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Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 08:12 PM
I was wondering if there is such a thing as Death Bed Repentance. Let say you lived your life apart from God (had many changes though to live for God but did not) then minutes/seconds before you go to the great beyond you ask for salvation.
It just does not make any sence to me but maybe to others it adds up.
I know there are many well versed people here, please give me your input.
If there are other threads that answer this direct me, I did not find any.

Vhayes
Feb 28th 2011, 08:14 PM
First off - why or rather what makes no sense to you?

* - that the person actually WOULD repent?

or

* - that they would be saved?

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 08:16 PM
Then why Live for God at all if at the last second you could make it all well.



First off - why or rather what makes no sense to you?

* - that the person actually WOULD repent?

or

* - that they would be saved?

Vhayes
Feb 28th 2011, 08:22 PM
I'm still not following you? Sorry.

No one I know nor that I have ever heard of with the possible exception of Constantine has ever hedged their bets in that manner. An acceptance of the Lord Jesus as your personal savior is not something that you "know" but decide to hold off on.

As far as death bed conversions, there is scripture to support it. The thief on the cross is perhaps the best example but there is also this section of Matthew 20:
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;

4and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.

5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.

6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'

7"They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'

9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.

10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.

11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,

12saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13"But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 08:27 PM
All those in the parable obeyed and went to work when called. Death bed repentance is equivalent to the first hour man saying, "It's to early; I'll wait to the eleventh hour." Would he have been accepted?

LookingUp
Feb 28th 2011, 08:28 PM
I was wondering if there is such a thing as Death Bed Repentance. Let say you lived your life apart from God (had many changes though to live for God but did not) then minutes/seconds before you go to the great beyond you ask for salvation.
It just does not make any sence to me but maybe to others it adds up.
I know there are many well versed people here, please give me your input.
If there are other threads that answer this direct me, I did not find any.The thief on the cross proves it's possible.

Vhayes
Feb 28th 2011, 08:28 PM
It would all depend on his heart. God knows, not me.

Sorry - that's a clear as I can be.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2011, 08:30 PM
I don't think that death-bed repentance is a bad thing by any means, but I think that repentance is better when one can show that they have improved. If one is a thief, and they repent and stop stealing, it's obviously better than a thief repenting on their deathbed when they cannot demonstrate to God that they actually take the lesson to heart.

PrayerInMemphis
Feb 28th 2011, 08:35 PM
like the thief on the cross,
someone that experiences salvation moments before death will not miss out on heaven, but obviously he would miss out on the victory of knowing Christ, loving Christ and walking with Him during his time here on earth. which in my opinion, is a terrible thing to miss.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 08:35 PM
If you can guarantee the exact (1) time and (2)date of your death, and if you can guarantee that (3)God will always strive with or call to repentance, then waiting for death bed repentance works just fine.

But, since you can't guarantee either 1, 2 or 3, it seems a bit foolish.

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 08:37 PM
The Thief On The Cross was never offered salvation before. He lived under the Law.


The thief on the cross proves it's possible.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 08:43 PM
Faith was faith either before or after the cross.

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 08:47 PM
Maybe so, but the faith in the Old Testament did not bring Salvation as we know it to be. There were certain things required on that side of the cross that are not required on this side.


Faith was faith either before or after the cross.

jayne
Feb 28th 2011, 08:50 PM
I wholeheartedly believe in death-bed confessions of Jesus Christ as Savior. I believe in early-age confessions of Jesus Christ as Savior. I'm all for ANY confession of Jesus Christ as LORD, no matter the hour of life.

Vhayes scripture that she cited was the one that I was going to explain.

Obviously, we are to repent early for the "time is now!" And a person who purposely says "no" to Christ and intentionally plans on reciting some unmeaningful words of a ungenuine repentence at his deathbed will more than likely never do so.

I BELIEVE in reaching the dying for Christ. I pray a good bit, in mostly generic terms, for God to save those who are dying and who are lost. My pastor and other people have counseled with many dying people who have never given their life to Christ and who in regret, believe it to be too late. So many times those people have believed the lie of Satan that they were too "bad" in life and that God gave up on them a long time ago. What a JOY for them to discover that even in the shadow of death, that God still loves them dearly and desires for them to be saved.

