.


karenmot - I find your interpretation of this passage in Ephesians quite interesting.

Ephesians 6:10-17
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Put on the whole armour of God,that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God...


karenmot - What you have said is true -- that we need to "...Pray to God .. pray for all the saints. In this way we defeat the enemy.
Pray that the gospel will go forth.
Pray that no matter what chains surround.. that the body of Christ would boldly proclaim the good news...."
but that is NOT what Paul is talking about here. He starts this passage by stating that we are not wrestling flesh and blood, but demons!!

This passage of Scripture deals with all that is necessary in our lives in order to be able to prevail when we wrestle with these principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places ( demons!! ):

1. Truth
2. Righteousness
3. Being ready to go and preach the gospel of peace
4. Faith
5. Salvation
6.The Word of God

This is why the church that you described that you went to for many years was way off -- you do not simply sit passively by and rebuke demons, neglecting a real relationship with God. You instead must be seeking God with all of your heart and soul in order to be able to defeat the evil that would oppress you.
I agree that this passage is about how we’re to deal with demons. My position is that Paul is telling us exactly how to do that… not what we need to do ‘first’ in order to defeat them.. but that living according to these verses IS defeating them.. this IS the battle. The battle for our minds, for our witness, for the gospel to preached is won through obediance to these things.
In seeking God with our heart and soul is defeating the evil that would oppress us.


Quote:
karenmot - There's nothing in this passage about binding or rebuking demons. It is about standing in Christ.. abiding in Him.. following Him through this battle of worldliness and coming out standing to His glory. This is 'resisting the devil and making him flee'.

That is absolutely true. There is no mention in this passage of binding or rebuking demons. That's not what it is about. But it is about confronting and defeating them. That is the point of the passage.
But you’ve indicated that we confront and defeat them by binding and or rebuking them to defeat them…?

I don't generally like to use other sources, more challenging to try to say it myself.. lol.. but maybe this article will help clarify… the rest of the article can be read at http://www.equip.org/free/DS230.htm

Much of the confusion that exists over spiritual warfare arises from taking Bible passages that have a limited application and treating them as if they have no limits. The Bible does say that Christ has unlimited authority over demons, and He gave His disciples the specific authority to cast demons out of possessed individuals and to overcome any other manifestations of the Evil One they might encounter in the work of preaching the Gospel (Matt. 10:1; Mark 3:13–15; Luke 10:17–20; cf. Acts 13:7b–12). In that context, we do find believers in the Gospels and the book of Acts directly addressing demons, rebuking them (not Satan himself; cf. Jude 8–10), and casting them out of people.
Jesus never even hinted, however, that this authority carried over into our personal battles with sin and Satan.
Nowhere do we find the apostles or disciples addressing invisible spirits (i.e., spirits that are not inhabiting a human body). We are promised victory over the Devil in James 4:7: if we resist him, he will flee from us; but we are never told that we resist him by commanding him to leave us alone. In the larger context of James 4, it is clear that this resistance involves submitting to God, drawing near to Him, becoming serious about repentance, and humbling ourselves in the presence of the Lord (James 4:7-10). The same applies to all other Bible passages that speak of resisting Satan (e.g., Eph. 6:13-18; 1 Pet. 5:5-10).
Spiritual warfare does not consist in addressing the devil but rather in addressing God in prayer; it is not a matter of asserting one’s own authority to use Christ’s name over the Devil but rather of standing firm and unmovable in one’s faith in, and obedience to, God. This sustained commitment in the face of spiritual opposition — a moral exercise that causes us to grow in the image of Christ — is what makes the Devil go away.
Satan will be “bound” and cast out of our presence at the Second Coming (Rev. 20:1-3), but in the meantime he serves a purpose in God’s development of our character,15 and it is only our steadfast resistance of evil that makes him flee — not the mere utterance of words or the assertion of our authority in Christ.

Another snippet: http://www.equip.org/free/DA086.htm deliverance ministry in historical perspective

The classic texts on spiritual warfare - Ephesians 6:10-20; James 3:14-4:12; 1 Peter 5:6-11 - teach a mode of fighting the devil’s bid for lordship that centers on the Word of the living God, faith, repentance, prayer, and obedience in the power of the Spirit. There is no hint of exorcistic methods in these passages, because the Bible does not view the problem of sin, especially in Christians, as linked to an indwelling demon who must be evicted.

In part three of spirtual warfare of the Chips study on spiritual warfare I wanted to post just this...these are very long and we have very long post on here already...I don't know that I can work through off of them...so in order to just shorten it (though upon request I will post the whole thing) I wanted to put just this from part three which tells us how to go past 'standing' to battle in spiritual warfare if need be.

Summary: How To Engage The Enemy In Spiritual Warfare
1. Prerequisite is a healthy spiritual life.
2. Understand your position in Christ.
3. Discern when demonic influence may be the cause.

4. Claim God’s promises out loud. 1 John 4:4, 1 John 5:4-5
5. Take our authority and position in Christ to command demonic forces to cease their activity and depart. (me: this sounds like rebuking...what does the word, rebuking mean?)

Key Resources
Biblical Text Books = Balanced Reading
James 4:1-8 The Invisible War – Donald Grey Barnhouse
Ephesians 6:11-18 Spiritual Warfare – Ray C. Stedman
1 John 4:4, 5:4-5 The Adversary – Mark Bubeck
Revelation 12:10-12 Overcoming the Adversary –Mark Bubeck
Living on the Edge . 2003
www.lote.org 1-888-333-6003
PO Box 80069 Atlanta, GA 30366


rebuke orginal greek:

Strong's Number: 2008 eÍpitima/w
Original Word Word Origin
eÍpitima/w from (1909) and (5091)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Epitimao ep-ee-tee-mah'-o
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 2:623,249
Definition
to show honour to, to honour
to raise the price of
to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty
to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely
to admonish or charge sharply

Translated Words
KJV (29) - charge, 4; rebuke, 24; straightly charge, 1;
NAS (30) - rebuke, 6; rebuked, 13; rebuking, 3; sternly telling, 2; sternly told, 1; warned, 5;


taken from this verse:

Book of Matthew
Chapter 17 And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once *.

you can click on this link: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+17:18&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1

And see that verse...and see it written in its orginal greek lanuage and you can click on underlined words to see the bibical defination of certain words. The bible's words don't always mean the same thing as the world's defination of them, such as the word 'death' in bibical terms does not necessarily mean physically dead, it can also mean 'hell'.

In this case I don't think Jesus was honouring or 'rewarding' the demons...

(I will type slower Cilla... :lol: )

Julie :hug:

Of course kayte isn't. Far from it. The whole point is that she has worked really hard with this study and has given it much prayer, as you can see from the title! It is good for us all to keep in touch with God and His Word all the time. None of us want to see any false teaching, especially when younger Christians are reading these posts.


That is the problem when one person is trying to answer three! Just give her time. :hug: I have been looking into this half the day and still haven't collected enough thoughts together to make a post!!

Your trouble is that you type too fast!! :P :lol:

(I will type slower Cilla... :lol: )
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so far behind again my head is spinning! :spin: :lol:
I'm working as fast as I can! We need a smilie that's keeling over from exhaustion. :tongue2:

kayte I won't post anymore today...sorry to overwhelm you as I said I haven't even read through all the post and didn't realize I had missed an earlier one of yours either...:(

I know you were addressing Karenmont but I wanted to make one comment you posted from Hank's site...see this is where he and I differ:


Spiritual warfare does not consist in addressing the devil but rather in addressing God in prayer; it is not a matter of asserting one’s own authority to use Christ’s name over the Devil but rather of standing firm and unmovable in one’s faith in, and obedience to, God. This sustained commitment in the face of spiritual opposition — a moral exercise that causes us to grow in the image of Christ — is what makes the Devil go away.

If this was true, why didn't this help my son? :( I also hear others calling into Hank Bible Answer man show with questions of spiritual warfare, they are being attacked and he says to just pray and read the bible and follow Christ and they say they ARE!! But its still happening and they are so desperate for help! I have heard of several saying they wake up to find they are being physcially held down by something unseen and he says its impossible...:( There must be alot of crazy Christians out there then! I have seen people post this same problem on the board desperate for help! I guess others must think they are dreaming or imaging it...but it seems odd that they all report excatly the same thing...

I did not doubt God when my son raged...no for one second, nor did my faith weaken...I continued to pray....I didn't know of anything esle to do and it just was NOT enough! Not until I started activitly rebuking IN Jesus Name...I am very aware this power if you will...did NOT come from me..it came from Jesus and the power in His Name. All I know is it worked when nothing esle did.


