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SpeakSlow
Apr 4th 2007, 10:43 PM
Apparently, there is a verse in the Bible that says it is required of us to donate 10% of our earnings to God. Does this seem odd to any of you? It seems like all the evil cults out there require their members to do the same type of thing.

What's the deal?

Slug1
Apr 4th 2007, 11:15 PM
Which verse, that would help ;)

Paul_born_again
Apr 4th 2007, 11:29 PM
Does 10% really seem like that much to you? Jesus himself told the rich man (when he asked Jesus what he must do to enter the Kingdom), Jesus said to sell all his belonging and follow him.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the actual number of 10% is from the Old Testament only. In the NT we are instructed to give in "keeping with [our] income"

(1 Corinthians 16:2 - On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made)

Therefore, many Christians see the 10% as a valid minimum and go by that amount. Obviously if you are living an honest life and giving 10% will deprive your family of food, than I'm sure God is happy that you give whatever you can. But this is not the case it most situations where people are having difficulty with tithing (at least not in the western world).

Personally, this is something that I struggle with. I know that God will provide for what we need if we give all that we have to him. I pray often to God that my faith in Him to provide for me would become stronger; I would love to give much much more than 10%, but I suffer from the fear of living in this world and the monetary needs that come with it.

The real question one must ask is: are you struggling with tithing because you worry that you won't have enough money to eat or heat your home in the winter, or are you struggling with tithing because you want to buy that new video game or motorcycle ;)

(I'm not speaking to you specifically; just a general thought....)

edit: I also want to add this verse for you to consider: 2 Corinthians 9:7 - Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore, if you tithe a certain % because you feel you are forced to give that amount, than you are missing the point. Tithing should be done freely out of the goodness of our own hearts.

SpeakSlow
Apr 5th 2007, 12:14 AM
Does 10% really seem like that much to you? Jesus himself told the rich man (when he asked Jesus what he must do to enter the Kingdom), Jesus said to sell all his belonging and follow him.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the actual number of 10% is from the Old Testament only. In the NT we are instructed to give in "keeping with [our] income"

(1 Corinthians 16:2 - On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made)

Therefore, many Christians see the 10% as a valid minimum and go by that amount. Obviously if you are living an honest life and giving 10% will deprive your family of food, than I'm sure God is happy that you give whatever you can. But this is not the case it most situations where people are having difficulty with tithing (at least not in the western world).

Personally, this is something that I struggle with. I know that God will provide for what we need if we give all that we have to him. I pray often to God that my faith in Him to provide for me would become stronger; I would love to give much much more than 10%, but I suffer from the fear of living in this world and the monetary needs that come with it.

The real question one must ask is: are you struggling with tithing because you worry that you won't have enough money to eat or heat your home in the winter, or are you struggling with tithing because you want to buy that new video game or motorcycle ;)

(I'm not speaking to you specifically; just a general thought....)

edit: I also want to add this verse for you to consider: 2 Corinthians 9:7 - Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Therefore, if you tithe a certain % because you feel you are forced to give that amount, than you are missing the point. Tithing should be done freely out of the goodness of our own hearts.

No, it's not the money, it's kind of the principle. For a religion that bases itself on faith and rejects worldy things, requring people to give money is a bit strange. The Christian religion should be able to flourish without constant financial assistance.

It is the truth after all, and the truth should be free.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong...:cry:

Faith44
Apr 5th 2007, 12:30 AM
I too have always found this. I always thought the idea of donating to the church of course made sense, because those who preach the word of God need money too. But a specific fraction always seemed odd to me.

I do remember reading a verse in Genisis about a man who's prayer was answered by the Lord. In his thanks he pledged to donate 10% of his earnings to the church. It never said anything about God telling everyone they needed to give one tenth their earnings, but it was simply one man's personal committment.

I always figured that God wanted us to donate what we can. Or what if you hold back on tithing to donate to a worth cause? Like fighting world hunger or helping others in need. Would it be wrong to use the money for something like that over tithing?

What is tithing money used for by the way? Maintaining the church and providing the pastor and other church affiliates with income right? I never knew for sure, but that's what I always assumed.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2007, 12:42 AM
It is the truth after all, and the truth should be free.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong...:cry:As Paul_born_again said with this scripture: 2 Corinthians 9:7 - Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

The Christian faith doesn't "make" you give. Pastors will discuss the importance of giving because how else will churches and ministries do what they do? So Christians are convicted to give what they can.

That is why I asked you what scripture "requires" giving 10%. Not in the NT but in the OT you'll find some scripture.

threebigrocks
Apr 5th 2007, 12:49 AM
How in the world would some average churches of say 200 people ever meet? Where would service be held if some sort of rent or something wasn't paid? Even if you met under a tent on a piece of land that somebody just let's you use for nothing, that tent most likely was either bought or rented, with funds people gave cheerfully from the abilities they were blessed with to earn the funds. Or God could provide the tent itself from a willing donor.

Yet either way money somewhere, somehow, was involved. It's the way the world is. Much can be given to help support the pastor and keep the church running, but eventually directly monetary funds will be necessary. And, all the stuff that members donate had to be purchased with money.

It's impossible to to completely seperate our churches from money. We are in this world, we can't not function in it, but we are not of the world.

SammeyDW
Apr 5th 2007, 02:39 AM
Someone once said ,
If everyone gave 10% (unless they had a different arrangement with God).
The church's financial problems would all but disappear.

Tithes and offerings fund the church.
Do your part and help fund the church that you are a part of.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 5th 2007, 02:50 AM
No, it's not the money, it's kind of the principle. For a religion that bases itself on faith and rejects worldy things, requring people to give money is a bit strange. The Christian religion should be able to flourish without constant financial assistance.

It is the truth after all, and the truth should be free.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong...

I see it differently according to these scriptures:

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine.

Everything in this world is God's, and belongs to Him. In this aspect everything we have is given to us on loan, and thus we should always take good care of it, for God may want you to share what he gave to you with someone esle.

This is also the reason why if you lose something, then apparently God saw that someone else was in bigger need than you, or whatever the reason why God took away.

Job 9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?

Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

JC33andDivine
Apr 5th 2007, 09:29 AM
People need to tithe..because if we dont the churches will shut down. And we can also "tithe" in a sense by offering our time. Go volunteer to do something for your church. And do it cheerfully. The L-rd loves a cheerful giver.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 5th 2007, 10:10 AM
The concept of giving 10% comes from the Pentateuch, The Mosaic Law of the Old Testament. The 10% basically functioned as a sort of tax that was given to the Levites and priests who served in the Temple. Since the Levites had no piece of land as their inheritance, they were set over the Temple and the temple-service and were thus supported by the other 11 tribes. This practice has carried over into New Testament churches, where it is still common to give 10% of your income to the church. Some hold to this very strictly as a command from God, claiming that you are robbing God if you do not tithe (Malachi 3). Others do not hold to it as strictly as that.

The idea of tithing raises several questions in my mind:
1. Many know about the 10% that was given, but few know about the 10% of the remaining 90% that was supposed to be given, and even fewer know about the 10% off the remaining 81% that was supposed to be given. In actuality, the Israelite was required to "tithe" 27.1% of his income. Why do some still practice one part of the required tithe in the Law but not the other two?
2. The tithe was given to the priests and Levites serving in the Temple. Proponents of tithing argue that pastors are todays priests and Levites. Does Peter, however, not say that we are a Kingdom of priests? Has the separation between clergy and laity not been done away with in the New Testament?
3. The tithe was given to those serving in the Temple, something proponent of the tithe say is the church today. Looking at the NT, however, do we not see the believers described as the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Surely the building is no longer the Temple or "God's House" as such? Are we as believers not God's House? And if that is so, who and where should the tithe be given to?
4. If tithing is to be practiced in the New Testament, why did the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 not write this to the different churches? Have we not been set free from the Law?
5. Does Corinthians not tell us to either give liberally from the heart or not give at all? How can that be reconciled with tithing?

