I find Fenris' input on this forum very valuable , and I feel privileged to have his association here. Thank you Fenris. Christians need more good Jews like you to keep us on our toes. Your insight is valuable and appreciated.

I consider him a friend on this forum , yet I may be testing the friendship by using his name here , I did not get his permission , and he has no knowledge that I would be posting any of this. I hope I do not mis-represent him in any way. Thanks.

I take the position that All Israel will be saved as per Romans 9 (Israel past) , Romans 10 (Israel present) and Romans 11 (Israel future).

There is also a rather unnoticed verse in the bible that says one day in the future , 10 gentiles will grab the hem of the robe of one Jew and he will lead them to Jerusalem. I would like to reserve one of those spots on your hem Fenris. (smile)

From Zechariah 8
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

As time goes by , I hope we all can point out the positive scriptures that assure eventual salvation for all Israel.

Much of The Christian Church have done a shameful job of bashing the Jew for 2000 years , it is about time we read the rest of the story and corrected our ways. Many Christians have done so already. Israel is still central in God's plans.

We Christian cowboys in Montana , and we Christian cowboys in Alberta sometimes think the sun shines exclusively on us alone. It is an error we make. Shame on us. We hang on the branch grafted into the Olive tree. Israel is the Olive Tree.

Has Israel made mistakes ? Yes , certainly.
Has the Christian church made mistakes ? Yes , certainly.
Has God made a covenant with the Christian ? Yes He has.
Has God made a covenant with Israel ? Yes He has.
Will he break either of those covenants ? No He will not.

We Gentile Christians should be thankful for the Olive Tree and we should never bash it.

With a focus on "the bright side" for future Israel here is a bit more. Thanks.

From Isaiah 45

17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.

25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the LORD
and will make their boast in him.

.
.
.
Here is why ... God will bring salvation to Israel ..... it is for the sake of his Holy name , not because of the right or wrong conduct of Israel.

(From Ezekiel 36)

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.


It is fair to say that Israel does not deserve God's mercy and salvation. Yet she will receive it.

It is fair to say the Christian Church does not deserve God's mercy and salvation . Yet she will receive it.

Thank you everybody. Like I said , my intention is to have this thread dedicated to the positive role of Israel in God's plans.

In the hours , days , and months , I hope we can all contribute more of these wonderful nuggets of good news for Israel as we encounter them in our reading.

(If someone wants to bash Israel , I would kindly ask them to take it to another thread or better yet read Romans 11 again. thanks.)

May you all have a kind and wonderful day.
Looking forward to hearing from everyone who loves Israel.
You too Fenris :)

I find Fenris' input on this forum very valuable , and I feel privileged to have his association here. Thank you Fenris. Christians need more good Jews like you to keep us on our toes. Your insight is valuable and appreciated.


Ah. well thank you Arnie, how very kind of you to say.

I suspect people who read the bible differently and feel otherwise (about Jews; not about me personally) will be weighing in soon enough... :lol:

Ah. well thank you Arnie, how very kind of you to say.

I suspect people who read the bible differently and feel otherwise (about Jews; not about me personally) will be weighing in soon enough... :lol:

I'm with Fenris on this.... all Israel shall be saved... because it is not about us, it is all about God's grace and faithfulness to this word. Fenris is my buddy.

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Shalom

Arnie, I think you're presently experiencing a puppy love for Israel. It's not the worst place to be, but it's not the best or right place to be either. None of the prophets or apostles in their maturity spoke like you have in these posts. Their love for Israel was free from romanticism, but was sober and often sad, though not without hope, and it was because of their seasoned preaching to and numerous beatings from the very ones they were sent to. You speak as from a young and sheltered heart that is without experience. Bless you on your journey onward, and may God give you His heart for lost Israel.

The last 26 chapters of Isaiah aren't sober or sad. When the final redemption comes, it will be glorious.

I take the position that All Israel will be saved

A couple of questions that this statement always brings to mind for me.

1) is about the completeness of 'all Israel' and what does that mean.

Does this include OT Israelites like the wicked Ahab, Jezebel, Jeroboam, Ahaz, King Manasseh, etc...will they be saved after-death, to be included in 'all Israel' even though they rejected God during their lives, worshipped idols, sacrificed children to Baal, etc?

Similarly does this include NT Israelites like Herod, Caiaphas, Judas Iscariot, Ananias and Sapphira, Barabbas, the mocking thief on the cross, etc...

Because if these and other wicked Israelites are not included; then can we really say 'all Israel' is truly all, or just a subset of 'some of Israel'?


2) is about the inclusion that determines what an 'Israelite' member of 'all Israel' fundamentally is.

Is an Israelite a) one by birth or b) by religious affiliation or c) by governmental citizenship?

If a), then how much percentage of birth classifies one...both parents, one parent, one grandparent, etc?
if b), then how can Israelites who rejected Christianity and have all died by the millions years ago be included in 'all Israel shall be saved'?
if c), then do we say that the millions of Israelites who lived and died over thousands of years when there was no governmental political Israel or Judah, weren't really Jews...how are they accounted for?


Fundamentally, is 'all Israel' a grouping based race, or a grouping based on belief, or a grouping based on political citizenship?

A couple of questions that this statement always brings to mind for me.


I'm a prophet!

What did I say, above?


I suspect people who read the bible differently and feel otherwise (about Jews; not about me personally) will be weighing in soon enough...

I find Fenris' input on this forum very valuable , and I feel privileged to have his association here. Thank you Fenris. Christians need more good Jews like you to keep us on our toes. Your insight is valuable and appreciated.

I consider him a friend on this forum , yet I may be testing the friendship by using his name here , I did not get his permission , and he has no knowledge that I would be posting any of this. I hope I do not mis-represent him in any way. Thanks.

I take the position that All Israel will be saved as per Romans 9 (Israel past) , Romans 10 (Israel present) and Romans 11 (Israel future).

There is also a rather unnoticed verse in the bible that says one day in the future , 10 gentiles will grab the hem of the robe of one Jew and he will lead them to Jerusalem. I would like to reserve one of those spots on your hem Fenris. (smile)

From Zechariah 8
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

The 10 Gentiles represent the 10 lost tribes of Israel whom God is calling forth through the testimony of the Jews (apostles). Together these make up the church of God.

Salvation is of the Jews. The New Testament is a testimony of God working through the Jews, and most of the writings are by Jews. We are hooked into God's plan through their testimony. Faith comes by hearing and this by the word of God.

A couple of questions that this statement always brings to mind for me.

1) is about the completeness of 'all Israel' and what does that mean.

Does this include OT Israelites like the wicked Ahab, Jezebel, Jeroboam, Ahaz, King Manasseh, etc...will they be saved after-death, to be included in 'all Israel' even though they rejected God during their lives, worshipped idols, sacrificed children to Baal, etc?

Similarly does this include NT Israelites like Herod, Caiaphas, Judas Iscariot, Ananias and Sapphira, Barabbas, the mocking thief on the cross, etc...

Because if these and other wicked Israelites are not included; then can we really say 'all Israel' is truly all, or just a subset of 'some of Israel'?


2) is about the inclusion that determines what an 'Israelite' member of 'all Israel' fundamentally is.

Is an Israelite a) one by birth or b) by religious affiliation or c) by governmental citizenship?

If a), then how much percentage of birth classifies one...both parents, one parent, one grandparent, etc?
if b), then how can Israelites who rejected Christianity and have all died by the millions years ago be included in 'all Israel shall be saved'?
if c), then do we say that the millions of Israelites who lived and died over thousands of years when there was no governmental political Israel or Judah, weren't really Jews...how are they accounted for?


Fundamentally, is 'all Israel' a grouping based race, or a grouping based on belief, or a grouping based on political citizenship?

Great Post!

Personally, I think it's talking about spiritual Israel.

John 14:6 says that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Hebrews 9:27 says we die once and then face judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:10 says that we will be judged according to things done in the body.

To me, it's completely clear. Your physical nationality doesn't matter any longer. It's all about your relationship with the Son of God. If you are a believer, you will be saved. If you're not, then you won't be saved. That is what God has said through his word.

Jesus told His Jewish followers to go to the highways and byways and bid them come to the supper. Their Jewish countrymen had refused the invitation, thus opening up the call to all nations.

