Really?

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?

What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?

If I am walking with God, submitted under his authority, and I resist the devil, and he doesn't flee from me, then it is a test that God has allowed. That's part of the lesson we learn with Job. However, your point is a good one! Much of what happens to us we allow because we break the laws of God in some way (i.e. don't resist, unbelief, don't submit to the authority of the Lord, lack of knowledge, etc.)

If I am walking with God, submitted under his authority, and I resist the devil, and he doesn't flee from me, then it is a test that God has allowed. That's part of the lesson we learn with Job. However, your point is a good one! Much of what happens to us we allow because we break the laws of God in some way (i.e. don't resist, unbelief, don't submit to the authority of the Lord, lack of knowledge, etc.)

I would say the devil will never NOT flee if we resist him. He just might not flee immediately. Scripture never says a timeframe for the devil's fleeing. He stuck around long enough to tempt Jesus with three things before splitting. Jesus did resist all three, though, and the devil eventually left with nothing more than a whimper. I think the same is true with us. I think there will be times that we have to endure temptation longer than others.

I do understand what you're saying, though.

I would say the devil will never NOT flee if we resist him. He just might not flee immediately. Scripture never says a timeframe for the devil's fleeing. He stuck around long enough to tempt Jesus with three things before splitting. Jesus did resist all three, though, and the devil eventually left with nothing more than a whimper. I think the same is true with us. I think there will be times that we have to endure temptation longer than others.

I do understand what you're saying, though.

Well, the fact it's not immediate tells me that the Lord has allowed him to stay. When authority and power come down from on high, nothing can stand in it's way. When Jesus approached the demons and devils they trembled with fear. When Jesus was in the desert, when he told Satan to flee, he left. By resist, I don't mean fight temptation. I mean fight the devil. Jesus fought the temptation, during his trial. But when he resisted the devil, after the trial was over, the enemy had to leave.

And if you go back and read about Jesus in the desert, it was a test allowed by God. That's why he resisted temptation at first, then resisted the enemy after the temptation was over. God was testing him. Satan was tempting him.

Another point I would make as well is that Job did not resist Satan.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?


Yes, and he didn't heal all tho he could have had the power to heal all the world...but for the purpose of what he came to do he did what he had to.


What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?


I think man has no power over Satan like ant vs man...but in Christ we do.......Not Gods approval but permission ...like in the book of Job...

Another point I would make as well is that Job did not resist Satan.

God removed the hedge and Job had prayed for the hedge around his family daily. That sounds like resistance to me. But I get what your saying. Also, when God spoke about Leviathan, didn't he tell Job that he was not someone to trifle with?

Yes, and he didn't heal all tho he could have had the power to heal all the world...but for the purpose of what he came to do he did what he had to.

So, Jesus was rebuking unclean spirits that His Father wanted to be there? Please consider what you're saying here.


I think man has no power over Satan like ant vs man...but in Christ we do.......Not Gods approval but permission ...like in the book of Job...

Why would Jesus rebuke His Father's permission?

Really?

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?

What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?

I agree with you.

If I am walking with God, submitted under his authority, and I resist the devil, and he doesn't flee from me, then it is a test that God has allowed. That's part of the lesson we learn with Job. However, your point is a good one! Much of what happens to us we allow because we break the laws of God in some way (i.e. don't resist, unbelief, don't submit to the authority of the Lord, lack of knowledge, etc.)

Job is not a valid comparison. In Job's covenant, He did not yet have authority or dominion over satan.

So, Jesus was rebuking unclean spirits that His Father wanted to be there? Please consider what you're saying here.

I do think God uses unclean spirits. Paul turned over people to Satan so that they could be taught. Matthew 18 speaks about being turned over to the tormentors if we walk in unforgiveness. God used Israel's enemies to chastise them. Why would he not use our enemies to chastise us?

Also, God would not remove the "messenger of Satan" from Paul.

God removed the hedge and Job had prayed for the hedge around his family daily. That sounds like resistance to me. But I get what your saying. Also, when God spoke about Leviathan, didn't he tell Job that he was not someone to trifle with?

Actually, Job's fear is what allowed the hedge to come down.

God removed the hedge and Job had prayed for the hedge around his family daily. That sounds like resistance to me.

What are you referencing?

Job is not a valid comparison. In Job's covenant, He did not yet have authority or dominion over satan.

The OT was written for our example. God tested Job, he tested Jesus, he tested Adam, he'll test us too.

I do think God uses unclean spirits. Paul turned over people to Satan so that they could be taught. Matthew 18 speaks about being turned over to the tormentors if we walk in unforgiveness. God used Israel's enemies to chastise them. Why would he not use our enemies to chastise us?

Also, God would not remove the "messenger of Satan" from Paul.

God did not remove it because Paul had been given the authority to deal with Satan.

What are you referencing?

Job 1:10-12
10 " Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
NASU

Satan said there was a hedge there. Why was it there?


Job 1:5
5 When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, " Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
NASU

Psalms also tells us.

Ps 34:7
7 Theangel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
NASU

Job feared God and continually prayed over his family and offered sacrifices to God for them. IMO, he prayed that hedge around them.

I do think God uses unclean spirits. Paul turned over people to Satan so that they could be taught. Matthew 18 speaks about being turned over to the tormentors if we walk in unforgiveness. God used Israel's enemies to chastise them. Why would he not use our enemies to chastise us?

Also, God would not remove the "messenger of Satan" from Paul.

I don't really think God is "using" any unclean spirits. I believe God says we need to do this or that in order to reap life, and if we do not it opens ourselves up to the enemy coming against us. We are "given over" so to speak. God is not barking orders to demons telling them to go and afflict His people.

As for Paul, it was a messenger of Satan that wasn't from God, and this spirit was used to stir up persecution against Paul.

Job 1:10-12
10 " Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
NASU

Satan said there was a hedge there. Why was it there?


Job 1:5
5 When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, " Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually.
NASU

Psalms also tells us.


Ps 34:7
7 Theangel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
NASU

I wasn't disputing the fact that there was a hedge. I'm disputing the fact that you seem to be implying that Job prayed for this hedge of protection in order to resist the devil. What are you referencing for that?

God did not remove it because Paul had been given the authority to deal with Satan.

Paul had no authority to tell the "messenger" to be gone. Because God put it there. It was there with God's blessings for Paul's benefit.

The OT was written for our example. God tested Job, he tested Jesus, he tested Adam, he'll test us too.

Job had no authority over satan.

James 1:13 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, [a] and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone

God did not remove it because Paul had been given the authority to deal with Satan.

I believe God did not remove it because it was through other people persecuting Paul. God has guaranteed us that we will experience persecution in this world. In order to remove Paul's thorn God would have had to terminate other people to do so.

Paul had no authority to tell the "messenger" to be gone. Because God put it there. It was there with God's blessings for Paul's benefit.

He had no authority because we are not given authority over people who would come against us. We are told that we will be persecuted.

Paul had no authority to tell the "messenger" to be gone. Because God put it there. It was there with God's blessings for Paul's benefit.

Paul, Just as us, was given complete authority over Satan and all his demons. The Word never says or implies that God gave Paul the demonic spirit. God sending demons to attack His Children is a pretty dangerous doctrine.

He had no authority because we are not given authority over people who would come against us. We are told that we will be persecuted.

The demon was the problem. People were merely one of the many tools the demon used.

I wasn't disputing the fact that there was a hedge. I'm disputing the fact that you seem to be implying that Job prayed for this hedge of protection in order to resist the devil. What are you referencing for that?

Paul prayed for his children continually as the verse above stated. I think that is where the hedge came from. And of course, the verse in Psalms. Also, look at Leviathan.

Job 41:8-11
8 "Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
9 " Behold, your expectation is false;
Will you be laid low even at the sight of him?
10 "No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
Who then is he that can stand before Me?
11 "Who has given to Me that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.
NASU

IMO, that's Satan. When God decides it's time for testing, then there is no way we can prevent the testing from occuring. Paul could not speak against the messenger of Satan to make it go away no matter how hard he resisted or prayed. It was put there by God.

Paul, Just as us, was given complete authority over Satan and all his demons. The Word never says or implies that God gave Paul the demonic spirit. God sending demons to attack His Children is a pretty dangerous doctrine.

Who sent the chaldians and babylonians to Israel? Who sent the enemy after the man in 1 Cor. 5? Who are the tormentors in Matthew 18?

Paul prayed for his children continually as the verse above stated. I think that is where the hedge came from. And of course, the verse in Psalms. Also, look at Leviathan.

Job 41:8-11
8 "Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
9 " Behold, your expectation is false;
Will you be laid low even at the sight of him?
10 "No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
Who then is he that can stand before Me?
11 "Who has given to Me that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.
NASU

IMO, that's Satan. When God decides it's time for testing, then there is no way we can prevent the testing from occuring. Paul could not speak against the messenger of Satan to make it go away no matter how hard he resisted or prayed. It was put there by God.

"Messenger of Satan" or "Messenger of God." Which one does the Word of God say?
What part of the New Testament do you use to build the theology on that we only have dominion and authority over SOME demons?

"Messenger of Satan" or "Messenger of God." Which one does the Word of God say?
What part of the New Testament do you use to build the theology on that we only have dominion and authority over SOME demons?

I didn't say some demons. I said it depends on what God is doing at the time. For instance, when did the man in 1 Cor. 5 become able to resist Satan and have him flee? Not until he repented! Paul wasn't able to resist the messenger from Satan and have him leave either.


2 Cor 12:7

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
KJV

Chaldeans and babylonians are not demons. I Cor 5 does not deal with God sending demons to people. It deals with the Church removing the protection from the believer in sin. The tormentors in Mat 18 are Jailers.

Actually, Job's fear is what allowed the hedge to come down.

Nah... that's teaching of man while ignoring the actual Scripture in Job that explains why the hedge came down. Word of Faith folks have made this teaching famous but they are Scripturally incorrect. ;)

This isn't such a comfortable thought for some folks... but it says what it says.

Job 2:1 *Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
2 *And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth, and walking around on it."
3 *And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
4 *And Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5 *"However, put forth Thy hand, now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse Thee to Thy face."
6 *So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

So, Jesus was rebuking unclean spirits that His Father wanted to be there? Please consider what you're saying here.



Why would Jesus rebuke His Father's permission?

Well no .. youre being too strict.... lets for a moment think this is all brought about by Satan testing Gods rule ..that is he is allowed to do his thing.. now Christ has a hand so does the Devil how they play it is up to them...he cant just snap his fingers and take us all to heaven the plan has to play out and both are allowed to make their moves..for lack of better expression.

Paul prayed for his children continually as the verse above stated. I think that is where the hedge came from. And of course, the verse in Psalms. Also, look at Leviathan.

Job 41:8-11
8 "Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
9 " Behold, your expectation is false;
Will you be laid low even at the sight of him?
10 "No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
Who then is he that can stand before Me?
11 "Who has given to Me that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.
NASU

IMO, that's Satan. When God decides it's time for testing, then there is no way we can prevent the testing from occuring. Paul could not speak against the messenger of Satan to make it go away no matter how hard he resisted or prayed. It was put there by God.


I'm just not seeing that, Brother Mark, and I really believe through this thinking you will open yourself up to attack from the enemy that you could otherwise overcome without being drug through the ringer.

Where does the word of God say that even if we are obedient the Lord will allow the enemy to afflict us for a period of time to test us? When has God's people, while walking in obedience, been turned over to the enemy for affliction?

I didn't say some demons. I said it depends on what God is doing at the time. For instance, when did the man in 1 Cor. 5 become able to resist Satan and have him flee? Not until he repented! Paul wasn't able to resist the messenger from Satan and have him leave either.


2 Cor 12:7

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
KJV

Satan sent the messenger. He dispatched it to try and stop the Work Paul was doing. The man in I Cor 5 was experiencing demonic attack because he opened the door to them.

I'm just not seeing that, Brother Mark, and I really believe through this thinking you will open yourself up to attack from the enemy that you could otherwise overcome without being drug through the ringer.

Where does the word of God say that even if we are obedient the Lord will allow the enemy to afflict us for a period of time to test us? When has God's people, while walking in obedience, been turned over to the enemy for affliction?

Job. He never sinned but God allowed it. God even said "It was without cause." But it had a purpose.

Who sent the chaldians and babylonians to Israel? Who sent the enemy after the man in 1 Cor. 5? Who are the tormentors in Matthew 18?

1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18 do not say that God sent the enemy. Matthew 18 says that the master "delivered him" to the tormentors. Big difference. In Romans 1 it says that God gives over . . .

I think the more accurate teaching is sowing and reaping. If you sow to the Spirit you will reap of God. If you sow to the flesh you will reap from the flesh.

Satan sent the messenger. He dispatched it to try and stop the Work Paul was doing. The man in I Cor 5 was experiencing demonic attack because he opened the door to them.Whoa man!!!! Not everything is a demon doing some demonic work! :lol: The guy in 1 Corinthians 5 had the same flesh problem a lot of guys had. Why do you think it was a demonic attack?

And as to satan's messenger... that doesn't have to be a demon either. Shoot... I'm rather sure there are a few that come into this forum that are that very thing. Not demons but people in the flesh.