The classic texts on spiritual warfare - Ephesians 6:10-20; James 3:14-4:12; 1 Peter 5:6-11 - teach a mode of fighting the devil’s bid for lordship that centers on the Word of the living God, faith, repentance, prayer, and obedience in the power of the Spirit. There is no hint of exorcistic methods in these passages, because the Bible does not view the problem of sin, especially in Christians, as linked to an indwelling demon who must be evicted.

See Hank focuses on sin here, even in his book The Covering...he does a great job explaining about the attacks on us, and what the bible verses mean but he confuses these attacks with sin. This isn't about sin. Like the lady who Karen talked about with the seizures...was having seizures sinnful in some way and she just didn't want to admit she was sinning and wanting to blame her 'sin' (the seizures) on some demon? Hank focuses in his book on people using demons as an excuse for their behavior...saying literally...the devil made me do it. This is NOT what Karen and I and others are saying at all! Was Nate being sinnful by banging his head into doors and walls and by saying he saw and heard things not there?

Can you even say a three year old is sinning by hurting himself or others when he really is just out of control and raging? Is hearing and seeing things not there a sin? Of course we don't say that! This isn't some cop out he is doing...well actually he isn't even aware of the spiritual warfare I have done on his behalf...so he can't even say, oh the devil made me do it...he was too young to know what was happening to him.

Of course in his case everyone assumed (including me) that he was seriously mentally ill...so I just accepted that right? Sure I did...I listened to what the world said was wrong with him and allowed him to take dangerous and heavy duty medication that were to 'help' him..:( And they didn't help...not one bit. Nothing changed! Nothing!

In fact when he started getting better nothing had changed on his meds, his therapy had not changed, nothing had changed at home..everything was excatly the same EXCEPT I starting rebuking the evil spirit bothering him. Plain and simple. I said it so quietly he didn't hear me yet his behavior just suddenly changed for no reason? Even his mental health case worker, his dr, his therapist couldn't figure out why he was suddenly getting better when he had been getting worse and worse....they had no explaination for it...no reason for it. For them dealing with kids like him is just a guessing game anyway....sure they do their best but his meds were constantly changed, try this in dealing with him and try that in dealing with him...just desperate to find something to help him but nothing was, and I even gave up on med changes so he had been on the same meds for awhile and still nothing had changed until I started rebuking in the Name of Jesus. You say and others say its not bibical to rebuke even though Jesus did it and many others did it in the bible...This worked and if it didn't come from Jesus then where did it come from?

The only other explaination is satan gave me the power to use Jesus' name to rebuke his demons and what did Jesus say to the reglious leaders when he was accussed of using satan's powers? How can satan rebuke satan? how can a house divided stand? Its not possible for satan to give the power to someone to rebuke himself.

So that leaves only one other option.

Luke 10:17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.” 18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy: nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Apparently He DID give us the ability to do this IN His Name..not in our name and not by our authority. Hank confuses this with sin, what we are talking about has nothing to do with sin at all in these two cases and in many other cases.

God bless
Julie

Moonglow,

You did an awesome job of explaining that. I love how your words and ideas are so put together and how they stand up to the word of God. Your post was truely Awesome to read.:spin:

Your sister in Christ,:hug:

Elizabeth

Karen, can I just ask you a question?

When a person is saved then the Holy Spirit indwells that person. Yes?

That person is completely clean in the sight of God, and their sin has been forgiven.

So how can you believe that any newly saved person has demons?

That is what I do not understand.
Hi Cilla,

Yes, of course when a person is saved the Holy Spirit dwells in that persons.

Their sin has been forgiven, and positionally that person is clean in the sight of God (we have His righteousness).

But to say they are "completely clean" -- well , it depends on what you mean by that. I cannot think of a chapter and verse that says we are "completely clean". Positionally we have the righteousness of God, etc., but where does it say that we are "completely clean"?



I have known many many many people who lived lives full of sin prior to being saved. They were most definitely demonized. They even saw and/or heard the demons, and knrew full well they were there.

They then got saved, and guess what? The demons did not automatically leave.

Now what? Do you just tell them to pray more? They have been praying their heart out. Tell them that the demons are gone? Well, they know full well the demons are not gone.





I have said it before and I'll gladly say it again -- the Holy Spirit lives in our spirit. The person in need of deliverance is demonized in their soul or body.

Something I think that is really important is that we never look to anything but scripture for the truth, I see a lot of instances of "experiances" here, but no scripture to back them up.
We must check and recheck everything we do and believe with scripture, just because we wittness something doesn't make it scriptural, we must be careful not to be led astray by experiances and false teachings.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, for they recieved the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Something I think that is really important is that we never look to anything but scripture for the truth, I see a lot of instances of "experiances" here, but no scripture to back them up.
We must check and recheck everything we do and believe with scripture, just because we wittness something doesn't make it scriptural, we must be careful not to be led astray by experiances and false teachings.

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, for they recieved the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
True, but Scripture is subject to our human interpretation, and verses could be found to back up any position one wants to take on this subject. I am not doubting the truth of the Scriptures that have been offered in this study -- God's word is true, and let God be true and man be a liar. I am saying that the particular interpretation of the Scriptures is not correct.


I have been reading a lot of Scriptures and then personal opinion on what it means based on a doctrinal position.

True, but Scripture is subject to our human interpretation, and verses could be found to back up any position one wants to take on this subject. I am not doubting the truth of the Scriptures that have been offered in this study -- God's word is true, and let God be true and man be a liar. I am saying that the particular interpretation of the Scriptures is not correct.


I have been reading a lot of Scriptures and then personal opinion on what it means based on a doctrinal position.
While it's true that there are many different interpretations given by people, there are rules to interpretation. One of the main rules is context.. always looking at what the verses actually say within their context.. within the paragraph, within the context of the whole subject that's being covered and within the context of the book itself.

We're never to take one verse (or many), wrenched out of context and build a doctrine around it.

The problem I'm seeing we're having here is that as I'm taking each of the verses that come up and showing them in their context, that gets ignored and we move on to experiences to back up, confirm or prove beliefs. Then it's no longer bible study but personal experiences outweighing scripture.

To take a verse in its context shuts the door on interpreting it based on doctrinal position or experience.. rather, doctrinal positions should grow from taking verses in their context.

True ‘spiritual warfare’ is to obey God. To do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God.

I totally agree with this.

I think it is important to look at the places in the NT where the word armor is used:

Romans 13:12-14 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

2 Corinthians 6:4-10 But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses, in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in fastings; by purity, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Spirit, by sincere love, by the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold we live; as chastened, and yet not killed; as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Ephesians 6:10-20 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

I would also like to look at Luke 10.

Luke 10:17-20 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."

From above we see that they were not to rejoice that the spirits were subject to them. I think it is important to look at the instructions they were given before they went out.

Luke 10:1-12 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. But whatever house you enter, first say, "Peace to this house." And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. And heal the sick there, and say to them, "The kingdom of God has come near to you." But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, "The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you." But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.

I would also like to share an experience this is just a paste job from another time when I wrote it:

It happened when I was about 10 or 11 and I know it was this age because it happened when I was in my bedroom that I had only during this time. It went on for I’m not sure, a few weeks to a few months. What happened is when I was in this room alone I would hear voices. Now I can not remember, but I know I knew at the time, if it was one voice or many different voices, but it was not my voice, at least I did not recognize it to be my voice, i.e. it did not sound like my speaking voice or my thinking "voice". I think as I remember back that it started as one but then became many. I can not remember, but I know I knew at the time, if I heard the voices in my head or out there in the room, but I think it was out in the room. I do remember wondering if this was my subconscious, yes a 10 year old can wonder that, or if it was something else going on, i.e. something outside of me (demonic). I just didn’t know back then which it was and I still don’t know (but I am pretty sure it was demonic). I did not tell anyone, they would think I was crazy and I did know that I was not crazy or at least I was not going to allow myself to go crazy. What the voice(s) said was that "You’re bad". It/they would keep repeating that in a condemning tone of voice and I believe but I am not sure, I don’t remember clearly, that at some point the tone of voice(s) changed to a more enticing tone like that it was a good thing to be bad and it/they wanted me to join it/them. My response to these voices was to tell it/them that I was not going to pay attention to them, I was not going to listen, they could keep it up, but that they were wasting their time and that they might as well realize that they should just go away. I was not really afraid of the voices and I didn’t avoid going into my room, but I did think this was very strange. Finally the voice(s) went away.

And one more note -- I was born again Easter of 1982. I received a lot of deliverance and had many demons cast out of me from 2000 to 2002. In order for this study to be scriptural truth, one of the following must be true:

1 - I am lying.

2 - I am not really a Christian, or rather, I was not a Christian from 1982 to 2002.