All Israel is the complete number of those who God foreknew would come to Him. That includes people of every nation and language, When the seating is full, then will His salvation come to men. All who are Israel in the Spirit will be saved.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

A couple of questions that this statement always brings to mind for me.

1) is about the completeness of 'all Israel' and what does that mean.If I read my prophecy right, the "all Israel" refers to the Jews living in Palestine whom God has place his law on their hearts etc. and are alive on "The day of the Lord", which was mentioned by Joel as a time of Israel's testing in which she will be required to fish or cut bait so to speak.


2) is about the inclusion that determines what an 'Israelite' member of 'all Israel' fundamentally is.

Is an Israelite a) one by birth or b) by religious affiliation or c) by governmental citizenship?
All three at the same time.


Fundamentally, is 'all Israel' a grouping based race, or a grouping based on belief, or a grouping based on political citizenship?All three at the same time.

In context, per Romans 11, how should branches be understood? In the corporate sense? Or in an individualistic sense? And would it be the same in all cases? We know that the branches broken off represent unbelieving Jews. We also know that wild branches grafted in represent believing Gentiles who enter in by faith. Let's focus on the latter. We're told that if we(meaning believing Gentiles) boast, etc, we could get cut off. So then, if branches is to be understood on a corporate level, this would imply. at some point all believing Gentiles could get cut off. This hardly seems like a reasonable conclusion. With this in mind, it would be safe to say that the believing Gentiles that are grafted in, this is based on an individual level. If this is so, then why would it then be speaking on a corporate level when it comes to the branches that were cut off? Why wouldn't that be an an individual level as well?

In context, per Romans 11, how should branches be understood? In the corporate sense? Or in an individualistic sense? And would it be the same in all cases? We know that the branches broken off represent unbelieving Jews. We also know that wild branches grafted in represent believing Gentiles who enter in by faith. Let's focus on the latter. We're told that if we(meaning believing Gentiles) boast, etc, we could get cut off. So then, if branches is to be understood on a corporate level, this would imply. at some point all believing Gentiles could get cut off. This hardly seems like a reasonable conclusion. With this in mind, it would be safe to say that the believing Gentiles that are grafted in, this is based on an individual level. If this is so, then why would it then be speaking on a corporate level when it comes to the branches that were cut off? Why wouldn't that be an an individual level as well?I think the branches should be seen in the corporate sense.

If I understand Paul's analogy,

1. The branches are generations of Jews to whom the prediction of Deut 32:21 is true.

2. The analogy hints at Deut 29:14 The Covenant he makes is with a transgenerational people group -- a people group that transcends generations.

3. Paul would never consider an individual, unbelieving Jew holy simply because they were a Jew.

4. Paul would never suggest that God broke a branch off the tree in order to make room for a Gentile.

5. The "secret" in verse 25 is a secret precisely because it was not predictable. We couldn't have guessed or deduced that God would make a promise to a people and then keep it on the shelf for generations, while he saved a bunch of people that were not his people, in order to make his people jealous as revealed in Deut 32:21

6. Note also the wonderment in verse 33. God is finally fulfilling the prediction that Moses made thousands of years earlier. The idea that Paul would be amazed that God is saving individual Jews isn't that amazing. But the idea that Moses prediction in Deut 29:14 - 30:10 will come true is amazing.

Let's focus on the latter. We're told that if we(meaning believing Gentiles) boast, etc, we could get cut off. So then, if branches is to be understood on a corporate level, this would imply. at some point all believing Gentiles could get cut off.If am right about the wild branches being representative of the Gentiles taken as a whole, then the analogy seeks to paint the picture of events contemporary to Paul in which God had offered salvation to the Gentiles. Paul is warning the Gentiles that God will continue to offer salvation to the Gentiles as long as they continue to respond in faith. We know from 2Thes. 2 that before the Day of the Lord, an apostacy will take place and at that time God will remove the Gentiles from the Tree.

(Note: if we think in terms of individuals we will get hopelessly confused. Paul is talking in general categories and painting the picture with broad brush strokes.)

Great Post!

Personally, I think it's talking about spiritual Israel.

John 14:6 says that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Hebrews 9:27 says we die once and then face judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:10 says that we will be judged according to things done in the body.

To me, it's completely clear. Your physical nationality doesn't matter any longer. It's all about your relationship with the Son of God. If you are a believer, you will be saved. If you're not, then you won't be saved. That is what God has said through his word.The Gospel is clear. Paul, however, clearly makes a distinction between Gentiles and Jews in Romans. What is the answer to this supposed contradiction?

I personally think that there are Jews who recognize the innate knowledge of God and worship Him through the Old Covenant with a true heart. These have simply been blinded to the truth of Christ. There will come a time, however, when the Truth will be revealed into the hearts of these Jews..

The Gospel is clear. Paul, however, clearly makes a distinction between Gentiles and Jews in Romans. What is the answer to this supposed contradiction?

I personally think that there are Jews who recognize the innate knowledge of God and worship Him through the Old Covenant with a true heart. These have simply been blinded to the truth of Christ. There will come a time, however, when the Truth will be revealed into the hearts of these Jews..

Salvation only comes when Jew or Gentile gets born again through faith in Christ. knowledge doesn't save.

Salvation only comes when Jew or Gentile gets born again through faith in Christ. knowledge doesn't save.That's why I said that there will come a time when the Truth will be revealed into the hearts of the Jews. "The Truth will be revealed" = Jews becoming enlightened by God to the Truth of Christ. Those Jews who truly seek God will find him here...in Christ.

The Gospel is clear. Paul, however, clearly makes a distinction between Gentiles and Jews in Romans. What is the answer to this supposed contradiction?

I personally think that there are Jews who recognize the innate knowledge of God and worship Him through the Old Covenant with a true heart. These have simply been blinded to the truth of Christ. There will come a time, however, when the Truth will be revealed into the hearts of these Jews..

But don't you agree that a Jew can be sincere and still be lost if they do not come to a saving relationship with Jesus? There will no doubt be sincere Jews that will die without Jesus. According to Jesus, in John 8:24, they will die in their sins.

If am right about the wild branches being representative of the Gentiles taken as a whole, then the analogy seeks to paint the picture of events contemporary to Paul in which God had offered salvation to the Gentiles. Paul is warning the Gentiles that God will continue to offer salvation to the Gentiles as long as they continue to respond in faith. We know from 2Thes. 2 that before the Day of the Lord, an apostacy will take place and at that time God will remove the Gentiles from the Tree.

(Note: if we think in terms of individuals we will get hopelessly confused. Paul is talking in general categories and painting the picture with broad brush strokes.)




BroRog, I read both of your posts to me. As per usual, you never fail to make good points. What got me to thinking along these lines is the fact that we, the grafted in branches, could get cut off as well. The only way that makes sense to me is in an individual level. So then I'm thinking, if we can get cut off on an individual level, then what does this say about the unbelieving Jews that were cut off? weren't they cut off on an individual level, depending on whether they chose to believe or not? Even if it were a million different Jews, it would still have to be on an individual level, since, who knows, maybe there's some believers in that million.

I'm with Fenris on this.... all Israel shall be saved... because it is not about us, it is all about God's grace and faithfulness to this word. Fenris is my buddy.

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Shalom

Is it all or just a remnant?

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Is 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Is 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Is 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Firstfruits

But don't you agree that a Jew can be sincere and still be lost if they do not come to a saving relationship with Jesus? There will no doubt be sincere Jews that will die without Jesus. According to Jesus, in John 8:24, they will die in their sins.Maybe. I don't know. I know that Peter tells his fellow Jews in Acts to repent and accept Christ for salvation, yet Paul makes a specific point to distinguish the Nation of Israel from Gentiles. He also says "all Israel will be saved".

I know that Christ is necessary for salvation. Based on Paul's letter to the Romans, it is my rather amateur opinion that God ultimately has mercy on those Jews who seek Him but whose "hardening" had, up to that point, caused them to be blind to the Truth of Christ. Once this veil is lifted, these Jews will accept Christ.

Maybe. I don't know. I know that Peter tells his fellow Jews in Acts to repent and accept Christ for salvation, yet Paul makes a specific point to distinguish the Nation of Israel from Gentiles. He also says "all Israel will be saved".