All in all, I highly question the principle of tithing as a New Testament practice. And if it is a NT practice, I think we should give 27.1% and not 10%. Still, giving 10% is not a bad thing and can be used as a guideline of what could be given to the church. Just remember that all of your money is God's to begin with, even the remaining 90%...

Paul_born_again
Apr 5th 2007, 02:14 PM
What is tithing money used for by the way? Maintaining the church and providing the pastor and other church affiliates with income right?

Here's another thought: the millions of missionaries around the world are able to function because people tithe to their cause and the missionaries themselves tithe their time. Church-run homeless shelters and "soup kitchens" could not feed thousands of people in your city (and in generalities - millions of people around the world) if it were not for people tithing. These are just 2 examples, there are many more of course.

I'm just saying that tithing goes far beyond giving an income to the pastor and paying the mortgage for the church's building/land.

What was said above is correct: all of your money and possessions belong to God anyway. Tithing is a great way to give to Him and let Him decide how best to use the money that he has so graciously let you use :)

hillbilly dave
Apr 5th 2007, 03:12 PM
I have never been in church that required a payment to enter. The Bible not only tells to bring our tithes into the storehouse but also our offerings. The woman who gave two pennies at the temple Christ said gave as much as the rich for on faith she gave all she had. Paul refused the payment offered to him saying I will not take your money as I rely on my faith in God. rough paraphrasing. All of the last two post I agree totally. We can tithe and offer with more than money.

lrl
Apr 5th 2007, 03:26 PM
Paul himself said to take up offerings so that there will be "money" (I put that in quotes, because it wasn't specifically dollars and cents.....it was the "stuff" needed to survive) to care for church members and leaders.

God DOES provide everything. Every red cent I make belongs to Him. He has made me a steward of what HE believes I can be trusted with and I support God's people with that money.

Paying the church a sum of money is NO different then my job paying me a sum of money. As I have been blessed with a paycheck, I pass that blessing on.....which becomes my "paycheck" to God's church. They then pass it on and so on and so forth.

10% is a legalistic number. We aren't held to that. But as I've said before, if we want to find a great EXAMPLE of what Christian giving is, then there is no better place to look then the OT. Are we bound by that law? No, but where else would you have a Christian go to find examples of historical, Godly giving?

So 10% is used, because it's the specific amount giving in the OT (though it's often referred to and a tenth of everything, not 10%.....though they mean the same thing) and the OT is being used as a guideline. An example of Godly giving, based on historical tithes.

Any church that requires tithing for membership is not a church that anyone should be a part of. A church that TALKS about tithing is not doing anything other then what Paul did in his letters to the various churches, giving instructions on caring for God's people WITH GOD'S MONEY.

As a side note, I agree with an earlier poster that said many people forsake a tithe and claim financial hardship. I know that is absolutely the case for many, but many put tithing/giving at the bottom of the list. Whatever they have "left over" is what they give, and shucks because there's never anything left over. Yet they have a new car payment, a big screen tv, eat out three times a week, etc.....

I used to think that way.

God convicted me that I could TRUST Him to provide....and that's really what a tithe is. It about a Christian putting faith in God to return to them what they have given back to Him.

And you know the amazing thing? I would guarantee you that there are COUNTLESS testimonies on this website of people that, when they began to tithe, found that their money stretched further, provided more and stopped being a burden (in always wishing there was more), and began to be a blessing.

People are emotional about money....which is why they don't want their pastors talking about it. We get defensive if we even feel an inkling of guilt over not being a good steward. We don't balk when our pastors tell us that we shouldn't lie, steal or cheat......but have him suggest that we should be better stewards with our money, and suddenly he's money-hungry.

But it's BECAUSE we are emotional about money that we should be giving it away (not necessarily to the "church"....and in a building with brick walls....but to God's body). Where are treasure is, that is where our heart is. When we guard our money, we are elevating it and not calling it His.

Paul_born_again
Apr 5th 2007, 03:51 PM
As a side note, I agree with an earlier poster that said many people forsake a tithe and claim financial hardship. I know that is absolutely the case for many, but many put tithing/giving at the bottom of the list. Whatever they have "left over" is what they give, and shucks because there's never anything left over. Yet they have a new car payment, a big screen tv, eat out three times a week, etc.....


That brings up another good point. Many people say "I would tithe if I just made a little more money", when the reality is: how generous you are with your money now will generally remain the same no matter how much money one has in the future. Or in other words... if you gave about 10% when you were a college student living week to week... you will probably still be giving 10% when you are older and have a steady job and moderate income. On the other hand, if you say now that you would give if you earned more, you will probably be saying the same thing after you start earning more - using the excuse that you now have more (luxury) expenses to pay for so you cannot give yet. I don't have any stats to back this up but I have heard this said for a long time and I think most people would agree with this assessment.

I don't mean to be judgmental of anyone either... I am just speaking in vague generalities.

Magnetic
Apr 5th 2007, 04:13 PM
How is this thread any different than the tithes thread I started? :confused

divaD
Apr 5th 2007, 04:18 PM
Here's a question I have if anyone cares to shed any light on it. If we're required to give 10%, what if we don't go to church, who are we supposed to give this 10% to? I have no plans or desires to support any of these preacher/teachers I see on tv. So, who does someone such as I, give the 10% to?
Church would be different if ones went there only to worship God in truth and in Spirit, but instead we also have to be subjected to theology that might or might not be biblical. I'm all for the former but the latter is another story. Unfortunately this hinders me from attending church.

Pilgrimtozion
Apr 5th 2007, 04:28 PM
Here's a question I have if anyone cares to shed any light on it. If we're required to give 10%, what if we don't go to church, who are we supposed to give this 10% to? I have no plans or desires to support any of these preacher/teachers I see on tv. So, who does someone such as I, give the 10% to?


I could give you my account number... ;)

No seriously, why don't you invest it in local ministry projects or even give it to somebody in financial need? Or invest in a missions organization or something.

Paul_born_again
Apr 5th 2007, 05:34 PM
Here's a question I have if anyone cares to shed any light on it. If we're required to give 10%, what if we don't go to church, who are we supposed to give this 10% to?

Here's one for ya:
World Vision (http://www.worldvision.org/)

There are thousands of worthy organizations that are performing God's call :)

Centurionoflight
Apr 5th 2007, 11:27 PM
divaD



Here's a question I have if anyone cares to shed any light on it. If we're required to give 10%, what if we don't go to church, who are we supposed to give this 10% to? I have no plans or desires to support any of these preacher/teachers I see on tv. So, who does someone such as I, give the 10% to?
Church would be different if ones went there only to worship God in truth and in Spirit, but instead we also have to be subjected to theology that might or might not be biblical. I'm all for the former but the latter is another story. Unfortunately this hinders me from attending church.


We are not "required" to give any thing;

If you dont have a church; then why should you give to some TV ministery, just to give it?

That money burning a hole in your pocket?

Why not save it; invest it; buy a new bible?

If a need is out there God will bring it to you.

Slug1
Apr 5th 2007, 11:31 PM
Why not save it; invest it; buy a new bible?

If a need is out there God will bring it to you.

