Obama in his speech today said he wants Israel to go back to the 1967 borders. What were the 1967 borders and how are they different than Israel's borders today? I tried to google it and could not find the answer.

Wiki is your friend here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Is-wb-gs-gh_v3.png/374px-Is-wb-gs-gh_v3.png


....In 1967, as a result of the Six-Day War, Israel gained control of the West Bank (Judaea and Samaria), East Jerusalem, the Gaza strip and the Golan Heights. Israel also took control of the Sinai Peninsula, but returned it to Egypt as part of the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty....

FWIW, the Golan Heights are a significant strategic bit of ground... (a link to a BBC story); (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/country_profiles/3393813.stm)


Strategic importance
Southern Syria and the capital Damascus, about 60 km (40 miles) north, are clearly visible from the top of the Heights while Syrian artillery regularly shelled the whole of northern Israel from 1948 to 1967 when Syria controlled the Heights.
The heights give Israel an excellent vantage point for monitoring Syrian movements. The topography provides a natural buffer against any military thrust from Syria.....

As I have considered this, I believe this is the most significant anti-Israel position the US has ever taken.

I could not believe what I read about this. People fought many hard battles to gain this holy land for their country and now Obama wants to influence Israel to give back land that has been theirs for generations? I guess Israel can say that we should give all our land back to the Indians too. Our battle against the Indians was a one sided event, and the Israelis had to fight their heart out to win their victories. I just don’t understand how an ally can say something like this? Maybe now the Jewish population of America will take a stand against Obama in the election. Florida and New York are big states, and if he loses those electoral votes he may be in for a tough election.

What does Israel have to give up?????


I know..........existing.

Sorry, I did it again

Mm, mm, mm, my lips are tight, and my head is shaking.

You can probably imagine it better than I can explain, but you go the picture.

Doesn't Israel say they would support separate nations for the Palestinians? Where would the borders of those theoretical nations be?

Doesn't Israel say they would support separate nations for the Palestinians? Where would the borders of those theoretical nations be?

There have probably been 100 different proposals. None as severe as what Obama just suggested.

In 1967, all of Israels neighbors were going to wipe her off the map. She absolutely vanquished all her foes.

Egypt got spanked so badly they literally were glad for the suez canal... it probably kept Israel from going all the way to Cairo.

The Arabs were embarrassed, and it has been something of a rallying cry to return to the 1967 borders. It would be something like Mexico demanding we return to the 13 colonies... (no, actually nothing like that).

This was a very grave statement to make WRT our support of Israel.

Don't you always start out larger than you will settle for?

I'm seriously asking - not defending. I know better than to say anything that even remotely sounds supportive of the Palestinians unless I want my head handed to me.

You have to start somewhere. If you start with only the Gaza Strip, you'll end up with one refugee camp.

At least it's a place to start and work from. Netanyahu would never capitulate to those requests. Remember the Oslo Accords that ended up being proven a complete sham?

Don't you always start out larger than you will settle for?

I'm seriously asking - not defending. I know better than to say anything that even remotely sounds supportive of the Palestinians unless I want my head handed to me.

You have to start somewhere. If you start with only the Gaza Strip, you'll end up with one refugee camp.

At least it's a place to start and work from. Netanyahu would never capitulate to those requests. Remember the Oslo Accords that ended up being proven a complete sham?

Yes, if it was the Syrians making the demand Israel return to 1967 it would make sense... it is not. It is the president of the United States.... he is stabbing our ally in the back. It is a stunning reversal and betrayal of Israel.

And if you are Arab, you might see someone who will be fair instead of so slanted they look like venetian blinds.

First it was, "crammed down our throats" - is the new phrase going to be, "stabbed in the back"?

You know, people said the same thing about Jimmy Carter.

And if you are Arab, you might see someone who will be fair instead of so slanted they look like venetian blinds.

First it was, "crammed down our throats" - is the new phrase going to be, "stabbed in the back"?

You know, people said the same thing about Jimmy Carter.

I get it V, but really... this one is bad. Whatever else anyone believes about this, it is a betrayal of our long time ally.

It is as though we just told China that maybe they really should take back Taiwan.... or North Korea should annex the South.

Sorry Amos, I don't see it that way. I know you nor anyone else on this board will thin anything except what a dreadful man Obama is - it will confirm those allegations in many people's minds that he is a "secret Muslim" - or the antiChrist or whatever.

I think it's time someone tells BOTH sides to stop acting like whiners and grow up.

Sorry Amos, I don't see it that way. I know you nor anyone else on this board will thin anything except what a dreadful man Obama is - it will confirm those allegations in many people's minds that he is a "secret Muslim" - or the antiChrist or whatever.

I think it's time someone tells BOTH sides to stop acting like whiners and grow up.

But that is really not what is happening here.

I have been to Israel, I know that it is a fragment of a country. I have seen the IDF, I can imagine what it is like for them to literally live with their guns loaded to defend their families.

I get that there are many political storms that seem to be just that... political storms. This is not one of them. There is a very fragile, loyal ally that we have 'been tough' with many times... each time it has wound up poorly for them.

None of our earlier positions were as dangerous to Israel as this is...

Let's let it play out and see what happens. As I said, it will go the way of the Oslo accords - nowhere. With double speak and duplicitousness added in just in case it did go somewhere.

The Golan Heights are pretty important for Israel. If they lose them, they will be fish in a barrel. The pre-67 borders would put the west bank less than three miles from their airport. Does anyone really think all of these people who threaten and attack Israel nearly every day will stop if she goes back to the pre-67 borders? No - they were not happy with those borders and that is why they attacked her in the first place. And is it in any way using your dipstick to get on national tv and propose this while the entire middle east is on fire and no one knows who will take power, keep power, etc., in all these places surrounding Israel where they are rioting in the streets? She is surrounded by HOW many civil wars right now. At the very least, it is hideous timing.

I am with Amos ....Israel was thrown under the bus but this president and I am not shocked. This is bad but good in a bigger way I see the end getting closer

I am with Amos ....Israel was thrown under the bus but this president and I am not shocked. This is bad but good in a bigger way I see the end getting closer

Me too! I think it's all coming to a head.
I agree with the intelligent and handsome looking dog!

Wow, what a dramatic turnaround for the US.

Yeah. It's a bit shocking - the speed with which the turnaround seemed to happen. But from all I've read in the bible, it is when the entire world (and us too now apparently) turns on her and all of her hope for survival is gone, she'll call on God because there's no one else left.

There is a firm commitment towards the total destruction of Israel by many in the middle east. They have vowed annihilation of their country and the genocide of their people.

The United States of America made a firm promise to Israel in 2004 that we would not ask Israel to return to 1967 borders in exchange for certain concessions from Israel that they made in good faith.

This is what we have come to? To turn our back on one of our allies?

To renege on our promises and make the word of the United States worth nothing more than dust in the wind?

President Obama knows full well that if Israel accepted the asinine demand to return to 1967 borders that Israel would be committing suicide.

What? Would they be expected to accept the United States pledge to help protect them and view their security as sacrosanct?

We've just proven what our pledges are worth these days.

I do not think that Obama is a "secret Muslim."

I think that he is inept as far as being the president of the U.S.A.

Yeah. It's a bit shocking - the speed with which the turnaround seemed to happen. But from all I've read in the bible, it is when the entire world (and us too now apparently) turns on her and all of her hope for survival is gone, she'll call on God because there's no one else left.

Honestly dealing with the issue is not "turning on her", it's simply....well....honestly dealing with it. The only thing Obama did was voice what most of us have known all along. There will never be a chance for peace in the region as long as the Palestinian regions are occupied. Israel and the United States remain allies, but facts are facts.

There has to be a war before there is a peace treaty and for those that believe that the peace treaty is a part of the end times scenario... there you go. If there is an attempt at any time to force such a thing... there will be a war in Israel again. For those that don't see things shaping up and moving toward prophetic Scripture nearing the return of Christ... not much I can to you. Those that do... don't sweat it much. What happens must happen because Scripture says it will happen. If the peace treaty issue is in fact part of that event... then it's got to get ugly over there first. For years, the US was the protector of Israel in a multitude of ways. No country in their right mind would go all out against Israel because they would be going all out against Israel and the US. I don't believe for a New York second that the US would get involved today were something to happen. Ultimately they would because the political pressure would be more than any politician in the US could bear... but that would come after all the pandering and posturing and by then... it would be leaning towards the treaty aspect.

What I don't get, is why would the US think they have any right to tell Israel what to do and what not to do. Israel was attacked, they won that land in war. It isn't like Israel said we want that land and attacked to get it, they, in defense, won the land.
This is betrayal, and we have no right.

Ok, here goes the rant, please don't take personally and I am just calling like I see it, straight up.

It's cowardly which equates to bowing down. This country does not trust God enough to stand by Israel. And this is so straight forward it really matters not what someone believes the Bible says regarding Israel, the fact is, wrong is wrong.

What happened when Israel, in the OT accounts tried to trust Gentile nations as opposed to doing right by God. Read the prophets.

If the US is so bent on siding with the Arabs and not only doing what is just plain politically wrong, but also going against God. God is liable to give us what we sided with .....

I am with Amos ....Israel was thrown under the bus but this president and I am not shocked. This is bad but good in a bigger way I see the end getting closer

Ditto..........