3 - I am delusional and only think that demons were cast out of me.

4 - I am sane and telling the truth, and the conclusions drawn fom this "scriptural proof" are not true.


I ask that those reading please pray and ask the Lord for His truth.

Could you explain what it was that convinced you that demons were cast out of you?

Study questions
#
1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

I would say that I lean twards just not acknowlegeing that satan or demons can do anything at all..(which I should clarify I know is not true, but) I have seen so many lives truely destroyed and ruled by the belief that you must cast out and bind up the evil things of this world, that people don't take responsibility for the things they've done wrong, or that because someone is sick, they don't have enough faith and so satan is harassing them. It is wrong... It is sad... The thing I need to do to be "free" here is to realize exactly that Satan or the demons have absolutely no power over our lives unless it is granted by the Lord. The way I look at these times, like for instance in Job is this... I see that because God loved Job so much and wanted Job to know the fullness of His love, He is the one who asks satan if he'd considered Job, and gives satan permission to test him in every possible way except for a few rules... So I don't see this so much as a place to be concerned with satan, but more to be in a place of praiseing the Lord because He is faithful even when everything else is going wrong, and that through our horrible situations, well, we grow and we can either cling to God through them, or we can focus on how horrible it is and who might be doing it to us. Personally I'd rather give God the glory! Like in James 1:2-4 Consider it pure joy my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish it's work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

No, I'm not afraid of satan, he has no power over me that God isn't in control of. Sometimes I fear what the Lord might alow him to do however, Job had it pretty hard! But I also know that I'll grow in those hard times, so I try to count it joy.

3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

by submiting to God, if my heart and mind is focused on the Lord and He consumes my every thought, well, then satan doesn't have much of a chance to get in there.

4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

That He loves us amazingly... Wow... And again, that He is in control!

5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

ummm, I am not sure how to answer the first part... but three verses...
James 1:2-4
James 1:12
Colossians 3:2-3
I think we must focus on God in those times and strive to please Him.

6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

Yes, I have watched many people had demons "bound and cast" out of them and it brought them no healing, no nothing, it was just a thing they had to do on a weekly basis.. they still struggled, they still sinned, they where still sick.. So no, I don't believe that there is any real power in it, it's just some really powerful sounding words that are not what God told us to pray.

7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

That would be #2

I would also like to share an experience this is just a paste job from another time when I wrote it:

It happened when I was about 10 or 11 and I know it was this age because it happened when I was in my bedroom that I had only during this time. It went on for I’m not sure, a few weeks to a few months. What happened is when I was in this room alone I would hear voices. Now I can not remember, but I know I knew at the time, if it was one voice or many different voices, but it was not my voice, at least I did not recognize it to be my voice, i.e. it did not sound like my speaking voice or my thinking "voice". I think as I remember back that it started as one but then became many. I can not remember, but I know I knew at the time, if I heard the voices in my head or out there in the room, but I think it was out in the room. I do remember wondering if this was my subconscious, yes a 10 year old can wonder that, or if it was something else going on, i.e. something outside of me (demonic). I just didn’t know back then which it was and I still don’t know (but I am pretty sure it was demonic). I did not tell anyone, they would think I was crazy and I did know that I was not crazy or at least I was not going to allow myself to go crazy. What the voice(s) said was that "You’re bad". It/they would keep repeating that in a condemning tone of voice and I believe but I am not sure, I don’t remember clearly, that at some point the tone of voice(s) changed to a more enticing tone like that it was a good thing to be bad and it/they wanted me to join it/them. My response to these voices was to tell it/them that I was not going to pay attention to them, I was not going to listen, they could keep it up, but that they were wasting their time and that they might as well realize that they should just go away. I was not really afraid of the voices and I didn’t avoid going into my room, but I did think this was very strange. Finally the voice(s) went away.

Have you read my testimony in the Testimonies folder? I relate a similar experience with "voices':

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=5124

Have you read my testimony in the Testimonies folder? I relate a similar experience with "voices':

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=5124

I just read it and I remember having read it one other time. Karenmot although we both heard voices and I do believe it is very likely that what we both heard was demonic there are vaste differences in our testimony. First of all I never wanted or was entranced by POWER although I know that was what was supposedly being offered. Let's not forget Satan's supposed offer to Jesus (Matthew 4:8-9, Luke 4:5-7).

Second our responses were totally different. I also find it quite interesting that you said when you went into a Catholic Church the voices would not follow you there. From my understanding from what I have read from your posts it is your belief now that the Catholic Church is "demon possessed". How would something that is "demon possessed" ward off demons? I am in no way here trying to defend the RCC because I think there are serious problems with the RCC.

I am now convinced that in fact you have been plagued by demons. As have I, but those demons did not plague me for years and years BECAUSE they had nothing I wanted AND I basically ignored them.

I have been on this board for awhile. And I truthfully have to say that I have been very worried for both you and moonglow and how the both of you in my opinion seem to be obsessed with demons. Not to say they do not exist, but it is very easy to read into things demons where they don't exist and it is very easy to attribute to them more power than they do have. The only power they have is power we give them. Our calling is to Christ and that is where our focus needs to be.

Could you explain what it was that convinced you that demons were cast out of you?


I have not posted many details of my deliverances because I know that there are many on this board who do not believe that it is possible for a Christian to be demonized. I tend to stay out of these types of discussions if possible. But when anyne offers Scriptural proof that was has happened to me is impossible, I feel the need to speak up, as I have in this thread.


You have asked a very straightforward question, Christinme, and the only way I can answer it is to give some details, so I will.


My husband and I started attending a weekly deliverance service at a local church because he was tormented by demons and had been crying out to the Lord for help. I went along with him simply to support him, and just to keep an eye on things. He had rededicated his life to God after 23 years of believing that he had lost his salvation, and we both believed that that would end the harassment, but instead it only got worse.

One night after we had been attending for several months, one of the women prayer counselors said that she felt that the Lord wanted her to pray for me. I went over to another part of the room with her, and thought that she wanted to pray with and for me for strength, wisdom, etc. I thought that was a great idea, as I had been stressed about what my husband was going through . But instead of praying a "bless me" type of prayer, she laid hands on me and started rebuking demons and commanding them to come out in the name of Jesus. At first I was shocked -- I was sure that I did not have any demons, you know -- my husband was the one with problems, but I was fine thank-you-very-much. I started to try to object, but I couldn't -- you see, the demons in me started to react, and come up through my throat and gag me. There is absolutely no way to explain it to anyone who has not had it happen to them.

So to answer your question -- what convinced me that demons were cast out of me? -- when it happens, you know.



I can hear the objections. To save time and trouble I will answer them now before you have to post them (directed to no one in particular, just anyone who would object ---)


You may say that I only thought it was happening -- or that I had been witnessing supposed deliverances for months and was just subconsciously mimicking what I had seen others do. Forgive my bluntness, but give me a break!! Remember, I did not think that I had any demons, remember? Why would I want to pretend they were being cast out? And the experience (yes, there's that dirty word again -- EXPERIENCE) of having one rise up in your throat and choke and gag you is -- inexplainable.


Or, you may say that I was mentally distraught from what had been happening with my husband, and only went through the motions of writhing and gagging and choking thinking that it was an easy way out of our problems -- once again, give me a break!! I had been crying out to God for years for help, and for help for my husband, and He answered. Plain and simple.




OK, OK, I know that there is absolutely no way that I am going to convince some of you, so I am not even going to try. That is not why I have decoided to participate in this thread -- I did not hope to play dueling Scriptures, trying to win an argument in my favor. I have been studying spiritual warfare for 20 years, and deliverance for the past 4 or so, and one thing I have learned is that no matter what you say and what proof you show, some people just are not going to believe you. And that's OK with me. I only share what I do for those who are struggling and in need of help, and hoping for someone else to help them make sense of what is happening to them.



-------------------------------------------------------------


One final point, and really, this is the most important thing I am going to say in this post so I am putting it in RED for emphasis. I have read the Scriptures posted in this thread -- in context -- and I still am not convinced. Why? Yes, it's that dreaded nasty word again -- EXPERIENCE!!!


Just to put it in perspective and give some food for thought --


I have been on this board for about a year and a half, and have read a lot of studies posted by members that cite a lot of Scriptures -- in context -- that prove Scripturally beyond a shadow of a doubt that:

1 -- You can never lose your salvation -- once saved, always saved.

2 -- You can lose your salvation if you walk away from God, so you better be careful and live right.

3 -- Only the elect will be saved, and Jesus did not die to save all of mankind, but only the elect.

4 -- Jesus died for all men and anyone can be saved who calls on His name.

5 -- The church will be raptured at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation.