That is exactly what happened to me about 5 months ago. I had saved up a considerable amount of money for a new M4 rifle but soon as I had enough I began to second guess my priorities. So I prayed on it and that day I heard the fund drive for that KLOVE Christian Radio... I ended up giving half my savings and I felt SO GOOD, I knew it was what God wanted me to do :pp

Centurionoflight
Apr 5th 2007, 11:35 PM
Slug1


That is exactly what happened to me about 5 months ago. I had saved up a considerable amount of money for a new M4 rifle but soon as I had enough I began to second guess my priorities. So I prayed on it and that day I heard the fund drive for that KLOVE Christian Radio... I ended up giving half my savings and I felt SO GOOD, I knew it was what God wanted me to doHee hee

But its a rifle man..



http://re3.mm-a7.yimg.com/image/3942740413

It so lovely
{Last day of a gun show; I bet you could get a steal on it.}

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 6th 2007, 12:51 AM
While i agree that God will bring you the need, i also believe there's times we are supposed to reach out, and more often than not. Look around you, i'm sure at any time you can see a fellow being more needy than you.

When you realize that everything in this World belongs to God, i am acknowledging that God put me in charge of all that i have, and that i am to act as His ambassador.

watchinginawe
Apr 6th 2007, 02:19 AM
How is this thread any different than the tithes thread I started? :confusedGood point, but people would have to read your whole thread to see it turned out the same. The title and original post of your thread seems to suggest a different topic and is an interesting question in it's own right.\

God Bless!

Lone Wolf
Apr 6th 2007, 05:03 AM
The tithe was commanded by God specifically to Israel. The tithe was used to support the Levites who were not allowed to work but were to minister the things of God taking care of the tabernacle and the temple.

Because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, there is no more tabernacle, no more need for animal sacrifice. Christ has died for us. No more need for the Levites as priests nor the high priest for we all have direct access to God. Because there are no more Levites or temple, there is no more tithe.

Are we as Christians encouraged to give? Absolutley! :-) But unlike the Mosaic Law which demanded 10%, in the NT book of 2 Corinthians (addressed to born again believers in the Body of Christ) we are not commanded to tithe rather...

2 Cor. 9:7

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

This is completely in contrast to the OT which was written to Israel. You weren't allowed to "decide" what you wanted to give because God already decided for you..10%.

But that was part of the Levitical law, and Christ has freed us from the law. If you want to give, great! But give in response to a blessing, give because you want to give, not because someone is forcing you to go back under the law and demanding that you tithe.


God Bless,

Lone Wolf

Magnetic
Apr 6th 2007, 07:55 PM
Good point, but people would have to read your whole thread to see it turned out the same. The title and original post of your thread seems to suggest a different topic and is an interesting question in it's own right.\

God Bless!

"Good point" to you, too, watchinginawe! But I can see that, yes, it is turning out about the same as my thread (of which the title of my thread, and opening post was negated as the posts came).

Thanks and God bless you, too! :hug:

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 7th 2007, 01:17 AM
Lone Wolf,


This is completely in contrast to the OT which was written to Israel. You weren't allowed to "decide" what you wanted to give because God already decided for you..10%.

I disagree with this statement, as Yeshua pointed out in this story:

Mar 12:42 And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny.
Mar 12:43 And he called his disciples to him and said to them, "Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box.
Mar 12:44 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."

This is actually in line with with the scripture you posted, and it goes to show that Yeshua was certainly explaining OT law in the right spirit:

2 Cor. 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

At this time the OT was certainly still in effect.

It was some of the pharisees, that were stone cold and only looked at the law being fulfilled, rather than the spirit and intention by which someone followed.

Also, as a sidenote, do you not think when we are grafted into the tree we become Israel as well ? *this is in referrence to this comment here:


The tithe was commanded by God specifically to Israel. The tithe was used to support the Levites who were not allowed to work but were to minister the things of God taking care of the tabernacle and the temple.

I challenge you to research if there was not also people back then in the OT that one would consider "Gentiles" by nature, that also chose to follow God...


Shalom,
Tanja

DiscipleDave
Apr 8th 2007, 02:17 PM
Apparently, there is a verse in the Bible that says it is required of us to donate 10% of our earnings to God. Does this seem odd to any of you? It seems like all the evil cults out there require their members to do the same type of thing.

What's the deal?

The teachings of Moses teach that we must give 10%, but we are no longer under the law ( of Moses ), We have a New Covenant with Jesus Christ, Therefore if we have a New the Old is passed away. Jesus and His Disciples taught us, that we should give all, not only 10%. For we own nothing, Everything we have belongs to Him, and is not ours, even we our own selves are bought with price. To put a limit on how much a person should give, in my eyes is evil and ungodly, One week if i am able i will give 30%, another i will give 5%, and yet another i am able to give 50%. Therefore those who are able to give 20% but hold back some of it, because they only believe they HAVE to give 10%, therefore do not have to give more then that, are like Ananias and his wife, which also held part of it back for themselves, this is evil.
We are taught as True Christians to give to everyone in need, regardless if we have met that 10% limit.
Again to give only 10% is the teachings of Moses, You are then a follower of Moses or a follower of Jesus:

1Cor:10:24: Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^

Studyin'2Show
Apr 8th 2007, 05:51 PM
Whenever this topic comes up and I see the thread, I pretty much say the same thing. No one is forced to give anything to anyone. However, since I began to practice the principle of tithing, I have been so incredibly blessed that it is amazing. BTW, I don't limit myself to 10%, most times giving more as the Lord leads. I was 31 at the time and my hubby and I had jobs but the income we had never seemed to be enough. I had no bank account, no car at the time (the last one had been repo'd), no retirement savings, no financial stability whatsoever. Now, all that has changed in just 8 and a half years. Not only do we have a checking account and a savings account but we also have accounts for each of our three children, not only do I have a car, but so does my husband (both paid for), and my seventeen yr old daughter (that she paid for - she's a tither too). My hubby has a five figure retirement account, and we have financial stability, something we have NEVER had before. And get this, we make LESS than we did before! Really! I was even able to be a stay at home mom for a very long time, which I would never had even dreamed of before. God said to test Him in this one thing. I have and have found Him faithful in this like everything else.

Just like I said that our money never seemed to be enough before, now it's the exact opposite. Even though we make LESS than we did then (REALLY!), it goes so much farther now. It's like sales find us! Crazy stuff like going to the grocery store and buying $150 worth of food and spending like $65. Really! My daughter got a 1995 Saturn SL2 (that looked and ran great) for $425. I got my 2000 Daewoo (I know it's a Daewoo :rolleyes:) that looks and runs great for $1200, for a 2000 with a/c that works (a necessity in South FL). It's like He stretches our funds so they go much farther. I hope I'm not just ranting but for me God has been so faithful in this that I can't help singing HIS praises!

All that said, I have NEVER tithed to any tv ministry. I have NEVER sent money to any tv preacher that promised some tenfold blessing or something like that for it. That has never felt right to me. I have never given to get ANYTHING. That's never been what it was about for me. As far as where I tithe, it's where I'm being fed; my local church. I give much more than money having worked in youth ministry for 8 years. I would encourage any believer to take God up on His challenge but not so they can get THINGS. Simply so they can see how trustworthy He is.

God Bless!

Ta-An
Apr 8th 2007, 06:43 PM
When you go for a meal at a restaurant,,,how much do you tip the waiter??

Magnetic
Apr 9th 2007, 02:13 PM
When you go for a meal at a restaurant,,,how much do you tip the waiter??


At least $3, regardless of the cost of the meal.

Slug1
Apr 9th 2007, 02:19 PM
I'm the same way as Magnetic. I can get a $3 breakfast at a diner and my tip'll be no less then $3 no matter what.

Ta-An
Apr 9th 2007, 05:06 PM
Okay,,, seeing that for $3 service and goods received, you tip $3, that equals 100%.... does your whole income not belong to G_d :hmm: so why cry about 10%..... shall your blessing not equal your commitement....and I am not preaching prosperity theology now...

Slug1
Apr 9th 2007, 05:11 PM
;) I give, so I don't question tithing.