I know that Christ is necessary for salvation. Based on Paul's letter to the Romans, it is my rather amateur opinion that God ultimately has mercy on those Jews who seek Him but whose "hardening" had, up to that point, caused them to be blind to the Truth of Christ. Once this veil is lifted, these Jews will accept Christ.

I don't think you can base anyone's eternal destiny on sincerity alone though if they are without Christ, no matter what their nationality is. If that is the case, then any religion or belief system where people are sincere would be included. That is why I come to the conclusion that the NT writers writing about all Israel being saved is talking about spiritual Israel whose faith is in Jesus. Satan is the one that deceives and blinds unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:4), but that doesn't mean that Jews can't repent and see. Paul spoke of his ministry to the Gentiles as a way to bring the Jews to salvation (Romans 11:14), but that necessitates a repentance and belief on their behalf.

I don't think you can base anyone's eternal destiny on sincerity alone though if they are without Christ, no matter what their nationality is.Again...I do not contradict this. I believe it is clear that no man may be declared righteous before God but through Christ.
If that is the case, then any religion or belief system where people are sincere would be included.Sincerity and a contrite heart are more important than you think, IMO. No...a person will not see eternal life through Mohammed...or Buddha. However, I believe that God will reveal the Truth of Christ to those who truly wish to find Him. On a side note, I think it's misleading to categorize Judaism with religions who do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are a people with whom God made a covenant and a people whom Paul explicitly refers to in his letter to the Romans.
That is why I come to the conclusion that the NT writers writing about all Israel being saved is talking about spiritual Israel whose faith is in Jesus. Satan is the one that deceives and blinds unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:4), but that doesn't mean that Jews can't repent and see. Paul spoke of his ministry to the Gentiles as a way to bring the Jews to salvation (Romans 11:14), but that necessitates a repentance and belief on their behalf.What do you make of Romans 11:25?

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Who is Israel in this case? Clearly it is not the "Spiritual Israel" as it is categorized separately from believing Gentiles.

BroRog, I read both of your posts to me. As per usual, you never fail to make good points. What got me to thinking along these lines is the fact that we, the grafted in branches, could get cut off as well. The only way that makes sense to me is in an individual level. So then I'm thinking, if we can get cut off on an individual level, then what does this say about the unbelieving Jews that were cut off? weren't they cut off on an individual level, depending on whether they chose to believe or not? Even if it were a million different Jews, it would still have to be on an individual level, since, who knows, maybe there's some believers in that million.Okay, I understand your point. But just so I'm sure I actually do understand, let me quote the passage and add comments that I think expresses your view and you tell me if I made a mistake or didn't get your view right.

Paul prefaces his analogy of the root/branches with a metaphor in verse 16, which we will ignore for the moment. He begins the analogy first with a stipulation and then he follows it with an imaginary conversation between himself and a [Gentile believer]. The wording in brackets represents an amplified version based on what the text would look like had Paul been explicit according to how I understand you view.



But if some of the branches [individual Jews] were broken off, and you [an individual Gentile], being a wild olive, were grafted in among them [the remaining believing Jews] and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you [the individual Gentile] are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches [individual Jews] were broken off so that I [an individual Gentile] might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches [individuals who belong to the tree by virtue of being a Jew], He will not spare you [an individual Gentile believer] either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell [?], severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness [?]; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they [presumably living repentant Jews?] also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

This raises some questions, but I want to lay down your perspective first and ask you if I got it right.

Okay, I understand your point. But just so I'm sure I actually do understand, let me quote the passage and add comments that I think expresses your view and you tell me if I made a mistake or didn't get your view right.

Paul prefaces his analogy of the root/branches with a metaphor in verse 16, which we will ignore for the moment. He begins the analogy first with a stipulation and then he follows it with an imaginary conversation between himself and a [Gentile believer]. The wording in brackets represents an amplified version based on what the text would look like had Paul been explicit according to how I understand you view.



But if some of the branches [individual Jews] were broken off, and you [an individual Gentile], being a wild olive, were grafted in among them [the remaining believing Jews] and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you [the individual Gentile] are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches [individual Jews] were broken off so that I [an individual Gentile] might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches [individuals who belong to the tree by virtue of being a Jew], He will not spare you [an individual Gentile believer] either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell [?], severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness [?]; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they [presumably living repentant Jews?] also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

This raises some questions, but I want to lay down your perspective first and ask you if I got it right.



BroRog, you must be a mind reader or something. What you just did here with the brackets, this was exactly what I already did before I made my first post into this thread. I was going to post it but felt there were still some problems to iron out, thus the reason I asked if the branches could be understood in more than one sense, depending on context.
First we have the natural branches. So whom would this include as a whole, since some were severed, and some weren't. Then we have the wild branches that were grafted in, which makes sense on a corporate level, but doesn't make sense on a corporate level when one can still be cut off.

I tend to think the natural branches represent ethnic Israel. But even tho some of the branches were cut off, God still left a remnant that wasn't cut off. Since we also learn that an unbelieving Jew can be grafted back in, with the stipulation that they no longer stay in unbelief, then how can that not be on an individual level? But there is another perspective to consider. Jesus returns when the ethnic Jews are being destroyed by their enemies. Jesus steps in..fights the battle for them..thus, they then as a nation believe and repent. Speaking for myself, I can definetely see the latter as a strong possibilty.
That's the picture the OT seems to paint. If you haven't figured it out yet...I'm more confused than anything, since I can see both ways as being valid.

I'm a prophet!

I suspect people who read the bible differently and feel otherwise (about Jews; not about me personally) will be weighing in soon enough...
What did I say, above?

Not sure about your point Fenris. I want you and every Israelite this is living today to eventually find a nice cozy place at the Master's table in Heaven for all eternity.

If some people have a lesser hope and feel otherwise about Israelites, it certainly isn't me.

A tree stands, on the tree are fruits brought forth by the tree, the fruits appear in thier seasons, one fruit falls from the tree and the seed of that tree brings forth another tree through and by the first tree, the fruit of this tree that fell springs forth a tree of the same first tree and fruits of the same are brought forth, more fruits of a different kind also spring forth on this tree and both the original fruit and the new fruits are brought forth and this continues, the different fruits produce at large and seem to overtake the tree however they do not as the original fruit still continues to be brought forth, less the different fruit overtake the tree completely the original fruits spring forth also with them, near the harvest time of the fruit of the tree many of the original fruits spring forth from the tree and when the harvest comes both fruits are taken with the tree.

To first the Jew and then the Gentile and that the Jew may be cast down from its high place the Gentile brings glory, that the Jew who is up high may be broken and in it's envy be brought forth to the Lord.
When the time of the Gentile be fullfilled, whos does the Lord call upon?
Paul was infact letting us know that God has seen it well that first His glory be brought to the Jew and then the Gentile and that in including us, the Gentiles, we humble ourselves before Him knowing that in fact we were brought forth so that they may be brought forth to Him out of thier concious of seeing us given to Him.
Paul is letting us know God in fact has not given up on the Jew but is using His glory through us to infact bring the Jew to Himself and when that is finished in complete form the time of the Gentiles will finish and to the Jew shall He call back to Him.
He is telling us it is no secret, He is God of the Jews and the Gentiles and is using the time of the Gentiles while bringing glory to Himself through the Gentiles is to get to the Jews and when it all comes to an end He will claim the Jews as He has said and will do as He claims us, the Gentiles.
There is no remnant of Gentiles, we are in the time of the Gentiles, there is a remnant of Jews, which He has claimed, when He claims them.

Ah. well thank you Arnie, how very kind of you to say.

I suspect people who read the bible differently and feel otherwise (about Jews; not about me personally) will be weighing in soon enough... :lol:

I have always had a love for the Jewish people. It was taught to me as a child. The stories of the Old Testament, and the fact that the early Christians were Jewish causes a true Christian to love Isreal and the Jewish people. It is in our heart.

If I were going on a trip and needed someone to watch my children for several months, and knew the family watching them were very, very religious and of another faith; it would go down like this.

Mormon----NO
Jehovah Witness-----NO
Muslim-------NO
Buddhist-----NO
Wiccan-----NO
Hindu-------NO
Jewish-------YES. and would not worry a bit while I was gone :)

A man has a son, and he loves him very much. That son has many children, and the man loves all his grandchildren very much. But there is one grandson he loves especially - not more than his other grandchildren - but especially, the apple of his eye.