6 -- There will be no rapture prior to the tribulation -- everyone goes at the same time at the end of the 7 years.

7 -- There will be no 7 year tribulation.

8 -- All miracles ceased when the Bible was complete.

9 -- Miracles still happen today.

10 -- Speaking in tongues is a gift from God for the church today.

11 -- Speaking in tongues is not from God and is a demonic deception.



You get the idea. I have read post after post after post and study after study after study showing Scriptural proof -- in context -- that all of the above are true. Well, common sense says that they cannot all be true. So how do we know what is true or not? Well, we drop all of our doctrinal likes and dislikes, and what we have been taught by others, and our church traditions, and what our Daddy and Momma have taught us since babyhood, etc. -- and we let God speak directly to our spirit and teach us out of his word.


And I am going to bring up that dirty little word again -- EXPERIENCES -- if our personal interpretation of Scripture does not hold up in practical day to day life, it may be time to re-examine our interpretation. No one is perfect but God, no one is infallible but God, and no one can claim to have perfect knowledge but God ( me included!! :) ).


I know what I know because I have lived through the school of hard knocks -- yes, because of my EXPERIENCES. But none of what has happened to me violates or contradicts anything in Scripture. It does disagree with the doctrinal position and Scriptural interpretation being presented in this study. But nowhere in the Word of God does it say in plain language with no interpretation needed that it could not have happened.

Karenmot,

Thank you for sharing that and as I said in my post #51 I believe you. However I do not think that this study diminishes your experiences or that your experiences diminish this study.

What you have related is that the focus was on your husband when in fact the focus needed to be on you. If you had of realized this and focused your prayers there you don't really know what would have happened. I don't think we can underestimate the power of prayer. At the same time I do not think we can underestimate the presence (notice I didn't use the word power) of demons.

I also wish to speak to moonglow here, I think what Karenmot has just spoken about is relevant in your case. Was it really a problem with your little son who needed his demons rebuked or was it really the case of his parents demons needing to be rebuked? Were the prayers not really working for him because the prayers needed to be for his parents?

Karenmot,

Thank you for sharing that and as I said in my post #51 I believe you. However I do not think that this study diminishes your experiences or that your experiences diminish this study.

What you have related is that the focus was on your husband when in fact the focus needed to be on you. If you had of realized this and focused your prayers there you don't really know what would have happened. I don't think we can underestimate the power of prayer. At the same time I do not think we can underestimate the presence (notice I didn't use the word power) of demons.


Thank you for the word of support, Christinme. I really appreciate it.

And you know what? You are 100% correct. For years I spent too much time focusing on my husband and his problems, begging God to do something, and nothing changed.

But when I instead started focusing on my own spiritual growth and my relationship with God, and decided that I was going to get closer to the Lord and go on, whether my husband was restored or not, guess what? Things started changing right away.


And the end result is that within a matter of weeks after making that decision my husband rededicated his life to the Lord after 23 years of backsliding.

I also find it quite interesting that you said when you went into a Catholic Church the voices would not follow you there. From my understanding from what I have read from your posts it is your belief now that the Catholic Church is "demon possessed". How would something that is "demon possessed" ward off demons? I am in no way here trying to defend the RCC because I think there are serious problems with the RCC.


Oh, and I wanted to comment on this even though it is really not keeping to the topic of the thread. Forgive the temporary derailment.....


When all that stuff in my testimony was happening to me I was not a Christian. I had been raised as a Catholic but was not practicing it at all. I believed in God and knew He was there, but I also knew that the devil was there and believed that they were equal in power, and in any confrontation between the two it was a toss up who would win.


When things started to get real bad for me as I related, and the demons starting tormenting me mercilessly and telling me they were going to kill me, I knew that if I had any hope at all it was going to have to come from God. That He would be the only one who could possibly help me. Because of my Catholic upbringing I saw the Catholic church as the place that you went if you wanted to get in touch with God. So I went into the empty church as an effort to seek God's help. And He was very merciful, and met me at my level of faith, and prevented the demons from following me inside when I went into the church.

So the Catholic church in and of itself did nothing to ward off the demons or help or protect me. The Lord did it, because He knew that in my heart I was trying to find Him in the only way that I knew.


Oh, and one more point of clarification -- I do not believe that the Catholic church is demon possessed. But I do believe that Catholic doctrine is demon inspired.

I believed in God and knew He was there, but I also knew that the devil was there and believed that they were equal in power, and in any confrontation between the two it was a toss up who would win.
We both know know that this is not true and that Christ has already paved the way ;).

But instead of praying a "bless me" type of prayer, she laid hands on me and started rebuking demons and commanding them to come out in the name of Jesus.
Karen, I am not saying this against you in any way at all, but I am saying it to any younger Christians who may be feeling confused. I believe this statement here holds the key to a great deal of distress and fear and torment because it borders on a parallel with the occult.

If someone wishes to discuss this at all then maybe another thread should be commenced, as it is a great shame and a concern to me that people are bringing in experiences without answering the study questions.

To a younger Christian who is troubled that they may have demons I feel a far better word to use is 'desires.' Not evil demons but evil desires.

Once a person is saved then Jesus is strong enough to take away these desires from our lives, by our own heartfelt prayer, and those of other Christians, without consulting a medium, and without any laying on of hands. We are God's children by adoption and we bring everything to our Father.

Romans 8 v37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
v38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
v39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here is the NLT......

37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from His love. Death can’t, and life can’t. The angels can’t, and the demons can’t. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can’t keep God’s love away. 39 Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Karen, you are my sister in Christ, and as such I love you. I am not saying this to you because I feel that would achieve nothing, and the last thing I want to do is upset you. I am saying this to any other Christian who may become fearful when there is no need. For " Perfect Love casteth out fear."

Karen, I am not saying this against you in any way at all, but I am saying it to any younger Christians who may be feeling confused. I believe this statement here holds the key to a great deal of distress and fear and torment because it borders on a parallel with the occult.

If someone wishes to discuss this at all then maybe another thread should be commenced, as it is a great shame and a concern to me that people are bringing in experiences without answering the study questions.

To a younger Christian who is troubled that they may have demons I feel a far better word to use is 'desires.' Not evil demons but evil desires.
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Karen, you are my sister in Christ, and as such I love you. I am not saying this to you because I feel that would achieve nothing, and the last thing I want to do is upset you. I am saying this to any other Christian who may become fearful when there is no need. For " Perfect Love casteth out fear."

Hi Cilla,

I also consider you to be my dear sister in Christ, and greatly appreciate the gentle loving non-judgemental tone of your post.

I agree that this subject can be confusing for those who are young in the faith, and have chosen my words carefully, trying to be considerate of those who are more sensitive.

However, I disagree that perhaps it would be better to discuss this in another thread, as in actual fact we are discussing the very topuc that was brought up -- spiritual warfare, and exactly what that is.

I also disagree with your statement that evil demons should instead be called evil desires. A demon is not a desire, and a desire is not a demon.

The Bible speaks of 3 different things -- the world, the devil and his demons, and the flesh. All 3 can entice us to sin and therefore keep us from a right relationship with God if we do give into the temptation.

Spiritual warfare in the sense that I have been discussing -- as decribed in the Ephesians armor of God passage, is not resisting our flesh. It is resisting and fighting and winning the battle over -- demons. Yes, real spirit beings that inhabit the spirit world.

I understand that many Christians find this subject troubling, and would either not talk about it or even outright deny that there are supernatural evil beings that inhabit the spirit world and try to bother us. But the Bible makes it abundantly clear that this is true.

If you feel that my stating that I know that I am battling demons borders on the occult, well, you are entitled to your opinion. But as I have stated in my testimony and elsewhere, I was once very involved in the occult, actively working and communicating with those very demons to gratify my fleshly desires. Now I wholeheartedly resist them and refuse to do their bidding anymore. This is not occultic, but extremely Biblical.

I also feel that it is extremely unhelpful to tell a new and struggling Christian who is being tormented by demons that the reason for the torment is because they are battling their own evil desires. This only heaps condemnation and shame on their already tormented souls. We do them a real favor when we explain that in fact they are not battling with themself, but with a supernatural being that they have the authority to defeat in the name of Jesus and by the power of His shed blood.



I also do not understand why you seem to feel that it may be inappropriate to post my experiences without first answering the study questions. But if it will make you feel better about what I have posted I would be happy to answer them, although I feel that they are doctrinally slanted towards the other viewpoint, and as such you may not like my answers.

I also wish to speak to moonglow here, I think what Karenmot has just spoken about is relevant in your case. Was it really a problem with your little son who needed his demons rebuked or was it really the case of his parents demons needing to be rebuked? Were the prayers not really working for him because the prayers needed to be for his parents?