Job. He never sinned but God allowed it. God even said "It was without cause." But it had a purpose.

Ignorance can open us up to attack just as much as disobedience, Brother Mark. And regardless of what folks think, Job learned a lot about God that he never knew before through that attack. The entire time Job was completely ignorant to the fact that Satan was coming against him. Completely and totally ignorant.

Nah... that's teaching of man while ignoring the actual Scripture in Job that explains why the hedge came down. Word of Faith folks have made this teaching famous but they are Scripturally incorrect. ;)

This isn't such a comfortable thought for some folks... but it says what it says.

Job 2:1 *Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
2 *And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth, and walking around on it."
3 *And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to ruin him without cause."
4 *And Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life.
5 *"However, put forth Thy hand, now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse Thee to Thy face."
6 *So the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life."

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 1:5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Job did not do anything to deserve to have Satan destroy him. However, he did something that allowed it. He feared exactly what came upon him.

Ignorance can open us up to attack just as much as disobedience, Brother Mark. And regardless of what folks think, Job learned a lot about God that he never knew before through that attack. The entire time Job was completely ignorant to the fact that Satan was coming against him. Completely and totally ignorant.

Of course ignorance can play a role. "My people perish for lack of knowledge." I don't buy that Job didn't know who Leviathan was. I think he is a type of the enemy.

Thing was, God put the most righteous man alive at the time, through a severe test. No doubt Job learned a lot. Job was a child of God and he was afflicted by satan through disease and God allowed it to happen and even purposefully removed the hedge knowing it would happen.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 1:5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Job did not do anything to deserve to have Satan destroy him. However, he did something that allowed it. He feared exactly what came upon him.

God said it was without cause. So why would you put a cause to it?

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

If God says it was without cause, then it's without cause.

Whoa man!!!! Not everything is a demon doing some demonic work! :lol: The guy in 1 Corinthians 5 had the same flesh problem a lot of guys had. Why do you think it was a demonic attack?

And as to satan's messenger... that doesn't have to be a demon either. Shoot... I'm rather sure there are a few that come into this forum that are that very thing. Not demons but people in the flesh.

The word translated "messenger" in this passage is usually translated angel. What is an "angelos of Satan" if not a demon?

Of course ignorance can play a roll. "My people perish for lack of knowledge." I don't buy that Job didn't know who Leviathan was. I think he is a type of the enemy.

And perhaps that's the very reason why Job went through as much as he did. It is obvious throughout the book of Job that he has no idea Satan is coming against him. Maybe you are right and he should have known; however, the entire book bears out that he did not recognize his affliction as oppression from the devil.

Why should this same situation happen to a Christian who understands who his enemy is and the tactics and trickery such an enemy will use?

I think this is a very dangerous mindset folks are presenting here. Folks are basically saying that there will be times when Satan has a complete right to come in and bring all sorts of physical disease and oppression. Why on earth does this mindset make sense in light of the resurrection power and authority of Christ working through His people?

And perhaps that's the very reason why Job went through as much as he did. It is obvious throughout the book of Job that he has no idea Satan is coming against. Maybe you are right and he should have known; however, the entire book bears out that he did not recognize his affliction as oppression from the devil.

Why should this same situation happen to a Christian who understands who his enemy is and the tactics and trickery such an enemy will use?

Because my authority comes from God. If God removes the hedge for a time of testing, then he has final say. My authority is only in Him. It's not something I can wield without his blessing and approval. When God removed the hedge, nothing Job or anyone else could do to put it back up or resist what was coming. That's why God spoke as he did about Leviathan and fighting him. Try fighting him without submitting to God in all his ways, and no one will want that fight again!

Testing is part of the character of God. He tested Adam. He tested Jesus. He tested Job. When the world became cursed, I think there were things that became part of testing that God didn't want to be a part of it... like death, disease, etc. But testing and trials are going to occur.

Also, when we are in disobedience, the enemy has open season on us. But I know we are in agreement on that. Sometimes, people are oppressed because they don't know, sometimes they are oppressed because of sin, sometimes it's a stronghold, but sometimes, it's a test. That's all I am saying. We can deal with all of them and overcome all of them.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 1:5
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Job did not do anything to deserve to have Satan destroy him. However, he did something that allowed it. He feared exactly what came upon him.Did you read the text in Job? Nowhere does it say... Job feared so now I've gotta let the devil at him! It said clearly... without cause. Saying it is fear that caused it is absolutely 1000000000000 percent contrary to Scripture. Surely you don't want to be contrary to Scripture do you?

Also, when we are in disobedience, the enemy has open season on us. But I know we are in agreement on that. Sometimes, people are oppressed because they don't know, sometimes they are oppressed because of sin, sometimes it's a stronghold, but sometimes, it's a test. That's all I am saying. We can deal with all of them and overcome all of them.

I don't believe God is going to give us a test that we cannot rely on Him to overcome. I do not believe God is going to give the devil a right away to come into His child's life and bring disease and destruction. The enemy comes not but to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. I believe such a concept is OT theology that diminishes the work of Christ.

The word translated "messenger" in this passage is usually translated angel. What is an "angelos of Satan" if not a demon?

Could as well simple be a man. Well could have been speaking of Alexander the Coppersmith at this point in his life.

I think this is a very dangerous mindset folks are presenting here. Folks are basically saying that there will be times when Satan has a complete right to come in and bring all sorts of physical disease and oppression. Why on earth does this mindset make sense in light of the resurrection power and authority of Christ working through His people?

Why did God say that He allowed satan to do what he did to Job? It's not dangerous doctrine at all if it is answered in Scripture. There was no cause... as I said... I know it ain't comfortable perhaps... but isn't that in fact what it says?

I don't believe God is going to give us a test that we cannot rely on Him to overcome. I do not believe God is going to give the devil a right away to come into His child's life and bring disease and destruction. The enemy comes not but to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. I believe such a concept is OT theology that diminishes the work of Christ.

Job overcame. And Job saw some of Christ when he said "I know my Redeemer lives". God did what he did for a purpose and he made sure it got written about in the word for us to see and understand.

God said it was without cause. So why would you put a cause to it?

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU



If God says it was without cause, then it's without cause.

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil."

9 Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven't You placed a hedge around (G) him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are spread out in the land. 11 But stretch out Your hand and strike (H) everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face."

Job feared the loss of His possessions. Job had committed no sin, but his fear of his loss of his possessions gave Satan the right to demand to test him in that area.

Why did God say that He allowed satan to do what he did to Job? It's not dangerous doctrine at all if it is answered in Scripture. There was no cause... as I said... I know it ain't comfortable perhaps... but isn't that in fact what it says?

I'm not arguing that there was a cause.

I don't believe God is going to give us a test that we cannot rely on Him to overcome. I do not believe God is going to give the devil a right away to come into His child's life and bring disease and destruction. The enemy comes not but to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly. I believe such a concept is OT theology that diminishes the work of Christ.

We can overcome any and every test if we keep our eye and focus on Christ. Keep in mind though... overcome doesn't mean coming out smelling like a rose. It well could mean overcoming even to death but giving us the power to face that death and hold firm to our faith.

As to God allowing death to come into our families life etc... how does that diminish the work of Christ?

Why did God say that He allowed satan to do what he did to Job? It's not dangerous doctrine at all if it is answered in Scripture. There was no cause... as I said... I know it ain't comfortable perhaps... but isn't that in fact what it says?

Job had no sin that caused this, but his fear allowed Satan to demand to test him in this area. Job was committing no sin, but this was an area where Satan thought Job would sin if he were allowed to take these things away.

Job overcame. And Job saw some of Christ when he said "I know my Redeemer lives". God did what he did for a purpose and he made sure it got written about in the word for us to see and understand.

Job overcame after being busted in the chops repeatedly. Why can we not overcome in a greater way in light of what we now know and understand? You agreed earlier that a lack of knowledge brings destruction. Well, in the light of Christ, do we not now have the capability to overcome these sort of attacks? That is why I think you are proposing OT theology. There was a great work accomplished through Christ, and we do not have to succumb to these type things from our enemy.

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil."

9 Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven't You placed a hedge around (G) him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are spread out in the land. 11 But stretch out Your hand and strike (H) everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face."

Job feared the loss of His possessions. Job had committed no sin, but his fear of his loss of his possessions gave Satan the right to demand to test him in that area.

God said it was done without cause. He didn't say it was because of fear. No scripture says it was because of fear and God specifically said it was without cause. Scripture records that Job had fear. But no where does it say that was the cause. God even comes against that very thought when he said "it was without cause".

Job was such a great man, that God pointed him out to Satan. This wasn't Satan going to God and demanding to sift Job as he did Peter. It was God pointing out Job to Satan.

I'll stick with what God said on this one...Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil."

9 Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven't You placed a hedge around (G) him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are spread out in the land. 11 But stretch out Your hand and strike (H) everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face."

Job feared the loss of His possessions. Job had committed no sin, but his fear of his loss of his possessions gave Satan the right to demand to test him in that area.

Where do you get that Job feared the loss of his possessions? Him fearing for his kids and how they lived... okay. That's natural and Paul feared for the church in Galatia the same way. There is no sin in that nor does any such fear open up a door to satan. Goodness... what does the passage say? WITHOUT CAUSE means.... what?

Also... here's another perhaps uncomfortable thought for you and all... but satan isn't the one that brought Job up because he knew the futility of trying to get around that hedge. He even said in todays language... why bother? It was then that he tossed out the "challenge" (for lack of a better way to say it) and God said.... okie dokie. That is what it says you know?

As to God allowing death to come into our families life etc... how does that diminish the work of Christ?

I'm not speaking in the sense of martyrdom. I'm speaking in the sense of allowing the devil to come in and steal, kill and destroy through deception.

Job overcame after being busted in the chops repeatedly. Why can we not overcome in a greater way in light of what we now know and understand? You agreed earlier that a lack of knowledge brings destruction. Well, in the light of Christ, do we not now have the capability to overcome these sort of attacks? That is why I think you are proposing OT theology. There was a great work accomplished through Christ, and we do not have to succumb to these type things from our enemy.Sure... unless God ordains it so. If that happens then you can stopthehondaandtiemybowtie all day long and until you pass the test... the devil and or his boys aren't going to go anywhere. And yes... Paul's buffet was a very good NT example of that doctrine. ;)

Job overcame after being busted in the chops repeatedly. Why can we not overcome in a greater way in light of what we now know and understand? You agreed earlier that a lack of knowledge brings destruction. Well, in the light of Christ, do we not now have the capability to overcome these sort of attacks? That is why I think you are proposing OT theology. There was a great work accomplished through Christ, and we do not have to succumb to these type things from our enemy.

Corey, we won't agree on this. I've seen hurt come from saying "all you have to do is believe" when people did believe. It's dangerous to say we can go against the authority of God when we can't do that. If God orders the hedge down, then the hedge is down and no amount of rebuking will put it back up. Now, I will agree to this, God will pull the hedge down to teach us how to fight. No doubt on that. He will stand there with us and say "rebuke this" and such. But there may come a time, when we go through hell on earth because the hedge was dropped. It is then that we must purpose in our hearts that "though he slay me, yet will I trust him".

God said it was done without cause. He didn't say it was because of fear. No scripture says it was because of fear and God specifically said it was without cause. Scripture records that Job had fear. But no where does it say that was the cause. God even comes against that very thought when he said "it was without cause".

Job was such a great man, that God pointed him out to Satan. This wasn't Satan going to God and demanding to sift Job as he did Peter. It was God pointing out Job to Satan.

I'll stick with what God said on this one...Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

God pointed Job out to Satan and Satan immediately identified the area that we later see Job had great fear in. Wonder how that happened?
God said Job was without sin. That does not mean that Satan did not have the right to test Job in the area where there was weakness. Job had given no "cause" for him to be ruined, but Satan believed that Job would fold in this area.

I'm not speaking in the sense of martyrdom. I'm speaking in the sense of allowing the devil to come in and steal, kill and destroy through deception.

Doesn't have to be deception. Wasn't deception with Job either. Just a straight up frontal attack. Same with Paul. He knew it was there... knew where it was coming from. God made it clear to Paul though... my grace is enough bubba... carry on.

Sure... unless God ordains it so. If that happens then you can stopthehondaandtiemybowtie all day long and until you pass the test... the devil and or his boys aren't going to go anywhere. And yes... Paul's buffet was a very good NT example of that doctrine. ;)

But again, I think we're talking two different things. I agree we will experience persecution. I agree we could experience death for His name's sake.

This thread is addressing the oppression of the devil that our Lord came to heal folks of as written in Acts 10:38.

Corey, we won't agree on this. I've seen hurt come from saying "all you have to do is believe" when people did believe. It's dangerous to say we can go against the authority of God when we can't do that. If God orders the hedge down, then the hedge is down and no amount of rebuking will put it back up. Now, I will agree to this, God will pull the hedge down to teach us how to fight. No doubt on that. He will stand there with us and say "rebuke this" and such. But there may come a time, when we go through hell on earth because the hedge was dropped. It is then that we must purpose in our hearts that "though he slay me, yet will I trust him".

Job had no authority over the demonic. We as believers have authority over the demonic. We do not rely on a "hedge." We rely on the weapons of our spiritual warfare. Remember the Armor of God that we are given?

