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Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 03:34 PM
In another thread, someone had some questions about why the church of Christ does not use musical instruments in worship. I'm starting this thread to discuss this issue, but please, let us discuss it fairly, and not use it as an opportunity to attack as I try to explain this topic.


I would be happy to study it with you, Matt, because honestly, the whole "no music is church" thing baffles me.

And to answer your questions, I have to ask one of my own....what does music in worship have to do with the Old and New Covenants?

Do you not study the Psalms? Are they not valid to you because David was under a different covenant?

WG, you and I have always had a respectful relationship here on the board, so I look forward to discussing this with you! I'll start in the next post.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 03:47 PM
I would be happy to study it with you, Matt, because honestly, the whole "no music is church" thing baffles me.

Yeah, I guess it can be confusing. I was a member of the Methodist church for many years, and it was difficult to grasp the musical instrument issue, coming from that background. But after studying Biblical authority for quite a while, I came to this understanding.

Did you know that most of the reformers were against musical instruments in the worship? Wesley, Luther, nearly et al. rejected the instrument in worship as unscriptural.


And to answer your questions, I have to ask one of my own....what does music in worship have to do with the Old and New Covenants?

When the New Covenant was brought in at Christ's death and resurrection, we were no longer bound to the Law. Under the Law, there were lots of things about worship that were considered types and shadows of the true worship in Spirit and truth that would come. Just as there is no physical altar and temple, there are no physical instruments for today's worship. There is no command in the NT to use instruments. We can look at all this in depth as we go.


Do you not study the Psalms? Are they not valid to you because David was under a different covenant?

Of course I study them. In Romans 15:4 Paul said the things that were written aforetime were written for our learning. This includes the Psalms. But the Psalms do not represent commands for our worship.

uric3
Sep 6th 2006, 03:55 PM
I stated this in the last thread and this helps explain it somewhat as well.

Well in short no where in the NT is is practiced we learn in the Bible via three means, Command, Example, or Necessary Inference.

Command is basic we are commanded to love one another John 13:34

Example would be Acts 8:37 we see a great example of a confession of Faith that is described in Romans 10:9-10 we see the eunuch give that so its a good example of how it could its done.

Necessary Inference would be for example Matt 8:14 "When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever." No where in scripture does it state that Peter is married of my knowledge yet here we know he is because its infered because how else would he have a mother in law? So there for you can infer that he's married.

No where in the NT do we find an example a command or it to be infered that instruments where used in worship. We see from Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 we are to sing thats what we are commanded to do and that only.

Why should we not play them because its not authorized and we see we can't take things from the OT because if we do we will be a debtor to do it all Gal 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." If you read this in context with the book what was going on was there was men who tried to bring over things from the Old Law such as circumcised to be saved etc... they were told this was done away with passages that support that is Col 2:13-17; 2nd Cor 3:7-11; etc...

They were a shadow of things to come but they were done away with, and we see in Rom 15:14 let us know that the OT is used for our learning we can learn from it and see the propcheys of Christ etc... but we aren't to keep the Sabbath Day, be circumcised for salvation, offer bulls and goats, etc... etc... so in the OT we see instruments used for worship and it was commanded just like circumcism was, etc...

However since its not ask of us in the NT we shouldn't do it because didn't ask for it or authorize it... and we see what happens to those who think they are worshipping God and doing things with out Authority in Matt 7:21-23

Some think its ok but since its not ask of us in the NT and we see no example command or nothing even in this history of the church it being done until about 800 or 900AD then it shouldn't be done... if you read early church fathers etc... which are letters back and forth from the churches during the 1st Century you just don't see it... so I just stick to what God ask me so there is no question as to whether or not I am pleasing to him. However if its in your car home, etc I see no issue with it just not during worship when the church is gathered together... Also if you notice singing is something everyone can do and is ask to do in Eph 5:19, Col 3:16 we teach one another etc...

Benaiah
Sep 6th 2006, 04:33 PM
When the New Covenant was brought in at Christ's death and resurrection, we were no longer bound to the Law. Under the Law, there were lots of things about worship that were considered types and shadows of the true worship in Spirit and truth that would come. Just as there is no physical altar and temple, there are no physical instruments for today's worship. There is no command in the NT to use instruments. We can look at all this in depth as we go.


The entire OT was not the law, the law is the five books of moses. So the psalms had nothing to do with the law. So is it just the instructions on what mucical insturments to use in them that you hold to be unispired or do you consider other parts of them uninspired?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

The NT didnt exist when this was written, and even if it had. the scripture plainly states ALL scripture.

So, your position that the OT has no relevance to the NT believer is in error.

There is no command in the NT that PROHIBITS insturments. YOur approach is that you must have a scripture that authorizes them. this is just blatant legalisim at it's worst. The New covenant is the law of liberty. If I have liberty then I am free to do whatever the covenant or my conscience does not forbid.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 04:41 PM
The entire OT was not the law, the law is the five books of moses. So the psalms had nothing to do with the law. So is it just the instructions on what mucical insturments to use in them that you hold to be unispired or do you consider other parts of them uninspired?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

The NT didnt exist when this was written, and even if it had. the scripture plainly states ALL scripture.

So, your position that the OT has no relevance to the NT believer is in error.

There is no command in the NT that PROHIBITS insturments. YOur approach is that you must have a scripture that authorizes them. this is just blatant legalisim at it's worst. The New covenant is the law of liberty. If I have liberty then I am free to do whatever the covenant or my conscience does not forbid.


Please don't fly off the handle with accusations before you understand the view. :)

I did not say the Psalms were "uninspired." David and the other psalmists wrote under the Law. What they practiced and understood was according to the Law. Does this make sense?

As far as what God accepts as worship, YES, I believe we must have a New Testament command to practice it.

In Eph. 5:19, we are told to speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. In Col. 3:16, we are told to teach and admonish one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

Can an instrument speak?

Can it teach?

Can it admonish?

If it can't do these things, then Paul is not talking about instruments, but the voice.

uric3
Sep 6th 2006, 04:57 PM
The entire OT was not the law, the law is the five books of moses. So the psalms had nothing to do with the law. So is it just the instructions on what mucical insturments to use in them that you hold to be unispired or do you consider other parts of them uninspired?

I just wanted to bring out a quick point about only the books of Moses being the LAW if you would please read John 10:34 It states "Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?" Notice Christ notes this as being the LAW so where does this come from? If you look it up it comes from Psalms 82:6 "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High." So Psalms was part of the Law. Just wanted to point that out.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:02 PM
Matt are you just talking about muscial instruments or singing also? Like is singing ok with no muscial instruments or is singing considered wrong too by your views? :confused

Each person or rather church is free to do what they feel is right...since I know God gave us music through instruments in the OT and we aren't instructed in the NT to not use them I think its up to the individual churches to decide what is ok on this or not ok. I see musical instruments as simply adding to the praise and worship of God and done in that frame of mind is not an offense to God. I think Romans 14 covers this well...if for one person it feels really wrong to them we shouldn't encourage them to voilate their consious because it would cause them to sin against God...its between them and the Lord as to what is right or not as Paul says...he uses food and other things as an example of this. I know some churches don't think musical instruments are ok and that is up to them as a church...I respect their right on that. So I guess I don't know what the debate on this subject would be actually...

God bless

uric3
Sep 6th 2006, 05:06 PM
Matt are you just talking about muscial instruments or singing also? Like is singing ok with no muscial instruments or is singing considered wrong too by your views? :confused

Each person or rather church is free to do what they feel is right...since I know God gave us music through instruments in the OT and we aren't instructed in the NT to not use them I think its up to the individual churches to decide what is ok on this or not ok. I see musical instruments as simply adding to the praise and worship of God and done in that frame of mind is not an offense to God. I think Romans 14 covers this well...if for one person it feels really wrong to them we shouldn't encourage them to voilate their consious because it would cause them to sin against God...its between them and the Lord as to what is right or not as Paul says...he uses food and other things as an example of this. I know some churches don't think musical instruments are ok and that is up to them as a church...I respect their right on that. So I guess I don't know what the debate on this subject would be actually...

God bless

I'm not Matt but in short the topic is saying singing is fine and is commanded Col 3:16, Eph 5:19 the topic here is saying that in worship it should be singing only without insterments.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:06 PM
I just wanted to bring out a quick point about only the books of Moses being the LAW if you would please read John 10:34 It states "Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?" Notice Christ notes this as being the LAW so where does this come from? If you look it up it comes from Psalms 82:6 "I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High." So Psalms was part of the Law. Just wanted to point that out.

Uh? No its not and those scriptures have totally nothing to do with the laws anyway...you are really bending over backwards to make that fit...

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 05:06 PM
Matt are you just talking about muscial instruments or singing also? Like is singing ok with no muscial instruments or is singing considered wrong too by your views? :confused

Hi MG! :)

Just talking about instrumental music. Vocal music is authorized by the NT, Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:08 PM
Hi MG! :)

Just talking about instrumental music. Vocal music is authorized by the NT, Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16.

Ok thanks...

uh...says my message is too short...:rolleyes: la de da la de da...(just singing to myself hear to make the message long enough...)

Benaiah
Sep 6th 2006, 05:08 PM
I did not say the Psalms were "uninspired." David and the other psalmists wrote under the Law. What they practiced and understood was according to the Law. Does this make sense?

Actually it makes no sense to me, Perhaps you can point out where the insturments david had used were a requirrement of the law. I know the OT quite well and the only mention or command to use any insurment in the law dealt with the sounding of trumpets at particular times.

Psa 33:2 Praise the LORD with the harp; Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.

Psa 150:3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Psa 150:4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Psa 150:5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
Psa 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD!

with the exception of the trumpet NONE of the above insturments were "authorized" or employed according to the law.


As far as what God accepts as worship, YES, I believe we must have a New Testament command to practice it.

hmmm ...Yet David a man that God hiimself testified was a man after his own heart, Didnt think he needed a command to use insturments to worship God with. or that he could only use the insurments that were "authorized" by the law. David had no command to dance in his undergarments before the Lord either. But his wife who despised his behavior fell under God's judgement.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 05:16 PM
Actually it makes no sense to me, Perhaps you can point out where the insturments david had used were a requirrement of the law. I know the OT quite well and the only mention or command to use any insurment in the law dealt with the sounding of trumpets at particular times.

Psa 33:2 Praise the LORD with the harp; Make melody to Him with an instrument of ten strings.

Psa 150:3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet; Praise Him with the lute and harp!
Psa 150:4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
Psa 150:5 Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
Psa 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD!

with the exception of the trumpet NONE of the above insturments were "authorized" or employed according to the law.


Seems you may be on to something. There was no specific command in the OT to use instruments in worship? But yet they were used at times. We have examples. So do you agree that an example can be binding?

What NT examples of the use of the instrument in worship do you see?


hmmm ...Yet David a man that God hiimself testified was a man after his own heart, Didnt think he needed a command to use insturments to worship God with. or that he could only use the insurments that were "authorized" by the law. David had no command to dance in his undergarments before the Lord either. But his wife who despised his behavior fell under God's judgement.

Since David was also an adulterer, is it not reasonable to assume that being "a man after God's own heart" has nothing to do with the use of mechanical instruments of music in either the Old or New Testaments?

We have examples of the use of the instrument in the OT. Most are outside of the worship. There are few in worship settings.

We have zero examples of the use of the instrument in NT worship.

Which example will we allow to be binding? Why is one example binding (the OT one) and not the NT one?

Thanks, and God bless!

uric3
Sep 6th 2006, 05:20 PM
Uh? No its not and those scriptures have totally nothing to do with the laws anyway...you are really bending over backwards to make that fit...

Just wondering how so, Jesus notes it as being part of the Law not saying Pslams had though shalts in it but Jesus himself noted it was a part of the Jewish Law. When he stated that he quoted from Psalms... how does that not show Pslams was not part of the Law? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 05:29 PM
Just wondering how so, Jesus notes it as being part of the Law not saying Pslams had though shalts in it but Jesus himself noted it was a part of the Jewish Law. When he stated that he quoted from Psalms... how does that not show Pslams was not part of the Law? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

He also makes a distinction here:

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So, its not quite cut and dry.

The Law is usually regarded as that contained in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deut that are specific instructions to Israel on behaviour, diet, feasts, etc. not the texts written by the prophets or the psalms, though these were written by men operating under the Law.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:29 PM
Just wondering how so, Jesus notes it as being part of the Law not saying Pslams had though shalts in it but Jesus himself noted it was a part of the Jewish Law. When he stated that he quoted from Psalms... how does that not show Pslams was not part of the Law? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Well you are going to have to post the scriptures you are refering to here cause I have have no idea what you are talking about...sorry.

At any rate we are no longer under the law...through Jesus all the laws were fulfilled...we have freedoms now we couldn't have had under the laws...for instance we can eat whatever we want to now (as long as it doesn't cause someone to stumble of course) because we aren't having to try to work our way to Heaven under the old laws in the OT. The few laws carried over from the OT the writers of the NT make clear...

So we don't HAVE to have music in church...we can choose not too...or choose to have music in church...isn't that great! I think its great...I like music...:D

God bless

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 05:29 PM
Since David was also an adulterer, is it not reasonable to assume that being "a man after God's own heart" has nothing to do with the use of mechanical instruments of music in either the Old or New Testaments?

YES!!!!!!!

You are exactly right!

David was a man after God's own heart because he had a heart that loved the Lord with all that he was, he always gave God the glory, always trusted God, and always exuded a tender passion for God until the day he died!

Worship isn't about musical instruments or the sound that emits from our mouths....it is about the SINGING AND REJOICING OF OUR HEARTS.

By focusing on the music/lack of music in worship, I think people are missing the point. It's what is in our hearts that matters to God, not the means we use to do express it.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:32 PM
He also makes a distinction here:

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So, its not quite cut and dry.

The Law is usually regarded as that contained in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deut that are specific instructions to Israel on behaviour, diet, feasts, etc. not the texts written by the prophets or the psalms, though these were written by men operating under the Law.

That is speaking about the propheties of Jesus coming though...His life, His reason for being here and His death. Wouldn't you agree?

God bless

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 05:34 PM
YES!!!!!!!

You are exactly right!

David was a man after God's own heart because he had a heart that loved the Lord with all that he was, he always gave God the glory, always trusted God, and always exuded a tender passion for God until the day he died!

Worship isn't about musical instruments or the sound that emits from our mouths....it is about the SINGING AND REJOICING OF OUR HEARTS.

By focusing on the music/lack of music in worship, I think people are missing the point. It's what is in our hearts that matters to God, not the means we use to do express it.
But the point you are missing is that David committing adultery was not in line with being "a man after God's own heart."

What I was trying to point out is that David's status as a "man after God's own heart" does not mean he didn't commit sin. But more importantly, using instruments in the OT times was sometimes a part of worship, so in THAT COVENANT David was not sinning. But his status has no bearing on whether the New Testament Christian should use the instrument.

Do you follow?

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 05:34 PM
That is speaking about the propheties of Jesus coming though...His life, His reason for being here and His death. Wouldn't you agree?

God bless

Yes.

Uric3 is taking the stance that the Psalms are part of the Law because of Christ's statement here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944149&postcount=6

I am taking the stance that it is not quite that cut and dry by Christ's statement here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944202&postcount=15

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 05:36 PM
Yes.

Uric3 is taking the stance that the Psalms are part of the Law because of Christ's statement here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944149&postcount=6

I am taking the stance that it is not quite that cut and dry by Christ's statement here:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944202&postcount=15
I'm taking the stance that it does not matter whether the Psalms are considered "the law," because David and the other Psalmist wrote while under the Law of Moses, and what they wrote was what was practiced.

Does this make sense? I don't think the idea of whether the Psalms are part of the Law or not have any bearing on the question at hand.

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 05:37 PM
I'm going to throw in my 2 cents. :D

Psa 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

"All thy works" are His creation. Musical instruments are not His creation, but mans.

We speak these words in worship. "All creation shall praise you unto ages of ages, Amen".

Musical instruments can't praise God, their not alive. And their not part of His creation. They are part of mans creation.


To the posters grasping at OT scripture on this subject. There is none that state the whole congregation was playing musical instruments in worship. ie. corporate worship/unified

And I don't see where one who is filled with joy in praise is in a unified worship with others. It is their joy, and might not be others. Joy doesn't necessarily equate to worship.

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 05:42 PM
I'm taking the stance that it does not matter whether the Psalms are considered "the law," because David and the other Psalmist wrote while under the Law of Moses, and what they wrote was what was practiced.

Does this make sense? I don't think the idea of whether the Psalms are part of the Law or not have any bearing on the question at hand.

I agree that it has nothing to do with your position Matt and didn't mean to derail, just wanted to address what I saw as something being presented as fact that I don't see as cut and dry as presented (not by you but Uric3).

Let me ask you this Matt regarding your statement above and earlier:

Do you believe that the New Covenant/Gospel existed before the Old Covenant/Law (not in full effect but established, understandable to an extent and promised)?

Do you believe that David, Abraham, etc. had any understanding whatsoever of the New Covenant?

Were these saints justified before God because of Law or because of their faith in the Messiah of the New Covenant?

If David had an understanding of the New Covenant, and was justified because of it, and the psalms speak of Christ and not just Law then the commands in the psalms to use musical instruments in worshipping Christ might have value in the New Covenant.

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 05:43 PM
Apparently there are musical instuments in Heaven:

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God 3 And they were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb:


"Great and marvelous are your actions,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations.

4
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed."

At least we know in Heaven they sing using musical instuments.

God bless

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 05:46 PM
But the point you are missing is that David committing adultery was not in line with being "a man after God's own heart."

What I was trying to point out is that David's status as a "man after God's own heart" does not mean he didn't commit sin. But more importantly, using instruments in the OT times was sometimes a part of worship, so in THAT COVENANT David was not sinning. But his status has no bearing on whether the New Testament Christian should use the instrument.

Do you follow?

I follow Matt, but honestly, this idea that the whole of the OT is null and void for us doesn't fly with me.


And if you are going to go strictly by the NT, do you:

Drink wine? (1 Timothy 5:23)

Greet each other with a holy kiss? (2 Corinthians 13:12)

Lift your hands in praise during worship? (1 Timothy 2:8)

Speak in tongues? (1 Corinthians 14:5)

Benaiah
Sep 6th 2006, 05:53 PM
Just wondering how so, Jesus notes it as being part of the Law not saying Pslams had though shalts in it but Jesus himself noted it was a part of the Jewish Law. When he stated that he quoted from Psalms... how does that not show Pslams was not part of the Law? Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Let me clarify something here, my comments about the five books of moses being the law is in connection with YOU and matt connecting the law with the covenant. the LAW which pertains to the covenant is the five books of moses. God states this several times in the OT that the statues, commandments, and the covenat they were to obey were given by moses. The NT states this as well both John and paul say this.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."

Jesus more genral use of the term law does not change that fact, and as you pointed out, even what is quooted bears no relationship to the law as far as what one is commanded to do or not do.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 05:59 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 06:00 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

See ya then Matt.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 06:01 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

God bless, Matt. I pray the residents are enriched by your visit and that any who don't know the Lord will open their hearts to Him. :)

Benaiah
Sep 6th 2006, 06:11 PM
Seems you may be on to something. There was no specific command in the OT to use instruments in worship? But yet they were used at times. We have examples. So do you agree that an example can be binding?


NO, I dont think it is "Binding" at all.


Since David was also an adulterer, is it not reasonable to assume that being "a man after God's own heart" has nothing to do with the use of mechanical instruments of music in either the Old or New Testaments?

Then you are saying that the psalms are NOT inspired. If they are inspired then obviously God has no objection to insurments being used in worship.
As far as David's adultery what does that have to do with his inspoired writings? or his actions in worship? as far as I recall david never wrote, "praise God, commit adultery all you people!"

Given that That the NT says ; 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Why is the inspired writing of david concerning worship rejected? Paul does not forbid anything that david wrote concerning the use of insturments in worship.

slightlypuzzled
Sep 6th 2006, 06:12 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

Amen. May the Lord richly bless you and your work there.

Benaiah
Sep 6th 2006, 06:14 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

God bless matt, and thanks for the lively discussion. I look forward to disagreeing with you more when you get back.:D

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 06:20 PM
I follow Matt, but honestly, this idea that the whole of the OT is null and void for us doesn't fly with me.


And if you are going to go strictly by the NT, do you:

Drink wine? (1 Timothy 5:23)

Greet each other with a holy kiss? (2 Corinthians 13:12)

Lift your hands in praise during worship? (1 Timothy 2:8)

Speak in tongues? (1 Corinthians 14:5)

I don't see why the wisdom of the OT would be null and void. But the OT isn't a law for us to follow. Traditions can be passed on, but which ones and who decides. (hopefully the church as a whole, inspired by the Spirit)

And to answer all your questions, on my part, yes. (tho my tongue is one of worship and not unknown):D

slightlypuzzled
Sep 6th 2006, 06:23 PM
And to answer all your questions, on my part, yes. (tho my tongue is one of worship and not unknown)

So, is your tongue well known, or just well know during worship? ......:lol:

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 06:29 PM
Apparently there are musical instuments in Heaven:

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God 3 And they were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb:


"Great and marvelous are your actions,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations.

4
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed."

At least we know in Heaven they sing using musical instuments.

God bless



Moonglow, your a good researcher. Are you sure this is musical instruments? (its actually in the singular ie. harp Gr. kathara)

See 1 Corinthians 14:7 and tell me how a thing without life is in heaven.

Revelation is metaphorical. And just guessing from that, I'd say its a melody that all are singing to or with in connection with God. Just MHO tho. :saint:

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 06:34 PM
So, is your tongue well known, or just well know during worship? ......:lol:


I felt the need to clarify.....you know how this stuff goes running off by itself sometimes. :bounce:

But my tongue is pretty well known :lol: , call me Teke blabbit. :D
what can I say, here I am blabbing on a message board.:P
(seriously tho, I am a reader and singer in church worship)

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 06:36 PM
Guys and gals, I've got to go minister at the nursing home. I'll answer any post directed my way when I return. God bless you all!

May the riches of His mercy be with you. :pray:

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 07:46 PM
I agree that it has nothing to do with your position Matt and didn't mean to derail, just wanted to address what I saw as something being presented as fact that I don't see as cut and dry as presented (not by you but Uric3).

No, I know you weren't trying to derail anything. I appreciate your post. :)


Let me ask you this Matt regarding your statement above and earlier:

You know me, questions always welcome.


Do you believe that the New Covenant/Gospel existed before the Old Covenant/Law (not in full effect but established, understandable to an extent and promised)?

Yes, I believe the New Covenant was in "existence," ie in God's plan from the foundation of the world. But I do not believe it was in effect until Christ's death.


Do you believe that David, Abraham, etc. had any understanding whatsoever of the New Covenant?

Not in a full way, no. They had an obediant faith in God's coming Messiah, but they did not know the fullness of that plan.


Were these saints justified before God because of Law or because of their faith in the Messiah of the New Covenant?

Abraham was justified by an obediant faith. I can assume the same about David.


If David had an understanding of the New Covenant, and was justified because of it, and the psalms speak of Christ and not just Law then the commands in the psalms to use musical instruments in worshipping Christ might have value in the New Covenant.

I don't believe David had a full understanding of the New Testament church. I don't see where the was revealed to him. Also, since David lived under the Law of Moses, what he wrote and did were what was allowable under the Old Covenant. Not sure I can say any more about that, but if you have more questions, fire away. I'll do my best. :)

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 07:50 PM
Moonglow, your a good researcher. Are you sure this is musical instruments? (its actually in the singular ie. harp Gr. kathara)

See 1 Corinthians 14:7 and tell me how a thing without life is in heaven.

Revelation is metaphorical. And just guessing from that, I'd say its a melody that all are singing to or with in connection with God. Just MHO tho. :saint:

How would it be metaphorical?

Main Entry: met·a·phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English methaphor, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- + pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language

How can a harp be metaphor? :confused

If the harp is not real then that would suggest them singing to God in praises wasn't real either...:eek:

At any rate, apparently Paul wasn't without experience with musical instruments in church...you use this same passage to say a 'thing without life' cannot be in Heave...I say..why not? :

1 Corinthians 14:6-8

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

In content here, Paul is speaking about the use of spiritual gifts IN church and instructing them on their use...which can be read in full on here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014%20;&version=51;

God bless

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 07:51 PM
Apparently there are musical instuments in Heaven:

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God 3 And they were singing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb:


"Great and marvelous are your actions,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations.

4
Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come and worship before you,
for your righteous deeds have been revealed."

At least we know in Heaven they sing using musical instuments.

God bless


There are lots of images in Revelation that may or may not be literal. But, as you pointed out, what is happening in heaven in relation to worship is not necessarily commanded on earth.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 07:56 PM
I follow Matt, but honestly, this idea that the whole of the OT is null and void for us doesn't fly with me.

I didn't say the "whole of the OT is null and void." But the Christian is under the law of Christ, bound by a new covenant, and the Old Testament does not tell us how to worship.


And if you are going to go strictly by the NT, do you:

Drink wine? (1 Timothy 5:23)

I don't, personally. But that's not because drinking alcohol is inherently sinful.


Greet each other with a holy kiss? (2 Corinthians 13:12)

No, but I shake hands, which is the same in our culture.


Lift your hands in praise during worship? (1 Timothy 2:8)

I do not, but it would take another thread to explain. Maybe tomorrow. :lol:


Speak in tongues? (1 Corinthians 14:5)

That is a gift that has passed away, 1 Cor. 13.

More in a little bit, gotta go pick up the kids.

God bless!

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 07:58 PM
There are lots of images in Revelation that may or may not be literal. But, as you pointed out, what is happening in heaven in relation to worship is not necessarily commanded on earth.

Well, it does show us that God doesn't have a problem with instruments used in worship. ;)

moonglow
Sep 6th 2006, 08:04 PM
There are lots of images in Revelation that may or may not be literal. But, as you pointed out, what is happening in heaven in relation to worship is not necessarily commanded on earth.

Actually I said no such thing.

neither is it condemned using musical instruments.

It really seems odd to me that because the NT doesn't clearly state...worship in musical Instruments or not too, that anyone would assume we were no longer suppose too. All through the OT God tells people to worship Him with musical Instruments...He gave us the ablitily to make them in the first place so why take that away? I can see stopping many other things in the OT that were under the law, but stopping a part of the way we worshipped God...? That just makes no sense at all. Worshipping Him in this way never hurt anyone.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 08:10 PM
I didn't say the "whole of the OT is null and void." But the Christian is under the law of Christ, bound by a new covenant, and the Old Testament does not tell us how to worship.

I still don't understand what this has to do with musical instruments in worship. Yes, we are under a new covenant, but why does that covenant extend to musical instruments in worship?

If instruments aren't mentioned in the NT, I don't see how that makes it prohibited, especially since they worshiped with instruments in the OT.

If instruments were so bad, wouldn't Paul or someone make a point of telling us so?


I don't, personally. But that's not because drinking alcohol is inherently sinful.