Sorry I haven't been on here much the last couple of days and probably won't beable to catch up on all these posts for awhile...busy busy! So I just now read this.

Chistinme, I did pray for me and for Nate's dad..while he was still in the picture and after he was out of the picture (he is in prison and we have had no contact for years)

I also did what the bible says, where you want to pray but just don't have the words, no longer no what to pray for....the moanings and groaning the Holy Spirit can understand. At any rate, nothing worked until I rebuke whatever was bothering Nate in the Name of Jesus and the change was instant. How does anyone explain that? I don't know...I just know I read the bible, I prayed, I cleaned my home of anything offensive to God and it worked...I have posted the scriptures backing up what I did and I honestly don't understand why that is rejected? :confused It's in the bible, its there. The word rebuke is in the bible many many times and I don't understand why people aren't seeing it or think, I guess, that only applies to those times and not now. :(

God bless
Julie

Hi everyone!
I just wanted to pop in and let you all know that my silence isn't for any reason other than that I'm busy keeping up with a 2 and 3 year old right now. Mosey is in the hospital working on delivering grandbaby #3 for me... so I'm doing my part here with the other two. :saint:

Please pray for mosey.
Thanks.
kayte :hug:

However, I disagree that perhaps it would be better to discuss this in another thread, as in actual fact we are discussing the very topuc that was brought up -- spiritual warfare, and exactly what that is.
With great hesitancy here I am going to respond to this post. I think it is important for these things to be addressed and if necessary the thread can be cleaned up later.



I also disagree with your statement that evil demons should instead be called evil desires. A demon is not a desire, and a desire is not a demon.
I agree that a demon is not an evil desire, but demons feed evil desires and evil desires feed demons. They are interconnected.



The Bible speaks of 3 different things -- the world, the devil and his demons, and the flesh. All 3 can entice us to sin and therefore keep us from a right relationship with God if we do give into the temptation.
I agree.



I understand that many Christians find this subject troubling, and would either not talk about it or even outright deny that there are supernatural evil beings that inhabit the spirit world and try to bother us. But the Bible makes it abundantly clear that this is true.
I agree.



If you feel that my stating that I know that I am battling demons borders on the occult, well, you are entitled to your opinion. But as I have stated in my testimony and elsewhere, I was once very involved in the occult, actively working and communicating with those very demons to gratify my fleshly desires. Now I wholeheartedly resist them and refuse to do their bidding anymore. This is not occultic, but extremely Biblical.
Towards the end of this post I have a quote from your testimony where you talk about how you "wanted the power". I still see this happening some karenmot. You want the POWER over these demons but everything that I have read from scripture is that they are defeated by weakness. Please do a search in the NT on the word weakness and find out how truly powerful weakness is. I know that this sounds like a contradiction but it is the truth.



I also feel that it is extremely unhelpful to tell a new and struggling Christian who is being tormented by demons that the reason for the torment is because they are battling their own evil desires.
Here is where I disagree some. They can be battling their own fleshly desires or they can be battling demons and their own fleshly desires. If they are battling demons they will win the battle by subduing their own fleshly desires and ignoring the demons. This is what I see scripture teaching us.



We do them a real favor when we explain that in fact they are not battling with themself, but with a supernatural being that they have the authority to defeat in the name of Jesus and by the power of His shed blood.
I also disagree here some, because in fact they are either battling only themselves or themselves and demons. And yes these demons can be defeated by not feeding them with our fleshly desires. This is what I see scripture teaching us. Let's look at what you wrote in your testimony.



When I was in the 9th grade I bought a copy of the Satanic Bible. Not that I was interested in worshipping the devil, because I wasn't, but I wanted the power that could come from reading that book.
Can you see how your fleshly desires feed the demons? You are still looking at this as a power thing, but it is by weakness we win. Again I am asking you to do a search in the NT on the word weakness.

Can you see how your fleshly desires feed the demons? You are still looking at this as a power thing, but it is by weakness we win. Again I am asking you to do a search in the NT on the word weakness.
As I know that you did not mean this the way that it sounds, I will choose to not be insulted by your accusations.

You are overlooking one very important fact -- during the period of time that I am describing in my testimony, I was not a Christian. I was born again after all of those things happened. So you cannot draw any conclusions on what may motivate me now based on what I say motivated me then. I am a new creation, with an entirely different set of desires and motivations.


No, I am not feeding any desire for power, and I find it extremely inappropriate for you to attempt to psychoanalyze me by twisting my words around and using my past against me.

I would like to attempt to get this thread back on track and continue the discussion if anyone is still interested.


My only request is that those of us participating would please refrain from stating that anyone else's doctrinal interpretations, opinions, and experiences are unbiblical.


There are many different ways of interpreting the Scriptures that have been cited, and I ask that we just agree to disagree and not accuse or belittle those who disagree with us. And I also ask that we please refrain from trying to analyze the hidden motivations of the others.


Please ladies let's feel free to state our viewpoints, in love, with respect for each others feelings.

Karenmot,

Thank you for posting that in such a loving way. One of the reasons that I had not finished posting my answers to the questions on the board, was because it was takin on a different tone. I personally did not feel comfortable posting what looked to me, as a raging battle over what people believe and doctrines. To me it just seemed the way this thread was going was not very Godly.

I realize that when we feel passionate about our beliefs in the word of God, and we are trying to get other christians to see where we are coming from that it can easily take on a fleshy motive rather than the will of God. We have to be careful that we are NOT posting in our flesh, and post as to how God wants his word to be heard. And also remember God created us all equal, He has given us special gifts, but one gift is not more special than another gift in God's eyes. He gives us these gifts to do his will.

I will wait a few days, to see how the posting on this thread goes, and see if it calms down before I will post again on it.

Remember, we are all Sister's and Brother's in Christ Jesus our Redeemer!!!:pp

Love ya All,:kiss:

Your sister in Christ,:hug:

Elizabeth

You are still looking at this as a power thing, but it is by weakness we win.
I was very wrong for making this statement as a statement of fact because I do not know it to be a fact and it was only my opinion. I sincerely apologize for that.

However I would like to say the following. We are discussing and analyzing scripture. If we bring experiences in to try to support something I think that those experiences should also be subject to analysis and discussion. If not then I would suggest all personal experiences be left out of the discussion.

Oh, and by the way, I still want to answer the study questions. I hope to be able to get to them sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Well some of you might have seen another post by me that I am having computer problems...this one I think is about to give out...:(

I tried to post a little while ago on here and it just kept trying to disconnect on me...so I got off and was going to reboot..everything froze up...then when it came back it put me in the 'safe mode' for some dumb reason. So I had to reboot again...and the sounds coming from the tower are not good! :(

And for the last three or four days I have just been swamped with other things going on so haven't even read the last two pages or just..just skimmed through them.

I have a new computer and my sister is coming up tomorrow to help me get it set up and transfer information from this one to the other one..and I hoping that doesn't go on and on! But who knows at this point when I will get back to this and get caught up. Just wanted to let you all know! sorry...:(

God bless
Julie

Spiritual/demonic oppression versus possession....
When you are a christian indwelled by the Holy Spirit you can not be possesed by a demon, BUT you can very much be oppressed by one.... what is the differance??
Possesion is where Satan takes possesion of you, and there is no longer place for the Holy Spirit.....
Oppression, any ~one, everyone of us can be oppressed by a demonic spirit.... anger, depression, alkholism, dispair..... those are all oppressions,
Belonging to G_d, Satan can only oppress you, he can not posess you.

I think the differance needs to be made clear.... there are other threads on this MB where the differances has been discussed b4..

In the interest of keeping in context in the Word of God, I pasted in the entire chapter, even tho I won't discuss the entire chapter I will high light in red, what I want to bring out for discussion.


2 Corinthians 10 GWT



1 I, Paul, make my appeal to you with the gentleness and kindness of Christ. I'm the one who is humble when I'm with you but forceful toward you when I'm not with you.

2 I beg you that when I am with you I won't have to deal forcefully with you. I expect I will have to because some people think that we are only guided by human motives.

3 Of course we are human, but we don't fight like humans.



4 The weapons we use in our fight are not made by humans. Rather, they are powerful weapons from God. With them we destroy people's defenses, that is, their arguments

5 and all their intellectual arrogance that oppose the knowledge of God. We take every thought captive so that it is obedient to Christ.

6 We are ready to punish every act of disobedience when you have become completely obedient.



7 Look at the plain facts! If anyone is confident he belongs to Christ, he should take note that we also belong to Christ.

8 So, if I brag a little too much about the authority which the Lord gave us, I'm not ashamed. The Lord gave us this authority to help you, not to hurt you.