There has to be a war before there is a peace treaty and for those that believe that the peace treaty is a part of the end times scenario... there you go. If there is an attempt at any time to force such a thing... there will be a war in Israel again. For those that don't see things shaping up and moving toward prophetic Scripture nearing the return of Christ... not much I can to you. Those that do... don't sweat it much. What happens must happen because Scripture says it will happen. If the peace treaty issue is in fact part of that event... then it's got to get ugly over there first. For years, the US was the protector of Israel in a multitude of ways. No country in their right mind would go all out against Israel because they would be going all out against Israel and the US. I don't believe for a New York second that the US would get involved today were something to happen. Ultimately they would because the political pressure would be more than any politician in the US could bear... but that would come after all the pandering and posturing and by then... it would be leaning towards the treaty aspect.

I agree with you. I do believe though that the US will be help accountable for her actions....? Agree? or no

I agree with you. I do believe though that the US will be help accountable for her actions....? Agree? or no

I don't think there is any doubt about that.

What I don't get, is why would the US think they have any right to tell Israel what to do and what not to do. Israel was attacked, they won that land in war. It isn't like Israel said we want that land and attacked to get it, they, in defense, won the land.
This is betrayal, and we have no right.

Ok, here goes the rant, please don't take personally and I am just calling like I see it, straight up.

It's cowardly which equates to bowing down. This country does not trust God enough to stand by Israel. And this is so straight forward it really matters not what someone believes the Bible says regarding Israel, the fact is, wrong is wrong.

What happened when Israel, in the OT accounts tried to trust Gentile nations as opposed to doing right by God. Read the prophets.

If the US is so bent on siding with the Arabs and not only doing what is just plain politically wrong, but also going against God. God is liable to give us what we sided with .....

Everyone is permitted to think what they want to here but for starters, how about the fact we give Israel somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 million dollars A DAY in "aid"?

Here's an interesting article - just the highlights:


http://www.nytimes.com/1993/10/12/world/israel-selling-china-military-technology-cia-chief-asserts.html
Israel has sold advanced military technology to China for more than a decade and is moving to expand its cooperation with Beijing, says R. James Woolsey, the Director of Central Intelligence. <snip>

>snip>The C.I.A. says China has been acquiring advanced military technology from Israel for more than a decade on programs for jet fighters, air-to-air missiles and tanks. The agency said the sale of Israeli military technology to China "may be several billion dollars."

Despite the previous reports, the bluntness of the C.I.A. assessment surprised Congressional specialists and appears to reflect a growing concern among American intelligence experts that China is seeking to use Israel indirectly to obtain military technology that United States and other Western nations have refused to sell to Beijing.

The intelligence agency reports that despite worries in the West about China's military buildup and its export of missile systems and other weapons to Pakistan, Iran and other nations, Israel has continued to share military technology with the Chinese.<snip>

Sooooooo - while WE view China as a proliferation threat and would not share our techology with them, we GIVE Israel the technology and they sell it to the Chinese for a billion dollars ALL THE WHILE taking more American dollars in "aid".

What great friends they are. But why would we expect anything different?

This is part of a transcript of a video tape that was recorded accidentally in 2001:


Netanyahu: Especially today, with America. I know what America is. America is something that can easily be moved. Moved to the right correction.
Child: They say they’re for us, but, it’s like…
Netanyahu: They won’t get in our way. They won’t get in our way.

It's all politics. Israel is NOT the Israel of the Old Testament. It is a secular government like any other nation.

Everyone is permitted to think what they want to here
ok :)
I didn't mean to imply differently, just speaking what I think


but for starters, how about the fact we give Israel somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 million dollars A DAY in "aid"?
What about all the US aid that goes to countries that would not be considered strong allies? or even "allies" at all.
We send that much or more to other countries, countries that are a lot more threat than Israel.


Here's an interesting article - just the highlights:
You misunderstand me. I am not saying I think what I think because Israel is perfect. Thats is not my point at all. However this does not change anything regarding land that belongs to Israel nor make it ok to force them to give up land that is theirs fair and square. Had the surrounding countries not attacked Israel, it would not be land that Israel has now.


Sooooooo - while WE view China as a proliferation threat and would not share our techology with them, we GIVE Israel the technology and they sell it to the Chinese for a billion dollars ALL THE WHILE taking more American dollars in "aid".


Selling technology to China will probably prove to not be a good idea, but more for Israel than for the US. But the US is far from innocent when it comes to the dos and don'ts of politics. I mean the US is sending aid to countries that would be more than pleased to destroy us tomorrow.
Maybe if we were not so bent on them giving up, strategic to their security, land they would have given the threat to our well being missile sale another thought and not done it?


What great friends they are. But why would we expect anything different?
There is a lot of history that has gone down since the Balfour Act, at this point Israel has no real reason to place a great deal of trust in US policy. I certianly disagree with this sale, but like I said, we are training soldiers for countries that really would prefer, and that is putting it nicely, that Israel would disappear.

What about the great friends we send money to all over the world, many of them chanting against the country and burning our flag. We are sending aid to countries that surround Israel, right next door, who have sworn to annihilate them. And as far as democracy goes, when those countries do get a "democratic" vote, they vote in Hamas. Isn't that who is in charge in Palestine? At least Israel does not want to bomb us and has not sworn to destroy us, nor are they burning our flag.
With the presidency more than showing such iffyness, Israel will most likely do what they think have to do. Business is business, as they say.


This is part of a transcript of a video tape that was recorded accidentally in 2001:
Israel, like any country, will do what she thinks she must to survive. Unfortunately, as you say, she is not standing right before God. But that is between Israel and God.



It's all politics. Israel is NOT the Israel of the Old Testament. It is a secular government like any other nation.
Ok, and like any other nation we should not be telling them to give up land.

Isreal, as in the past, will no doubt suffer do to her lack of being right with God. But that doesn't change anything between me and God, so I have to go with what I believe God has said, and that is to leave Israel alone, especially when it comes to telling them what to do with the land in their own country.

And that is not to imply you must feel the same way, do as you think God instructs, that is what you should do. Just because I feel strongly on this issue does not mean I meant to imply others are not allowed to say and believe as they think.

I think Israel should have these borders:

http://www.biblicalwitnessforisrael.com.au/images/future_israel.jpg

Is it negotiation when you ask one side to give up nothing and the other side to give up everything? Obama is asking Israel to give up alot. What the is asking the Palestinians to give up?

Hey V,

To respond to your question, East Jerusalem continues to be a thorny issue. Palestine has demanded this as a capital, so has Israel. Palestine demands a military, Israel demands that they stay de-militarized.

Palestine demands Israel withdraw from the Jordan, Israel wants troops along the Jordan no matter what. There has been some discussion of possibly trading Israeli-majority land in the West Bank for Arab majority land in the North, but unless Palestine recognizes the right of Israel to exist, there won't be any negotiations or peace. There actually CAN'T be any peace so long Israel's neighbors don't recognize its right to exist. The crisis is unresolvable because it's essentially a war for survival.

Honestly dealing with the issue is not "turning on her", it's simply....well....honestly dealing with it. The only thing Obama did was voice what most of us have known all along. There will never be a chance for peace in the region as long as the Palestinian regions are occupied. Israel and the United States remain allies, but facts are facts.

So we will see if the problem of peace will be solved by going back to pre-67 borders if and when it happens. The reason they expanded their borders is BECAUSE there was not peace, but war. If there was no peace when the borders stood in 67, I do not think returning them to that will now bring peace.
I do not think it will bring peace. I think it will make them bomb the airport and lob stuff off the Golan Heights at them. But we will see, I guess.

ok :)
I didn't mean to imply differently, just speaking what I think

Exactly. So was I. I would rather not be branded a heretic or an unbeliever because of this by anyone but I know I will be, even if it is a silent condemnation. Been there, done that.

I don't fault anyone for their support of Israel. I support Israel's right to be a sovereign nation and I also believe they should stick up for what they believe no matter who they might offend.



What about all the US aid that goes to countries that would not be considered strong allies? or even "allies" at all.
We send that much or more to other countries, countries that are a lot more threat than Israel.

No, we do not. Israel get more aid than any other nation.


Table 5. Top 10 Recipients of U.S. Foreign Aid in FY2009, FY2010 Request
(in millions of current $)
FY2009 Est. FY2010 request
Country Estimated Allocation Country Requested Allocation
Israel 3,105 Afghanistan 2,777
Afghanistan 2,676 Israel 2,775
Pakistan 2,119 Pakistan 1,582
Egypt 1,866 Egypt 1,555
Jordan 1,022 Jordan 693
West Bank & Gaza 910 Kenya 659
Kenya 702 Nigeria 561
Mexico 673 South Africa 548
Iraq 588 Ethiopia 546
Ethiopia 575 Colombia 513

Note: FY2009 figures are preliminary estimates from the F Bureau that include all supplementals.



You misunderstand me. I am not saying I think what I think because Israel is perfect. Thats is not my point at all. However this does not change anything regarding land that belongs to Israel nor make it ok to force them to give up land that is theirs fair and square. Had the surrounding countries not attacked Israel, it would not be land that Israel has now.

That I can and will agree with. However, if you wat peace, you have to be willing to give a little to get a lot.



Selling technology to China will probably prove to not be a good idea, but more for Israel than for the US. But the US is far from innocent when it comes to the dos and don'ts of politics. I mean the US is sending aid to countries that would be more than pleased to destroy us tomorrow.
Maybe if we were not so bent on them giving up, strategic to their security, land they would have given the threat to our well being missile sale another thought and not done it?

You have completely misunderstood what I am saying.
* This is not about the US - this is about Israel and what they have done and are doing
* The US is sending AID to countries - NOT SELLING the technology we provided them FREE to a country that we view with great suspicion.
* I have no idea what your last sentence means


There is a lot of history that has gone down since the Balfour Act, at this point Israel has no real reason to place a great deal of trust in US policy. I certianly disagree with this sale, but like I said, we are training soldiers for countries that really would prefer, and that is putting it nicely, that Israel would disappear.