That grandchild doesn't believe in his grandfather's ways and does astray, walking in his own way, and he becomes estranged from the family.

But the grandfather loves him still and yearns for the day when he knows his prodigal grandson will return and there will be a reconciliation and a most joyous celebration. Maybe the other children of Abraham will become a little jealous and indignant about it when the time comes, who knows?

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. " (Rom 11:28)

"The apple of His eye". Specially loved, although He loves all the children of Abraham.

He always means what He says.

Is it all or just a remnant?

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Is 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Is 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Is 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Is 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Firstfruits

The last 26 chapters of Isaiah aren't sober or sad. When the final redemption comes, it will be glorious.

Isaiah 42:18-23 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will mangnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Since this thread seems to be a commentary on Romans 11, I would like to make an observation about that passage. Chapter 11 begins with a question, which seems to follow Paul's pattern throughout Romans. He sets up rhetorical questions that would be the kinds of questions raised by an objector to the gospel as he formulates it. It's as if the objector is saying, "If such-and-such is true, Paul, then your formulation of the gospel must be wrong." And the "such-and-such" is found in the question he asks. The first question in Romans 11 is,



11:1-2 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Paul is preaching the gospel to everyone, but for the most part, the majority of people who come to belief are Gentile. Someone objecting to Paul's version of the gospel would argue that the absence of Jewish believers, or the minimal number of Jewish believers is an indication that Paul's gospel must be wrong. After all, God's promise of salvation was made first and primarily to the Jews. Why would God promise something to the Jewish people and end up giving it to the Gentiles instead?

So the question in 11:1 raises the issue of God's rejection of the Jewish people as a race. It's theoretically possible that God has finally had enough of the Jewish race has decided to abandon them altogether such that not even God's prevenient grace will not apply to them anymore. Has God abandoned the Jew altogether? Is that what you are saying Paul?

Paul says, NO WAY! That is not what Paul teaches and it is NOT his position that God has abandoned the Jewish race. After all, he says, he is a Jew and he is a believer. And besides, God has always reserved for himself a remnant just as he did in Elijah's day. God is still saving individual Jews and he intends to keep on saving them.

Paul then asks another rhetorical question.



11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?

This sounds like the same question but it's a different question even if the difference is subtle. For one thing, the question in verse one asks about what God has done. Has God rejected his people? NO. But the question in verse 11 is asking what Israel has done. Has Israel tripped up so as to fall to her destruction? The answer is again, no.

This is where Paul shifts his emphasis onto the nation again, as opposed to the individual Jewish people. In verse one, Paul asks whether God was done dealing with the Jewish race altogether. Speaking of the Jews as individuals, the question was whether God had rejected them as a people. But in verse 11, the question is whether God had abandoned his plan to do something with Israel in the final days.

The prophets reveal that God planned from the very beginning to bring Israel back to the land and to cause them to be his people once again, and to reestablish them as a nation in the land of promise and to cause them to, once again, keep the law of Moses according to the covenant God made with Israel at Mt. Sinai. And so, Paul is rhetorically asking, Did God decide to forget all that? Are we done with that phase of his plan after the cross? Did the blood of the New Covenant institute an entirely different dispensation of grace such that God has decided to forget all those promises? Has God decided to deal with "Spiritual Israel" now, which includes both Jew and Gentile now?

The answer is no. Israel did not fall such that God decided to abandon his previous plan to restore Israel to the land of promise and institute the law of Moses again in a national state of Israel located in Palestine. The way to look at Gentile participation in the covenant with Abraham is NOT as a united "Spiritual Israel", but as a people (not Israel) God would raise up to bring Israel to jealousy. That is what he told Moses, and that is what Moses told the people. Since Israel made God jealous with an idol that was "not a god." God decided to make Israel jealous with a people that was "not a people."

Even though the nation of Israel had been defeated and dissolved by the Romans, it had not fallen to its destruction such that it would cease to be a nation before God. Eventually (and as history has proven) Israel would become a nation again and God would keep his promises to them as a nation. He is in the process of doing this right now.

The way to look at Gentile participation in the covenant with Abraham is NOT as a united "Spiritual Israel", but as a people (not Israel) God would raise up to bring Israel to jealousy. That is what he told Moses, and that is what Moses told the people. Since Israel made God jealous with an idol that was "not a god." God decided to make Israel jealous with a people that was "not a people."


I've considered this perspective before. But after pondering it, I then began to wonder, in what way have we provoked Israel to jealousy? Take Fenris for instance, I don't see where he seems to be jealous of anything. As a matter of fact he doesn't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah. This provoking of jealousy, is this supposed to be an ongoing thing, or is this something still to be fulfilled?

I've considered this perspective before. But after pondering it, I then began to wonder, in what way have we provoked Israel to jealousy? Take Fenris for instance, I don't see where he seems to be jealous of anything. As a matter of fact he doesn't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah. This provoking of jealousy, is this supposed to be an ongoing thing, or is this something still to be fulfilled?

In many ways, read Act's, Romans the whole time speaking it is to the jew first then the gentile in that if it is possible when the jew turns and the gentile doesnt the jew may see it and be broken down with a jealousy.
It's all over the N.T

Might not be in such a way anymore as it was with the apostles and diciples. But i do not see the church the same as i see it in God's word.
Regardless theres a remnant.

Fenris, may not be driven like this from us, but we all have hope in Christ for Fenris, do we not?
Some of us, for the sake of not causeing a stumbling block for our brethren, havent said what we would like to say directly to Fenris, because this is a discussion site, not an evangelical site, if through discussion evangelism produces, all the more glory to God through Christ, Jesus.

I've considered this perspective before. But after pondering it, I then began to wonder, in what way have we provoked Israel to jealousy? Take Fenris for instance, I don't see where he seems to be jealous of anything. As a matter of fact he doesn't even believe Jesus is the promised Messiah. This provoking of jealousy, is this supposed to be an ongoing thing, or is this something still to be fulfilled?That's a good question. I think the passage from Deuteronomy is talking about one nation provoking another nation to jealousy as in say, the United States provoking Israel to jealousy. I don't think God was suggesting, for example, that the individual divaD would provoke the individual Fenris to jealousy.

That's a good question. I think the passage from Deuteronomy is talking about one nation provoking another nation to jealousy as in say, the United States provoking Israel to jealousy. I don't think God was suggesting, for example, that the individual divaD would provoke the individual Fenris to jealousy.

But those situations did actually occur with the Apostles, they preached to the Jews and the Gentiles hearing believed and some of the Jews didnt (not saying all the gentiles did either) and it provoked the Jews.
Some into believing and some to the point they wanted Paul or Peter ext, dead.

That's a good question. I think the passage from Deuteronomy is talking about one nation provoking another nation to jealousy as in say, the United States provoking Israel to jealousy. I don't think God was suggesting, for example, that the individual divaD would provoke the individual Fenris to jealousy.But Paul did say that through this jealousy, he hoped to save some of them (vs. 14). I have wondered about diva's question many times. Is that jealousy really still going on?

But Paul did say that through this jealousy, he hoped to save some of them (vs. 14). I have wondered about diva's question many times. Is that jealousy really still going on?Well, that's a good point. And I don't know the answer. When it comes to one individual's causing another individual's jealousy with regard to a person relationship to the creator, I'm not sure what that would look like exactly. If Paul, the individual, was hoping to move some of his fellow kinsmen to jealousy, I'm guessing that his kinsmen weren't too impressed with Paul's relationship with God.

I mean suppose a couple of guys, Allen and Arte, were sitting around Jerusalem at the time, having a coffee and talking about Paul. What would the conversation sound like? Allen might ask Arte, "What do you think of this guy Paul?" And Arte would say to Allen, "God must not like this guy very much. I mean look at him. He has been maimed and beat up and he walks funny and can't see very well. Everywhere he goes, people try to stone him. He just can't seem to get a break." I just can't see Allen or Arte being jealous of Paul. Maybe. Maybe these guys will see past all of Paul's hardships and see his joy and his spirituality and his love for God and for his own people. And maybe these guys will want to be like Paul or have what Paul has.

For me, this is a tough call to make.

But those situations did actually occur with the Apostles, they preached to the Jews and the Gentiles hearing believed and some of the Jews didnt (not saying all the gentiles did either) and it provoked the Jews.
Some into believing and some to the point they wanted Paul or Peter ext, dead.Yes, I hear what you are saying and you are making some good points.