9 I don't want you to think that I'm trying to frighten you with my letters.



10 I know that someone is saying that my letters are powerful and strong, but that I'm a weakling and a terrible speaker. 11 The person who is saying those things should take note of this fact: When we are with you we will do the things that we wrote about in our letters when we weren't with you.

12 We wouldn't put ourselves in the same class with or compare ourselves to those who are bold enough to make their own recommendations. Certainly, when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves to themselves, they show how foolish they are.



13 How can we brag about things that no one can evaluate? Instead, we will only brag about what God has given us to do--coming to [the city of Corinth] where you live.

14 It's not as though we hadn't already been to Corinth. We're not overstating the facts. The fact is that we were the first to arrive in Corinth with the Good News about Christ.

15 How can we brag about things done by others that can't be evaluated? We have confidence that as your faith grows, you will think enough of us to give us the help we need to carry out our assignment--



16 spreading the Good News in the regions far beyond you. We won't brag about things already accomplished by someone else.

17 "Whoever brags should brag about what the Lord has done." 18 It isn't the person who makes his own recommendation who receives approval, but the person whom the Lord recommends.

I expect I will have to because some people think that we are only guided by human motives.
Karen and the rest of us who believe in spiritual warfare believe that we are not guided by human motives, such as pride or being power hungry.
3 Of course we are human, but we don't fight like humans.
We fight WITH prayer, With the authority God gave us to use.


4 The weapons we use in our fight are not made by humans. Rather, they are powerful weapons from God. With them we destroy people's defenses, that is, their arguments

5 and all their intellectual arrogance that oppose the knowledge of God. We take every thought captive so that it is obedient to Christ.
Now there are several different versions and they all say this a bit differently, and we could argue for eternity over the differences. Here it is in the HCSB...4 since the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. We demolish arguments 5 and every high-minded thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
the weapons of our warfare are not of us, but mighty (powerful) thru GOD for the pulling down or demolition of strongholds.
Main Entry: strong·hold http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?strong08.wav=stronghold'))
Pronunciation: 'stro[ng]-"hOld
Function: noun
1 : a fortified place
2 a : a place of security or survival <one of the last strongholds of the ancient Gaelic language -- George Holmes> b : a place dominated by a particular group or marked by a particular characteristic
we who practice spiritual warfare often refer to demonic 'infestation' or oppression as strongholds.

6 We are ready to punish every act of disobedience when you have become completely obedient. didn't mean to highlight this...



7 Look at the plain facts! If anyone is confident he belongs to Christ, he should take note that we also belong to Christ.

8 So, if I brag a little too much about the authority which the Lord gave us, I'm not ashamed. The Lord gave us this authority to help you, not to hurt you.
We are not ashamed of the authority that God gave us...the Lord gave it to us...

9 I don't want you to think that I'm trying to frighten you with my letters.



10 I know that someone is saying that my letters are powerful and strong, but that I'm a weakling and a terrible speaker. 11 The person who is saying those things should take note of this fact: When we are with you we will do the things that we wrote about in our letters when we weren't with you.

12 We wouldn't put ourselves in the same class with or compare ourselves to those who are bold enough to make their own recommendations. Certainly, when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves to themselves, they show how foolish they are.

I will try and answer the study questions and share what I have learned.


Study questions
#
1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

I was once held in slavery to unrighteousness. That was before I knew Christ. Scripture tells us there is none righteousness, no not one. But, when we come to Christ, He becomes our righteousness. For in Christ we are declared righteous.

(Romans 3:10 ) As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;


(Romans 3:21 ) But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 ) even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all *and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

(Romans 4:5 ) But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,


2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

I used to live in fear of satan but not any more. I have placed my entire life into the hand of God. I trust God and I know nothing can come into my life without His knowledge or permission. And whatever comes He has a purpose for it and He will work everything for my good and for His glory.

Now I am not saying s#tan doesn't bother me anymore for he does at times. But I am confident in the Lord and keep my faith and trust in God. These are a few verses that helped me to realize that when I had fear it was not from God but from our adversary. I think that is our greatest battle, that of the mind, and that is where our enemy attacks us the most.

(2 Timothy 1:7 ) For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.



(Romans 8:15 ) For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

This is one of my favorite verses, 1 John 4:4. We have the very Spirit of God dwelling within us. Jesus defeated our enemy for us. Having Christ, being in Christ, we are more than conquerors and the evil one cannot touch us or hold us in bondage any more.


(1 John 4:4 ) You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.







3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

Scripture tells us to be steadfast in our faith and to be strong in the might of our Lord Jesus.

And by the renewing of our minds. How we do that is to memorize the word of God. When our adversary comes to attack us, we do as Jesus did in Matthew 4:1-11. When s#tan comes to condemn us or bring fear or tempt us we can refute him with the word of God. We can tell him to get behind us as Jesus did. By resisting s#tan and refuting his lies he will flee from us.

(1 Peter 5:9 ) Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

(Ephesians 6:10 ) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.


(Romans 12:2 ) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.


(Ephesians 4:22 ) that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,

23 ) and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24 ) and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.


(2 Corinthians 10:3 ) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

4 ) For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,


5 ) casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,





4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?


The Lord Jesus protects us. I love these verses.

(John 10:27 ) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

28 ) And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

29 ) My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of My Father's hand.


(Colossians 3:3) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.





5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

These verses have encouraged me when I was down and things were not going well and I have shared them with friends who were going through difficult times.

(1 Peter 5:6 ) Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,

7 ) casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

8 ) Be sober, be vigilant; *because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

9 ) Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

10 ) But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle [you].

11 ) To Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.




(1 Peter 1:6 ) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,

7 ) that the genuineness of your faith, [being] much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

8 ) whom having not *seen you love. Though now you do not see [Him], yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 ) receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of [your] souls.




(Philippians 4:6 ) Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;

7 ) and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.






6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

There have been a few times that I have been in prayer and felt led to pray for the binding of s#tan from someone. A dear friend and I had been praying for her dad who was an alcoholic. We both felt led to pray for the binding of s#tan from her dad. Well, a week later she received a call from her dad telling her that her mom had left him. We were both in shock. Then a week later her dad was saved and quit drinking. About a month later they got back together. When they came to visit my friend (they lived in another state) I met her dad and the whole time they were there my friend was so amazed at the change in him. That was so wonderful. We followed these verses and that is what happened. But it was all the work of the Lord. He is so awesome.


(Matthew 16:19 ) And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth *will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

(Matthew 18:18 ) "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 ) "Again* I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

20 ) For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."






7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

The Holy Spirit does direct us on how to pray and when to pray and who to pray for. All we have to do is allow Him to help us and lead us.

(Romans 8:26 ) Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession *for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 ) Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit [is], because He makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

(Ephesians 6:18 ) praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--


Be blessed
in Christ's love,
Debra

P.P.P., yes, I agree with what you said..

1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

I wouldn't say I am sold into slavery to unrighteousness. But I do have a problem with being impatience. Patience is not one of my best qualities. Pray and be more patient.



2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

No I don't live in fear of Satan. I couldn't actually say these verses have just now made me more confident in the Lord, but scripture is what gave me confidence in the Lord.



3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

By submitting to God.



4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

That Jesus is our protection.



5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

Yes I think I have given unwise counsel before. The Lord is working on me to be able to comfort better those who suffer.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1 Corinthians 12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Acts 5:41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.



6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

Binding Satan is not our job.



7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

This is a strange question. You ask what prayer is actually most powerful and the first choice is not a prayer.

My answers to the study questions:


1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

Of course. I am human, and all humans have areas with which they struggle. What do I need to do to be free? Seek God, and draw closer to Him. In doing so I will be more intune to His voice, and He will be faithful to lead me on His chosen path of healing and deliverance.



2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

No, I have no fear of what Satan can do to me.




3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

There are many ways that we can resist -- it depends on exactly what the satan is trying to do. If he is whispering something in our spiritual ear, trying to plant an idea in our heads, we can recognize it as coming from him and refuse to listen, and command him to shut up in the name of Jesus (this is very effective). If we discern any type of spiritual oppression in either another person or our environment, we can rebuke the demons in the name of Jesus and by the power of His shed blood. It all depends on the situation and the type of attack -- but the solution is always the same -- exercising our authority in the name of Jesus.




4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

I think this passage shows a lot more than simply that "Jesus places himself between Peter and satan" -- it Jesus clearly shows that He has all authority over all the power of the enemy.




5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

Yes, of course I have. We all have. But not in the context that is implied here. I do not now have a better understanding of how to counsel people based on this study.





6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

This is a loaded question, worded to show a particular doctrinal interpretation. Any power and authority exercised is not our own but what is clearly given to us as believers as explained in Scripture. No, we are not working against God and being disobedient to His plan -- on the contrary, we are following His plan and instruction as given in the full counsel of Scripture.