Should the US be looking out for the US's interests or does Israel take top priority? I assume you are referring to Iraq when you talk about training troops?


What about the great friends we send money to all over the world, many of them chanting against the country and burning our flag. We are sending aid to countries that surround Israel, right next door, who have sworn to annihilate them. And as far as democracy goes, when those countries do get a "democratic" vote, they vote in Hamas. Isn't that who is in charge in Palestine?

No. Hamas is in charge in Gaza, not The West Bank.


At least Israel does not want to bomb us and has not sworn to destroy us, nor are they burning our flag.
No, they'll just take our money and do what they want anyway.


With the presidency more than showing such iffyness, Israel will most likely do what they think have to do. Business is business, as they say.
Yes, business is business. That's exactly what Obama is doing and he is being criticized for it.

But then, it's Obama. I knew I shoulda stayed out of this one.


Israel, like any country, will do what she thinks she must to survive. Unfortunately, as you say, she is not standing right before God. But that is between Israel and God.


Ok, and like any other nation we should not be telling them to give up land.

Isreal, as in the past, will no doubt suffer do to her lack of being right with God. But that doesn't change anything between me and God, so I have to go with what I believe God has said, and that is to leave Israel alone, especially when it comes to telling them what to do with the land in their own country.

And that is not to imply you must feel the same way, do as you think God instructs, that is what you should do. Just because I feel strongly on this issue does not mean I meant to imply others are not allowed to say and believe as they think.[/QUOTE]

....I do not think it will bring peace. I think it will make them bomb the airport and lob stuff off the Golan Heights at them. But we will see, I guess.

Yes. These experiments have not gone well in the past... very little guess work involved. :hmm:

Hey V,

To respond to your question, East Jerusalem continues to be a thorny issue. Palestine has demanded this as a capital, so has Israel. Palestine demands a military, Israel demands that they stay de-militarized.

Palestine demands Israel withdraw from the Jordan, Israel wants troops along the Jordan no matter what. There has been some discussion of possibly trading Israeli-majority land in the West Bank for Arab majority land in the North, but unless Palestine recognizes the right of Israel to exist, there won't be any negotiations or peace. There actually CAN'T be any peace so long Israel's neighbors don't recognize its right to exist. The crisis is unresolvable because it's essentially a war for survival.

Agreed. Two sides to the whole thing, not one.

The Palestinians (and Arab nations over all) must agree that Israel has a right to exist

Israel needs to get out of the "occupied territories".

If they would talk to each other instead of posturing, maybe something could be accomplished.

Israel needs to get out of the "occupied territories".


But what exactly do you mean by "occupied territories"?

Many who use that term are referring to Israel itself.

But what exactly do you mean by "occupied territories"?

Many who use that term are referring to Israel itself.

Was the West Bank set aside for the Palestinians?

Israel, under attack and a state of war annexed that territory in legitimate defense.

It's not the US's or any other nation's place to dictate these terms, especially
since Israel's right to exist is not being declared by these enemies on her borders, and
missiles contine to be launched from those locations.

The wording of this latest rhetoric levies responsibility upon Israel, implying that Israeli
policy is the culprit.

US support for our friend, Israel, has just left the building.

Hey V,

To respond to your question, East Jerusalem continues to be a thorny issue. Palestine has demanded this as a capital, so has Israel. Palestine demands a military, Israel demands that they stay de-militarized.

Palestine demands Israel withdraw from the Jordan, Israel wants troops along the Jordan no matter what. There has been some discussion of possibly trading Israeli-majority land in the West Bank for Arab majority land in the North, but unless Palestine recognizes the right of Israel to exist, there won't be any negotiations or peace. There actually CAN'T be any peace so long Israel's neighbors don't recognize its right to exist. The crisis is unresolvable because it's essentially a war for survival.

I think the East Jerusalem problem will be the sticking point they will not get past.

I can see the Palestinians agreeing to give up part of the West Bank to get the IDF out of their land and lives. I can see Israel agreeing to leaving the West Bank if it is redrawn where Israel ends up with the 40% they now occupy.

I can't see either of them willingly giving up their stakes on Jerusalem.

First osama now he's giving land to the palestinians??? And he doesn't have the right to tell any nation anything!!! He has to play the hero's role that way he will get the muslim vote along with all the others who blindly voted for him in the first place.


"obamaman will save the day"



No he won't.

....I can see the Palestinians agreeing to give up part of the West Bank to get the IDF out of their land and lives.....

Land for peace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_for_peace) has been a completely and utterly futile policy for Israel...

The Palestinians gained land, and superior firing positions for their rocket attacks.

This is ridiculous. When George W. Bush said the EXACT SAME THING in 2005, it was ok. But Obama says it, and those who supported Bush are now acting completely shocked. Even Pat Buchanan is saying that the Republicans are grasping at straws here. Everybody, including Israel's last Prime Minister for Pete's sake, understands that to secure peace, the starting place is the 1949 borders. Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take.

Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take

By that I guess you mean Israel does the giving and the Palestinians the taking? What exactly will the Palestinians be giving?

This is ridiculous. When George W. Bush said the EXACT SAME THING in 2005, it was ok. But Obama says it, and those who supported Bush are now acting completely shocked. Even Pat Buchanan is saying that the Republicans are grasping at straws here. Everybody, including Israel's last Prime Minister for Pete's sake, understands that to secure peace, the starting place is the 1949 borders. Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take.

No disconnect here... it was a incredibly WRONG move when he did it... but how much worse is it now with the specter of that failure?

I do believe a case could be made that there was a climate that was different then, it seemed like there was a desire on both sides to try something...
... there is nothing like that now.

A wise statesman givse our immature, indecisive, green POTUS a reality check and a histiory lesson.

How embarrassing.

My apologies to Israel on behalf of the country I once was honored to serve, but now has no honor.

This is ridiculous. When George W. Bush said the EXACT SAME THING in 2005, it was ok. But Obama says it, and those who supported Bush are now acting completely shocked. Even Pat Buchanan is saying that the Republicans are grasping at straws here. Everybody, including Israel's last Prime Minister for Pete's sake, understands that to secure peace, the starting place is the 1949 borders. Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take.

This isn't about Bush. Sorry but you can't save obama

Sorry Amos, I don't see it that way. I know you nor anyone else on this board will thin anything except what a dreadful man Obama is - it will confirm those allegations in many people's minds that he is a "secret Muslim" - or the antiChrist or whatever.

I think it's time someone tells BOTH sides to stop acting like whiners and grow up.

I'm sorry to say this, but this attitude shows incredible naivity. When virtually the entire Arab world attacked Israel in 1948 in a genocidal attempt to annailate the Jews, there were two batches of refugees created. The Arabs now coined as "Palisitinians" and as many Jews who were torn from their homes and thrown out of the surrounding Arab nations they had called their home. Israel absorbed ALL those refugees illegally booted out of the surrounding Arab nations, but NOT ONE Arab nation offered to absorb their own brothers even though the surrounding Arab nations have 1000x times the land and 1000x the resources.

And you want us and Israel to negotiate with this and trust them? Not going to happen.

Maybe Obama should bone up on his diplomatic skills first by giving Texas back to Mexico.

I'm sorry to say this, but this attitude shows incredible naivity. When virtually the entire Arab world attacked Israel in 1948 in a genocidal attempt to annailate the Jews, there were two batches of refugees created. The Arabs now coined as "Palisitinians" and as many Jews who were torn from their homes and thrown out of the surrounding Arab nations they had called their home. Israel absorbed ALL those refugees illegally booted out of the surrounding Arab nations, but NOT ONE Arab nation offered to absorb their own brothers even though the surrounding Arab nations have 1000x times the land and 1000x the resources.

And you want us and Israel to negotiate with this and trust them? Not going to happen.

Maybe Obama should bone up on his diplomatic skills first by giving Texas back to Mexico.

Amen...I didn't know that about the "Palestinians". I have often wondered why one the huge Arab countries don't give up some of their land for the Palestinians.
I guess my question is just as naive.

This is ridiculous. When George W. Bush said the EXACT SAME THING in 2005, it was ok. But Obama says it, and those who supported Bush are now acting completely shocked. Even Pat Buchanan is saying that the Republicans are grasping at straws here. Everybody, including Israel's last Prime Minister for Pete's sake, understands that to secure peace, the starting place is the 1949 borders. Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take.

Wait, what?

I don't remember Bush saying the exact same thing in '05.

What exactly did he say?

And for the record, and I think I've posted this here before, I was never a Bush Jr supporter myself. He got a few things right but that's it. Overall he was a horrible president in my view.

I think Israel should have these borders:

http://www.biblicalwitnessforisrael.com.au/images/future_israel.jpg


:lol: I was just going to say that Israel should tell Obama (or any other POTUS) "how about we (Israel) go back to our Biblical borders", ..................which Israel could probably do quite easily if they really wanted to IMHO.

Wait, what?

I don't remember Bush saying the exact same thing in '05.

What exactly did he say?

And for the record, and I think I've posted this here before, I was never a Bush Jr supporter myself. He got a few things right but that's it. Overall he was a horrible president in my view.
I don't recall that either. I am curious as to what KT is referring to. Bush knew full well in 2004 the 67 borders weren't defensible and said as much. I don't recall it being in the early "Roadmap to Peace". Recall, that roadmap had, as Phase 1, an end to the terrorism and violence by the Palestinians. Never happened.

But even if true, every optimistic hope for peace Bush or anyone else may have had, changed in 2006 when Hamas won PA parliamentary elections. Both Bush and Israel announced they would not deal at all with Hamas until they renounced their goal of destroying Israel and annihilating the Jews. That they've never done either; it would in effect renounce their reason for existing.