Yes, I hear what you are saying and you are making some good points.

8)
I'm not saying you gotta drive 400 miles and preach to the Jews or fly across continents and then come preach to the Gentiles lol, but if you did, Glory to God.

Well, that's a good point. And I don't know the answer. When it comes to one individual's causing another individual's jealousy with regard to a person relationship to the creator, I'm not sure what that would look like exactly. If Paul, the individual, was hoping to move some of his fellow kinsmen to jealousy, I'm guessing that his kinsmen weren't too impressed with Paul's relationship with God.

I mean suppose a couple of guys, Allen and Arte, were sitting around Jerusalem at the time, having a coffee and talking about Paul. What would the conversation sound like? Allen might ask Arte, "What do you think of this guy Paul?" And Arte would say to Allen, "God must not like this guy very much. I mean look at him. He has been maimed and beat up and he walks funny and can't see very well. Everywhere he goes, people try to stone him. He just can't seem to get a break." I just can't see Allen or Arte being jealous of Paul. Maybe. Maybe these guys will see past all of Paul's hardships and see his joy and his spirituality and his love for God and for his own people. And maybe these guys will want to be like Paul or have what Paul has.

For me, this is a tough call to make.Thanks for your thoughts. Seems like it could be both going on—nation provoking nation to jealousy and within that, an individual provoking individuals to jealousy. But it still seems it was more specifically related to that day. How do you think the provocation to jealousy might relate to the speaking in tongues found in 1 Corinthians? In 1 Cor. 14 Paul cites Isaiah 28 as the prophetic reason for tongues (vs. 21). Seems that foreign tongues was to be a great sign to unbelieving Israel (vs. 22). For those whose hearts were hardened, this speaking in tongues would only confirm to them the madness of Christians (and harden their hearts further), but for those Jews with open hearts, this speaking in tongues would provoke them to jealousy as they begin to realize how God is working through the Gentiles. But that doesn’t happen today. Speaking in foreign tongues has lost its effectiveness on the nation of Israel, wouldn’t you say?

Thanks for your thoughts. Seems like it could be both going on—nation provoking nation to jealousy and within that, an individual provoking individuals to jealousy. But it still seems it was more specifically related to that day. How do you think the provocation to jealousy might relate to the speaking in tongues found in 1 Corinthians? In 1 Cor. 14 Paul cites Isaiah 28 as the prophetic reason for tongues (vs. 21). Seems that foreign tongues was to be a great sign to unbelieving Israel (vs. 22). For those whose hearts were hardened, this speaking in tongues would only confirm to them the madness of Christians (and harden their hearts further), but for those Jews with open hearts, this speaking in tongues would provoke them to jealousy as they begin to realize how God is working through the Gentiles. But that doesn’t happen today. Speaking in foreign tongues has lost its effectiveness on the nation of Israel, wouldn’t you say?That's my sense of it also.

Thanks for your thoughts. Seems like it could be both going on—nation provoking nation to jealousy and within that, an individual provoking individuals to jealousy. But it still seems it was more specifically related to that day. How do you think the provocation to jealousy might relate to the speaking in tongues found in 1 Corinthians? In 1 Cor. 14 Paul cites Isaiah 28 as the prophetic reason for tongues (vs. 21). Seems that foreign tongues was to be a great sign to unbelieving Israel (vs. 22). For those whose hearts were hardened, this speaking in tongues would only confirm to them the madness of Christians (and harden their hearts further), but for those Jews with open hearts, this speaking in tongues would provoke them to jealousy as they begin to realize how God is working through the Gentiles. But that doesn’t happen today. Speaking in foreign tongues has lost its effectiveness on the nation of Israel, wouldn’t you say?

I know this is off topic but i cant help it in relation to your post, cause it reminds me about Paul's letter reffering to the gifts of the Spirit and how he mentions if someone was to come up to the church and see them all speaking tongues and no interpretation and Pauls says "they would think they are crazy"
So i had a good laugh 8)

I'm a prophet!

What did I say, above?

Whilst many of us love Israel and love the Jews, I have to tell you unless you embrace Jesus Christ and the final sacrifice for sin you will never ever see heaven. He is God's only provision for sin.

Jesus says in John 6:45-48, “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.”

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” He then goes on to explain, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (John 10:9).

We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven.

Jesus said, in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Jesus said in John 14:21-24, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”

The same is applicable today. If someone loves the Father they will equally love the love the Son. If someone accepts Christ as Saviour and Lord, God accepts them – and the blessing of God abides upon them. If someone rejects Christ, they reject God – and the wrath of God abides upon them. If someone is for Christ, they are for God, if someone is against Christ they are against God. Nothing could be simpler.

Peter declared onto the unbelieving Jews in Acts 4:10-12, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Romans 8:9 says, “Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Whilst many of us love Israel and love the Jews, I have to tell you unless you embrace Jesus Christ and the final sacrifice for sin you will never ever see heaven. He is God's only provision for sin.

Jesus says in John 6:45-48, “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.”

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” He then goes on to explain, “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture” (John 10:9).

We therefore see that Christ alone is our only way of access to heaven.

Jesus said, in John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

Jesus said in John 14:21-24, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”

The same is applicable today. If someone loves the Father they will equally love the love the Son. If someone accepts Christ as Saviour and Lord, God accepts them – and the blessing of God abides upon them. If someone rejects Christ, they reject God – and the wrath of God abides upon them. If someone is for Christ, they are for God, if someone is against Christ they are against God. Nothing could be simpler.

Peter declared onto the unbelieving Jews in Acts 4:10-12, “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Romans 8:9 says, “Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

1 Corinthians 3:11 states, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

1 Timothy 2:5-6 expressly states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time”

1 John 5:10-12 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

II John 1:9-10 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Great Post. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Great Post. It doesn't get much clearer than that.Actually, not one of those verses address the question at hand. It is understood that when God saves Israel, she will accept Jesus to be the messiah and become part of the body of Christ.

Actually, not one of those verses address the question at hand. It is understood that when God saves Israel, she will accept Jesus to be the messiah and become part of the body of Christ.

I disagree. It does answer the question at hand. Those that accept Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are saved. Those that don't, whether Jew or Gentile, won't be saved. These, and many other verses, address that very thing.

Actually, not one of those verses address the question at hand. It is understood that when God saves Israel, she will accept Jesus to be the messiah and become part of the body of Christ.

Isn't it a corporate acceptance that you are talking about, and not an individual one. Many Jews have accepted Christ, but when they do they are cast out by their brethren. Israel's leadership has never accepted Christ as the Messiah in the two thousand years since he came.

I believe what God means by all Israel really needs to be clarified, if that is possible.

Isn't it a corporate acceptance that you are talking about, and not an individual one. Many Jews have accepted Christ, but when they do they are cast out by their brethren. Israel's leadership has never accepted Christ as the Messiah in the two thousand years since he came.

I believe what God means by all Israel really needs to be clarified, if that is possible.We are getting our phrase "all Israel" from Paul's argument in Romans 9-11 that God's plan to form an entire country populated by believers has not been twarted even though it would appear to be the case, given that only a fraction of the Jews living at the time have come to belief. His concluding remark that "all Israel will be saved" comes at the end of his argument in which he proposes, based on passages from Deuteronomy that God has not abandoned his plan to bring the Jews back to the land, reconstitute them as a nation, write his law on their hearts, forgive their sins and place Jesus Christ as king over them.

I suppose it pushes even the most faithful among us beyond credulity to think that God will work a miracle in the population of Israel such that they will all accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but if I am reading my prophecy right, this is exactly what will happen.

I disagree. It does answer the question at hand. Those that accept Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are saved. Those that don't, whether Jew or Gentile, won't be saved. These, and many other verses, address that very thing.But that isn't the question at hand. In this thread we are talking about God's plan to bring the Jews back to the land of promise, reconstitute the nation of Israel there, write his laws on their hearts, forgive them of their sins, and place Jesus Christ as king over that nation. It goes without saying that these folks will accept Christ.

I suppose it pushes even the most faithful among us beyond credulity to think that God will work a miracle in the population of Israel such that they will all accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but if I am reading my prophecy right, this is exactly what will happen.