Christian Holzman
Apr 10th 2007, 11:52 PM
tithing is an old testament teaching, which you will only find one instance in the old testament where the tithe was money(I am not talking about the temple tax). In the new testament it teaches us to give freely. You dont give because the law tells you to, your pastor or church tells you to. You give because you want to and its not 10% its what you feel lead to give. There are many that will argue the 10% because abraham gave 10% to melchesidek(sorry if spelling is wrong, that has to be the hardest name in the bible to spell) what they forget to tell you is that the 10% was spoils of a war to that he faught for the king of sodom and he gave the other 90% to the king and kept nothing for himself. Dont take this post the wrong way this is not a post saying that you should not give because you are not required to, its just to show that the teaching of the tithe is incorrect. We should all give, but give freely. Give to those who God has shown you to give to. Take care of the poor, the fatherless, the widows and the strangers who are in need.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 11th 2007, 02:55 AM
Christian Holzman,

How would you react in light of these scriptures:

Luk 20:25 He[Yeshua] said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Which are the things that are God's ?

Psa 50:10 For every wild animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the air, and all that moves in the field is mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and all that is in it is mine.


So if everything is this world is God's then what does that say about us, when we are greedy with what He bestowed upon us ?

How easily could he take what He has given ?

Magnetic
Apr 11th 2007, 02:04 PM
Christian Holzman,

How would you react in light of these scriptures:

Luk 20:25 He[Yeshua] said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Which are the things that are God's ?

Psa 50:10 For every wild animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the air, and all that moves in the field is mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and all that is in it is mine.


So if everything is this world is God's then what does that say about us, when we are greedy with what He bestowed upon us ?

How easily could he take what He has given ?

Whether or not we use what God has placed in our hands doesn't mean that it all belongs to God anyway! I don't look on those scriptures as a "see, you should pay your 10%". 100% of it is God's. 100% of this world is God's. We are just living in it, using it as we see best. My other thread pointed out in Deuteronomy that the WE are to use the tithe (eat the tithe) so that we "may learn to fear the Lord".

I really wish this topic would be answered for us. I have no problems giving 10% to God if it is commanded us to do so. I just have a problem with it IF it were a product of legalism and a law which no longer applies today.

As it is, the church has me so "scared" that if I don't give a tenth of what I make, I will end up having bad things happen to me because of some curse I brought upon myself out of disobedience.

For what it's worth, I have given 10% for most of my working life, . . . . before taxes. I must be honest that, in the past two weeks, I haven't given anything to the church. A part of it is the "test me and see if I (God) won't pour out on you a blessing that you won't be able to contain..." I tithed, yet my blessings haven't poured in. I stand at the brink of divorce. That was my reasoning for the past two weeks. However, I realize that bad things happen in life. I'm not sure what the "blessings that you won't be able to contain" is even supposed to mean, but I don't want to be cursed because I am listening to [perhaps] a misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 14, by not giving the required 10%!

These topics have greatly concerned me. I don't want to be disobedient, but don't want to be under some sort of legalism either, when it isn't necessary.

Steve M
Apr 11th 2007, 03:04 PM
Whether or not we use what God has placed in our hands doesn't mean that it all belongs to God anyway! I don't look on those scriptures as a "see, you should pay your 10%". 100% of it is God's. 100% of this world is God's. We are just living in it, using it as we see best. My other thread pointed out in Deuteronomy that the WE are to use the tithe (eat the tithe) so that we "may learn to fear the Lord".

I really wish this topic would be answered for us. I have no problems giving 10% to God if it is commanded us to do so. I just have a problem with it IF it were a product of legalism and a law which no longer applies today.

As it is, the church has me so "scared" that if I don't give a tenth of what I make, I will end up having bad things happen to me because of some curse I brought upon myself out of disobedience.

For what it's worth, I have given 10% for most of my working life, . . . . before taxes. I must be honest that, in the past two weeks, I haven't given anything to the church. A part of it is the "test me and see if I (God) won't pour out on you a blessing that you won't be able to contain..." I tithed, yet my blessings haven't poured in. I stand at the brink of divorce. That was my reasoning for the past two weeks. However, I realize that bad things happen in life. I'm not sure what the "blessings that you won't be able to contain" is even supposed to mean, but I don't want to be cursed because I am listening to [perhaps] a misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 14, by not giving the required 10%!

These topics have greatly concerned me. I don't want to be disobedient, but don't want to be under some sort of legalism either, when it isn't necessary.
That right there is EXACTLY why Paul was compelled to say 'give freely, NOT UNDER COMPULSION.'

Then we decided that people who give freely, and not under compulsion, will give LESS and CHEAT GOD and we decide to COMPEL them to give God His due.

Because we, of course, know better than God.

Slug posted this in post 6.

2 Corinthians 9:7 - Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Not reluctantly.

Not under compulsion.

Not ten percent, but what he decided in his heart to give.

For the Lord loves a cheerful giver.

jgarden
Apr 11th 2007, 03:27 PM
Tithing is often interpreted as a method of paying professionals to assume our responsibilities as Christains.

Despite persecution, the early Church achieved tremendous growth without buildings, missionaries, professional clergy, etc.

Early Christianity was primarily the religion of the poor and slaves, so money was not an important factor in spreading the faith.

It is a Christian's responsibility to tithe, but the Church's greatest asset has always been its members.

Magnetic
Apr 11th 2007, 04:21 PM
Tithing is often interpreted as a method of paying professionals to assume our responsibilities as Christains.

Despite persecution, the early Church achieved tremendous growth without buildings, missionaries, professional clergy, etc.

Early Christianity was primarily the religion of the poor and slaves, so money was not an important factor in spreading the faith.

It is a Christian's responsibility to tithe, but the Church's greatest asset has always been its members.


This is what I'm talking about. Who is right here, for pete sake!!! Are we held responsible to give a 10% tithe, or not? One person says yes, another no. What are we supposed to pull out of scripture concerning this? :confused :help:

Steve M
Apr 11th 2007, 05:13 PM
This is what I'm talking about. Who is right here, for pete sake!!! Are we held responsible to give a 10% tithe, or not? One person says yes, another no. What are we supposed to pull out of scripture concerning this? :confused :help:
It should be obvious by now that you can't draw a consensus of any sort on the matter.

My only answer to that is that the Bible is right...whatever it actually said.

So... if you can figure that one out, you've got it all figured out.

Oh, and now I think I'm supposed to repeat that verse from 1 Corinthians again. Yeah.

Christian Holzman
Apr 11th 2007, 05:36 PM
Christian Holzman,

How would you react in light of these scriptures:

Luk 20:25 He[Yeshua] said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Which are the things that are God's ?

Psa 50:10 For every wild animal of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
Psa 50:11 I know all the birds of the air, and all that moves in the field is mine.
Psa 50:12 "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and all that is in it is mine.


So if everything is this world is God's then what does that say about us, when we are greedy with what He bestowed upon us ?

How easily could he take what He has given ?

study what the tithe was and what it was used for and you will change your 10% view.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 11th 2007, 05:43 PM
These topics have greatly concerned me. I don't want to be disobedient, but don't want to be under some sort of legalism either, when it isn't necessary

To answer your question let me give you some scriptures to consider along with those i already posted:

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

As before mentioned, if the compulsion comes from man and fear that you're somehow missing out, then it shouldn't be done, cause you're not doing it out of the abundance of your heart... but if you see a fellow being in need and have compassion, then give as much as you are able.

This is in accordance with God saying He loves a cheerful giver. IOW follow your heart on these matters, not your logistic mind.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 11th 2007, 05:46 PM
study what the tithe was and what it was used for and you will change your 10% view.

I'm not sure how that would change anything.
BTW, i'm pretty sure i know enough about what the tithe was, and what it was used for....I go to the OT regularly.....