I've seen it too many time not to believe that it's a wonderful thing to be saved - hopefully at an early age and to live a long life for Christ - but ultimately at ANY age and at any stage of life. And I've heard testimony from family members who were so relieved when dying loved ones FINALLY submitted to the truth that they are nothing without the grace of God and His mercy.

The book of James says that life is a vapor. It's the truth. And until the last breath is drawn, ANYONE has an opportunity to be saved - and should be witnessed to and counseled.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 08:52 PM
Maybe so, but the faith in the Old Testament did not bring Salvation as we know it to be. There were certain things required on that side of the cross that are not required on this side.

Absolutely untrue.

There is now and has only ever been one means of salvation. Grace, through faith. No one has ever been saved by works or obedience.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2011, 08:56 PM
Absolutely untrue.

There is now and has only ever been one means of salvation. Grace, through faith. No one has ever been saved by works or obedience.

A bit surprised to hear you in particular say this. Then what changed with Jesus?

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 28th 2011, 09:06 PM
Hi Sig. Interesting topic :)


The Thief On The Cross was never offered salvation before. He lived under the Law.
I wonder, why do you think that makes any difference? He was saved without any evidence of repentance on his part, that much is certain. We've all heard stories of people who hit their lowest ebb before the Holy Spirit got through to them: what lower ebb than moments from the end of a life, wasted half-lived?

Of course, there's no way we can know what someone's state of salvation is, regardless of circumstance. But, just as much as I'm inclined to believe that, for example, my dear brother Ralph (who has devoted 60-odd years to bringing children to know the Truth, and seems to shine out with God's love as if he had gone to glory already) is sealed with the Spirit - I can't see cause to doubt when there are stories of staggering, absolute changes of heart (common to many who find new life in Christ) from people who just happen to be in the hospital bed, and soon to depart. I've even heard truly compelling accounts from members of this very board, though naturally wouldn't take such liberties as to repeat them. I suppose I'd have to turn the question around - when the Bible seems to offer us a very concrete example, and our own experience in this day and age would incline us to believe just the same - why should we doubt?


Then why Live for God at all if at the last second you could make it all well.
Because it's better! I'm certain wiser men than I have said it before, and a good sight better to - but for me, even if the utterly, entirely impossible were to happen, and tomorrow someone were to prove it all a lie - I should continue to live striving to follow God's perfect guidance, because in my experience it is INFINITELY superior to the alternative! So much better, that to define my "life" before Christ with the same word seems profoundly inappropriate.

It reminds me of the argument that Paul had to counter - if we're not under the law any more, does that mean we get to just carry on sinning? I've always thought this such a desperately misguided viewpoint, as if sin genuinely is something wonderful, as if it offers a more fulfilling life than striving for holiness and knowing the indwelling of God... The real question should be, "How blind are we men, that even when we know the truth of the nature of sin, we can convince ourselves it is some luxury of which God would deprive us?"

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 09:08 PM
First of all, where does it say the Thief was saved?


Hi Sig. Interesting topic :)


I wonder, why do you think that makes any difference? He was saved without any evidence of repentance on his part, that much is certain. We've all heard stories of people who hit their lowest ebb before the Holy Spirit got through to them: what lower ebb than moments from the end of a life, wasted half-lived?

Of course, there's no way we can know what someone's state of salvation is, regardless of circumstance. But, just as much as I'm inclined to believe that, for example, my dear brother Ralph (who has devoted 60-odd years to bringing children to know the Truth, and seems to shine out with God's love as if he had gone to glory already) is sealed with the Spirit - I can't see cause to doubt when there are stories of staggering, absolute changes of heart (common to many who find new life in Christ) from people who just happen to be in the hospital bed, and soon to depart. I've even heard truly compelling accounts from members of this very board, though naturally wouldn't take such liberties as to repeat them. I suppose I'd have to turn the question around - when the Bible seems to offer us a very concrete example, and our own experience in this day and age would incline us to believe just the same - why should we doubt?


Because it's better! I'm certain wiser men than I have said it before, and a good sight better to - but for me, even if the utterly, entirely impossible were to happen, and tomorrow someone were to prove it all a lie - I should continue to live striving to follow God's perfect guidance, because in my experience it is INFINITELY superior to the alternative! So much better, that to define my "life" before Christ with the same word seems profoundly inappropriate.