I lean more towards a amill eschatology and see this as a credible view also Brorog, whether it is every single Jewish person in Israel or just a huge number of them...I dunno, but it seems there will be a huge turning at the end. I think your right.

We are getting our phrase "all Israel" from Paul's argument in Romans 9-11 that God's plan to form an entire country populated by believers has not been twarted even though it would appear to be the case, given that only a fraction of the Jews living at the time have come to belief. His concluding remark that "all Israel will be saved" comes at the end of his argument in which he proposes, based on passages from Deuteronomy that God has not abandoned his plan to bring the Jews back to the land, reconstitute them as a nation, write his law on their hearts, forgive their sins and place Jesus Christ as king over them.

I suppose it pushes even the most faithful among us beyond credulity to think that God will work a miracle in the population of Israel such that they will all accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, but if I am reading my prophecy right, this is exactly what will happen.I wonder how God will do that. Have you ever thought that maybe the resurrection/raputre will have something to do with it? (Don't know your view on the timing of the rapture)

But that isn't the question at hand. In this thread we are talking about God's plan to bring the Jews back to the land of promise, reconstitute the nation of Israel there, write his laws on their hearts, forgive them of their sins, and place Jesus Christ as king over that nation. It goes without saying that these folks will accept Christ.

Ok. I apologize. I'm getting my threads mixed up. I have no problem with what you wrote above.

I lean more towards a amill eschatology and see this as a credible view also Brorog, whether it is every single Jewish person in Israel or just a huge number of them...I dunno, but it seems there will be a huge turning at the end. I think your right.

I need to do more research, and frankly, I think I need some divine guidence here. But right now, if I understand certain prophetic passages correctly, your point is well taken. Paul doesn't go into detail, but I think when he says "all Israel" he doesn't mean every single Jew living in the world at that time, and he doesn't necessarily mean every single Jew living in Israel at that time -- strange as that may sound. What I just said seems to contradict what I said before, but it doesn't. When you point out that it might be "just a hugh number", I think you are touching on another aspect of the scenario that seems to get little attention.

I think that God will present Israel with an existential crisis and during that crisis he will send a prophet to tell them what they must do to survive. Those who believe the prophet will live and those who do not believe the prophet will perish. From the survivors of this crisis, God will reconstitute a new Israel entirely populated with believers.

Sounds weird. I know.

I could be wrong.

I wonder how God will do that. Have you ever thought that maybe the resurrection/raputre will have something to do with it? (Don't know your view on the timing of the rapture)When I first became a Christian, I was taught that the rapture would take place before all of this takes place, but the more I think about it, It makes more sense to me right now that the rapture will take place as the final act of this age. For one thing, Paul says that we will meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord. Though some folks have us coming back after this. I don't see much evidence to support this.

When I first became a Christian, I was taught that the rapture would take place before all of this takes place, but the more I think about it, It makes more sense to me right now that the rapture will take place as the final act of this age. For one thing, Paul says that we will meet the Lord in the air and forever be with the Lord. Though some folks have us coming back after this. I don't see much evidence to support this.I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When you say "the final act of this age" do you mean the final act before the Mill. Kingdom?

I need to do more research, and frankly, I think I need some divine guidence here. But right now, if I understand certain prophetic passages correctly, your point is well taken. Paul doesn't go into detail, but I think when he says "all Israel" he doesn't mean every single Jew living in the world at that time, and he doesn't necessarily mean every single Jew living in Israel at that time -- strange as that may sound. What I just said seems to contradict what I said before, but it doesn't. When you point out that it might be "just a hugh number", I think you are touching on another aspect of the scenario that seems to get little attention.

I think that God will present Israel with an existential crisis and during that crisis he will send a prophet to tell them what they must do to survive. Those who believe the prophet will live and those who do not believe the prophet will perish....You mean like the two witnesses from the book of Rev.?

You mean like the two witnesses from the book of Rev.?Yes, something like that. If I knew Revelation better I might be more confident, but I'm still not 100% sure of my interpretation of that letter.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When you say "the final act of this age" do you mean the final act before the Mill. Kingdom?

Hmm, I guess I would have to say after the Mill. Kingdom, though I'm not sure how to answer exactly. My eschatology needs a lot of work. :)

Hmm, I guess I would have to say after the Mill. Kingdom, though I'm not sure how to answer exactly. My eschatology needs a lot of work. :)So does that mean you think the second coming takes place before the rapture?

What do people that think God is done with Israel do with this?

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

What do people that think God is done with Israel do with this?

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Those people would say God is not finished with them, but is daily calling Israelites to repentance and forgiving those who do, by the power of the cross.

Here is the context for ALL ISRAEL

Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

When the number of they that are required to fill the house is fulfilled....then the end will come. It is "whomsoever."

Salvation comes FIRST to the Jews THEN the Gentiles. After that the end comes when the fulness of the nations is accomplished.

People who use one verse to overturn the rest of scripture read ALL ISRAEL to mean...first the Gentiles and THEN the Jews. Is salvation really of the Gentiles?

Once you remove an exclusivity, you cannot go back and counter what you have done. Israel as a DNA nation was rejected. In fact God never was a DNA salvationist. God is not racist (unlike many who purport to believe in Him). The way is open for all...without prejudice or favouritism. God has opened things up. He will not close them again. There is only one race now...the race of faith!!!

Israel as a DNA nation was rejected.

This statement has nullified the word of God with this statement. "Sons" in Psalm 89 refer to DNA Israel.

30 “If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they break My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David:
36 His seed shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me;
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

Paul affirms this in Romans 11 (I think).
God keeps His Word, whether we keep it or not, even in the self-righteousness and pride Paul detests in Romans.

This statement has nullified the word of God with this statement. "Sons" in Psalm 89 refer to DNA Israel.

30 “If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they break My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David:
36 His seed shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me;
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

Paul affirms this in Romans 11 (I think).
God keeps His Word, whether we keep it or not, even in the self-righteousness and pride Paul detests in Romans.


The covenant with the sons in Psalms 89, is only the faithful within David's lineage. Not the unfaithful. Jeroboam was a wicked idolator who did not follow the Lord, and is not a member of the covenant of promise; although Jeroboam was David's son and of David's DNA lineage.

The promises to the OT lineage was to those of faith within the lineage, not to the unfaithful idolators and wicked baal worshippers within the lineage.

Faith is the common thread, not DNA.

Romans 9:8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

DNA members of Israel and descendants of David who reject the Lord, are not participants of the promises or the covenants of God. Only the faithful within Israel.

Faith within Israel has always been the key; not race or DNA.

I John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God"

To the unfaithful and unrighteous within the DNA of David, he says:

Psalms 5:9 "For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. "

This statement has nullified the word of God with this statement. "Sons" in Psalm 89 refer to DNA Israel.

30 “If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they break My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
And their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.
35 Once I have sworn by My holiness;
I will not lie to David:
36 His seed shall endure forever,
And his throne as the sun before Me;
37 It shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah

Paul affirms this in Romans 11 (I think).
God keeps His Word, whether we keep it or not, even in the self-righteousness and pride Paul detests in Romans.

which in turn nullifies this...

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

The covenant with the sons in Psalms 89, is only the faithful within David's lineage. Not the unfaithful. Jeroboam was a wicked idolator who did not follow the Lord, and is not a member of the covenant of promise; although Jeroboam was David's son and of David's DNA lineage.

The promises to the OT lineage was to those of faith within the lineage, not to the unfaithful idolators and wicked baal worshippers within the lineage.

Faith is the common thread, not DNA.

Romans 9:8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

DNA members of Israel and descendants of David who reject the Lord, are not participants of the promises or the covenants of God. Only the faithful within Israel.

Faith within Israel has always been the key; not race or DNA.

I John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God"

To the unfaithful and unrighteous within the DNA of David, he says:

Psalms 5:9 "For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. "

I am not speaking of individual unbelievers.

Speaking of national faith and unbelief:

Israel as a nation teaches their children from the Bible
America as a nation restricts the Bible at schools
Israel as a nation recognizes that without God, they don't have a leg to stand on, with God they have nothing to fear from men.
America as a nation does not depend on God for anything


I am not addressing personal salvation here, I am addressing God's promises to national Israel and God's purposes for DNA Israeli's described as the remnant.

The Bible doesn't teach salvation for the unrepentant, no matter who they are.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]
Israel’s Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

It is the remnant who is the manifestation of God's promise - and that remnant is DNA Israeli.