God pointed Job out to Satan and Satan immediately identified the area that we later see Job had great fear in. Wonder how that happened?
God said Job was without sin. That does not mean that Satan did not have the right to test Job in the area where there was weakness. Job had given no "cause" for him to be ruined, but Satan believed that Job would fold in this area.

Again... Pigs In The Parlor type stuff and ignoring the passage in the second chapter. WITHOUT CAUSE means what?

Job had given no "cause" for him to be ruined, but Satan believed that Job would fold in this area.

Right. There was no cause. Not even fear. That's the point. Peter was sifted and Satan demanded it because he had a right. He had no right to Job. God said it was "without cause". There was no reason the hedge had to come down. God was making a point to Satan. The point ... "Here is a man that will fear and love me just because of who I am. You can take away everything in his life and he will still fear and love me. He fears/loves me for nothing." That is a man of great character.

If fear was the cause for the hedge to go down, God would not have said "no cause".

Corey, we won't agree on this. I've seen hurt come from saying "all you have to do is believe" when people did believe. It's dangerous to say we can go against the authority of God when we can't do that. If God orders the hedge down, then the hedge is down and no amount of rebuking will put it back up. Now, I will agree to this, God will pull the hedge down to teach us how to fight. No doubt on that. He will stand there with us and say "rebuke this" and such. But there may come a time, when we go through hell on earth because the hedge was dropped. It is then that we must purpose in our hearts that "though he slay me, yet will I trust him".

Doesn't help to believe if you're believing the wrong thing. That is why his people perish for a lack of knowledge. People like to say what you don't know won't hurt you. Yeah, right. What you don't know will certainly kill you.

Who is our hedge, Brother Mark? Is the armor of God sometimes just not available to us? Is that what you're saying? It sounds like you're saying that at times we are just not going to have any protection from the devil. Is that really the doctrine you're putting forth? Again, that is OT theology. The armor of God is intended to defend and protect us from the devil, and there is no scriptures saying there will be times when that armor is not there for our use.

Right. There was no cause. Not even fear. That's the point. Peter was sifted and Satan demanded it because he had a right.

How was Peter sifted? Persecution.

for this lif
But again, I think we're talking two different things. I agree we will experience persecution. I agree we could experience death for His name's sake.

This thread is addressing the oppression of the devil that our Lord came to heal folks of as written in Acts 10:38.

I'm speaking of the devil and not death. The thing that Paul dealt with was certainly from satan. He couldn't be any more clear on that point... right? He wanted it gone. Prayed it gone. God said No Paul... it stays. My grace is enough. It stayed. Be it man... demon... or whatever. It was satan's way to constantly rag Paul and try and drag him down. Enough so that Paul asked more than once to get this mess gone Lord!

And as to Acts 10:38... you have to go under the assumption that every thing said means that it is automatically going to happen and that's it. That's not how it works though. Not all will see the promises for this lifetime... eternal ones are better and they won't ever fail.... Hebrews 11 points that out clearly as well.

for this lif

I'm speaking of the devil and not death. The thing that Paul dealt with was certainly from satan. He couldn't be any more clear on that point... right? He wanted it gone. Prayed it gone. God said No Paul... it stays. My grace is enough. It stayed. Be it man... demon... or whatever. It was satan's way to constantly rag Paul and try and drag him down. Enough so that Paul asked more than once to get this mess gone Lord!

And as to Acts 10:38... you have to go under the assumption that every thing said means that it is automatically going to happen and that's it. That's not how it works though. Not all will see the promises for this lifetime... eternal ones are better and they won't ever fail.... Hebrews 11 points that out clearly as well.

And what I'm proposing here is that it is still two different things we are discussing. What Paul asked for deliverance from was not the oppression Jesus healed people of in Acts 10:38.

Doesn't help to believe if you're believing the wrong thing. That is why his people perish for a lack of knowledge. People like to say what you don't know won't hurt you. Yeah, right. What you don't know will certainly kill you.

No doubt. Believe wrong and pay the consequences. For sure.


Who is our hedge, Brother Mark? Is the armor of God sometimes just not available to us? Is that what you're saying? It sounds like you're saying that at times we are just not going to have any protection from the devil. Is that really the doctrine you're putting forth? Again, that is OT theology. The armor of God is intended to defend and protect us from the devil, and there is no scriptures saying there will be times when that armor is not there for our use.

Job had protection from the devil. But the protection was limited. I love the song "it is well with my soul". That man lost his children. The hedge came down. When he got to the spot they were lost, he wrote the song. The hedge can still be removed, IMO, for times of testing. Peter refered to those times as firey trials.

Job had protection from the devil. But the protection was limited. I love the song "it is well with my soul". That man lost his children. The hedge came down. When he got to the spot they were lost, he wrote the song. The hedge can still be removed, IMO, for times of testing. Peter refered to those times as firey trials.

Again, though . . . that's OT. Where does it state that the armor of God provided through the light of the gospel will sometimes not be available to us?

Anyway, good discussion so far. I'll pick this back up with you fellers tomorrow. I need some sleep.

Doesn't help to believe if you're believing the wrong thing. That is why his people perish for a lack of knowledge. People like to say what you don't know won't hurt you. Yeah, right. What you don't know will certainly kill you.

Who is our hedge, Brother Mark? Is the armor of God sometimes just not available to us? Is that what you're saying? It sounds like you're saying that at times we are just not going to have any protection from the devil. Is that really the doctrine you're putting forth? Again, that is OT theology. The armor of God is intended to defend and protect us from the devil, and there is no scriptures saying there will be times when that armor is not there for our use.

How did the apostles die? I mean seriously... you are trying to make a difference between man and the devil... persecution from man and persecution from the devil... but if they are of this world are they not children of satan thus his tools for whatever purpose? Even tares among wheat are the devils pals to do his work within the field. People... yes. Used by satan... better know it. Yet the armor didn't stop their death nor did it stop the buffeting that Paul took from that messenger of satan. If you don't already know what buffeting means... look that up. Paul chose that word to describe what it was like. ;)

Again... Pigs In The Parlor type stuff and ignoring the passage in the second chapter. WITHOUT CAUSE means what?

The passage in the first and second chapters are identical. God had no cause to "destroy Job." Job's fear gave Satan the opportunity to demand to test him in this area.
Ever wonder why Satan wanted to test Job in the areas Job feared? Just a little too odd to be a coincidence.

Again, though . . . that's OT. Where does it state that the armor of God provided through the light of the gospel will sometimes not be available to us?

I can't throw out half the word VR. Peter talked about a firey trial. Paul had a messenger of Satan that he couldn't get rid of. Timothy had a stomach ailment that wasn't healed. Etc., etc., etc. There's testing in both the new and the old.

And what I'm proposing here is that it is still two different things we are discussing. What Paul asked for deliverance from was not the oppression Jesus healed people of in Acts 10:38.
Jesus healed some people. Not everyone. That's an important fact.

How did the apostles die? I mean seriously... you are trying to make a difference between man and the devil... persecution from man and persecution from the devil... but if they are of this world are they not children of satan thus his tools for whatever purpose? Even tares among wheat are the devils pals to do his work within the field. People... yes. Used by satan... better know it. Yet the armor didn't stop their death nor did it stop the buffeting that Paul took from that messenger of satan. If you don't already know what buffeting means... look that up. Paul chose that word to describe what it was like. ;)

Attacks of men. Paul was experiencing attacks of men for the sake of forwarding The Gospel.

The passage in the first and second chapters are identical. God had no cause to "destroy Job." Job's fear gave Satan the opportunity to demand to test him in this area.
Ever wonder why Satan wanted to test Job in the areas Job feared? Just a little too odd to be a coincidence.
No need to wonder. It was without cause. If the kids were living wrong... the devil knew. They were his. If the devil knew the wife was a nag and left her to nag... there ya go. But the reason... without cause.

Attacks of men. Paul was experiencing attacks of men for the sake of forwarding The Gospel.

And who was those men's daddy spiritually speaking?

Really?

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?

What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?I, for one, do not insist that. Do rapists, murderers, child molesters, etc. also have His "approval"? Ridiculous.

Thank you for reminding us all of Acts 10:38. Very good point, VerticalReality.

I glanced through the thread and I see the whole "Job argument" has been brought up. The prologue of the book of Job tells us why this whole thing happened. Satan assaults God's wisdom and character in running the universe when he asks, “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan insinuates that people would not fear God if God did not bless them—that their obedience isn’t really free choice. This assault could only be refuted by being put to a test. That’s why this test took place at all. This was a one-time thing and is not an example of how God deals with Satan and humans all the time.

I glanced through the thread and I see the whole "Job argument" has been brought up. The prologue of the book of Job tells us why this whole thing happened. Satan assaults God's wisdom and character in running the universe when he asks, “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan insinuates that people would not fear God if God did not bless them—that their obedience isn’t really free choice. This assault could only be refuted by being put to a test. That’s why this test took place at all. This was a one-time thing and is not an example of how God deals with Satan and humans all the time.

I agree in part... but you're not going to be able to show it as a "one time thing." That's merely assumption based on certain doctrine. :)

I agree in part... but you're not going to be able to show it as a "one time thing." That's merely assumption based on certain doctrine. :)What doctrine? It's not a one-time thing that God will put man to the same test that he already passed? Job, representing man who fears God, continued to fear God even after all his blessings were taken away. Why would God require man to keep taking the same test he already passed? And why assume that every time someone suffers, God is putting them through a test? We should not jump to the conclusion that since Job went through a test (to prove something about God), that all people will be put through similar tests. As a matter of fact, VerticalReality’s point with Acts 10:38 not only shows we shouldn’t assume that but that it’s an entirely wrong conclusion.

What doctrine? It's not a one-time thing that God will put man to the same test that he already passed? Job, representing man who fears God, continued to fear God even after all his blessings were taken away. Why would God require man to keep taking the same test he already passed? And why assume that every time someone suffers, God is putting them through a test? We should not jump to the conclusion that since Job went through a test (to prove something about God), that all people will be put through similar tests. As a matter of fact, VerticalReality’s point with Acts 10:38 not only shows we shouldn’t assume that but that it’s an entirely wrong conclusion.Ever read about Abraham? He was tested more than once... even to the point of taking the youngun up a mountain to be sacrificed. As to people all being put to a similar test... I don't think Mark is saying any such as that and I know I wasn't. The point isn't that folks will have to go through the exact same test... but the fact that it well may be a test that folks have to go through. And it doesn't always have to have a reason attached to it or a sin etc. The use of Job as an example is just that. An example... same as with Paul. Doesn't mean God's going to say... see my servant Bucky... Darlene... June... and Bob and go down the list. The point is that you just might go through that test... nothing says you won't. Perhaps a different test for a different reason. He's God... we're not. If God wants to test us... He can, will and does. All the rebuking in the world ain't going to make that test go away until God says enough.

Ever read about Abraham? He was tested more than once... even to the point of taking the youngun up a mountain to be sacrificed. As to people all being put to a similar test... I don't think Mark is saying any such as that and I know I wasn't. The point isn't that folks will have to go through the exact same test... but the fact that it well may be a test that folks have to go through. And it doesn't always have to have a reason attached to it or a sin etc. The use of Job as an example is just that. An example... same as with Paul. Doesn't mean God's going to say... see my servant Bucky... Darlene... June... and Bob and go down the list. The point is that you just might go through that test... nothing says you won't. Perhaps a different test for a different reason. He's God... we're not. If God wants to test us... He can, will and does. All the rebuking in the world ain't going to make that test go away until God says enough.My issue isn’t the test. If God tests or disciplines His child, it is certain it will be for the child’s good. My issue is when people use the book of Job to try to argue that all suffering is for some “mysterious” divine purpose. That’s rubbish. My best friend’s three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn’t for her own good or for some divine purpose. This horrifying, senseless garbage happens because people choose to do evil things. Period.

To be my normal completely crass and heartless self, please prove to me that your best friend's three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn't for some divine purpose.

I understand the thought, but I believe it is impossible for us to see divine purpose. God does not cause evil, but he does permit it and he also uses it in spite of the evil for good.

Really?

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?

What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?

Shouldn't we make a distinction between what God allows and what he approves? God allowed Adam to eat of the Tree; it doesn't mean he approved of it. God allows me to sin, it doesn't mean he approves of it.

To be my normal completely crass and heartless self, please prove to me that your best friend's three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn't for some divine purpose.

I understand the thought, but I believe it is impossible for us to see divine purpose. God does not cause evil, but he does permit it and he also uses it in spite of the evil for good.


To the outside and in here too what you've said may sound cold, but I agree with what you have said. It's unfortunate when we try so desparately to understand God's ways....we will fail miserably every single time.

Really?

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

So, Jesus was basically just going about healing people of things that were allowed by His Father?

What about mankind? Can mankind not allow Satan to bring stuff? Why do we insist that all things brought by the devil had God's approval first?

If the devil, or anyone, or anything else operates outside of the sovereignty of God - God is not God! There is not, and cannot be, one single random atom in the universe outside of God's direct or indirect control. That is what MAKES GOD SOVEREIGN. If God is not in absolute control of everything then there can be no assurance that His promises are true, regarding salvation or anything else.