So why is drinking alcohol taboo (for lack of a better word!) in the CoC?


No, but I shake hands, which is the same in our culture.

But....it doesn't say to give a holy handshake. It says to give a holy kiss.

And if you are going to go by cultural relevance, then perhaps for our culture, instruments during worship is acceptable.



I do not, but it would take another thread to explain. Maybe tomorrow. :lol:

I can't wait to hear this one. :lol:



That is a gift that has passed away, 1 Cor. 13.

Surely you know many would disagree with that. ;)


More in a little bit, gotta go pick up the kids.

Don't you have a wife to do those things? :rolleyes:

Ha ha....just kidding. Don't you all stone me at once! :o

GodspromisesareYES
Sep 6th 2006, 08:33 PM
:spin: well this is an interesting thing for me i went to a no chorus no instrument church for a little bit so i ended up studying this and this is what i found. most no instrument churches site two things as their reason ( from what i have seen, not saying there isnt more) they say 1) only the levites that were picked for musicians got to play music for the Lord and for anyone else to was against the law and we are not levites and 2) paul said to come together with psalms and spiritual songs and does not mention instruments. What i find is that in the NT we are not under the law but we walk at liberty and are to walk and worship in Spirit and truth and faith. There is no command given that we must or must not use instruments in our worship. When we look at the OT we see that levites were to be the ones playing the instruments however David was of judah and David played for the Lord and even danced naked before Him which certianly was not of the law- however David was a man of faith and was treated as such by the Lord and was not treated as one under the law because rightousness has always been by faith and that is the kind of rightousness David had and not the kind by the law. We also see that now in Christ WE are kings and priests! levites are no longer the priests but we are. Whatever we do that is in faith and love is not against any law and if we play to the Lord or sing to the Lord individually or together that is what is important and not mens traditions and laws of the OT that we in faith of Jesus are not under. HOWEVER just like all things, if someone is convicted in conscious against instruments to THEM it is a sin and they should not be a part of it.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 08:35 PM
By the way, does the no instruments thing only apply to church? Because, ya know, I don't drive a car. I drive a worship-mobile. :D

There's nothing quite like driving down the road, singing along with my CD's, with one hand on the wheel and one hand in the air, basking in the love and joy of my Lord. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v250/Elle232002/th_love.gif

And the weird looks from people in the cars next to me don't even bother me anymore. :hmm:


And if it only applies to church, why?

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 08:42 PM
By the way, does the no instruments thing only apply to church? Because, ya know, I don't drive a car. I drive a worship-mobile. :D

There's nothing quite like driving down the road, singing along with my CD's, with one hand on the wheel and one hand in the air, basking in the love and joy of my Lord. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v250/Elle232002/th_love.gif

And the weird looks from people in the cars next to me don't even bother me anymore. :hmm:


And if it only applies to church, why?

WG,

You will find that Matt has a music degree in classical piano and is quite the musician (though he wouldn't boast of his abilities).

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=469415&postcount=16

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 08:48 PM
How would it be metaphorical?

Main Entry: met·a·phor
Pronunciation: 'me-t&-"for also -f&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English methaphor, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French metaphore, from Latin metaphora, from Greek, from metapherein to transfer, from meta- + pherein to bear -- more at BEAR
1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money); broadly : figurative language

How can a harp be metaphor? :confused

If the harp is not real then that would suggest them singing to God in praises wasn't real either...:eek:

At any rate, apparently Paul wasn't without experience with musical instruments in church...you use this same passage to say a 'thing without life' cannot be in Heave...I say..why not? :

1 Corinthians 14:6-8

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

In content here, Paul is speaking about the use of spiritual gifts IN church and instructing them on their use...which can be read in full on here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014%20;&version=51;

God bless



We are talking heaven here. And since I haven't been there, I can't be sure. But what is a harp used for, to make melody. So how do those in heaven know what, or I should say the melody of the song without some type of lead.

The Greek word for harp there is of an unknown affinity, which usually means they're not sure what it means. My speculation would be "melody". Or maybe like sheet music.

If you ever take choir practice, with no instruments, to get the right note you have to have sheet music or a tone to follow.

So the metaphorical aspect would be toward that. And the easiest way to explain that in words would be to use an instrument which makes a melody.

I can understand it that way because we do not use instruments in worship.

For instance when we sing our alleulia verses, the reader anounces the tone/chord they are to be sung in. And since it varies, it could be considered as an instrument with chords played. But the instruments are our mouths singing in that chord, not a man made instrument.

I may be confusing you, but you brought up Revelation.:P

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 08:50 PM
Well, it does show us that God doesn't have a problem with instruments used in worship. ;)

If you want to take an apocolyptic writing style and say a harp is definitely not a symbol and commands a certain kind of worship on earth, then be my guest. But I don't think you would personally take that as solid evidence, would you?

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 08:51 PM
WG,

You will find that Matt has a music degree in classical piano and is quite the musician (though he wouldn't boast of his abilities).

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=469415&postcount=16

Ah.....wow. Okay.

So does he never use his musical abilities in worship....even at home? Because, in my ever so humble (and often inconsequential) opinion, it would be sad to offer such a beautiful gift to others yet never to the Lord. Shouldn't He always come first?

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 08:54 PM
If you want to take an apocolyptic writing style and say a harp is definitely not a symbol and commands a certain kind of worship on earth, then be my guest. But I don't think you would personally take that as solid evidence, would you?

I think it shows us God has no problem with instruments in worship and that we shouldn't get legalistic about it one way or the other. ;)

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:03 PM
Actually I said no such thing.

neither is it condemned using musical instruments.

It really seems odd to me that because the NT doesn't clearly state...worship in musical Instruments or not too, that anyone would assume we were no longer suppose too. All through the OT God tells people to worship Him with musical Instruments...He gave us the ablitily to make them in the first place so why take that away? I can see stopping many other things in the OT that were under the law, but stopping a part of the way we worshipped God...? That just makes no sense at all. Worshipping Him in this way never hurt anyone.

When God commanded that priests under the Old Testament law come only from the tribe of Levi, did He also have to say "no priests from the tribe of Judah, Dan, etc., etc.?" No, we understand that what is not stated is just as important.

When God commands singing in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, that excludes other types of music, such as instruments.

Now, we can go ahead and add instruments, but we do so at the risk of adding to God's word.

Jesus said the true worshippers would worship in Spirit and truth, John 4:24. We know what Spirit is, and we know what "word" is, because Jesus said God's word is truth, John 17:17. If we worship Him outside the spirit and outside of truth (His word) then we are not worshipping properly. To worship in ways not prescribed in the word is to worship outside God's word, and thus outside of truth.

Toolman
Sep 6th 2006, 09:04 PM
By the way, does the no instruments thing only apply to church? Because, ya know, I don't drive a car. I drive a worship-mobile. :D

There's nothing quite like driving down the road, singing along with my CD's, with one hand on the wheel and one hand in the air, basking in the love and joy of my Lord. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v250/Elle232002/th_love.gif

For those occasions you need to pick up your Acappella Vocal Band CD which is an acappella group that uses their voices (and technology) like instruments (drums and all). You won't be able to tell the difference and yet still use no instruments :)

They really are extremely talented and Keith Lancaster is a gifted musician, producer and songwriter.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:11 PM
For those occasions you need to pick up your Acappella Vocal Band CD which is an acappella group that uses their voices (and technology) like instruments (drums and all). You won't be able to tell the difference and yet still use no instruments :)

They really are extremely talented and Keith Lancaster is a gifted musician, producer and songwriter.

But if they are using their voices like instruments.......:hmm:

That reminds me....I picked up a new CD today. The Crabb Family....anyone ever heard of 'em? I've never explored Southern Gospel, but these guys (and girl) are very talented.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:15 PM
I still don't understand what this has to do with musical instruments in worship. Yes, we are under a new covenant, but why does that covenant extend to musical instruments in worship?

If instruments aren't mentioned in the NT, I don't see how that makes it prohibited, especially since they worshiped with instruments in the OT.

The concept, as I just tried to explain to Moonglow, is that if we want to worship God as best we can in the way He wants, then we will do in worship only what we find a command for under the covenant under which we live. Since there is no command or example to use the instrument, we don't use the instrument. This is safe, and surely God-honoring.



If instruments were so bad, wouldn't Paul or someone make a point of telling us so?

If instruments were okay, why didn't the early Christians use them? Why did the reformers such as Luther, and people like Wesley and others call the instrument in worship an abomination?


So why is drinking alcohol taboo (for lack of a better word!) in the CoC?

Off topic, but in the American culture, to see a Christian in a liquor store will weaken their example of Christ before others. For instance, a drunk sees a Christian preacher in the liquor store, and feels emboldened to continue his lifestyle, etc. Many other examples, but you get the drift. If it causes another to stumble, I won't practice it.


But....it doesn't say to give a holy handshake. It says to give a holy kiss.

Again, this IS cultural. If I kissed a man at the door, people would get the wrong idea. Instead, a handshake means the same thing in our culture.


And if you are going to go by cultural relevance, then perhaps for our culture, instruments during worship is acceptable.

Again, the examples don't mix. Singing is one type of music, playing an instrument is another. One cannot be confused or substituted for the other. An instrument cannot teach, admonish, etc.

Handshake and kisses mean the same thing in their respective cultures.


I can't wait to hear this one. :lol:

I forgot the question.


Surely you know many would disagree with that. ;)

But that doesn't make it incorrect, Matt. 7:13-14.


Don't you have a wife to do those things? :rolleyes:

Yep, but being among the other parents gives me yet another opportunity to preach the gospel in word and deed.


Ha ha....just kidding. Don't you all stone me at once! :o

Again, you're hung up on the old Law of Moses. :rofl:

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:18 PM
Ah.....wow. Okay.

So does he never use his musical abilities in worship....even at home? Because, in my ever so humble (and often inconsequential) opinion, it would be sad to offer such a beautiful gift to others yet never to the Lord. Shouldn't He always come first?
Yes, He should always come first. And because of that, I choose to worship vocally only, because that's the only example I find in the NT.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:19 PM
I forgot the question.

Lifting our hands in praise........;)

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:25 PM
Lifting our hands in praise........;)
Yeah, right. That's a big subject in itself. Some congregations of the church do raise their hands while singing. Which always seemed strange, because Paul called for that during prayer. But, that would be a whole 'nother thread. :)

Christinme
Sep 6th 2006, 09:26 PM
Greet each other with a holy kiss? (2 Corinthians 13:12)No, but I shake hands, which is the same in our culture.Hi Matt,

I was waiting to hear your response on this one. It doesn't say a holy kiss or whatever is equivalent in the culture you are living in ... So really I don't see how you can pick and chose what things you are going to "change" if you are going to present yourself to other's as doing exactly what scripture tells us to do.

(added: I see you address this some above ... but then where do you see in scripture that it's ok to change things because what scripture instructs might be misinterpretted by those in "your culture". You say in our culture a hand shake is equivalent to a kiss ... but I think the question should be are they the same in God's eyes?)

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:27 PM
Yes, He should always come first. And because of that, I choose to worship vocally only, because that's the only example I find in the NT.

Honestly, Matt, it just makes no sense to me. Where did your gift come from, if not from God?

And truly, isn't it what is in our hearts that is important?

I think God is a God who loves variety. I think He loves all types of music, and I can't fathom Him not wanting to be worshiped with the wonderful variety of music we have on this earth.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:27 PM
Hey CIM....long time no see! :wave:

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:31 PM
Hi Matt,

I was waiting to hear your response on this one. It doesn't say a holy kiss or whatever is equivalent in the culture you are living in ... So really I don't see how you can pick and chose what things you are going to "change" if you are going to present yourself to other's as doing exactly what scripture tells us to do.
Do you give a holy kiss? If not, why not?

Vickilynn
Sep 6th 2006, 09:33 PM
If we worship Him outside the spirit and outside of truth (His word) then we are not worshipping properly. To worship in ways not prescribed in the word is to worship outside God's word, and thus outside of truth.

Shalom Matt,

May jump in here?

I believe that this is the rub that I have with the "no instruments in worship."

"Properly" worshipping G-d is worshipping Him with all of our being and with our whole hearts. G-d sees the heart. What is "proper" is to worship Him in spirit and in truth. That is Scripture, but I see no place where the there is a command not to worship Him with instruments and if we do so we are not worshipping Him properly. Unless it says that in the Scripture, I must say that it is a man-made command, not G-d's.

Also, you have said several times that because there is a lack of example of using intruments in worship in the NT that is a binding prohibitation of using intruments? Can you please explain that thinking to me based on Scripture? On the one hand, you say we are not under the OT law (where they did use instruments) and then on the other you say we are under a new law not to use instruments, but it's an implied law rather than a clear-cut command. I am confused as to how that is Scriptural.

Thank you!

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:34 PM
Honestly, Matt, it just makes no sense to me. Where did your gift come from, if not from God?

Not all gifts are to be used in the worship. Some people can paint or dance, but most don't see those as part of the worship, either.


And truly, isn't it what is in our hearts that is important?

To a large extent, yes. But God also wants us to worship in spirit and truth, right?


I think God is a God who loves variety. I think He loves all types of music, and I can't fathom Him not wanting to be worshiped with the wonderful variety of music we have on this earth.

Scripture...?

Christinme
Sep 6th 2006, 09:34 PM
Do you give a holy kiss? If not, why not?Yes I do ... I added to that post, you might want to check it out.

Christinme
Sep 6th 2006, 09:35 PM
Hey CIM....long time no see! :wave:Hello WG ... yea I've been a bit busy this summer.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:38 PM
Shalom Matt,

May jump in here?

I believe that this is the rub that I have with the "no instruments in worship."

"Properly" worshipping G-d is worshipping Him with all of our being and with our whole hearts. G-d sees the heart. What is "proper" is to worship Him in spirit and in truth. That is Scripture, but I see no place where the there is a command not to worship Him with instruments and if we do so we are not worshipping Him properly. Unless it says that in the Scripture, I must say that it is a man-made command, not G-d's.

There's also no stated command not to worship Him by jumping up and down on a bed of nails, but we don't do this because it's not found in scripture.

If we had to have a direct command NOT to worship God in certain ways, the Bible would be too large to carry. So when God directs singing, it seems safer and more honoring to Him not to add instruments.


Also, you have said several times that because there is a lack of example of using intruments in worship in the NT that is a binding prohibitation of using intruments? Can you please explain that thinking to me based on Scripture? On the one hand, you say we are not under the OT law (where they did use instruments) and then on the other you say we are under a new law not to use instruments, but it's an implied law rather than a clear-cut command. I am confused as to how that is Scriptural.

Can you reference the place in the OT where they were commanded to use the instrument in worship? That would be a good starting point.


Thank you!

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

You're welcome! God bless!

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:40 PM
Yes I do ... I added to that post, you might want to check it out.

Everyone in your congregation gives a holy kiss?

If I started, would you then agree that musical instruments are not authorized?

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:40 PM
Can you reference the place in the OT where they were commanded to use the instrument in worship? That would be a good starting point.

If it's not commanded, perhaps that is one of the areas left up to the discretion of the worshiper. :hmm:

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:42 PM
If it's not commanded, perhaps that is one of the areas left up to the discretion of the worshiper. :hmm:
You know the answer to this. ;)

If it's not commanded directly, but there are examples in the OT of its use, then we get the OT practice from example.

If you understand this, then you can understand why the lack of a NT example leads me to understand it's NOT part of NT worship.

Vickilynn
Sep 6th 2006, 09:44 PM
Not all gifts are to be used in the worship. Some people can paint or dance, but most don't see those as part of the worship, either.

Shalom Matt,

May I have Scripture to back that up please?

Also, do you sing in tongues as Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 14 (sing in the spirit)?

I believe G-d gives us gifts to use to worship Him. All gifts He gives should be used to glorify and worship Him. Our lives worship Him. Worship does not begin and end in a church service and anything outside of that is wrong. Every breath is drawn to worship Him. And we are commanded to worship Him.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:48 PM
Scripture...?

Well, that was obviously one of my humble (and often inconsequential) opinions.


You can look at God's creation and see He loves variety. :)

And God didn't create us a robots....right? We are all different and we all have different relationships with Him.

Some people cry in worship, some people dance, some sway, tap their feet, raise their hands, close their eyes, clap their hands.......

Worship, in my humble (and often inconsequential) opinion is not one size fits all. We all worship God in different ways.

Whispering Grace
Sep 6th 2006, 09:49 PM
I believe G-d gives us gifts to use to worship Him. All gifts He gives should be used to glorify and worship Him. Our lives worship Him. Worship does not begin and end in a church service and anything outside of that is wrong. Every breath is drawn to worship Him. And we are commanded to worship Him.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Amen. Great post!

My worship of God certainly doesn't end when I step out of church. In fact, I'd say I worship Him more intensely away from church than I do at church.

matthew94
Sep 6th 2006, 09:54 PM
There's certainly nothing wrong with refraining from using instruments in worship. I am sure we can all agree on that. The motivation for doing so is even honourable. But it isn't necessary. Only participating in activities that are directly addressed in the NT may be 'safe' (as was said above), but it certainly isn't necessary and, most importantly, shouldn't be enforced on other believers with different views. Simply put, the New Testament isn't very thick. Lots of cultural practices of the early Christians aren't recorded. And even if we had proof that they never used musical instruments, it wouldn't be an indicator that we shouldn't. The church back then was messed up from the get-go, just like us. That is one of my disagreements with the Church of Christ. They seem to teach that the church was just about perfect while the Apostles were alive. Reading any of the NT Epistles quickly puts that teaching to sleep.

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 09:59 PM
Shalom Matt,

May I have Scripture to back that up please?

Scripture to back up the idea that building a good house is not part of the corporate worship service? Again, there is no command or example saying we should "make origami to the Lord" as part of the worship, so therefore we do not practice it.


Also, do you sing in tongues as Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 14 (sing in the spirit)?

I don't see "singing in tongues" in that chapter, but tongues and gifts are a whole different thread. I do not believe many of the spiritual gifts of the first century are actice today, but let's don't get into that, it will derail the thread in a massive way.


I believe G-d gives us gifts to use to worship Him. All gifts He gives should be used to glorify and worship Him. Our lives worship Him. Worship does not begin and end in a church service and anything outside of that is wrong. Every breath is drawn to worship Him. And we are commanded to worship Him.

But there is a distinct difference in what we do in the worship service as an assembly of the saints, and what we do outside the assembly. And there is a difference between the "worship" that you say is every breath, which I would say should rather be "service," and the worship in the assembly.

Vickilynn
Sep 6th 2006, 10:00 PM
Shalom Matt,
I so appreciate your calm and clear responses. Thank you for answering my queries.


There's also no stated command not to worship Him by jumping up and down on a bed of nails, but we don't do this because it's not found in scripture.

If we had to have a direct command NOT to worship God in certain ways, the Bible would be too large to carry. So when God directs singing, it seems safer and more honoring to Him not to add instruments.

But Matt, I cannot agree that just because there is no written example of a practice that it means it is a command not to do it. There are no examples of many things that are just fine with G-d! The Word itself says that there were many things that happened but were not in the Bible itself:


John 21:25 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=John+21%3A25)
Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Can you reference the place in the OT where they were commanded to use the instrument in worship? That would be a good starting point.
I won't because I don't believe it is a command either way. I believe the Scriptures are clear that we are to worship Him with everything we are and everything He gives us and that includes instruments.

Jesus said even rocks would praise Him if people didn't! Last time I checked, rocks were not alive :D


37 As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, 38 saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”
But, I am responding to your assertion of example = command. In the OT as we have discussed, the examples are there. So, in response to your stand of example = command, I say that because the example of using musical instruments exists in both the OT and in Revelation as to worship in Heaven, that yes, instruments are a wonderful way to make music and worship G-d.

However, I totally respect your choice not to use instruments in your worship, I just want to make it clear I believe it is a choice, not a command. And when you say that if someone uses instruments they are not worshipping properly, that is (in my humble opinion) trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit in someone else's life. That's why I object, not because you should use instruments, but you write that if someone does, they are not worshipping G-d correctly, and not in truth.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 10:07 PM
There's certainly nothing wrong with refraining from using instruments in worship. I am sure we can all agree on that. The motivation for doing so is even honourable. But it isn't necessary. Only participating in activities that are directly addressed in the NT may be 'safe' (as was said above), but it certainly isn't necessary and, most importantly, shouldn't be enforced on other believers with different views. Simply put, the New Testament isn't very thick. Lots of cultural practices of the early Christians aren't recorded. And even if we had proof that they never used musical instruments, it wouldn't be an indicator that we shouldn't. The church back then was messed up from the get-go, just like us. That is one of my disagreements with the Church of Christ. They seem to teach that the church was just about perfect while the Apostles were alive. Reading any of the NT Epistles quickly puts that teaching to sleep.
Matthew, no one in the church of Christ teaches that congregations were perfect in the first century. Rather, we teach that the Bible teaches the perfect way to worship! And since we've no other guide than the Bible, we strive to teach and practice only what we find in the NT.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 6th 2006, 10:09 PM
Matthew, no one in the church of Christ teaches that congregations were perfect in the first century. Rather, we teach that the Bible teaches the perfect way to worship! And since we've no other guide than the Bible, we strive to teach and practice only what we find in the NT.

God bless!
Folks, I've got to get my legalistic self to Bible study. :D:

Talk to you soon, Lord willing.

Christinme
Sep 6th 2006, 10:12 PM
Everyone in your congregation gives a holy kiss?

If I started, would you then agree that musical instruments are not authorized?Matt14, it feels to me like you are dancing around this ... at least I don't hear any instruments there ... :rofl: I agree that they are not authorized, I also believe that they are not not authorized. The NT is silent on this. Silence on a matter does not make it necessarily something that shouldn't be done. But the NT is not silent on how we are to great each other ... a holy kiss ... not a holy kiss or whatever is an equivalent custom in your society.

Teke
Sep 6th 2006, 10:31 PM
But there is a distinct difference in what we do in the worship service as an assembly of the saints, and what we do outside the assembly. And there is a difference between the "worship" that you say is every breath, which I would say should rather be "service," and the worship in the assembly.

Now your getting at the point. I think it will become clearer when you explain this more.:)

I agree with you on the instruments (as you already know).

I wouldn't go to far on doing away with the temple and worship in "spirit and truth" tho. Jesus said He'd destroy the temple and build it back up in three days. Same temple. Which to me means same type of worship. Reading and singing scripture etc.

They still used water, oil (for anointing), incense, bread and wine etc. IOW all the material elements would still be present since they represent spiritual truths.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.:P

ProjectPeter
Sep 6th 2006, 11:37 PM
This thread is running on rocket fuel!!! :lol: I looked a little while ago and it was busy and now it's done taken off!

Whispering Grace
Sep 7th 2006, 12:16 AM
This thread is running on rocket fuel!!! :lol: I looked a little while ago and it was busy and now it's done taken off!

And what is your position on instruments in worship? :cool:

ProjectPeter
Sep 7th 2006, 12:27 AM
And what is your position on instruments in worship? :cool:
If it's the Martin's then I am against it. Otherwise... I'm okay with music as long as it ain't obnoxious and taking away from the true worship. I've seen musicians who play to be heard but then I've known singers that sang for the same reason. Myself... I gotta figure if there is a piano or whatever in the background and a person is singing and playing with a true heart of worship... then God's quite pleased. :)

Slug1
Sep 7th 2006, 12:34 AM
And what is your position on instruments in worship? :cool:

Hey WG, can I jump in also... if playing an instrument during church glorifies The Lord, I'm all for it.

Besides, singing in church or anywhere for that matter, without instruments seems so boring.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 01:00 AM
I would like to clarify myself here some. I don't want anyone to think that it is my belief that someone is in disobedience if they do not greet others with a holy kiss. My purpose of going on about this is because of such statements as this:

Rather, we teach that the Bible teaches the perfect way to worship! And since we've no other guide than the Bible, we strive to teach and practice only what we find in the NT.And this all gets into the pride issue ... we are more faithful/obedient than others, etc. etc. That is what concerns me. Especially when it gets to the point of not recognizing our brothers and sisters (the body of Chirst) as brothers and sisters (the body of Christ) because they have different convictions concerning certain things.

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 01:48 AM
Guys, I'll respond tomorrow to all post directed at me, especially one from Vickilynn. I'm tired, been a long day.

God bless you all.

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 01:47 PM
But Matt, I cannot agree that just because there is no written example of a practice that it means it is a command not to do it. There are no examples of many things that are just fine with G-d!

There are two sides of this issue, and it has more to do than with musical instruments. One view is that since God has given examples of worship in the NT, and since He said we must worship in Spirit and in truth (His Word), and since worship is directed toward God, it is safer to do only what we are sure we have examples for in God's word.

The other opposing view is that if there is no command against a practice, it is safe for worship. IMO, this leaves the door open to all sorts of practices that may not be God-honoring.

Again, in my view, it is better to be safe than to offend Almighty God in our worship.


The Word itself says that there were many things that happened but were not in the Bible itself:
John 21:25
Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Yeah, but that was in reference to what Jesus did. We know what is written is sufficient and able to fully equip us in all things.


I won't because I don't believe it is a command either way. I believe the Scriptures are clear that we are to worship Him with everything we are and everything He gives us and that includes instruments.

That's the point I'm trying to make. When folks say, "The OT uses instruments, so can we," they are following an example, not a command.

In the same way, the church of Christ follows an example (lack of instruments) for New Testament worship.


But, I am responding to your assertion of example = command. In the OT as we have discussed, the examples are there. So, in response to your stand of example = command, I say that because the example of using musical instruments exists in both the OT and in Revelation as to worship in Heaven, that yes, instruments are a wonderful way to make music and worship G-d.

As for the OT examples, I would say that since we are under a different covenant, and the worship of the OT was full of type and shadow, that instruments have gone theway of the temple, ie physical symbols giving way to spiritual.

In regard to Revelation, since Revelation is apocalyptic literature and is full of symbols, we cannot be sure about instrumens in heaven. Aside from that, since the instruments were in heaven and not on earth, we certainly cannot be sure that is directive or example for worship of God on earth.


However, I totally respect your choice not to use instruments in your worship, I just want to make it clear I believe it is a choice, not a command. And when you say that if someone uses instruments they are not worshipping properly, that is (in my humble opinion) trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit in someone else's life. That's why I object, not because you should use instruments, but you write that if someone does, they are not worshipping G-d correctly, and not in truth.

Again, this is what I believe, and I believe scripture supports it. In the end, our God is a consuming fire. Personally, I would love to use instruments in worship, since I am a musician by training. But IMO, to do so would be thinking more of myself than being sure I am honoring God by worshipping in the manner He desires, not how I desire.

I'm glad we were able to talk about this. Perhaps someone will benefit from the study. Good to meet you, too. God bless!