It reminds me of the argument that Paul had to counter - if we're not under the law any more, does that mean we get to just carry on sinning? I've always thought this such a desperately misguided viewpoint, as if sin genuinely is something wonderful, as if it offers a more fulfilling life than striving for holiness and knowing the indwelling of God... The real question should be, "How blind are we men, that even when we know the truth of the nature of sin, we can convince ourselves it is some luxury of which God would deprive us?"

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 28th 2011, 09:10 PM
First of all, where does it say the Theif was saved?
The words of Christ to him guarantee his salvation. It's rare we can be so absolutely certain as in his instance.

janitor
Feb 28th 2011, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Sig Sauer
...but the faith in the Old Testament did not bring Salvation as we know it to be.
Yes, it did, because the OT and NT teach the same things:

"And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Gal.3:17

Vhayes
Feb 28th 2011, 09:15 PM
The Thief On The Cross was never offered salvation before. He lived under the Law.

If he believed in the coming Messiah, he certainly knew the way of salvation - and it was NEVER the law.

I think he may have realized he was face to face with his promised Messiah while he was on the cross and that the Messiah HAD come.

notuptome
Feb 28th 2011, 09:18 PM
The main caveat with death bed conversions is that the vast majority of the time the plea to God is not for redemption but for another breath. That is not to say that a plea for salvation is any less efficacious moments before death than any onter time in ones life but the first desire of the unsaved soul is for more life not for the application of Christs blood.

Possible yes...likely no.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

TomH
Feb 28th 2011, 09:20 PM
A bit surprised to hear you in particular say this. Then what changed with Jesus?

After hanging around us Christans for so long, I'm surptised that you're surprised.

To Christians, it has always been Jesus that has been THE sacrifice, that all sacrifices were representative of. That is where the faith is.

ImmenseDisciple
Feb 28th 2011, 09:23 PM
I feel like I want to do a mini-study of the thief on the cross, now! It's only as I'm reading it now that I can see how much we can say for certain of him, despite his incredibly brief appearance in scripture:


One of the criminals who were hanged railed at Him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And He said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

1) He was humble, and recognised himself a sinner
2) He recognised Christ as sinless
3) He acknowledged that though Christ was about to die, He was in truth bound for kingship
4) He hadn't even the audacity to request anything of Christ, beyond "remember me when you are in your kingdom"
5) He was bound for paradise

Fenris
Feb 28th 2011, 09:28 PM
After hanging around us Christans for so long, I'm surptised that you're surprised.

To Christians, it has always been Jesus that has been THE sacrifice, that all sacrifices were representative of. That is where the faith is.I was under the impression that the whole point of Jesus's coming was to anounce that faith saves. Certainly in the past RK has posted that Jesus's coming changed people's outlook, from action-based to faith-based. Unless I misunderstood him.

RabbiKnife
Feb 28th 2011, 09:42 PM
Nothing, except that the sacrifice was finished once and for all.

Before Christ, the penalty of sin was never finished...It was just rolled forward.
After Christ, the penalty of sin was forever finished.

But regardless of the time in which one lived, the only means of faith was that which was found by Abraham...faith. Faith in God to be merciful and to respond to those of faith has always been the standard.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2011, 09:46 PM
Nothing, except that the sacrifice was finished once and for all.

Yes, I see...............

Sig Sauer
Feb 28th 2011, 10:00 PM
Make sure and share with the rest of us!!


I feel like I want to do a mini-study of the thief on the cross, now! It's only as I'm reading it now that I can see how much we can say for certain of him, despite his incredibly brief appearance in scripture:



1) He was humble, and recognised himself a sinner
2) He recognised Christ as sinless
3) He acknowledged that though Christ was about to die, He was in truth bound for kingship
4) He hadn't even the audacity to request anything of Christ, beyond "remember me when you are in your kingdom"
5) He was bound for paradise

tango
Feb 28th 2011, 10:03 PM
Then why Live for God at all if at the last second you could make it all well.

First off you can repent at any time until you draw your last breath. The thief on the cross beside Jesus repented very shortly before he died and Jesus promised him a place in paradise. Matthew 20 has a good analogy of how it works.

You could take a huge risk by living life as if there were no God and hoping to repent at the last minute. Of course that assumes you know when your last breath will be. It also makes no sense at all as a life strategy. If you don't believe in God there's no reason to repent at the last minute, and if you do believe in a God why not reap the blessings available on this earh as well as the reward in heaven?

notuptome
Feb 28th 2011, 10:15 PM
Why would we not want death bed conversions? Isn't any conversion to Christ infinitely better than a Christless eternity? Praise God for every soul rescued from eternal death by the blood of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 10:28 PM
The thief on the cross proves it's possible.

AMEN!

Also there is a parable about field workers and the ones who come to work in the last hour getting the same wages.

God is unique, certainly, even more so He does not recognize human pride. His soverignty belongs to Him and HIm only. As it is written: Salvation is of the LORD. Not of our understanding of things.

It is rather sad though that a person on his deathbed missed out on a most awesome jouney.

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 10:29 PM
Maybe so, but the faith in the Old Testament did not bring Salvation as we know it to be. There were certain things required on that side of the cross that are not required on this side.

Really. I'll remember to ask Abraham about that when I get there. :)

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 10:32 PM
First of all, where does it say the Thief was saved?

Just asking a question for clarification: Do you subscribe to replacement theology?

I believe Jesus said: "you will be with Me in Gan-Eden."
Gan-Eden is supposidly where the saints before Jesus came hung out waitinig for the Gospel.

Fenris
Feb 28th 2011, 10:32 PM
Maybe so, but the faith in the Old Testament did not bring Salvation as we know it to be. There were certain things required on that side of the cross that are not required on this side.I think this is an interesting concept.

keck553
Feb 28th 2011, 10:38 PM
I think this is an interesting concept.

Why is faith different now than then?

Sig Sauer is alluding that a person repent some period of time before they die. Who is going to mark that time? What is it? 1 second? An hour? A day? Time enough to do one good work? Many works? Who makes that call?

Bottom line is this: Who saves whom He wants to save? Us or God? How do we know the mind of God that we can say "well, he repented in his last breath, how rude because I lived a whole life in obedience!" Come on, if one gripes or brags about their obedience, then their obedience is worthless dung.

Firefighter
Feb 28th 2011, 10:42 PM
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Sig Sauer
Mar 1st 2011, 12:08 AM
Well then, Are we promised Paradise also?
Is Heaven and Paradise the same thing?
Paul said ours is a Higher Calling, what does that mean?


Just asking a question for clarification: Do you subscribe to replacement theology?

I believe Jesus said: "you will be with Me in Gan-Eden."
Gan-Eden is supposidly where the saints before Jesus came hung out waitinig for the Gospel.

Sig Sauer
Mar 1st 2011, 12:12 AM
What does this have to do with Death Bed Repentance?
Ill ask you the same question
All those in the parable obeyed and went to work when called. Death bed repentance is equivalent to the first hour man saying, "It's to early; I'll wait to the eleventh hour." Would he have been accepted?


AMEN!

Also there is a parable about field workers and the ones who come to work in the last hour getting the same wages.

God is unique, certainly, even more so He does not recognize human pride. His soverignty belongs to Him and HIm only. As it is written: Salvation is of the LORD. Not of our understanding of things.

It is rather sad though that a person on his deathbed missed out on a most awesome jouney.

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 12:13 AM
Well then, Are we promised Paradise also?
No. I believe my comment was self-explanitory. I can re-phrase it it's unclear to you.



Is Heaven and Paradise the same thing?
No. Again, I believe my comment was self-explanetory.


Paul said ours is a Higher Calling, what does that mean?

Higher than what? Please provide context.

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 12:26 AM
What does this have to do with Death Bed Repentance?
Ill ask you the same question
All those in the parable obeyed and went to work when called. Death bed repentance is equivalent to the first hour man saying, "It's to early; I'll wait to the eleventh hour." Would he have been accepted?

You're introducing a Blaise Pascal condition into the OP, and assuming that by default every person on their deathbed applied this principle to their life. Under these conditions, your question is irrelivent because you've pre-judged a condition that may or may not exist.

So my question to you is what is the magical time a person must repent and accept the Gospel as truth before he / she dies? A week? Month? Year? What if a 18 year old turns to God and dies a minute later from an accident? Show me Scripture that defines a time line when someone must turn to God. Scripture certainly indicates that "now" is the time, but I don't see that in Scripture as a condition for Salvation.

Do you really think it matters to the Shepard if He's found His lost sheep after 1 minute or after 70 years?

LookingUp
Mar 1st 2011, 12:30 AM
What does this have to do with Death Bed Repentance?
Ill ask you the same question
All those in the parable obeyed and went to work when called. Death bed repentance is equivalent to the first hour man saying, "It's to early; I'll wait to the eleventh hour." Would he have been accepted?Are you skipping over posts that clearly answer your question for a reason? Are you trying to learn something here or trying to prove some doctrine you're not willing to give up on?

Didn't you read Firefighter's post above? It doesn't say, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness, unless we're on our death bed." Do you get it now?

ProjectPeter
Mar 1st 2011, 12:34 AM
Simple. If a person played life as if it was just a crap shoot that they'd go through and at that last minute utter that prayer... God knows the heart and I wouldn't want to be in their place. Personally... I figure they're pretty much going to find it a rough eternity. If they are sincere of heart... then God is both faithful and just to forgive them that sin. Pretty simple really. No one is going to jerk God's chain and slide in just because they follow an action in rote.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:39 AM
Let's suppose I live my life any way I choose, doing evil and sinning against God and God's creation. Suppose I do this keeping some sort of repentance strategy in my back pocket for my last moments and actually am able to utter some sort of "I'm sorry" to the Lord before I shuffle to the place prepared. I agree with those who said that the Lord looks at the heart.

ProjectPeter
Mar 1st 2011, 12:46 AM
Let's suppose I live my life any way I choose, doing evil and sinning against God and God's creation. Suppose I do this keeping some sort of repentance strategy in my back pocket for my last moments and actually am able to utter some sort of "I'm sorry" to the Lord before I shuffle to the place prepared. I agree with those who said that the Lord looks at the heart.I suspect if that was the strategy... hope they enjoyed life because eternity is likely going to be one hell of a place... literally. :)

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:48 AM
I suspect if that was the strategy... hope they enjoyed life because eternity is likely going to be one hell of a place... literally. :)

And of those who camp out as close as they can to sin without doing something which is obviously evil?

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 12:58 AM
Let's suppose I live my life any way I choose, doing evil and sinning against God and God's creation. Suppose I do this keeping some sort of repentance strategy in my back pocket for my last moments and actually am able to utter some sort of "I'm sorry" to the Lord before I shuffle to the place prepared. I agree with those who said that the Lord looks at the heart.

I doubt anyone who has 'salvation in their back pocket' like a lucky rabbit's foot or something could change his heart in a moment, even facing death. A hardened heart is the result of living under the sun, so to speak. But that said -

Why is it that we finite humans always want to put ourselves in God's judgement seat? What is it? Vanity? Are we jealous that Jesus extended His invitation to the dying zealot? What is it? Don't you want to see the bully who made your life hell for a while in heaven? I do! Come, if the angels rejoice and sing praises to God for another soul saved, what gives us an excuse for reluctance to do so? How can we truely fear God if we value His mighty works and soverignty on a human scale?

By the righteous standards of God's Law, I am not worthy to spend 1 fraction of a second in God's presence, let alone eternity. Why would anyone want to sully God's Glory or shorten His outstreched arm because someone didn't repent 'at the right time,' whatever that means. If God can save my nasty carcass, then I will not only pray for, but sing praises to God for His salvation to my worse nemesis.

ProjectPeter
Mar 1st 2011, 12:59 AM
And of those who camp out as close as they can to sin without doing something which is obviously evil?

If that's the plan and intent of their heart... hope they like very dark living spaces for very long periods of time. That is liable to be a handy thing come one day. I know there are folks that toy with God in such a way... I suspect that is because they suffer from what a lot of folks do. They know about God somewhat... but they don't know God.

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 01:00 AM
And of those who camp out as close as they can to sin without doing something which is obviously evil?

There are two races on this earth. The saved and the unsaved. One can either choose to accept the invitation or reject it. If we have accepted the Gospel and know Jesus, certainly we know the answer to these questions, so why are we asking them?

ProjectPeter
Mar 1st 2011, 01:02 AM
There are two races on this earth. The saved and the unsaved. One can either choose to accept the invitation or reject it. If we have accepted the Gospel and know Jesus, certainly we know the answer to these questions, so why are we asking them?

It's a message board where folks discuss stuff. Call it a hunch and all... but betting that has something to do with it. In the question... there is a teaching for those willing to listen. :lol:

Vhayes
Mar 1st 2011, 02:00 AM
I'll add this bit for thought.

I had an uncle who repeatedly heard the gospel yet could not/would not let go of works. No one measured up in his eyes with the possible exception of Billy Graham. He was one of the MOST judgemental men I have ever met. But he would tell you he lived his life for the Lord because he would be judges by his works.

I know for a fact that God used his mortal illness, those who cared for him and every circumstance that came his way the last year of his life to point the man to grace. None of it worked. I also know he was in a coma the final 10 days of his life and God was still trying to get through to him. I don't know if He did or not but my uncle fought, literally kicking and screaming, all the way to the end.

ProDeo
Mar 1st 2011, 10:53 AM
I was wondering if there is such a thing as Death Bed Repentance. Let say you lived your life apart from God (had many changes though to live for God but did not) then minutes/seconds before you go to the great beyond you ask for salvation.
It just does not make any sence to me but maybe to others it adds up.
I know there are many well versed people here, please give me your input.
If there are other threads that answer this direct me, I did not find any.

But I know you, that you do not have the love of God within you.
-- Jesus Christ

Nevertheless his/her works will be judged.

1 Cor 3:13-15 Each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

So I guess most (if not all) his/her works will burn (loads of shame) but the person is saved.

Love and righteousness. It's who He is.

Isn't that great?

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 12:40 PM
Why is faith different now than then?

Ok let's walk through this.

According to Christians: Prior to Jesus, faith in God was sufficient. Now it is not. Now one must also believe that Jesus was sacrificed for man's sin. Yes? No?

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:41 PM
Ok let's walk through this.

According to Christians: Prior to Jesus, faith in God was sufficient. Now it is not. Now one must also believe that Jesus was sacrificed for man's sin. Yes? No?

So that we can be forgiven our sins, yes.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:41 PM
So that we can be forgiven our sins, yes.

Because by the law, we can not be declared righteous.

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 12:42 PM
So that we can be forgiven our sins, yes.

OK. This means that something did change when Jesus came.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:43 PM
OK. This means that something did change when Jesus came.

Absolutely, though more something changed when He died and was raised to life again.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:44 PM
Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 12:46 PM
So Sig is vindicated. He was correct when he said


There were certain things required on that side of the cross that are not required on this side.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 12:50 PM
So Sig is vindicated. He was correct when he said

They are still required, but paid for by Christ.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 01:09 PM
They are still required, but paid for by Christ.

Just for fun:

Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Matthew 27:28
They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 01:14 PM
Just for fun:

I find the random verse matching arther unconvincing. Regardless, the very existence of the NT means that it created a new set of beliefs to be followed.

andrew_no_one
Mar 1st 2011, 01:15 PM
I find the random verse matching arther unconvincing. Regardless, the very existence of the NT means that it created a new set of beliefs to be followed.

Those two aren't random my friend. Check them in context. :)

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 01:38 PM
Those two aren't random my friend. Check them in context. :)

OK, so someone read the OT and wrote a "corresponding" NT verse. Better?

Firefighter
Mar 1st 2011, 02:05 PM
So what's the problem? I don't get it. Are we mad because we are living this boring, do nothing, have no fun Christian life while others get to live as they want, enjoy all the sinful pleasures of this world, and still have the last minute chance to get into heaven? If so, then we have a VERY big kink in our think about Christianity in general and forgiveness. I live life to the fullest, have more fun than I probably should, and gladly rejoice when someone accepts Christ as Savior, even if it is at the last minute.

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 02:29 PM
OK, so someone read the OT and wrote a "corresponding" NT verse. Better?

Per God's instruction.

TomH
Mar 1st 2011, 02:31 PM
I really don't see a problem. Each day we spend after Salvation is an opportunity to invest in your retirement account.

For each act of righteousness that we are blessed to be a part of, God enters into our account a reward. If a person should happen to reach salvation on his deat bed, it simply means his retirement isn't going to have much interest built up in his IRA. Big deal. The important thing is where you're going to spend your retirement. Heaven is heaven.

I'll, be happy whether I receive a mansion in a gated community, or a heavenly trailer park. The streets are all going to be paved with gold.

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 02:44 PM
Per God's instruction.

Oh, of course, of course.

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 02:47 PM
Oh, of course, of course.

Since the Old Testament is rather silent on the issue I am surprised that you are commenting.

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 02:49 PM
Since the Old Testament is rather silent on the issue I am surprised that you are commenting.

Silent on what issue?

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 02:52 PM
Silent on what issue?

Eternal life, isn't that what is being discussed?

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 03:01 PM
Eternal life, isn't that what is being discussed?

What, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

Firefighter
Mar 1st 2011, 03:04 PM
What, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

Yes, you are more than allowed to have an opinion, as long as it agrees with mine. :D

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 03:06 PM
Yes, you are more than allowed to have an opinion, as long as it agrees with mine. :D

Ah. The comedy film meets the action/adventure flick. Hilarity and building explosions ensue...

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 03:08 PM
What, I'm not allowed to have an opinion?

New Testament Bad, New Testament Bad, New Testament Bad. This thread is about death bed repentance, and whether that person can attain eternal life through that repentance. The book of Job indicates that in this life only do we make choices that determine where we spend eternity.

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 03:10 PM
This thread is about death bed repentance, and whether that person can attain eternal life through that repentance.
And you expect this to be the one thread on this forum that doen't go off-topic? :lol: Really, now.

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 03:18 PM
And you expect this to be the one thread on this forum that doen't go off-topic? :lol: Really, now.

In most cases when you attack the New Testament it usually relates to something that can be found in the Old Testament, but in this case there is no relationship.

tango
Mar 1st 2011, 03:20 PM
Simple. If a person played life as if it was just a crap shoot that they'd go through and at that last minute utter that prayer... God knows the heart and I wouldn't want to be in their place. Personally... I figure they're pretty much going to find it a rough eternity. If they are sincere of heart... then God is both faithful and just to forgive them that sin. Pretty simple really. No one is going to jerk God's chain and slide in just because they follow an action in rote.

I agree.

1Co 3:11-15 NKJV For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. (14) If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. (15) If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I can't imagine it would be a whole lot of fun to escape as if through fire, watching your entire life's works burned before you, knowing what blessings you might have missed out on, and that your entire life had been living a lie.

Which goes back to the question, if you sincerely believe in God why not accept God right now and start living for God? If you don't believe, what sense does it make to believe that God will accept an "oh &%$@, I'm about to die, HEEEELLLLLPPPPPP" as sincerely crying out?

rejoice44
Mar 1st 2011, 03:31 PM
I agree.

1Co 3:11-15 NKJV For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, (13) each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. (14) If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. (15) If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I can't imagine it would be a whole lot of fun to escape as if through fire, watching your entire life's works burned before you, knowing what blessings you might have missed out on, and that your entire life had been living a lie.

Which goes back to the question, if you sincerely believe in God why not accept God right now and start living for God? If you don't believe, what sense does it make to believe that God will accept an "oh &%$@, I'm about to die, HEEEELLLLLPPPPPP" as sincerely crying out?

While I agree with what you say, does this mean someone who is on their deathbed shouldn't be witnessed to.

tango
Mar 1st 2011, 04:59 PM
While I agree with what you say, does this mean someone who is on their deathbed shouldn't be witnessed to.

Definitely not. My point was that people who believe in God enough to want to slip a last minute repentance before they breathe their last but at the same time don't believe in God enough to repent before then, might reflect on how sincere their "last breath" repentance would actually be.

If someone is on their death bed we have no way of knowing if they have ever heard the gospel, ever considered it might apply to them, or ever thought about it. There's a world of difference between someone on their death bed who has never heard or never really listened, and someone on their death bed who has always been afraid of the fires of hell but figured they'd live for now and repent later.

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 05:09 PM
Ok let's walk through this.

According to Christians: Prior to Jesus, faith in God was sufficient. Now it is not. Now one must also believe that Jesus was sacrificed for man's sin. Yes? No?

This is a good question. In Paul's letter to the Romans he compares the faith I should have with the faith Abraham had. Does that make sense to you?

Fenris
Mar 1st 2011, 05:19 PM
This is a good question. In Paul's letter to the Romans he compares the faith I should have with the faith Abraham had. Does that make sense to you?

To me? Obviously not.

RollTide21
Mar 1st 2011, 05:37 PM
What does this have to do with Death Bed Repentance?
Ill ask you the same question
All those in the parable obeyed and went to work when called. Death bed repentance is equivalent to the first hour man saying, "It's to early; I'll wait to the eleventh hour." Would he have been accepted?I think this is the key point in this thread. The person who "plans" to be saved right before he dies is different from the Thief on the Cross, who it is assumed was in unbelief and rebellion until discovering the Truth.

I don't know what God has in store for each individual, obviously, but it seems to me that the question is moot. If a person says, "I'll just wait until I die and then get right with God" then they don't know Him who they claim to be waiting for. In that case, who will they call upon before Death? Man must know the Grace of God through the Spirit before they can accept Christ in Faith. The person who rationalizes that they can wait until their deathbed isn't basing that on a knowledge of that Grace.

An important distinction should be made between the person described above and the guy who KNOWS the Truth, but is putting off submitting himself. I know plenty of people who would say they are saved and, I believe, know the Holy Spirit, but are unwilling to surrender their lives to Christ. These are not people who would think it OK to "get right with God just before I die." These are simply people who are afraid to give up their lives to follow Christ and are basically taking a big risk.

RollTide21
Mar 1st 2011, 05:39 PM
Simple. If a person played life as if it was just a crap shoot that they'd go through and at that last minute utter that prayer... God knows the heart and I wouldn't want to be in their place. Personally... I figure they're pretty much going to find it a rough eternity. If they are sincere of heart... then God is both faithful and just to forgive them that sin. Pretty simple really. No one is going to jerk God's chain and slide in just because they follow an action in rote.I mean...plretty much this.

RollTide21
Mar 1st 2011, 05:41 PM
I suspect if that was the strategy... hope they enjoyed life because eternity is likely going to be one hell of a place... literally. :)I don't know how a person could truly KNOW the God we serve and justify that "strategy". Like I said above, I know plenty of people who are unwilling to submit to God and are risking eternity in doing so, but the person who tries to "plan" salvation hasn't been reached by the One they plan to call upon.

notuptome
Mar 1st 2011, 05:47 PM
I don't know how a person could truly KNOW the God we serve and justify that "strategy". Like I said above, I know plenty of people who are unwilling to submit to God and are risking eternity in doing so, but the person who tries to "plan" salvation hasn't been reached by the One they plan to call upon.
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him. John 6:44

For the cause of Christ
Roger

RollTide21
Mar 1st 2011, 05:51 PM
No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him. John 6:44

For the cause of Christ
RogerPrecisely.......

LookingUp
Mar 1st 2011, 05:56 PM
Ok let's walk through this.

According to Christians: Prior to Jesus, faith in God was sufficient.It is still sufficient. If a man has never set eyes on the Bible before, but recognizes and embraces God revealed to him in creation and on his heart (“law written on his heart”), his life will reflect what he believes. This faith will save him. If God eventually reveals Himself to this man through the Hebrew Scriptures, he will be responsible for that. If God reveals Himself through Christ to this man, he will be responsible for that. In all cases, it is faith in God that saves.


Now it is not. Now one must also believe that Jesus was sacrificed for man's sin. Yes? No?To the degree God reveals Himself to an individual he is responsible for how he responds to it. If the man always believed in the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, but rejects Christ, he has rejected the fullest and most complete revelation of God to mankind. In other words, when one rejects Christ, one rejects God. His faith in the God of the Hebrew Scriptures becomes suspect. But, of course, God judges the heart, not man.

keck553
Mar 1st 2011, 07:30 PM
To me? Obviously not.

You do not understand the definition of faith is consistent throughout your canon and my canon?

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