The passage in the first and second chapters are identical. God had no cause to "destroy Job." Job's fear gave Satan the opportunity to demand to test him in this area.
Ever wonder why Satan wanted to test Job in the areas Job feared? Just a little too odd to be a coincidence.Forgive me if I need a refresher on Job, but are you not putting forth essentially the same argument that Job's friends were using before God rebuked them? Were they not saying that there HAD to be something that Job was doing wrong for this to happen to him?

No need to wonder. It was without cause. If the kids were living wrong... the devil knew. They were his. If the devil knew the wife was a nag and left her to nag... there ya go. But the reason... without cause.

There is a cause. The cause simply was not a sin being committed by Job. Was fear and doubt a sin in the covenant Job had with God? We have no details about his covenant, but obviously it was not. Fear and doubt were an area that allowed Satan an inroad to Job. Did Job sin or was Job to blame? No. Were Job's actions the cause of his trouble? Indirectly, Yes.

If the devil, or anyone, or anything else operates outside of the sovereignty of God - God is not God! There is not, and cannot be, one single random atom in the universe outside of God's direct or indirect control. That is what MAKES GOD SOVEREIGN. If God is not in absolute control of everything then there can be no assurance that His promises are true, regarding salvation or anything else.
What you are failing to take into account is that in giving man free will, God willing chose to not control much of what is going on. He has the power, but He gave man the authority. God will not violate the free will of man.

Forgive me if I need a refresher on Job, but are you not putting forth essentially the same argument that Job's friends were using before God rebuked them? Were they not saying that there HAD to be something that Job was doing wrong for this to happen to him?

No. I am not. Post 91 addresses this.

There is a cause. The cause simply was not a sin being committed by Job. Was fear and doubt a sin in the covenant Job had with God? We have no details about his covenant, but obviously it was not. Fear and doubt were an area that allowed Satan an inroad to Job. Did Job sin or was Job to blame? No. Were Job's actions the cause of his trouble? Indirectly, Yes.

For those late to the thread... I'll stick with what the Lord God himself said about "cause".

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

God says there was no cause, therefore, there was no cause. It had a purpose. But it didn't have a cause.

My issue isn’t the test. If God tests or disciplines His child, it is certain it will be for the child’s good. My issue is when people use the book of Job to try to argue that all suffering is for some “mysterious” divine purpose. That’s rubbish. My best friend’s three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn’t for her own good or for some divine purpose. This horrifying, senseless garbage happens because people choose to do evil things. Period.

No! That was God trying to teach her family a lesson. God murders little children to bring their parents closer to Him.

That is a bunch of garbage, but that is what many people believe.

We lost a child during pregnancy. Satan took that child. I am going to be 100% honest with yall. If I believed God did it, I would have no use for Him. God does not kill children to bring the parents closes to Him. He is not an abusive tyrant, but a loving Father.

My issue isn’t the test. If God tests or disciplines His child, it is certain it will be for the child’s good. My issue is when people use the book of Job to try to argue that all suffering is for some “mysterious” divine purpose. That’s rubbish. My best friend’s three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn’t for her own good or for some divine purpose. This horrifying, senseless garbage happens because people choose to do evil things. Period.I would say that you are correct. Evil happens in this, an evil world. However, God uses these tragedies for ultimate good for those who love Him in Christ (Romans 8:28).

As to the larger point of this thread, I would assume your best friend's family are followers of Christ, living under His Grace and guidance. How would this have happened? I assume that Vertical would argue that the family allowed a "chink in the Armor" of Christ? Or, is the argument that this is an attack of Men and not an attack of the principalities of darkness which we are afforded protection from by the Armor of Christ? Please let me know if I need to delete this post because you don't want to tread on this particular topic.

Ever read about Abraham? He was tested more than once... even to the point of taking the youngun up a mountain to be sacrificed. As to people all being put to a similar test... I don't think Mark is saying any such as that and I know I wasn't. The point isn't that folks will have to go through the exact same test... but the fact that it well may be a test that folks have to go through. And it doesn't always have to have a reason attached to it or a sin etc. The use of Job as an example is just that. An example... same as with Paul. Doesn't mean God's going to say... see my servant Bucky... Darlene... June... and Bob and go down the list. The point is that you just might go through that test... nothing says you won't. Perhaps a different test for a different reason. He's God... we're not. If God wants to test us... He can, will and does. All the rebuking in the world ain't going to make that test go away until God says enough.

Pretty much sums it up really well. This is exactly what I was trying to communicate and it's worth a repost. Thanks!

For those late to the thread... I'll stick with what the Lord God himself said about "cause".

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."
NASU

God says there was no cause, therefore, there was no cause. It had a purpose. But it didn't have a cause.

God had no cause to "ruin" Job. However, Satan had an inroad to attempt to do so. You are ignoring the fact that Satan entered in the exact location Job "greatly feared." Job had not sinned. God pointed Job out to Satan as upright and blameless. To do this, God removed the hedge for Satan to see Job. In that process, Satan saw what he perceived to be an area of weakness and demanded to be allowed to exploit this new seen weakness.

That is plainly what scripture says if you read the whole book and not a couple of verses.

Answer this question for me. Job was upright and blameless. God had "no cause to ruin" Job. Why in the world would God sick Satan on Job to ravage his life if Job was upright and blameless? Job needed to learn no lesson. He was God's best man on the Earth. What was God trying to teach him if there was no area in his life that needed fixed.

God pulled down the hedge. Satan saw a perceived weakness. Satan demanded to attempt to exploit what he saw to be a weakness.

God had no cause to "ruin" Job. However, Satan had an inroad to attempt to do so. You are ignoring the fact that Satan entered in the exact location Job "greatly feared." Job had not sinned. God pointed Job out to Satan as upright and blameless. To do this, God removed the hedge for Satan to see Job. In that process, Satan saw what he perceived to be an area of weakness and demanded to be allowed to exploit this new seen weakness.

That is plainly what scripture says if you read the whole book and not a couple of verses.

Answer this question for me. Job was upright and blameless. God had "no cause to ruin" Job. Why in the world would God sick Satan on Job to ravage his life if Job was upright and blameless? Job needed to learn no lesson. He was God's best man on the Earth. What was God trying to teach him if there was no area in his life that needed fixed.

God pulled down the hedge. Satan saw a perceived weakness. Satan demanded to attempt to exploit what he saw to be a weakness.

If the hedge is down, and Satan wants to hurt a man the most, he goes to what that man fears the most. But the fear didn't bring the hedge down. God brought it down to test Job and to prove for all eternity, to all creation, that man could love and fear God for nothing. Job answered the question "Does Job fear God for nothing?" with a resounding YES!

Like God said, and it bears repeating, there was no cause for the ruin. None. Zip. There was no opening created by Job. None, Nada, Zippo.


Job 1:7-11
7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
NASU

and

Job 2:2-5
2 The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." 4 Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
NASU

The great question is answered "Will man fear God for nothing". It is a great truth that God has a man, whom God has changed and matured, will indeed serve, fear and love God with or without blessings on this earth. As Job said "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."

God had no cause to "ruin" Job. However, Satan had an inroad to attempt to do so. You are ignoring the fact that Satan entered in the exact location Job "greatly feared." Job had not sinned. God pointed Job out to Satan as upright and blameless. To do this, God removed the hedge for Satan to see Job. In that process, Satan saw what he perceived to be an area of weakness and demanded to be allowed to exploit this new seen weakness.

That is plainly what scripture says if you read the whole book and not a couple of verses.

Answer this question for me. Job was upright and blameless. God had "no cause to ruin" Job. Why in the world would God sick Satan on Job to ravage his life if Job was upright and blameless? Job needed to learn no lesson. He was God's best man on the Earth. What was God trying to teach him if there was no area in his life that needed fixed.

God pulled down the hedge. Satan saw a perceived weakness. Satan demanded to attempt to exploit what he saw to be a weakness.Reynolds, are you saying that Job's fear brought down the hedge or that his fear was simply an area that Satan attacked in order to maximize what he was trying to accomplish? I may have missed where you clarified that.

My issue isn’t the test. If God tests or disciplines His child, it is certain it will be for the child’s good. My issue is when people use the book of Job to try to argue that all suffering is for some “mysterious” divine purpose. That’s rubbish. My best friend’s three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn’t for her own good or for some divine purpose. This horrifying, senseless garbage happens because people choose to do evil things. Period.Uh... apparently you are reading into what's being said if you think that's what Mark or I am doing here. It has nothing to do with it being the cause of all suffering... just that is can be a cause.

There is a cause. The cause simply was not a sin being committed by Job. Was fear and doubt a sin in the covenant Job had with God? We have no details about his covenant, but obviously it was not. Fear and doubt were an area that allowed Satan an inroad to Job. Did Job sin or was Job to blame? No. Were Job's actions the cause of his trouble? Indirectly, Yes.

Uh... what does WITHOUT CAUSE mean? You keep saying there was a cause but God differs with you. Be careful holding on to that man teaching while discounting what was clearly said. That leads you into all sorts of error!

God had no cause to "ruin" Job. However, Satan had an inroad to attempt to do so. You are ignoring the fact that Satan entered in the exact location Job "greatly feared." Job had not sinned. God pointed Job out to Satan as upright and blameless. To do this, God removed the hedge for Satan to see Job. In that process, Satan saw what he perceived to be an area of weakness and demanded to be allowed to exploit this new seen weakness.

That is plainly what scripture says if you read the whole book and not a couple of verses.

Answer this question for me. Job was upright and blameless. God had "no cause to ruin" Job. Why in the world would God sick Satan on Job to ravage his life if Job was upright and blameless? Job needed to learn no lesson. He was God's best man on the Earth. What was God trying to teach him if there was no area in his life that needed fixed.

God pulled down the hedge. Satan saw a perceived weakness. Satan demanded to attempt to exploit what he saw to be a weakness.

You're ultimately reaching now to try and keep this teaching of man Reynolds. Give it up man! Without cause is without cause. :lol:

1 Cor 10:13 God when we are tempted or tested will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to withstand. God will make a way for us to escape that we may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 12 is interesting in the context of this discussion. vs 8 but if ye be without chastisement of which we are all partakers then ye are bastards and not sons.

God is in the chastising and scourging. He does this because He loves us. Heb 12:3-11 do not indicate that we must sin to receive chastisement or scourging only be partakers with Christ.

Even fine gold is made more precious by additional refining and burning off of remaining dross.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If the hedge is down, and Satan wants to hurt a man the most, he goes to what that man fears the most. But the fear didn't bring the hedge down. God brought it down to test Job and to prove for all eternity, to all creation, that man could love and fear God for nothing. Job answered the question "Does Job fear God for nothing?" with a resounding YES!

Like God said, and it bears repeating, there was no cause for the ruin. None. Zip. There was no opening created by Job. None, Nada, Zippo.


Job 1:7-11
7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
NASU

and

Job 2:2-5
2 The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." 4 Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
NASU

The great question is answered "Will man fear God for nothing". It is a great truth that God has a man, whom God has changed and matured, will indeed serve, fear and love God with or without blessings on this earth. As Job said "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."

Had Job had no area of weakness, then the pulling down of the hedge would have meant nothing. The fact still goes back to Satan attacked Job in his weakness.

Reynolds, are you saying that Job's fear brought down the hedge or that his fear was simply an area that Satan attacked in order to maximize what he was trying to accomplish? I may have missed where you clarified that.

I am saying neither. I am saying that God brought down the hedge to show Satan how upright and righteous Job was. While the hedge was down for this purpose, and this purpose alone, Satan spotted an area he disagreed with God about and demanded right to challenge Job in this area and attempt to refute what God had said about Job.

And by what right does Satan purport to demand any right to do anything?

Uh... what does WITHOUT CAUSE mean? You keep saying there was a cause but God differs with you. Be careful holding on to that man teaching while discounting what was clearly said. That leads you into all sorts of error!

Without being disrespectful, I think the problem lies in the fact you are reading what you want to read in the passage in question. God said He had no cause to ravage Job. He did not ravage Job. During the time Satan was allowed to see Job, Satan spotted an area in Job's life that he thought would give him an inroad and cause Job to curse God if he were allowed to exploit it. Had Job not feared, when God showed Satan Job, Satan would have said "yep, you are right; lets move on to the next one I am not wasting my time on him." Satan saw an area that he thought would allow him to defeat Job, and God gave him the permission to exploit this area and see if he could succeed.

And by what right does Satan purport to demand any right to do anything?

That is exactly what he did. God said Job is such and such. Satan said Prove it.

But Satan did not have any "right" to do so. It was God's choice to permit Satan to attack Job.

I don't see anything in the text to support your theory that "Satan saw something in Job" to attack.

Just don't see it. If you can show me something in the text, I'd be happy to look at it.

1 Cor 10:13 God when we are tempted or tested will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able to withstand. God will make a way for us to escape that we may be able to bear it.

Hebrews 12 is interesting in the context of this discussion. vs 8 but if ye be without chastisement of which we are all partakers then ye are bastards and not sons.

God is in the chastising and scourging. He does this because He loves us. Heb 12:3-11 do not indicate that we must sin to receive chastisement or scourging only be partakers with Christ.

Even fine gold is made more precious by additional refining and burning off of remaining dross.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Word also says "let no man who is tempted say I am tempted by God for...God tempts no man."

Why are you chastised and scourged? Because you are doing wrong. Do you beat your kids just to beat on them and make them stronger? Chastisement and scourging is to correct sin. God was plain that there were no areas in Job's life that needed corrected. I can just see me tellng my son "come here boy. You aint done nothing wrong, but I am going to beat the hell out of you just to make you stronger. I will not kill you, but I will beat you within an inch of your life. I have no reason for doing it, but it will make you stronger. And by the way, I am doing it because I love you."

But Satan did not have any "right" to do so. It was God's choice to permit Satan to attack Job.

I don't see anything in the text to support your theory that "Satan saw something in Job" to attack.

Just don't see it. If you can show me something in the text, I'd be happy to look at it.

I have already posted it. Job said "What I have feared the most has come upon me."

And you believe somehow that that statement is indicative of giving Satan a right to demand redress?

Seriously?

Without being disrespectful, I think the problem lies in the fact you are reading what you want to read in the passage in question. God said He had no cause to ravage Job. He did not ravage Job. During the time Satan was allowed to see Job, Satan spotted an area in Job's life that he thought would give him an inroad and cause Job to curse God if he were allowed to exploit it. Had Job not feared, when God showed Satan Job, Satan would have said "yep, you are right; lets move on to the next one I am not wasting my time on him." Satan saw an area that he thought would allow him to defeat Job, and God gave him the permission to exploit this area and see if he could succeed.Uh... Satan did say "why bother." God was the one that took the hedge down and if it was to "test Job" as you say for God... Then there was CAUSE. It would have said you incited me to test Job's weakness... what it does say is WITHOUT CAUSE. Without cause is a simple statement. It means "for no reason"... right?

I have already posted it. Job said "What I have feared the most has come upon me."

How does that establish what you are saying? That's simply Job saying... was worried about those younguns and now look... this is why I was worried.

What you are failing to take into account is that in giving man free will, God willing chose to not control much of what is going on. He has the power, but He gave man the authority. God will not violate the free will of man.


Well, with all due respect I am not failing to take anything into account. Your apparent misunderstanding is in not discerning the difference between man's limited free will and God's unlimited free will. I do not have unlimited free will. My free will has been limited by GOD HIMSELF. I cannot breathe underwater like a fish or fly like a bird or have the instincts of a cheetah. God has no limitations.

The problem is folks can't overcome their "societal programming" in thinking God has anything to do with evil and chaos. God has everything to do with it. Evil could not exist without God's Sovereign will. If Satan is running wild opposing God's plan and will, and is winning, then God isn't God.

Whatever permission God gives you, me, the devil, or anyone else is just that - PERMISSION. Do you know what PERMISSION MEANS? It means someone who has the AUTHORITY grants you privilege. It is still all from God. If God isn't Sovereign He isn't God. If He isn't Sovereign, then the Bible is wrong. If you think for one second that Adam fell outside of God's Sovereign plan, it may be what you choose to believe, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Word of God.

And you believe somehow that that statement is indicative of giving Satan a right to demand redress?

Seriously?

I think God told Satan Here is Job, he is such and such. Satan saw this area of Job's life he thought he would be successful in exploiting, and he said "OK, prove it then."

Uh... Satan did say "why bother." God was the one that took the hedge down and if it was to "test Job" as you say for God... Then there was CAUSE. It would have said you incited me to test Job's weakness... what it does say is WITHOUT CAUSE. Without cause is a simple statement. It means "for no reason"... right?

God said there was not cause. God was correct in what he said. This is what the passage is saying, in plain English. God tells Satan, look at my perfect servant Job. Satan says, yeah he is perfect because you have a hedge around him and will not let me mess with him, let me ravage him and he will curse you. God says I have no reason to do that because he is upright and just. Satan persists that the only reason he is such is because he has no access to him. Satan is telling God, let me have access to him and He will curse you and hate you.

God did not start the passage saying "Satan , Job needs to be taught a lesson, go pound him to pulp."
God said Job is upright, and Satan said prove it.

How does that establish what you are saying? That's simply Job saying... was worried about those younguns and now look... this is why I was worried.

And the area in which he showed fear is where Satan hit him.

Well, with all due respect I am not failing to take anything into account. Your apparent misunderstanding is in not discerning the difference between man's limited free will and God's unlimited free will. I do not have unlimited free will. My free will has been limited by GOD HIMSELF. I cannot breathe underwater like a fish or fly like a bird or have the instincts of a cheetah. God has no limitations.

The problem is folks can't overcome their "societal programming" in thinking God has anything to do with evil and chaos. God has everything to do with it. Evil could not exist without God's Sovereign will. If Satan is running wild opposing God's plan and will, and is winning, then God isn't God.

Whatever permission God gives you, me, the devil, or anyone else is just that - PERMISSION. Do you know what PERMISSION MEANS? It means someone who has the AUTHORITY grants you privilege. It is still all from God. If God isn't Sovereign He isn't God. If He isn't Sovereign, then the Bible is wrong. If you think for one second that Adam fell outside of God's Sovereign plan, it may be what you choose to believe, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the Word of God.

In God's "unlimited free will" he makes covenants with man. God can not lie. When God enters into a covenant, He is bound by His word to do and not do certain things. God is bound by His covenants with man.

I will tell you two things God CAN NOT DO.
He can not lie.
He can not destroy the Earth with another universal flood.

The Word also says "let no man who is tempted say I am tempted by God for...God tempts no man."
God tempts no man to sin. We are drawn away and enticed of our own lust which leads us to sin.

Why are you chastised and scourged? Because you are doing wrong. Do you beat your kids just to beat on them and make them stronger? Chastisement and scourging is to correct sin. God was plain that there were no areas in Job's life that needed corrected. I can just see me tellng my son "come here boy. You aint done nothing wrong, but I am going to beat the hell out of you just to make you stronger. I will not kill you, but I will beat you within an inch of your life. I have no reason for doing it, but it will make you stronger. And by the way, I am doing it because I love you."
Hebrews 12 does not say we are chastised or scourged because we did something wrong. It says we are chastised and scourged because we are sons and God loves us. vs 11 States that we yield the peacable fruit of righteousness after we are exercised by Gods chastening.

Christ suffered on our behalf. When we suffer we can understand the suffering of others. We can pray with conviction for those who are cold and hungry when we have been cold and hungry. We can pray for those who are infirmed when we have been infirmed. When you get old you can pray for those who are elderly. Suffering is a school like no other its lessons are not soon forgotten. Prosperity gospel teaches that if you are not rich and successful its because you are not in fellowship with the Lord. Yet I have seen those who endure suffering to be closest to the Lord. The Lord delights in our dependence solely upon Him for our every need. When we are rich and increased in goods we tend to depend on our goods and not on the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And the area in which he showed fear is where Satan hit him.
As I recall the narrative it was God Who asked satan if he had considered Gods servant Job not satan accusing Job before the Lord.

What is our lifetime of existance here on this earth in the vast expanse of eternity? If I should suffer for a thousand years it is nothing when I consider the joys of an eternity with Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God said there was not cause. God was correct in what he said. This is what the passage is saying, in plain English. God tells Satan, look at my perfect servant Job. Satan says, yeah he is perfect because you have a hedge around him and will not let me mess with him, let me ravage him and he will curse you. God says I have no reason to do that because he is upright and just. Satan persists that the only reason he is such is because he has no access to him. Satan is telling God, let me have access to him and He will curse you and hate you.

God did not start the passage saying "Satan , Job needs to be taught a lesson, go pound him to pulp."
God said Job is upright, and Satan said prove it.

You do realize that you are well back-tracked from your original position? ;)

And the area in which he showed fear is where Satan hit him.Could have just as easily been the fact that they were his kids and since satan had access to them because of their lifestyle... had nothing at all to do with Job's concern for his children. It is very natural for a parent to be concerned for their kids you know... especially if they have a lifestyle contrary to that which you know is right.

I am saying neither. I am saying that God brought down the hedge to show Satan how upright and righteous Job was. While the hedge was down for this purpose, and this purpose alone, Satan spotted an area he disagreed with God about and demanded right to challenge Job in this area and attempt to refute what God had said about Job.

Here's what scripture says.


Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, " From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered theLord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 " Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
NASU

Satan told God before the hedge was down that if God allowed him to take Job's possessions, that Job would curse God. Satan didn't decide what he was going to do after the hedge was removed. He decided what he would do before the hedge was removed. It doesn't hold up that Satan "spotted something after the hedge was removed".

Satan gave Job everything he could, figuratively speaking, when it came to suffering. Job took his harshest blow, and still feared God. That, is the story of Job. That a man can love/fear God for nothing in this life is an amazing thing and God lifted Job up to show him off to all of creation. The things Satan did would have been done to Job regardless of Job's feelings in the matter. And certainly, Satan didn't spot anything "after the hedge was removed". He had his plan laid out when he went to God to begin with and before the hedge was ever removed.

To be my normal completely crass and heartless self, please prove to me that your best friend's three-year-old niece who was kidnapped, molested and murdered wasn't for some divine purpose.Let’s see…what could the DEBILITATING FEAR of being kidnapped, the UNSPEAKABLE HORROR of being physically molested and abused and the TERRIFYING TORTURE of being murdered bring to a sweet, innocent three-year-old child? Are you insane? If not, prove so by not asking me this type of heartless, senseless question again.


I understand the thought, but I believe it is impossible for us to see divine purpose. God does not cause evil, but he does permit it and he also uses it in spite of the evil for good.God has created a world where free will exists. For this to be real, He has to take the bad with the good. But, yes, God is always working on our behalf to bring something good out of our evil. It’s our evil, not His.

How did the apostles die? I mean seriously... you are trying to make a difference between man and the devil... persecution from man and persecution from the devil... but if they are of this world are they not children of satan thus his tools for whatever purpose? Even tares among wheat are the devils pals to do his work within the field. People... yes. Used by satan... better know it. Yet the armor didn't stop their death nor did it stop the buffeting that Paul took from that messenger of satan. If you don't already know what buffeting means... look that up. Paul chose that word to describe what it was like. ;)

The armor of God was never intended to prevent persecution. I wasn't stating that. The armor protects us from those firey darts from the wicked one. Anyway, to go back to the OP, we can certainly rest assured those people are inspired of the devil and not inspired by God.

No! That was God trying to teach her family a lesson. God murders little children to bring their parents closer to Him.

That is a bunch of garbage, but that is what many people believe.

We lost a child during pregnancy. Satan took that child. I am going to be 100% honest with yall. If I believed God did it, I would have no use for Him. God does not kill children to bring the parents closes to Him. He is not an abusive tyrant, but a loving Father.Do you want to know how God feels when we lose one of our children? All we have to do is look at Jesus who is the perfect revelation of God. “Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow;…When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, “Do not weep.”…And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!” The dead man sat up and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother.”

“The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).

I can't throw out half the word VR.

No, but we can rightly divide it which is why we aren't currently out there getting our hands bloody on the farm killing bulls and goats. Job did not walk as Paul walked. He did not walk as Peter walked. He did not walk as Stephen walked. The born again, Spirit-filled Christian who is indwelt by the Living God should be able to overcome what those who didn't have the same could.


Peter talked about a firey trial.

Trial can come from an assortment of things. I think folks like to lump all sorts of things into trial that weren't intended.


Paul had a messenger of Satan that he couldn't get rid of.

Persecution.


Timothy had a stomach ailment that wasn't healed.

Drinking bad water. It was not a trial sent by God.

Jesus healed some people. Not everyone. That's an important fact.

That depends on when and where you're talking. There are several scriptures that say He healed all who were brought to Him. That being said, I think it is beside the point of the OP.

That depends on when and where you're talking. There are several scriptures that say He healed all who were brought to Him. That being said, I think it is beside the point of the OP.

Umm... speaking overall. He didn't heal everyone. If so... the guy at the gate called beautiful would have already been walking, leaping, and praising God. ;)

No, but we can rightly divide it which is why we aren't currently out there getting our hands bloody on the farm killing bulls and goats. Job did not walk as Paul walked. He did not walk as Peter walked. He did not walk as Stephen walked. The born again, Spirit-filled Christian who is indwelt by the Living God should be able to overcome what those who didn't have the same could.

No doubt we need to rightly divide it. God put the book of Job in there for us as an example, IMO.


Trial can come from an assortment of things. I think folks like to lump all sorts of things into trial weren't intended.

Agreed.


Persecution.

Infirmity.


Drinking bad water. It was not a trial sent by God.

Oh, I wasn't getting into the cause. I was just pointing out a Godly man, full of faith, that wasn't healed during that time and had to take medicine for whatever reason. Sickness isn't always the result of a lack of faith, or deception, unbelief, etc.

Umm... speaking overall. He didn't heal everyone. If so... the guy at the gate called beautiful would have already been walking, leaping, and praising God. ;)

Not to mention the "multitude" that was gathered at the pool where he healed only 1 man.

Sure... plenty of such incidents.

If the devil, or anyone, or anything else operates outside of the sovereignty of God - God is not God! There is not, and cannot be, one single random atom in the universe outside of God's direct or indirect control. That is what MAKES GOD SOVEREIGN. If God is not in absolute control of everything then there can be no assurance that His promises are true, regarding salvation or anything else.

I believe this is a misrepresentation of sovereignty. Sovereignty does not mean that God controls everything.

The United States, for example, is a sovereign nation. However, that does not mean that the United States controls everything that happens within its borders. The United States, being sovereign, still does not control the actions of its citizens. The citizens are still free to move about and choose to do whatever they please without the government of the United States' say-so. This fact does not take away from this nation's sovereignty. It simply applies sovereignty in its proper and true context.

I would say that you are correct. Evil happens in this, an evil world. However, God uses these tragedies for ultimate good for those who love Him in Christ (Romans 8:28).

As to the larger point of this thread, I would assume your best friend's family are followers of Christ, living under His Grace and guidance. How would this have happened? I assume that Vertical would argue that the family allowed a "chink in the Armor" of Christ? Or, is the argument that this is an attack of Men and not an attack of the principalities of darkness which we are afforded protection from by the Armor of Christ? Please let me know if I need to delete this post because you don't want to tread on this particular topic.

I would say that God does not force anything on anyone . . . including those who would go out and commit unspeakable and heinous acts. God left mankind in charge of this earth. Therefore, there are lots of people who walk about doing things not according to God's word but according to the wicked flesh.

In God's "unlimited free will" he makes covenants with man. God can not lie. When God enters into a covenant, He is bound by His word to do and not do certain things. God is bound by His covenants with man.

I will tell you two things God CAN NOT DO.
He can not lie.
He can not destroy the Earth with another universal flood.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point here. The question we are discussing is not the mechanics, details, and nuances of how God has chosen to work out His redemptive plan throughout human history. I thought our discussion was centered around whether or not ANY EVIL OR GOOD TAKES PLACE OUTSIDE OF THE PERMISSIVE SOVEREIGN WILL OF GOD. No doubt there are a number of things beyond what you have listed that God cannot do, but merely because He has chosen to not do them. I think we are going away from the topic. NO?

If the hedge is down, and Satan wants to hurt a man the most, he goes to what that man fears the most. But the fear didn't bring the hedge down. God brought it down to test Job and to prove for all eternity, to all creation, that man could love and fear God for nothing. Job answered the question "Does Job fear God for nothing?" with a resounding YES!

Like God said, and it bears repeating, there was no cause for the ruin. None. Zip. There was no opening created by Job. None, Nada, Zippo.


Job 1:7-11
7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
NASU

and

Job 2:2-5
2 The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." 4 Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
NASU

The great question is answered "Will man fear God for nothing". It is a great truth that God has a man, whom God has changed and matured, will indeed serve, fear and love God with or without blessings on this earth. As Job said "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."

And in this I think you are once again making Satan more powerful than the work of Christ. What you are basically saying here is that God can and will lower this "hedge of protection" from around us, and He will allow Satan the authority to come into our lives and basically bring whatever he wants up to a point. You are making us beneath Satan and his power when Christ has lifted His people above it. Your teaching here is making us powerless against our enemy.

If anyone would actually think about that while considering the extremely powerful work of Christ on Calvary, I think it easy to see how much of an insult that is.

I would say that God does not force anything on anyone . . . including those who would go out and commit unspeakable and heinous acts. God left mankind in charge of this earth. Therefore, there are lots of people who walk about doing things not according to God's word but according to the wicked flesh.

If I might say, mankind is not in charge of this earth or world system. It is the "god of this world" that is in charge my friend. Unredeemed man is merely the pawn of the forces of evil.

Uh... what does WITHOUT CAUSE mean? You keep saying there was a cause but God differs with you. Be careful holding on to that man teaching while discounting what was clearly said. That leads you into all sorts of error!

If I'm interpreting Reynolds right I think he's saying that God allowed the test without any cause from Job, but after this happened Satan needed to find an avenue to attack Job through. I understand his point. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but the way he is interpreting Job's situation cannot really be tripped up by the fact it was allowed without cause.

I would say that you are correct. Evil happens in this, an evil world. However, God uses these tragedies for ultimate good for those who love Him in Christ (Romans 8:28).And what good did it do for the life of that little, three-year-old girl? Nothing. Her life was taken. So, Romans 8:28 couldn’t apply to her at all.


As to the larger point of this thread, I would assume your best friend's family are followers of Christ, living under His Grace and guidance. How would this have happened? I assume that Vertical would argue that the family allowed a "chink in the Armor" of Christ? Or, is the argument that this is an attack of Men and not an attack of the principalities of darkness which we are afforded protection from by the Armor of Christ? Please let me know if I need to delete this post because you don't want to tread on this particular topic.It’s an attack of evil whether one wants to call it evil man or the principalities of darkness. But God does not allow evil SO THAT a way is provided for Him to show us some greater good. God has created a world with free will agents. For this all to be genuine, God must take the bad with the good. Bad things happen because people and angels do bad things. Bad things don’t happen FOR a purpose but they can happen WITH a purpose, because God is always working to bring good out of evil.

Hebrews 12 does not say we are chastised or scourged because we did something wrong.

That's exactly what it says. The passage likens God's chastening to a human father correcting his child. Why would a father correct his child? It's because that child has done something wrong.

Hebrews 12:7-9
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect.

Umm... speaking overall. He didn't heal everyone. If so... the guy at the gate called beautiful would have already been walking, leaping, and praising God. ;)

No argument from me there.

Infirmity.

I agree. Paul tells us what the infirmity was, and in the Greek the term doesn't only mean sickness or disease. It means a weakness of the flesh. Paul had much weakness in the flesh, but he tells us this weakness came from persecution.


Oh, I wasn't getting into the cause. I was just pointing out a Godly man, full of faith, that wasn't healed during that time and had to take medicine for whatever reason. Sickness isn't always the result of a lack of faith, or deception, unbelief, etc.

I think it's an assumption that Timothy needed healing. Maybe he just didn't need to drink the water. Drink wine instead.

If I might say, mankind is not in charge of this earth or world system. It is the "god of this world" that is in charge my friend. Unredeemed man is merely the pawn of the forces of evil.

Is the "god of this world" not in charge because mankind has allowed him this charge? All mankind has to do is stop allowing that charge. How would that be possible? Well, easy. Do things the way God said in the first place. That is why those who are born again and Spirit-filled now have authority over all the power of the enemy and nothing he does can harm them (or at least shouldn't be able to harm them).

Is the "god of this world" not in charge because mankind has allowed him this charge? All mankind has to do is stop allowing that charge. How would that possible? Well, easy. Do things the way God said in the first place. That is why those who are born again and Spirit-filled now have authority over all the power of the enemy and nothing he does can harm them (or at least shouldn't be able to harm them).

Actually NO. Man lost his right of dominion - Geneses 1 - with his fall. Now, the whole world lieth in wickedness under the control of the god of this world. Only Christ can recapture that dominion and that will not happen until the Second Coming of Christ.

If you wish to observe the influence of the so-called Christian Church over the world and it's pervasive evil, turn on the evening news. In this day and time, the so-called church has ceased to be relevant. I live in a small town of about 5,000 people with 52 local churches in the area. This town is one of the devil's strongholds and is ravaged by demonic activity and drugs. That's how relevant the "church" is.

And in this I think you are once again making Satan more powerful than the work of Christ. What you are basically saying here is that God can and will lower this "hedge of protection" from around us, and He will allow Satan the authority to come into our lives and basically bring whatever he wants up to a point. You are making us beneath Satan and his power when Christ has lifted His people above it. Your teaching here is making us powerless against our enemy.

If anyone would actually think about that while considering the extremely powerful work of Christ on Calvary, I think it easy to see how much of an insult that is.

No it's not VR. Satan was only able to do this under the authority of God. No where in the book of Job does Satan win. God is in control the entire time. When God decides to test us, all the rebuking in the world won't make a difference if he wants to test us by removing the hedge for a period of time.

That's exactly what it says. The passage likens God's chastening to a human father correcting his child. Why would a father correct his child? It's because that child has done something wrong.

Hebrews 12:7-9
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect.
vs 6 For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth. Unless all are universally disobedient I don't see how your logic holds up. His chastening is loving like a fathers chastening but He chastens every one whom He receiveth. Every one.

We do not see God as capricious is His chastisement of those He loves and His motive is love. It is through His chastisement that we are able to lift up the hands which hang down and the knees of the feeble. vs 15 says Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you and by it many be defiled.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God tempts no man to sin. We are drawn away and enticed of our own lust which leads us to sin.

Hebrews 12 does not say we are chastised or scourged because we did something wrong. It says we are chastised and scourged because we are sons and God loves us. vs 11 States that we yield the peacable fruit of righteousness after we are exercised by Gods chastening.

Christ suffered on our behalf. When we suffer we can understand the suffering of others. We can pray with conviction for those who are cold and hungry when we have been cold and hungry. We can pray for those who are infirmed when we have been infirmed. When you get old you can pray for those who are elderly. Suffering is a school like no other its lessons are not soon forgotten. Prosperity gospel teaches that if you are not rich and successful its because you are not in fellowship with the Lord. Yet I have seen those who endure suffering to be closest to the Lord. The Lord delights in our dependence solely upon Him for our every need. When we are rich and increased in goods we tend to depend on our goods and not on the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God beats us up when we have done nothing wrong? That in no way fits the model of the loving Father He set forth. Correction and discipline is to stop bad behavior. We do not beat our kids for doing nothing wrong.

I agree. Paul tells us what the infirmity was, and in the Greek the term doesn't only mean sickness or disease. It means a weakness of the flesh. Paul had much weakness in the flesh, but he tells us this weakness came from persecution.

The Galatians or Ephesians (not sure which) were willing to pluck out their eyes and give it to him. IMO, his infirmity was with his eyes, not persecution (though he was persecuted).


I think it's an assumption that Timothy needed healing. Maybe he just didn't need to drink the water. Drink wine instead.

Something wasn't sitting well with his stomach. He needed something. It was common to drink both wine and water in those days. Maybe Timothy's stomach was weaker than most.

Anyway, we have reached an impass. We won't agree on this. IMO, God still tests his children, and that testing can include hunger (as it did with Christ), sickness as it did with Job, persecution as it did with Paul, and on and on and on.

You do realize that you are well back-tracked from your original position? ;)

No. I have not. I simply stated my position in summarized form.

Here's what scripture says.


Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, " From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered theLord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 " Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.
NASU

Satan told God before the hedge was down that if God allowed him to take Job's possessions, that Job would curse God. Satan didn't decide what he was going to do after the hedge was removed. He decided what he would do before the hedge was removed. It doesn't hold up that Satan "spotted something after the hedge was removed".

Satan gave Job everything he could, figuratively speaking, when it came to suffering. Job took his harshest blow, and still feared God. That, is the story of Job. That a man can love/fear God for nothing in this life is an amazing thing and God lifted Job up to show him off to all of creation. The things Satan did would have been done to Job regardless of Job's feelings in the matter. And certainly, Satan didn't spot anything "after the hedge was removed". He had his plan laid out when he went to God to begin with and before the hedge was ever removed.

Satan was allowed to see Job when God asked Job if he had considered him.

Uh... apparently you are reading into what's being said if you think that's what Mark or I am doing here. It has nothing to do with it being the cause of all suffering... just that is can be a cause.I wasn't responding to your post to the OP, I was responding to the OP. And when you made a comment about what I wrote, I replied back to you. So, I don't know what you and Mark think.

Actually NO. Man lost his right of dominion - Geneses 1 - with his fall. Now, the whole world lieth in wickedness under the control of the god of this world. Only Christ can recapture that dominion and that will not happen until the Second Coming of Christ.

If you wish to observe the influence of the so-called Christian Church over the world and it's pervasive evil, turn on the evening news. In this day and time, the so-called church has ceased to be relevant. I live in a small town of about 5,000 people with 52 local churches in the area. This town is one of the devil's strongholds and is ravaged by demonic activity and drugs. That's how relevant the "church" is.

Do you think the church of scripture was irrelevant?

I cannot agree with you here. Those who walk in the Lord and abide in Him have dominion/authority over the enemy.

No it's not VR. Satan was only able to do this under the authority of God. No where in the book of Job does Satan win. God is in control the entire time. When God decides to test us, all the rebuking in the world won't make a difference if he wants to test us by removing the hedge for a period of time.

So again, you are making the born again, Spirit-filled child of God powerless against his/her enemy. Basically just saying, "Come on in, devil. Bring all sorts of nastiness because I can't do a thing about it!"

That isn't scriptural in my estimation of the word of God.

So again, you are making the born again, Spirit-filled child of God powerless against his/her enemy. Basically just saying, "Come on in, devil. Bring all sorts of nastiness because I can't do a thing about it!"

That isn't scriptural in my estimation of the word of God.

You know, I saw a thread where you accused someone of putting words in your mouth. Now you are doing the same thing to me.

What I am saying, is what PP said earlier... we have authority over the enemy until God decides to put us through a test. Even then, God limits Satan (as he did with Job). Our authority is granted to us through God and Jesus Christ his Son. But when the ultimate authority, i.e. God, decides it's time to remove the hedge for some testing, all the rebuking in the world won't back Satan up because the Ultimate Authority has decided it's time for testing.

What your saying is this (if I understand it correctly)... so long as Satan uses another man to persecute me, God allows it. But if Satan comes directly at me to persecute me God doesn't allow. IMO, it's 6 one way, half a dozen the other. Many believers don't think about rebuking the enemy at all. I think he is far more active than most believe. And I know we have authority over him. BUT, when God decides it's time for testing, we can tell Satan to leave all we want, but he aint going anywhere till the appointed time for testing is up.

The Galatians or Ephesians (not sure which) were willing to pluck out their eyes and give it to him. IMO, his infirmity was with his eyes, not persecution (though he was persecuted).

Yes, when he went to the church in Galatia he had just been stoned in Lystra, so I'd say it very probable he had difficulty with his eyes. They were probably nearly swollen shut. However, it wasn't some mysterious seaping eye disease as many assume.


Something wasn't sitting well with his stomach. He needed something. It was common to drink both wine and water in those days. Maybe Timothy's stomach was weaker than most.

I've heard those assumptions. However, that's what they are . . . assumptions.


IMO, God still tests his children, and that testing can include hunger (as it did with Christ), sickness as it did with Job, persecution as it did with Paul, and on and on and on.

We do agree that God will test His children. We definitely disagree in the notion that the devil has authority over the believer (that is what you're saying with this teaching).

You know, I saw a thread where you accused someone of putting words in your mouth. Now you are doing the same thing to me.

Show me where.


What I am saying, is what PP said earlier... we have authority over the enemy until God decides to put us through a test.

So, again, you're saying that when God puts us to a test we no longer have authority over the enemy. He now has power over us. I'm sorry, that is not scriptural under the New Covenant.


Even then, God limits Satan (as he did with Job).

Limited or not, you're still saying Satan has authority and power over the believer which is not true under the New Covenant unless the believer allows it through sowing to the flesh.


Our authority is granted to us through God and Jesus Christ his Son.

Now what scripture would you reference that says this authority is taken away for some test God wants to put us through? What scripture would you reference stating that a Spirit-filled believer who has been given this authority will have it removed so that the devil can have a full on attack, granted with some sort of limitation?


But when the ultimate authority, i.e. God, decides it's time to remove the hedge for some testing, all the rebuking in the world won't back Satan up because the Ultimate Authority has decided it's time for testing.

And I can guarantee you now that if you keep this mindset the devil will take advantage of it. The armor is there. Just put it on. God doesn't say, "Nope . . . the armor is not available for this time of testing!" That isn't true.


What your saying is this (if I understand it correctly)... so long as Satan uses another man to persecute me, God allows it.

God doesn't control people.


But if Satan comes directly at me to persecute me God doesn't allow.

I didn't say God won't allow Satan to come at you. I said you don't have to sit there and say, "Welp . . . it's testing time. Go ahead, devil, punch me a few times in the face. I'll leave my helmet off so you can get a good shot!"

No need to wonder. It was without cause. If the kids were living wrong... the devil knew. They were his. If the devil knew the wife was a nag and left her to nag... there ya go. But the reason... without cause.

I am with Reynolds here. Job feared God would take away his "earthly things" because of possible sins of his kids, hence he sacrificed. And exactly here on his "weakest" point Job is tested. That's no coincidence. It quite deepens Job's trial. Like Abraham was tested on his "weakest point", sacrificing Isaac. "Without Cause" simply means sin was a non issue, no more no less, like with Abraham.

So far I have missed 2 texts that could help understanding the complexity of the issue.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

That's what satan is doing on a 24/7 base, accusing, not limited to Job nor the OT.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

How to understand? Paul's thorn did not go away. Rule of thumb only?

Uh... what does WITHOUT CAUSE mean? You keep saying there was a cause but God differs with you. Be careful holding on to that man teaching while discounting what was clearly said. That leads you into all sorts of error!

He isn't saying that. It was satan who picked the type of trial. satan knew Job's most vulnerable point. Nevertheless God allowed it to happen as He knew Job to be victorious.


Indirectly, Yes.

That's a too strong statement.

If the hedge is down, and Satan wants to hurt a man the most, he goes to what that man fears the most. But the fear didn't bring the hedge down. God brought it down to test Job and to prove for all eternity, to all creation, that man could love and fear God for nothing. Job answered the question "Does Job fear God for nothing?" with a resounding YES!

Like God said, and it bears repeating, there was no cause for the ruin. None. Zip. There was no opening created by Job. None, Nada, Zippo.


Job 1:7-11
7 The Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
NASU

and

Job 2:2-5
2 The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 3 The Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." 4 Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 "However, put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face."
NASU

The great question is answered "Will man fear God for nothing". It is a great truth that God has a man, whom God has changed and matured, will indeed serve, fear and love God with or without blessings on this earth. As Job said "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him."

Best post of this thread.

And in this I think you are once again making Satan more powerful than the work of Christ. What you are basically saying here is that God can and will lower this "hedge of protection" from around us, and He will allow Satan the authority to come into our lives and basically bring whatever he wants up to a point. You are making us beneath Satan and his power when Christ has lifted His people above it. Your teaching here is making us powerless against our enemy.

If anyone would actually think about that while considering the extremely powerful work of Christ on Calvary, I think it easy to see how much of an insult that is.

We are all tested in this life. It's the whole purpose. There is a war going on in the heavens ever since satan rebelled. Earth is the battlefield. Jesus the Victor. "until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet."

Until then there will be many "Job's". What BM said.

Peter's trial:

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, pay attention! Satan has demanded to have you all, to sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death!” 34 Jesus replied, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know me.

We are all tested in this life. It's the whole purpose. There is a war going on in the heavens ever since satan rebelled. Earth is the battlefield. Jesus the Victor. "until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet."

Until then there will be many "Job's". What BM said.

Peter's trial:

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, pay attention! Satan has demanded to have you all, to sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. When you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” 33 But Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death!” 34 Jesus replied, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know me.

I don't know how I can make it more clear, though, that my stand on this topic IS NOT that we will be free from trial or test.

When it comes to the specific example of Paul's thorn in the flesh, I think it's important to bear in mind that he never clearly spells out exactly or specifically what it was. He talks about what kinds of effects on his life it had, and why it was sent, and what God's response was when he asked three times that it be taken away. What he does not do is say, in effect, "This is what my thorn in the flesh was and how it played out in the specific circumstances of my life." Why? My educated guess would be that he didn't think it was all that important. After all, it's the underlying spiritual principle that's important, not the specific details of what the actual thorn in the flesh may or may not have been. Can we come up with all sorts of conjectures, guesses and theories as to what it might've been by comparing Scripture with Scripture? Sure, but that's all that they will ever be, because Paul never says specifically what it was. If God wanted us to know what it was, He would've told Paul to write down what it was, but since he didn't, I'm guessing God didn't think it was important that we know what it was specifically. So, IMHO, when we try to figure out what God has remained silent on, we are treading on potentially dangerous ground. After all, the Bible does state that "the secret things belong to the Lord our God," (Deuteronomy 29:29a, NASB) Just something to think about.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

And what good did it do for the life of that little, three-year-old girl? Nothing. Her life was taken. So, Romans 8:28 couldn’t apply to her at all.

It’s an attack of evil whether one wants to call it evil man or the principalities of darkness. But God does not allow evil SO THAT a way is provided for Him to show us some greater good. God has created a world with free will agents. For this all to be genuine, God must take the bad with the good. Bad things happen because people and angels do bad things. Bad things don’t happen FOR a purpose but they can happen WITH a purpose, because God is always working to bring good out of evil.I don't suggest what you are implying. The difference is subtle, but important, I think. I would say that God allows suffering in this world. I say that because suffering occurs amidst the Body of Christ daily and I believe that God has the capacity to insulate us from this suffering if He so chose. He didn't choose to do this, however. He chose to allow evil to permeate this World and sent Christ to redeem us and give us Eternal life and ULTIMATE victory over sin, suffering, and death.

With that said, I wouldn't say that God allowed suffering to this family SO THAT He could teach anyone a lesson. I believe that suffering occurred because He has chosen to allow evil in this world. For the Faithful in Christ, He will use the suffering that has occurred as a result of this evil world to ultimately glorify the Kingdom of God and thereby proving that He is our Peace on this Earth. I believe that God allows suffering, but has proven Himself to His Children that He will walk through any valley with us and, in the end, bring us through. If I didn't believe this, what hope would I have on this Earth in Christ? It would be a matter of my simply trudging through life just waiting for the day that I die and go home.

As for the little girl, she is with Christ. I also have no doubt that God was with her through her whole ordeal and welcomed her lovingly into His arms in the end. Is Romans 8:28 restricted to the health and prosperity of individuals and their time on Earth? I don't think we can point to death and say that it is proof that God doesn't work things out for His children...not if I believe the Scripture that tells me that nothing on this Earth can compare with the glory in store for us when we are with Christ in Heaven. What of the testimony of the family who is faithful to God even despite this tragedy? I have a friend whose father was a preacher and died a slow, agonizing death of cancer. Her and her sister's Faiths were nearly destroyed. I had the opportunity to basically just encourage her to not forget about the Grace and Love of God. She is slowly starting to find her way back to Christ. He is working in her life as long as she continues to respond to Him. What a great testimony she will have of God's love and Grace when she is able to tell people about her pain, rebellion, and ultimate restoration in Christ.

When it comes to the specific example of Paul's thorn in the flesh, I think it's important to bear in mind that he never clearly spells out exactly or specifically what it was. He talks about what kinds of effects on his life it had, and why it was sent, and what God's response was when he asked three times that it be taken away. What he does not do is say, in effect, "This is what my thorn in the flesh was and how it played out in the specific circumstances of my life." Why? My educated guess would be that he didn't think it was all that important. After all, it's the underlying spiritual principle that's important, not the specific details of what the actual thorn in the flesh may or may not have been. Can we come up with all sorts of conjectures, guesses and theories as to what it might've been by comparing Scripture with Scripture? Sure, but that's all that they will ever be, because Paul never says specifically what it was. If God wanted us to know what it was, He would've told Paul to write down what it was, but since he didn't, I'm guessing God didn't think it was important that we know what it was specifically. So, IMHO, when we try to figure out what God has remained silent on, we are treading on potentially dangerous ground. After all, the Bible does state that "the secret things belong to the Lord our God," (Deuteronomy 29:29a, NASB) Just something to think about.

Yours in Christ,

Benjamin

I disagree. I believe Paul does spell out what his thorn was at the end of 2 Corinthians 11.

I believe Paul's thorn was people always speculating about what his thorn was....

:)

God has satan held back at this time. If satan were allowed to fulfill his desires all things God has created would be destroyed. 2 Thess 2:1-7 We are given the Holy Spirits restraining ministry. When the great tribulation begins we will see just how evil satan is and how severe the destruction of sin really is. We ought not to trifle with sin as it always brings forth death. Adam never foresaw the magnitude of what his sin would lead to.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God has satan held back at this time. If satan were allowed to fulfill his desires all things God has created would be destroyed. 2 Thess 2:1-7 We are given the Holy Spirits restraining ministry. When the great tribulation begins we will see just how evil satan is and how severe the destruction of sin really is. We ought not to trifle with sin as it always brings forth death. Adam never foresaw the magnitude of what his sin would lead to.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The restrainer you will see gone in the tribulation is The Church. The Holy Spirit will be present and workin on Earth during the Tribulation.

I disagree. I believe Paul does spell out what his thorn was at the end of 2 Corinthians 11.

VerticalReality:

I looked up the Scripture passage you referenced, because it had been a little while since I had read it, and what I see going on there is the apostle Paul enumerating all of the different hardships/trials/problems he has faced up until the writing of that passage in an effort to defend his apostleship. It's like he is saying to the Corinthian believers, "Why do you not want to believe that I'm just as much an apostle as any of the original 12 disciples, minus Judas Iscariot? I've been through just as much trouble as them, and I'd much rather boast in my weaknesses and hardships than any earthly title." I don't see how any one of the laundry list of things that Paul mentioned there, or even all of them collectively, was meant to be identified as Paul's thorn in the flesh. That just does violence to the text in question, as far as I'm concerned. If you want to believe that's what it is, go right ahead. That's your prerogative and more power to you. However, I don't think it is justifiable by reading the text in context. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

VerticalReality:

I looked up the Scripture passage you referenced, because it had been a little while since I had read it, and what I see going on there is the apostle Paul enumerating all of the different hardships/trials/problems he has faced up until the writing of that passage in an effort to defend his apostleship. It's like he is saying to the Corinthian believers, "Why do you not want to believe that I'm just as much an apostle as any of the original 12 disciples, minus Judas Iscariot? I've been through just as much trouble as them, and I'd much rather boast in my weaknesses and hardships than any earthly title." I don't see how any one of the laundry list of things that Paul mentioned there, or even all of them collectively, was meant to be identified as Paul's thorn in the flesh. That just does violence to the text in question, as far as I'm concerned. If you want to believe that's what it is, go right ahead. That's your prerogative and more power to you. However, I don't think it is justifiable by reading the text in context. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Obviously, I'm going to disagree again. I think it's a perfect fit in context. As we all know, chapter and verse were added at a later date, so chapters 11 and 12 would naturally flow right together in a letter. Paul concludes in chapter 11 by speaking of his infirmity and continues in chapter 12 to discuss further his infirmity.

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

His infirmity consisted of everything he listed in verses 23-28. Paul continues into chapter 12 saying he will only boast in his infirmities . . .

2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

Paul then goes into speaking more about his infirmity while calling it a thorn . . .

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

So, in the span of 20 verses through the end of chapter 11 and beginning of 12 Paul talks about his infirmities on several occasions, and the laundry list of infirmities given would be the logical conclusion in relation to his thorn. To address your statement, I think it would be ignoring the context to suggest otherwise.

Obviously, I'm going to disagree again. I think it's a perfect fit in context. As we all know, chapter and verse were added at a later date, so chapters 11 and 12 would naturally flow right together in a letter. Paul concludes in chapter 11 by speaking of his infirmity and continues in chapter 12 to discuss further his infirmity.

2 Corinthians 11:30
If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

His infirmity consisted of everything he listed in verses 23-28. Paul continues into chapter 12 saying he will only boast in his infirmities . . .

2 Corinthians 12:5
Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

Paul then goes into speaking more about his infirmity while calling it a thorn . . .

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

So, in the span of 20 verses through the end of chapter 11 and beginning of 12 Paul talks about his infirmities on several occasions, and the laundry list of infirmities given would be the logical conclusion in relation to his thorn. To address your statement, I think it would be ignoring the context to suggest otherwise.

Good stuff, VerticalReality. I don't know if I totally buy it, though. Look at the order of how Paul talks about things. First, in chapter 11, verses 23 through 33, he talks about the various trials/hardships/problems he has had as a result of preaching the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Second, in verses 1 through 6 of chapter 12, he switches to talking about the man who was caught up to the third heaven. Third, in verses 7 through 10, he gets around to talking about his thorn in the flesh. Now, if I were writing about a thorn in the flesh that I had, I would start by talking about it in very general terms, and then go on to identify what it was more specifically. But, that is not what the apostle Paul does here. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not totally and completely ruling out the possibility of hardship being Paul's thorn in the flesh. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me, given the order of the topics discussed in the passage at hand. Maybe I just need to study the passage more closely and ask for God's wisdom and discernment. The only downside I see to all of this is that this, IMHO, is a relatively unimportant topic in the Lord's eyes. There are a lot of other issues in the Bible and in our world that are a heck of lot more important to the heart of God than what, exactly, is Paul's thorn in the flesh. Is it interesting to think about and discuss? Sure, but as long as it distracts us from focusing on what is truly important to God, i.e., seeking the lost and lovingly and respectfully presenting to them the good news of the gospel, it is a hindrance rather than a help. Just my two cents.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

Good stuff, VerticalReality. I don't know if I totally buy it, though. Look at the order of how Paul talks about things. First, in chapter 11, verses 23 through 33, he talks about the various trials/hardships/problems he has had as a result of preaching the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Second, in verses 1 through 6 of chapter 12, he switches to talking about the man who was caught up to the third heaven. Third, in verses 7 through 10, he gets around to talking about his thorn in the flesh. Now, if I were writing about a thorn in the flesh that I had, I would start by talking about it in very general terms, and then go on to identify what it was more specifically. But, that is not what the apostle Paul does here. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not totally and completely ruling out the possibility of hardship being Paul's thorn in the flesh. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to me, given the order of the topics discussed in the passage at hand. Maybe I just need to study the passage more closely and ask for God's wisdom and discernment. The only downside I see to all of this is that this, IMHO, is a relatively unimportant topic in the Lord's eyes. There are a lot of other issues in the Bible and in our world that are a heck of lot more important to the heart of God than what, exactly, is Paul's thorn in the flesh. Is it interesting to think about and discuss? Sure, but as long as it distracts us from focusing on what is truly important to God, i.e., seeking the lost and lovingly and respectfully presenting to them the good news of the gospel, it is a hindrance rather than a help. Just my two cents.

Yours in Him,

Benjamin

I don't think Paul is concerned about an order of the infirmities in this passage as the infirmities are not the primary context of Paul's message. The only reason Paul is mentioning his infirmities is because of the larger issue of those questioning his calling and authority. That is the true context of the passage. Paul, therefore, boasts in his infirmities. Everyone wants to make the primary context of the passage about Paul's thorn but that is a secondary issue here.

I don't suggest what you are implying. The difference is subtle, but important, I think. I would say that God allows suffering in this world. I say that because suffering occurs amidst the Body of Christ daily and I believe that God has the capacity to insulate us from this suffering if He so chose. He didn't choose to do this, however. He chose to allow evil to permeate this World and sent Christ to redeem us and give us Eternal life and ULTIMATE victory over sin, suffering, and death.

With that said, I wouldn't say that God allowed suffering to this family SO THAT He could teach anyone a lesson. I believe that suffering occurred because He has chosen to allow evil in this world. For the Faithful in Christ, He will use the suffering that has occurred as a result of this evil world to ultimately glorify the Kingdom of God and thereby proving that He is our Peace on this Earth. I believe that God allows suffering, but has proven Himself to His Children that He will walk through any valley with us and, in the end, bring us through. If I didn't believe this, what hope would I have on this Earth in Christ? It would be a matter of my simply trudging through life just waiting for the day that I die and go home.Excellent post here. I agree with what you’ve shared.


As for the little girl, she is with Christ. I also have no doubt that God was with her through her whole ordeal and welcomed her lovingly into His arms in the end.Absolutely!


Is Romans 8:28 restricted to the health and prosperity of individuals and their time on Earth?I don’t think “health and prosperity” are necessarily the “good” spoken of here. However, I do believe it most specifically relates to this age.


I don't think we can point to death and say that it is proof that God doesn't work things out for His children...not if I believe the Scripture that tells me that nothing on this Earth can compare with the glory in store for us when we are with Christ in Heaven.Death is not a sign that God doesn’t work things out for His children, but I think it’s a mistake to throw Romans 8:28 in the face of a family who’s lost a child and say, “See, it was for the child’s own good that she died.” That verse may apply to the family, but it doesn’t apply any longer to the dead child. Having said that, it is the hope of the resurrection that smacks the face of death.


What of the testimony of the family who is faithful to God even despite this tragedy? I have a friend whose father was a preacher and died a slow, agonizing death of cancer. Her and her sister's Faiths were nearly destroyed. I had the opportunity to basically just encourage her to not forget about the Grace and Love of God. She is slowly starting to find her way back to Christ. He is working in her life as long as she continues to respond to Him. What a great testimony she will have of God's love and Grace when she is able to tell people about her pain, rebellion, and ultimate restoration in Christ.Thank you for sharing this.

I don’t think “health and prosperity” are necessarily the “good” spoken of here. However, I do believe it most specifically relates to this age.
I don't, either. That was poor wording on my part. In clarification, I would say that "good" = the good of the Kingdom of God, which translates to our own good.

Jesus had to suffer, not because He wanted, neither because He had a weakness.

Jesus had to suffer, not because He wanted, neither because He had a weakness.

What was the purpose in Jesus suffering? Jesus had to suffer to atone for us. We do not atone for ourselves. He was a substitute.

What was the purpose in Jesus suffering? Jesus had to suffer to atone for us. We do not atone for ourselves. He was a substitute.

Yes, but there was also a specific purpose in Job's and Paul's suffering. I'm thinking if this purpose is the main reason for the suffering of some Christians. Maybe this sounds as giving credit to Satan while considering Christians powerless. However, I think that's not the case if one is truly able to embrace the difficulties. A matter of perspective, I guess.

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Somewhere, maybe in the book of Enoch it talked about Job and his problem with worms. When he noticed a worm crawling out of his arm, he pushed it back with a finger and told it to stay inside because he wasn't going to run away from the punishment and had grown attached to it. I don't think Satan saw that coming. ;)

Yes, but there was also a specific purpose in Job's and Paul's suffering. I'm thinking if this purpose is the main reason for the suffering of some Christians. Maybe this sounds as giving credit to Satan while considering Christians powerless. However, I think that's not the case if one is truly able to embrace the difficulties. A matter of perspective, I guess.

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Somewhere, maybe in the book of Enoch it talked about Job and his problem with worms. When he noticed a worm crawling out of his arm, he pushed it back with a finger and told it to stay inside because he wasn't going to run away from the punishment and had grown attached to it. I don't think Satan saw that coming. ;)

I do not plan to start building doctrine on the lost books anytime soon.

The fight is not between Satan and man, ( humanity ), the fight is between Satan and God for Satan deceived God creation for which, God will destroy Satan.

The Son of God, JESUS, gave His life so that man, (humanity) may be redeemed of the original Sin, Satan no longer has any influence on Humanity, all of the suffering is caused by the choices Humanity make.

God would not interfere with humanity's choices for that would be control and not love also, it would imply that God did not create man, (humanity) to His own image for it would imply humanity can not choose as God can.

The cataclysms must also be allowed to happen for man, (humanity), had to have a place to go, separate from Heaven or else it would not have been possible to be separate, from the spirit of God, there had to be a form, place, universe or flesh in order for God's plan to be complete and prove that, He created man, (humanity) to his image for only God can do so.

I hope I am not confusing anyone but, it is the only way it all make sense.

WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, SATAN LOOSES ALL HIS POWER

I do not plan to start building doctrine on the lost books anytime soon.

Reynolds357, I believe Finding joy in suffering is very much a biblical concept:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pet. 4 KJV)

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. (Jam. 1 NIV)

Reynolds357, I believe Finding joy in suffering is very much a biblical concept:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (1 Pet. 4 KJV)

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. (Jam. 1 NIV)

The problem is most christians do not have enough sense to know the suffering is an attack of Satan and they do not resist it. The model of Job patiently enduring an attack from satan is the exact opposite of what a new covenant believer is supposed to do.

The problem is most christians do not have enough sense to know the suffering is an attack of Satan and they do not resist it.

A Christian with lack of spiritual discernment is an easy target for Satan. Agreed.


The model of Job patiently enduring an attack from satan is the exact opposite of what a new covenant believer is supposed to do.

I don't agree with that because in my opinion you overgeneralize the purpose of Satan so that it becomens blurry why he exists other than to harass people. I don't believe anything that Satan does is good. But Satan does have a purpose, and it's for the benefit of man, and God.

God uses Satan to test people and that hasn't changed after the New Covenant. God placed Satan in the garden of Eden to test Adam, not to attack him. Through Satan God's plan was accomplished, and it hasn't ended yet.

Also Job was tested by Satan. God laid out clear guidelines to Satan on what He was to allowed to do to Job. Satan thought that Job would end up mocking God. But he resisted. The NT is clear that Christians need endurance.

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I have a feeling that we might be talking about two different things: the oppression / attacks of Satan, brought by man upon himself vs. the testing and refinement, blessed by the Father. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A Christian with lack of spiritual discernment is an easy target for Satan. Agreed.



I don't agree with that because in my opinion you overgeneralize the purpose of Satan so that it becomens blurry why he exists other than to harass people. I don't believe anything that Satan does is good. But Satan does have a purpose, and it's for the benefit of man, and God.

God uses Satan to test people and that hasn't changed after the New Covenant. God placed Satan in the garden of Eden to test Adam, not to attack him. Through Satan God's plan was accomplished, and it hasn't ended yet.

Also Job was tested by Satan. God laid out clear guidelines to Satan on what He was to allowed to do to Job. Satan thought that Job would end up mocking God. But he resisted. The NT is clear that Christians need endurance.

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I have a feeling that we might be talking about two different things: the oppression / attacks of Satan, brought by man upon himself vs. the testing and refinement, blessed by the Father. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The purpose of Lucifer was to be a ministering sprit and anointed cherub. Lucifer rebelled. Satan is not God's little messenger boy that God sends out to steal, kill, and destroy for Him. When you look at the ministry of Jesus (God incarnate) it is obvious that He and Satan were not exactly best buddies. God teaches us through His Word and The Holy Spirit. Satan comes to steal kill and destroy. Christ came to give us life and life more abundantly. Abundant life and stealing and destroying have a major compatibility problem. God does not need Satan. His children do stupid things that Give Satan inroad into their lives. Satan comes in and steals,kills, and destroys. God can take the mess that we and Satan made and turn it for our good, but it was never His plan for us to make the mess in the first place.

The purpose of Lucifer was to be a ministering sprit and anointed cherub. Lucifer rebelled. Satan is not God's little messenger boy that God sends out to steal, kill, and destroy for Him. When you look at the ministry of Jesus (God incarnate) it is obvious that He and Satan were not exactly best buddies. God teaches us through His Word and The Holy Spirit. Satan comes to steal kill and destroy. Christ came to give us life and life more abundantly. Abundant life and stealing and destroying have a major compatibility problem. God does not need Satan. His children do stupid things that Give Satan inroad into their lives. Satan comes in and steals,kills, and destroys. God can take the mess that we and Satan made and turn it for our good, but it was never His plan for us to make the mess in the first place.I just love this post!