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 01:49 PM
Matt14, it feels to me like you are dancing around this ... at least I don't hear any instruments there ... :rofl: I agree that they are not authorized, I also believe that they are not not authorized. The NT is silent on this. Silence on a matter does not make it necessarily something that shouldn't be done. But the NT is not silent on how we are to great each other ... a holy kiss ... not a holy kiss or whatever is an equivalent custom in your society.

But the NT does authorize vocal music. Do you agree?

The NT does not authorize instrumental music. You agree with this, as you posted above.

Therefore, when we are talking about worshipping Almighty God, which is safer to practice?

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 01:50 PM
Besides, singing in church or anywhere for that matter, without instruments seems so boring.

Does that mean it's boring to God? Should one potentially offend God to keep from being bored?

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 01:51 PM
I would like to clarify myself here some. I don't want anyone to think that it is my belief that someone is in disobedience if they do not greet others with a holy kiss. My purpose of going on about this is because of such statements as this:
And this all gets into the pride issue ... we are more faithful/obedient than others, etc. etc. That is what concerns me. Especially when it gets to the point of not recognizing our brothers and sisters (the body of Chirst) as brothers and sisters (the body of Christ) because they have different convictions concerning certain things.

CIM, now you know it has nothing to do with pride.

It has to do with the fear of God.

moonglow
Sep 7th 2006, 02:14 PM
We are talking heaven here. And since I haven't been there, I can't be sure. But what is a harp used for, to make melody. So how do those in heaven know what, or I should say the melody of the song without some type of lead.

The Greek word for harp there is of an unknown affinity, which usually means they're not sure what it means. My speculation would be "melody". Or maybe like sheet music.

I looked up the greek word for harp and it means harp.

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+14:2&translation=nas&ot=bhs&nt=na&sr=1

Book of Revelation
Chapter 14

14:2
And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.

Strong's Number: 2788 kiqa/ra
Original Word Word Origin
kiqa/ra of uncertain affinity
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Kithara kith-ar'-ah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine None
Definition


1. a harp to which praises of God are sung in heaven


harpist...that plays the harp means excatly what it says also:

Strong's Number: 2790 kiqarw
Original Word Word Origin
kiqarw from (2788) and a derivative of the same as (5603)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Kitharodos kith-ar-o'-dos
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Masculine None
Definition


1. a harper, one who plays the harp and accompanies it with his voice

Can't be any clearer then that for sure!


If you ever take choir practice, with no instruments, to get the right note you have to have sheet music or a tone to follow.

Never did choir without instruments...I HAD to have music to follow...I can only read the notes as far as telling when they go high or low and that is about it. Most people in choir are just common folks that have not be taught how to read music. If I didn't have the music to follow I would have to follow someone else that knew how the song was suppose to go...and hope they were right! :lol:


So the metaphorical aspect would be toward that. And the easiest way to explain that in words would be to use an instrument which makes a melody.

I can understand it that way because we do not use instruments in worship.

For instance when we sing our alleulia verses, the reader anounces the tone/chord they are to be sung in. And since it varies, it could be considered as an instrument with chords played. But the instruments are our mouths singing in that chord, not a man made instrument.

I may be confusing you, but you brought up Revelation.:P

You didn't confuse me at all...:)

I am honestly surprised enough members of your church would know what the reader meant by annoucing what tone/chord to sing in...I wouldn't have a clue as to what they were talking about. :rolleyes: "Start on C." I would be going..."Uh?"

I think the verses in Revelation have been shrugged off without good cause...who excatly are these people with the harps?

Revelation 15:2
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

These are the saints, the believers, the Christians...!

If the early church didn't use musical instruments it would be my guess that wasn't due to the New Covenant since that would be mentioned for sure...but only because they were being hunted down and thrown in jail and even killed. Playing music would draw attention to the home they were worshipping it and be like putting a target on their front door..."We are in here worshipping God! Worshipping Jesus! Come arrest us!" They were going through some terrible times them. I remember hearing stories about them using boats turned upside down and gathering under it for worship and this is why the inside of alot of churches, especially older ones look like the underside of a boat in the sanctuary. And they used the sign of the fish to let other know where they were meeting at...which goes along with Jesus saying to be 'fishers of men'. Now whether those stories of them hiding under boats for worship are true or not, I don't know...but the inside of alot of churches when you look up, do look like the inside of a boat turned upside down.

I think playing a flute, harp or anything else would be a dead give away as to where to find the Christians though....:hmm:

Oh and another thing Matt, you keep saying we are no longer under the old laws in the OT, which is true, though some were carried over into the NT...but at any rate...I don't think there was ever a law in the OT saying they had to worship using musical instruments in the first place...so I don't see how you can use that as an argument.

God bless

Qara
Sep 7th 2006, 03:28 PM
Well, it has been an interesting morning read, althoug I did not read everything.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how people seem to feel so righteous about dropping what they call the "old testament," turning exclusively to what they call the "new." Truly amazing. I do wonder how this is justified and if nothing from the "old testament" seems relevant to those who do this.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 03:51 PM
But the NT does authorize vocal music. Do you agree?

The NT does not authorize instrumental music. You agree with this, as you posted above.

Therefore, when we are talking about worshipping Almighty God, which is safer to practice?
CIM, now you know it has nothing to do with pride.

It has to do with the fear of God.I am going to try to express where I am coming from here. I tend to usually be brief ... sometimes to a fault. I am going to try to be a bit more wordy here ... I'm sure I won't win any contests on longevity though.

I going to first address the "which is safer to practice" concept. In the OT it was never written (that I know of) that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath. Now obviously there were those who used this against Jesus Himself. I see this as a clear example to take heed of that is found in the NT. So this "principle" under which you are operating I don't find supported in Scripture. The "religious" of Jesus' time had all types of rules and fences that they constructed around the "law" with the expressed intent of being "safe" as to not offend God. And I think Jesus spoke rather clearly about this.

I can also find much in Scripture that gives the impression that done with the proper heart, worshipping God with the use of a musical instrument would not be offensive to Him. I think Romans 14 can support this along with 1 Corinthians 2.

And no Matt14 I don't know it has nothing to do with pride. Pride is a sneaky little think, it's something I think we all need to be on the look out for.

Whispering Grace
Sep 7th 2006, 04:00 PM
I going to first address the "which is safer to practice" concept. In the OT it was never written (that I know of) that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath. Now obviously there were those who used this against Jesus Himself. I see this as a clear example to take heed of that is found in the NT. So this "principle" under which you are operating I don't find supported in Scripture. The "religious" of Jesus' time had all types of rules and fences that they constructed around the "law" with the expressed intent of being "safe" as to not offend God. And I think Jesus spoke rather clearly about this.

Very good point. :)

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 05:22 PM
You didn't confuse me at all...:)

I am honestly surprised enough members of your church would know what the reader meant by annoucing what tone/chord to sing in...I wouldn't have a clue as to what they were talking about. :rolleyes: "Start on C." I would be going..."Uh?"

And that would be fine too. (not singing) In some huge churchs (EO) the laity doesn't sing, they have a choir. My church is small and whoever is ther is it (choir, reader etc)
What I'm telling you is also a bit of a history lesson on the subject of early worship. Eastern people, not only Jews, have traditionally worshipped by chanting the scriptures and singing short psalms.

It is strange to the western mind, as its not familiar.


I think the verses in Revelation have been shrugged off without good cause...who excatly are these people with the harps?

Revelation 15:2
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

These are the saints, the believers, the Christians...!

If the early church didn't use musical instruments it would be my guess that wasn't due to the New Covenant since that would be mentioned for sure...but only because they were being hunted down and thrown in jail and even killed. Playing music would draw attention to the home they were worshipping it and be like putting a target on their front door..."We are in here worshipping God! Worshipping Jesus! Come arrest us!" They were going through some terrible times them. I remember hearing stories about them using boats turned upside down and gathering under it for worship and this is why the inside of alot of churches, especially older ones look like the underside of a boat in the sanctuary. And they used the sign of the fish to let other know where they were meeting at...which goes along with Jesus saying to be 'fishers of men'. Now whether those stories of them hiding under boats for worship are true or not, I don't know...but the inside of alot of churches when you look up, do look like the inside of a boat turned upside down.

I haven't shrugged them off. And I've never heard such a story as what your speaking about worshipping under boats. They use to worship in cemetaries and take the Lords supper there also, doing all in secret. This is historical info you can look up for yourself.

And as to the boat idea. Only thing I can think of is that the sanctuary is like Noahs ark, and also like the ark of the covenant. But that is a whole other subject. If you want some info and diagrams pm me.


I think playing a flute, harp or anything else would be a dead give away as to where to find the Christians though....:hmm:

Oh and another thing Matt, you keep saying we are no longer under the old laws in the OT, which is true, though some were carried over into the NT...but at any rate...I don't think there was ever a law in the OT saying they had to worship using musical instruments in the first place...so I don't see how you can use that as an argument.

God bless

I don't know why the law keeps being brought up. Or the OT being done away with. The law has nothing to do with it. And the OT is still just fine, pertaining to the temple and worship, that is.

But if one wants to make a case for instruments from the OT, then present the scripture that says they used them IN the temple, during corporate worship. That would get my attention.:P

A matter of pride would be if someone was playing an instrument in a solemn assembly of believers before God. As that would not be one unified whole then. Since One person would be doing something different than others.

And there is still the matter of "creation praising" Him which I brought attention to, but hasn't been addressed.

So (anyone) show me temple worship, OT or NT with instruments.
If you think the law has something to do with it, then show me the law.
And if you see where God wants something other than His creation to praise Him, show me that also.(God created you, not the instrument)

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 05:37 PM
I going to first address the "which is safer to practice" concept. In the OT it was never written (that I know of) that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath. Now obviously there were those who used this against Jesus Himself. I see this as a clear example to take heed of that is found in the NT. So this "principle" under which you are operating I don't find supported in Scripture. The "religious" of Jesus' time had all types of rules and fences that they constructed around the "law" with the expressed intent of being "safe" as to not offend God. And I think Jesus spoke rather clearly about this.

I can also find much in Scripture that gives the impression that done with the proper heart, worshipping God with the use of a musical instrument would not be offensive to Him. I think Romans 14 can support this along with 1 Corinthians 2.

And no Matt14 I don't know it has nothing to do with pride. Pride is a sneaky little think, it's something I think we all need to be on the look out for.

For Matt14, perhaps it does have to do with pride, which means it would be a sin to him then.

Grant it we (Matt and I) are in the minority on this issue (just seeing it a bit different as he's on one side of the mountain and I the other). And I agree with you on the being safe and the scriptures you've pointed out, as this is not a dogmatic teaching of the churchs. (but one of those "doubtful things" Rom. 14:1)

So we don't have to approach it as such (dogmatic truth). And we are each entitled to our opinions. However, since we're in bible chat and this is the subject (musical instruments).

Scriptures.......Moonglow has presented some scripture on an instrument in corporate worship, that has been addressed.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 05:47 PM
But if one wants to make a case for instruments from the OT, then present the scripture that says they used them IN the temple, during corporate worship. That would get my attention.:PThen I guess this should get your attention ...


2 Chronicles 5

So all the work that Solomon had done for the house of the LORD was finished; and Solomon brought in the things which his father David had dedicated: the silver and the gold and all the furnishings. And he put them in the treasuries of the house of God.

Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, in Jerusalem, that they might bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD up from the City of David, which is Zion. Therefore all the men of Israel assembled with the king at the feast, which was in the seventh month. So all the elders of Israel came, and the Levites took up the ark. Then they brought up the ark, the tabernacle of meeting, and all the holy furnishings that were in the tabernacle. The priests and the Levites brought them up. Also King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel who were assembled with him before the ark, were sacrificing sheep and oxen that could not be counted or numbered for multitude. Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim. For the cherubim spread their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles. The poles extended so that the ends of the poles of the ark could be seen from the holy place, in front of the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside. And they are there to this day. Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they had come out of Egypt.

And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying:

"For He is good,

For His mercy endures forever,"

that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud, so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.


And if you see where God wants something other than His creation to praise Him, show me that also.(God created you, not the instrument)Teke, the instrument is not what is praising Him ... It doesn't play by itself (although if God wanted to make them all play by themselves He could, just like He could animate the stones), it is being used by man in worship. Just like many other things man makes and uses during worship.

moonglow
Sep 7th 2006, 06:08 PM
And that would be fine too. (not singing) In some huge churchs (EO) the laity doesn't sing, they have a choir. My church is small and whoever is ther is it (choir, reader etc)
What I'm telling you is also a bit of a history lesson on the subject of early worship. Eastern people, not only Jews, have traditionally worshipped by chanting the scriptures and singing short psalms.

It is strange to the western mind, as its not familiar.


I haven't shrugged them off. And I've never heard such a story as what your speaking about worshipping under boats. They use to worship in cemetaries and take the Lords supper there also, doing all in secret. This is historical info you can look up for yourself.

And as to the boat idea. Only thing I can think of is that the sanctuary is like Noahs ark, and also like the ark of the covenant. But that is a whole other subject. If you want some info and diagrams pm me.


I don't know why the law keeps being brought up. Or the OT being done away with. The law has nothing to do with it. And the OT is still just fine, pertaining to the temple and worship, that is.

But if one wants to make a case for instruments from the OT, then present the scripture that says they used them IN the temple, during corporate worship. That would get my attention.:P

A matter of pride would be if someone was playing an instrument in a solemn assembly of believers before God. As that would not be one unified whole then. Since One person would be doing something different than others.

And there is still the matter of "creation praising" Him which I brought attention to, but hasn't been addressed.

I don't remember you bring that up...maybe I missed that post, can you give me the post number so I can look it up? thanks.


So (anyone) show me temple worship, OT or NT with instruments.
If you think the law has something to do with it, then show me the law.
And if you see where God wants something other than His creation to praise Him, show me that also.(God created you, not the instrument)

But what are instruments made from? From the things God created....right?

Vickilynn, posted this scripture earlier:

Luke 19
36 Then the crowds spread out their coats on the road ahead of Jesus. 37As they reached the place where the road started down from the Mount of Olives, all of his followers began to shout and sing as they walked along, praising God for all the wonderful miracles they had seen.



38
"Bless the King who comes in the name of the Lord!
Peace in heaven
and glory in highest heaven!"
39 But some of the Pharisees among the crowd said, "Teacher, rebuke your followers for saying things like that!"

40 He replied, "If they kept quiet, the stones along the road would burst into cheers!"

We can say God created the rocks...mean use rocks to makes all sorts of things...and no they aren't 'living'...but God still created them. A flute can be made of metal which comes from the earth that God created and created everything in and on the earth. It can be made of wood...which again is created by God. There is literally nothing that exists that God didn't make. Even us using these things to make something from it...God created us with the ablitily to make these things to start with.

Genesis 4:20-22

20 Adah gave birth to a baby named Jabal. He became the first of the herdsmen who live in tents. 21 His brother's name was Jubal, the first musician--the inventor of the harp and flute. 22 To Lamech's other wife, Zillah, was born Tubal-cain. He was the first to work with metal, forging instruments of bronze and iron. Tubal-cain had a sister named Naamah.

Psalm 5:1
[ For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be accompanied by the flute. ] O LORD, hear me as I pray; pay attention to my groaning.


We can do nothing without God.

God bless

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 06:22 PM
Then I guess this should get your attention ...

Well, no it doesn't.
As it says "and it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place"
So they are not in the Holy Place. Where is Christ in the NT of Hebrews 9, "the holy place".
This means that His Body, the Church, is in the Holy Place when in corporate worship.



Teke, the instrument is not what is praising Him ... It doesn't play by itself (although if God wanted to make them all play by themselves He could, just like He could animate the stones), it is being used by man in worship. Just like many other things man makes and uses during worship.

The rocks would make more sense as they are His creation, not something we created from them. IOW changed His creation to ours.
If He wants the firstfruits, meaning that which is of His own creation. Does He want what we created for Him. That wouldn't be a firstfruit IMHO.

All our works (creations) are filthy rags compared to His creation.

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 06:26 PM
But what are instruments made from? From the things God created....right?

We can say God created the rocks...mean use rocks to makes all sorts of things...and no they aren't 'living'...but God still created them. A flute can be made of metal which comes from the earth that God created and created everything in and on the earth. It can be made of wood...which again is created by God. There is literally nothing that exists that God didn't make. Even us using these things to make something from it...God created us with the ablitily to make these things to start with.



God bless

See my post above to Christinme. The rocks are part of His creation. The instruments are our recreation from His creation. Which is a firstfruits? Which is acceptable in the Holy Place where Christs Body/Church is to stand before God.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 06:50 PM
Well, no it doesn't.
As it says "and it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place"
So they are not in the Holy Place. Where is Christ in the NT of Hebrews 9, "the holy place".
This means that His Body, the Church, is in the Holy Place when in corporate worship.Teke you specified "IN the temple, during corporate worship". They were in "IN the temple, during corporate worship". Corporate worship did not take place in "the Most Holy Place" in the OT, quite obviously then there won't be examples of any type of corporate worship in "the Most Holy Place".

We also have this:


1 Chronicles 16:4-6 ... 37

And he appointed some of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, to commemorate, to thank, and to praise the LORD God of Israel: Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, then Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, and Obed-Edom: Jeiel with stringed instruments and harps, but Asaph made music with cymbals; Benaiah and Jahaziel the priests regularly blew the trumpets before the ark of the covenant of God.

So he left Asaph and his brothers there before the ark of the covenant of the LORD to minister before the ark regularly, as every day's work requiredHere we see them being appointed to daily minister before the ark with musical instruments.



The rocks would make more sense as they are His creation, not something we created from them. IOW changed His creation to ours.
If He wants the firstfruits, meaning that which is of His own creation. Does He want what we created for Him. That wouldn't be a firstfruit IMHO.

All our works (creations) are filthy rags compared to His creation.Doesn't really seem that God had/has a problem with musical instruments being used. Got anywhere in Scripture that would indicate that He does?

moonglow
Sep 7th 2006, 06:54 PM
See my post above to Christinme. The rocks are part of His creation. The instruments are our recreation from His creation. Which is a firstfruits? Which is acceptable in the Holy Place where Christs Body/Church is to stand before God.

Well you lost me on this 'first fruit' thing...I have no idea what you are talking about. :confused

The Bible IS the Word of God, right? Inspired by God...and the bible says we can, should worship Him with musical instruments...

That all creation should worship the Lord:

Psalm 69:34
Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein

Psalm 150
Let All Things Praise the LORD
1 Praise the LORD!

Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!

2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.

Praise the LORD!

Psalm 98
A psalm.
1
Sing a new song to the LORD,
for he has done wonderful deeds.
He has won a mighty victory
by his power and holiness.

2
The LORD has announced his victory
and has revealed his righteousness to every nation!

3
He has remembered his promise to love and be faithful to Israel.
The whole earth has seen the salvation of our God.

4
Shout to the LORD, all the earth;
break out in praise and sing for joy!

5
Sing your praise to the LORD with the harp,
with the harp and melodious song,


6 with trumpets and the sound of the ram's horn.
Make a joyful symphony before the LORD, the King!

7
Let the sea and everything in it shout his praise!
Let the earth and all living things join in.


8 Let the rivers clap their hands in glee!
Let the hills sing out their songs of joy


9 before the LORD.
For the LORD is coming to judge the earth.
He will judge the world with justice,
and the nations with fairness.




This discounting it because its not in the NT really bothers me alot...

When we study the end times for instance, we refer quiet a bit to the OT...both Testaments work togther...not apart.

God bless

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 07:34 PM
Teke you specified "IN the temple, during corporate worship". They were in "IN the temple, during corporate worship". Corporate worship did not take place in "the holy place" in the OT, quite obviously then there won't be examples of any type of corporate worship in "the holy place".


What is the holy place to you? Are you thinking the Holy of Holies, or the Nave. We know in the NT there is no more veil between the Holy of Holies (altar) and the Nave. The Narthex represented the world, so maybe that is where they could have been doing this. But I doubt it. Upon entering the Nave we leave the worldly behind.

This is the way I see it when I enter the Church/Holy Place. I bow to remind myself of this also as I'm in the presence of His altar. (the altar is the temple, or foundation)




Doesn't really seem that God had/has a problem with musical instruments being used. Got anywhere in Scripture that would indicate that He does?

No, I don't, which is why I said it is not a dogma of the church.
I just see it as His creation versus our creations. That's all.:)

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 07:43 PM
Well you lost me on this 'first fruit' thing...I have no idea what you are talking about. :confused

That was in reference to His creation. His creation is the firstfruits, not our creations from that.


The Bible IS the Word of God, right? Inspired by God...and the bible says we can, should worship Him with musical instruments...

That all creation should worship the Lord:



This discounting it because its not in the NT really bothers me alot...

When we study the end times for instance, we refer quiet a bit to the OT...both Testaments work togther...not apart.

God bless

Again I'm not discounting anything. I'm also not telling anyone how to worship.
If you want to make a bunch of noise in the assembly that is your choice.

The ultimate height of praise is seen in Revelation in the "silence" (Rev. 8:1). Which nothing can express.

Maybe I have a fear of holiness which keeps me from such type of worship. ie. holy fear

moonglow
Sep 7th 2006, 08:07 PM
That was in reference to His creation. His creation is the firstfruits, not our creations from that.


Again I'm not discounting anything. I'm also not telling anyone how to worship.
If you want to make a bunch of noise in the assembly that is your choice.

The ultimate height of praise is seen in Revelation in the "silence" (Rev. 8:1). Which nothing can express.

Maybe I have a fear of holiness which keeps me from such type of worship. ie. holy fear

I don't see this as worship...nothing is said about worship here:

Revelation 8
The Lamb Breaks the Seventh Seal
1When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence throughout heaven for about half an hour.

Of course there is a time to be silent...and a time to praise Him, in quiet a few different ways. I guess I have struggled on this thread in simply trying to understand your view and Matt's is all....it really baffles me. I was hoping to gain some insight in yours and his thinking on this but I still don't get it.

But that is ok. As I said in the beginning of this thread, I totally respect your right and his to worship the Lord in how you see fit. I don't personally see worship restricted to just the time we are in church either, by any means. But we can worship Him in so many ways...would be a long list if I put it all on here.

At any rate, be content with what you believe is right...:)

God bless

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 08:30 PM
What is the holy place to you? Are you thinking the Holy of Holies, or the Nave. We know in the NT there is no more veil between the Holy of Holies (altar) and the Nave. The Narthex represented the world, so maybe that is where they could have been doing this. But I doubt it. Upon entering the Nave we leave the worldly behind.

This is the way I see it when I enter the Church/Holy Place. I bow to remind myself of this also as I'm in the presence of His altar. (the altar is the temple, or foundation)I had changed that post, I guess you were working on this post when I changed it. You had quoted about "the holy place" and I initially took what you wrote in your post. They came out of "the Most Holy Place" not "the holy place". It is the ark that is in "the Most Holy Place" and that is where they came out of ... the veil seperated the ark (the Most Holy Place) from the holy place. They were NEXT TO THE ALTAR when they used instruments ... reread the verses above (2 Chronicles 5).



Doesn't really seem that God had/has a problem with musical instruments being used. Got anywhere in Scripture that would indicate that He does?
No, I don't, which is why I said it is not a dogma of the church.Whether it is a dogma of the church would depend on what church you are referring to.

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 08:45 PM
I had changed that post, I guess you were working on this post when I changed it. You had quoted about "the holy place" and I initially took what you wrote in your post. They came out of "the Most Holy Place" not "the holy place". It is the ark that is in "the Most Holy Place" and that is where they came out of ... the veil seperated the ark (the Most Holy Place) from the holy place. They were NEXT TO THE ALTAR when they used instruments ... reread the verses above (2 Chronicles 5).
Your right, they are facing west (if they were facing east it would indicate a worship ceremony). But this is a one time event as it is the dedication of the temple.

So of course there was a celebration going on, not a worship service. The priests are all present, there are no courses. Its not a worship service.

Maybe they had one afterwards.




Whether it is a dogma of the church would depend on what church you are referring to.

I suppose one could make it a dogma of the Church, tho I don't see how. Its not a dogma of my Church. And we don't use instruments.

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 09:09 PM
I going to first address the "which is safer to practice" concept. In the OT it was never written (that I know of) that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath. Now obviously there were those who used this against Jesus Himself. I see this as a clear example to take heed of that is found in the NT. So this "principle" under which you are operating I don't find supported in Scripture. The "religious" of Jesus' time had all types of rules and fences that they constructed around the "law" with the expressed intent of being "safe" as to not offend God. And I think Jesus spoke rather clearly about this.

Actually, Jesus contended with the religious leaders, especially the Pharisees and the scribes, because they added to the Law, and misinterpreted the Law. For instance, in Matthew chapter 5, we see Jesus dealing with things that were improper interpretation of the Law and additions to the Law.

The Jews expansions on the Law didn't have to do with being "safe." In fact, Jesus Christ spelled out the "safer" path in regard to the Law in Matt. 5. For instance, "you shall not commit adultery," but Jesus said whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart. So the safe path that Jesus outlines is one where we don't sin at heart, where sin starts.

So this idea of the Jews seeking the "safe path" and trying to liken my beliefs to that is in accurate. Jesus was rather the one who outlined a "safe path" and urged us to walk it.


I can also find much in Scripture that gives the impression that done with the proper heart, worshipping God with the use of a musical instrument would not be offensive to Him. I think Romans 14 can support this along with 1 Corinthians 2.

Romans 14 is not about worship practices, but about daily living.

And I do not see what 1 Corinthians 2 has to do with the subject, you will have to point it out for me.


And no Matt14 I don't know it has nothing to do with pride. Pride is a sneaky little think, it's something I think we all need to be on the look out for.

So what you are saying is that I seek to serve God only as the NT instructs because I'm prideful?

And I'm prideful because I would have all men to serve Him as best they can also?

Whispering Grace
Sep 7th 2006, 09:18 PM
Matt, I think there is a huge difference between sin and worship.

And regarding worship and "playing it safe" can you address this (that I posted in the other thread):


Do you think the woman with the expensive oil was "playing it safe" when she annointed Jesus' head with it? Do you think the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair was "playing it safe"? Do you think King David was "playing it safe" when he danced before the Lord with all his might?

I see those willing to step out and "go the extra mile" in worship as being praised and made an example of in the Bible. Didn't Jesus say that the woman who used the expensive oil to annoint His head would always be remembered for it?

That, to me, says that God doesn't want us to "play it safe" with our worship of Him.

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 09:24 PM
Matt, I think there is a huge difference between sin and worship.

And regarding worship and "playing it safe" can you address this (that I posted in the other thread):



I see those willing to step out and "go the extra mile" in worship as being praised and made an example of in the Bible. Didn't Jesus say that the woman who used the expensive oil to annoint His head would always be remembered for it?

That, to me, says that God doesn't want us to "play it safe" with our worship of Him.
Again, I think you are confusing the idea of corporate worship with living a life of service. You'll have to explain to me what the woman annointing Jesus' feet has to do with the worship of the NT church assembly.