Some food for thought for you Arnie: :)


I take the position that All Israel will be saved as per Romans 9 (Israel past) , Romans 10 (Israel present) and Romans 11 (Israel future).


Before Paul said 'all Israel shall be saved' in Romans 11, he defined 'all Israel' in Romans 9?

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The NT speaks of 2 Israels. Israel of the flesh and Israel of the spirit. And the conflict was between the two during the birth of the church.

'All Israel' is speaking of spiritual and faithful Israel. Those who were faithful to the promises of the Messiah before His coming and those who are faithful to His fulfillment after His coming.

I would suggest extreme caution here, because to say that anyone can be saved based on their ethnicity, without Christ, completely undermines the Work of the Cross. No person who desires to serve Christ would in anyway want to undermine or diminish His Glorious Sacrifice. This would be no minor error to do such a thing.


There is also a rather unnoticed verse in the bible that says one day in the future , 10 gentiles will grab the hem of the robe of one Jew and he will lead them to Jerusalem. I would like to reserve one of those spots on your hem Fenris. (smile)
From Zechariah 8
23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

Zec 8:23 seems like a Messianic verse to me. Speaking of Christ.

Mat 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

I don't know of another person in scripture who had people touch the hem of His garment because they saw God in Him.

Let us not diminish those beautiful, poetic, Messianic verses by applying them to us fallible humans.

I pray that you think these things through very carefully and really dig into the NT to find your answers, because a good grounding in the NT really clears all this stuff up. (I say this from personal experience)

God bless,
chef

Zec 8:23 seems like a Messianic verse to me. Speaking of Christ.



It is not messianic.

I am Speaking of national faith

there is no national faith.

there is individual faith only.

Individual Israelites faithfully follow and serve christ.
people of all nations do and dont display faith.

america as a nation, israel as a nation, ireland as a nation, do not have or not have faith.

people have faith, and people are faithfully grafted as individuals into the holy olive tree.

The deliverer comes out of zion to deliver people, the faithful of the natural and wild branches.

Those people would say God is not finished with them, but is daily calling Israelites to repentance and forgiving those who do, by the power of the cross.Let me get this straight. The first time was a literal fulfillment.
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
The second is spiritual? Well then you have a huge problem. The context is judgment, wholly and completely. If Jesus meant he was now looking for a spiritual fulfillment of the prophecy, there is no judgment! Yet, the judgment is clear.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
They had rejected him and committed the unforgivable sin. He gave parables of his rejection, hiding the treasure he found, and a future wedding. He said those that were bid would not come so go and get others. Many are called few are chosen. He did not say go back to those that rejected me and not come, but in fact said the opposite. You are not understanding the purpose of the book. You are not understanding the verse in its context. You are just not making any sense of this passage at all. You speak contrary to it. It is as if you are reading another book. Anyone can spiritualize a verse or passage and come up with a strange doctrine, but that's not how we should interpret scripture. Mat 23:39 says what happened in Mat 21:9 will happen again. It is the only way it can be understood. Unless of course you just drop the book so that it opens wherever it will, pick a verse, then apply to it what you want it to mean.

What do people that think God is done with Israel do with this?

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


God is concerned with individual Israelites, and has been on that business for thousands of years.

He never implemented a plan-b, or a failed plan, or a postponed plan.

His true Isrealite children, those like Peter, James, and John...always have had the opportunity to accept Him, and be the true children of God. Those who reject and disbelieve Christ, are not the children of God.

Here are the true Israelites, faithful believers from all the house of Israel, who repent and follow Christ.

Christ is the only way. The cross was for Israel, and all Israelites who would believe.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do ? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off , even as many as the Lord our God shall call . 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort , saying , Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

who?
all the house of israel

who else?
and there children

what?
the promise of salvation and remission of sin

when?
immediately and to each generation onward.

why?
because Jesus died and paid the full price on the cross for every Israelite then and forevermore because of His great love for whosoever repents and believes and follows Him.

God is concerned with individual Israelites, and has been on that business for thousands of years.This is why you fail to see what Jesus is saying. As you said above you also said, "God ...........is daily calling Israelites to repentance and forgiving those who do". In Matthew, he came specifically to individual Israelites and individual Israelites only for this purpose and all but a few rejected Him and the call to repentance. Specifically saying that because they did this he spoke in parables so that they would not be converted and be healed. He did not at this point even want them to be converted and healed, he wanted to bring judgment on them and damn them for their unbelief. So tell me, who in the future will say Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord?

There's nothing new here David. Look at the history of the nation. Judgment and captivity to you, but I will deliver you. Deliverance never came to those the judgment was on. Deliverance came to a later generation. He said he did not want them converted and hardened their heart because of their unbelief, then also said they would say again, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. That's an impossibility. He had to be talking about a later generation because judgment was on that generation. He said that very clearly. He wasn't talking about the remnant. The remnant that ended up believing did not say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. It's an unfulfilled prophecy.

Specifically saying that because they did this he spoke in parables so that they would not be converted and be healed. He did not at this point even want them to be converted and healed, he wanted to bring judgment on them and damn them for their unbelief. So tell me, who in the future will say Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord?

That's baloney.

Had more Israelites repented and believed, God would much more have been pleased. The Will of the Father, according to John, is that all would come to repentance, and receive Eternal Life through His Son.

John 1:7 "that all men through him might believe. "

John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father."

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. "

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent

Matthew 9:13 I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 1:15 "repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent. "

Luke 3:3 "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins"

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. "




Judgement and damnation is only and always brought on the unbelievers who refuse to repent. It is never withheld from some who would otherwise repent and be saved.

To say that God didn't want the Israelites to be converted, healed but rather remain in unbelieve and be judged and damned for that is not God's will at all.

Everyone, in the future, who is saved and repents and comes into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is whom says 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. It is the mantra of all of the redeemed....as the see, receive, and accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour.

That's baloney.

Had more Israelites repented and believed, God would much more have been pleased. The Will of the Father, according to John, is that all would come to repentance, and receive Eternal Life through His Son.Baloney. The kingdom of heaven mysteries revealed something hidden from the foundation of the world that God knew. That Messiah would be cut off. That's why He was able to prophesy such. Very few believed at this point. John was written after the fact. This is the problem with reading the Bible as a devotional feel good book and yanking passages out of context as opposed to a historical account of what actually happened as it happened.


To say that God didn't want the Israelites to be converted, healed but rather remain in unbelieve and be judged and damned for that is not God's will at all.Jesus said it very plainly concerning those that did not believe. Can you not read?


Everyone, in the future, who is saved and repents and comes into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is whom says 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. It is the mantra of all of the redeemed....as the see, receive, and accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour.Baloney. It is a prophecy. It will literally be fulfilled the second time just as it was the first, accept with those that really believe and not those that seek after a sign and want to force him to be king because of the miracles. There is no scriptural reason to think otherwise. Your replacement theology has taught you this baloney. Thanks for the good laugh though.

Baloney...Why do you have to be sarcastic with the whole “baloney” stuff and the “thanks for the good laugh” comment? You’re mocking him and I take offense. I have been known to disagree with David Taylor on…several peripheral things, but…well, I guess I’m sensitive to sarcasm...it’s just not nice. Anyway…


The kingdom of heaven mysteries revealed something hidden from the foundation of the world that God knew. That Messiah would be cut off.What makes you think that because it was prophesied that Messiah would be cut off that God would not have been pleased had more Israelites repented and believed?

Let me just repeat what David wrote (it’s so precious and powerful and important)… “The will of the Father, according to John, is that ALL would come to repentance and receive Eternal Life through His Son.”


That's why He was able to prophesy such. Very few believed at this point. John was written after the fact. This is the problem with reading the Bible as a devotional feel good book and yanking passages out of context as opposed to a historical account of what actually happened as it happened.David Taylor is not one to read the Bible as a “devotional feel good book” and he certainly doesn’t “yank” passages out of context as opposed to reading it as an historical account of what happened. Why would you even say that?


Jesus said it very plainly concerning those that did not believe. Can you not read?Are you kidding? Again, I, personally, take offense. Look, I know David can speak for himself. But this comment “can you not read” is completely offensive to me and not appropriate for a brother in Christ to say to another brother. I’m personally asking you to think about your words here and consider giving David an apology. If you have a point to make, back it up with Scripture instead of using these insulting words.


