Here’s a question to ponder:

In many discussions about how to dress (especially for church) it has been said that women should dress “modestly” so as not to cause a brother to stumble. While I think I understand the general gist of that (and agree) I’m going to pretend I don’t for the sake of this discussion. Based on that:

What do you mean by “modest”? How much flesh is too much flesh to expose?

I think it would depend on what modesty was or is in the culture. Some think any skin is to much and others think it's okay to show some

I think it would depend on what modesty was or is in the culture. Some think any skin is to much and others think it's okay to show someOK... let's narrow the culture thing then. I'm a white man led by God to serve Him in a Hispanic church. Based on the Hispanic "secular" culture... any shirt a female wears with 65% of the breasts exposed... is MODEST.

Now, let's apply this to the fact that we're talking about GROWTH in Christ and what should be modest at church and not what is modest in ones culture. Church is church and a culture doesn't altar what God may say about modest dress. So lets discuss this with God in mind... not a person's culture in mind.

Well, from personal experience in my former church, if when you sit down and someone throws a blanket on you so as not to show your.......um........well....... you know, to everyone on the altar, that's a pretty good sign. I remember once there were these 2 sisters that once it was so blatantly obvious, that the choir director got off the alter and asked them please to sit in the back of the congregation.

I think culture does play some role in the definition but not entirely. We are in the world not of the world.

So, for the sake of this discussion, we are talking about non-Muslim cultures -- no burkas --->unless you actually think that is what is meant by modesty!

Well, from personal experience in my former church, if when you sit down and someone throws a blanket on you so as not to show your.......um........well....... you know, to everyone on the altar, that's a pretty good sign. I remember once there were these 2 sisters that once it was so blatantly obvious, that the choir director got off the alter and asked them please to sit in the back of the congregation.

I'm not sure I understand. If my ankles show, would that require a blanket be placed over me?

Oh yes we must cover women completely you know :D

I'm not sure I understand. If my ankles show, would that require a blanket be placed over me?

Come on Frecs. If it was the ankles I wouldn't have even mentioned it. Think higher up. In the pelvic area. Know what I'm saying. And this actually happened. Several times. God forbid they ever raised thier hands during worship.

Come on Frecs. If it was the ankles I wouldn't have even mentioned it. Think higher up. In the pelvic area. Know what I'm saying. And this actually happened. Several times. God forbid they ever raised thier hands during worship.

Okay, so hemline needs to be lower than my butt. How much lower?


(I know what you meant....I'm playing stupid for this thread....)

Oh yes we must cover women completely you know :D

How do you know you aren't about to marry an ugly woman?

Is a nun's habit sufficient or do you prefer burgas?

How do you know you aren't about to marry an ugly woman?

Is a nun's habit sufficient or do you prefer burgas?

Well if she was ugly definlty a burga :D:D

I think nice modest dress going to the kness would be enough for a women and a nice dress pants and shirt for a guy going to Church.

Is anyone going to post scripture on this?

Just seems like this is a bible question...

1 Timothy 2:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002)

That women adorn themselves
The apostle seems to refer here to different parts of the Grecian and Roman dress. The , stola, seems to have been originally very simple. It was a long piece of cloth, doubled in the middle, and sewed up on both sides, leaving room only for the arms; at the top, a piece was cut out, or a slit made, through which the head passed. It hung down to the feet, both before and behind, and was girded with the zona round the body, just under the breasts. It was sometimes made with, sometimes without, sleeves; and, that it might sit the better, it was gathered on each shoulder with a band or buckle. Some of the Greek women wore them open on each side, from the bottom up above the knee, so as to discover a part of the thigh. These were termed , showers (discoverers) of the thigh; but it was, in general, only young girls or immodest women who wore them thus.

Here is another bible commentary on this:
David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002)
b. That the women adorn themselves in modest apparel: This is how Christian women are supposed to dress, especially at their Christian meetings. What is modest apparel? The words propriety and moderation help explain.

i. Propriety asks, "Is it appropriate for the occasion? Is it over-dressed or under-dressed? Is it going to call inappropriate attention to myself?" Moderation asks, "Is it moderate? Is it just too much – or far too little?" Moderation looks for a middle ground.

ii. The braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing Paul mentions were adornments that went against the principles of propriety and moderation in that culture.

iii. How you dress reflects your heart. If a man dresses in a casual manner, it says something about his attitude. Likewise, if a woman dresses in an immodest manner, it says something about her heart.

c. The most important adornment is good works. If a woman is dressed in propriety and moderation, with good works, she is perfectly dressed. Good works make a woman more beautiful than good jewelry

I used these bible commentaries to give us an idea of the culture back then and why certain things like pearls in the hair were pointed out...what the comparison was to the way the worldly people dressed and what was expected of Christian women.

1 Peter 3

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

God bless

I think nice modest dress going to the kness would be enough for a women and a nice dress pants and shirt for a guy going to Church.

What constitutes "modest" dress? I mean, other than hemline to the knees, what makes it "modest"? Can I show cleavage? bare arms? are there colors or patterns that immodest? does it have to fit like a sackcloth bag?

Is anyone going to post scripture on this?

Just seems like this is a bible question...

1 Timothy 2:9-10 (New King James Version)

9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002)

That women adorn themselves
The apostle seems to refer here to different parts of the Grecian and Roman dress. The , stola, seems to have been originally very simple. It was a long piece of cloth, doubled in the middle, and sewed up on both sides, leaving room only for the arms; at the top, a piece was cut out, or a slit made, through which the head passed. It hung down to the feet, both before and behind, and was girded with the zona round the body, just under the breasts. It was sometimes made with, sometimes without, sleeves; and, that it might sit the better, it was gathered on each shoulder with a band or buckle. Some of the Greek women wore them open on each side, from the bottom up above the knee, so as to discover a part of the thigh. These were termed , showers (discoverers) of the thigh; but it was, in general, only young girls or immodest women who wore them thus.

Here is another bible commentary on this:
David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002)
b. That the women adorn themselves in modest apparel: This is how Christian women are supposed to dress, especially at their Christian meetings. What is modest apparel? The words propriety and moderation help explain.

i. Propriety asks, "Is it appropriate for the occasion? Is it over-dressed or under-dressed? Is it going to call inappropriate attention to myself?" Moderation asks, "Is it moderate? Is it just too much – or far too little?" Moderation looks for a middle ground.

ii. The braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing Paul mentions were adornments that went against the principles of propriety and moderation in that culture.

iii. How you dress reflects your heart. If a man dresses in a casual manner, it says something about his attitude. Likewise, if a woman dresses in an immodest manner, it says something about her heart.

c. The most important adornment is good works. If a woman is dressed in propriety and moderation, with good works, she is perfectly dressed. Good works make a woman more beautiful than good jewelry

I used these bible commentaries to give us an idea of the culture back then and why certain things like pearls in the hair were pointed out...what the comparison was to the way the worldly people dressed and what was expected of Christian women.

1 Peter 3

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

God bless

So, I shouldn't braid my hair? What is considered appropriate for church? or a church function? How do I know this if I've never been to church before?

What constitutes "modest" dress? I mean, other than hemline to the knees, what makes it "modest"? Can I show cleavage? bare arms? are there colors or patterns that immodest? does it have to fit like a sackcloth bag?

For me it would be June Cleaver type dress from the good old days. I wouldn't even mind cleavage, I think that the young teens and older young people today skirts are way to short and the boys don't care either wearing pants down by their hips and showing their undies.

I think modesty is simple.For me anyway.In my humble opinion as a woman I think at church and church functions the bosom should be covered,no breast showing.I think either pants or a skirt that reaches the knees should be worn.Clothes should not be see through or tight.Hair should be clean and combed,make up light.Jewelry,only minimal.I say this is my opinion,because I refuse to judge another person.They may not know anything about the bible,it may be their first time in church,or,they may be misguided and think that it is ok to dress that way.I believe that as we grow in the LORD he puts it on our hearts how we should present ourselves,and we are all different.Good question though,it made me think!

This is a hot topic in the work place as well. If I were to endeavor to set a standard I would include several measures. Show little or no cleavage. Wear nothing that is skin tight which applies to men as well as women. Skirts or dresses should cover the knee and ideally will cover the knee when seated. The real problems in this area is that almost nothing on the store shelves comes even close to these measurements. Moderation is ideal. Not too tight but not too baggy either. Nothing is going to suit everybody and some will never be happy.

Do the best you can as unto the Lord. If in your mind you question the fitness of your clothing it may well be the Holy Spirit leading you to another selection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hello,

Yes, I agree, modesty is important. My oldest girl Natasha and I are fighting sometimes for simply over clothes. Natasha is 12. At the age the girls want to dress different. They are interested in changing bodies. They want attention to the boys. MTV they see to look sexy. They are noticed by the sexy dress. However, this is not the appropriate way to dress. In particular, in public! In the room of the house, that is okay. Not at school, with friends of any central mall and at church, no.

The lower skirt is modest. Do not show under clothes. Hide bra under the blouse. Why to boys appear sexy? What is the purpose of school? To study. No fashion. At the church, worship. We do not have to look like sex. I am a simple women. I wear veil over my hair as a cover. My husband, a Muslim, this is the right, he believes. Also, I feel it is correct. Always, of course, sometimes we do not have to hide but in the public. Hide the chest. Do not show genital area. Dress right for what the situation. For example, in a swimsuit at the beach is good. You can not wear to school a bathing suit.

Culture yes, some of the issues. Other than what is reasonable in the United States is not always better. No hijab at most places it was necessary. Girls need to show respect for the church to God. Good, clean girls make good worship for Jesus. Nice girls. Wash. Good skirts at knee and button shirt. Do not distract the boys.

Only the eyes should be uncovered ;)


Here’s a question to ponder:

In many discussions about how to dress (especially for church) it has been said that women should dress “modestly” so as not to cause a brother to stumble. While I think I understand the general gist of that (and agree) I’m going to pretend I don’t for the sake of this discussion. Based on that:

What do you mean by “modest”? How much flesh is too much flesh to expose?

A woman knows in her heart why she dressed for church as she did. A woman knows if her cleavage is showing or her skirt is really short that it's not the Lord's attention she is trying to get.

We could learn from the Amish. The Amish women have it about right.

all the best...

A woman knows in her heart why she dressed for church as she did. A woman knows if her cleavage is showing or her skirt is really short that it's not the Lord's attention she is trying to get.

AMEN...worthy or reps!

What about modest dress for men? Guys, have you ever gone for a run or mowed the grass with your shirt off? Ever stopped to wonder if you might be making a woman stumble?

Something to think about.

What about modest dress for men? Guys, have you ever gone for a run or mowed the grass with your shirt off? Ever stopped to wonder if you might be making a woman stumble?

Something to think about.My back is carpeted and it gets thicker as I age... seems that hair moves from the top of my head to my back. I don't understand why. Anyway... women may stumble trying to running away.