Matt14
Sep 7th 2006, 09:25 PM
I see those willing to step out and "go the extra mile" in worship as being praised and made an example of in the Bible.

How far are you willing to go with that statement, WG? Where is the line for you on what is acceptable in the worship of the church?

Whispering Grace
Sep 7th 2006, 09:34 PM
Again, I think you are confusing the idea of corporate worship with living a life of service. You'll have to explain to me what the woman annointing Jesus' feet has to do with the worship of the NT church assembly.

So you think the woman who annointed Jesus wasn't doing it as an act of worship?

I understood that you don't worship God through instruments ever, not just in corporate worship.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 09:38 PM
Your right, they are facing west (if they were facing east it would indicate a worship ceremony). But this is a one time event as it is the dedication of the temple.

So of course there was a celebration going on, not a worship service. The priests are all present, there are no courses. Its not a worship service.

Maybe they had one afterwards.And I thought the temple was specifically designed for them to face west. (What do you mean there are no courses?)


Ezekiel 8:16 So He brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house; and there, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their backs toward the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east, and they were worshiping the sun toward the east.

And you haven't addressed the verses I posted in post #101 where we see them being appointed to daily minister before the ark with musical instruments.

1 Chronicles 16:4-6 ... 37

And he appointed some of the Levites to minister before the ark of the LORD, to commemorate, to thank, and to praise the LORD God of Israel: Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, then Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, and Obed-Edom: Jeiel with stringed instruments and harps, but Asaph made music with cymbals; Benaiah and Jahaziel the priests regularly blew the trumpets before the ark of the covenant of God.

So he left Asaph and his brothers there before the ark of the covenant of the LORD to minister before the ark regularly, as every day's work required.

And we have this also:

2 Chronicles 29:25-30

And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the LORD by His prophets. The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. Then Hezekiah commanded them to offer the burnt offering on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD also began, with the trumpets and with the instruments of David king of Israel. So all the assembly worshiped, the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded; all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. And when they had finished offering, the king and all who were present with him bowed and worshiped. Moreover King Hezekiah and the leaders commanded the Levites to sing praise to the LORD with the words of David and of Asaph the seer. So they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshiped.

Whispering Grace
Sep 7th 2006, 09:48 PM
How far are you willing to go with that statement, WG? Where is the line for you on what is acceptable in the worship of the church?

Well, I don't think it has to either be 1)hold back on worshiping God out of fear that we aren't doing it right, or 2)swing from the chandeliers of the sanctuary just to "go the extra mile".

I think a Spirit-indwelled believer whose heart is for God and with God is going to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. I don't think we need to worry about "doing it wrong" if our true desire is to exalt and magnify the Lord.

Christinme
Sep 7th 2006, 10:00 PM
Actually, Jesus contended with the religious leaders, especially the Pharisees and the scribes, because they added to the Law, and misinterpreted the Law. For instance, in Matthew chapter 5, we see Jesus dealing with things that were improper interpretation of the Law and additions to the Law.

The Jews expansions on the Law didn't have to do with being "safe." In fact, Jesus Christ spelled out the "safer" path in regard to the Law in Matt. 5. For instance, "you shall not commit adultery," but Jesus said whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery in his heart. So the safe path that Jesus outlines is one where we don't sin at heart, where sin starts.

So this idea of the Jews seeking the "safe path" and trying to liken my beliefs to that is in accurate. Jesus was rather the one who outlined a "safe path" and urged us to walk it.I notice you didn't address healing not being a specifically authorized activity on the Sabbath.



Romans 14 is not about worship practices, but about daily living.I don't agree with you here. When it mentions "esteems one day above the other" this is in reference to worship. It also mentions judging others concerning such things.



And I do not see what 1 Corinthians 2 has to do with the subject, you will have to point it out for me.I guess that's what you would think concerning this chapter since, I hope I'm accurately portraying your belief here, you don't believe that the Holy Spirit actually communicates and teaches us in these days.



So what you are saying is that I seek to serve God only as the NT instructs because I'm prideful?

And I'm prideful because I would have all men to serve Him as best they can also?No what I think is that you might want to examine if you are being prideful in thinking and declaring that you seek to serve God only as the NT instructs ... for example instructions on greeting each other with a holy kiss.

Qara
Sep 7th 2006, 10:54 PM
I'm sorry. When I went back to read it, my hastily-written note came across as really rude. Let me try again.

I really am amazed that people really feel good about dropping the "old testament," turning exclusively to what they call the "new." What verse are used to justify this?

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 10:59 PM
And I thought the temple was specifically designed for them to face west. (What do you mean there are no courses?)
Never mind about the courses, since its a celebration is likely why they were all there.
The Ezekial verse you posted is on sun worship. Their backs are toward the temple.
In the temple the altar faces east. The priest stands in front of the altar facing east, as east is where the beautiful gate is where the Lord comes and goes.




And you haven't addressed the verses I posted in post #101 where we see them being appointed to daily minister before the ark with musical instruments.


Well I don't understand what their doing. But its not a solemn assembly, wouldn't you agree.
I don't read of any solemn assemblies having musical instruments played in celebration. And the Lords Supper had no musical instruments present playing for Him and the Apostles, as it was a solemn assembly.


And we have this also:

Sounds like they were playing the instruments while the offering was being burnt, but when finished the King had them sing while they worshipped.
Why didn't they keep playing the instruments rather than sing at that point?


There is a regulatory aspect about this, which my last post to Matt14 pointed out he should bring out.
Colossians 2:23 mentions it as "will worship" (KJV), meaning self imposed religion. (I know Toolman and I talked on this subject once, but I can't find the thread).

uscchica09
Sep 7th 2006, 11:00 PM
I find the need for this thread confusing. Doesn't God tell us to glorify Him in everything that we do?? So, who are you to decide how a person worships their God?

Teke
Sep 7th 2006, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry. When I went back to read it, my hastily-written note came across as really rude. Let me try again.

I really am amazed that people really feel good about dropping the "old testament," turning exclusively to what they call the "new." What verse are used to justify this?


I don't see what your speaking of Qara. I'm addressing OT and NT in this thread.
:dunno:

Christinme
Sep 8th 2006, 12:12 AM
In the temple the altar faces east. The priest stands in front of the altar facing east, as east is where the beautiful gate is where the Lord comes and goes.Scripture?



Well I don't understand what their doing. But its not a solemn assembly, wouldn't you agree.
I don't read of any solemn assemblies having musical instruments played in celebration.The solemn assemblies in the OT at the temple centered around the sacrifices Teke ... And I think this was a solemn assembly ... how much more solemn can you get then the dedication of the temple.



And the Lords Supper had no musical instruments present playing for Him and the Apostles, as it was a solemn assembly.There is a lot of things that you participate in at church that weren't indicated to be present during the Lords Supper with the Apostles and Him.



Sounds like they were playing the instruments while the offering was being burnt, but when finished the King had them sing while they worshipped.
Why didn't they keep playing the instruments rather than sing at that point?I'm not sure there wasn't still instrument playing. There are examples in the OT were singing is referred to as playing instruments and even dancing:

1 Samuel 21:11 And the servants of Achish said to him, "Is this not David the king of the land? Did they not sing of him to one another in dances, saying: 'Saul has slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands'?"

Psalm 71:22 Also with the lute I will praise you-- And Your faithfulness, O my God! To You I will sing with the harp, O Holy One of Israel.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a new song to You, O God; On a harp of ten strings I will sing praises to You,



There is a regulatory aspect about this, which my last post to Matt14 pointed out he should bring out.
Colossians 2:23 mentions it as "will worship" (KJV), meaning self imposed religion. (I know Toolman and I talked on this subject once, but I can't find the thread).I am very familiar with this verse:

Colossians 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I would say that the abstinence of musical instruments COULD BE what has the "appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh".

Qara
Sep 8th 2006, 12:22 AM
I don't see what your speaking of Qara. I'm addressing OT and NT in this thread.
:dunno:Yes, you are, but some others are not.

But with regard to them, that's all right. No big deal. I was just curious. You know what curiosity did to that cat, but it sure had enjoyed itself!

Teke
Sep 8th 2006, 01:04 PM
Scripture?

Sorry, didn't think you wanted scripture on this as its off topic.

1 Chron. 9:18 (kings gate east, from palace to temple), verse 23 shows its the gates of the Lord. In the NT the Church looks and waits for His return, and Jesus said in Matt. 24:27 that He comes from the east, as the "lightning flashes from the east to the west".



The solemn assemblies in the OT at the temple centered around the sacrifices Teke ... And I think this was a solemn assembly ... how much more solemn can you get then the dedication of the temple.

Dedicating a temple is a celebration. And the sacrifices representing Him who was to come, where also done in celebration of Him.



There is a lot of things that you participate in at church that weren't indicated to be present during the Lords Supper with the Apostles and Him.

As I pointed out to Matt14, the elements of the temple are still present. We still use water to baptise, oil to anoint etc.



I'm not sure there wasn't still instrument playing. There are examples in the OT were singing is referred to as playing instruments and even dancing:

1 Samuel 21:11 And the servants of Achish said to him, "Is this not David the king of the land? Did they not sing of him to one another in dances, saying: 'Saul has slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands'?"

Psalm 71:22 Also with the lute I will praise you-- And Your faithfulness, O my God! To You I will sing with the harp, O Holy One of Israel.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a new song to You, O God; On a harp of ten strings I will sing praises to You,


But they are not solemn assemblies or corporate worhsip.

BTW, pointing out the Levites having instruments only shows that it is ONLY priests who played those instruments. Would churchs adhere to such? I find that doubtful. As it may be seen as prideful.


I am very familiar with this verse:

Colossians 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

I would say that the abstinence of musical instruments COULD BE what has the "appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh".

Thing is that without them, there is nothing between you and God. We are faced with our own selves before Him.

And IMO in this day and age, the church should be stricter about distractions in worship. As in this century people are always distracted by other things continuously. And it is the Churchs ministry to BRING folks before the Living God. In all reality of that truth.

One poster pointed out "its boring". Is examining yourself before the Lord (in His presence) boring? I find it very solemn and overwhelming being confronted with holiness. But that is just me, as I already mentioned, fear of holiness. It's what keeps some people out as well as brings them in.
To be or not to be holy, that is the question......<JK>:D

TrailBlazer4Christ
Sep 8th 2006, 07:10 PM
Okay, I didn't take the time to read the entire post, and I apologize. I started out reading the first one and it made me very tired and frustrated.

All I want to ask is how we as humans have the right to judge what the Lord smiles upon and what the Lord frowns upon when it comes to worshipping Him? I personally believe if He can show me, make me feel like, and tell me that He loves me through a yellow leaf falling into my book I'm reading, that He appreciates when I am creative in my worship of Him as well. It doesn't say anything in Scripture about the only way Jesus can tell us He loves us is by letting leaves fall into books, but I sure got the message when it happened!

Just as He is the same yesterday today and forever, so is His Word. It's controversies among CHRISTIANS like this that cause non-believers to question the authority of the Word as well as adopt the idea that the Bible contradicts itself (IE: "Why does it say use instruments in the OT and not in the NT? God contradicts Himself!")

In all actuality, people shouldn't sit around so much arguing about things like this. If we, as followers and disciples of Christ, believe the Word, we should treat each other as family and "avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9) We can agree to disagree and still see one another in Heaven one day. For lack of a better term I will use "worship" even though worship is a lifestyle, not a form of music. Anyway, if I can choose to worship through dancing, drawing, singing, playing instruments, praying, loving others, evangelizing, handing out free PB and J's to drunks on party night in the name of Jesus' love, etc. you can choose to worship with only vocals, and Jesus still loves us the same.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." -Romans 8:1

...the Word of God speaks for itself!

Whispering Grace
Sep 8th 2006, 07:16 PM
Okay, I didn't take the time to read the entire post, and I apologize. I started out reading the first one and it made me very tired and frustrated.

All I want to ask is how we as humans have the right to judge what the Lord smiles upon and what the Lord frowns upon when it comes to worshipping Him? I personally believe if He can show me, make me feel like, and tell me that He loves me through a yellow leaf falling into my book I'm reading, that He appreciates when I am creative in my worship of Him as well. It doesn't say anything in Scripture about the only way Jesus can tell us He loves us is by letting leaves fall into books, but I sure got the message when it happened!

Just as He is the same yesterday today and forever, so is His Word. It's controversies among CHRISTIANS like this that cause non-believers to question the authority of the Word as well as adopt the idea that the Bible contradicts itself (IE: "Why does it say use instruments in the OT and not in the NT? God contradicts Himself!")

In all actuality, people shouldn't sit around so much arguing about things like this. If we, as followers and disciples of Christ, believe the Word, we should treat each other as family and "avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." (Titus 3:9) We can agree to disagree and still see one another in Heaven one day. For lack of a better term I will use "worship" even though worship is a lifestyle, not a form of music. Anyway, if I can choose to worship through dancing, drawing, singing, playing instruments, praying, loving others, evangelizing, handing out free PB and J's to drunks on party night in the name of Jesus' love, etc. you can choose to worship with only vocals, and Jesus still loves us the same.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." -Romans 8:1

...the Word of God speaks for itself!

Nice post. Welcome to the board. :)

Vickilynn
Sep 8th 2006, 08:33 PM
For lack of a better term I will use "worship" even though worship is a lifestyle, not a form of music. Anyway, if I can choose to worship through dancing, drawing, singing, playing instruments, praying, loving others, evangelizing, handing out free PB and J's to drunks on party night in the name of Jesus' love, etc. you can choose to worship with only vocals, and Jesus still loves us the same.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." -Romans 8:1

...the Word of God speaks for itself!

Shalom Trailblazer!
Amen and amen! Preach it! :amen: :agree:


~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 8th 2006, 09:14 PM
As soon as I'm done working today, I will respond to this thread.

roadrunner570
Sep 8th 2006, 09:57 PM
I skimmed over this since I just got off work. So are we saying here that it is wrong or sinful for a church to use intruments in worship? Or are we just saying its okay for some churches who choose not to use them?

Teke
Sep 8th 2006, 11:19 PM
I skimmed over this since I just got off work. So are we saying here that it is wrong or sinful for a church to use intruments in worship?

Well Matt and I agree its not biblical in the NT. I also don't see it as so in the OT, least not in a solemn assembly. I addressed some points on this (who had the instruments and why they were being used)


Or are we just saying its okay for some churches who choose not to use them?

I don't think anyone condemned anyone else either way. In my view its not a dogma of the church.

Only scripture to support the use of instruments that was brought up was from the OT.

So I suppose it depends on how one views corporate worship and if there is a regulative quality it should have. (these two points were only touched on a bit)

roadrunner570
Sep 8th 2006, 11:22 PM
Well Matt and I agree its not biblical in the NT. I also don't see it as so in the OT, least not in a solemn assembly. I addressed some points on this (who had the instruments and why they were being used)


I don't think anyone condemned anyone else either way. In my view its not a dogma of the church.

Only scripture to support the use of instruments that was brought up was from the OT.

So I suppose it depends on how one views corporate worship and if there is a regulative quality it should have. (these two points were only touched on a bit)

Interesting.

Something else I find interesting, and not to get off topic here, just thinking to myself. I hear it said there is no NT commandment even though there might be OT referecnes to music in worship, therefore, we shouldn't do it.

Yet, when it comes to other topics such as war, where there is no NT commandmant or justification for war, people are quick to break out the OT as justification.

Not wantign to turn this into a "war" thread, but just saying, I hope we are keeping our exegesis consistent. :hmm:

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 01:52 AM
So you think the woman who annointed Jesus wasn't doing it as an act of worship?

Yes, in a way, but not in a Christian assembly under the New Covenant.


I understood that you don't worship God through instruments ever, not just in corporate worship.

Correct. But the two ideas are not really connected. We are told as a Christian body how to worship. In regard to music, we are told to sing. There are no instructions on annointing feet for the worship of the church, as far as I am aware.

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 01:55 AM
Well, I don't think it has to either be 1)hold back on worshiping God out of fear that we aren't doing it right, or 2)swing from the chandeliers of the sanctuary just to "go the extra mile".

I think a Spirit-indwelled believer whose heart is for God and with God is going to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. I don't think we need to worry about "doing it wrong" if our true desire is to exalt and magnify the Lord.

We we talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth, John 4:24, what do you think?

What is "spirit?" What is required to worship in this way?

What is "truth?" And what is required to worship in this way?

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 01:58 AM
I find the need for this thread confusing. Doesn't God tell us to glorify Him in everything that we do?? So, who are you to decide how a person worships their God?
Actually, it should be God who designates how we worship Him. What do you think?

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 02:27 AM
I really am amazed that people really feel good about dropping the "old testament," turning exclusively to what they call the "new." What verse are used to justify this?

Hi Qara,

Where exactly did someone say we turn exclusively to the NT? Specifically, Christians have been released from the law, Romans 7:6,7. Since we are in a new relationship with God through Jesus Christ, it is only natural to understand that commands and examples for New Testament worship would be found in the NT. Paul said that what was written before (OT, Hebrew scriptures) was written for our learning, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope, Romans 15:4.

No one has tossed the OT aside, but rather we understand how to place the OT in the spiritual timeline.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 02:28 AM
I notice you didn't address healing not being a specifically authorized activity on the Sabbath.

I'm pretty sure I did, but perhaps not in the way you expected. Jesus explained to them that doing good on the Sabbath was inherant in God's word. He also told them that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. This was obviously a concept since the creation (in principle), brought into practice with the Law.

However, healing was not a part of the worship of the Temple.

Singing is part of the worship of the NT church. We have a positive command to sing, but no example of musical instruments.

The situations are clearly not parallels.


I don't agree with you here. When it mentions "esteems one day above the other" this is in reference to worship. It also mentions judging others concerning such things.

No, it was a reference to the observance of festivals, feast days, etc.


I guess that's what you would think concerning this chapter since, I hope I'm accurately portraying your belief here, you don't believe that the Holy Spirit actually communicates and teaches us in these days.

The Holy Spirit communicates and teaches us through the Word of God. If He taught us directly, we should all have perfect recall of Jesus' teachings. Since neither of us, and no one else alive, has such recall, it is logical to understand that the written Word is the completed revelation of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit indwells the Christians, helps us in prayer (Romans 8), and seals us as children of God.


No what I think is that you might want to examine if you are being prideful in thinking and declaring that you seek to serve God only as the NT instructs ... for example instructions on greeting each other with a holy kiss.

To go backward yet again, just let me remind you that the "holy kiss" was not a part of worship. Christians have examples of teaching and preaching, praying, singing, giving, and partaking of the Lord's supper in the assembly. Kissing is not a part of worship. So no matter how much you'd like to dwell on the kissing, they are not similar events in worship. In fact, using a kiss as a greeting was going on long before Christianity, so Paul was commanding anything new. Instead, he was urging that the greetings--the kiss--be a holy one. So instead of starting or commanding something new, he was instructing them to keep their greetings holy.

Whispering Grace
Sep 9th 2006, 02:08 PM
Hi Matt. :)

This is obviously something we are not going to agree on. I simply do not see the omission of an example of instrumental worship in the NT as a commandment not to use instruments in worship.

And as I said in the other thread, worship is something that I can't hold back on. I want to worship God with everything that I am and everything that I have. I think worship should exude the sheer undiluted passion we have for the Lord. I can't think of anyone else who deserves my everything. And I can assure you, if I were blessed with a musical gift, I would be offering the best of my gift up to the Lord daily. :)

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 03:14 PM
Hi Matt. :)

This is obviously something we are not going to agree on. I simply do not see the omission of an example of instrumental worship in the NT as a commandment not to use instruments in worship.

And as I said in the other thread, worship is something that I can't hold back on. I want to worship God with everything that I am and everything that I have. I think worship should exude the sheer undiluted passion we have for the Lord. I can't think of anyone else who deserves my everything. And I can assure you, if I were blessed with a musical gift, I would be offering the best of my gift up to the Lord daily. :)
Would you please do me a favor, and respond to this one post before you leave this thread? I really think answering these two questions will help you see why I believe as I do.

God bless, and thanks!

strongmeat
Sep 9th 2006, 04:23 PM
What I have observed in this thread thus far is that the position of the Church of Christ adherents that instrumental music in worship is unauthorised or wrong is not clearly established in Scripture. The position is based on a particular interpretation of scripture. Anyone reading the Bible without bias or without being influenced by prior teaching that instrumental music in worship is wrong would not come to such a conclusion. In fact I know many individuals within the Church of Christ who do not accept the position but for the sake of peace and the fear of being disfellowshipped keep quiet. Of course if a local Church of Christ does start to use instruments or clap their hands when singing and this becomes known that congregation will be marked out and ostracised (so much for autonomy).

I have seen quite reasonable arguments against the Church of Christ position in this thread and the one started by Uric3. But these arguments are like water on a duck’s back (our Caribbean way of saying ‘words are falling on deaf ears’). These arguments, no matter how sound, are not going to change the Church of Christ adherents’ position. Any admission from the Church of Christ that they might be wrong on this issue would create untold havoc in this denomination. It would open a door and a possibility that their interpretation of other matters could also be wrong. It would shatter the image of the ‘one true church’ who think they are right about every doctrine and everybody else is wrong. Brethren, I sense the exasperation in some of your posts but you must understand that when one is in a system like the Church of Christ that person is generally dogmatic, inflexible, close-minded and wholly unwilling, if not unable, to accept or receive an alternative view (no insult intended). I once was there and I know what I am speaking of.

Now if the Church of Christ members are convicted or convinced that instrumental music in worship is wrong and should not be practised, they should refrain from using it. I do not have a problem with that. The problem that I and other persons undoubtedly have is the judgmental attitude that goes with their position (which is merely an interpretation). Take a look at the following questions/answers from the Church of Christ website brother Uric provided (http://www.tftw2.org/QA/QAindex9.htm (http://www.tftw2.org/QA/QAindex9.htm)):



QUESTION: Is it a sin to use and/or sing to the accompaniment of mechanical instruments of music in worship services?



ANSWER: Yes! It is sin to do so because there is no scripture in the New Testament that authorizes the use of mechanical instruments in worship to God! In Colossians 3:16, we are told that whatever we do in word (which would include singing) or deed (which would include playing and singing), it must be done in the name of (by the authority of) the Lord Jesus. Clearly, from Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16 and I Corinthians 14:15, we see that music authorized by the New Testament is vocal and congregational! We cannot, without sinning, take away from God’s Word (Revelation 22:18). We cannot, without sinning, add to God’s Word (Revelation 22:19). We cannot change His Word in any way (Galatians 1:6-9)! Neither can we go to the Old Testament to learn how we are to worship under the New Testament. This is true, because the Old Testament was taken out of the way at the cross of Christ. Please read carefully the following passages: II Corinthians 3; Galatians 3:16-29; Ephesians 2:13-19; Colossians 2:13-14; Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 8:7.

Mechanical instruments of music were first introduced into worship services in the eighth century, almost eight hundred years after the establishment of the church of Christ in 30-33AD. In fact, they have only become widely accepted in the last one hundred fifty years as religious groups moved progressively away from the purity of the Gospel. Clearly then, it is certain that the use of instruments was not included in the apostles’ doctrine (teaching). We have been admonished to continue steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine (Acts 2:42)! Would one be continuing steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine if he or she did something not included in their doctrine? Obviously not! Would he or she be violating God’s Word? Surely!

QUESTION: What will happen to those who sin by using instruments in worship to God?
ANSWER: God will not excuse or forgive any sin where there is no repentance! Therefore, unless there is true repentance, the same thing will happen to these as all others who disobey God! Paul tells us in II Thessalonians 1:7-9, “To you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God, and from the glory of His power.”

_____________________________________

Clearly the Church of Christ is teaching that it is a sin if we use instruments of music in worship and that if we who use instruments (I use my box guitar) do not repent we are going to hell.

This is legalism gone mad! This is severely judgmental! And to think that this church believes that they are the one true church. How sad, how sad. But I thank God that they are only fooling themselves and that the one true church comprises all believers in Christ Jesus whether they belong to Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, or any other denomination.


Yours in Christ,

strongmeat

Vickilynn
Sep 9th 2006, 05:21 PM
Shalom Strongmeat,

Thank you for your courage to speak directly to this! I agree with you that the Church of Christ doctrine is not supported by Scripture as a command
and I refute their position that individuals who believe differently than they do about this conviction on style of worship are in sin.

Amen and amen.

I had read the arguments and positions and simply do not agree with their interpretation on what is "authorized" or "proper" and choose to worship G-d as I believe He has led me and that is through voice and instruments as well as every other gift He bestows upon me.


~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 9th 2006, 11:04 PM
What I have observed in this thread thus far is that the position of the Church of Christ adherents that instrumental music in worship is unauthorised or wrong is not clearly established in Scripture. The position is based on a particular interpretation of scripture. Anyone reading the Bible without bias or without being influenced by prior teaching that instrumental music in worship is wrong would not come to such a conclusion. In fact I know many individuals within the Church of Christ who do not accept the position but for the sake of peace and the fear of being disfellowshipped keep quiet. Of course if a local Church of Christ does start to use instruments or clap their hands when singing and this becomes known that congregation will be marked out and ostracised (so much for autonomy).

I have seen quite reasonable arguments against the Church of Christ position in this thread and the one started by Uric3. But these arguments are like water on a duck’s back (our Caribbean way of saying ‘words are falling on deaf ears’). These arguments, no matter how sound, are not going to change the Church of Christ adherents’ position. Any admission from the Church of Christ that they might be wrong on this issue would create untold havoc in this denomination. It would open a door and a possibility that their interpretation of other matters could also be wrong. It would shatter the image of the ‘one true church’ who think they are right about every doctrine and everybody else is wrong. Brethren, I sense the exasperation in some of your posts but you must understand that when one is in a system like the Church of Christ that person is generally dogmatic, inflexible, close-minded and wholly unwilling, if not unable, to accept or receive an alternative view (no insult intended). I once was there and I know what I am speaking of.

Now if the Church of Christ members are convicted or convinced that instrumental music in worship is wrong and should not be practised, they should refrain from using it. I do not have a problem with that. The problem that I and other persons undoubtedly have is the judgmental attitude that goes with their position (which is merely an interpretation). Take a look at the following questions/answers from the Church of Christ website brother Uric provided (http://www.tftw2.org/QA/QAindex9.htm (http://www.tftw2.org/QA/QAindex9.htm)):



QUESTION: Is it a sin to use and/or sing to the accompaniment of mechanical instruments of music in worship services?



ANSWER: Yes! It is sin to do so because there is no scripture in the New Testament that authorizes the use of mechanical instruments in worship to God! In Colossians 3:16, we are told that whatever we do in word (which would include singing) or deed (which would include playing and singing), it must be done in the name of (by the authority of) the Lord Jesus. Clearly, from Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16 and I Corinthians 14:15, we see that music authorized by the New Testament is vocal and congregational! We cannot, without sinning, take away from God’s Word (Revelation 22:18). We cannot, without sinning, add to God’s Word (Revelation 22:19). We cannot change His Word in any way (Galatians 1:6-9)! Neither can we go to the Old Testament to learn how we are to worship under the New Testament. This is true, because the Old Testament was taken out of the way at the cross of Christ. Please read carefully the following passages: II Corinthians 3; Galatians 3:16-29; Ephesians 2:13-19; Colossians 2:13-14; Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 8:7.