Baloney. It is a prophecy. It will literally be fulfilled the second time just as it was the first, accept with those that really believe and not those that seek after a sign and want to force him to be king because of the miracles. There is no scriptural reason to think otherwise. Your replacement theology has taught you this baloney. Thanks for the good laugh though.I agree with you, but your offensive, insulting comments would make one turn away from even considering your insight.

Why do you have to be sarcastic with the whole “baloney” stuff and the “thanks for the good laugh” comment? You’re mocking him and I take offense.Ask David!
..................

That's baloney.

Ask David!
..................Ezer, David wasn't mocking you. At least, not in this post (I don't know of your past dialogues with David, but I’ve never known him to be insulting). He was telling you that it is baloney, in his opinion. But you were deliberately using his words to mock him. Your "thanks for the good laugh" comment added to the insult. Hey, your comments may not even bother David. He's been doing this a long time and I have a suspicion that he's got tough skin. But I'm calling you out. It was wrong of you and I'm asking you to consider that possibility. And, hey, maybe David did some things wrong that I don't know about, but this moment is not about what David has done in the past. This moment is about you. What do you think?

Ezer, David wasn't mocking you. At least, not in this post (I don't know of your past dialogues with David, but I’ve never known him to be insulting). He was telling you that it is baloney, in his opinion. But you were deliberately using his words to mock him. Your "thanks for the good laugh" comment added to the insult. Hey, your comments may not even bother David. He's been doing this a long time and I have a suspicion that he's got tough skin. But I'm calling you out. It was wrong of you and I'm asking you to consider that possibility. And, hey, maybe David did some things wrong that I don't know about, but this moment is not about what David has done in the past. This moment is about you. What do you think?You need to read it again. We used the same words with the same intent. We disagree and find the others argument unscriptural. It's that simple. If you want to call me out for that I am guilty and make no apology for it. I doubt David does either. This moment is about you.

You need to read it again. We used the same words with the same intent. We disagree and find the others argument unscriptural. It's that simple. If you want to call me out for that I am guilty and make no apology for it. I doubt David does either. This moment is about you.OK, Ezer, I read it again as you requested. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you use the word, "baloney" all the time and weren't copying him in an attempt to shove his words back in his face. Maybe you meant no offense at all when you accused David of reading the Bible as a "devotional feel good book" and insinuated that he can't read. And maybe you meant no sarcasm at all when you wrote, "thanks for the good laugh." Maybe I'm the only poster on this board who will ever take offense to what you've written. So...maybe I'm plain wrong. I'm sorry if I've misread you.

OK, Ezer, I read it again as you requested. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you use the word, "baloney" all the time and weren't copying him in an attempt to shove his words back in his face. Maybe you meant no offense at all when you accused David of reading the Bible as a "devotional feel good book" and insinuated that he can't read. And maybe you meant no sarcasm at all when you wrote, "thanks for the good laugh." Maybe I'm the only poster on this board who will ever take offense to what you've written. So...maybe I'm plain wrong. I'm sorry if I've misread you.Right. "thanks for the good laugh." = "baloney".

What makes you think that because it was prophesied that Messiah would be cut off that God would not have been pleased had more Israelites repented and believed?If there were more for Jesus, Jesus would have been released, not Barabbas. Where does that leave the cross and dispensation of grace?


David Taylor is not one to read the Bible as a “devotional feel good book” and he certainly doesn’t “yank” passages out of context as opposed to reading it as an historical account of what happened. Why would you even say that?Sorry, I missed this yesterday.
Because I see it in all his posts.


Are you kidding? If you have a point to make, back it up with ScriptureI need to post the passage where Jesus said why he spoke in parables and the OT reference? Are you saying there is more than one way to understand what Jesus said there? If so, back it up with scripture.

If there were more for Jesus, Jesus would have been released, not Barabbas. Where does that leave the cross and dispensation of grace?I don’t think you’re giving our infinitely intelligent and infinitely resourceful God enough credit here. Just because you can’t imagine another way for God to have figured things out had more Israelites repented doesn’t mean God couldn’t have figured it out. I don’t believe God has to override anyone’s will in order to accomplish His plans. I think He’s more resourceful than that.


I need to post the passage where Jesus said why he spoke in parables and the OT reference? Are you saying there is more than one way to understand what Jesus said there? If so, back it up with scripture.You said “Jesus said it very plainly” that “God didn’t want all the Israelites to be converted and healed but rather remain in unbelief and be judged and damned.” And then you wrote to David, “Can you not read?” Read what? Your take on some Scripture you didn’t offer? You claim that Jesus said it “very plainly.” I don’t think it’s much to ask that you present the Scripture that is apparently so plain and clear. So why would I have to back anything up when I’m not the one who made the claim?

I don’t think you’re giving our infinitely intelligent and infinitely resourceful God enough credit here. Just because you can’t imagine another way for God to have figured things out had more Israelites repented doesn’t mean God couldn’t have figured it out. I don’t believe God has to override anyone’s will in order to accomplish His plans. I think He’s more resourceful than that.I can image all day long but it was prophesied long before what would happen. God already knew. There is nothing for God to figure out. What happened happened because it is what happened, not because God arbitrarily caused it. God 'wanting' Israel to repent when he came and offered the kingdom to them is irrelevant to what is happening at the moment, which is his rejection and judgment because of that rejection. You can't come back and post some passage out of context saying God wants all to repent. Yes he did, but they didn't. Now what? As long as one looks at this out of context and through the new covenant lens, instead of through a historical and prophetic lens, they are going to miss it.


You said “Jesus said it very plainly” that “God didn’t want all the Israelites to be converted and healed but rather remain in unbelief and be judged and damned.” And then you wrote to David, “Can you not read?” Read what? Your take on some Scripture you didn’t offer? You claim that Jesus said it “very plainly.” I don’t think it’s much to ask that you present the Scripture that is apparently so plain and clear. So why would I have to back anything up when I’m not the one who made the claim?I did post it
"he spoke in parables so that they would not be converted and be healed"
You made the claim this was not really what he meant and gave no scripture reference.

I can image all day long but it was prophesied long before what would happen. God already knew. There is nothing for God to figure out. What happened happened because it is what happened, not because God arbitrarily caused it. God 'wanting' Israel to repent when he came and offered the kingdom to them is irrelevant to what is happening at the moment, which is his rejection and judgment because of that rejection. You can't come back and post some passage out of context saying God wants all to repent. Yes he did, but they didn't. Now what? As long as one looks at this out of context and through the new covenant lens, instead of through a historical and prophetic lens, they are going to miss it.

I did post it
"he spoke in parables so that they would not be converted and be healed"
You made the claim this was not really what he meant and gave no scripture reference.OK, I'm done. God Bless.

I did post it
"he spoke in parables so that they would not be converted and be healed"
You made the claim this was not really what he meant and gave no scripture reference.You seem to have misunderstood what Jesus said. Jesus spoke to them in parables, because the people were dull in hearing, but not in order to keep them from being converted. Since they were dull in hearing, if Jesus didn't want them not to be converted all he would need to do is keep silent. And besides, parables are analogies and analogies are meant to help explain and elucidate ideas, not obscure them. The people are dull of hearing sermons, so Jesus switches to stories. This is a strategy for sucess not failure.

You seem to have misunderstood what Jesus said. Jesus spoke to them in parables, because the people were dull in hearing, but not in order to keep them from being converted. Since they were dull in hearing, if Jesus didn't want them not to be converted all he would need to do is keep silent.If that were true Jesus would not have privately told the disciples the meaning. There's no getting around that.


And besides, parables are analogies and analogies are meant to help explain and elucidate ideas, not obscure them.I know that's what they teach in sunday school but it's not what Jesus said.


The people are dull of hearing sermons, so Jesus switches to stories. This is a strategy for sucess not failure.Why did it fail? You aren't making any sense at all.

If that were true Jesus would not have privately told the disciples the meaning. There's no getting around that.Yes, Jesus says that they were to know the hidden things of the kingdom. But it doesn't follow that since Jesus explained one parable, that the rest of the parables are incomprehensible.


I know that's what they teach in sunday school but it's not what Jesus said.I have no idea what you mean by this. What does Sunday school have to do with it?


Why did it fail?It didn't fail. That's my point.