I actually find this to be quite an interesting topic, since I was, for a period of 7 years or so, a non-traditional student at a small, private, liberal arts Christian institution of higher learning where the president quite regularly gave speeches during chapel about modesty in dress, especially for women. The reason that it is such a bigger issue for guys than it is for girls is that men's brains are wired to process the world in a much more visual way than women's are. Satan knows this, which is why he targets things like pornography and seductive clothing towards men, who are much more likely to be caused to stumble by such things. I know first-hand, not just because I'm a guy, but because, up until about 5 years ago or so, I was addicted to internet porn. Then, the January of the year I was to married (my wife and I got married in September of 2006), a guy friend at our church who was aware of my struggles prayed for me to be released from that bondage, and the Lord set me free. Are there times where I still am tempted to go places online that I should not go, or look at an attractive young woman who happens to be wearing a low-cut or tight top and think about what she might look like naked? Unfortunately, the answer to that question is yes, because I am still human, and we live in a hyper-sexualized culture.

As far as the original question goes, it's all about the condition of your heart. If you desire to dress in a way that honors and glorifies the Lord, then He will direct you to dress in a way that is much less likely to cause members of the opposite gender to stumble by lusting after you. On the other hand, if you are trying to get the attention and approval of the opposite gender, and don't care as much what God thinks about how you dress, then you will more likely dress in more immodest styles. Just my two cents on the topic.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

A woman knows in her heart why she dressed for church as she did. A woman knows if her cleavage is showing or her skirt is really short that it's not the Lord's attention she is trying to get.

Amen I completely agree. I don't believe women don't know what it is to dress in a modest and decent manner.

Jeanne

AMEN...worthy or reps!Amen to your Amen. Karen nailed it.

We know that scripture is complete:



[16]*All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17]*that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
If scripture says:



[9]*likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10]*but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. then that's what we need to know. What's modest in some cultures, is not in others. Certain climates require different dress than others. What's modest for young girls may not be for teenaged girls, young adult women or elderly women.

What God writes to each of our hearts, however is never vague. The wisdom of this scripture is that is leaves the specifics of what it means to be modest to the hearts of the individual woman.

I think modesty is simple.For me anyway.In my humble opinion as a woman I think at church and church functions the bosom should be covered,no breast showing.I think either pants or a skirt that reaches the knees should be worn.Clothes should not be see through or tight.Hair should be clean and combed,make up light.Jewelry,only minimal.I say this is my opinion,because I refuse to judge another person.They may not know anything about the bible,it may be their first time in church,or,they may be misguided and think that it is ok to dress that way.I believe that as we grow in the LORD he puts it on our hearts how we should present ourselves,and we are all different.Good question though,it made me think!

Very very well stated, my sister!

(Glad you liked the question. I think we tend to assume everyone knows what we are talking about and it isn't always the case!)

This is a hot topic in the work place as well. If I were to endeavor to set a standard I would include several measures. Show little or no cleavage. Wear nothing that is skin tight which applies to men as well as women. Skirts or dresses should cover the knee and ideally will cover the knee when seated. The real problems in this area is that almost nothing on the store shelves comes even close to these measurements. Moderation is ideal. Not too tight but not too baggy either. Nothing is going to suit everybody and some will never be happy.

Do the best you can as unto the Lord. If in your mind you question the fitness of your clothing it may well be the Holy Spirit leading you to another selection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good, simple instructions. :)

Hello,

Yes, I agree, modesty is important. My oldest girl Natasha and I are fighting sometimes for simply over clothes. Natasha is 12. At the age the girls want to dress different. They are interested in changing bodies. They want attention to the boys. MTV they see to look sexy. They are noticed by the sexy dress. However, this is not the appropriate way to dress. In particular, in public! In the room of the house, that is okay. Not at school, with friends of any central mall and at church, no.

The lower skirt is modest. Do not show under clothes. Hide bra under the blouse. Why to boys appear sexy? What is the purpose of school? To study. No fashion. At the church, worship. We do not have to look like sex. I am a simple women. I wear veil over my hair as a cover. My husband, a Muslim, this is the right, he believes. Also, I feel it is correct. Always, of course, sometimes we do not have to hide but in the public. Hide the chest. Do not show genital area. Dress right for what the situation. For example, in a swimsuit at the beach is good. You can not wear to school a bathing suit.

Culture yes, some of the issues. Other than what is reasonable in the United States is not always better. No hijab at most places it was necessary. Girls need to show respect for the church to God. Good, clean girls make good worship for Jesus. Nice girls. Wash. Good skirts at knee and button shirt. Do not distract the boys.

Glad to meet you, Sonyasayshello! Thank you so much for contributing -- and very wise words indeed!

I think our teens and young adults are seeing MTV and "Next Top Model" and in magazines that they should show a lot of flesh and curves. This is hard to resist for young ladies wanting to be acceptable and appealling to guys. It is very hard for young girls who are watching their bodies develop curves and they are experiencing a lot of different emotions. It an important age for us older ladies to try to encourage them to find their value in their talents and personality and not all based on how they look.

I'm glad you mentioned ungarments! I'm so surprised that apparently it is fashionable to have exposed bra straps! And, blouses of thin fabric that doesn't even hide what is underneath! :eek: Modesty would certainly require us to not show our undergarments! Sure, guys know we wear them but only our husbands need to see them!

The haircovering is something that I've considered a number of times. I know in Muslim cultures they are required whenever you are in public. There are some fundamentalist Christian groups in the USA who also require women to cover their hair/head in public.

Do not distract the boys. I agree. :) But, boys are easily distracted, aren't they? ;)

A woman knows in her heart why she dressed for church as she did. A woman knows if her cleavage is showing or her skirt is really short that it's not the Lord's attention she is trying to get.

Do you think that is true of even our teens and young adults? And, if they do, do you think they consider that it is wrong to dress to attract the guys?

We could learn from the Amish. The Amish women have it about right.

all the best...

There are Fundamentalist Christian groups who's female adherants dress similarly to the Old Order Amish. They call it "Simple Clothing" except they do allow buttons and zippers and the headcoverings are more variable.

Old Order Amish women have two dresses and seven aprons. They wear the "prayer bonnet" not to look modest but because scripture says to pray continuous and it says that when women pray, their head should be covered. Thus, to follow both scriptures requires wearing the bonnet all the time. The dress of OO Amish women do not have buttons. They use straight pins (back in the day buttons were "prideful" -- interestingly, the men can and do use buttons on their shirts but the women do not) and they make sure the pin tips point inward so if they hold a baby they are pricked not the baby.

Do you think that is true of even our teens and young adults? And, if they do, do you think they consider that it is wrong to dress to attract the guys?

If I may give my opinion.
I don't think a lot of young teens or young women realize how dangerous it is to dress provocatively. That's why it is the responsibility of the older women to teach them this.
I think this would be an excellent class for young woman to be able to take in Sunday school.

Jeanne

If I may give my opinion.
I don't think a lot of young teens or young women realize how dangerous it is to dress provocatively. That's why it is the responsibility of the older women to teach them this.
I think this would be an excellent class for young woman to be able to take in Sunday school.

Jeanne

First, of course you are welcome to give your opinion!
Second, I agree, I don't think our young girls know they should not dress the way they see on MTV or in magazines. Unless we teach them, how are they to know?

My back is carpeted and it gets thicker as I age... seems that hair moves from the top of my head to my back. I don't understand why. Anyway... women may stumble trying to running away.

And I'm 100 pounds overweight. What's your point?

My point is that not only men struggle with lust. We women often tend to get overlooked. I don't even have to turn my head to see hot college guys jogging down the street. Are we running around telling them to put their darn shirts on??

And I'm 100 pounds overweight. What's your point?

My point is that not only men struggle with lust. We women often tend to get overlooked. I don't even have to turn my head to see hot college guys jogging down the street. Are we running around telling them to put their darn shirts on??

True. Though...give me a gentleman in dress uniform....be still my heart...

Do you think that is true of even our teens and young adults? And, if they do, do you think they consider that it is wrong to dress to attract the guys?
I was a Sunday school teacher for teens.
here is my answer to your question:
"A woman/teen knows in her heart why she dressed for church as she did. A woman/teen knows if her cleavage is showing or her skirt is really short that it's not the Lord's attention she is trying to get."

If a young teen "Christian" woman has to show her bosom or anything else to attrack a guy in church,and a parent allows them to leave the house looking in such an ungodly way, shame on the parents.

When you dress in a certain way that a teen thinks they are trying to get the attention of a young man, may not realize they may also be getting the attention of an older man who may be struggling with porn or some other sexual sin. Or..this teen may be attracting the attention of a young boy whose mother has protected him from having to be exposed to "breasts" or other parts until now.
There is no excuse for dressing sensual in church...none.

If a young teen "Christian" woman has to show her bosom or anything else to attrack a guy in church,and a parent allows them to leave the house looking in such an ungodly way, shame on the parents.

When you dress in a certain way that a teen thinks they are trying to get the attention of a young man, may not realize they may also be getting the attention of an older man who may be struggling with porn or some other sexual sin. Or..this teen may be attracting the attention of a young boy whose mother has protected him from having to be exposed to "breasts" or other parts until now.
There is no excuse for dressing sensual in church...none.

If the only source of "fashion" advise the girls get is MTV and Cosmo, how are they to know otherwise?
If the only "Christian" advise they get is "dress modest" but that is not defined, how are they supposed to figure it out?
If they think their only two options are "MTV" or "Amish", most will choose "MTV".

I think we older ladies need to teach them. We need to teach by example but we also need to teach more overtly--talking to them, explaining the whys, hows, and where-fors.

A music pastor I know and love used to give this advise to adult women in the choir: do the "praise test" in front of a full length mirror before leaving the house. If such instruction needs to be given (often) to adult ladies, how much more do young ladies need that? Know what I mean?

I hear you. I also taught a ladies Bible study and the topic came up about women showing cleavage in church. Some of the women said that no one had the right to tell them how they should dress...(it's no wonder their daughters dress as they do.) I made it clear how I felt about it and suggested that everyone look in the mirror before they leave the home and ask themselves if it was pleasing to the Lord. A couple of weeks later, a woman from the study came to me and thanked me. She had never really thought about her cleavage showing and who might be attracted to her.
I do get the whole MTV thing and you are right, all we can do is show them by the way we dress. By the way, I love to dress up for church. I like to look pretty and look like a girl. I can accomplish that without showing what doesn't need to be seen. :)

Exactly! Even adult women don't always 'get it' when we talk about modesty. And, frankly, it can be challenging to find nice looking clothes that are also modest. It seems that "fashion" means "show as much skin as possible". It seems like there is no middle ground between "show it all" and "Amish/Simple"! :eek:

So, what it boils down to is given to us in Titus - that the older women are to teach the younger...to me it means much more than just how to keep our home and take care of a husband. Titus 2 also speaks of encouraging the young men by example - I assume it the older men's example by the use of the word likewise.

But....what about the non Christian? We cannot expect them to do or live the same things/way we do. It still involves teaching.

For the non-Christian, there biggest problem is making the choice for Christ. It is then that they should be discipled on the life we are expected to live. A church, part of the local body of Christ, has a responsibility to both witness, disciple, and shepherd; and that should come first from the leadership and spread out to the larger assembly.

For the non-Christian, there biggest problem is making the choice for Christ. It is then that they should be discipled on the life we are expected to live. A church, part of the local body of Christ, has a responsibility to both witness, disciple, and shepherd; and that should come first from the leadership and spread out to the larger assembly.

Amen!! !

Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, not the wearer.

Women are not responsible for my lust, regardless of what they wear. I, as a man, am responsible for my lust. I can choose to lust or I can choose to not lust, whether the woman is in a burkha or in a thong bikini. Men trying to pawn off their sin on a woman because of the way she dresses is a childish cop-out.