At any rate, what matters is what is appropriate for today, not 5 or 10 years ago. With Hamas rejoining Fatah, there just isn't anyone to negotiate peace with.

:lol: I was just going to say that Israel should tell Obama (or any other POTUS) "how about we (Israel) go back to our Biblical borders", ..................which Israel could probably do quite easily if they really wanted to IMHO.

As described here in the deed to the land;

Exodus 23:27-33 (New King James Version)

27 “I will send My fear before you, I will cause confusion among all the people to whom you come, and will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. 28 And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite from before you. 29 I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased, and you inherit the land. 31 And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea, Philistia, and from the desert to the River. For I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. 32 You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. 33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against Me. For if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.

I think Israel should have these borders:

http://www.biblicalwitnessforisrael.com.au/images/future_israel.jpg


:lol: I was just going to say that Israel should tell Obama (or any other POTUS) "how about we (Israel) go back to our Biblical borders", ..................which Israel could probably do quite easily if they really wanted to IMHO.

This is ridiculous. When George W. Bush said the EXACT SAME THING in 2005, it was ok. But Obama says it, and those who supported Bush are now acting completely shocked. Even Pat Buchanan is saying that the Republicans are grasping at straws here. Everybody, including Israel's last Prime Minister for Pete's sake, understands that to secure peace, the starting place is the 1949 borders. Then the two sides can do a little give-and-take.

I hear alot of Dems, the left and lib saying this. I don't ever recall BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH saying the "exact same thing". I'd love to see where he said this.

I hear alot of Dems, the left and lib saying this. I don't ever recall BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH saying the "exact same thing". I'd love to see where he said this.

Don't you just love that "but what about Bush".

Exactly. So was I. I would rather not be branded a heretic or an unbeliever because of this by anyone but I know I will be, even if it is a silent condemnation. Been there, done that.
I don't think you a heretic, never crossed my mind. :hug: I don't think any one else does. Many agree with you. There are many who do not agree with me in terms of what I believe. Of course I have been called a number of names, that is true. But I don't worry about it anymore.
I spent a year and a half learning not to worry about it, but thats another matter... :lol:


I don't fault anyone for their support of Israel. I support Israel's right to be a sovereign nation and I also believe they should stick up for what they believe no matter who they might offend.
Then we have found common ground


No, we do not. Israel get more aid than any other nation. Ok, but I would still vote for that more so than some of the others. The numbers I found were different but what I found may not be accurate.


That I can and will agree with. However, if you wat peace, you have to be willing to give a little to get a lot. That takes us back to the OP. When the other side is declaring to destroy and eliminate Israel, there will be no peace, no matter what Israel gives up. And they have also declared that when they get done exterminating the Jews, they intend to do the same to the Christians, there will be no peace when one side only wants to destroy the other. Regardless of Israel, the number of Christians that are being persecuted is reason enough to pull our money back, but the media certainly does not report on the atrocities. I mean all other religions expect full rights here in the US and then persecute Christians in there countries, and I guess whoever else disagrees with the countries policies/religion.


You have completely misunderstood what I am saying.
* This is not about the US - this is about Israel and what they have done and are doing
* The US is sending AID to countries - NOT SELLING the technology we provided them FREE to a country that we view with great suspicion.

But the US has sold weapons to countries that next week may turn and use on us. I agree, Israel sold this technology , but this administration has not been pro Israel, not that previous administrations have been as pro Israel as they would like us to believe either.
If Israel were practically demanding us to "give back" land that we won fair and square defending ourselves from attack, and without that land we would be more than vulnerable to enemies who have sword to eliminate us, we would not be all to favorable to them either. And like I said, Israel will probably come to regret the decision.


Should the US be looking out for the US's interests or does Israel take top priority? I assume you are referring to Iraq when you talk about training troops? I think the US should be looking out for her interest, not at the peril of others, but the US is not making decision that will keep her strong, she is falling apart.


No. Hamas is in charge in Gaza, not The West Bank.Sorry, got confused, but still, I was thinking about Palestine. But my point was, when a democratic vote was held, Hamas got voted in. Hamas that I think came out of the Muslim Brotherhood, who is now trying to get into the Egyptian elections. Anyway, thats kinda off track.


No, they'll just take our money and do what they want anyway. They all feel that way, and our money is convenient but you can't buy love. That would apply to all.


Yes, business is business. That's exactly what Obama is doing and he is being criticized for it.
But then, it's Obama. I knew I shoulda stayed out of this one.I disagree with a lot in politics, This is not an personal attack against Obama. The whole thing is such a mess, and I don't think anyone could broker peace over there, but like I said, one side does not even recognize the other sides right to life, much less right to have a nation. Even if some type of peace agreement is established I won't get too excited because there is no way it can last with that level of hatred toward Jews and Christians going on.

I certainly do not think you a heretic, honestly, the thought never crossed my mind. So we disagree here and there, thats ok. There is a lot we do agree on too. You are far from the only one who disagrees with my stance in terms of what I believe the Bible says regarding Israel. And I do feel strongly about it and did not mean to come across in an ill manner, that was not my intent at all.

I hear alot of Dems, the left and lib saying this. I don't ever recall BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH saying the "exact same thing". I'd love to see where he said this.

He didn't.

Site: Huffington Post:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/israel-borders-obama-middle-east-speech_n_864306.html


Netanyahu said he would urge Obama to endorse a 2004 American commitment, made by then President George W. Bush, to Israel. In a letter at the time, Bush said a full withdrawal to the 1967 lines was "unrealistic" and a future peace agreement would have to recognize "new realities on the ground."

Israelis have interpreted Bush's commitment as U.S. support for retaining the major settlement blocs. Earlier this week, Netanyahu said Israel would have to retain the blocs as part of any future peace agreement.

Don't you just love that "but what about Bush".

He gets blamed for everything, even for things he didn't say. Isn't rap music his fault also??? :hmm: :P

He didn't.

Site: Huffington Post:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/israel-borders-obama-middle-east-speech_n_864306.html


Netanyahu said he would urge Obama to endorse a 2004 American commitment, made by then President George W. Bush, to Israel. In a letter at the time, Bush said a full withdrawal to the 1967 lines was "unrealistic" and a future peace agreement would have to recognize "new realities on the ground."

Israelis have interpreted Bush's commitment as U.S. support for retaining the major settlement blocs. Earlier this week, Netanyahu said Israel would have to retain the blocs as part of any future peace agreement.



That's what I thought. Let's see how the LSM and some of those on the left and libs spin this.

Me too! I think it's all coming to a head.
I agree with the intelligent and handsome looking dog!


Loling like crazy thanks for the lol's my very intellegent and handsome dog thanks you

PS I do not care who would have been president at the time anyone who would sell out Isreal is just wrong and well the stage is set

As I have considered this, I believe this is the most significant anti-Israel position the US has ever taken.

This is a disgrace. Obama is showing his true colors. Anti Israel. Pro Muslim.

This isn't about Bush. Sorry but you can't save obama

Actually, it *is*, since conservatives agreed with Bush. So for those who supported Bush, this Obama-bashing over this is nothing but hypocrisy.

I hear alot of Dems, the left and lib saying this. I don't ever recall BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH saying the "exact same thing". I'd love to see where he said this.

It's been running all day on every news network.....except Fox!

Actually, it *is*, since conservatives agreed with Bush. So for those who supported Bush, this Obama-bashing over this is nothing but hypocrisy.

Bush had no intention of actually doing it. He just bumped his gums to keep the Saudi's happy. Bush shipped Israel massive amounts of military hardware. Obama shipped Egypt massive amounts of military hardware.
For the record, I gave Bush pure hell for even suggesting land for peace; eventhough I knew full well he had no intention of actually doing it.

It's been running all day on every news network.....except Fox!

Not exactly... Foxy mentioned up-teen times

Glad Bush heard you loud and clear :D


Bush had no intention of actually doing it. He just bumped his gums to keep the Saudi's happy. Bush shipped Israel massive amounts of military hardware. Obama shipped Egypt massive amounts of military hardware.
For the record, I gave Bush pure hell for even suggesting land for peace; eventhough I knew full well he had no intention of actually doing it.

Glad Bush heard you loud and clear :D

I wrote him a letter. I even bashed him on these boards quite a bit.

I wrote him a letter. I even bashed him on these boards quite a bit.

CORRECTION: Glad Bush read your letter loud and clear

It's been running all day on every news network.....except Fox!

So what about the post below...........


He didn't.

Site: Huffington Post:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/israel-borders-obama-middle-east-speech_n_864306.html


Netanyahu said he would urge Obama to endorse a 2004 American commitment, made by then President George W. Bush, to Israel. In a letter at the time, Bush said a full withdrawal to the 1967 lines was "unrealistic" and a future peace agreement would have to recognize "new realities on the ground."

Israelis have interpreted Bush's commitment as U.S. support for retaining the major settlement blocs. Earlier this week, Netanyahu said Israel would have to retain the blocs as part of any future peace agreement.



.....dosen't sound like BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH wanted to push Israel back to pre-1967 borders to me.

ETA: Unless he said so else where, which I don't know about. Link where he anything like what Barry said??

This isn't about Bush. Sorry but you can't save obama

If ya'll are gonna talk about Obama, could you go get some duct tape so we can wrap V's head for when you make it explode? :eek: :lol::lol:

I'm sorry to say this, but this attitude shows incredible naivity. When virtually the entire Arab world attacked Israel in 1948 in a genocidal attempt to annailate the Jews, there were two batches of refugees created. The Arabs now coined as "Palisitinians" and as many Jews who were torn from their homes and thrown out of the surrounding Arab nations they had called their home. Israel absorbed ALL those refugees illegally booted out of the surrounding Arab nations, but NOT ONE Arab nation offered to absorb their own brothers even though the surrounding Arab nations have 1000x times the land and 1000x the resources.

And you want us and Israel to negotiate with this and trust them? Not going to happen.

Maybe Obama should bone up on his diplomatic skills first by giving Texas back to Mexico.

And the rest of it back to the indians

I hear alot of Dems, the left and lib saying this. I don't ever recall BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH saying the "exact same thing". I'd love to see where he said this.

I never heard it either.
but even stranger to me is this tactic I've been hearing for the last few years - no one ever complained when Bush did it... If a thing is wrong, then it's just wrong. It's not a valid defense of wrong to say no one ever complained about it before.
They say this about border control too, but I remember at least five heart attacks my own husband had over Bush not seeing to this.
And it was a constant refrain on talk radio for almost all of his presidency. They were very hard on Bush for this. Yet they keep saying no one complained about the borders when Bush was president. Strange!

He gets blamed for everything, even for things he didn't say. Isn't rap music his fault also??? :hmm: :P

Oh don't be ridiculous! Rap music isn't his fault!
Lady Gaga on the other hand, that's DEFINITELY his fault...

So what about the post below...........




.....dosen't sound like BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH wanted to push Israel back to pre-1967 borders to me.

ETA: Unless he said so else where, which I don't know about. Link where he anything like what Barry said??

Hey man, if you go to an office supply store and get one of those little cans of compressed air, it should clear up that problem youre having with your "o" key sticking so bad.

Oh don't be ridiculous! Rap music isn't his fault!
Lady Gaga on the other hand, that's DEFINITELY his fault...

Ahh, ok.........I was wondering about what caused Lady Gaga.


Hey man, if you go to an office supply store and get one of those little cans of compressed air, it should clear up that problem youre having with your "o" key sticking so bad.

Thanks for the advise. Will doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

:rofl:

When you declared war 4 times, lost 4 times, lost land because of that it becomes time to give up, humbly negotiate a good peace deal and stick to it. It's the normal way. Germany did it, Japan did it.

Instead the Palestinians prefer a different attitude: the land is for those who are willing to fight for it.

And the rest of it back to the indians

Maybe after Obama gives his property that he bought under shady conditions over to the Indians then he might have room to expect Israel to hand over their land that they won fair and square. :idea:

But the land is just an excuse. Israel could give them everything they ask for in return for lies about peace.

The only way that that Palestinians and Israel can have real peace talks and come to an agreement will happen is if and when the Muslims in the region stop indoctrinating their children in the concept that Jews are evil and must be killed. And that will never happen.

Israel is named the "Little Satan" by them and because of religious and cultural beliefs they want nothing more than to kill all Jews and wipe Israel off the map. Anything else said about the situation by them is a lie.

I do not think that Israel is spotless and pure but based on past history I can understand why they would have a survivalist attitude. And in the end they and all Christians know that there will never be peace for Israel until the huge battle were in every nation will be against her (Including America if we still exist as a country at the time) and God will defend His chosen people and defeat them all for His glory.

There will never be peace for Israel until God grants her that peace.

I feel kind of foolish getting mad over something (as I was in my previous post) that God is willing to happen.

Agreed. Two sides to the whole thing, not one.

The Palestinians (and Arab nations over all) must agree that Israel has a right to exist

Israel needs to get out of the "occupied territories".

If they would talk to each other instead of posturing, maybe something could be accomplished.

We've had this discussion before - but I'll ask again: are you at all aware of the impossibility of this as it relates to Islamic ideology? It would be a betrayal of Islamic ideals as severe as denying the cross would be for you. We've politicized this issue on this thread - which is why we continually miss the real issue as it relates to Islam. Not even "radical Islam" - just plain ol' Islamic ideology as it relates to land and Allah. The "non-radical" Muslims I interact with every day are shocked that Christians would ever sell their houses and buildings. They never abort their babies, and they never sell their land. Europe is discovering the implications of those two truths - and we're imagining that Islam will acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

We've had this discussion before - but I'll ask again: are you at all aware of the impossibility of this as it relates to Islamic ideology? It would be a betrayal of Islamic ideals as severe as denying the cross would be for you. We've politicized this issue on this thread - which is why we continually miss the real issue as it relates to Islam. Not even "radical Islam" - just plain ol' Islamic ideology as it relates to land and Allah. The "non-radical" Muslims I interact with every day are shocked that Christians would ever sell their houses and buildings. They never abort their babies, and they never sell their land. Europe is discovering the implications of those two truths - and we're imagining that Islam will acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

I had looked back through various peace plans - Oslo, Roadmap to Peace, etc. and Obama's recent statements, and there is always some statement to the effect that the Arab neighbors must renounce violence and terrorism, and recognize Israel's right to exist.

But it is like no one wants to talk about that. Everyone wants to talk about what Israel has to give up. Its the 800 pound gorilla at the dining room table no one wants to see.

So politicians spend incredible amounts of energy developing lengthy peace plans, with all these phases and confidence building steps, etc. All for naught because somewhere around step 1 is always the renounce violence part. The Muslims cannot get past it.

As long as the Koran exists and people believe what it says, there will be no peace.

I see Israel giving the U.S. the middle finger, and, to be honest, rightfully so. :2cents:

We've had this discussion before - but I'll ask again: are you at all aware of the impossibility of this as it relates to Islamic ideology? It would be a betrayal of Islamic ideals as severe as denying the cross would be for you.

We've politicized this issue on this thread - which is why we continually miss the real issue as it relates to Islam. Not even "radical Islam" - just plain ol' Islamic ideology as it relates to land and Allah.

The "non-radical" Muslims I interact with every day are shocked that Christians would ever sell their houses and buildings. They never abort their babies, and they never sell their land. Europe is discovering the implications of those two truths - and we're imagining that Islam will acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

This is an excellent post. This is the same idea I was sharing in the other thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/226842-Washington-and-Israel-.-So-the-count-down-begins?p=2684023#post2684023)...

It seems to me that the disconnect is significantly greater then a matter of -political preference.

I had looked back through various peace plans - Oslo, Roadmap to Peace, etc. and Obama's recent statements, and there is always some statement to the effect that the Arab neighbors must renounce violence and terrorism, and recognize Israel's right to exist.

But it is like no one wants to talk about that. Everyone wants to talk about what Israel has to give up. Its the 800 pound gorilla at the dining room table no one wants to see.

So politicians spend incredible amounts of energy developing lengthy peace plans, with all these phases and confidence building steps, etc. All for naught because somewhere around step 1 is always the renounce violence part. The Muslims cannot get past it.

As long as the Koran exists and people believe what it says, there will be no peace.

I would be curious to know if Obama mentioned any conditions being put on the Palestinians in exchange for Israel giving up this land. I'm no prophecy expert, but do you think that the future peace treaty might involve Israel giving up some land?

We've had this discussion before - but I'll ask again: are you at all aware of the impossibility of this as it relates to Islamic ideology? It would be a betrayal of Islamic ideals as severe as denying the cross would be for you. We've politicized this issue on this thread - which is why we continually miss the real issue as it relates to Islam. Not even "radical Islam" - just plain ol' Islamic ideology as it relates to land and Allah. The "non-radical" Muslims I interact with every day are shocked that Christians would ever sell their houses and buildings. They never abort their babies, and they never sell their land. Europe is discovering the implications of those two truths - and we're imagining that Islam will acknowledge Israel's right to exist?

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this from Islam itself? Islam as a religion actually allows for abortions, yet it is Eastern culture that highly values both land and children. It used to be this way in the West before the advent of Postmodernism and it continues to be this way for Christian nations that have not westernized yet (i.e. Christians in Lebanon, Georgia, Armenia, Africa, etc).

Because I know many Christians in the Middle East, I've seen how deep anti-Semitism can run. Evangelicals, Charismatics, Episcopalians, etc. and the American missionaries preaching to them are all quite anti-Israel. It's not limited to Muslims, and although I take it that your argument is that Islam is exacerbating it.

Just out of curiosity, where do you get this from Islam itself? Islam as a religion actually allows for abortions, yet it is Eastern culture that highly values both land and children. It used to be this way in the West before the advent of Postmodernism and it continues to be this way for Christian nations that have not westernized yet (i.e. Christians in Lebanon, Georgia, Armenia, Africa, etc).

Because I know many Christians in the Middle East, I've seen how deep anti-Semitism can run. Evangelicals, Charismatics, Episcopalians, etc. and the American missionaries preaching to them are all quite anti-Israel. It's not limited to Muslims, and although I take it that your argument is that Islam is exacerbating it.

I get it from various sources - either written, lecture, or personal / relational (both here and in the Middle East), etc. I know a large number of folks across the spectrum on the subject and have done some homework on it. I've talked to ex-Muslim terrorists, heads of missions organizations, Egyptians, Syrians, and Israeli's, and other various experts who have invested much time on the subject. The subject of birth rate is one thing, but Mohammed's (in the name of Allah), as well as early Muslim, Koran-driven zeal for land isn't really a secret obscure piece of information.

but Mohammed's (in the name of Allah), as well as early Muslim, Koran-driven zeal for land isn't really a secret obscure piece of information.

I'm actually more curious about your sources, I've talked with Muslims on all sides of the debate and it's like they're talking about two different religions (i.e. peaceful, liberal, Westernized Islam and fairly fundamentalist eastern Islam). Islam has undergone some pretty radical paradigm shifts throughout its history and sometimes I a sola scriptura Christian tend to read the Quran and Hadith like Muslims are sola scriptura themselves - this really isn't the case.

I'd like to hear about your experiences with ex-Islamic terrorists, I've only known one myself and he has the best explanation to the conflict I've ever heard - after he and some ex-Jewish believers washed each other's feet, he realized that only truly following Jesus can solve the conflict. He now runs a community center for Palestinian children in Sabra (a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon).

I'd also like to to read up on some sources, because I know that some forms of Islam claim that any land that has been "Islamized" must be reconquered, but I've never seen this in print and I wonder whether it is a later addition or a core tenant of faith (possibly originating sometime while Mohammed was still alive). Since Islam basically expanded without any major losses of land during and well after Mohammed's life, I wonder whether or not this doctrine crept in and became dogmatized by later biographers.

Good points. On the subject of birth rate and how Islam is slowly "out-pacing" the West, there are a few good books out there. On the subject of land and Islamic doctrine, I'll go back through my research and see what is lecture, what is conversation, and what is written.

When it comes to the ex-terrorist crowd, the guy I've spent some time with worked directly for the main guys (Arafat as a boy, Gaddafi as a teen / young adult - who called him a "son", and Hussein as an adult in his "fund-raising" days before they sent him here to America to spearhead the infiltration). Intense.

My main sources over the years have been my neighbors, my Egyptian friends, a few leaders from some Christian & Messianic organizations in Israel, and a friend that I consider to be the foremost expert on Islamic eschatology in the west. It will take me a while to shake the bushes and see where folks are getting their stuff - I know my friend has delved deeply into the post-Quranic writings of the different schools of thought (there are four?) mostly focusing on the Wahhabi sect, if that helps.

Either way, if your hope for peace is found in a return to a moderate, "pure" form of Islam, we're probably having the wrong conversation... :)

Because the worst president in American history thinks he calls the shots.

Because the worst president in American history thinks he calls the shots.

I never thought anyone would ever come remotely close to taking that title away from Jimmy Carter, but Obama has definitely become the riteful owner of the title.

Obama in his speech today said he wants Israel to go back to the 1967 borders. What were the 1967 borders and how are they different than Israel's borders today? I tried to google it and could not find the answer.

For what its worth, here is a complete transcript of the president's speech that is causing all the stir.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/mideast-in-turmoil/full-transcript-of-obama-s-middle-east-speech-1.363035

Good points. On the subject of birth rate and how Islam is slowly "out-pacing" the West, there are a few good books out there. On the subject of land and Islamic doctrine, I'll go back through my research and see what is lecture, what is conversation, and what is written.

When it comes to the ex-terrorist crowd, the guy I've spent some time with worked directly for the main guys (Arafat as a boy, Gaddafi as a teen / young adult - who called him a "son", and Hussein as an adult in his "fund-raising" days before they sent him here to America to spearhead the infiltration). Intense.

My main sources over the years have been my neighbors, my Egyptian friends, a few leaders from some Christian & Messianic organizations in Israel, and a friend that I consider to be the foremost expert on Islamic eschatology in the west. It will take me a while to shake the bushes and see where folks are getting their stuff - I know my friend has delved deeply into the post-Quranic writings of the different schools of thought (there are four?) mostly focusing on the Wahhabi sect, if that helps.

Hey Rookie,

Thanks for the reply, I'd be interested in reading it!


Either way, if your hope for peace is found in a return to a moderate, "pure" form of Islam, we're probably having the wrong conversation...

Oh no :) I haven't exactly met any Islamic eschatologists, but some of the goofballs I've met ( http://adamdeen.blogspot.com/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq_GGvJBr7o ) still support Sharia law, although they think it leads to a free-love Liberal society (which is strangely Israel-free).

But I've met some crazies too, at a popular level, many Muslims think of the 16th century Ottoman Empire as the ideal, including this fella I had the pleasure of meeting in Lebanon. http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/

What are your thoughts on the peace process? I personally believe that nothing short of finding Christ will bring an end to the conflict, but many folks in the know have other theories.

He didn't.

Site: Huffington Post:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/israel-borders-obama-middle-east-speech_n_864306.html


Netanyahu said he would urge Obama to endorse a 2004 American commitment, made by then President George W. Bush, to Israel. In a letter at the time, Bush said a full withdrawal to the 1967 lines was "unrealistic" and a future peace agreement would have to recognize "new realities on the ground."

Israelis have interpreted Bush's commitment as U.S. support for retaining the major settlement blocs. Earlier this week, Netanyahu said Israel would have to retain the blocs as part of any future peace agreement.


I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of the article above.........like I said, dosen't sound like Dubya wanted Israel to go back to pre-1967 borders. :hmm:

We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said Thursday.
There's a link below to the entire article.



White House press secretary Jay Carney also said that the idea of using the pre-1967 borders - also known as the borders set in 1949 - as a starting point for negotiations wasn't new. President Bill Clinton started from the same premise in trying to broker a peace deal in 2000.

In an April 2004 letter to then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, President George W. Bush suggested that the 1949-1967 borders were a starting point, but he also said that any final peace would be subject to agreements that would reflect Israel's settlements in some of the territory seized since 1967. "It is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiation will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949," Bush wrote.

In a 2005 news conference, Bush said that any "changes to the 1949 Armistice Lines must be mutually agreed to."

"Anybody who knows this issue knows that this has been an understood starting point," Carney said Friday.



Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/20/2890680/netanyahu-rebukes-obamas-idea.html#ixzz1N9GYNp2z

I would also ask that you look at this from your quoted post:

a future peace agreement would have to recognize "new realities on the ground."

It's the "land swaps" Obama spoke of. It also happens to be the "Jewish Settlements" into land granted the Palestinians. Something like 40% of the land granted to the Palestinians.

We believe the borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said Thursday.
There's a link below to the entire article.






Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/20/2890680/netanyahu-rebukes-obamas-idea.html#ixzz1N9GYNp2z

I would also ask that you look at this from your quoted post:


It's the "land swaps" Obama spoke of. It also happens to be the "Jewish Settlements" into land granted the Palestinians. Something like 40% of the land granted to the Palestinians.

Interesting article. So, what appears to be the main difference between the "language" Dubya used compared to BHO? I need to look in to this a bit.

As far as the "future peace agreements recognizing new realities on the ground", I kinda take that to mean 'the current are what they are, and peace must take this into consideration, not 1967, 1948, whatever'. I may very well be wrong on this take.

Obama has been back peddling ever since made his speech. You know there are Christians in the Palestine community so I am sure they read the bible too. A very large portion of it is dedicated to how the Lord went out of his way to help the Jewish people to find a home. He helped defeat their enemies in times of great despair, and he chose them to live in that land. As a Christian I am fully supportive of Israel having their home because it is very clear that it is God’s will to have them there. If I side with Obama, then I am going against the Lord.

One of the things I thought was pretty funny was when, at the joint presser, Netanyahu was speaking on the situation and giving the past history, how Barry was shooting daggers out his eyes at Netanyahu. Barry hates being opposed dosen't he.

One of the things I thought was pretty funny was when, at the joint presser, Netanyahu was speaking on the situation and giving the past history, how Barry was shooting daggers out his eyes at Netanyahu. Barry hates being opposed dosen't he.

Hmmm.....I wasn't going to say anything, as I didn't want to be misjudging, but that's what I thought as well. You could cut the tension with a knife in that place.

Now Obama is backpedalling. Anyone who thinks Obama is the anti-Christ is obviously wrong...Obama has neither the courage nor the tenacity to fill that role.

Obama has been back peddling ever since made his speech.

I agree he has been back peddling since his speech on Thurday. He said he was "clarifying" his position. Is he clarifying his position or completely changing it? What exactly is his position? Does anybody know? Does Obama himself know what his position is?

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

Yea pretty much huh?

frames this discussion well.

Yea pretty much huh?

frames this discussion well.

As Netanyahu would say: "reality check"

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.


Yea pretty much huh?

frames this discussion well.


As Netanyahu would say: "reality check"

That's it exactly. When there is peace... look up. It's not just going to be a "maybe" come that time. He's coming.

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

Which is nice to say, but can also post scriptures to go with it.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

As a Christian I am fully supportive of Israel having their home because it is very clear that it is God’s will to have them there. If I side with Obama, then I am going against the Lord.

Amen, brother!!!

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of this hatred that so many people have been spewing with all the talk of Israel in the news. Jesus died so that we might ALL have the opportunity for salvation, no matter if we were born into a Muslim family or a Christian one.

You do realize that millions of Arabs (and thousands of Palestinians) are Christians, don't you? You do realize that Jesus came to save the Cannanites, Samaritans, tax collectors, prostitutes, Ishmaelites, Hamites, Romans, Greeks, Barbarians, Cretans, Philistines, and Arabs just as much as he did Americans? Do you realize that Netanyahu, through his rejection of Jesus as a madman or liar, is not only rejecting Abraham and Isaac, but God the Father himself? To brand millions of Palestinians as "sons of Ishmael" is to completely misunderstand what it means to be a son of Ishmael or Isaac. (Hint: it doesn't have to do with genetics). The most you could say about this situation is that there is an unfortunate political conflict between two groups of people who are both quite unwilling to compromise. I'm all pro-Israel, but I'm pro-Jesus first and foremost.

Who are you to tell God who can and who can't have peace? Rather than dismiss the issue and say that nothing can be done, have you tried supporting a missionary in the region or going there yourself? There CAN be peace, but it will come about when both sides acknowledge Jesus as Lord, or at least take some steps to act in a more Christlike manner.

Quite frankly, I'm sick of this hatred that so many people have been spewing with all the talk of Israel in the news. Jesus died so that we might ALL have the opportunity for salvation, no matter if we were born into a Muslim family or a Christian one.