7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I agree completely with Christinme -- the first option listed is not a prayer. Doing both of these things suggested are equaly powerful in specific situations -- there are times that we need to battle the powers of darkness, and other times that we can pray a prayer as like in option #2 if that is what is called for. Discernment tells us which is needed in any situation.

I have to admit I didn't do the study questions before, because frankly, I didn't understand them...many questions seem unrelated to the topic to me.

1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

Now I don't understand this question...are you talking about sin? We all sin...what does this have to do with spiritual warfare? I guess I am missing a point here?

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

No.

3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

Like Jesus and others in the bible have...to tell satan to be gone. When Jesus was tempted in the desert, at the third temptation He told satan ...Away with you! Micheal, the archangle told satan to leave when they were arguring over Moses body..."The Lord rebukes you." His is the best example as he did not do this IN his name or by his authority alone...no...he did it in the name of Jesus.


4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

I guess you could look at it that way, but actually Jesus told Peter that satan wanted to shift him like wheat and He prayed Peter would not lose faith. He didn't stop satan from messing with Peter at all, actually. not sure what you are getting at here. sorry.



5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

Its hard to know what to say to someone like when a loved one has died, or someone is suddenly very ill or something like that. I am sure I don't do the best job at it, as most people struggle with saying the right things. What does this have to do with prayer or spiritual warfare though...you lost me...

6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

I am still studying the binding stuff myself...rebuking works well for me and no the 'power' doesn't come from me at all...it come from God..otherwise it sure wouldn't work, would it?


7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

:confused What's wrong with just talking to God..this one totally lost me..sorry. :(

See this is why I didn't do the questions before...I guess I am missing something, cause I don't get it at all.

God bless
Julie

I will answer the study questions, tho I think that they are slanted in one particular way, to elicit certain responses:


1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?

I am flesh and blood, I struggle with sin, as does the rest of the body of Christ, but I would not say that I have sold myself into slavery. As I grow in Christ, I am quicker at recognizing my sins and repenting of them. Sometimes it is difficult to change habits, but that does not mean I have 'sold myself to sin.'

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

Absolutely not.




3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?

Main Entry: 1re·sist http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?resist01.wav=resist'))
Pronunciation: ri-'zist
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French resister, from Latin resistere, from re- + sistere to take a stand; akin to Latin stare to stand -- more at STAND (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=stand)
intransitive senses : to exert force in opposition
transitive senses
1 : to exert oneself so as to counteract or defeat
2 : to withstand the force or effect of

I exert the authority Christ gave me, to counter what Satan is doing.


4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

It tells me that Jesus has always been and will always be willing to be a "buffer" between me and the evil one.




5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

I do not understand what this has to do with this particular study, all I see, (and I may be wrong, because we have definate doctrinal differences) is that the entire point of this study is to prove one doctrine is absoulte truth and the other is heretical.




6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?

The whole point I, and others are trying to make is that we do not do this under our own power and authority. We do it thru God's mightiness to pull down strongholds.




7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

I too would have to say that this question did not make sense to me.

I am going to put forth some of my thoughts and I would appreciate correction on anything that someone believes is wrong.

1) I think all of us believe in demons.

2) I think all of us believe that demons can be cast out and in the end it is in fact God who does the casting out.

3) I think all of us believe that our flesh can give opportunities for demons to plague us.

4) I think also that we all believe that there can be situations, if one is a child or an unbeliever or not strong in the Lord, where demons from others and the resulting abuse to one can cause the victim to then be plagued by demons.

5) I think we disagree on what is "Spiritual Warfare".

6) I think but I'm not really sure about this one, that we disagree on whether someone stong in the Lord can be plagued by demons. Now on this one I think it is possible, because I look at Paul and the thorn which plagued him (2 Corinthians 12:7-10).

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

My Answers to your Study Questions Kayte,

1) I already answered question one in a previous post to your thread.

2) Do you live in Fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?

After being delivered yes, I lived in fear for a while, for about three weeks, until I fully submitted my life to Jesus. For I knew that Jesus would help and to protect me as long as I stayed faithful and kept seeking his will. No harm would be done to me.

3) In James 4:7 we are told, submit to God, Resist the devil and he will flee from you. " How are we to resist? "

This is kind of a hard question to answer, because there is several ways that we are to resist the devil. By Rebuking, by prayer, by fasting, by scriptures, I have learned Satan does not attack in just one particular way, he will attack in every way possible. He wants to remove the Joy you have of God.

I will give you two examples of how I have had to Resist the Devil in just the past two weeks. One was just a few days ago, I had been counseling a friend with a pretty tough situation over the internet, who's going through a divorce. Anyways, I was doing some shopping a few days ago, and could not get my mind off of him, I could not wait till the next time I would talk to him, I had no idea that I was even starting to feel this way until it just popped in my head, that I really liked him. As I finished my shopping and I was walking out to my van, I stopped, I didn't care if anyone heard me, I knew what exactly what this was all about. I started to laugh a little bit, and I said, Oh No, you don't Satan, You will not get me on this one, I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS!!!! It worked, by the power of Jesus inside of me I put on the Armour of God, and I resisted the Devil. I have had no feelings or thoughts about this friend since then , and still continue to communicate with him. It was Satan, as God says he is the father of LIES!!!! It was Satan that put that thought in my head, it was not my thought, If I had failed to resist the Devil.... And believed that I was actually feeling that way, then I would have allowed satan to continue to try to bring me down. But instead the Holy Spirit Stomped on satan, and he is under my feet!!!!

The other instance within the last couple of weeks, was where I just felt like my prayers were not going in higher than the ceiling, that they were just stopping right there and then. For the first two days during my prayer time, I had to stop, I wasn't feeling like I was being heard. But the third day, and after seeking scripture. I started out praying and felt this block again, So I continued to pray and I said, God I know you can hear my prayers, I know you are listening, I am going to perservere with this prayer, I am going to have faith that the Holy Spirit is going to break through this barrier. I will continue to pray until I can no longer feel this barrier, I don't care how long it will take, but I will not allow satan to get me at prayer time. I prayed for probably another three minutes just continuing to pray for my family, friends, the board members, and finally I felt a break through and started to praise the Lord, I thanked the Holy Spirit for giving me the strength to overcome satan, I was just so happy that the Holy Spirit was not going to allow me to give up. He was with me the whole way through. satan again is under my feet!!!!!!

4) When Jesus places himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?

This clearly tells me that we are never alone battling the evil's of satan. Jesus, the Holy Spirit is always there. He is our protector, He is where we get our strength from. We are absolutely nothing, I will say it again, we are nothing, without Jesus.

5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.

Oh, I am sure that I have given unwise counsel... I can't think of an instance right at the moment, but I am not perfect, and I certainly do not have all the answers, I know that I don't want all the answers for I want to keep learning and being on fire for God Almighty!

The three scriptures on how to comfort one that is suffering?

I am sorry Kayte, I am really not sure how you mean by this question. Do you mean suffering from Satan's attacks? or suffering from sickness? I just am not sure how to take this question. If you could tell me how you mean this question, and how this question has to do with fighting the enemy, I could answer this question better.

6) Binding satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. yet if we consider that nothing come to us but through God's loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to his plan?

Okay, I myself never feel powerful when it comes to defeating the enemy. It is not my power that is defeating but who lives in and through me. Jesus Christ my Saviour!!!

I do believe that God can and does allow his children to go through trials and tribulations. And why do you think God allows this for his children??? I believe he allows it, to see if we give into Satan's temptations or will we lean on him and take refuge in troubled times? We will lean on the Holy Spirit for his strength? Or will we try to take matters into our own hands? The faithful will draw strength from the Holy Spirit, and ask the Holy Spirit to help them through this tough time. When the Holy Spirit works through us to bind satan, that can't be working against God! For God is in Jesus, and Jesus is in God, and the Holy Spirit is in us. So I guess again, I am not sure what you are wanting in this question.