Let me give you an example. My wife and I were at the fitness club last night working out. We were walking on two treadmills, side by side, watching a movie on the big screen. We had no idea what the movie was about. Suddenly, the scene changed to a group of young guys in a strip club. Almost immediately there was a shot of a young woman, very well built, in a thong and nothing else. Full frontal topless shot. Instead of condemning the girl in the movie because of her sinful dress, I turned my head and looked at my wife, the only woman that I have that level of intimacy with. I hit the stop button on the treadmill and left the room to go find another treadmill. I did not lust for even a second. Yes, I saw the topless breasts. Yes, they looked just like all 22 year old plastic surgery enhanced 36D breasts look. But that woman isn't flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone. She is none of my business. She wasn't attractive to me at all. Why? Because sexual attraction is a matter of covenant and my heart and my head, not of some 20something jiggling her breasts in my face.

Same goes for church. If a young woman is dressed provocatively, if that tempts me, then the issue is in my heart, not in her cleavage.

Now, that being said, as has been previously stated, the older women need to teach the younger women. The issue really isn't modesty or lack thereof. The issue is personal self-worth and image, and the fact that you can prostitute yourself without ever getting paid if you are willing to accept attention and sexual arousal as payment. Modesty is both culturally and situationally evaluated. I can promise you, my wife, as a nurse, has seen thousands of male genitalia, and as she says, "If you've seen one, you've seen them all." Culture, context, and situational activity are all required in an evaluation of what is modest.

Each person must look first in their heart and mind. If I choose to do so, I can see a fully naked human female and not lust. It is a choice; perhaps a difficult choice, but no woman's cleavage or mini-skirt forces me to think anything unless I choose to think it.

We could learn from the Amish. The Amish women have it about right.

all the best...
I dunno. I hear that the Amish women do not shave their armpits or their legs. Perhaps they go just a mile or two too far. The men do not wear deoderent so stand up wind if possible.

We must be careful that our modesty does not make us proud.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We must be careful that our modesty does not make us proud.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Very true! Even the Amish struggle with that! Such things as how wide the cuff of the bonnet can be judged as "prideful". So, simply wearing very modest clothing does not totally avoid issues of pride! And, it could become a source of pride in itself -- "I am more modest than them." We need to be careful that our desire to please God does not turn into an foothold of sin in our lives.

Why is it that we always have to be "borderline" sinning? Why show a little cleavage? What is the point? Our breasts are to satisfy our husbands only. If we are single, we should keep ourselves pure and Holy and honor our bodies that have Jesus living inside of them. It seems that dressing immodestly is only to receive attention. I think the conviction in our hearts on the way we dress should define who we are in Jesus Christ. I know we all fail at this... but, I just feel that we are trying to justify what is wrong and right. Look at this way... you never lay your hand on a hot burning stove...you actually want to keep your hands as far as you can from it... you don't go up to it and say "I can get THIS close to burning my hand"....and I think that's how we should be with sin. Not even trying to cross the line a little.

Didn't that verse which talks about the women dressing modestly really mean dress that wasn't flashy, and exhorbitant -- that didn't draw unnecessary attention to oneself -- like "look at me. I'm rich. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

I don't think it had to do with dressing sexually provocatively.

Modesty is in the eye of the beholder, not the wearer.

Women are not responsible for my lust, regardless of what they wear. I, as a man, am responsible for my lust. I can choose to lust or I can choose to not lust, whether the woman is in a burkha or in a thong bikini. Men trying to pawn off their sin on a woman because of the way she dresses is a childish cop-out.

Let me give you an example. My wife and I were at the fitness club last night working out. We were walking on two treadmills, side by side, watching a movie on the big screen. We had no idea what the movie was about. Suddenly, the scene changed to a group of young guys in a strip club. Almost immediately there was a shot of a young woman, very well built, in a thong and nothing else. Full frontal topless shot. Instead of condemning the girl in the movie because of her sinful dress, I turned my head and looked at my wife, the only woman that I have that level of intimacy with. I hit the stop button on the treadmill and left the room to go find another treadmill. I did not lust for even a second. Yes, I saw the topless breasts. Yes, they looked just like all 22 year old plastic surgery enhanced 36D breasts look. But that woman isn't flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone. She is none of my business. She wasn't attractive to me at all. Why? Because sexual attraction is a matter of covenant and my heart and my head, not of some 20something jiggling her breasts in my face.

Same goes for church. If a young woman is dressed provocatively, if that tempts me, then the issue is in my heart, not in her cleavage.

Now, that being said, as has been previously stated, the older women need to teach the younger women. The issue really isn't modesty or lack thereof. The issue is personal self-worth and image, and the fact that you can prostitute yourself without ever getting paid if you are willing to accept attention and sexual arousal as payment. Modesty is both culturally and situationally evaluated. I can promise you, my wife, as a nurse, has seen thousands of male genitalia, and as she says, "If you've seen one, you've seen them all." Culture, context, and situational activity are all required in an evaluation of what is modest.

Each person must look first in their heart and mind. If I choose to do so, I can see a fully naked human female and not lust. It is a choice; perhaps a difficult choice, but no woman's cleavage or mini-skirt forces me to think anything unless I choose to think it.



WOW!!!! This is powerful stuff. KUDOS

I dunno. I hear that the Amish women do not shave their armpits or their legs.

If you're wearing clothes like that, why do you even need to?

Commonsense seems worthy of consideration. First, culture has nothing to do with it. Women have always been women and men have always been men made by God to be visual creatures. Further, culture does not define what sin is, but God does. So we can leave cultural standards out of both the equation and the answer.

Men are visually oriented and whether women agree or not, whether they like it or not is really quite beside the point and the fact. There is enough evidence in the Bible to support this claim. It is why Jesus said what He said concerning a man looking on a woman and not lusting or lusting and committing sin.

I dare say that if men dressed sometimes as women do in such a way that would expose as much of what they've got hidden, it would cause quite the stir, and yet our culture has allowed the woman to expose a tremendous amount without nary a comment. But, this has to do with the fact that men are visual creatures and we've allowed culture to define sin for us. But again, God defines sin and culture attempts to redefine or excuse it away.

So it behooves women then to ask themselves when they dress if they are going to entice men to sin. Are they revealing to men what men desire to see but must when seeing it somehow refrain from sinning?

What woman when slipping on a tight top and tight jeans doesn't realize that men are going to look at what they have put up for sale? Oh but wait you say, I'm not selling anything! Yes, you are selling something on the visual market and it is being bought and the price paid is greater than you know.

So the question of modesty then is not to be determined by culture but by God as He has done so for us. Women are to dress in such a way that they will not entice men to sin. If this is a difficult thing to grasp for some women, then you have allowed culture to strip away the commonsense that God expects from us.

Women need to stop considering this from their perspective but rather from God's perspective and from a man's perspective. And women know full well what a man's perspective is. I know this is so because I see women all the time dressing from the man's perspective!

Finally, if as a woman, any woman reading this, you have a difficult time determining what would be appropriately modest and would not cause a normal man to sin by lusting, then ask a man if what you're wearing causes his glance to become a second look that leads to a gaze and maybe more.

Commonsense seems worthy of consideration. First, culture has nothing to do with it. Women have always been women and men have always been men made by God to be visual creatures. Further, culture does not define what sin is, but God does. So we can leave cultural standards out of both the equation and the answer.

Men are visually oriented and whether women agree or not, whether they like it or not is really quite beside the point and the fact. There is enough evidence in the Bible to support this claim. It is why Jesus said what He said concerning a man looking on a woman and not lusting or lusting and committing sin.

I dare say that if men dressed sometimes as women do in such a way that would expose as much of what they've got hidden, it would cause quite the stir, and yet our culture has allowed the woman to expose a tremendous amount without nary a comment. But, this has to do with the fact that men are visual creatures and we've allowed culture to define sin for us. But again, God defines sin and culture attempts to redefine or excuse it away.

So it behooves women then to ask themselves when they dress if they are going to entice men to sin. Are they revealing to men what men desire to see but must when seeing it somehow refrain from sinning?

What woman when slipping on a tight top and tight jeans doesn't realize that men are going to look at what they have put up for sale? Oh but wait you say, I'm not selling anything! Yes, you are selling something on the visual market and it is being bought and the price paid is greater than you know.

So the question of modesty then is not to be determined by culture but by God as He has done so for us. Women are to dress in such a way that they will not entice men to sin. If this is a difficult thing to grasp for some women, then you have allowed culture to strip away the commonsense that God expects from us.

Women need to stop considering this from their perspective but rather from God's perspective and from a man's perspective. And women know full well what a man's perspective is. I know this is so because I see women all the time dressing from the man's perspective!

Finally, if as a woman, any woman reading this, you have a difficult time determining what would be appropriately modest and would not cause a normal man to sin by lusting, then ask a man if what you're wearing causes his glance to become a second look that leads to a gaze and maybe more.

While I agree with most of what you say, there is a cultural aspect. If I were to go to the Middle East, even my very conservative attire would have men accusing me of being a whore because my hair is not covered and in some places because my face is not covered. Here we generally believe that a woman exposing her calves is still being modest but in some countries that would be the mark of a whore. Culture DOES play a role in how "modesty" is defined.

From my male perspective I think Rabiknife pretty much hit it on the head. I'm not quite where he is yet but I am learning, by the grace of God, to turn my head and refuse to be drawn in. I don't blame the girls who expose themselves if I don't though. If I sin it is by my own choice.
And of course culture plays a huge part in it as Frecs and others have pointed out.

Here in America sex is money. What I mean by that is that sex is used to sell just about every type of product on the market. Sex is also used to get viewers for TV and movies and even in our music. Woman are hit with visuals of what "Sexy" is and how they should be "Sexy" from the time they start being cognitive and developing into the person they will be.

If the girl is raised in a church they should have been taught that the world shouldn't define who they are but that instead God has a special plan for them and that they do not need to serve the eyes and desires of men to be special. They already are special just being themselves.

If they haven't been raised in the church the woman in the church should indeed take them aside or gently, with love, instruct them or show them the Godly way.

It's nice to see how humble some of you men are in saying it's not the woman's fault should a man lust. However, I disagree. A godly man will either stay away from the beach or porn to keep from falling into a lustful situation, but don't kid yourself into thinking that a woman isn't dressing a certain way to get you to do just that. She is.

Frecs, in your original post you mentioned a woman's dress especially in the church. For the life of me, I can't understand it when a Christian woman comes into the church showing another man what belongs only to her husband, unless of course she doesn't have one. In that case, why would a godly woman want to entice another woman's husband with what she has. Yes the man has the responsibility to look the other way. It was mentioned previously that men are visual creatures and women know that. I would say it is the wife's responsibility to go give that woman a piece of her mind! (I am speaking of a Christian woman dressing in a prerogative way, not an unsaved woman who comes into the church. The first concern then is their salvation.)

And, in all likelihood, if that wife gave "that woman" a piece of her mind, "that woman" would say it isn't her husband she is trying to entice. She is trying to attract a husband. How many times, even on this board, have single women been told that they should look for their mate at church? Okay, so, there they are going to church to look for a mate like they've been told to do and now they are accused of trying to steal someone's husband. :eek:

And, let's been totally frank here, how many of the single eligible men in your church do you know that would pick the modestly dressed single woman over the one wearing the more enticing clothing? They are visual, after all, and the nature of the beast is to want to mate with the most attractive mate they can. How, pray tell, is the more modestly attired woman supposed to attract their attention? Oh...I think this is a good question for another thread...please answer here (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/217752-Attracting-Godly-Men...?p=2560338#post2560338).

Didn't that verse which talks about the women dressing modestly really mean dress that wasn't flashy, and exhorbitant -- that didn't draw unnecessary attention to oneself -- like "look at me. I'm rich. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

I don't think it had to do with dressing sexually provocatively.

WOW!!! Thought I actually made a pretty good observation here. Kind of saddened that so many of my comments in so many threads I "participate" in (if you could call it that -- pretty hard to participate when no one even acknowledges or cares what you say) go unnoticed. Makes me feel like my comments are of less value than everyone else's.

Modesty should be in one's heart. Unless we feel convicted by our clothing, I doubt we will change. I used to dress with dresses that were low cut. Shirts that were v-neck and revealed to much of my skin and my breasts. I would go to the beach and not feel convicted over anything. I started feeling a change in my heart when I read that women should clothe themselves in modest apparel. And be gentle, quiet, and realizing that my body is the Lord Jesus Christ. I hate the fact that once before I was allowing eyes to be on me in such an impure way. I dress myself in a way now that no man will look at anything other than my eyes. Making sure my clothes is in check all the time, and questioning "is this outfit glorifying God?". We need to have a pure heart, clear conscience, and realizing the grace that the Lord gives us. I want my body to be pure for the Lord and for whomever He places me to complete. I love You Lord.

WOW!!! Thought I actually made a pretty good observation here. Kind of saddened that so many of my comments in so many threads I "participate" in (if you could call it that -- pretty hard to participate when no one even acknowledges or cares what you say) go unnoticed. Makes me feel like my comments are of less value than everyone else's.

Hi Equipped -

Lots of my posts go unnoticed as well. I'm not sure there's a reason for it, it just happens.

Hi Equipped -

Lots of my posts go unnoticed as well. I'm not sure there's a reason for it, it just happens.

.....or, perhaps its because a lot of the stuff I say is stupid

.....or, perhaps its because a lot of the stuff I say is stupid

Knock it off :-)

You KNOW better than that.
(((((Hugs)))))
V

Didn't that verse which talks about the women dressing modestly really mean dress that wasn't flashy, and exhorbitant -- that didn't draw unnecessary attention to oneself -- like "look at me. I'm rich. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

I don't think it had to do with dressing sexually provocatively.

Looking at the Lexicon for the word used in 1 Timothy 2:9 for "modestly", it says:

1) a sense of shame or honour, modesty, bashfulness, reverence, regard for others, respect

I think that it can be taken both ways: don't dress provocatively but also "don't be flashy and showy". Especially when looking at the verse in context, there are both aspects to it.... We should draw attention to ourselves through good works and good character rather than through provocative or flashy clothing.

Very good point! :D

WOW!!! Thought I actually made a pretty good observation here. Kind of saddened that so many of my comments in so many threads I "participate" in (if you could call it that -- pretty hard to participate when no one even acknowledges or cares what you say) go unnoticed. Makes me feel like my comments are of less value than everyone else's.

I'm sorry, your post didn't go unnoticed, but I am guilty of not replying to it.

You make a good point, however instead of dressing for men, we should dress for THE MAN.. God! :)

Jeanne

Btw.. I always read your posts and I am happy to see that the Lord is doing a work in your life! :hug:

WOW!!! Thought I actually made a pretty good observation here. Kind of saddened that so many of my comments in so many threads I "participate" in (if you could call it that -- pretty hard to participate when no one even acknowledges or cares what you say) go unnoticed. Makes me feel like my comments are of less value than everyone else's.

You know what? Some of the posts I think are so AWESOME get absolutely no notice! Don't let it fret you....and don't let the Enemy mess with your head about it!!!

It's nice to see how humble some of you men are in saying it's not the woman's fault should a man lust. However, I disagree. A godly man will either stay away from the beach or porn to keep from falling into a lustful situation, but don't kid yourself into thinking that a woman isn't dressing a certain way to get you to do just that. She is.


That's true....some women do....won't argue with that.

I also believe that some men take it too far, too, though. I heard a pastor on the radio one time say that women should not wear purses with shoulder straps, that go across the front area, because it draws attention to the woman's breast, and will stumble the brothers.

I'm sorry, but if a woman's purse is going to entice a man to lust, then that man has some serious issues.

You know what? Some of the posts I think are so AWESOME get absolutely no notice! Don't let it fret you....and don't let the Enemy mess with your head about it!!!

You're absolutely right.

Thanks everyone :)

That's true....some women do....won't argue with that.

I also believe that some men take it too far, too, though. I heard a pastor on the radio one time say that women should not wear purses with shoulder straps, that go across the front area, because it draws attention to the woman's breast, and will stumble the brothers.

I'm sorry, but if a woman's purse is going to entice a man to lust, then that man has some serious issues.

As someone who has a purse fetish, I can understand this.





I'm kidding! :lol:

Jeanne :D

As someone who has a purse fetish, I can understand this.





I'm kidding! :lol:

Jeanne :D

hahahaha.....I cant afford to have a purse fetish.

Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. No wonder a lot of women are apprehensive to befriend guys -- like, what is their motive

While I agree with most of what you say, there is a cultural aspect. If I were to go to the Middle East, even my very conservative attire would have men accusing me of being a whore because my hair is not covered and in some places because my face is not covered. Here we generally believe that a woman exposing her calves is still being modest but in some countries that would be the mark of a whore. Culture DOES play a role in how "modesty" is defined.

Yes, culture does play a role. But what I am arguing is that culture does not define sin and therefore plays no role in modesty as given in the Bible. In other words, culture may condemn where God does not and culture may permit where God does not. So we can argue modesty along the lines of culture, or we can consider culture concerning modesty, but it is God who judges and ultimately when he does, culture will play no role in the matter.

Still, perhaps I am mistaken to a degree in this. For example, if women in the US were transported back in time to the days of Jesus' life on earth, would even a very conservatively dressed woman be considered anything but? Perhaps. Therefore, in our society, it may very well be that we fall within God's definition of modesty without the framework of our society today.

In the final analysis, it would seem that we are to know and understand what Jesus said about a woman dressing such that it would influence a man to lust after her.

And to your point that culture does play a role in how modesty is defined, yes, I agree with that.

hahahaha.....I cant afford to have a purse fetish.

Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. No wonder a lot of women are apprehensive to befriend guys -- like, what is their motive

Yep. It does. And then, when we react based on this supposition, we are accused of being male-hating feminists. :B

Yep. It does. And then, when we react based on this supposition, we are accused of being male-hating feminists. :B

Yes. If what this pastor says is really true, then we can assume that even Christian men are prone to see women as sex objects. How sad!!!

Here’s a question to ponder:

In many discussions about how to dress (especially for church) it has been said that women should dress “modestly” so as not to cause a brother to stumble. While I think I understand the general gist of that (and agree) I’m going to pretend I don’t for the sake of this discussion. Based on that:

What do you mean by “modest”? How much flesh is too much flesh to expose?

I went back to your original post because it was posted, "Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. "
Ok, so if anyone feels that way, why would anyone considering exposing any "flesh" to draw attention to a man who only think about sex?" in church!!!!

Seriously,men are physical beings, women are emotional beings. We are attracted to each other because we balance each other out.

Button up your shirt, go to church and worship the Lord your God. It would be shameful to think that a woman's breast is what got her the husband she desired during a worship service.

Why would you assume that anything such a pastor said is true?

Maybe it's true for him, and the lust problem is in his heart, not in a woman's cleavage?

I went back to your original post because it was posted, "Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. "
Ok, so if anyone feels that way, why would anyone considering exposing any "flesh" to draw attention to a man who only think about sex?" in church!!!!

Seriously,men are physical beings, women are emotional beings. We are attracted to each other because we balance each other out.

Button up your shirt, go to church and worship the Lord your God. It would be shameful to think that a woman's breast is what got her the husband she desired during a worship service.

The original thought of the thread was a springboard off the "how to dress modestly" thread....if a Christian single woman is dressing modestly and yet men are "physical beings" as you suggest (and some men admit but others deny) then how is a modest, plain Christian woman suppose to get their attention long enough to let her spirit shine forth?

I agree that church service is not the place to be flashing the wares, so to speak, to get a man's attention but "find a man at church" is the common advice.
I agree that if the kind of man one attracts is the one who is most focused on the physical features then one is attracting the wrong kind of man -- but that doesn't leave very many options to be honest.

So, based on all that....what is left for a God loving Christian single woman supposed to do to attract the right kind of God-loving Christian single male? THAT is the intended focus of this thread.

I think that another thing that we need to keep in mind when it comes to this issue is love and respect for God, ourselves, as well as members of the opposite gender. What I mean by that is that, when women for example get dressed on Sunday morning for church, they should think about, first and foremost, what God thinks about their various wardrobe choices. In other words, while they are looking through their closet and trying to decide what to wear that day, they ideally should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this particular piece of clothing that I'm thinking about wearing show my love and respect for God by giving glory and honor to Him, or does it call attention to parts of my body that only my husband should be thinking about and seeing in the privacy of our own home?" Similarly, they should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this piece of clothing show that I love and respect myself in a healthy and godly way, or does it indicate that I am, in fact, quite insecure and feel the need to call attention to my body because I want desperately to be paid attention to by a member of the opposite sex?" Finally, they should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this piece of clothing show love and respect for members of the opposite gender by minimizing the opportunities for them to stumble by lusting after me, or does it, in fact, show too much skin or is too tight, and, as a result, makes it much more likely that members of the opposite gender will stumble by lusting after me?" Now, I'm not saying this has to be a long, drawn-out thing, but it's something to at least consider. And, the reason I used women in my examples is that, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, men are much more visually oriented than women are. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Yes. If what this pastor says is really true, then we can assume that even Christian men are prone to see women as sex objects. How sad!!!

Men are very visual and its easy for them to trip up and start lusting...Christain men have to look away, quickly to avoid this...they shouldn't have to do this in church because women aren't being modest.


[QUOTE]karenoka27


I went back to your original post because it was posted, "Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. "
Ok, so if anyone feels that way, why would anyone considering exposing any "flesh" to draw attention to a man who only think about sex?" in church!!!!

Seriously,men are physical beings, women are emotional beings. We are attracted to each other because we balance each other out.

Button up your shirt, go to church and worship the Lord your God. It would be shameful to think that a woman's breast is what got her the husband she desired during a worship service.

I am self-conscious and I think we all should be and consider others first before ourselves because frankly, that is what the bible says to do. So I dress in ways not to draw attention to myself...especially not this way. That last thing I want to do is cause a brother to sin...that would be to my shame for sure. Now if I had done all I could to be modest and a brother in Christ still had lustful thoughts, that is on him alone.

God bless

I think that another thing that we need to keep in mind when it comes to this issue is love and respect for God, ourselves, as well as members of the opposite gender. What I mean by that is that, when women for example get dressed on Sunday morning for church, they should think about, first and foremost, what God thinks about their various wardrobe choices. In other words, while they are looking through their closet and trying to decide what to wear that day, they ideally should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this particular piece of clothing that I'm thinking about wearing show my love and respect for God by giving glory and honor to Him, or does it call attention to parts of my body that only my husband should be thinking about and seeing in the privacy of our own home?" Similarly, they should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this piece of clothing show that I love and respect myself in a healthy and godly way, or does it indicate that I am, in fact, quite insecure and feel the need to call attention to my body because I want desperately to be paid attention to by a member of the opposite sex?" Finally, they should be thinking something along the lines of, "Does this piece of clothing show love and respect for members of the opposite gender by minimizing the opportunities for them to stumble by lusting after me, or does it, in fact, show too much skin or is too tight, and, as a result, makes it much more likely that members of the opposite gender will stumble by lusting after me?" Now, I'm not saying this has to be a long, drawn-out thing, but it's something to at least consider. And, the reason I used women in my examples is that, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, men are much more visually oriented than women are. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Thank you!
I have always taught my children and my teen Sunday school students and ladies at Bible study, before you leave the house for church, look in the mirror and ask: "Lord are you ok with the way I look today?" He knows your heart and motives, you know your heart and motives..." If you are ok...then go and trust the Lord. If your husband should be in church, I think that God might just be wise enough to have him sit in your pew!:D

MOD NOTE:

Let's remember that this is not a debate forum. We are all here to help and encourage one another in our walk with Christ.

Thank you.

Jeanne :)

Do Christians really have these conversations in their head before they go to church?

Do single men and women really go to church with the thought in their head of "I hope I can find a spouse today"?

Do any men and women really go to church with the thought "I hope I'm dressed sexy enough/not too sexy"?

I find this entire process mind-boggling.

Do Christians really have these conversations in their head before they go to church?

Do single men and women really go to church with the thought in their head of "I hope I can find a spouse today"? Actually some do...I read it on the women's forum alot. Seriously..where else can they expect to find a husband without going to a bar?

Do any men and women really go to church with the thought "I hope I'm dressed sexy enough/not too sexy"? I wish some would!

I find this entire process mind-boggling.

I will give two examples of how not to dress for church...don't wear a G-string ladies where if you have to bend over and care for a small child its exposed to everyone.

This happened one time in church with a lady visiting and had several young children and bent over in her seat to do something with one of the children and a man was sitting right behind her. He appeared to do a very good job on keeping his eyes on the pastor and I applaud him for that. I was behind him and my mouth dropped open when I saw quite a lot of her G-string. :eek:

Second...yes for pete's sake check yourselves ladies for cleveage and bouncing if you dance in your church...or just get excited during praise music and jump around...because close by is a teenage boy already struggling with hormones and doesn't need to see this! A mature Christian man can look away...don't expect a teenage boy too.

Though because I have always dressed conservatively and so has all the women in our family my son has not be raised around cleveage...shudder. I have a big problem with cleavage...sorry. I think it needs to be covered up. I get SICK of seeing cleveage on the cover of every magazine out there as IF that is all that is important a woman. :mad:

Even my son noticed when women dress like this and someone is talking to them, they aren't looking at her face most of the time...:rolleyes: Who wants their ...chest talked too? ugh.

At any rate when the lady in question was jumping around with an already low cut shirt and a bra that didn't support her at all during praise music at church my son said he thought he was going to vomit. Now he is obviously not the norm on this. or maybe he is..:hmm:...Anyway its really unfair to expose young boys and teens in church to this kind of stuff. It really is.

I would tell you my thoughts on G-strings but this is a 'G' rated board...:lol: Lets just say, keep them covered up please!! thanks.

God bless

Didn't that verse which talks about the women dressing modestly really mean dress that wasn't flashy, and exhorbitant -- that didn't draw unnecessary attention to oneself -- like "look at me. I'm rich. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!"

I don't think it had to do with dressing sexually provocatively.


Looking at the Lexicon for the word used in 1 Timothy 2:9 for "modestly", it says:

1) a sense of shame or honour, modesty, bashfulness, reverence, regard for others, respect

I think that it can be taken both ways: don't dress provocatively but also "don't be flashy and showy". Especially when looking at the verse in context, there are both aspects to it.... We should draw attention to ourselves through good works and good character rather than through provocative or flashy clothing.

Very good point! :D

Hey, girls. Here just my own personal understanding of that scripture. I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 mentions women adorning themselves in "modest apparel."

Christians everywhere use these two words from this one verse taken out of context to mean that they can formulate the exact specifications of how long a dress must be, how low a neckline must stop at, how long a sleeve must be, how loose trousers must be, and what kind of undergarments one must wear.

You ladies aren't doing this, but many Christians do.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 is talking more about behavior than it is about actual garments.

How do I know?

Go back to the beginning of 1 Timothy 2.

Paul says that we are to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and to give thanks for everybody including those in authority over us. If we do this, then we all can lead quiet and peaceful lives. This pleases God our Savior very much Paul says and he says that God wants everyone to be saved and to know the truth. Then Paul proceeds to tell the truth about Jesus.

OK, so far, Paul is talking about spiritual matters.

"THEREFORE......"

Now he says with that in mind, the men should be lifting holy hands and praying with NO arguments and NO anger amongst them.

OK, still spiritual matters.

"IN LIKE MANNER ALSO........"

Hmmmm.....

"In like manner also....."

"In LIKE manner also....."

Like whom? The men. Also what? Holy and spiritually minded.

How? By "wearing" holy things.

The men are to lift holy hands and focus on leading the worship service. The women are wear "holy apparel" focus on maintaining an atmosphere of worship.

The greek word for apparel is a "garment". What are those holy garments that women are to "wear"?

* shamefacedness (reverence for others)
* sobriety (self-control)
* professing godliness
* good works

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."


Paul did not say for them to adorn themselves with garments of loose-fitting trousers or dresses, mid-sleeved jackets, and close-toed shoes.

He said to adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety and good works.

Thayer's lexicon says that kosmios means "a well-ordered life".

When Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16 that bishops must be blameless and live a life of "good behaviour"..... "behaviour" in the King James Bible means the same thing - kosmios.

Paul isn't talking about a woman's bra strap showing in church or a ban on her wearing open-toed shoes while singing in the choir. He isn't talking about pants vs. dresses. He isn't talking about the length of a shirt sleeve or long denim skirts or undergarments or bathing suits.

He is talking about "in the like manner" of the men.

The women are to be spiritually minded.

They are to be "clothed" in holiness.

"Clothed" in shamefacedness (reverence), sobriety (self-control), professing godliness, and doing good works. If a woman is clothing herself in these things, her literal clothing will take care of itself.

But, if she is obsessed with her outer apparel and ignores Paul's teaching of the spiritual apparel, she can dress in a bikini on the beach or gunny sack down to her toes on the front pew and go straight to hell and take her family with her.

I do believe that women AND men should dress in order to be respectful of God, themselves, and others.

But 1 Timothy 2:9-10 isn't a foundation for this topic of women's clothing styles or hiding the shapes of their bodies.

It's about women, in like manner of the men having a holiness directive in order to achieve 1 Timothy 2:1-8, having a holiness directive of their own.

A kosmios directive. Just like the kosmos directive in 1 Peter 3:1-4.

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment (kosmos), such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

This verse isn't talking about literal garments at all. It's talking about living a Godly lifestyle so as to promote holiness.

***********

I am moving this to Bible Chat. Please continue your discussion from there.

Thanks for understanding.

Jeanne

One more thing, if you can tolerate me. I've said this before,too. Sorry.

Let me say that I have no problem with women dressing respectably. Women ought to wear decent clothes. Shame on those who don't.

Why?

To "prevent men from lusting"? Here's my first issue.

James 1:13-15 says that the lusts of evil desires are within us and consume us from within, not from without.

Lust is in the heart of a man, not the body of a woman. A man who struggles with lust will struggle in the presence of a woman in a bathing suit or a burka. He will struggle with dirty jokes and his heart will seek out the profane in mundane things. He will lust over a woman with no make-up on who is wearing a jogging suit as well as any other woman.

Nonetheless, women, as nurturers, should dress as not be a stumbling block to a man. A stumbling block is not the cause of the problem. It is not the root of the problem. It is not the heart of the problem. It is not THE problem. But a stumbling block can hinder someone who already has a problem.

I get kind of weary of hearing that men are ALL hound dogs and that they ALL have problems of this nature and that we women should ALL wear sack cloths.

I think that we should approach this respectable clothing issue from another angle. We should teach our daughters to have self-respect. I have found that we women have very limited power in this world. And if you teach some women and some young girls over and over that if they dress provocatively that they will cause a weak man to stumble, then they will dress that way ON PURPOSE!! I've seen it. More than once.

Instead of teaching a young woman that her body is a wicked thing that causes good men to FAIL spiritually and that she should hide it at all costs, why not approach the matter of dressing in a decent manner in terms of teaching her that her body is fearfully and wonderfully made and is something she can dress in all kinds of decent and attractive styles in order that she can SUCCEED spiritually.

Let's take lust in the heart of a man off of the table and put Godliness in the heart of a woman smack in the middle of the table.

I think we'd get a lot further that way.

Female Modesty in Judaism: exposed skin above the elbow or knee, or below the clavicle. For a married woman, uncovered hair. No pants, because that is technically a man's garment.

Female Modesty in Judaism: exposed skin above the elbow or knee, or below the clavicle. For a married woman, uncovered hair. No pants, because that is technically a man's garment.

How do orthodox Jews handle those prohibitions/guidelines in the IDF?

Hey, girls. Here just my own personal understanding of that scripture. I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 mentions women adorning themselves in "modest apparel."

Christians everywhere use these two words from this one verse taken out of context to mean that they can formulate the exact specifications of how long a dress must be, how low a neckline must stop at, how long a sleeve must be, how loose trousers must be, and what kind of undergarments one must wear.

You ladies aren't doing this, but many Christians do.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 is talking more about behavior than it is about actual garments.

How do I know?

Go back to the beginning of 1 Timothy 2.

Paul says that we are to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and to give thanks for everybody including those in authority over us. If we do this, then we all can lead quiet and peaceful lives. This pleases God our Savior very much Paul says and he says that God wants everyone to be saved and to know the truth. Then Paul proceeds to tell the truth about Jesus.

OK, so far, Paul is talking about spiritual matters.

"THEREFORE......"

Now he says with that in mind, the men should be lifting holy hands and praying with NO arguments and NO anger amongst them.

OK, still spiritual matters.

"IN LIKE MANNER ALSO........"

Hmmmm.....

"In like manner also....."

"In LIKE manner also....."

Like whom? The men. Also what? Holy and spiritually minded.

How? By "wearing" holy things.

The men are to lift holy hands and focus on leading the worship service. The women are wear "holy apparel" focus on maintaining an atmosphere of worship.

The greek word for apparel is a "garment". What are those holy garments that women are to "wear"?

* shamefacedness (reverence for others)
* sobriety (self-control)
* professing godliness
* good works

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."


Paul did not say for them to adorn themselves with garments of loose-fitting trousers or dresses, mid-sleeved jackets, and close-toed shoes.

He said to adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety and good works.

Thayer's lexicon says that kosmios means "a well-ordered life".

When Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16 that bishops must be blameless and live a life of "good behaviour"..... "behaviour" in the King James Bible means the same thing - kosmios.

Paul isn't talking about a woman's bra strap showing in church or a ban on her wearing open-toed shoes while singing in the choir. He isn't talking about pants vs. dresses. He isn't talking about the length of a shirt sleeve or long denim skirts or undergarments or bathing suits.

He is talking about "in the like manner" of the men.

The women are to be spiritually minded.

They are to be "clothed" in holiness.

"Clothed" in shamefacedness (reverence), sobriety (self-control), professing godliness, and doing good works. If a woman is clothing herself in these things, her literal clothing will take care of itself.

But, if she is obsessed with her outer apparel and ignores Paul's teaching of the spiritual apparel, she can dress in a bikini on the beach or gunny sack down to her toes on the front pew and go straight to hell and take her family with her.

I do believe that women AND men should dress in order to be respectful of God, themselves, and others.

But 1 Timothy 2:9-10 isn't a foundation for this topic of women's clothing styles or hiding the shapes of their bodies.

It's about women, in like manner of the men having a holiness directive in order to achieve 1 Timothy 2:1-8, having a holiness directive of their own.

A kosmios directive. Just like the kosmos directive in 1 Peter 3:1-4.

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment (kosmos), such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

This verse isn't talking about literal garments at all. It's talking about living a Godly lifestyle so as to promote holiness.


I would agree to a point with you..I addressed these passages on the first page...why would Paul mention pearls and other things women of Rome commonly wore back then if he wasn't also talking about their clothing?

Plus we have other verses that also seem to be talking about how we dress too:

1 Peter 3

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

1 Corinthians 8:12-13 (New King James Version)

12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. (we all know that this verse goes far beyond just meaning food too but anything that can cause another brethren to stumble and sin).

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Romans 13:13-14 (New King James Version)

13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Cain asked God, if he was his brothers keeper...not in a sincere way either. The answer to that is yes we are.

God bless

How do orthodox Jews handle those prohibitions/guidelines in the IDF?
Religious Israeli women may apply for an exemption from mandatory service.

If they choose to serve, they may wear a skirt.

Hey, girls. Here just my own personal understanding of that scripture. I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 mentions women adorning themselves in "modest apparel."

Christians everywhere use these two words from this one verse taken out of context to mean that they can formulate the exact specifications of how long a dress must be, how low a neckline must stop at, how long a sleeve must be, how loose trousers must be, and what kind of undergarments one must wear.

You ladies aren't doing this, but many Christians do.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 is talking more about behavior than it is about actual garments.

How do I know?

Go back to the beginning of 1 Timothy 2.

Paul says that we are to make petitions, prayers, intercessions, and to give thanks for everybody including those in authority over us. If we do this, then we all can lead quiet and peaceful lives. This pleases God our Savior very much Paul says and he says that God wants everyone to be saved and to know the truth. Then Paul proceeds to tell the truth about Jesus.

OK, so far, Paul is talking about spiritual matters.

"THEREFORE......"

Now he says with that in mind, the men should be lifting holy hands and praying with NO arguments and NO anger amongst them.

OK, still spiritual matters.

"IN LIKE MANNER ALSO........"

Hmmmm.....

"In like manner also....."

"In LIKE manner also....."

Like whom? The men. Also what? Holy and spiritually minded.

How? By "wearing" holy things.

The men are to lift holy hands and focus on leading the worship service. The women are wear "holy apparel" focus on maintaining an atmosphere of worship.

The greek word for apparel is a "garment". What are those holy garments that women are to "wear"?

* shamefacedness (reverence for others)
* sobriety (self-control)
* professing godliness
* good works

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."


Paul did not say for them to adorn themselves with garments of loose-fitting trousers or dresses, mid-sleeved jackets, and close-toed shoes.

He said to adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety and good works.

Thayer's lexicon says that kosmios means "a well-ordered life".

When Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16 that bishops must be blameless and live a life of "good behaviour"..... "behaviour" in the King James Bible means the same thing - kosmios.

Paul isn't talking about a woman's bra strap showing in church or a ban on her wearing open-toed shoes while singing in the choir. He isn't talking about pants vs. dresses. He isn't talking about the length of a shirt sleeve or long denim skirts or undergarments or bathing suits.

He is talking about "in the like manner" of the men.

The women are to be spiritually minded.

They are to be "clothed" in holiness.

"Clothed" in shamefacedness (reverence), sobriety (self-control), professing godliness, and doing good works. If a woman is clothing herself in these things, her literal clothing will take care of itself.

But, if she is obsessed with her outer apparel and ignores Paul's teaching of the spiritual apparel, she can dress in a bikini on the beach or gunny sack down to her toes on the front pew and go straight to hell and take her family with her.

I do believe that women AND men should dress in order to be respectful of God, themselves, and others.

But 1 Timothy 2:9-10 isn't a foundation for this topic of women's clothing styles or hiding the shapes of their bodies.

It's about women, in like manner of the men having a holiness directive in order to achieve 1 Timothy 2:1-8, having a holiness directive of their own.

A kosmios directive. Just like the kosmos directive in 1 Peter 3:1-4.

Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment (kosmos), such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

This verse isn't talking about literal garments at all. It's talking about living a Godly lifestyle so as to promote holiness.


I agree but there are some really pretty dresses, tops, outfits out there that don't qualify as sackcloths.

If a man lusts after a pretty woman who is dressed modestly, (and that happens because he may have a problem with that sort of thing), then God knows she is not being a stumbling block to him.

I have seen some really beautiful women whom I have even noticed, not because they were wearing anything revealing, but because they were just beautiful.

Jeanne

Do Christians really have these conversations in their head before they go to church?

Do single men and women really go to church with the thought in their head of "I hope I can find a spouse today"?

Do any men and women really go to church with the thought "I hope I'm dressed sexy enough/not too sexy"?

I find this entire process mind-boggling.

Single men and women do think about finding a spouse. So, whether consciously or subconsciously, yes that thought in there -- will I find "Mr/Miss" Right today?

I don't ask myself if I'm dressed to sexy before going to church -- rather, when I'm shopping I ask "is this too revealing"? Modesty should be a 24/7/365 proposition, not just church on Sunday.

And, yes, there are individuals who select clothing with the idea "does this make me look attractive (sexy) to the opposite sex"? To deny this is to have one's head in the sand. Keep in mind that Christian singles in America are not abstaining from sexual activity as they should be. Shocking but true. This is why I feel these conversations are important. Our young (and not so young) singles are in need of teaching...even in areas that we might assume is "obvious".

I would agree to a point with you..I addressed these passages on the first page...why would Paul mention pearls and other things women of Rome commonly wore back then if he wasn't also talking about their clothing?

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

Why did Paul mention the braided hair, gold, pearls, and costly garments? When I read this, I see his mention of them as him explaining what he is NOT talking about - in other words, his clarification that he is not talking about the physical garments, but the spiritual.

Even if he were talking about a woman keeping her body covered up, why would his contrast of that be expensive and flashy clothes? Wouldn't the contrast be revealing clothes that exposed the body?

And because the first part of that passage leading up to that verse is talking about holiness and spiritual matters, I have to interpret that this is what women are supposed to be clothed in - holiness, sobriety, shamefacedness, godliness, and good works.

This is not a hill on which I choose to die. It's just how I read and understand the verse in context.


Plus we have other verses that also seem to be talking about how we dress too:

1 Peter 3

3 Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— 4 rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

1 Corinthians 8:12-13 (New King James Version)

12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. (we all know that this verse goes far beyond just meaning food too but anything that can cause another brethren to stumble and sin).

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Romans 13:13-14 (New King James Version)

13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

I don't see these verses at all as dictating how a woman should dress herself.

I do see these verses as being huge umbrellas that could include, in application, a woman dressing decently because others are weak. It could also include a man speaking with honor to his wife because she may be fragile or a child being obedient to his parents and influencing his peers to do the same or many other matters.

The verse in question, about the "modest apparel" could also be an umbrella to include, in application of the shamefacedness, sobriety, godliness, good works, and holiness - a decent style of dressing. Also under that same umbrella could be speaking with kindness and respect to a husband, being an example for younger women to follow, and all sorts of things.


Cain asked God, if he was his brothers keeper...not in a sincere way either. The answer to that is yes we are.

I believe that. Included in that is how we watch how we speak, behave, think, dress, and represent Christ.

All I was saying was that I do not believe the verse in question is a literal command of what kind of clothes women are to wear. It's much deeper than that.

Single men and women do think about finding a spouse. So, whether consciously or subconsciously, yes that thought in there -- will I find "Mr/Miss" Right today?

I don't ask myself if I'm dressed to sexy before going to church -- rather, when I'm shopping I ask "is this too revealing"? Modesty should be a 24/7/365 proposition, not just church on Sunday.

And, yes, there are individuals who select clothing with the idea "does this make me look attractive (sexy) to the opposite sex"? To deny this is to have one's head in the sand. Keep in mind that Christian singles in America are not abstaining from sexual activity as they should be. Shocking but true. This is why I feel these conversations are important. Our young (and not so young) singles are in need of teaching...even in areas that we might assume is "obvious".

Very good points, Frecs. I'm sorry that if in my previous post I made it seem as though modesty should only be considered/thought about on Sunday morning when getting dressed for church. That was not my intention. I was just using that as an example because, if I remember correctly, that was the example used in the OP. Hope that helps clarify my thought process.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Very good points, Frecs. I'm sorry that if in my previous post I made it seem as though modesty should only be considered/thought about on Sunday morning when getting dressed for church. That was not my intention. I was just using that as an example because, if I remember correctly, that was the example used in the OP. Hope that helps clarify my thought process.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

You were fine....I was responding to Rabbiknife's question. :)

I will give two examples of how not to dress for church...don't wear a G-string ladies where if you have to bend over and care for a small child its exposed to everyone.

This happened one time in church with a lady visiting and had several young children and bent over in her seat to do something with one of the children and a man was sitting right behind her. He appeared to do a very good job on keeping his eyes on the pastor and I applaud him for that. I was behind him and my mouth dropped open when I saw quite a lot of her G-string. :eek:

...I would tell you my thoughts on G-strings but this is a 'G' rated board...:lol: Lets just say, keep them covered up please!! thanks.

God bless

moonglow:

Not to derail this thread, but I have a somewhat similar story to share about Christian women wearing thong/G-string underwear. Don't worry, though. It is G-rated. I was a student at a small, private, Christian liberal arts college off and on from 1998 until 2005, when I was allowed to walk in the graduation ceremony. 5 years later, I still don't have my degree, but that is a whole other story. Anyways, when I first started going there, they held chapel in the sanctuary of a nearby church, but then at some point while I was there, for whatever reason, the church in question decided to stop allowing the school to use their sanctuary for chapels. So, chapel was switched to the gym, with the students sitting on the bleachers and the speakers standing on the basketball court floor. One time, after I had sat down somewhere in the middle of the bleachers, a young lady walked down to the bottom of the bleachers and sat down with her friends. As she did so, her pants rode down a little bit and I could quite clearly see the back of a pair of thong panties sitting much higher on her waist than her pants were. I quickly looked away, but, to be honest, the thoughts that came into my head, if I remember correctly, were not lustful but confused. I remember thinking something along the lines of, "Why would any self-respecting Christian young lady wear something like that?" After all, as part of being accepted to attend that particular college, you had to sign a form which stated that you were a Christian. And, we were in chapel, getting ready to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ, and she was wearing a THONG?! That is absolutely mind-boggling to me. Of course, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, it is up to the more wise/mature/discerning Christian women to teach the younger ones about dressing modestly and such, especially if the younger ones are unaware of what kinds of messages those sorts of clothing items send to the opposite sex. Which this particular young woman apparently was. Hopefully, she has learned that lesson since then. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

What about a thong underwear is ungodly or immodest if it is not seen?