Magnetic
Apr 11th 2007, 06:08 PM
For me, it isn't a matter of giving what I feel I need to. Most of the time, I don't know what I should be doing, when it comes to spiritual matters!

2 Corinthians 9:7 - Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

It isn't about this verse at all. It is about making sure I'm doing what I am supposed to be doing. . . . making sure that I am being obedient, if it is what I'm supposed to be obedient in! If God is saying, give 10% [tithe] of whatever you make, I will do so, . . . again, out of obedience. If God never said that, and someone can tell me this as a fact, then I won't give a tithe at all, but if I feel lead to help a need with an offering.

Steve M
Apr 11th 2007, 06:19 PM
If God is saying, give 10% [tithe] of whatever you make, I will do so, . . . again, out of obedience. If God never said that, and someone can tell me this as a fact, then I won't give a tithe at all, but if I feel lead to help a need with an offering.

...and to support those that do the work of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9
7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?

8 Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain." Is it oxen God is concerned about?

10 Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?

12 If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more? Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?

14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

jgarden
Apr 11th 2007, 06:34 PM
Instead of 10% of your income, what about 10% of your available time - I suspect that would be closer to the true meaning of tithing.

Magnetic
Apr 11th 2007, 07:29 PM
jgarden, I share you in your :B

And I think that it is a good thing to volunteer time, do what ever is your part for God.

Steve M., concerning your post, I have to say that I still am not sure one way or the other. I don't want to live under a curse for not tithing a tenth, if I'm expected to. And with all due respect to you (to which there is plenty :) ), I don't see what I'm supposed to draw from your post, in regards to my concerns. :confused

pnewton
Apr 11th 2007, 11:28 PM
When you go for a meal at a restaurant,,,how much do you tip the waiter??10-20%, depending on service. That would be 10-20% of the cost of the meal, not my total income. Using this logic would be a great idea. We give a percentage based on how good the service is. It would lead to great preaching!

pnewton
Apr 11th 2007, 11:32 PM
Instead of 10% of your income, what about 10% of your available time - I suspect that would be closer to the true meaning of tithing. This is the second post to mention time. While the Church needs money to pay the bills, time is a valuable substitute for those with little money. We have a lot of poorer immigrants in our Church who give almost nothing, But these same people will be the first to volunteer for hard work, saving the Church thousands in labor cost during any renovation or construction project.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 12th 2007, 12:28 AM
10-20%, depending on service. That would be 10-20% of the cost of the meal, not my total income. Using this logic would be a great idea. We give a percentage based on how good the service is. It would lead to great preaching!How much does your preacher charge for the sermon? You know, so you can work out the 10% for the tip. :hmm: I've never actually had a preacher charge so I'm confused at how you would do the estimating. :D

Steve M
Apr 12th 2007, 02:02 PM
jgarden, I share you in your :B

And I think that it is a good thing to volunteer time, do what ever is your part for God.

Steve M., concerning your post, I have to say that I still am not sure one way or the other. I don't want to live under a curse for not tithing a tenth, if I'm expected to. And with all due respect to you (to which there is plenty :) ), I don't see what I'm supposed to draw from your post, in regards to my concerns. :confused
I was really only responding to that last line about giving as there are needs. One constant need is the support of the preacher. That's a given, as commanded by Paul.

Beyond that? I can only say that those who say the Bible commands a tithe do so from a desire to please God.

But I don't think the Bible binds any such thing on Christians.

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 02:20 PM
I was really only responding to that last line about giving as there are needs. One constant need is the support of the preacher. That's a given, as commanded by Paul.

Beyond that? I can only say that those who say the Bible commands a tithe do so from a desire to please God.

But I don't think the Bible binds any such thing on Christians.


So, . . . . is there no definite on this topic? How should we respond to a sermon where the preacher reaches in Malachi saying to the congregation that they are robbing God if they don't tithe, when it seems that those verses were directed to the Levitical priests only? And when they preach that 10% [tithe] goes to the church, how do I respond to that when it seems, in Deuteronomy 14, that we are to use the tithe for ourselves, expect for the 3rd year, and then it goes to the Levites, and since there ARE no more Levites around, . . . . . . . . . . .well, you get the idea.

Where in the Bible does it say that, "since there are no more Levites, then you should no longer use your tithe for yourself (so you may learn to fear God), but should now give it to the man who's building you go to on Sunday to hear sermons from?

Steve M
Apr 12th 2007, 02:37 PM
So, . . . . is there no definite on this topic? How should we respond to a sermon where the preacher reaches in Malachi saying to the congregation that they are robbing God if they don't tithe, when it seems that those verses were directed to the Levitical priests only? And when they preach that 10% [tithe] goes to the church, how do I respond to that when it seems, in Deuteronomy 14, that we are to use the tithe for ourselves, expect for the 3rd year, and then it goes to the Levites, and since there ARE no more Levites around, . . . . . . . . . . .well, you get the idea.

Where in the Bible does it say that, "since there are no more Levites, then you should no longer use your tithe for yourself (so you may learn to fear God), but should now give it to the man who's building you go to on Sunday to hear sermons from?
Well, first of all the Levitical priesthood, when it was done away with, was replaced with a priesthood of believers.

I agree with David Jeremiah's preaching on this matter. He says the giving in the Old Law was by rote, a matter of percentage. Giving in the New Law is changed. The New Law is not rules and numbers. It's about the heart, and the condition of your heart. And Proportion.

We are told to support those who preach the gospel, to care for the poor, and to set by in store. We are given no numbers, no formulas, only an injunction about the state of our hearts as we give.

The state of our hearts.

So I'll ask about your heart, Magnetic.

Do you feel like a cheerful giver?

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 02:43 PM
Well, first of all the Levitical priesthood, when it was done away with, was replaced with a priesthood of believers.

I agree with David Jeremiah's preaching on this matter. He says the giving in the Old Law was by rote, a matter of percentage. Giving in the New Law is changed. The New Law is not rules and numbers. It's about the heart, and the condition of your heart. And Proportion.

We are told to support those who preach the gospel, to care for the poor, and to set by in store. We are given no numbers, no formulas, only an injunction about the state of our hearts as we give.

The state of our hearts.

So I'll ask about your heart, Magnetic.

Do you feel like a cheerful giver?

If I know that what I give is going to a purpose that God delights in, then I'm glad to give to it.

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 02:52 PM
Let me be open here. I don't have a problem with my "tithes" going to help those in need, . . . however, when that which is labeled as tithes goes into a general fund, and salaries are also paid from that fund, . . . . . and the pastor lives in a gated community, . . . . . . . . . this is where I have a problem with my "tithe".

Steve M
Apr 12th 2007, 03:26 PM
Let me be open here. I don't have a problem with my "tithes" going to help those in need, . . . however, when that which is labeled as tithes goes into a general fund, and salaries are also paid from that fund, . . . . . and the pastor lives in a gated community, . . . . . . . . . this is where I have a problem with my "tithe".
It usually is support for preachers or elders that becomes a sticking point, for a couple of reasons.

A) they're usually doing very little to justify their salaries. Why do you need a full-time preacher? Paul wasn't a full-time preacher. He worked to support himself on occasion, just so people couldn't accuse him of taking advantage of the Church.

B) Judging by the 'gated community,' it sounds like your "pastor," like many, lives a life of ease.

Allow me to contrast that for you in a small way.

Imagine a small church.

Now imagine it smaller. Imagine about five or six regular members, each one between seventy and ninety.

Imagine a preacher for that Church who does all the work himself. Who prepares sermons, keeps the building cleaned and warm, prepares food. Prepares events. Runs bible studies. Tries to keep the church alive.

Imagine he tithes faithfully.