I will give you an example of how the Holy Spirit works when troubled times are upon God's children. My neighbor on the fourth of July weekend holiday, was going through a very troubled time. Her sister who was at college, was only 19 years old, died suddenly of Heart Failure. She was a child of God. Brandi who lives with her mother next door, came and told Ed and I the news, it had been just over 24 hours since she had lost her sister. Hearing her talk about her sister's death, was truely amazing how strong she was. How she had centered Jesus in this time of trouble. How she was letting the Holy Spirit guide her and how she was drawing strength from Jesus. To a stranger she might have appeared that she wasn't that close to her sister, or that she didn't have feelings about her dying. But I knew and I could feel the Holy Spirit in her, and I knew that she loved her sister very dearly. She had her time of grieving for her sister, and the Holy Spirit told her that he would give her the strength to help the other family members. She knew that she had to help her mother. Her mother was saved, but she started blaming God for taking her child too soon, Brandi knew that this was Satan's tactic to try to bring everyone against God! Brandi, rebuked the evil spirit of decieving, and by the third day, the day of the funeral her mother cried out to the Lord for forgiveness. The Holy Spirit knew this ahead of time what would happen to this family, and he knew that Brandi would be obedient in letting the Holy Spirit guide her through this troubled time. So was Brandi going against God's plan and being disobediant to his word, by rebuking satan? I don't believe for one second that she went against God's wishes. She did what the Holy Spirit was leading her to do.

7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?

1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) may the God of all grace, who called us to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.Amen.

I feel that when you are praying in the Spirit and you are in The Lord's presence that it is the Holy Spirit guiding you, and it is the Holy Spirit that helps you pray, and when speaking in tongues it is the Holy Spirit praying for you. I myself can get quite surprised when the Holy Spirit leads me in prayer. Sometimes I rebuke satan or evil spirits, sometimes I pray for God's strength and his Mercy and Grace, and most of all I praise him with all my heart soul and my mind.

I have spent a lot of time with the Holy Spirit helping me answering these questions. I thank you Kayte for this study, for I have learned a lot and have leaned on not my own understanding but the Lord's understanding.:pray:

May the Lord bless you abundantly,:pp

Your sister in Christ,:hug:

Elizabeth

It occured to me that I hadn't gone through the study questions myself and thought maybe this would help clear up some of the confussion that's developed for some of you that have tried to answer them. :)

The thread has gotten progressively narrower and narrower.. like a microscope.. on just that I stated we aren't instructed to bind satan, so that everything else the study talked about was lost in the stampede. :lol:
Binding/rebuking was not the only intent and subject of the thread. :)
Study questions
#
1) Are there area’s in your life that you have sold yourself into slavery to unrighteousness? If so what do you need to do to be free?
At this point in my life, no. I deal with the common temptations, but am not in slavery at this point.
Some examples I can think of right now would be slavery to dispair. I would dispair over all kinds of things.. and my dispair would pull me away from trusting God or really seeking Him. I would worry about anything and everything.
The solution was to hunt out those things that tempted me and drew me away from the Lord. I examined the things I listened to like the news.. which I can tend to zero in on the news when there is a crisis or something awful happens to someone that breaks my heart. I would watch and watch to learn anything more of the situation. Instead of simply hearing about it, turning the tv off and taking it to prayer. Real prayer.. not just sharing my worries with God. :lol:
I learned to listen to myself think.. to be aware of when I was starting to worry and dispair over something, and would force myself to turn immediately to God, repent, and replace those thoughts with what is good, true, pure and lovely. (Being renewed in the mind.)

If someone has a problem with lustful thoughts, it's time to examine what we watch on tv, what kind of music we listen to, what kind of books we read.. do they feed you long for something (someone) more than we have? Someone different? Someone stronger, more romantic, more caring, etc? Are there any relationships we have that leave us open to impure thoughts (not just talking about s*x here)? And again.. examine how we are thinking. Are our thoughts consistant with pleasing God and staying in the Light, or do we have thought patterns that we feed on that aren't healthy to our relationship with the Lord?

If any of these things are a snare to us, bringing temptation.. Jesus said it's better to pluck out an eye. :eek: He directs us to 'flee'. Run away! Fast!
So the solution? Repentance and making a clean sweep of anything that pulls us away from God. No matter how painful. (Plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand is gonna hurt.. but better to enter heaven that way than to fall into slavery to sin.)

2) Do you live in fear of what Satan can do to you? After looking at these verses are you more confident in the Lord?
No. He is an extremely intelligent being. He is filled with extreme hate. He is the father of lies (and I know I'm not beyond being duped.) But greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world. I know his devices.. I am aware of the enemy of my soul... but Jesus is not lacking in power to keep me from the evil one. I need to walk in the ways of God, with my eyes on Him and He will not let me fall. I am confident in the Lord.

3) In James 4:7 we are told, “Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” How are we to resist?
By putting on the whole armor of God. I don't believe this is something we're to do over and over, but something we're to live daily. If my sight is set on my heavenly Father, He will establish my thoughts and make my path straight. Satan doesn't like the True light.. he will flee as we walk in it.

4) When Jesus places Himself between Peter and Satan, what does that tell us about Jesus?
It tells me He is All Powerful God. He alone can take this position because He alone is God.
Here's a joke I heard once. :saint:

A woman went shopping after her husband told her they really didn't have enough money for her to buy anything. Well.. she went into a dress shop and found a gorgeous red dress that would be just perfect for a party they were going to. She couldn't resist trying it on.. just to see how it looked. ;)
As she was admiring the cut of the dress and the way it fit her, she thought of what her husband had said and realized she was being tempted to disobey her husbands wishes. So she told satan "get behind me satan!"

Later that night.. she brought out the dress to show her husband and confess that she'd bought it. He asked her why she hadn't obeyed him and just left the store!? She said "Oh honey! I tried! I really did! I told satan to get behind me and everything!" He asked her "then WHAT HAPPENED???" She responded that "as soon as I told satan to get behind me, he whispered in my ear and told me how good it looked from back there too!" :lol: :rolleyes:

It's only a silly joke.. but there's a great deal of truth to it.

5) Have you ever, like Peter, given unwise counsel to someone that was suffering? Do you have a better understanding now of how to comfort one that is suffering? List three verses that give us direction in how to meet suffering.
Yes.. I have. I have hated it when someone I care about is going through a horrible thing. I can so relate to Peter here. I can become focused on the one I love and the suffering to the point that I am not mindful of the things of God.

I did not mean 'do you have a better understanding now that you have done this study. :rolleyes:
I meant... in your walking with God.. have you grown in this area? Do you have better understanding now that you can share with us compared to how you use to comfort others? This should be an area we've all grown in as we've walk with Him... and should be an area we can help each other in.. esspecially young believers.

Christinme shared some excellent verses for this:
Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1 Corinthians 12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Acts 5:41 So they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.

6) Binding Satan feels and sounds powerful. It gives a sense of control and strength. Yet if we consider that nothing comes to us but through God’s loving hand is there any real power in it? Are we actually working against God and being disobedient to His plan?
Refer this to the incident with Peter and Jesus. Peter was not being mindful of the things of God.. and Jesus' response certainly indicates that Peter was actually working against God in his thoughts. As I mentioned above, I've been guilty of this.. I have been disobedient to His plan by wanting to take care of the problem (or truely desiring I could whisk it away) for a hurting loved one (or myself even).

7) The power in prayer is to pray the love and the will of God. Knowing this, when we pray which prayer is actually most powerful?:
1) Binding evil spirits, or 2) May the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Having looked this question over.. I agree it was leading and in it's being leading, it over-rode the intent. Sorry. :blush:

The intent went along with question 6. When I learned to pray people through their suffering (or myself), knowing that God's plan may not be visible to me doesn't remove the fact that He does have a plan... I was able to line myself up with God in prayer and prayer became effective and usefilled and hopefilled.

An example... A dear friend of mine's husband became seriously ill. He caught a common virus which spiraled in a stead decline of his health. The doctors couldn't figure out for the life of them what was wrong with him. Their family went from living in a lovely cabin to living in a camper trailer on church property (where they wouldn't have to pay rent.)

Others around me were binding and rebuking various demons. I centered myself on God and began praying that this man would begin to grow in the Lord in all the ways we're to grow. (faith, knowledge, virtue, righteousness, kindness, love, etc.)

Today he is still ill.. far more ill than he was when this began. He is going blind, deaf, has to have a pace-maker because he has continuous heart attacks, extreme exhaustion, etc. (Through a series of event led by God, it was discovered that he has genetic disorders.) However.. he is so in love with God now and displays the grace and hope of God to others in a way he never did before. He and his wife are far closer than they were before. She actually enjoys having this man around now. :lol:

Was it my prayers that accomplished this? Of course not. :eek: But I was allowed by God to line up with Him.. sit in the kitchen and stir.. while God prepared a feast for this family.
======== ========== =============== ========
I hope this clears up some of the confusion and brings the study back to what it was actually intended to be.

I don't think there is a person here that disagrees that when we grow in the Lord and are walking in His ways, we are living victoriously over the enemy. When we pray for others to grow in the Lord, we are serving His purpose and plan. When we counsel others to repent and give them help in understanding and walking in the ways of the Lord, we are pleasing God.

Ephesians 5
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.
Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Everything else aside.. we agree on these things.. yes? :) :hug: