We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.

We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.

Yes. God KNOWS all things - He does not "force" things.

Not only that, He also knows what would have happened to all the people we would touch in our lives IF we had made other choices. That's a mind boggler for you :-) - at least it is for me.

Yes. God KNOWS all things - He does not "force" things.

Not only that, He also knows what would have happened to all the people we would touch in our lives IF we had made other choices. That's a mind boggler for you :-) - at least it is for me.

WOW I never thought of it that way.

We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.No. Predestination only has to do with with what those who believe will receive. It has nothing to do with who will receive.

No. Predestination only has to do with with what those who believe will receive. It has nothing to do with who will receive.

what??
I'm saying we have free will to become a child of God or .....NOT.
God knows which choice we will make in the end.
But it is OUR choice to make. .....am I wrong?
....if not explain

what??
I'm saying we have free will to become a child of God or .....NOT.
God knows which choice we will make in the end.
But it is OUR choice to make. .....am I wrong?
....if not explainYes, whether or not we become a child of God is our choice.
Yes, God knows what choice we will make.
This has absolutely nothing to do with predestination. Look up the word. Do any of the verses even imply whether or not we will believe? No they do not. They only talk about what we will receive because we believe.


conformed into the image of His Son
to the adoption of sons

The words means 'to determine'. Look at how the word is used elsewhere. God determined before hand that those that believe would receive. That's all predestination is.

Does that help you see it more clearly?

Yes, whether or not we become a child of God is our choice.
Yes, God knows what choice we will make.
This has absolutely nothing to do with predestination. Look up the word. Do any of the verses even imply whether or not we will believe? No they do not. They only talk about what we will receive because we believe.


conformed into the image of His Son
to the adoption of sons

The words means 'to determine'. Look at how the word is used elsewhere. God determined before hand that those that believe would receive. That's all predestination is.

Does that help you see it more clearly?

OK. I adhere to the right docrine just have labeled it wrong?

OK. I adhere to the right docrine just have labeled it wrong?Yes, you are talking about election, not predestination. They are two distinct doctrines. The elect are predestined.

We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.

If you've read Bandits posts he covers this issue very well. It is corporate. God has predestined that those who believe will be conformed to the image of His Son. He has "Not" predestined who will believe.

Predestination is always based on foreknowledge.

Predestination is always based on foreknowledge.

But events foreknown are not always predestined.

But events foreknown are not always predestined.

And predestination is never based on arbitrary choice.

And predestination is never based on arbitrary choice.

Agreed. Dead men cant make choices.

Could "whom he did foreknow" not also mean people he had once had a knowing relationship with? Lets say you were married to a woman when you were sixteen years old and after ten years you divorced her. At age fifty your paths cross again in another country. Could you say that you did foreknow her? Who knows maybe she will return to her first husband. I love happy endings.

Could "whom he did foreknow" not also mean people he had once had a knowing relationship with? Lets say you were married to a woman when you were sixteen years old and after ten years you divorced her. At age fifty your paths cross again in another country. Could you say that you did foreknow her? Who knows maybe she will return to her first husband. I love happy endings.

You've hit the nail on the head my friend. That is how Paul is using the term. He isn't speaking of God knowing people before they are born. In context he is speaking of the Jewish people. Paul begins to address the Jewish believers a t Rome in chapter 2

Romans 2:17 ( KJV )
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

he continues until he reaches chapter 11

Romans 11:13 ( KJV )
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

This entire section is speaking about the Jews. In chapter 8 Paul says those who God foreknew He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. Then in chapter 11 He tells exactly who they are that God foreknew.

Romans 11:1-2 ( KJV )
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

That's why it's important to keep everything in context.

You've hit the nail on the head my friend. That is how Paul is using the term. He isn't speaking of God knowing people before they are born. In context he is speaking of the Jewish people. Paul begins to address the Jewish believers a t Rome in chapter 2

Romans 2:17 ( KJV )
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

he continues until he reaches chapter 11

Romans 11:13 ( KJV )
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

This entire section is speaking about the Jews. In chapter 8 Paul says those who God foreknew He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. Then in chapter 11 He tells exactly who they are that God foreknew.

Romans 11:1-2 ( KJV )
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

That's why it's important to keep everything in context.

I think the best is Romans 9:24-26 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Which needs to be read with Jeremiah 3:6-8 Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Here there is a contrast drawn between Israel and her sister Judah and God gave a bill of divorce to Israel yet Judah remained in the fold so there would be a fold for Christ to come to. Also in Hosea 1:4,6,7 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little [while], and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And [God] said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Here you see the same contrast. The house of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles and became known as Gentiles. The house of Judah were in the land when the Christ was born of Mary. He came unto his own the Jews, the house of Judah. The lion of the tribe of Judah.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, [and] one shepherd. Jesus did foreknow who he was speaking of here. By the way this is the short version of Ezekiel 37 and the two sticks.

Sorry for resurrecting a half a year thread, but I got excited because I found a bunch of predestination verses. Feast on these!

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Psalm 139:16
No one has power over the spirit to retain the spirit, And no one has power in the day of death. There is no release from that war, And wickedness will not deliver those who are given to it. Ecclesiastes 8:8
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:22-23
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. Romans 9:15-18
“Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble...Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass, Job 14:1,5
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; Acts 17:26-27
When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. Deuteronomy 32:8
it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.

If God Knows which you will choose, there is no choice. You cannot withstand the will of God.

This is not the only day of salvation...

Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Looking at 1Cor 15, Rev 20 and Ezek 37 the scripture clearly shows that there are different days of salvation.

God calls whom He will when He will...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Everyone cannot understand the Truth of God at this time, there is a miracle that has to take place when one is called...

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Even Christ's disciples could not understand without this miracle taking place...

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

There is a large portion of the people who have lived and died and will come up in the White Throne Judgment who have never had this take place yet...

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Tie in Mat 13:11 and Luke 24:45 with the books being opened.

OK so what does predestined mean?

God predestinated certain people to be called at certain times. How they respond is completely up to them. Does God know everything about us ahead of time? Nope! Here is one good example, the father of the faithful...

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God is omniscient, but that does not mean He chooses to know everything. If He chooses to know your future, it is cast in something far more unchangeable than concrete. He simply chooses not to know. He can do that. He can also choose to forget. If some time you get to feeling pretty good about yourself in a vain way, just try to forget something on purpose. It will humble you.

Anyhoo, scripture shows that our outcome is not determined, we make choices. But God chooses who and when to call according to His purpose.

The Lord knows the end from the begining... many are called but few are chosen. It is those who answer that call who are chosen by the Lord. The Lord for an example, has made a tapestry of human history according to his plan of the ages, but each of our lives based upon our own choises are like the individual threads of this tapestry and are woven into the whole so that each of us make our choise and yet in the end the Lord's plan will unfold in his timming. The Lord has said, " I have set before you blessing and cursing. life and death, choose life that it may go well with you and your seed." As far as predestination. "those whom he foreknew he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son." Those who are members of the body of Christ are predestinated to be transformed into the moral image of Jesus Christ... The Lord wants us to want to, thats why the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Even in New Jerusalem there will be a forbidden fruit that as long as we abstain from it, we will be choosing the Lord otherwise we will be there by compulsion and again the Lord wants us to want him. The forbiden fruit I speak of is the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Another example; "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of the Lord for God cannot be tempted with evil and neither does he tempt any man, but we each are tempted when we are drawn away and of our own lusts enticed..." Or again in Mt 10 "there has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able, but will with the temptation make a way to excape that you may be able to bear it. "We are told that now is the day of salvation. Now is the acceptable time. the word of faith is nigh you, even in your mouth." and again in anothr place, "call on the Lord while he is near..." Praise the Lord in Jesus' name, our God and King! Jesus come quickly!

We have free will. God just knew which way you would choose, but the choice is yours.

Nicely put. Yep God already knows what your decision shall be and He has known since the dawn of creation. But you are the one who makes the choice.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Nicely put. Yep God already knows what your decision shall be and He has known since the dawn of creation. But you are the one who makes the choice.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Would you like to rethink that statement?...

Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

I would suggest that you all listen to this sermon. It will clear up a lot of confusion on the issue. It is by far the best presented and clear understanding of this subject

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=33104151314
Election and Holiness by C.H. Spurgeon