Is it impossible to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ while wearing a thong?

What about a thong underwear is ungodly or immodest if it is not seen?

Is it impossible to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ while wearing a thong?

..... As long as they keep the dental floss in the bathroom we're good !!

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

Why did Paul mention the braided hair, gold, pearls, and costly garments? When I read this, I see his mention of them as him explaining what he is NOT talking about - in other words, his clarification that he is not talking about the physical garments, but the spiritual.

Even if he were talking about a woman keeping her body covered up, why would his contrast of that be expensive and flashy clothes? Wouldn't the contrast be revealing clothes that exposed the body?

And because the first part of that passage leading up to that verse is talking about holiness and spiritual matters, I have to interpret that this is what women are supposed to be clothed in - holiness, sobriety, shamefacedness, godliness, and good works.

This is not a hill on which I choose to die. It's just how I read and understand the verse in context.



I don't see these verses at all as dictating how a woman should dress herself.

I do see these verses as being huge umbrellas that could include, in application, a woman dressing decently because others are weak. It could also include a man speaking with honor to his wife because she may be fragile or a child being obedient to his parents and influencing his peers to do the same or many other matters.

The verse in question, about the "modest apparel" could also be an umbrella to include, in application of the shamefacedness, sobriety, godliness, good works, and holiness - a decent style of dressing. Also under that same umbrella could be speaking with kindness and respect to a husband, being an example for younger women to follow, and all sorts of things.



I believe that. Included in that is how we watch how we speak, behave, think, dress, and represent Christ.

All I was saying was that I do not believe the verse in question is a literal command of what kind of clothes women are to wear. It's much deeper than that.

I think Paul is talking about both actually...not to be caught up in the world of flash in our dress and that the spiritual is what is important....but honestly jayne a woman dressed in a bikini in church is not thinking about clothing herself in the spiritual things or holiness...she is not thinking at all if you ask me. :rolleyes: Of course all of Jesus and Paul's teachings were to pulls believers away from worldly thoughts and concerns to spiritual thoughts and concerns...a woman concerned with the spiritual wouldn't possibly even consider wearing some of those things Paul mentioned which were the common dress by the Roman women in those days which is why he mentioned those things specifically. Very specifically...that wasn't just some general ideas he was using.

I think knowing the time and culture when Paul wrote this is helpful in fully understanding it. Women were dressing exactly like he described in that verse...which is why he says not to dress that way:
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002
he stola, catastola, girdle, , though simple in themselves, were often highly ornamented both with gold and precious stones; and, both among the Grecian and Roman women, the hair was often crisped and curled in the most variegated and complex manner. To this the apostle alludes when he says: Not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly raiment. The costly raiment might refer to the materials out of which the raiment was made, and to the workmanship; the gold and pearls, to the ornaments on the raiment.

With shame-facedness or modesty, This would lead them to avoid every thing unbecoming or meretricious in the mode or fashion of their dress.

With sobriety, Moderation would lead them to avoid all unnecessary expense. They might follow the custom or costume of the country as to the dress itself, for nothing was ever more becoming than the Grecian stola, catastola, and zona; but they must not imitate the extravagance of those who, through impurity or littleness of mind, decked themselves merely to attract the eye of admiration, or set in lying action the tongue of flattery. Woman has been invidiously defined: An animal fond of dress. How long will they permit themselves to be thus degraded?

Those beautiful lines of Homer, in which he speaks of the death of Euphorbus, who was slain by Menelaus, show how anciently the Grecians plaited and adorned their hair:-
The extravagance to which the Grecian and Asiatic women went in their ornaments might well be a reason for the apostle's command.

We know Paul was constantly battling worldly influences on the New Christian..especially those raised in these pagan cultures where literally anything goes. It was difficult to get them to living in the flesh and turn their minds to the spiritual. He had to address all sorts of things on that.

So its both literal and spiritual. Our outward appearances, just as our actions, speech, lifestyle reflect our hearts....anyone wanting to be like Christ isn't ...cannot dress like a hooker on main street...(back then prostitutes shaved their heads which is why its forbidden in the NT) Just in case anyone wanted to know that..:lol: So now if you wanted to shave your head it wouldn't be considered a shame...but dressing like one and standing on a corner it would probably be assumed you were one by today's standards. No one would assume that lady was a Christian by any means so her dress does have a direct affect on her witness.

So while we need to consider the culture then ...and their dress, hair styles, etc...are different then today's, it doesn't mean these passages don't apply but need to be used by today's standards. Now putting in fake pearls in our hair isn't going to be a big deal like it was in Paul's day...or getting a perm in our hair or fixing it up because now it can be done by ourselves at home or very cheaply where as back in his day it was very costly and done so the ladies could draw attention to themselves. Now its common and everyone just fits in with each other. I don't think in most cases our hair style would be much of an issue..its more with how we dress and girls have no sense of dignity or self respect anymore and think using their bodies in sexual ways is all they have to offer. Its incredibly sad. :cry:

They would have no clue how to put on 'holiness' at all. Not in any sense. :( I blame the media for alot of this actually. They show all the movie stars and singers and famous people as dressing in very immodest ways so these girls think that is how they should dress if they want to be liked...or loved. :(

God bless

While you won't find any such in my clothing items, I have to ask two things:

1. How did you know she was wearing a thong?
2. Why is that a problem as long as they are covered up? Were they showing out the top of her jeans?

Frankly, if I were to have a drawer full of sexy undies, what business is that of anyone?

I remember attending a bridal shower “lingerie” party for a Christian lady. Everyone had purchased conservative little silk PJs. Then, she got to my gift. Let’s just say that it was red, lace, and not much of it. Why would I give her such a thing? Because SHE WAS GETTING MARRIED. In the privacy of their bedroom, both she and her husband would enjoy it. That did not change the fact that they were both Godly Christians who worshipped God both on Sunday at church and throughout their week.

Ah, so we are back to modesty being defined, at least in part, by

1. cultural setting
2. context/location
3. audience

..... As long as they keep the dental floss in the bathroom we're good !!

:lol: that's what I've always called it too! I don't know how anyone can wear those things???

Jeanne

What about a thong underwear is ungodly or immodest if it is not seen?

Is it impossible to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ while wearing a thong?

Still can't respond due to G rating board...sorry! boy I sure wish I could!! :B:B

I know...you put one on then sing praises to the Lord...maybe that will give you an idea...:lol:


thethirdtuttle



Quote Originally Posted by moonglow
I will give two examples of how not to dress for church...don't wear a G-string ladies where if you have to bend over and care for a small child its exposed to everyone.

This happened one time in church with a lady visiting and had several young children and bent over in her seat to do something with one of the children and a man was sitting right behind her. He appeared to do a very good job on keeping his eyes on the pastor and I applaud him for that. I was behind him and my mouth dropped open when I saw quite a lot of her G-string.

...I would tell you my thoughts on G-strings but this is a 'G' rated board... Lets just say, keep them covered up please!! thanks.

God bless


moonglow:

Not to derail this thread, but I have a somewhat similar story to share about Christian women wearing thong/G-string underwear. Don't worry, though. It is G-rated. I was a student at a small, private, Christian liberal arts college off and on from 1998 until 2005, when I was allowed to walk in the graduation ceremony. 5 years later, I still don't have my degree, but that is a whole other story. Anyways, when I first started going there, they held chapel in the sanctuary of a nearby church, but then at some point while I was there, for whatever reason, the church in question decided to stop allowing the school to use their sanctuary for chapels. So, chapel was switched to the gym, with the students sitting on the bleachers and the speakers standing on the basketball court floor. One time, after I had sat down somewhere in the middle of the bleachers, a young lady walked down to the bottom of the bleachers and sat down with her friends. As she did so, her pants rode down a little bit and I could quite clearly see the back of a pair of thong panties sitting much higher on her waist than her pants were. I quickly looked away, but, to be honest, the thoughts that came into my head, if I remember correctly, were not lustful but confused. I remember thinking something along the lines of, "Why would any self-respecting Christian young lady wear something like that?" After all, as part of being accepted to attend that particular college, you had to sign a form which stated that you were a Christian. And, we were in chapel, getting ready to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ, and she was wearing a THONG?! That is absolutely mind-boggling to me. Of course, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, it is up to the more wise/mature/discerning Christian women to teach the younger ones about dressing modestly and such, especially if the younger ones are unaware of what kinds of messages those sorts of clothing items send to the opposite sex. Which this particular young woman apparently was. Hopefully, she has learned that lesson since then. God bless, and have a great day in the Lord!

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Wow...well...supposedly from what I pick up from the media seeing a girls G-string is suppose to be sexy ...though I honestly don't understand how it could be...gag.

Now I have heard of ladies in the past on this board say they wear them because they are comfortable and that is the only reason they wear them. I cannot begin to image how having a string...er..

can be comfortable...ick.

What about a thong underwear is ungodly or immodest if it is not seen?

Is it impossible to sing praise and worship songs to our loving God and merciful Savior Jesus Christ while wearing a thong?

If you look in the mirror before you leave and ask the Lord if what you are wearing is OK with Him.;)
1 Corinthians 10:31-"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

That doesn't exactly answer my question.

Why doesn't it? If you are going to church to worship God, and you ask Him if you have dressed appropriately, knowing that He knows the motives and intents of your heart, then you know whether it is ok or not to go to church dressed in a certain manner...seen by others or not.

Why would God care what my underwear looks like, or if I was wearing any at all? I understand that he prescribed specific underwear for the priests in the OT, but that was because they were doing a lot of climbing up and down steps to wash stuff and burn stuff and God didn't want the folks on the front row getting the extra matinee attraction.

What does that have to do with now?

Oh dear...I can see you are not a woman. Your only concern is briefs or boxers.
If a woman wears certain things it makes her feel certain ways. I don't know too many women who don't feel some sort of sexy in a thong.
(I see this is where you got your new thread from in Solomon's Porch)...

Oh dear...I can see you are not a woman. Your only concern is briefs or boxers.
If a woman wears certain things it makes her feel certain ways. I don't know too many women who don't feel some sort of sexy in a thong.
(I see this is where you got your new thread from in Solomon's Porch)...

And exactly why are you looking at threads in Solomon's Porch? Get back in the kitchen where you belong, woman....

:)

In the first post I said something like "Let's see how long it takes one of the ladies to say something about this thread"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Oh dear...I can see you are not a woman. Your only concern is briefs or boxers.


Awfully big assumption there!!!!!!!!

:)

Hasty post.. carry on!

Jeanne

Still can't respond due to G rating board...sorry! boy I sure wish I could!! :B:B

I know...you put one on then sing praises to the Lord...maybe that will give you an idea...:lol:
.

I'm sorry but I don't get your point? How would my worship be hindered by the type of underwear I'm wearing (or not)?

This is a great thread for telling the hips from the squares. As the expression goes.

This is a great thread for telling the hips from the squares. As the expression goes.

You know what? I thought I was a square until this thread!!! :rofl:

(Actually, I had a hint that I might actually be "kewl" a month ago when my sister was surprised to see me post a Relient K song to my facebook wall...she said she had no idea her sister was "kewl"!....so, I guess I just keep learning that I'm more Kewl and Hip than I imagined!!)