Imagine he's a little old man with terrible arthritis, who also cares for his mother, who is even older and frailer than himself.

Imagine he's in a tiny backwoods town in New England where it snows and he often has to shovel out the church himself, as well as his house, which he pays for and shares with another elderly gentleman.

Feel free to do a compare and contrast on your own preacher at any point.

I've known this preacher for some years now. He has a truly astonishing grasp of the scriptures, and a bountiful faith. In addition, he's been attending mid-week bible studies at my Church so he can learn something new and sharpen his iron with some of the knowledgable heads. He ends up teaching us something new more often than we teach him.

I had thought for some time that in my current preacher, a part-time preacher who works and works diligently for the Church I had found an example of a good preacher. When I met Brother David I had to completely revise my scale for measuring good preachers, because he blew it away.

How much do you think that tiny congregation can afford to pay him?

And how much do you think he's worth?

Now I've forgotten what point I was trying to make here. Hm. Well, basically, I think a lot of preachers are going to fall short of that example above. There are very few men of that caliber. Period. And I do think a lot of preachers are overpaid and underworked. (PS: you could help with the underworked problem; just start asking him questions after the service; you've got some good ones, and could probably give him a few sleepless nights. :lol:)

We do have a responsibility towards them, according to Paul.

But Paul himself was careful not to appear to be taking advantage of his position. Paul, an Apostle, who worked tirelessly at the gospel. That's the example set forward for preachers today.

Well. Some food for thought, but pitifully short of any really helpful conclusions.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 12th 2007, 03:44 PM
Hmm Magnetic,

i see your point, however, if you're happy with your preacher and what he teaches, but feel he lives above his means.... i'd check several things.

1) should you judge him for that
2) are you envious
3) is the concern warranted
4) should you move on to another church

Not sure you can compare the two, but if someone gave my friend a valuable gift, should i be envious of the value, or share in the joy that she got a grand gift, even if that same friend that bestowed upon her so richly didn't give me anything of similar value ?

I'm not saying you're envious, but sometimes we could possibly get the wrong idea how hard a pastor actually works, and think that their wages are above their means or whatever.....

It's a hard call, but i feel similar about the previous pastor of the church that i went to. He took frequent trips to california from our location here in the midwest, and i imagine the church had to be paying for that. I seriously do not know if those trips were necessary, or what they were about, but i never heard what they were for.

After i split from that church, i later heard there were a lot of polictics going on, and the pastor was throwing a one man show.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 12th 2007, 03:50 PM
SteveM,

That is an awesome example of a pastor.

Steve M
Apr 12th 2007, 04:26 PM
PS: this could real easily be turned into a thread about the "pastor"/elders/preachers, and what it is they're supposed to do, and what we pay them for. And, basically, the whole structure of the Church.

I belong to the Church of Christ, part of the Stone/Campbell Restorationist movement, and we do things differently than most the Protestant Church. (and our Wiki page is pretty good, too) So I tend to stress that a lot. I really don't like the idea that one guy is in charge of a congregation, and they should pay him. I have major reservations to begin with just with the word "pastor," which brings with it a whole model of Church I don't agree with. (which is why I always 'quotesy' it)

I say that just so you'll understand that I do have a horse in this race, a way I'd rather see things done. And I do think a Church run by a plurality of elders, each of whom can teach and preach in their own right, each of whom know the scriptures, would certainly ease the problem of payroll.

But... that's a whole 'nother discussion! :)

As Tanja said; sometimes the payroll can be a symptom of a larger problem. Sometimes it can be a symptom of a problem we have, with our hearts, and looking at them wrongly. Sometimes it's a symptom of a problem they have, and the way they approach the ministry.

Either way... we need to delve a little deeper. Is it supporting them that's really the problem? Or what they do with that support? Are we giving them too much money? If so, why? Maybe the church you attend has pride, and wants to say they have a preacher that can afford to live well, as it speaks well of them, and it really wasn't the preacher's idea at all. Or maybe the whole congregation thinks it's ridiculous, but he has pride and wants to live well.

Or maybe the congregation is well off and would like to treat him well, because they feel he treats them well.

I have no way of knowing. You might as well be on Mars for all I can tell from here. These are things that bear further examination.

Now; if he's getting up and preaching from Malichi and binding the tithe to the people, I think he's preaching error. And I do think that needs to be dealt with.

But... a lot of good Christians out there agree with him. A good deal of them might be in your congregation. If you say something, you could find yourself in the middle of a very big arguement.

Well. Another long post, still not too helpful...

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 04:36 PM
Hmm Magnetic,

i see your point, however, if you're happy with your preacher and what he teaches, but feel he lives above his means.... i'd check several things.

1) should you judge him for that Probably not. He truly loves God and people.
2) are you envious I would have to say 'yes'. And that is my problem. I live in a one bedroom apartment in the 'poor' part of town.
3) is the concern warranted Again, probably not. He's a very high profile person in my city because of the size of the church and the annual outreach they do.
4) should you move on to another church Should I learn to be more humble? :hmm:

Not sure you can compare the two, but if someone gave my friend a valuable gift, should i be envious of the value, or share in the joy that she got a grand gift, even if that same friend that bestowed upon her so richly didn't give me anything of similar value ?

I'm not saying you're envious, but sometimes we could possibly get the wrong idea how hard a pastor actually works, and think that their wages are above their means or whatever.....

It's a hard call, but i feel similar about the previous pastor of the church that i went to. He took frequent trips to california from our location here in the midwest, and i imagine the church had to be paying for that. I seriously do not know if those trips were necessary, or what they were about, but i never heard what they were for.

After i split from that church, i later heard there were a lot of polictics going on, and the pastor was throwing a one man show.


Shalom,
Tanja

This is more about me wanting to stay in obedience and less about where my money is going. However, there IS that part of me, the human part, that wants to interfere in my spiritual life.

Steve M
Apr 12th 2007, 04:47 PM
2) are you envious I would have to say 'yes'. And that is my problem. I live in a one bedroom apartment in the 'poor' part of town.

Hmm.... A big ol' hmmm!

John tells us in the first book of John that all sin comes one of three ways. Lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, and the pride (or the vain glory) of life.

Satan likes to get at us through our eyes, and our pride. Your eye sees this man, better off than you, and Satan loves to run out and ask, why? Why is he better off than you? You're smarter than him. You're just as good a Christian. Why should he have it easy? Why should he have it better than me?

This is a good time to remember what I said about the great preacher I know. Sometimes, most times, we don't get rewarded for what we do or how well we do. We can't always get what we want. (but if we try real hard, you just might find you get what you need)

Remember that while there are those living better than you, there are still those who would love to be you, who are going through harder times.

And, above all else... start a new thread about "pastors." Yeahs.

...actually, that probably wouldn't help. Like I said, I'm outnumbered on that one too! :lol:

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 06:28 PM
Perhaps, if I'm going to error, . . . I'd best error on the side of caution.

The church I go to does do a lot of good things. They hold a free thing every year for the community, help out single mothers, etc. The pastor is a good man.

The thing is, 10% on what I make, before taxes, ends up being as much as a payment on something. And that's not just the fact of giving to a worthy cause, but a monthly payment that I really don't have much say as to where it goes. So, it ends up back to the my original thought. Are we commanded, under the new coventant or else, to give 10% of what we make?

Sold Out
Apr 12th 2007, 07:03 PM
Malachi 3:8-10,"Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

There is a difference between tithes & offerings. Tithes we pay off of our INCOME...offerings are from our abundance or blessings.

The word tithe simply means 'tenth'.

I'm on the fence with the whole tithing issue. Some say 10% is Old Testament. Either way God wants our hearts, not our money. So if you are having trouble giving to the work of God, then it is a heart problem.

I Cor 9:14, "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel."