Mechanical instruments of music were first introduced into worship services in the eighth century, almost eight hundred years after the establishment of the church of Christ in 30-33AD. In fact, they have only become widely accepted in the last one hundred fifty years as religious groups moved progressively away from the purity of the Gospel. Clearly then, it is certain that the use of instruments was not included in the apostles’ doctrine (teaching). We have been admonished to continue steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine (Acts 2:42)! Would one be continuing steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine if he or she did something not included in their doctrine? Obviously not! Would he or she be violating God’s Word? Surely!

QUESTION: What will happen to those who sin by using instruments in worship to God?
ANSWER: God will not excuse or forgive any sin where there is no repentance! Therefore, unless there is true repentance, the same thing will happen to these as all others who disobey God! Paul tells us in II Thessalonians 1:7-9, “To you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God, and from the glory of His power.”

_____________________________________

Clearly the Church of Christ is teaching that it is a sin if we use instruments of music in worship and that if we who use instruments (I use my box guitar) do not repent we are going to hell.

This is legalism gone mad! This is severely judgmental! And to think that this church believes that they are the one true church. How sad, how sad. But I thank God that they are only fooling themselves and that the one true church comprises all believers in Christ Jesus whether they belong to Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical, or any other denomination.


Yours in Christ,

strongmeat
And again, brother, I issue you the challenge of a formal debate on this website in The Arena, if you feel so strongly about refuting the beliefs of the church of Christ.

Present a topic, we'll decide on the final form of that topic, and you and I will discuss the scriptures in a focused manner, so perhaps you will stop tossing out random accusations with no responsibility for backing them up.

As a brother, I love you, and wish you well. But it's time for you to either engage in focused debate, or stop hurling accusations about legalism, etc.

God bless you and yours,

Matt

strongmeat
Sep 10th 2006, 12:43 AM
And again, brother, I issue you the challenge of a formal debate on this website in The Arena, if you feel so strongly about refuting the beliefs of the church of Christ.

Present a topic, we'll decide on the final form of that topic, and you and I will discuss the scriptures in a focused manner, so perhaps you will stop tossing out random accusations with no responsibility for backing them up.

As a brother, I love you, and wish you well. But it's time for you to either engage in focused debate, or stop hurling accusations about legalism, etc.

God bless you and yours,

Matt


Why are you so keen on debating with me? Am I the only one who has said that the Church of Christ's stand on this issue is legalism? As I said in the post you quoted and I repeat: "Brethren, I sense the exasperation in some of your posts but you must understand that when one is in a system like the Church of Christ that person is generally dogmatic, inflexible, close-minded and wholly unwilling, if not unable, to accept or receive an alternative view (no insult intended). I once was there and I know what I am speaking of."

A formal debate will prove nothing for it will end nowhere. When I was in the Church of Christ I engaged in debates and as I look back I understand why it bore no fruit. I was unable to accept or receive anything other than the doctrines taught to me by the Church of Christ missionaries who came to my country. From the answers you have given on this thread and the one I opened on baptism, you are no different than the typical Church of Christ zealot (no insult intended). God has told me to redeem the time. Engaging you in useless debate will be a squander of the time He has given me.

If needed I shall continue to post as I see fit in respect of any teachings of the Church of Christ. That is my prerogative, which you cannot take away.

I too wish you well, my brother, and I sincerely hope that one day you would know and enjoy the fellowship of all believers in Christ Jesus, irrespective of which group or denomination they belong to. It was an exhilarating and liberating experience for me when I broke free from the shackles of the Church of Christ and embraced all my brethren in the other denominations.

Yours in Christ,
strongmeat

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 01:17 AM
If you will not speak to me publically, speak to me privately. I came OUT of denominationalism, and am just as sure that I am on the Lord's path.

Blessings in Christ,

matt

Whispering Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 01:32 AM
Matt, I know it irks you to have the CoC referred to as a denomination and that you don't consider it one. But can you please explain to me how it's not a denomination?

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 01:43 AM
How about this, first?

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=948419&postcount=136

:)

Whispering Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 01:46 AM
How about this, first?

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=948419&postcount=136

:)

A bit demanding, aren't ya? :P

Okay okay, I was making my way over there anyway. :D

Whispering Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 01:55 AM
Yes, in a way, but not in a Christian assembly under the New Covenant.

Again, Matt, you have not shown how the New Covenant nullifies examples of OT worship.

God doesn't change. If He enjoyed worship with instruments in the OT, it makes no sense that He would suddenly despise it in the NT. And nowhere in the entire Bible is worship with instruments prohibited. Nowhere!


Correct. But the two ideas are not really connected. We are told as a Christian body how to worship. In regard to music, we are told to sing. There are no instructions on annointing feet for the worship of the church, as far as I am aware.

Yes, we are told to sing. So I'd say an instrumental church with no vocals is going against the Word. But nowhere are we commanded to forgo instruments.

And if you believe the prohibition is only for corporate worship, why do you not worship God with your music outside of church?

Whispering Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 02:02 AM
We we talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth, John 4:24, what do you think?

What is "spirit?" What is required to worship in this way?

What is "truth?" And what is required to worship in this way?

I think we worship in Spirit and Truth when we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and when we worship God in Truth....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Worship is about our hearts and souls crying out to God in love and adoration. It is not about adhering to rigid, man-made dogma.

uric3
Sep 10th 2006, 04:55 AM
Again, Matt, you have not shown how the New Covenant nullifies examples of OT worship.

God doesn't change. If He enjoyed worship with instruments in the OT, it makes no sense that He would suddenly despise it in the NT. And nowhere in the entire Bible is worship with instruments prohibited. Nowhere!


God can change his mind... you can see it throughout the Old and New Testaments for example in Exodus 20:25 it states "And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." So we see when an altar of stone was to be made no tool could be used upon it for it would defile it. Yet later when Solomn build the temple he was allowed to use hewn stone because God changed his mind an allowed it for whatever reason. Also in the OT to eat pork or things of that sort was concerned unclean and sinful, yet under the NT law its clearly ok. In the OT they were to keep that Sabbath day and do no work, yet in the NT its ok read Col 2:16.

In the OT to be pleasing to God you had to be circumsized, after Christ died a few decided to continue this teaching in Acts Acts 15:1 and we can see it was no longer pleasing and wasn't to be taught because it was under the Old Law and we can clearly see in Gal 5:1-7 that if they were to go back and pull that out and try to use Old Law they were a debtor to the whole law and Christ profited them nothing.

We can clearly see that it used to be pleasing to God but now its not... so God can change and just because it was pleasing to God then doesn't mean it is now and I think those passages above prove that beyond a doubt wouldn't you agree? Also I have a tread on What is the Law? That shows the law is Gen - Mal and what it is to be used for... if you would like to read that.

Just for a thought provoking question when you go back and look at history, even early church fathers and anything you can find in a historical document how come almost all of them clearly state that instermental music didn't enter the NT church until about 800-900AD? Doesn't that make you wonder why our breathern closer to the 1st century didn't use them for that long... we know they had them available yet they never used them and they was never introduced into the Chruch till about 800-900AD has to make you wonder...

yod
Sep 10th 2006, 06:59 AM
God can change his mind... you can see it throughout the Old and New Testaments for example in Exodus 20:25 it states "And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." So we see when an altar of stone was to be made no tool could be used upon it for it would defile it. Yet later when Solomn build the temple he was allowed to use hewn stone because God changed his mind an allowed it for whatever reason. Also in the OT to eat pork or things of that sort was concerned unclean and sinful, yet under the NT law its clearly ok. In the OT they were to keep that Sabbath day and do no work, yet in the NT its ok read Col 2:16.
In the OT to be pleasing to God you had to be circumsized, after Christ died a few decided to continue this teaching in Acts Acts 15:1 and we can see it was no longer pleasing and wasn't to be taught because it was under the Old Law and we can clearly see in Gal 5:1-7 that if they were to go back and pull that out and try to use Old Law they were a debtor to the whole law and Christ profited them nothing.

these paragraphs show a horrible misunderstanding of the Tenach.

building an altar and building a Temple are 2 different things. God never changed His mind about not using hewn stones for an altar.

And God never gave circumcision to gentiles since it is a sign of the land covenant of Israel with Abraham and his flesh....the jewish people.

All jews in the New Covenant scriptures maintained circumcision but the Holy Spirit and the Apostles ruled that gentiles would not be required to do this. Galatians is dealing with people who wanted gentiles to become converted into jews...hence the word "Judaizers"


Just for a thought provoking question when you go back and look at history, even early church fathers and anything you can find in a historical document how come almost all of them clearly state that instermental music didn't enter the NT church until about 800-900AD? Doesn't that make you wonder why our breathern closer to the 1st century didn't use them for that long... we know they had them available yet they never used them and they was never introduced into the Chruch till about 800-900AD has to make you wonder...

You can't argue from silence because silence is proof that the premise is flawed.

The original jewish assembly would have had no qualms about using instruments if they had a musician in their congregation who owned one and could play it. Since most of the original jewish assembly of Jerusalem still went to the Temple where there was a huge musical worship service, when they would meet apart from that as a congregation it was for fellowship or study of the law and the prophets.

If they would have decided to stop using musical instruments altogether after 3,500 years it would have been mentioned. So silence means they didn't have a problem with it at all. It probably wasn't a priority issue for them but that doesn't mean that instruments weren't allowed.

So really the question is "why did the predominantly gentile church not mention instruments in a written document until 800 AD?" Only the Roman priesthood was able to read a bible until Tyndale and the printing press; so we would have to ask them.

Maybe because stringed instruments were handcrafted one at a time which means they were rare and expensive. Christians who could play them and/or write worship music were certainly even rarer.



Praise Him with cymbals! Praise Him with the dance! Praise Him with the shofar! Praise Him with stringed instruments!

Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!



This has never been banned in worship.

DAISHI
Sep 10th 2006, 07:25 AM
Yup. Coming from a Jewish background, music and dancing has been used in our services.

qbee
Sep 10th 2006, 08:40 AM
I see no where in the bible where God forbid his people to worship with musical instruments
If one has this conviction then they should follow it but not place it on all Gods children.

We have the frredom to worship God with all our heart and with all our talents .. be is musical
or not. We cant base this restriction on what is not there or becuase it isnt mentioned in the NT ..

God did not change how we worship only that it no longer is of the flesh such as by law or commanded
but now from our hearts in spirit and truth ... God now honors what is done in faith .. not by law .. or by
some man made rule not even found in scripture .. Christ didnt come to put us under more burdens but to
free us to worship from our hearts with love for God and our fellow man .. Musical instruments in worship
is not forbidden and Paul says we have freedom to worship and follow Christ in faith of our convictions in
the things not forbidden ...

Follow your convictions _ dont place them on others ..
Our relationship and worship of God is personal :hug: and
should not be directed by someone elses conviction.

Worship should be joyful not solemn and not histerical or frenzied but pleasing from the heart with much joy
God is not going to turn away a man who from his heart worships God with his harp or flute etc etc..
Worship is personal and we have a personal relationship with God _ He will look at the mans heart and it wil
be pleasing to God .. That is what God wants our hearts .. not someone else (Man) to delegate how we worship
our personal saviour/God. God has shown us in his word that it is allowed and is pleasing as we see in tha Psalms
and other scriptures. God sisn place more laws upon us as to how to worship except to be from the heart and the
spirit in truth. A mans music offered to God is from the heart and truthful _ word are not necessary God understands.

If it is not addressed in the NT we can find That God finds pleasing in the OT .. We know David and his faith was pleasing to God and he certainly knew how to worship God .. and certainly used insruments to do it .. and to allow the people to hear and praise and worship God through his Psalms. We know God loved David and his faith _ certainly David knew how to worship God in a way that was pleasing .. with dance and song and instruments.. God has never forbidden this _ and I believe he finds it pleasing when a man creates something beautiful and honors God with it. Be it art or music or his talents that God gave him _ We give it all to God. We are not worshipping the instuments _ We are using them to worship God ... Instruments are not idols .. they make a beautiful sound unto the Lord .. Even the angels in heaven are menationed playing harps ..

I think in revelations Babylon is struck down and will no longer have the joy of worshipping God. they will play no instruments and the voice of Christ (bridegroom) or the church (Bride) will no longer be found in her .. It is a judgement .. and is not against Christs church :) _ Christs church will have joy and instruments and light and the voice of the bride and groom ..:hug:

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 12:06 PM
I think we worship in Spirit and Truth when we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and when we worship God in Truth....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Worship is about our hearts and souls crying out to God in love and adoration. It is not about adhering to rigid, man-made dogma.
WG, you know what spirit is, what about truth?

What does the scripture say "truth" is?

John 17:17

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 12:13 PM
In perusing this thread, on thing seems to be missing... that being...

What is worship anyway?

Who is it for? Then when are we to? Then where do we? Then why? And then maybe lastly... is the How?


I think -- as WG has eluded... if we seek to know the reasoning of the who, whats... wheres... whens... and whys --- the hows will naturally flow... from the heart of worship...

And for my 2cents, worship is from the heart, and from God -- who has redeemed me and dwells within me...through my knowing and living in His word and His word Living in me... and I worship Him in obedience and submission...


For God's Glory...

Teke
Sep 10th 2006, 12:23 PM
I came OUT of denominationalism, and am just as sure that I am on the Lord's path.

Blessings in Christ,

matt


Me too. Now you just need to come out of religion and into THE Church. (Orthodoxy);)

But back topic. While I see everyone protesting, I see no one presenting evidence of the use of instruments in the NT. Nor do I see anyone presenting evidence that any others than the clergy/priests/Levites used them in corporate worship in the OT, and that being related to sacrifices.
So I see no precedence for them.:P

And this thread has turned to a pejorative of your religion.:(

Teke
Sep 10th 2006, 12:38 PM
In perusing this thread, on thing seems to be missing... that being...

What is worship anyway?

Who is it for? Then when are we to? Then where do we? Then why? And then maybe lastly... is the How?


I think -- as WG has eluded... if we seek to know the reasoning of the who, whats... wheres... whens... and whys --- the hows will naturally flow... from the heart of worship...

And for my 2cents, worship is from the heart, and from God -- who has redeemed me and dwells within me...through my knowing and living in His word and His word Living in me... and I worship Him in obedience and submission...


For God's Glory...


Here are the 6 words used synonymously for woship in the NT.



The following six Greek words are rendered "worship" in the A.V.

1. proskuneo = to prostrate one's self (in reverence), do homage. Used, therefore, of the act of worship.

2. sebomai = to revere, to feel awe. Used, therefore, of the inward feelings (as No. 1 is of the outward act).

3. sebazomai = to be shy, or timid at doing anything. Occurs only in Rom. 1:25.

4. lateuo = to serve in official service (for hire, or reward). Used of serving God in the externals of His worship.

5. eusebeo = to be pious or devout towards any one; to act with reverence, respect, and honour.

6. therapeuo = to wait upon, minister to (as a doctor does); hence = to heal; to render voluntary service and attendance. Thus differing from No. 4.

roadrunner570
Sep 10th 2006, 12:47 PM
I see a lot of "religion" in this thread.

Ro 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
Ro 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Ro 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Ro 12:4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,
Ro 12:5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
Ro 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
Ro 12:7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;
Ro 12:8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

I posted this whole passsage not just the one verse about worship. We are to worship the Lord in ALL we do. He has given us different gifts, talents, etc. I would imagine many worship in different ways. I don't see where we get that it is sin to worship God with instruments. Especially if a person has been blessed with musical gifts FROM GOD, but he can't use them in church?

But since we are looking for NT commands on music in worship, lets look at what else the NT doesn't command we do in church.

1.) Does not tell us to go build church buildings, the early church met in homes.

2.) does not tell us to worship on Sunday

3.) does not tell us to have altars at the front of the church

4.) does not tell us to have pulpits in church

6.) does not tell us to have "altar calls"

7.) does not tell us to have potluck dinners at church

8.) does not tell us to engage in building projects for, with and by the church

I can think of a few more, but I hope we get my point. I"m not sure how we can form a doctrine on what the Bible or NT DOESN"T say.

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 10th 2006, 12:52 PM
In perusing this thread, on thing seems to be missing... that being...

What is worship anyway?

Who is it for? Then when are we to? Then where do we? Then why? And then maybe lastly... is the How?


I think -- as WG has eluded... if we seek to know the reasoning of the who, whats... wheres... whens... and whys --- the hows will naturally flow... from the heart of worship...

And for my 2cents, worship is from the heart, and from God -- who has redeemed me and dwells within me...through my knowing and living in His word and His word Living in me... and I worship Him in obedience and submission...


For God's Glory...


Adding another cent to my above 2... In hoping folks are considering that worship and praise are not the same thing... and I'd even like to suggest that one cannot praise before they have submit in worship.

For God's Glory...

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 02:05 PM
<with snips>

I see no where in the bible where God forbid his people to worship with musical instruments

If one has this conviction then they should follow it but not place it on all Gods children.

We cant base this restriction on what is not there or becuase it isnt mentioned in the NT ..

Follow your convictions _ dont place them on others ..
Our relationship and worship of God is personal :hug: and
should not be directed by someone elses conviction.



Shalom! Well said!

I wanted to say again that these sentiments are the ones that I too have against this argument coming from the Church of Christ. Not whether it is right or wrong to use instruments, for I read in my Bible that there is no commandment against using instruments, so I have assurance this is not a sin.


Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+12#f1) by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+12#f2) 2 Do not be conformed to this world, [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+12#f3) but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

BUT, I won't insist that everyone must use instruments in worship, because that would violate the grace of G-d. However, to read that the same grace is not extended to other Believers in Messiah who do not subscribe to the "no instruments" doctrines is so disheartening, and I personally believe it saddens the heart of our L-rd to see this.

I posted Scriptures which say not to judge our brothers or sisters for things they do which are not clearly delineated in Scripture and do not affect salvation. Saying someone is in sin because they are worshipping G-d, but don't do it to YOUR specifications - is judgement.



14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14#f1) that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14#f2) to God.”

12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.


20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. [3] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14#f3) 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Salvation is not dependent upon this issue.

Being pleasing to G-d is not dependent upon this issue.

There are no Biblical COMMANDS that instruments in worship are prohibited.

John 4: 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

As such, this argument of "do it the way we do it" is conviction tuned into dogma and applied as Law to everyone, and judgment of those who do not follow the same convictions something that Paul spoke much about not being guilty of. (see Scriptures above)

Bottom line for me, for those of you who worship G-d with no instruments-
may you enjoy the expression of your faith and worship in Spirit and in Truth and with your whole being! G-d loves a heart fully surrendered in worship! If you use no instruments and feel you are pleasing G-d! Wonderful!! You have the freedom to use voice only in worship and may it be a wonderful offering to our L-rd and equally moving experience for you!

Conversely, for those who use intruments, or drama, or dancing, we also have the freedom as these come from a heart of worship, fully surrendered to glorifying G-d in all we say and do and we pour out our expressions with all that He has given us to worship Him with! May our hearts be filled with worship and may our sacrifices be a sweet incense to Him!

Worship the L-rd! For He alone is worthy of our praise and worship!



~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

uric3
Sep 10th 2006, 02:18 PM
these paragraphs show a horrible misunderstanding of the Tenach.

building an altar and building a Temple are 2 different things. God never changed His mind about not using hewn stones for an altar.

When the temple was built there was an altar out side the holy place and an altar for incense 2nd Chron 26:16 and we see that animals was done at the temple to look at Ezra 3:6 everything that Solomon built was made of hewn stone...


And God never gave circumcision to gentiles since it is a sign of the land covenant of Israel with Abraham and his flesh....the jewish people.

All jews in the New Covenant scriptures maintained circumcision but the Holy Spirit and the Apostles ruled that gentiles would not be required to do this. Galatians is dealing with people who wanted gentiles to become converted into jews...hence the word "Judaizers"

Not only Gentiles but the the Jews as well, when you read Gal its addressed to the whole church it doesn't address it only to Gentiles, so if a Jewish family became Christians their child was not to be circumsized as they was once commanded to do... granted some thought Gentles did need it done because they were so used to it for years. Read the book of Hewbrews a lot of Jews wanted to still have feast, and do the things they were once taught and the writter of Hebrews rebukes them letting them know they are under a better testament and those things are done away with... So granted it may have started like that but it was to the whole Church. What was commanded of Gentiles was commanded of Jews as well we all live under the same testament now. Part of the NT isn't for Jews only and another for Genitles only it all applies so even Jews were not to circumsize for those reasons.



You can't argue from silence because silence is proof that the premise is flawed.

The original jewish assembly would have had no qualms about using instruments if they had a musician in their congregation who owned one and could play it. Since most of the original jewish assembly of Jerusalem still went to the Temple where there was a huge musical worship service, when they would meet apart from that as a congregation it was for fellowship or study of the law and the prophets.

If they would have decided to stop using musical instruments altogether after 3,500 years it would have been mentioned. So silence means they didn't have a problem with it at all. It probably wasn't a priority issue for them but that doesn't mean that instruments weren't allowed.

So really the question is "why did the predominantly gentile church not mention instruments in a written document until 800 AD?" Only the Roman priesthood was able to read a bible until Tyndale and the printing press; so we would have to ask them.

Maybe because stringed instruments were handcrafted one at a time which means they were rare and expensive. Christians who could play them and/or write worship music were certainly even rarer.



Praise Him with cymbals! Praise Him with the dance! Praise Him with the shofar! Praise Him with stringed instruments!

Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!



This has never been banned in worship.


Once again another aguement from the OT which we are no longer under, we know what we are to do from the NT from example, nessary inference or command. We are commanded to sing in the NT and that only... there is no example, command, nor is it infered that the NT church used them. So without scriptual authority under the NT we should abstain from them. If they were needed I am sure the church would have gotten some without a problem or made their own. If it was something God wanted I would say without a doubt they would have done it regardless of the cost I mean look just to worship correctly they suffered so much by the hands of the Jews and Romans even giving their life to get money for insterments would have been no questions as for people not knowing how to write or play music is invalid as well we can see in Acts 2 along over 3,000 Acts 2:41 lot of Jews converted along with thousands of others to say not a sing one knew how is far fetched.

As for the Roman preist hood having rule over printing there would still have to be a reason behind it and you would better believe if it was something the church was to do they would have heeded God before man and you would have had cases were people would have died for trying to do the truth... yet you don't have that... also when sites have been found where early NT christians met before and after the fall of Roman how come nothing has been found giving us a hint that it was to be done... because they didn't do it... why because it wasn't commanded in the NT the OT was a shadow of things to come... and a lot of things changed insterments being one of them. Also as Teke pointed out even in the OT you don't see them doing it in a corprate assembly.

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 02:49 PM
Once again another aguement from the OT which we are no longer under, we know what we are to do from the NT from example, nessary inference or command.

Shalom Uric,

Actually no, we don't know that as fact, but it is what you are using as your foundation for this argument.

There is no Scriptural basis for that argument.

If the practice of using instruments was so abhorrent to our Heavenly Father, and so important for us to know, I beleve He would have made it known to us, clearly, not by inference or silence.

1) NO WHERE in Scripture does it ever say that if there is no example of a practice it is condemned.

2) NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that Scripture infers a command by its silence on a subject.

This makes all the assertations about what is and what isn't "proper", "authorized" etc., simply assumption and conviction, which everyone is entitled to in their personal walk with G-d.

However, it also blaringly shows that the assertion that those who do NOT adhere to the same convictions are wrong, is simply error, as sincere as it may be. If the Bible isn't saying it is wrong to worship with instruments - it isn't. Period. It may not be what someone deems as the right way and they are entitled to walk in thier convictions, but drop the other part (about those who disagree being in sin and displeasing to G-d) and we have truth! :hug:

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Teke
Sep 10th 2006, 08:05 PM
Shalom Uric,

Actually no, we don't know that as fact, but it is what you are using as your foundation for this argument.

There is no Scriptural basis for that argument.

If the practice of using instruments was so abhorrent to our Heavenly Father, and so important for us to know, I beleve He would have made it known to us, clearly, not by inference or silence.

1) NO WHERE in Scripture does it ever say that if there is no example of a practice it is condemned.

2) NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that Scripture infers a command by its silence on a subject.

This makes all the assertations about what is and what isn't "proper", "authorized" etc., simply assumption and conviction, which everyone is entitled to in their personal walk with G-d.

However, it also blaringly shows that the assertion that those who do NOT adhere to the same convictions are wrong, is simply error, as sincere as it may be. If the Bible isn't saying it is wrong to worship with instruments - it isn't. Period. It may not be what someone deems as the right way and they are entitled to walk in thier convictions, but drop the other part (about those who disagree being in sin and displeasing to G-d) and we have truth! :hug:

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8



The bible is not God or the final authority. The church inspired by the Holy Spirit decides these things. Especially when it isn't clear. So while it may not be a dogma or doctrine to the church. That doesn't mean the church will do it or anything else seeming to understand what is not clear.
But if a church deems it could be seen as sin and displeasing to God, then it is their inspired decision on the matter.

Scripture has been presented on the matter. It speaks for itself. Our personal opinions or preferences do not matter in that.

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 08:16 PM
The bible is not God or the final authority.

Shalom Teke,

I believe and stand for the inerrancy of Divinely-inspired Word of G-d, the Holy Scriptures. I DO believe G-d has spoken through His Word and if He wanted us to know that something was displeasing to Him, He would have used His Word to convey that - not been silent on it. G-d IS the final authority and His Word is directly from Him. He will never speak in conflict with His Word.


But if a church deems it could be seen as sin and displeasing to God, then it is their inspired decision on the matter.
Absolutely! That's what churches (denominations) do. They take Scripture and make decisions for their behavior based upon their understanding and interpretation of it. I do not, in any way, tell anyone who believes that they are "safer" not using instruments in worship that they must! Heavens no! For to do so would be wrong since these Believers answer to G-d for their actions and must do what they believe He is leading them to do (if Scripture is silent on it).

HOWEVER, I take exception to the posts I have seen here where the practice of using intruments in worship by Believers in Messiah is called "sin", "displeasing to G-d",. "not proper", not "authorized" etc., and these are in fact, wrong judgements. This is my reason for objecting to the argument. One Believer's convictions must never be pressed upon another and called commands of G-d or binding.

The bottom line in this discussion is that Scripture has NOT been presented to uphold the foundational argument that if the Scriptures are silent on a subject that is an inferred command against it. The argument and those coming from it cannot stand up as Biblical and binding without Scriptural support and can go no further because the conclusions are the opinions of men, not the commands of G-d.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 08:20 PM
2) NO WHERE in Scripture does it say that Scripture infers a command by its silence on a subject.

That's not quite true. In several places in the Old Testament it was apparent that God was not pleased with the Israelites worship because they did not something that God had not commanded. For example:

Lev 10:1 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them.

Additionally, God commanded that all priests be of the Levite tribe. He didn't have to go through and say, "you shall not get priests from (insert each tribe name until you've gone through them all)" in order to prohibit priests being taken from the other tribes.

Instead, God's command of one tribe, and silence on the others, was a command that in effect prohibited priests from other tribes. Hebrews 7:14, in fact, says Moses said nothing about priests from other tribes, and yet the Israelites understood the command as prohibitive of other tribes.

In the same way, we have a command to sing, not one to play instruments. God's silence on the type of music made by instruments should be prohibitive in the same manner.

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 08:26 PM
That's not quite true. In several places in the Old Testament it was apparent that God was not pleased with the Israelites worship because they did not something that God had not commanded. For example:

Shalom Matt,

I should have been more exact in my wording. I see you are extremely well-versed in debates. I am not so.

Anyway, I thought you ignored the "Old Testament" and its examples applicable to us.
I'm sorry, but you cannot have it both ways concerning Old Testament examples.

No place in the Bible did G-d say he was ever displeased with using musical instruments in worship. He established it and never recinded it. This is the silence that you are taking as a command, but it is not so. This is the direct point.



God's silence on the type of music made by instruments should be prohibitive in the same manner.
Brother, until you can prove that by a command IN Scripture, it is simply man's opinion and conviction, which I respect and honor, but which is NOT binding upon others unless they share that same conviction. It is not a Biblical command since it was established already in Scripture and was never recinded.

Bottom line, since it is not a Biblical command to avoid musical instruments, one who does not believe the Scriptures are saying this is not in sin. And they answer to G-d, not to man's opinion as to what is pleasing, proper and authorized in worship to our G-d.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Teke
Sep 10th 2006, 08:27 PM
Shalom Teke,

I believe and stand for the innerrancy of Inspired Word of G-d, the Holy Scripture. I DO believe G-d has spoken through His Word and if He wanted us to know that something was displeasing to Him, He would have used His Word to convey that - not been silent on it. G-d IS the final authority and His Word is directly from Him. He will never speak in conflict with His Word.

The bottom line in this discussion is that Scripture has NOT been presented to uphold the foundational argument that if the Scriptures are silent on a subject that is an inferred command against it. The argument and those coming from it cannot stand up as Biblical and binding without Scriptural support and can go no further because the conclusions are the opinions of men, not the commands of G-d.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8



We are told to hold to the traditions the Apostles gave us.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


2Th 3:6 ¶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.


The Apostles are our foundation.


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
It doesn't say anything about the law or Torah.


So if we follow their traditions, which can also be by example, then we are following their traditions they gave us. IOW its not in word but by example.

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 08:33 PM
But since we are looking for NT commands on music in worship, lets look at what else the NT doesn't command we do in church.

1.) Does not tell us to go build church buildings, the early church met in homes.

A lot of the misunderstandings in this thread have to do with what things are "incidental" to worship, and what things are "worship" in themselves.

The place or building the church meets in has nothing to do with their worship whatsoever. With singing, however, we are told this is directed to God, and to one another to admonish one another. Big difference.


2.) does not tell us to worship on Sunday

This argument is rather in favor of no instruments, because the same process of determining that Sunday was the day the NT Christians worshipped on, is the same process for understanding that instruments were not used or commanded.


3.) does not tell us to have altars at the front of the church

We don't have an altar.


4.) does not tell us to have pulpits in church

That's another incidental.


6.) does not tell us to have "altar calls"

Since we have no altar, I guess we don't have an altar call either. :D


7.) does not tell us to have potluck dinners at church

Another incidental, not part of worship in the assembly.


8.) does not tell us to engage in building projects for, with and by the church

Another incidental, not part of worship. If it facilitates accomodating a larger number to assemble together for worship, there is nothing wrong with it that I can think of.


I can think of a few more, but I hope we get my point. I"m not sure how we can form a doctrine on what the Bible or NT DOESN"T say.

We're not. The NT commands singing. It does not command instruments. Therefore, to add instruments it to add to the command.

It's that simple.

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 08:36 PM
I don't mean to be short and to the point, but I'm between services of the church today, so I've got to hurry.


Anyway, I thought you ignored the "Old Testament" and its examples applicable to us.
I'm sorry, but you cannot have it both ways concerning Old Testament examples.

Romans 15:4


No place in the Bible did G-d say he was ever displeased with using musical instruments in worship. He established it and never recinded it.

Where did He establish it? I've yet to see this referenced.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 08:38 PM
And can someone please answer this for us:

Why did the reformers reject instrumental music?

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 08:40 PM
The Apostles are our foundation.



Shalom Teke,

MY authority and foundation is G-d alone. His Word, His Spirit. Men are fallible and are NOT my foundation. However, they can be great examples IF they live according to the Word of G-d and according to His purposes.


Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
It doesn't say anything about the law or Torah.

It says JESUS CHRIST Himself being the chief cornerstone. Not man, not apostles, not prophets, but Jesus. The Word of G-d made flesh.



The Word of Life

1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And we are writing these things so that our [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+John+1#f1) joy may be complete.


~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 08:45 PM
The NT commands singing. It does not command instruments. Therefore, to add instruments it to add to the command. It's that simple.

Shalom Brother!

Enjoy your services. I had mine yesterday. Today I rest. :saint:

The BIBLE has many examples of using instruments in worship. I will not repost the Scriptures already posted where the instruments were established. I know you can go back and read them as well as I can copy and paste them. :rolleyes:

So, since the Bible is G-d's Word, from Genesis to Revelation and since G-d established musical instruments already for worship and did not rescind them, then your conviction not to use instruments is that - your personal conviction (and church doctrine).

It's not a command of G-d. It's THAT simple.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 08:51 PM
And can someone please answer this for us:

Why did the reformers reject instrumental music?



Shalom Matt,

And why should we base our walk with G-d on the actions of men and not G-d?

I answer to G-d , not to the Reformers.



Romans 14:5
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.


7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.


10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,


“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+14#f2) to God.”



12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


And before you say that this Scripture talks about food and not worship, please let me remind you that:



2 Timothy 3:16 says:


16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Timothy+3#f2) may be competent, equipped for every good work.





~~In Messiah,

Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 08:54 PM
Shalom Brother!

Enjoy your services. I had mine yesterday. Today I rest. :saint:

The BIBLE commands using instruments in worship. I will not repost the Scriptures already posted where the instruments were established. I know you can go back and read them as well as I can copy and paste them. :rolleyes:

So, since the Bible is G-d's Word, from Genesis to Revelation and since G-d established musical instruments already for worship and did not recind them, then your conviction not to use instruments is that - your personal conviction (and church doctrine).

It's not a command of G-d. It's THAT simple.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
With all due respect, vickilynn, you did not post scriptures in the past where God commanded the use of instruments in the OT. When asked for them, you said you wouldn't do it.

Will you please post them now, or link me to your post where you did?

Thanks, God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 09:02 PM
With all due respect, vickilynn, you did not post scriptures in the past where God commanded the use of instruments in the OT. When asked for them, you said you wouldn't do it.

Will you please post them now, or link me to your post where you did?

Thanks, God bless!


Shalom Matt,

I never said I posted them, I said they had been posted repeatedly in these discussions. But, if you'd like me to re-post them I will. It may take me a few moments to search, copy and paste though.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 09:04 PM
Please do, thanks. I missed that command.

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 09:09 PM
Gotta go. Don'know if I will be able to respond until tomorrow.

God bless you all.

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 09:12 PM
Shalom Brother,
I feel more comfortable saying "established". It was acceptable, proper and pleasing.
It was pleasing to Him in the Bible, and He never said it wasn't. So, there is no Biblical command to stop what He has already established.

I know these (and more!!!) have been posted in these discussions which you are very familiar with. But to accomodate your request... here are just a few examples and instances:


2 Samuel 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord, with songs[1] and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals.


1 Chronicles 13:8
And David and all Israel were rejoicing before God with all their might, with song and lyres and harps and tambourines and cymbals and trumpets.

1 Chronicles 15:16
David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1 Chronicles 15:28
So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, to the sound of the horn, trumpets, and cymbals, and made loud music on harps and lyres.

1 Chronicles 16:5
Asaph was the chief, and second to him were Zechariah, Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, Obed-edom, and Jeiel, who were to play harps and lyres; Asaph was to sound the cymbals,

1 Chronicles 25:1
David Organizes the Musicians
David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was:

1 Chronicles 25:6
They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king.

2 Chronicles 5:12
and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun, their sons and kinsmen, arrayed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, stood east of the altar with 120 priests who were trumpeters;

2 Chronicles 29:25
And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets.

Nehemiah 12:27
Dedication of the Wall
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, with thanksgivings and with singing, with cymbals, harps, and lyres.

Referring to "New Testament" worship:
1 Corinthians 14:7 (Show me 1 Corinthians 14)
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?

Revelation 15:2
And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

Revelation 18:22
and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will be heard in you no more, and a craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more,

~~IN Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Matt14
Sep 10th 2006, 09:13 PM
Shalom Brother,
I believe (if I'm not mistaken) that I said established.
It was pleasing to Him in the Bible, and He never said it wasn't. So, there is no Biblical command to stop what He has already established.

I know these (and more!!!) have been posted in these discussions which you are very familiar with. But to accomodate your request... here are just a few examples and instances:


2 Samuel 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord, with songs[1] and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals.


1 Chronicles 13:8
And David and all Israel were rejoicing before God with all their might, with song and lyres and harps and tambourines and cymbals and trumpets.

1 Chronicles 15:16
David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1 Chronicles 15:28
So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, to the sound of the horn, trumpets, and cymbals, and made loud music on harps and lyres.

1 Chronicles 16:5
Asaph was the chief, and second to him were Zechariah, Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, Obed-edom, and Jeiel, who were to play harps and lyres; Asaph was to sound the cymbals,

1 Chronicles 25:1
David Organizes the Musicians
David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was:

1 Chronicles 25:6
They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king.

2 Chronicles 5:12
and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun, their sons and kinsmen, arrayed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, stood east of the altar with 120 priests who were trumpeters;

2 Chronicles 29:25
And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets.

Nehemiah 12:27
Dedication of the Wall
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, with thanksgivings and with singing, with cymbals, harps, and lyres.

Referring to "New Testament" worship:
1 Corinthians 14:7 (Show me 1 Corinthians 14)
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?

Revelation 15:2
And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

Revelation 18:22
and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will be heard in you no more, and a craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more,

~~IN Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8
Okay, if these are the scriptures you would base music in the worship upon, I will discuss each and every one of them tomorrow, Lord willing.

Gotta go for the evening. God bless.

Vickilynn
Sep 10th 2006, 09:15 PM
Gotta go. Don'know if I will be able to respond until tomorrow.

God bless you all.

Shalom,

That's OK, my fingers are getting tired from typing! LOL!

Gotta go grill out and cook for the family!

G-d bless you too!

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 02:43 PM
Speaking of singing to the Lord, is anyone else always disappointed when the musical part of the worship service is over?

It's so amazing to me because before I was saved, I hated the singing. With a passion!

And now....I could seriously stand there and sing to the Lord for hours and hours and never tire of it. I can't think of anything else on this earth that brings me more joy than singing to the Lord.

ProjectPeter
Sep 11th 2006, 02:49 PM
And just a note to everyone... keep it on topic and things move along much better! :)

Vickilynn
Sep 11th 2006, 02:57 PM
Speaking of singing to the Lord, is anyone else always disappointed when the musical part of the worship service is over?

Shalom!

I too can relate to that experience. Constantly.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 03:07 PM
In the new church we are attending, the singing is led by one guy and his guitar.

At our other church, it was a full choir, piano, organ, orchestra, drums, harps, guitars, bass, electric keyboard, and brass section.....:o (Matt14 would probably pass out! :rofl:)

I have to admit, it was nice just having a simple, pure melody lifted up to God. But that also poses a problem as I sing loud in church, and I've never been noted for my ability to carry a tune. (Okay, my 9 year old did tell me I sang well in the car one day, but I think he might be biased). :blush:

Christinme
Sep 11th 2006, 03:09 PM
Teke,

I don't agree that when the ark was in the temple that they faced east and turned their back to the Ark during worship. Also you have discounted every example I have given you concerning musical instruments being used in the temple (although this is what you asked for) saying that these were celebrations or were part of the sacrifices and not part of the "corporate worship". What in the OT at the temple do you classify as "corporate worship"??? Seems to me that there is nothing in the OT that happened at the temple that would fall under your definition of "corporate worship" so quite obviously there would be no examples of musical instruments being used at the temple during "corporate worship" that would satisfy you.

Christinme
Sep 11th 2006, 03:10 PM
To go backward yet again, just let me remind you that the "holy kiss" was not a part of worship. Christians have examples of teaching and preaching, praying, singing, giving, and partaking of the Lord's supper in the assembly. Kissing is not a part of worship. So no matter how much you'd like to dwell on the kissing, they are not similar events in worship. In fact, using a kiss as a greeting was going on long before Christianity, so Paul was commanding anything new. Instead, he was urging that the greetings--the kiss--be a holy one. So instead of starting or commanding something new, he was instructing them to keep their greetings holy.No where is in the NT does it refer to the assembly of themselves as worship. Where is the idea that worshipping God consists of "teaching and admonishing one another"? Granted we are ALSO instructed to do that, along with instructions to "Greet one another with a holy kiss", but where does the NT define the "teaching and admonishing one another" as worshipping and to "Greet one another with a holy kiss" not to be part of worshipping? It is interesting that the Greek word that is translated as worship is PROSKUNEO ... PROS (toward) plus KUNEO (kiss).

Families kiss each other ... do you give your mother a handshake ... and do you never kiss your father? Are they more family to you then your brothers and sisters in Christ?




I don't agree with you here. When it mentions "esteems one day above the other" this is in reference to worship. It also mentions judging others concerning such things.
No, it was a reference to the observance of festivals, feast days, etc.The observances of festivals and feast days is when those of the OT assembled. Are you saying that doesn't have anything to do with worship??? The NT assembly concerns worshipping and the OT assembly didn't???

Vickilynn
Sep 11th 2006, 03:10 PM
Shalom Whispering Grace,

In our church we have a full band (drums, electric guitars, bass, mandolin, fiddles, keyboards, hammer dulcimers, flutes, percussion) and I tell you, for me, it adds SO much to the worship experience.

We also have times of no music singing, and times of just guitar and voice, but, I love those beautiful worship times filled with music and voice lifted to worship our King!~ (and I sing loud too!) I'm also in the Worship Choir so I have to try to stay on key! LOL!

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 03:38 PM
Just asking again for clarification...

Is worshipping and praising the same thing? [With or without music]

I have not read the entire thread, but if I were to have an opinion, I lean towards the thought that worship has an individual characteristic to it, whether alone within your prayer closet or within a body of believers.

As I've posted on this subject before, there are precise ways God has prescribed within worship, ie whereas Moses was given instruction regarding perfumes and offerings and such...

Many churches use music for the wrong reasoning, IMO -- to motivate and to stimulate the body... as worship and to worship? Whereas, I see a biblical pattern that one needs to humble oneself to worship, through self-examination and confession and humble repentance -- and when time has been fulfilled, moves towards rejoicing in praise. This is were I see the place of corporate music...as praise after worship...

But this pattern is not common today within the US churches, even my own church. Many say that good music puts them in the right frame of mind to worship God... if so, then where does the word fit in? So if this is to Matt's point of the thread, I tend to agree with his observations.


For God's Glory...

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 03:47 PM
Just asking again for clarification...

Is worshipping and praising the same thing? [With or without music]

I have not read the entire thread, but if I were to have an opinion, I lean towards the thought that worship has an individual characteristic to it, whether alone within your prayer closet or within a body of believers.

As I've posted on this subject before, there are precise ways God has prescribed within worship, ie whereas Moses was given instruction regarding perfumes and offerings and such...

Many churches use music for the wrong reasoning, IMO -- to motivate and to stimulate the body... as worship and to worship? Whereas, I see a biblical pattern that one needs to humble oneself to worship, through self-examination and confession and humble repentance -- and when time has been fulfilled, moves towards rejoicing in praise. This is were I see the place of corporate music...as praise after worship...

But this pattern is not common today within the US churches, even my own church. Many say that good music puts them in the right frame of mind to worship God... if so, then where does the word fit in? So if this is to Matt's point of the thread, I tend to agree with his observations.


For God's Glory...

I think Matt's point is that instruments are not mentioned in the NT in regard to worship and are therefore prohibited for use in church.

And what is worship? I believe that praise through music falls under the umbrella of what worship is. Praise through music and singing is worship, in my opinion, but it's not all of what worship is.

Worship, to me, is exalting God above all else, giving to Him and loving Him sacrificially, offering Him praise and thanksgiving, humbling ourselves before Him, praying, learning and growing through His Word....to name a few things.

And the preaching of the Word has always been the main part of the worship service at churches I have attended.

Teke
Sep 11th 2006, 03:48 PM
Teke,

I don't agree that when the Ark was in the temple that they faced east and turned their back to the Ark during worship.

I didn't say they did. The Ark and the people would be facing east from where the Messiah was to come. I gave you scripture on this.



Also you have discounted every example I have given you concerning musical instruments being used in the temple (although this is what you asked for) saying that these were celebrations or were part of the sacrifices and not part of the "corporate worship". What in the OT at the temple do you classify as "corporate worship"??? Seems to me that there is nothing in the OT that happened at the temple that would fall under your definition of "corporate worship" so quite obviously there would be no examples of musical instruments being used at the temple during "corporate worship" that would satisfy you.


I plainly showed you where the instruments were used by the Levites in relation to sacrifices in corporate worship. We no longer practice sacrifices in this manner.

Now if you would show me where instruments were used by everyone in corporate worship in the temple, then that would be another thing.

And I've already asked this question of those using OT scripture to justify the use of instruments. But I'll ask again. What is your scriptural reference for anyone using them in corporate worship, especially in the Church, that is not in reference to OT sacrificial practices?

But if a temple uses instruments as commanded in the OT, then where are their Levites to play them?

There are no scriptures justifying anyone to worship however the feel like it, when in an ordered assembly. I mean really. Show me scripture that says, "do whatever you like in the assembly of the saints"......or 'express your talents or gifts in the assembly".....it is not there.

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 04:03 PM
By the way, I agree that the music in worship is not for our own pleasure or entertainment but is wholly for the Lord. That's why I am fine with one guitar or a whole ensemble....because it's not for our personal enjoyment. And ultimately it's not the noise we make outwardly but the song of our hearts that truly matters.

Redeemed by Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 04:05 PM
I think Matt's point is that instruments are not mentioned in the NT in regard to worship and are therefore prohibited for use in church.

Gotcha



And what is worship? I believe that praise through music falls under the umbrella of what worship is. Praise through music and singing is worship, in my opinion, but it's not all of what worship is.

Worship, to me, is exalting God above all else, giving to Him and loving Him sacrificially, offering Him praise and thanksgiving, humbling ourselves before Him, learning and growing through His Word....to name a few things.

The underlined words... exalting and praising and thanksgiving would be elements of praise to me. Worship is more a matter of the submission, IMO. I can praise my child for their good behavior or the A they get on the test, but I don't worship them in the process. For worship is only for God, but we can praise toward another... secular folks praise all the time... just look at sports for an example.

So...

Worship is submission : Praise is extolling or telling of another's virtues.




And the preaching of the Word has always been the main part of the worship service at churches I have attended.

Amen...


How many folks have heard their service called "A Praise and Worship Service"? I know I may be nitpicking, but if there is unconfessed sin within our life, shouldn't we confess this before we enter into praising Him? So shouldn't this service be called: "Confession-Repentance-Worship-Praise Service" as the progression should normally flow... :lol: [Please folks... this is just rhetorical in nature and does not demand a follow-up]

For God's Glory...

Vickilynn
Sep 11th 2006, 04:07 PM
Just asking again for clarification...

Is worshipping and praising the same thing? [With or without music]

Shalom!


Worship is honor and adoration directed to God. The New Testament uses several words for worship. Two of them particularly are noteworthy. The first is proskuneo, a commonly used term that literally means "to kiss toward," "to kiss the hand," or "to bow down." It is the word for worship used to signify humble adoration. The second word is latreuo, which suggests rendering honor, or paying homage.

Worship to my understanding as G-d gives, is simply that definition above, with or without music. In my life, I use all He has given me and in my case, I use music most, but not all, times.


Webster defines the word praise as to say good things about and it is synonymous to words such as admire, commend, extol, honor, and worship. A definition of Christian praise is the joyful thanking and adoring of God, the celebration of His goodness and grace.1 This simply implies that the act of praising is rightfully due to God alone.

Praise is separate, but can be a part of worship. In my relationship with Jesus, praise usually (but not always) comes before worship as worship is deeper.

The Word is an essential part of our corporate gatherings as well. I don't quite know what you're asking though.


Many churches use music for the wrong reasoning<snip> That should not be our motivation for NOT doing what WE believe G-d is calling us to. Just because some do it wrong, does not not make IT wrong. We each stand before G-d and are accountable for our heart motives and our actions.

Again, my stand is that if one CHOOSES to worship without music, that is perfectly fine. However, when they take that choice and make a command for others, it is error.

Again, as for the prescription of proper worship, OT establishment is applicable for us today. But no one is saying we MUST, only that since it is in the Bible for us an example, and has not been commanded against, it is acceptable for us today.

As for the Levites, the Scriptures say:

1 Peter 2: 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 04:10 PM
Here is Merriam Webster's definition of worship, FWIW.

Main Entry: 2worship
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -shipped also -shiped; -ship·ping also -ship·ing
transitive verb
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion <a celebrity worshipped by her fans>
intransitive verb : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship
synonym see REVERE (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/revere)
- wor·ship·per or wor·ship·er noun

Christinme
Sep 11th 2006, 04:34 PM
The Ark and the people would be facing east from where the Messiah was to come. I gave you scripture on this.I guess you are referring to this:


1 Chron. 9:18 (kings gate east, from palace to temple), verse 23 shows its the gates of the Lord. In the NT the Church looks and waits for His return, and Jesus said in Matt. 24:27 that He comes from the east, as the "lightning flashes from the east to the west".I don't agree that this shows anything of the such. The ark was located in the west end of the temple, if they faced east they would have their backs to the ark.



I plainly showed you where the instruments were used by the Levites in relation to sacrifices in corporate worship. We no longer practice sacrifices in this manner.

Now if you would show me where instruments were used by everyone in corporate worship in the temple, then that would be another thing.AGAIN ... corporate worship in the temple centered around the sacrifices ... so OBVIOUSLY ... the use of musical instruments that occurred would be associated with the sacrifices ...

I really have no more to say to you concerning this. I'm just making it clear that I do not agree with what you are saying concerning these things. So if you make further claims to what you have proven/shown using scripture and I don't respond it should not be taken as agreement with you on my part.

Toolman
Sep 11th 2006, 04:47 PM
Matt,

I know you are taking alot of questions here but here are mine when you can get to them:

1) Why does the Church of Christ not use wine in observing the Lord's supper when scripture and Church history are quite clear that the 1st century church did use wine.

If man's wisdom and inventions (grape juice was invented by Thomas Welch in 1869) are to be excluded from corporate worship, this seems an area where the COC ignores scripture and church history to follow man's wisdom.

2) If musical instruments are unauthorized by scripture then can you explain the use of hymnals and indoor baptistries. I cannot find a single instance of either of these in the scripture or an authorization to use them, yet I have never visited a COC that did not have both.

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 06:58 PM
The underlined words... exalting and praising and thanksgiving would be elements of praise to me. Worship is more a matter of the submission, IMO. I can praise my child for their good behavior or the A they get on the test, but I don't worship them in the process. For worship is only for God, but we can praise toward another... secular folks praise all the time... just look at sports for an example.

So...

Worship is submission : Praise is extolling or telling of another's virtues.

This is a good point, RbG. Worship IS only for God.

But....if worship = submission, I am commanded by Scripture to submit to my husband.

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 07:03 PM
Matt,

I know you are taking alot of questions here but here are mine when you can get to them:

1) Why does the Church of Christ not use wine in observing the Lord's supper when scripture and Church history are quite clear that the 1st century church did use wine.

If man's wisdom and inventions (grape juice was invented by Thomas Welch in 1869) are to be excluded from corporate worship, this seems an area where the COC ignores scripture and church history to follow man's wisdom.

2) If musical instruments are unauthorized by scripture then can you explain the use of hymnals and indoor baptistries. I cannot find a single instance of either of these in the scripture or an authorization to use them, yet I have never visited a COC that did not have both.

Good questions, TM. :)

Just an aside, I went to a baptism ceremony yesterday in our nice, tidy, air-conditioned chapel....the same one where I was baptized last year (and that still ranks as one of the greatest moments of my life!).

But I've got to tell you.....at my father's church, they do their baptisms the ol' fashioned way down in a river. And there is just something so awesome about everyone gathering down by the river, signing hymns, and witnessing baptisms!

(Okay, I admit, I was grateful for our clean, cootie-free bapistry as all of the people were getting dunked in the river, but it was still an awesome experience!)

Ta-An
Sep 11th 2006, 08:11 PM
Pardon my late entry into this thread, I have read some, but not all.....

Matt14. What do you say about these verses?? I do know you prefer the KJV< so I'll quote the KJV and also the BBE that I use.

KJV:Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


BBE Revelation15:2 And I saw a sea which seemed like glass mixed with fire; and those who had overcome the beast and his image and the number of his name, were in their places by the sea of glass, with God's instruments of music in their hands.

3 And they give the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and full of wonder are your works, O Lord God, Ruler of all; true and full of righteousness are your ways, eternal King.

Now, you are aware that the division of the verses came after the Bible was written, so it actually reads like this: .... with God's instruments of music (harps) in their hands, they sang the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb,

Now you can surely agree with me that this song in heaven was a worship to G_d?? useing song with instruments :idea: If it is allowed in heaven, why not NT also.... as we see in Psalm 150 that music compliment the song in worship .

Ta-An
Sep 11th 2006, 08:22 PM
Just asking again for clarification...

Is worshipping and praising the same thing? [With or without music]

...

Praise enjoys God,
Worship esteems Him.
Praise acclaims Him,
Worship beholds Him.
Praise lifts Him,
Worship bows.
Praise lauds,
Worship loves.
Praise celebrates,
Worship humbly revers.
Praise addressed God,
Worship waits on God.
Praise dances,
Worship removes shoes for holy ground.
Praise extols God for what He has done,
Worship extols Him for who He is.
Praise lifts us to heavenly places,
Worship lifts God to His rightfull place the throne.
Praise says,"Praise the Lord",
Worship says, "He is Lord".
Praise is grateful for heirship to the throne,
Worship lays crowns at His feet.
Praise creates the atmosphere for the presence of the Lord,
Worship is in the presence of the Lord,
Praise is an act of faith,
Worship is a necessity.