You do realize that millions of Arabs (and thousands of Palestinians) are Christians, don't you? You do realize that Jesus came to save the Cannanites, Samaritans, tax collectors, prostitutes, Ishmaelites, Hamites, Romans, Greeks, Barbarians, Cretans, Philistines, and Arabs just as much as he did Americans? Do you realize that Netanyahu, through his rejection of Jesus as a madman or liar, is not only rejecting Abraham and Isaac, but God the Father himself? To brand millions of Palestinians as "sons of Ishmael" is to completely misunderstand what it means to be a son of Ishmael or Isaac. (Hint: it doesn't have to do with genetics). The most you could say about this situation is that there is an unfortunate political conflict between two groups of people who are both quite unwilling to compromise. I'm all pro-Israel, but I'm pro-Jesus first and foremost.

Who are you to tell God who can and who can't have peace? Rather than dismiss the issue and say that nothing can be done, have you tried supporting a missionary in the region or going there yourself? There CAN be peace, but it will come about when both sides acknowledge Jesus as Lord, or at least take some steps to act in a more Christlike manner.

Amen.

Will there be lasting peace? Probably not. But are we to egg it on so millions can die?

The Obama speech was lengthy. I read it all today for the first time. He spoke of land swaps to make Israel DEFENSIBLE. But no one says that. They instead hold Netanyahu up as God's chosen. A man and a nation that rejects outright Jesus Christ.

It boggles the mind.

Kinda disingenuous to sit around and poke at Israel, to whom GOD gave the land while squatting on land that was taken without God's blessing 4000 years later.

A man and a nation that rejects outright Jesus Christ.

It boggles the mind.

And Abbas and the people whom he claims to represent have accepted Jesus as Saviour and Lord? Really?

What really boggles the mind is to insist that God alone saves sans the works of man on the one hand, yet usurp His throne by judging the salvation of a man and a nation on the other hand.

"For you will be judged as you have judged others" - Jesus

God is soverign. Let God do the judging and the saving. His arms are outstretched to both peoples.

There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

Heard of that one before. Where in Scripture?

And, did not something change when the temple curtain split in two? The new covenant? The Lord commanding the 11 eleven to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole world? Why would the Ishmael principle still stand today?

Just asking, no fixed opinion yet.

Who are you to tell God who can and who can't have peace? Rather than dismiss the issue and say that nothing can be done, have you tried supporting a missionary in the region or going there yourself? There CAN be peace, but it will come about when both sides acknowledge Jesus as Lord, or at least take some steps to act in a more Christlike manner.

I AM going there this November, God willing (and YES, as a missionary, not as a tourist)....and I agree with keck553. The book of Galatians lays out who the true sons of Isaac are, and that based on a spiritual heritage. Until our Lord Jesus Christ comes back to reign on this earth, there will NEVER be peace.

As I see it there are two main points in this discussion supporting the division of Israel. 1. There are Christians who are in Palestine 2. Land swaps will somehow make way for peace. When did salvation become dependent on attaining the promise land that God himself intended for the Israelites? I think our promise land is in heaven and peace in our heart to live anywhere here on earth. Also, it was the Lord himself leading the way on many battles to defeat the enemies of Israel so that they could have that land here on earth. It is his will. Should we challenge God’s will? I am 100% supportive in everything God wants. As for the second point being the solution, look at how peaceful the Arab nations are now in their own countries, and how violent they have been for ages. I just do not see how either point remotely constitutes the Jewish people abandoning their land for the Palestine nation to rise up in its midst.

Obama in his speech today said he wants Israel to go back to the 1967 borders. What were the 1967 borders and how are they different than Israel's borders today? I tried to google it and could not find the answer.

It is my considered opinion that Israel is being asked to give up way too much to gain what will not be a lasting state. Given the state of unrest in the Moslem world of that region, someone, having come to power, will start the 'Annihilate' Israel mantra, and the powder keg will ignite. Netanyahu needs to tell BHO to just step aside. obama would give the Israelis no help, and is powerless to really aid the Moslems with the material aid they need. He is, in this region, a a true community organizer with no stable community to work with...

It is my considered opinion that Israel is being asked to give up way too much to gain what will not be a lasting state. Given the state of unrest in the Moslem world of that region, someone, having come to power, will start the 'Annihilate' Israel mantra, and the powder keg will ignite. Netanyahu needs to tell BHO to just step aside. obama would give the Israelis no help, and is powerless to really aid the Moslems with the material aid they need. He is, in this region, a a true community organizer with no stable community to work with...

That is classic.

That's it exactly. When there is peace... look up. It's not just going to be a "maybe" come that time. He's coming.

A false peace maybe and obama is going to make sure that it happens, what does that say about his role as a "leader".

Hey V-

What exactly are the "land swaps" they keep talking about? Does that mean like, they would keep the west bank and the Golan heights and give up other portions of their land?

Hey V-

What exactly are the "land swaps" they keep talking about? Does that mean like, they would keep the west bank and the Golan heights and give up other portions of their land?

I don't know. At this point, I don't think anyone has a firm grasp on it - that's why it's all up for negotiation.

In 1967, the boundaries were set. But - Israel (for good reason) felt living that close (and it IS close) to the West Bank and Gaza was a danger. It was in that era. Very much so. So, they occupied (i.e. military personnel and check points) those areas and set up refugee camps for the Palestinians who were dislocated from their homes in Israel.

It's 40 years later and here were are. Not only is The West Bank STILL under occupation by military personnel but they "land" the Palestinians were given in 1967? 40% of it has been "settled" by Jewish people. And there are STILL refugee camps fully occupied by displaced persons two generations after the fact. There are check points something like every half mile - in other words, to go ANYWHERE a Palestinian has to stop about every half mile to at the present their papers and many times be searched. What should be an hour trip can take upwards of three days with all the stops and "delays". The other thing that just blows my mind? There are perfectly good roads in The West Bank - but they are only to be used by Israelis. Each "country" has it's own plates and vehicles are easily identified in that way. So, while there will be Israeli vehicles traveling down a paved roadway, there is a dirt track beside it filled with Palestinian vehicles - including emergency vehicles.

Are the Palestinians "innocent"? Not by a long shot. But they are used as ploys by both the Arabs and the Jews. Jordan should just make a country for them on the east side of the Jordan. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, the US encouraged free elections. The people voted in Hamas - seriously... while I can understand WHY they did it, it was one of the dumbest things they could have done. So now, while they are "unoccupied" they have no control over their ports and sea lanes and no control over their air passage.

The whole thing is a true mess. I asked our Palestinian friend once if he hated Jews. He looked at me and laughed. he said his best friend in the whole world was a Jew. That people got along fine before the politicians got involved - they crossed from one area to another to work, to visit - no big deal. And then the politicians got involved and it all went really bad. And he blames politicians from BOTH sides - Arafat more than any Israeli.

Sorry for the long post.

This is one of the apparently contradictory things I see on this board.

I see people using Scripture to promote racial hatred towards Arabs. No, I wasn't referring to Jewish people doing so.

No, I did NOT say Israel and/or Jews have no moral right to self-defense. No, I did NOT deny that in many cases the actions of Israel and/or Jews are self-defense, pure and simple.

I could say more, but I think that no matter how carefully I worded whatever I said, someone would find some way to twist whatever I said.

I don't know. At this point, I don't think anyone has a firm grasp on it - that's why it's all up for negotiation.

In 1967, the boundaries were set. But - Israel (for good reason) felt living that close (and it IS close) to the West Bank and Gaza was a danger. It was in that era. Very much so. So, they occupied (i.e. military personnel and check points) those areas and set up refugee camps for the Palestinians who were dislocated from their homes in Israel.

It's 40 years later and here were are. Not only is The West Bank STILL under occupation by military personnel but they "land" the Palestinians were given in 1967? 40% of it has been "settled" by Jewish people. And there are STILL refugee camps fully occupied by displaced persons two generations after the fact. There are check points something like every half mile - in other words, to go ANYWHERE a Palestinian has to stop about every half mile to at the present their papers and many times be searched. What should be an hour trip can take upwards of three days with all the stops and "delays". The other thing that just blows my mind? There are perfectly good roads in The West Bank - but they are only to be used by Israelis. Each "country" has it's own plates and vehicles are easily identified in that way. So, while there will be Israeli vehicles traveling down a paved roadway, there is a dirt track beside it filled with Palestinian vehicles - including emergency vehicles.

Are the Palestinians "innocent"? Not by a long shot. But they are used as ploys by both the Arabs and the Jews. Jordan should just make a country for them on the east side of the Jordan. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, the US encouraged free elections. The people voted in Hamas - seriously... while I can understand WHY they did it, it was one of the dumbest things they could have done. So now, while they are "unoccupied" they have no control over their ports and sea lanes and no control over their air passage.

The whole thing is a true mess. I asked our Palestinian friend once if he hated Jews. He looked at me and laughed. he said his best friend in the whole world was a Jew. That people got along fine before the politicians got involved - they crossed from one area to another to work, to visit - no big deal. And then the politicians got involved and it all went really bad. And he blames politicians from BOTH sides - Arafat more than any Israeli.

Sorry for the long post.

Are you kidding? I would have liked a LONGER post!
You're right-huge mess.
Well, from what I read in scripture, it does appear a man will come and make peace possible for some number of years. Just appears to me the man will be you-know-who!

Jordan should just make a country for them on the east side of the Jordan.


That would be a good and simple solution. Problem is Muslims in the region would never go for it. Let's not kid ourselves here. The majority of muslims want the destruction of Israel and will not be satisfied until it happens. That is why they voted in hamas.

That would be a good and simple solution. Problem is Muslims in the region would never go for it. Let's not kid ourselves here. The majority of muslims want the destruction of Israel and will not be satisfied until it happens. That is why they voted in hamas.