If your pastor feeding you spiritually and reaching the lost, then you should feed him physically.

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 08:50 PM
Sold Out, it seems that Malachi was speaking to Levitical priest when it say about "robbing God". Not the common person. I've eluded to this a few posts up.

Sold Out
Apr 12th 2007, 08:58 PM
Sold Out, it seems that Malachi was speaking to Levitical priest when it say about "robbing God". Not the common person. I've eluded to this a few posts up.

That's possible, but like I said, I'm on the fence with the 10%.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 12th 2007, 09:19 PM
Sold Out, it seems that Malachi was speaking to Levitical priest when it say about "robbing God". Not the common person. I've eluded to this a few posts up.How do you interpret that as just for the priests. When you read the book of Malachi it is clearly speaking to the people of Israel, of which now I am through adoption. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else what they must do but I see God tell me to test Him and see if He won't bless me abundantly, and I will testify that He has; far beyond what I would have expected just 8 and a half years ago when I took Him up on the challenge.

Malachi 3:10-11
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
11 “ And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

What an awesome promise He has given us! Accentuate the positive in this passage, not the negative. Even if you don't see the curse, the promise seems clear! Not an obligation but an opportunity!

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 12th 2007, 09:26 PM
How do you interpret that as just for the priests. When you read the book of Malachi it is clearly speaking to the people of Israel, of which now I am through adoption. I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else what they must do but I see God tell me to test Him and see if He won't bless me abundantly, and I will testify that He has; far beyond what I would have expected just 8 and a half years ago when I took Him up on the challenge.

Malachi 3:10-11
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
11 “ And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,”
Says the LORD of hosts.

What an awesome promise He has given us! Accentuate the positive in this passage, not the negative. Even if you don't see the curse, the promise seems clear! Not an obligation but an opportunity!

God Bless!

Well, that's kind of the source of my problem, Studyin. There are those that say (and there was a web site given in my thread about church instruments and tithes) that Malachi was speaking to everyone, but then turned to directly speak to the Priests, of which the verses on tithing was among those given to just the Levitical priests. Do a search on my name for the past month or so, and look at the link in that post of mine.

I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong. What I am intersted in is DOING what is right, and not following the doctrines of men and legalism, when the Bible never states it as a law. And then, if that's the case, if this Old Testiment law is still valid for the New Testiment.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 12th 2007, 10:00 PM
Actually, I'm attempting look at the situation in a way that is being neither obligatory or legalistic. You do whatever you like. I have made the choice to take God up on His challenge and He has been more than faithful! I didn't quote the robbing God verse, I quoted the verses with promise. As for it being for the priests, we are now kings and priests so either way, I feel it is for me. If you do not feel the opportunity is for you, it does not affect your salvation as I interpret scripture. Each individual has to make their own choice in this. As I've already testified, I never gave to get anything, but like a child when I came to Messiah I just wanted to dive into everything. I know some who may tithe as a chore but I don't believe that would fit into this because it has to be with a cheerful heart. Like the difference between the woman with two mites and the man who gave a tenth as an obligation in haughtiness. It's ALL about the heart!

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 12th 2007, 11:39 PM
Magnetic,
seems like the whole tithing issue with you really boils down to being happy with what you got, as opposed to be envious, and trusting God to provide for all of your needs.

Once you're happy with what you've got, and once you trust God to the fullest, (i myself am getting there slowly) then the tithing issue will fall into place for you.

Until then i recomend you do what you can and maybe add a fraction more to it, to see what happens.

Shalom,
Tanja

Magnetic
Apr 13th 2007, 02:25 PM
Thanks everyone for your posts to me. (Just realized that I didn't start this thread! :hmm: . . . :blush: )

From what I've gone through, these past 6 months [my marriage ending], I admit that I have gone through the "doubting God" phase that most walk through. As I said a few posts up, I always gave my tithe, before taxes, yet my life is far from blessed. Financially I'm doing fine, but relationally, I'm at rock bottom, no blessings flowing there. To be honest, a few weeks ago, I may have taken the "test me and see if I won't pour out on you a blessings that you won't be able to contain", looked at how my life has falled apart, and decided that "God didn't pass the test". I'm just being honest here. When I see the word "blessings", I have always concluded that those "blessings" weren't just monitary, so when my marriage fell apart,. . . and continued to do so, . . . . and are continuing to do so even now, I saw that as being far from a blessing, even though I was faithful in my tithes.

Having said that, I was not being all that faithful to God in the way I lived. Not that I did bad things, but just the way I thought (and there are many threads on this board that are testimony of that time). So, even though I was still giving tithes, I suppose it wasn't all that meaningful coming from one who doubted.

All that to say, now that I have been getting back to God, due to this trial, and still kept up the tithe every week, yet still saw no blessings, that is when I started thinking that "the test was lost". Of course, it was just thoughts brought on because of a severe emotional experience, and if I look at this all logically, it was never God's fault that my wife left me, but her own problems.

I am really rambling here! :blush:

Back to tithing, and what I should do, I believe that much of my problem is one of "self preservation". Trying to keep myself safe, looking out for myself. Jesusinmyheart may have gotten it right when she said that there is a trust issue. I will admit to having a trust issue in my life.

But I will have to say that (and I am ashamed to say), there may be some "greed", "fear", . . . even "desire", which causes me to consider ending my weekly tithe. When I look at the amount that I tithe, 10% before taxes, and add them up for the month, I think to myself, "I could pay for a new _________ with that much money." Of course, that is completely selfish, and the facts are, what the church may use my money for may help some one who is in much greater need than my desire to pay for "purchase X". But I believe that (and need to deal with) I am in that "self preservation" mode, because of what I've gone through, and need to break out of it.

Last night, I made out a check for the last two weeks, and this week. The truth is, even with what I've gone through, and am going through even now, . . . . I am still blessed more than probably much of the world.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 13th 2007, 04:49 PM
Hey,
don't beat yourself up, if you're actually tithing on a regular basis, at least you're doing it.... God will work on you, til you've become what He wanted you to,.....which reminds me that clay is pretty submissive, and doesn't resist what He puts in our hearts....

Magnetic
Apr 13th 2007, 05:56 PM
Hey,
don't beat yourself up, if you're actually tithing on a regular basis, at least you're doing it.... God will work on you, til you've become what He wanted you to,.....which reminds me that clay is pretty submissive, and doesn't resist what He puts in our hearts..........until it gets all dried out and cracked. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 13th 2007, 08:21 PM
LOL, that's a throught...makes me think about what the water really signifies in the bible.

I'd venture to say God will not allow those that are His to dry up and crack, he will keep adding water to them so they can be formed till all is finished. Just like a potter does.

And the kiln can't be too hot and the pot can't be burned for too long or the endproduct will crack....
Some things for you to ponder ;)

Studyin'2Show
Apr 13th 2007, 08:50 PM
Hey Mag, Tanja is right on with this one. Don't beat yourself up over this issue. Do what you believe, deep down, is right. My brother went through a divorce while he was a tither but when he analyzed the situation he realized that his relationship did not begin on a solid godly foundation but rather the opposite. He was a senior when he got his girlfriend at the time pregnant. They got married to try to make things right by through two kids and seven years it just didn't work. Here's a scripture:

Psalm 127:1 - Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city,
The watchman stays awake in vain.

I don't know your situation, but if God was not the author of the union, He would not be able to bless it even if he IS blessing you financially. Does that make sense? Like I said, I don't know all the details in your situation so this may not apply to what you've gone through but if it does, that would show that God may have been unable to bless the union. Now, I hope I'm not rambling! :D I have always liked you even when we were on opposite sides of a debate and even at times if we still are, because it always felt like you had a passion for what you believed (whether I agreed or not ;)). Anyway, it's been a couple of years since the divorce and he is doing great with his career, he and his ex-wife have gotten over the bitterness, and he has met someone who may be the godly woman God had always intended for him. There's no wedding bells yet but...... :P My point is that if this is God's will He will be able to bless this union. Anyway, I hope this encourages you in what you're dealing with my friend.