E.Charlotte Baker.

Toolman
Sep 11th 2006, 08:23 PM
Pardon my late entry into this thread, I have read some, but not all.....

Matt14. What do you say about these verses?? I do know you prefer the KJV< so I'll quote the KJV and also the BBE that I use.

KJV:Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


BBE Revelation15:2 And I saw a sea which seemed like glass mixed with fire; and those who had overcome the beast and his image and the number of his name, were in their places by the sea of glass, with God's instruments of music in their hands.

3 And they give the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and full of wonder are your works, O Lord God, Ruler of all; true and full of righteousness are your ways, eternal King.

Now, you are aware that the division of the verses came after the Bible was written, so it actually reads like this: .... with God's instruments of music (harps) in their hands, they sang the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb,

Now you can surely agree with me that this song in heaven was a worship to G_d?? useing song with instruments :idea: If it is allowed in heaven, why not NT also.... as we see in Psalm 150 that music compliment the song in worship .

Matt responded to those verses here:

In regard to Revelation, since Revelation is apocalyptic literature and is full of symbols, we cannot be sure about instrumens in heaven. Aside from that, since the instruments were in heaven and not on earth, we certainly cannot be sure that is directive or example for worship of God on earth.

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=945517&postcount=87

Ta-An
Sep 11th 2006, 08:32 PM
Matt responded to those verses here:Okay Thank you Toolman...I did not see that post...

I however do not agree with Matt14 on his answer... why will worship with instruments in heaven be allowed and not on earth :confused ...why would it even be mentioned :hmm:


When asking a question, you can not choose not to accept the validity of the answer :eek:

Ta-An
Sep 11th 2006, 08:46 PM
As for the OT examples, I would say that since we are under a different covenant, and the worship of the OT was full of type and shadow, that instruments have gone theway of the temple, ie physical symbols giving way to spiritual.
Different as in "Another but the same"

The NT is added onto the OT, it does not replace the OT :idea:

Whispering Grace
Sep 11th 2006, 08:53 PM
Praise enjoys God,
Worship esteems Him.
Praise acclaims Him,
Worship beholds Him.
Praise lifts Him,
Worship bows.
Praise lauds,
Worship loves.
Praise celebrates,
Worship humbly revers.
Praise addressed God,
Worship waits on God.
Praise dances,
Worship removes shoes for holy ground.
Praise extols God for what He has done,
Worship extols Him for who He is.
Praise lifts us to heavenly places,
Worship lifts God to His rightfull place the throne.
Praise says,"Praise the Lord",
Worship says, "He is Lord".
Praise is grateful for heirship to the throne,
Worship lays crowns at His feet.
Praise creates the atmosphere for the presence of the Lord,
Worship is in the presence of the Lord,
Praise is an act of faith,
Worship is a necessity.

E.Charlotte Baker.

Nice list.

One thing I know for certain is that we are to:

Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. Hebrews 13:15


We are to continually offer our praises up to God. That's no small thing!

Toolman
Sep 11th 2006, 08:58 PM
For those who are interested :) what we are discussing is usually called the

Regulative principle of worship and the Normative principle of worship

Regulative principle of worship dictates that corporate worship of God should include only those elements that are authorized in scripture and God has established, in scripture, all that He requires for worship and anything added is restricted from corporate worship.

Normative principle of worship dictates that anything that is not restricted by scripture is allowed as long as it is agreeable with the practices of the Church.

FWIW.

Ta-An
Sep 11th 2006, 09:11 PM
Thank you Toolman,

I see the highest form of worship to be obedient to G_d.

So what is worship??
Something you do in spirit and in truth..... How do you do that ??? :hmm:

So may I use an instrument in my worship of G_d?? Singing in church is not nessesarily worship, it can be praise... but singing is a way in which I express my worship to G_d... So I can use an instrument in expressing my worship to Him...as in useing the talent He has given me to serve Him with.

Kinginsano
Sep 12th 2006, 04:52 PM
There are lots of images in Revelation that may or may not be literal. But, as you pointed out, what is happening in heaven in relation to worship is not necessarily commanded on earth.

hey matt i have been thinking on this issue alot!. im coming at yee bud with some stuff, but here is my reponse to that statement directly above there.

ever hear of something called the 'lords prayer'?

9"(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23292L))Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10'(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293M))Your kingdom come
(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293N))Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11'(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23294O))Give us this day our daily bread.
12'And (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23295P))forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23296Q))deliver us from (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23296R))evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
14"(S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23297S))For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15"But (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23298T))if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


just a thought.

God bless and i cant wait to hit this topic for real.

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 05:45 PM
Hi vickilynn, sorry it’s taken a little time to respond, weekends are really busy for me. Monday is my off day, but I had my plate full. I have some time now, so Lord willing I will respond to all posts directed toward me.


I feel more comfortable saying "established". It was acceptable, proper and pleasing.
It was pleasing to Him in the Bible, and He never said it wasn't. So, there is no Biblical command to stop what He has already established.

But where did He establish it? Where does the Word say it was pleasing to Him?



2 Samuel 6:5
And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord, with songs[1] and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals.


1 Chronicles 13:8
And David and all Israel were rejoicing before God with all their might, with song and lyres and harps and tambourines and cymbals and trumpets.

1 Chronicles 15:16
David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1 Chronicles 15:28
So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, to the sound of the horn, trumpets, and cymbals, and made loud music on harps and lyres.

1 Chronicles 16:5
Asaph was the chief, and second to him were Zechariah, Jeiel, Shemiramoth, Jehiel, Mattithiah, Eliab, Benaiah, Obed-edom, and Jeiel, who were to play harps and lyres; Asaph was to sound the cymbals,

1 Chronicles 25:1
David Organizes the Musicians
David and the chiefs of the service also set apart for the service the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who prophesied with lyres, with harps, and with cymbals. The list of those who did the work and of their duties was:

1 Chronicles 25:6
They were all under the direction of their father in the music in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres for the service of the house of God. Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman were under the order of the king.

2 Chronicles 5:12
and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun, their sons and kinsmen, arrayed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, stood east of the altar with 120 priests who were trumpeters;

2 Chronicles 29:25
And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets.

Every one of these scriptures refer to basically the same thing: David innovated musical worship in connection with the temple. These are all from the same time period. It is interesting that there are few other scriptures of instrumental worship, except during this period. And, I still do not see a command from God to use the instrument. Therefore, if you say these scriptures authorize instrumental music by example, I would agree, but only under the Old Testament dispensation. But, keep in mind that you and others have rejected the use of examples as directing our worship.

Also note that only the Levites were involved in most of the playing of musical instruments. If you live by this same understanding today, does your entire congregation (since we are all priests under the new covenant) play an instrument at the same time? Or only a select few?


Nehemiah 12:27
Dedication of the Wall
And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites in all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem to celebrate the dedication with gladness, with thanksgivings and with singing, with cymbals, harps, and lyres.

Was this corporate temple worship, or more of a secular, state function?


Referring to "New Testament" worship:
1 Corinthians 14:7 (Show me 1 Corinthians 14)
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played?

This has absolutely no relationship to the worship. Paul is merely making a point that one cannot discern a tune from a lifeless musical instrument unless it has a distinction in tones. He is not saying the instruments were used in worship. In fact, the next verse shows this is true:

1Co 14:7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?
1Co 14:8 For if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?


Revelation 15:2
And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

This is the closest the New Testament gets to a Christian playing an instrument. But note several things. First, note that many, many things in Revelation are symbols, not to be taken literally. It’s not exactly crystal clear that these were actual, literal harps. Second, note that these harps are “of God,” meaning that these Christians received their harps in heaven. They certainly did not bring them from the earth. Third, note the simple fact that all this is taking place in heaven, not on earth.


Revelation 18:22
and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will be heard in you no more, and a craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more,

In context, this passage has nothing to do with worship, but rather that after Babylon is thrown down (v. 21), the sound of joyful music will not be heard in her anymore, neither craftsmen, etc. This is really far from having to do with worship.

In summary, though there are passages that speak of musical instruments in temple worship, and harps which may or may not be literal harps in heaven, [b]there is not one single instance of a Christian playing a musical instrument in New Testament worship upon the earth.

Kinginsano
Sep 12th 2006, 05:46 PM
oh oh oh oh oh
just thought of something


by your standards matt14 then if a man is born mute he can not worship could he?

okay enough messing around trying to read through all 200+ posts before i truely jump in here..

God Bless

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 05:46 PM
No where is in the NT does it refer to the assembly of themselves as worship.

In 1 Cor. 14:23-26 we see the assembly being worship time.


Where is the idea that worshipping God consists of "teaching and admonishing one another"?

Worship in song is both directed toward God, and teaching and admonishing one another, Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16.


It is interesting that the Greek word that is translated as worship is PROSKUNEO ... PROS (toward) plus KUNEO (kiss).

There are lots of compound words in Greek (and any language) that do not carry the exact meaning of their component parts. Do I remember that you speak some German, or am I mistaken? Surely you are familiar with the concept of compound words.

PROSKUNEO carries the meaning of being prostrate before someone or something, like a dog licking his master’s feet, as Strong’s terms it. It has nothing to do with the “holy kiss” you keep going back to.


The observances of festivals and feast days is when those of the OT assembled. Are you saying that doesn't have anything to do with worship??? The NT assembly concerns worshipping and the OT assembly didn't???

After faith came and we no longer stand under a tutor (Gal. 3), the keeping of these feasts and Sabbaths were no longer required. Paul is saying that we shouldn’t judge one another if a person decides to keep the feast days. Again, has nothing to do with NT worship.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 05:47 PM
Hey Toolman, good questions!


1) Why does the Church of Christ not use wine in observing the Lord's supper when scripture and Church history are quite clear that the 1st century church did use wine.

If man's wisdom and inventions (grape juice was invented by Thomas Welch in 1869) are to be excluded from corporate worship, this seems an area where the COC ignores scripture and church history to follow man's wisdom.

Actually, there are some who do. But that point aside, the example would be “fruit of the vine.” Although you and I have had this conversation before, and it’s an involved one, not all scholars and historians would agree that all “fruit of the vine” was alcoholic. Certainly, even alcoholic wine in the first century contained a considerably lower alcohol content than today’s wines (what are they today, 17%? 7%?).

Since drinking grape juice still qualifies as “fruit of the vine,” most congregations use unfermented juice. Do you disagree that grape juice is still “fruit of the vine?” When the grapes are first pressed, is it still “fruit of the vine,” or is it something else until it ferments?

I think the alcohol content is optional, since I believe it’s still fruit of the vine when it is first squeezed.

Anyway, anther issue is the example before men. In the United States, drinking alcohol has come to be looked down upon for followers of Christ, and therefore may create a stumbling block for others. Someone has to go to the liquor store to get the wine, you know? Anyway, I think this is a secondary argument, but just one that some refer to. I think my first reason stated above is the correct one.


2) If musical instruments are unauthorized by scripture then can you explain the use of hymnals and indoor baptistries. I cannot find a single instance of either of these in the scripture or an authorization to use them, yet I have never visited a COC that did not have both.

It’s the idea of the “expedient.” We are commanded to sing. Hymnals aid in this so everyone knows the words, microphones amplify the voice of the song leader so everyone can know when to start and end. These are aids to singing. But when an instrument is added, it is no longer vocal music, but becomes a different kind of music, vocal plus instrumental. Even the scriptures make a distinction between the two.

Carrying on with that example, we are told to baptize to make disciples, Matt. 28:19. Having water available is an expedient, an aid to accomplishing that. It does not hinder or alter the command.

Does this answer help? We can talk more about this, if what I wrote is not clear. Sometimes I think I’m being clear, and I’m really not!

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 05:49 PM
Okay Thank you Toolman...I did not see that post...

I however do not agree with Matt14 on his answer... why will worship with instruments in heaven be allowed and not on earth :confused ...why would it even be mentioned :hmm:


When asking a question, you can not choose not to accept the validity of the answer :eek:
I'll answer your question with another question:

If worship with instruments was desired on earth, why are there no NT examples of instruments being used?

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 05:59 PM
hey matt i have been thinking on this issue alot!.

That's great! It's an interesting subject. Even if you don't agree on instruments, there is a lot of interesting things to discuss on the subject.


im coming at yee bud with some stuff, but here is my reponse to that statement directly above there.

ever hear of something called the 'lords prayer'?

9"(L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23292L))Pray, then, in this way:
'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10'(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293M))Your kingdom come
(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293N))Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11'(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23294O))Give us this day our daily bread.
12'And (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23295P))forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but (Q (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23296Q))deliver us from (R (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23296R))evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
14"(S (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23297S))For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15"But (T (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23298T))if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


just a thought.

How do you propose that the Lord's prayer applies to instruments of music in the worship?

Are you implying that since Jesus prayed for God's will to be done on earth as it was in heaven, that somehow that means we should play harps in worship? (ie as in Rev. 15:2).

This would be a shaky proposition at best. For instance, Jesus says in heaven we will neither marry or be given in marriage (Matt. 22:30), which is something that will be in heaven, but that certainly doesn't cancel God's will that man and woman be united in marriage to be one flesh here on earth (Matt. 19:6).

Good thought, but I don't think that angle works. :)

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 06:02 PM
oh oh oh oh oh
just thought of something


by your standards matt14 then if a man is born mute he can not worship could he?

okay enough messing around trying to read through all 200+ posts before i truely jump in here..

God Bless
Not sure what that has to do with instruments in worship. I could just as easily turn it around and ask, can a man with no limbs (cannot play an instrument) worship?

Kinginsano
Sep 12th 2006, 06:07 PM
of course! he could worship, there are many ways to worship where as you are saying there is only one way, vocally. so can a mute man worship or has God forsaken him in that arena??

Kinginsano
Sep 12th 2006, 06:11 PM
This would be a shaky proposition at best. For instance, Jesus says in heaven we will neither marry or be given in marriage (Matt. 22:30), which is something that will be in heaven, but that certainly doesn't cancel God's will that man and woman be united in marriage to be one flesh here on earth (Matt. 19:6).

God bless!


bah! sure it does, we aren't asking God to make earthly things that he has given us (marriage) in heaven . we are taking about bringing heaven to us here. And heaven is anything but silent, esp when it comes to music.

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 06:11 PM
of course! he could worship, there are many ways to worship where as you are saying there is only one way, vocally. so can a mute man worship or has God forsaken him in that arena??
Where did I say there is only one way to worship?

There is only one way to worship in music that is spoken of in the New Testament, and that is singing. Also note that one can sing and make melody in one's heart, (Eph. 5:19) so I'm sure a mute could worship in song as well.

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 06:14 PM
I'll answer your question with another question:

If worship with instruments was desired on earth, why are there no NT examples of instruments being used? As I have said...the NT is added onto the OT, it does not 'replace' the OT... why re-mention it again of it was already done :hmm:

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 06:14 PM
bah! sure it does, we aren't asking God to make earthly things that he has given us (marriage) in heaven . we are taking about bringing heaven to us here. And heaven is anything but silent, esp when it comes to music.
If we remain within the realm of logic, there is no connection with the Lord's prayer and instrumental music. Perhaps if I'm missing something you can detail it out for us, but I don't think any sharing your view would join you in pursuing that as a justification for instrumental music in worship.

God bless

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 06:17 PM
As I have said...the NT is added onto the OT, it does not 'replace' the OT... why re-mention it again of it was already done :hmm:
Where was it "done?"

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 06:18 PM
There is only one way to worship in music that is spoken of in the New Testament, and that is singing. Also note that one can sing and make melody in one's heart, (Eph. 5:19) so I'm sure a mute could worship in song as well.
MAtt14, you sound like 'Fenris' :"Prove that Yeshua is MESSIAH, but do not use the NT": :spin:

You say, give me proof, but do not use the Book of John's Revelation... :rolleyes: it does sound like Fenris, does it not :hmm:

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 06:22 PM
Where was it "done?"Opps, sorry. I misunderstood your question.... It was done in Psalm 150 etal

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 06:24 PM
Opps, sorry. I misunderstood your question.... It was done in Psalm 150 etalOOOOOOpps x 2...it talks about PRAISE:blush: :blush: :blush:

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 06:26 PM
Matt14....
If I am only to use my body to worship, and no instruments..... then I can dance as worship :idea: :pp

Kinginsano
Sep 12th 2006, 06:26 PM
If its God's will to have music in heaven, as seen in various examples in Rev. (i mean if he didnt want it there, it wouldnt exist there, he is God and all.)


10'(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293M))Your kingdom come
(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293N))Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

And in this prayer we see that Gods will should be done on earth as it is in heaven. why would he permit and take delight in music used to worship him there (heaven) but not down here on earth?

(i do plan on a formal response to you concerning this Topic im just bouncing a few ideas off of you.)

Toolman
Sep 12th 2006, 07:07 PM
Matt, yes your answers were very clear and I will address them below, in regard to the principle that is being used in regard to the musical instruments which is authorization by scripture.


Actually, there are some who do. But that point aside, the example would be “fruit of the vine.” Although you and I have had this conversation before, and it’s an involved one, not all scholars and historians would agree that all “fruit of the vine” was alcoholic. Certainly, even alcoholic wine in the first century contained a considerably lower alcohol content than today’s wines (what are they today, 17%? 7%?).

Wines of today don't differ greatly from wines of ancient Roman times in alcoholic content, in fact some were very high (Falernian was up to 16%).

http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine-chart.php
http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine.php

Church history also reveals that wine was always used in the Lord's supper up until the late 1800s when Welch invented grape juice, not to mention the abundance of biblical evidence, especially 1 Corinthians 11:20-21 which clearly shows that some of the Corinthians were getting drunk on the communion wine.

Do you personally believe that the wine that Jesus partook of at passover was non-alcoholic and the wine used by the 1st century church was non-alcoholic?


Since drinking grape juice still qualifies as “fruit of the vine,” most congregations use unfermented juice. Do you disagree that grape juice is still “fruit of the vine?” When the grapes are first pressed, is it still “fruit of the vine,” or is it something else until it ferments?

My disagreement is that grape juice has not been authorized for the Lord's supper since it was not created (by man) until the late 1800s.

All congregations did not use unfermented juice until that time, even the restoration movement did not use grape juice until its invention and the pressure of the temperance movement, so at some point COC changed what had been used to the new invention.

Jewish history also tells us that the cup that Christ drank at passover was wine (4 cups were used) and nothing less.

So, if the reason for non-instrumental music is that this is what was authorized by God through scripture (and you have appealed to history as an agreement, via the reformers and church fathers) and we should only use that which has been authorized then the exact same standard must be applied to all elements of worship, including wine, and not grape juice, as the biblical and historical element of Christ's blood.


I think the alcohol content is optional, since I believe it’s still fruit of the vine when it is first squeezed.

To assume the alcohol is not important in the wine is no where to be found in scripture and is unauthorized in scripture. If God establishes a thing then we should do our best to obey, correct? Is this not the whole essence of your position?


Anyway, anther issue is the example before men. In the United States, drinking alcohol has come to be looked down upon for followers of Christ, and therefore may create a stumbling block for others. Someone has to go to the liquor store to get the wine, you know? Anyway, I think this is a secondary argument, but just one that some refer to. I think my first reason stated above is the correct one.

The church is first and foremost accountable to God. If God established and authorized wine as the element of Christ's blood and rememberance of Him then to change that standard (which was a standard for nearly 2000 years) because of man, culture, etc. goes against your base argument.

But I won't harp on that since it is the secondary argument :)


It’s the idea of the “expedient.” We are commanded to sing. Hymnals aid in this so everyone knows the words, microphones amplify the voice of the song leader so everyone can know when to start and end. These are aids to singing. But when an instrument is added, it is no longer vocal music, but becomes a different kind of music, vocal plus instrumental. Even the scriptures make a distinction between the two.

Carrying on with that example, we are told to baptize to make disciples, Matt. 28:19. Having water available is an expedient, an aid to accomplishing that. It does not hinder or alter the command.

I understand that it is expediant but can you share with me scripture where the Lord has authorized expedience and the use of man-made instruments in bringing about that expediency.

I do not see scriptural authorization for this use, which is the whole basis of the COC stance against instruments, that they are not authorized by scripture. Well, neither are hymnals, mics, pitch pipes, indoor baptistries, etc.


Does this answer help? We can talk more about this, if what I wrote is not clear. Sometimes I think I’m being clear, and I’m really not!

Your answers were very clear Matt and appreciated.

But I see a standard being applied in one instance that is not being applied in other instances (for expediency sake and temperance pressure).

And the whole argument against musical instruments is they are not authorized in the scripture for New Testament corporate worship:
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944166&postcount=10
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=944555&postcount=68
http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=945518&postcount=88

Well, where is the biblical authorization to remove the use of wine as the element of Christ's blood, which the Church used for almost 2000 years, including the restoration congregations until the late 1800s? Where is the authorization to use the new man-made invention of grape juice?

Where is the scriptural authorization to use man-made instruments like hymnals, pitch pipes, amplifiers, mics and indoor baptistries?

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 07:43 PM
Wines of today don't differ greatly from wines of ancient Roman times in alcoholic content, in fact some were very high (Falernian was up to 16%).

http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine-chart.php
http://www.unrv.com/economy/wine.php

Church history also reveals that wine was always used in the Lord's supper up until the late 1800s when Welch invented grape juice, not to mention the abundance of biblical evidence, especially 1 Corinthians 11:20-21 which clearly shows the Corinthians were getting drunk on the communion wine.

True, but that does not discount the fact that the Romans knew how to make mustum (must, which was grape juice) that would last a whole year without fermenting.

Generally, 7-10 percent is as high as a wine can go in alcohol content through natural process.


Do you personally believe that the wine that Jesus partook of at passover was non-alcoholic and the wine used by the 1st century church was non-alcoholic?

I suspect that the passover wine Jesus used was alcoholic, but diluted (see below).


My disagreement is that grape juice has not been authorized for the Lord's supper since it was not created (by man) until the late 1800s.

But wine wasn't commanded, but rather "fruit of the vine!" If you can explain to me how fresh-squeezed grape juice is not "fruit of the vine," I will recommend to the elders that we use wine. :)


All congregations did not use unfermented juice until that time, even the restoration movement did not use grape juice until its invention and the pressure of the temperance movement, so at some point COC changed what had been used to the new invention.

Jewish history also tells us that the cup that Christ drank at passover was wine and nothing less.

Probably diluted wine, though.

R. Laird Harris -- “All the wine [of Bible times] was light wine, i.e., not fortified with extra alcohol. Concentrated alcohol was only known in the Middle Ages when the Arabs invented distillation (‘alcohol’ is an Arabic word) so what is now called liquor or strong drink (i.e., whiskey, gin, etc.) and the twenty per cent fortified wines were unknown in Bible times. Beer was brewed by various methods, but its alcoholic content was light. The strength of natural wines is limited by two factors. The percentage of alcohol will be half of the percentage of the sugar in the juice. And if the alcoholic content is much above 10 or 11 percent, the yeast cells are killed and fermentation ceases. Probably ancient wines were 7-10 per cent . . .To avoid the sin of drunkenness, mingling of wine with water was practiced. This dilution was specified by the Rabbis in NT times for the wine customary at Passover” (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Chicago: Moody, 1980, Vol. I, p. 376)


So, if the reason for non-instrumental music is that this is what was authorized by God through scripture (and you have appealed to history as an agreement, via the reformers and church fathers) and we should only use that which has been authorized then the exact same standard must be applied to all elements of worship, including wine, and not grape juice, as the biblical and historical element of Christ's blood.

Again, if you can show that grape juice is not "fruit of the vine," then I will agree with you whole-heartedly.


To assume the alcohol is not important in the wine is no where to be found in scripture and is unauthorized in scripture. If God establishes a thing then we should do our best to obey, correct? Is this not the whole essence of your position?

To assume that alcohol WAS important, is too assume too much. "Fruit of the vine" was the descriptive term. Fermentation is a natural process that happens when sugar-laden liquid sits for a period of time. When it begins the process, it is just grape juice, but still fruit of the vine. When it ends the process, it may be wine, but it is still fruit of the vine.


But I won't harp on that since it is the secondary argument :)

*snicker* Harp! *snicker* Very punny. :lol:


I understand that it is expediant but can you share with me scripture where the Lord has authorized expedience and the use of man-made instruments in bringing about that expediency.

I do not see scriptural authorization for this use, which is the whole basis of the COC stance against instruments, that they are not authorized by scripture. Well, neither are hymnals, mics, pitch pipes, indoor baptistries, etc.

If I dig a pit outside the assembly building to fill with water and baptize, do you honestly think that is somehow changing the command to baptize?

The command to sing is altered by the use of instruments. It's no longer vocal music, but vocal + instruments.

If I baptize a man in a river, it's still a burial in water. If I baptize him in an indoor pool, bathtub, etc., it's still a burial in water.


Your answers were very clear Matt and appreciated.

Your questions too are much appreciated.


But I see a standard being applied in one instance that is not being applied in other instances (for expediency sake and temperance pressure).

Maybe it seems that way on the face of it. Perhaps you and I could study it together, more in-depth, and it would become clearer?

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 07:44 PM
MAtt14, you sound like 'Fenris' :"Prove that Yeshua is MESSIAH, but do not use the NT": :spin:

You say, give me proof, but do not use the Book of John's Revelation... :rolleyes: it does sound like Fenris, does it not :hmm:
I didn't say don't use Revelation, but we must keep it in its proper context. :)

Whispering Grace
Sep 12th 2006, 07:45 PM
If I baptize a man in a river, it's still a burial in water. If I baptize him in an indoor pool, bathtub, etc., it's still a burial in water.

Singing with instruments is still singing. ;)

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 07:47 PM
Singing with instruments is still singing. ;)
It's singing plus playing. ;)

Ta-An
Sep 12th 2006, 08:00 PM
Matt http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=952268&postcount=221

Whispering Grace
Sep 12th 2006, 08:46 PM
It's singing plus playing. ;)

The playing doesn't cancel out the singing. ;)

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 08:49 PM
Matt14....
If I am only to use my body to worship, and no instruments..... then I can dance as worship :idea: :pp

Is this a question? Show me the NT authority for dancing in worship, and I'll dance with you.

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 08:51 PM
The playing doesn't cancel out the singing.

But it adds to God's word.

Only singing is specified.

Playing is not singing.

Therefore, playing is not specified.

Singing plus playing is not singing, it's playing plus singing.

This is starting to get repetitive. :D

Whispering Grace
Sep 12th 2006, 09:00 PM
But it adds to God's word.

Only singing is specified.

Playing is not singing.

Therefore, playing is not specified.

Singing plus playing is not singing, it's playing plus singing.

This is starting to get repetitive. :D

:B ---------> WG, upon realizing there really are people more stubborn than she is.

:lol:

Whispering Grace
Sep 12th 2006, 09:02 PM
And Matt....if you get a chance:



Matt, I know it irks you to have the CoC referred to as a denomination and that you don't consider it one. But can you please explain to me how it's not a denomination?