A lot of people seem to use the terms "Arabs" and "Muslims" interchangeably. They aren't interchangeable.

A HUGE proportion of the world's Muslims aren't Arab.

Many Malays are Muslim.

Has anyone here heard anywhere near as much about Malays being hostile towards Jews and/or Israel as they have about Arabs being hostile towards Jews and/or Israel? I sure haven't.

Heard of that one before. Where in Scripture?

Genesis 16, Genesis 25


And, did not something change when the temple curtain split in two? The new covenant? The Lord commanding the 11 eleven to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole world? Why would the Ishmael principle still stand today?

I believe those who repent and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior are reborn as sons of God to be under the New Covenant, and under that, all people, Jew, Gentile, Arab, Chinese, Eskimo....you name it....all are of one race - God's children. While our flesh at times gets in the way of us (me for sure) manifesting that truth and walking in it, it is a truth never the less.

A lot of people seem to use the terms "Arabs" and "Muslims" interchangeably. They aren't interchangeable.

A HUGE proportion of the world's Muslims aren't Arab.

Many Malays are Muslim.

Has anyone here heard anywhere near as much about Malays being hostile towards Jews and/or Israel as they have about Arabs being hostile towards Jews and/or Israel? I sure haven't.

There certainly is a distinction. There is commonality in what is known as the 'strong horse' mentality that is part of Islam and prevalent in 'middle eastern' culture.

The decision to go 'all in' with a group places you into that group. Malay, or Irish... if you are a follower of Islam (or align with those who follow Islam) you are by default part of the group.

Google "malaysian muslims anti semites"... You will see that Malaysian Muslims are indeed anti Israel/Jew.

I don't know why Obama would make this demand on Israel. However, I do hope that Israel will do what it can to have peace with the Palestinians.

I just came across this article by Michael Horton.

Biblical Foreign Policy? (http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2011/05/25/biblical-foreign-policy/) (link to whitehorseinn.org)

Great article. My guess is it will meet with opposition here.

Thanks for posting it.
V

Great article. Whitehorseinn rarely disappoints.

(uh,oh! I've been marked):)

Whatever borders that God wants Israel to keep they will keep. Nothing that Obama or anyone else can do about that. We know that whatever happens, Israel will not be wiped out as a nation because they are a main player in the book of Revelation.

I don't know why Obama would make this demand on Israel. However, I do hope that Israel will do what it can to have peace with the Palestinians.

How can Israel have peace with Palestians when the majority of them support terrorism and are commited to the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.

Genesis 16, Genesis 25

I am sorry but I only read blessings for Hagar as well as Ishmael.

How can Israel have peace with Palestians when the majority of them support terrorism and are commited to the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry but I only read blessings for Hagar as well as Ishmael.

Common grace is bestowed even upon the wicked (not saying Hagar was wicked).

Nevertheless, that's not the point.

Common grace is bestowed even upon the wicked (not saying Hagar was wicked).

Nevertheless, that's not the point.

Indeed, the point was:


There will be no peace between the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Jacob. Pretending so is denying God's Word.

Indeed, the point was:

What does this have to do with "Hagar's blessing?" God said Ishmael's offspring were going to be at the sons of Jacobs' throats, and I can't water down or deny God's Word.

How can Israel have peace with Palestians when the majority of them support terrorism and are commited to the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people.

Double AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The worst part is trying to divide Jerusalem in half. God will not stand for it. Ezekiel 39 says, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it saith the Lord God."

No mincing words there, or feeling a need for diplomacy.

Shortly after, according to Ezekiel 40 through 48, a new temple is built, the likes of which we have never seen, and will be there forever. Ez. 48:35 It was round about 6 miles: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there."

That is if you believe the Bible.

Ezekiel 39:26 and 27 make it quite clear: "When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there."

I pity the fool who tries to remove them from their own land.

What does this have to do with "Hagar's blessing?" God said Ishmael's offspring were going to be at the sons of Jacobs' throats, and I can't water down or deny God's Word.

It's not what Scripture says. Furthermore to extend some family rivalry of 4000 years ago to the current Israel / Palestinian conflict is bizarre without sound Biblical support. So let's discuss Scripture. Maybe I am missing something.

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her [Hagar], I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

I don't see God curse the descendants of Ishmael. I see God blessing the Hagar -> Ishmael bloodline into a great multitude. I see Ishmael described as not a very likable person having conflicts with everybody, not limited to Jacob only, hence he moved and thus God's prophecy (a multitude) became fulfilled.

Gen 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Where does God state Ishmael is His enemy? I see only blessings.

Next verses,

Gen 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. 24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. 26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son. 27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Ishmael circumcised?

That means Ishmael was part of the covenant God made with Abraham, same chapter, verse 10-11,

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Nowadays enemies of Israel are not the descendants of Ishmael but Islam.

...
Nowadays enemies of Israel are not the descendants of Ishmael but Islam.

I agree. The problem as I see it is that the religion of islam was set up by satan to directly conflict with that of the one true God. Most decendants of Ishmael are not against Israel because they are decendants of Ishmael, but rather because they are a part of the muslim religious system.

It's not what Scripture says. Furthermore to extend some family rivalry of 4000 years ago to the current Israel / Palestinian conflict is bizarre without sound Biblical support. So let's discuss Scripture. Maybe I am missing something.




It's not what Scripture says......

I disagree with your interpretation. And this is more than just a phyical warfare issue, it is also a spiritual warfare issue. First of all, I am not speaking of blessings and curses, so that argument is a distraction. Lots of folks are blessed, even today that doesn't mean they are friends of God. Heck, the Saudi princes have immense blessings; but that is not the point. The point is conflict. It is not rooted in Islaam. Islaam is merely the latest manifestation.

The conflict was prophecied by God in Genesis 16, Ishmael's increase was prohecied in 17:20, but the covenant was with Isaac. The confilct was born in Genesis 21:9 "Now Sarah saw the sone of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking."

Paul teaches in Galatians that Ishmael was "born according to the flesh" and Isaac was born "according to the promise." Isaac, not Ishmael was the favored son and the heir. Of course it made Ishmael bitter and jealous, and so he mocked Isaac, eventually the situation became so intolerable that Hagar and Ishmael wound up expelled from Abraham's family.

But, as you say, God did have mercy on the Egyptian concubine and her son. This is the mercy of our God. God provides opportunities for redemption for situations caused by disobedience and / or lack of faith (in this case Abraham's decision to impregnate Hagar). To be fair to Ishmael, God promised Hagar that Ishmael would have 12 princes who would become a great nation. Ishmael's prodigy went on to become Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians, Assyrians. Yes, God provided him with a great kingdom of his own, but apparently it wasn't enough as history reveals. Ishmael's descendants have always been envious of the full inheritance promised to Isaac.

This jealousy and hate have created wars and atrocities for 4000 years. It was the title deed to the land of Israel, which God promised to Abraham's lineage that has been the true source of the tension between Jews and Arabs to this day.

Islaam may have intensified the struggle, but is not the souce. Islaamic tradition teaches that the Jews altered the Bible to establish themselves as the heirs of the covenant blessings. But that argument falls short of explaining Paul's statement in Galatians.

For believers, there should be no question that Israel is the promised land for the Jews - ALL of it.

I agree. The problem as I see it is that the religion of islam was set up by satan to directly conflict with that of the one true God. Most decendants of Ishmael are not against Israel because they are decendants of Ishmael, but rather because they are a part of the muslim religious system.

Daniel 11:45 says, "And he (the anti-Christ) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."

The Holy Mountain in the Bible is, of course, the temple mount, where Isaac was brought to be sacrificed and God provided a substitute. It is also where Mohammid planted the Dome of the Rock.

Daniel 11:36 says, "And the king shall exalt himself above every god, speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."
This is very much like Daniel 9:27 which says in the NIV "And on a wing of the temple (at the edge) he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Islam has situated itself on the Holy mountain and it will remain there until the end, when that which has been determined will be poured out.

In the meantime Daniel 11:37 says, "Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor women, nor any god, he shall magnify himself."

This puts all the blame on the institution of Islam, or Allah, who thinks he is "greatest", and reminds us that this king, claiming to be God, was not regarded as anything by the fathers before Mohammid conquered them at Medina and Mecca. He and his army took it over the same way they always do it -- by the sword. Allah is not the God of their fathers as their sons have been led to believe. Allah is a relatively new invention.

Daniel 11:37 NIV puts it this way, "He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unkown to his fathers he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price."

Ishmael circumcised?

That means Ishmael was part of the covenant God made with Abraham, same chapter, verse 10-11,



Not correct.

And Paul teaches otherwise:

For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[ Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

this thread has me pondering a few different aspects

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.


to me this speaks of a warlike/fighting people and it carries into his bloodline.

like Isaac, are children of promise.

now isaac is the children of promise and salvation is open to all. God is not willing that any should perish. to me that says Anyone can have Christ come to them.

now i think the people of ishmeals (flesh) blood line are still alive today and have many kingdoms i believe its possible that out of those (flesh) who do not turn to christ he could use that bloodline to fullfill prophecy.

he can hearden or soften anyones heart

On a lighter note, I got this in my email..


Who Does The Land of Israel Belong To?

An Israeli Sense of Humor at UN set the record straight.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the
United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want
to tell you something about Moses: When he struck the rock and it
brought forth water, he thought, "What a good opportunity to have a
bath!"
Moses removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the
water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished.
A Palestinian had stolen them!

The Palestinian representative at the UN jumped up furiously and
shouted, "What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there
then."
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made
that clear, I will begin my speech...'

Ah... the Columbo tactic.

Good one!