You know what? I thought I was a square until this thread!!! :rofl:

Yeah I'm kinda seeing a lot of people in a different light after seeing these posts. Not better, not worse...just with some new insight.

I'm sorry but I don't get your point? How would my worship be hindered by the type of underwear I'm wearing (or not)?

Frecs:

While I don't claim to speak for moonglow, the point I was trying to make with the story about the young lady who was wearing a thong at the Christian college chapel service was that it could be seen by anybody who happened to be sitting directly behind her. After all, it was sticking up at least an inch above the waistline of her pants. Thus, it could have been a stumbling for the young men in that gym (i.e., her spiritual brothers). All I was trying to say is that, in situations like that, it behooves the older/more mature/wiser women of God to pull such a one aside in a loving and respectful way, and explain to her how dressing in such a way shows disrespect to herself, God and others. Moonglow may disagree with me on this particular point, but I personally don't have a problem with women wearing thongs/G-strings, as long as other people can't see them. I hope this is not TMI, but I would love it if my wife would wear one from time to time, but she can't right now because of weight issues. Besides, she has told me she doesn't like them. To each his own, I guess. Anyways, I hope that clarifies my thinking on the issue.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Frecs:

While I don't claim to speak for moonglow, the point I was trying to make with the story about the young lady who was wearing a thong at the Christian college chapel service was that it could be seen by anybody who happened to be sitting directly behind her. After all, it was sticking up at least an inch above the waistline of her pants. Thus, it could have been a stumbling for the young men in that gym (i.e., her spiritual brothers). All I was trying to say is that, in situations like that, it behooves the older/more mature/wiser women of God to pull such a one aside in a loving and respectful way, and explain to her how dressing in such a way shows disrespect to herself, God and others. Moonglow may disagree with me on this particular point, but I personally don't have a problem with women wearing thongs/G-strings, as long as other people can't see them. I hope this is not TMI, but I would love it if my wife would wear one from time to time, but she can't right now because of weight issues. Besides, she has told me she doesn't like them. To each his own, I guess. Anyways, I hope that clarifies my thinking on the issue.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

That makes more sense! Underwear is for...well...underwear! It doesn't really matter whether it's thong, granny panties, boxers, or briefs...they should not be visible above the waistline (or through the fabric of) the outer garment! But, a woman (or man's) preference of undies really has no bearing on their ability to worship.

Frecs:

While I don't claim to speak for moonglow, the point I was trying to make with the story about the young lady who was wearing a thong at the Christian college chapel service was that it could be seen by anybody who happened to be sitting directly behind her. After all, it was sticking up at least an inch above the waistline of her pants. Thus, it could have been a stumbling for the young men in that gym (i.e., her spiritual brothers). All I was trying to say is that, in situations like that, it behooves the older/more mature/wiser women of God to pull such a one aside in a loving and respectful way, and explain to her how dressing in such a way shows disrespect to herself, God and others. Moonglow may disagree with me on this particular point, but I personally don't have a problem with women wearing thongs/G-strings, as long as other people can't see them. I hope this is not TMI, but I would love it if my wife would wear one from time to time, but she can't right now because of weight issues. Besides, she has told me she doesn't like them. To each his own, I guess. Anyways, I hope that clarifies my thinking on the issue.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

That is exactly what I was saying. I really could care less and its none of my business what kind of underwear people are wearing...or not (though its obvious when a lady isn't wearing a bar ...clearing throat here...so don't think people don't know or notice cause they do especially when the lady really needs the support).

Both thethirdtuttle and I gave examples though of what could happen if a lady isn't careful and chooses to wear thongs in public or church...just make sure if you bent over, walk, sit down, that your pants, skirt, etc, doesn't slip down exposing your underwear to the world. :rolleyes: Cause I know I don't want to see it...:cool:

I could never do security at the airports that is for sure! :lol::rolleyes:

God bless

Awfully big assumption there!!!!!!!!

:)

According to my son..they apparently make thongs for guys now. lol. He and his cousins were teasing another cousin for wearing low riding jeans showing his boxers and one tried to drop his pants like this to mock him...but it didn't work too well cause I guess he had some kind of thong underwear on...:rofl: The joke kind of backfired...:cool::lol:

I went back to your original post because it was posted, "Seriously, though, its this kind of attitude that makes a woman self-conscious, like all men ever think about is sex. "
Ok, so if anyone feels that way, why would anyone considering exposing any "flesh" to draw attention to a man who only think about sex?" in church!!!!

Seriously,men are physical beings, women are emotional beings. We are attracted to each other because we balance each other out.

Button up your shirt, go to church and worship the Lord your God. It would be shameful to think that a woman's breast is what got her the husband she desired during a worship service.

.....and ladies, don't carry purses with shoulder straps!!

Why would you assume that anything such a pastor said is true?

Maybe it's true for him, and the lust problem is in his heart, not in a woman's cleavage?

Amen!!! I agree. In the aforementioned case, how can it not be?!

"In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeō] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

Why did Paul mention the braided hair, gold, pearls, and costly garments? When I read this, I see his mention of them as him explaining what he is NOT talking about - in other words, his clarification that he is not talking about the physical garments, but the spiritual.

Even if he were talking about a woman keeping her body covered up, why would his contrast of that be expensive and flashy clothes? Wouldn't the contrast be revealing clothes that exposed the body?

And because the first part of that passage leading up to that verse is talking about holiness and spiritual matters, I have to interpret that this is what women are supposed to be clothed in - holiness, sobriety, shamefacedness, godliness, and good works.

This is not a hill on which I choose to die. It's just how I read and understand the verse in context.



I don't see these verses at all as dictating how a woman should dress herself.

I do see these verses as being huge umbrellas that could include, in application, a woman dressing decently because others are weak. It could also include a man speaking with honor to his wife because she may be fragile or a child being obedient to his parents and influencing his peers to do the same or many other matters.

The verse in question, about the "modest apparel" could also be an umbrella to include, in application of the shamefacedness, sobriety, godliness, good works, and holiness - a decent style of dressing. Also under that same umbrella could be speaking with kindness and respect to a husband, being an example for younger women to follow, and all sorts of things.



I believe that. Included in that is how we watch how we speak, behave, think, dress, and represent Christ.

All I was saying was that I do not believe the verse in question is a literal command of what kind of clothes women are to wear. It's much deeper than that.

I totally and completely agree with you. That is how I took the verse, as well.

.....and ladies, don't carry purses with shoulder straps!!

How come? :confused

How come? :confused

LOL....I had shared a scenario earlier that I heard a preacher saying that women should not carry these kids of purses because the go around the front and can draw attention to a woman's breast, and this will case the brothers to stumble. He said if we did so, we were not loving our brothers

Utterly ridiculous!!!

So, I hear the word "stumble" being thrown around here a lot. So, define stumble. Is it merely lusting, or does it apply to any sexual sin that a man may commit upon seeing a woman in risque dress.

Seriously, where is the line drawn? What if the guy goes home and looks at porn because he saw something inappropriate? Was it the woman's fault? So, when does it go from being the woman's fault to the man's?

What if he follows her home from church and rapes her? Would you say that's the woman's fault for dressing inappropriately at church?!

There are all sorts of male reactions to sexy clothes -- reactions that go way beyond just mere "lustful thoughts." So, at what line does the accountability shift from the woman to the man?

I remember attending a bridal shower “lingerie” party for a Christian lady. Everyone had purchased conservative little silk PJs. Then, she got to my gift. Let’s just say that it was red, lace, and not much of it. Why would I give her such a thing? Because SHE WAS GETTING MARRIED. In the privacy of their bedroom, both she and her husband would enjoy it. That did not change the fact that they were both Godly Christians who worshipped God both on Sunday at church and throughout their week.

Remind me to invite you to my bridal shower, frecs :)

Remind me to invite you to my bridal shower, frecs :)

:lol: The female music pastor of my church was sitting next to me at the shower--she whispered to me that when she got married, she would like the same thing in black! :lol:

So, I hear the word "stumble" being thrown around here a lot. So, define stumble. Is it merely lusting, or does it apply to any sexual sin that a man may commit upon seeing a woman in risque dress.

Seriously, where is the line drawn? What if the guy goes home and looks at porn because he saw something inappropriate? Was it the woman's fault? So, when does it go from being the woman's fault to the man's?

What if he follows her home from church and rapes her? Would you say that's the woman's fault for dressing inappropriately at church?!

There are all sorts of male reactions to sexy clothes -- reactions that go way beyond just mere "lustful thoughts." So, at what line does the accountability shift from the woman to the man?Paul of Tarsus tell us that the sin is in placing the stumbling blocks, not in the actual causation of another's sin:




Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

[13]Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. [14]I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. [15]For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. [16]So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. [17]For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. [18]Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. [19]So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

[20]Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. [21]It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. [22]The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. [23]But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
I don't think that anyone's saying that it's a woman's "fault" for someone raping her. Clearly the sin of lust is not absolved by the fact that someone has caused you to stumble, but the sin of causing one to stumble is also not absolved by the fact that it may or may not lead to a brother (or sister) actually stumbling. Both acts are sinful and both sins are the responsibility of those who chose to sin. In my view anyway.

And exactly why are you looking at threads in Solomon's Porch? Get back in the kitchen where you belong, woman....

:)

In the first post I said something like "Let's see how long it takes one of the ladies to say something about this thread"

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Okay RK, I had to go look see.....
My DDH rushed himself into my study to come see if I was okay.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

As a man thinketh in his or her heart, so are they. People themselves have a knowing inside as to whether they are trying to lure another person in a sinful way. Whether by dress or something else. Then it is sin. I personally am not going to cover my whole self up just because of another persons lust, (which would not be my fault.) Muslim women and other faiths cover their whole being up and still get raped. Sin is in the persons heart, not something on the outside. Also, when Paul was talking about women wearing such things as jewelry, he was not talking about that they should not wear it, but that it was more important on who you were on the inside. So many cults and false doctrines are because of mis-interpeting scripture. I do believe though, in women dressing appropiately, not too much exposure and I believe the same for men.

"It is doubtful that God can use a man greatly until He hurts him deeply." --A.W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God


I love this quote Frecs, SO TRUE, for both man and woman.

What about modest dress for men? Guys, have you ever gone for a run or mowed the grass with your shirt off? Ever stopped to wonder if you might be making a woman stumble?

Something to think about.I admit that I sometimes unbutton the top three buttons of my shirt, revealing my ample chest hair, in an immodest plea to women. Often they pass out in wonder. I feel quite guilty afterward.

I admit that I sometimes unbutton the top three buttons of my shirt, revealing my ample chest hair, in an immodest plea to women. Often they pass out in wonder. I feel quite guilty afterward.

That's not "wonder." That's nausea....

:)

That's not "wonder." That's nausea....

:)Well, I just assumed that the anguished look on their faces was a result of their inner struggle against the temptation I was presenting...

Well, I just assumed that the anguished look on their faces was a result of their inner struggle against the temptation I was presenting...

I'm lucky I don't have to worry about this, I look like a troll...

Based on the Hispanic "secular" culture... any shirt a female wears with 65% of the breasts exposed... is MODEST.

Which Hispanic culture are you referring to? I'm Hispanic and know of no culture where women go to church with 65% of their breasts exposed.