Vickilynn
Sep 12th 2006, 09:06 PM
Shalom Brother!

Nice to see you again. You've been missed.


But where did He establish it? Where does the Word say it was pleasing to Him?
Here are some more: (And PLEASE don't say that command is for praise not worship! That's not a valid argument to me. )

Psalm 149:3 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+149%3A3)
Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
Psalm 150:3 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A3)
Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp!
Psalm 150:4 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A4)
Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!
Psalm 150:5 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A5)
Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!


Therefore, if you say these scriptures authorize instrumental music by example, I would agree, but only under the Old Testament dispensation. But, keep in mind that you and others have rejected the use of examples as directing our worship.
No, I said I cannot agree with your assertion that a lack of an example constitutes a prohibition. I do not agree that is how we are to read the Bible.



Also note that only the Levites were involved in most of the playing of musical instruments. If you live by this same understanding today, does your entire congregation (since we are all priests under the new covenant) play an instrument at the same time? Or only a select few?
Well, we do not live under the order of worship for the Temple since there is no more Temple and since we are ALL priests we may or may not use musical instruments. There is no command either way, that is my whole point.


Was this corporate temple worship, or more of a secular, state function?
That makes no difference in the application of whether we as Believers in Messiah and worshipping Him today may use musical instruments.



This has absolutely no relationship to the worship. Paul is merely making a point that one cannot discern a tune from a lifeless musical instrument unless it has a distinction in tones. He is not saying the instruments were used in worship. In fact, the next verse shows this is true:
And I'm saying that everything we do in a heart of worship, is worship to G-d. And, the presence of musical instruments in the Scriptures supports that using them was not prohibited.


In summary, though there are passages that speak of musical instruments in temple worship, and harps which may or may not be literal harps in heaven, there is not one single instance of a Christian playing a musical instrument in New Testament worship upon the earth.
In summary, you have not proven, by Scripture, that is prohibited to use musical instruments in worship. Whether you accept that the harps in Heaven are literal or not, I do and I take that as Scriptural example of using musical instruments in worship. Just saying that the harps [B]may not be literal is not a command not to use them.

So Brother, until you can prove by Scirpture that G-d is displeased with the music that he gives me to worship Him, I will continue to worship G-d with my whole heart and everything that he has given me, including music.

Thank you for your time and for the gentle and respectful discussion you offer here.

~~In Messiah,
Vickilynn
Micah 6:8

Toolman
Sep 12th 2006, 09:40 PM
True, but that does not discount the fact that the Romans knew how to make mustum (must, which was grape juice) that would last a whole year without fermenting.

Generally, 7-10 percent is as high as a wine can go in alcohol content through natural process.

And most table wines used in the U.S. have an average alcohol percent of between 7-10 percent. Very comparable to a biblical wine. Some brands contain even less than 7%.


I suspect that the passover wine Jesus used was alcoholic, but diluted (see below).


But wine wasn't commanded, but rather "fruit of the vine!" If you can explain to me how fresh-squeezed grape juice is not "fruit of the vine," I will recommend to the elders that we use wine. :)

You have used the scripture to understand that musical instruments are not to be used in worship.

You have also church history to understand that the position you have reached agrees with many of the church fathers and the reformers.

Now, regarding whether "fruit of the vine" was wine or grape juice I ask that you apply the same reasoning.

We agree (I believe) from the biblical text that there is substantial evidence that Jesus drank wine and not grape juice (non-alcoholic).

We also see that Church history agrees with this position as the Church used wine for over 2000 years.

Now, if your position is to emulate the 1st century Church and stay as close to the biblical commands as possible, which one whould be the safest choice after careful study, wine which the Church has historically used for centuries or grape juice which was invented in the 1800s?

Which one is authorized by scripture and which is not and which one keeps the church as "safe" as possible to following God's directives for worship?


Probably diluted wine, though.

R. Laird Harris -- “All the wine [of Bible times] was light wine, i.e., not fortified with extra alcohol. Concentrated alcohol was only known in the Middle Ages when the Arabs invented distillation (‘alcohol’ is an Arabic word) so what is now called liquor or strong drink (i.e., whiskey, gin, etc.) and the twenty per cent fortified wines were unknown in Bible times. Beer was brewed by various methods, but its alcoholic content was light. The strength of natural wines is limited by two factors. The percentage of alcohol will be half of the percentage of the sugar in the juice. And if the alcoholic content is much above 10 or 11 percent, the yeast cells are killed and fermentation ceases. Probably ancient wines were 7-10 per cent . . .To avoid the sin of drunkenness, mingling of wine with water was practiced. This dilution was specified by the Rabbis in NT times for the wine customary at Passover” (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Chicago: Moody, 1980, Vol. I, p. 376)

A small amount of table wine in communion would not intoxicate, so we can follow Christ's command, just as the Church did for 2000 years before temperance.


Again, if you can show that grape juice is not "fruit of the vine," then I will agree with you whole-heartedly.

If the term "fruit of the vine" is clearly shown to be wine, then as those who are seeking authorized elements of worship and to be as safe as possible to closely adhering to the commands then we should obey the clear command and not seek another element.

It is about being safe, right?


To assume that alcohol WAS important, is too assume too much. "Fruit of the vine" was the descriptive term. Fermentation is a natural process that happens when sugar-laden liquid sits for a period of time. When it begins the process, it is just grape juice, but still fruit of the vine. When it ends the process, it may be wine, but it is still fruit of the vine.

I assume its importance because that is what Christ drank and what He commanded to drink in remembrance of Him. I know that what He drank was alcoholic so I cannot assume that it was unimportant.


*snicker* Harp! *snicker* Very punny. :lol:

Thought that might strike a chord with you ;)


If I dig a pit outside the assembly building to fill with water and baptize, do you honestly think that is somehow changing the command to baptize?

Well, I have not found anywhere in the New Testament where they baptized in the corporate worship service. Baptism was performed in evangelical preaching done outside of the worship service, in the market place, temple, etc.
So, once again I see something that is not authorized in scripture.

The command is to baptize but taking in the whole text it appears that baptism was authorized only outside of corporate worship and not within.


The command to sing is altered by the use of instruments. It's no longer vocal music, but vocal + instruments.

I see WG is already addressing this one :)


If I baptize a man in a river, it's still a burial in water. If I baptize him in an indoor pool, bathtub, etc., it's still a burial in water.

Nevertheless, we have no authorization, that I am aware of, to baptize during corporate worship. So, to stay as safe as possible we should adhere to what is authorized and not add to it.

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 10:14 PM
Matt, I know it irks you to have the CoC referred to as a denomination and that you don't consider it one. But can you please explain to me how it's not a denomination?

Well, it doesn't really "irk" me, but I think it is incorrect. You see, the churches of Christ try to the best of their ability to worship with the Bible as our only guide. No creeds, no traditions. Perhaps we are not perfect in this regard, but we're doing the best we can.

To say that there are different "bodies," or that the body is divided, is to go directly against the teachings of the New Testament.

In John 17, Jesus prayed that those who believed would be one, using Himself and the Father as an example of what unity should be like. That's some serious "oneness!"

In Eph. 4:5, we read that there is one body. This body is identified in Col 1:18 as Christ's body, which is the church. In Eph. 5:23 we read that Jesus is the Savior of the body, which is the church.

These passages make it clear that there is only one body, Christ's body, and only this body will be saved. Like Paul says:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ."
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Christ is not divided. And yet, some will chose to worship under the names of people other than Christ. That is why we identify ourselves only as church of Christ, usually along with a location name, such as a town or street identifier. "Blank Street church of Christ," for instance.

We reject the idea that there is more than one valid "church." This was not what Christ died for. In Matt. 16:18 He said He would build His church, no one else's. That word "church" is singular. One body.

He also bought the church with His own precious blood, Acts 20:28. Therefore, like a bride taking only the name of her husband, we feel there is no other name we need to take other than His.

We strive only to be, and claim only to be, members of the church of Christ, the one body, bearing no other creeds than the Bible, and wearing no other name than Christ's.

We are not part of some divided body, because all those obedient to Christ whom He Himself has added to His body are members, Acts 2:41,47.

The reason it may offend some members of the church of Christ to be called a denomination is because Christ did not die for denominations, He died for His church. On the day of Pentecost, there were no denominations. And we believe there is no need for denominations today.

Hope this helps! God bless...

Matt14
Sep 12th 2006, 10:55 PM
Guys, I've got a couple coming over for a Bible study, so I won't be able to respond until maybe later tonight, Lord willing tomorrow. God bless everyone!

Teke
Sep 13th 2006, 12:48 AM
I withdrew myself from this thread. But I feel led, after prayer this evening, to come and post one more post to apologize for my use of scripture in stirring up so much passion among the fellowship here.

Christinme, I am sorry, please forgive me. I did not mean to stir such passion from you with the holy scriptures. I was truly not trying to be legalistic with scripture on this matter.

Tho Toolman has pointed out a regulative and normative aspect of this subject, it is not my intent to point this out, as it could be construed as an ordinance in relation to worship. Which I would not care to lead anyone into. Nor make such of the holy scriptures.

I can only speak for myself. Irregardless of how I understand all relating to scripture. I am a hesychast, which means I seek the stillness to know God. So any bodily distraction/passion would not be effective for me in hesychia. As it would engage me in the affairs of the bodily passions that I seek to overcome.
For me dispassion is the resurrection of the soul before the body.

Again, I am sorry, please forgive me. I repent. :pray:

The Psalm of my path.
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.


_____

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 02:16 PM
Here are some more: (And PLEASE don't say that command is for praise not worship! That's not a valid argument to me. )

Wait a minute, now. Before you say there is no command to worship with instruments. Now you say the Psalms quoted below represent commands. Which is it?


Psalm 149:3 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+149%3A3)
Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
Psalm 150:3 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A3)
Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp!
Psalm 150:4 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A4)
Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!
Psalm 150:5 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Psalm+150%3A5)
Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!

I'm not sure we want to go down the road of drawing commands for worship from Psalms. They were not meant for that purpose (commands).


No, I said I cannot agree with your assertion that a lack of an example constitutes a prohibition. I do not agree that is how we are to read the Bible.

Do you think it was okay for priests in the OT to come from a tribe other than Levi? Why not?


Well, we do not live under the order of worship for the Temple since there is no more Temple

There IS a temple, and Christians are that temple, Eph. 2:21; 2 Cor. 6:16. Our order of worship is different, in that we are under a different covenant.


and since we are ALL priests we may or may not use musical instruments. There is no command either way, that is my whole point.

You say at the top of this post the Psalms you quoted were Psalms. But, indeed under the New Covenant in Christ's blood we have no command to play instruments, but we have one to sing. I will not go ahead without authority from God.


That makes no difference in the application of whether we as Believers in Messiah and worshipping Him today may use musical instruments.

Sure it does. You draw your authority for the use of instruments from the examples in the OT. Yet, most of the examples of musical instruments in the OT are secular uses. Only during the monarchy were there major uses of instruments in worship. So yes, it does make a difference. Just because the band plays "God Bless America" during a state function does not give the church the right to use instruments.


And I'm saying that everything we do in a heart of worship, is worship to G-d. And, the presence of musical instruments in the Scriptures supports that using them was not prohibited.

There were many things that David and others did in the Bible that were not prohibited, but God did not command. Not all of them God approved of, either. I'm sure you can think of some examples.


In summary, you have not proven, by Scripture, that is prohibited to use musical instruments in worship. Whether you accept that the harps in Heaven are literal or not, I do and I take that as Scriptural example of using musical instruments in worship. Just saying that the harps may not be literal is not a command not to use them.

You have not proven that since we have examples in the OT of musical instruments, it's pleasing to God under a different dispensation to use them in worship, despite the lack of command or example in the NT, which governs our worship and walk for Christians.

Now, if you are Jewish, I can see why you would hold strongly to the Hebrew scriptures. But if not, I cannot understand why you would want to remain in Temple-style worship.


So Brother, until you can prove by Scirpture that G-d is displeased with the music that he gives me to worship Him, I will continue to worship G-d with my whole heart and everything that he has given me, including music.

This thread was not started with the intention of changing your mind, but to explain to WG about the practices of the church of Christ in non-instrumental music and to answer her questions. Your choice in worship is your choice. I believe that it is dangerous to add to God's command in this area, but I didn't intend for this thread to be an attack on instrumental music.


Thank you for your time and for the gentle and respectful discussion you offer here.

Likewise. It's been enjoyable, but I think it has run its course. :)

God bless!

Vickilynn
Sep 13th 2006, 02:47 PM
Wait a minute, now. Before you say there is no command to worship with instruments. Now you say the Psalms quoted below represent commands. Which is it?

Shalom Matt!

It is example by establishing an acceptable practice - not command. Because it was acceptable to G-d in the Scriptures, without a command to stop, it is still acceptable. I believe that I have said that repeatedly.



Do you think it was okay for priests in the OT to come from a tribe other than Levi? Why not? {/quote]

I believe the Bible was clear in the Temple instructions for Temple priests. That's not what we're discussing here.


[quote] There IS a temple, and Christians are that temple, Eph. 2:21; 2 Cor. 6:16. Our order of worship is different, in that we are under a different covenant.
I've made the same point, using it to support that we now have the FREEDOM under grace to worship with music and we are all priests.


There were many things that David and others did in the Bible that were not prohibited, but God did not command. Not all of them God approved of, either. I'm sure you can think of some examples.
The other side of the coin is that not all of them were displeasing to G-d since they came from a heart of worship.


You have not proven that since we have examples in the OT of musical instruments, it's pleasing to God under a different dispensation to use them in worship, despite the lack of command or example in the NT, which governs our worship and walk for Christians.
This is where we differ and as such why we believe what we do:
1) I see no Scriptural PROHIBITION and you have not provided one.

2) You see no new COMMAND and I have not provided one since I believe there is no need for one.

3) You want to "play it safe" and not err if you see no command.

4) I want to be led by the L-rd and my understanding of His Word with the freedom He gives me. Since I see no command NOT to worship in this way, and it was established in the Scriptures I believe it is perfectly acceptable.

Have I summed it up correctly?


Now, if you are Jewish, I can see why you would hold strongly to the Hebrew scriptures. But if not, I cannot understand why you would want to remain in Temple-style worship.
I am a born-again, blood-bought, forgiven child of the Messiah Jesus. I was lost but now I'm found. I was blind but now I see. I am a new creation in Messiah.

I believe that the WHOLE BIBLE is the Holy Scripture and the Word of G-d. Every word of it. ALL Scripture is useful and applicable to me in some way. I don't dismiss the "Hebrew" Scriptures because the Word says they are all G-d-breathed!

What I hold strongly to is the Hand of the L-rd and His leading of me by the Holy Spirit and His Word. What I want to do is to stay in His presence, ever-worshipping and ever-growing closer to Him.


2 Timothy 3: 16
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Timothy+3#f2) may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Does that help you understand me and my position better?



This thread was not started with the intention of changing your mind, but to explain to WG about the practices of the church of Christ in non-instrumental music and to answer her questions. Your choice in worship is your choice. I believe that it is dangerous to add to God's command in this area, but I didn't intend for this thread to be an attack on instrumental music.
I don't believe using music IS adding to G-d's Word, and that is where we differ.



Likewise. It's been enjoyable, but I think it has run its course.
Okey doke! :saint:


God bless!
G-d bless you too!

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 02:51 PM
You have used the scripture to understand that musical instruments are not to be used in worship.

You have also church history to understand that the position you have reached agrees with many of the church fathers and the reformers.

Now, regarding whether "fruit of the vine" was wine or grape juice I ask that you apply the same reasoning.

We agree (I believe) from the biblical text that there is substantial evidence that Jesus drank wine and not grape juice (non-alcoholic).

We also see that Church history agrees with this position as the Church used wine for over 2000 years.

Now, if your position is to emulate the 1st century Church and stay as close to the biblical commands as possible, which one whould be the safest choice after careful study, wine which the Church has historically used for centuries or grape juice which was invented in the 1800s?

Which one is authorized by scripture and which is not and which one keeps the church as "safe" as possible to following God's directives for worship?

I'm sorry to be hard-headed here, Toolman. But I see no difference in wine or grape juice, as far as qualifying to be called "fruit of the vine." The alcohol content of first century wines had more to do with the season, the amount of time since the grape harvest, rather than choice. If it could be proven that grape juice (the blood of the grape) was not considered "fruit of the vine," then I will recommend to the elders to start using wine. I'll even go buy it. But I don't think that can be proven.

Just like with musical instruments, if God wanted us to use fermented fruit of the vine only, it would have been specified. Only fruit of the vine is specified. Likewise, only singing is specified.


A small amount of table wine in communion would not intoxicate, so we can follow Christ's command, just as the Church did for 2000 years before temperance.

2000 years?

And no, I'm not against wine in the Lord's supper. But I think one has a choice, as long as it is fruit of the vine. That term describes fermented and unfermented grape juice.


If the term "fruit of the vine" is clearly shown to be wine, then as those who are seeking authorized elements of worship and to be as safe as possible to closely adhering to the commands then we should obey the clear command and not seek another element.

It is about being safe, right?

Sure. But again, see above. "Fruit of the vine" is safe, and commanded.


I assume its importance because that is what Christ drank and what He commanded to drink in remembrance of Him. I know that what He drank was alcoholic so I cannot assume that it was unimportant.

And I respect that. I choose differently, for different reasons. But I see nothing wrong with wine.


Thought that might strike a chord with you ;)

Just glad we didn't end on a sour note.


Well, I have not found anywhere in the New Testament where they baptized in the corporate worship service.

Perhaps not, but there were unbelievers entering the services:

1Co 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Would they withhold baptism of one who believes?


Baptism was performed in evangelical preaching done outside of the worship service, in the market place, temple, etc.
So, once again I see something that is not authorized in scripture.

I've only baptized one person during a worship service. All others have been the result of private studies. But, if there are unbelievers in the assembly, we have the obligation to preach the gospel to them and assist them if they desire baptism. "Why tarriest thou?" makes clear the importance of immediate obedience once one has learned the truth, Acts 22:16.


The command is to baptize but taking in the whole text it appears that baptism was authorized only outside of corporate worship and not within.

Again, that would deny the importance of immediate obedience. And teaching continues even during a baptism. PLus, there's the fact that most baptisms take place outside the worship.


Nevertheless, we have no authorization, that I am aware of, to baptize during corporate worship. So, to stay as safe as possible we should adhere to what is authorized and not add to it.

I know you are playing devil's advocate here, Toolman, and I appreciate your questions.

God bless!

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 03:00 PM
I'm needing to devote more time to my ministry, so I need to spend less time on this board, but I want to ask this one last question, and encourage you to consider something.



Do you think it was okay for priests in the OT to come from a tribe other than Levi? Why not?

I believe the Bible was clear in the Temple instructions for Temple priests. That's not what we're discussing here.

Answer the question, and you'll get a better understand of the position I take. :)

Why couldn't they get a priest from the tribe of Asher, for instance?

Vickilynn
Sep 13th 2006, 03:15 PM
Shalom Brother,

Last word eh? ;)

Let me just say this again.
The Bible clearly gave instructions on WHO may be a priest. G-d's instruction.

However, we are ALL priests now according to the same Bible and we all worship Him as we believe is acceptable to Him.

I can deal with the fact that you choose to do so without music so that you will "play it safe." I believe that is commendable.

Howeve, I do not believe it is "improper", unauthorized" displeasing" or "adding to the Scriptures" and haven't seen where that has been proved by Scripture.

So, yes, we are at the end of our discussion, each making our points and positions. The bottom line is what I believe we each sincerely desire to worship and please G-d and that HE sees the heart.

G-d bless you on your way!

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 03:29 PM
Shalom Brother,

Last word eh? ;)

Let me just say this again.
The Bible clearly gave instructions on WHO may be a priest. G-d's instruction.

However, we are ALL priests now according to the same Bible and we all worship Him as we believe is acceptable to Him.

I can deal with the fact that you choose to do so without music so that you will "play it safe." I believe that is commendable.

Howeve, I do not believe it is "improper", unauthorized" displeasing" or "adding to the Scriptures" and haven't seen where that has been proved by Scripture.

So, yes, we are at the end of our discussion, each making our points and positions. The bottom line is what I believe we each sincerely desire to worship and please G-d and that HE sees the heart.

G-d bless you on your way!
I'm not sure why you refuse to answer that question, vickilynn, but I will provide the answer for you.

In the OT, they understood that when God command priests from the tribe of Levi, that automatically excluded priests from other tribes! He didn't have to say, "You may not get priests from Asher, Dan, etc."

You see, God's silence on a subject meant something. In Hebrews 7:14, we see that of the tribe of Judah in relation to the priesthood, God spoke nothing. That meant something. They understood it. Sometimes today we do not. We want to go beyond.

God bless you, I wish you well.

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 03:33 PM
For anyone interested here's a quote from an early Christian writer:

ERASMUS "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones." (Erasmus, Commentary on I Cor. 14:19)

This comes from a site (not a church of Christ site, don't know the affiliation) with tons of quotes from early Christian writers regarding the practice of instrumental music in the first 300 years after Christ.

http://solascriptura-tt.org/LiturgiaMusicaLouvorCulto/NoMusicalInstrumentsInChurchServicesBefore300AD-Quotations.htm

Check it out, if you are interested.

Toolman
Sep 13th 2006, 03:39 PM
I'm sorry to be hard-headed here, Toolman. But I see no difference in wine or grape juice, as far as qualifying to be called "fruit of the vine." The alcohol content of first century wines had more to do with the season, the amount of time since the grape harvest, rather than choice. If it could be proven that grape juice (the blood of the grape) was not considered "fruit of the vine," then I will recommend to the elders to start using wine. I'll even go buy it. But I don't think that can be proven.

Just like with musical instruments, if God wanted us to use fermented fruit of the vine only, it would have been specified. Only fruit of the vine is specified. Likewise, only singing is specified.

Matt, you are correct I am playing "devil's advocate" but it is to make a point of an inconsistency that I see in the COC's approach to the text and the historical proof.

I can use the same logic of "fruit of the vine" being welch's grape juice (grape juice + pasteurization) and say that singing with an accompanying guitar or piano is still singing.

If you can prove that it is not singing then that would be a solid argument.


2000 years?

My bad, I meant ALMOST 2000 years, up until the time the Methodist dentist, Thomas Welch, invented pasteurized grape juice in 1869. Prior to that the whole Church used alcoholic wine (Roman Catholic, protestant and anabaptist congregations).


Sure. But again, see above. "Fruit of the vine" is safe, and commanded.

But its not the safest considering the whole of the text, Jewish passover history and the clear indication of Church history which all show that alcohol was used in Jesus' cup.

Singing with musical instrumentation is safe but singing without instrumentation is the safest, correct?

Should not the safest be chosen? Isn't that your whole point?


And I respect that. I choose differently, for different reasons. But I see nothing wrong with wine.

My point is that not only is there nothing wrong with it, it is clearly the safest choice of the given options.


Just glad we didn't end on a sour note.

I'm all played out on puns :lol:


Perhaps not, but there were unbelievers entering the services:

1Co 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

Would they withhold baptism of one who believes?

My only point was I see no authorization to create a baptistry. We can use human logic to justify the creation but not scripture alone.

So the argument for authorization from scripture alone for all things used in worship seems to not hold true for things that allow for expediency.


I know you are playing devil's advocate here, Toolman, and I appreciate your questions.

I appreciate your input also Matt and I continue to see some inconsistency (which I do not condemn because I believe we are a fallen people who are worshipping and following as best we know how) in the application of the rule of authorization.

I know you are busy and I'm not going to beat this issue to death, because I believe the issue of instruments in music is an area of liberty and non-essential doctrine but I have appreciated the opportunity to give and take in a brotherly fashion as always. I don't think its ever a bad idea to look to see what the text says (and doesn't say) and to look to see what the Church has historically believed.

Vickilynn
Sep 13th 2006, 03:47 PM
I'm not sure why you refuse to answer that question, vickilynn, but I will provide the answer for you.

Shalom Brother,

Because I've seen your response to this question over and over as you make your case, and this is where you and I differ. I don't need the answer, I know what the Bible says, but I disagree with you extrapolating a NEW command NOT to use music simply because of G-d's silence on the subject of Temple priests. I do not agree of you using that argument that silence means no.


In the OT, they understood that when God command priests from the tribe of Levi, that automatically excluded priests from other tribes! He didn't have to say, "You may not get priests from Asher, Dan, etc."
But, you're the one who keeps saying what was established in the OT has no bearing on our worship today. Again, you can't have it both ways.

And again, I do not agree in assuming G-d's will by His silence. If it was so important as to be displeasing to Him, I believe He would have made it clear.


26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


God bless you, I wish you well.
The same to you!

Matt14
Sep 13th 2006, 03:49 PM
I'm all played out on puns :lol:

Guess you're playing your "swan's song," then?

(sorry :rofl: )


I appreciate your input also Matt and I continue to see some inconsistency (which I do not condemn because I believe we are a fallen people who are worshipping and following as best we know how) in the application of the rule of authorization.

I know you are busy and I'm not going to beat this issue to death, because I believe the issue of instruments in music is an area of liberty and non-essential doctrine but I have appreciated the opportunity to give and take in a brotherly fashion as always. I don't think its ever a bad idea to look to see what the text says (and doesn't say) and to look to see what the Church has historically believed.

You know, being raised in the methodist denomination, I have been on the other end of the instrumental music issue. I've been on the other end of many biblical issues, in fact. But after being exposed to the teachings of many denominations, I can honestly say that I have never worshipped with a group of people (the church of Christ) closer to following the Bible only. Sure, there are shortcomings, because we are human. But the church of Christ is doing its best to understand and apply God's word in the church and in our lives, and to our world. Knowing how far I've come in understanding His word, I will not step back into former things. And that is a responsibility that comes upon us all: to follow God's teachings and His Son's Word and example as best we can, and seek only His will.

In that I am laboring, and I know you all feel the same way.

If anyone has questions or comments, or would like to know more, please don't hesitate to contact me through the PM system.

God bless you all.

Toolman
Sep 13th 2006, 03:59 PM
Guess you're playing your "swan's song," then?

(sorry :rofl: )


You are so in tune that its scary :saint:

Once again, thanks for your input and thoughts Matt.

Kinginsano
Sep 13th 2006, 09:09 PM
If its God's will to have music in heaven, as seen in various examples in Rev. (i mean if he didnt want it there, it wouldnt exist there, he is God and all.)


10'(M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293M))Your kingdom come
(N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%206&version=49#cen-NASB-23293N))Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

And in this prayer we see that Gods will should be done on earth as it is in heaven. why would he permit and take delight in music used to worship him there (heaven) but not down here on earth?

(i do plan on a formal response to you concerning this Topic im just bouncing a few ideas off of you.)

still havent gotten a answer from yee mr matt. you asked for me to clarify it and i think i did here, if it is still a confusing concept let me know i will try once again to rephrase it.