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 13th 2007, 09:26 PM
Thanks, Studyin. I hope that we can have some more friendly debates in the future. I still have my "hangups" that I'm sure you'd love to have words with. ;)

I know that God can still bless what is my marriage, still. If not, I can only have faith and hope that God brings that TRUE Godly woman along, . . . though I have a real hard time believing that. . . . . . . . . uh, . . but I see this is a "tithing" thread, not a "future mate" thread. :blush:

Studyin'2Show
Apr 13th 2007, 09:40 PM
I know that God can still bless what is my marriage, still. If not, I can only have faith and hope that God brings that TRUE Godly woman along, . . . though I have a real hard time believing that. . . . . . . . . uh, . . but I see this is a "tithing" thread, not a "future mate" thread. :blush:True! It's not my intention to derail the thread so I'll leave it at that ;). I just wanted to encourage my brother in the Lord! Now, carry on with this non-salvational issue. :P

dan
Apr 15th 2007, 05:21 AM
Apparently, there is a verse in the Bible that says it is required of us to donate 10% of our earnings to God. Does this seem odd to any of you? It seems like all the evil cults out there require their members to do the same type of thing.

What's the deal?

... Surprise me that cults mimic the churches of the Living God? No.

Somewhere in the NT it says that a Preacher Of The Truth is worth feeding. Oh yes:

MT 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
MT 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
MT 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
MT 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
MT 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
MT 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

There is an OT scripture that warns not to feed those that don't remember the name of God's Holy Mountain (Saudi Arabia's Mt. Bedr) but that is quite controversial.

Magnetic
Apr 20th 2007, 01:10 PM
I asked my church about the site:

http://awildernessvoice.com/RethinkTithe1.html

And this is what they replied:


The website you mentioned makes a gross error when it comes to interpreting what was done with the tithe on the part of the worshipper. In the event that a worshipper lived too far from the Temple to bring his sacrifice to the temple, he could sell his crops/livestock and then go the Temple and buy crops and livestock to offer as part of his sacrifice to the Lord. A portion of some of the sacrifices (i.e., Fellowship offerings Leviticus 7:11-19) could be eaten by the worshipper in the presence of the Lord but there were strict guidelines. Other offerings belonged exclusively to the priests (grain offering Leviticus 2:4-10) and to the Levites (Numbers 18:8-32). When you read those passages you will see that the website in question is errant.

As for tithing, it is a pattern of righteous people even before the Law (Abraham Genesis 14 and Jacob Genesis 32). You could say that in those instances when these righteous people came in contact with God and His presence they responded by tithing. Later that understanding is formalized with a commandment in Leviticus 27:30 which states, "A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord (v.32) the entire tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod—will be holy to the Lord." Notice in those verses the tithe belongs not to the worshipper but to the Lord whether or not the worshipper chooses to give it to God...it is God's which is why the Lord says they were stealing from Him when they withheld the tithe in Malachi 3:8-10.

Jesus declared all food clean in Mark 7:19. He could have just as easily declared no need to tithe, but in Matthew 23:23 He rebuked the Pharisees because they tithed but didn't show mercy and, in effect, He said they should have both tithed and shown mercy which, in effect, endorsed the concept of tithing.

We won't argue with people about the tithe but it is clearly taught in Scripture, and by teaching financial principles of giving to people, we are opening the door to God's blessing in their lives—both financial blessings and other blessings He provides (2 Corinthians 9:6-11).

Would you still favor the website, or would you favor what the pastor of my church said about the content of the website?

Comments?

Steve M
Apr 20th 2007, 05:13 PM
Would you still favor the website, or would you favor what the pastor of my church said about the content of the website?

Comments?


We won't argue with people about the tithe but it is clearly taught in Scripture, and by teaching financial principles of giving to people, we are opening the door to God's blessing in their lives—both financial blessings and other blessings He provides (2 Corinthians 9:6-11).

I will agree with him that the way of looking at the tithe that the website showed was flawed.

I will disagree strongly with what he said right above me, anyhow...

Magnetic
Apr 20th 2007, 05:36 PM
Please. . . continue, Steve. :confused

Steve M
Apr 20th 2007, 08:16 PM
Well, I don't have too much time, but I'll lay out my points very quickly.

1) Tithes supported the church and the state. Simultaneously, being a theocracy.

2) He cited 1 Corinthians 9, which I cited earlier to show my objections to subjecting Christians to a tithe. There's a little bit of friction there.


As for tithing, it is a pattern of righteous people even before the Law (Abraham Genesis 14 and Jacob Genesis 32). You could say that in those instances when these righteous people came in contact with God and His presence they responded by tithing. Later that understanding is formalized with a commandment in Leviticus 27:30 which states, "A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord (v.32) the entire tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod—will be holy to the Lord." Notice in those verses the tithe belongs not to the worshipper but to the Lord whether or not the worshipper chooses to give it to God...it is God's which is why the Lord says they were stealing from Him when they withheld the tithe in Malachi 3:8-10.


To those under that law, perhaps.


Jesus declared all food clean in Mark 7:19. He could have just as easily declared no need to tithe, but in Matthew 23:23 He rebuked the Pharisees because they tithed but didn't show mercy and, in effect, He said they should have both tithed and shown mercy which, in effect, endorsed the concept of tithing.


I disagree. That's the same logic that said that by returning Onesimus Paul was condoning slavery and saying it should live on as an institution. It was the law of the land; Jesus was very clear about following the law of the land. Would he have told them to defy it?



We won't argue with people about the tithe but it is clearly taught in Scripture, and by teaching financial principles of giving to people, we are opening the door to God's blessing in their lives—both financial blessings and other blessings He provides (2 Corinthians 9:6-11).

Tithing brings blessings... well, I disagree.

But as I said before; the Church at large is SPLIT on tithing. A lot, a LOT of people disagree with me.

Magnetic
Apr 20th 2007, 08:27 PM
Thanks for replying, Steve. Whenever you have more time, I'd like to hear more of what you say. But you would think that if there was something that we are commanded, there wouldn't be such a diversity in thought about it. :hmm:

I agree that we are no longer under the law, which included (as you pointed out) slavery.

I just have a big problem with decrees when there are too many people that have differing opinions or even disagreements on. :B

I suppose I could always stop tithing and see what befalls me. :hmm: :dunno:

Centurionoflight
Apr 20th 2007, 09:31 PM
Magnetic


I suppose I could always stop tithing and see what befalls me.

Sounds to me more like a protection payment;

Than free will worship thru giving

Studyin'2Show
Apr 20th 2007, 10:22 PM
Magnetic

Sounds to me more like a protection payment;

Than free will worship thru givingTrue! If you are tithing because you HAVE TO, I say stop. It means nothing so you're just wasting your time. God knows the heart so He knows the 'why' to everything we do. Pray and be led by the Spirit! I can testify as an almost forty year old that spent the first three quarters of my life not tithing and now the last quarter tithing, it is most DEFINITELY been a huge blessing for me. But it was NEVER about what I could get because of it.

God Bless!

Centurionoflight
Apr 21st 2007, 12:03 AM
Studyin'2Show



True! If you are tithing because you HAVE TO, I say stop. It means nothing so you're just wasting your time. God knows the heart so He knows the 'why' to everything we do. Pray and be led by the Spirit! I can testify as an almost forty year old that spent the first three quarters of my life not tithing and now the last quarter tithing, it is most DEFINITELY been a huge blessing for me. But it was NEVER about what I could get because of it.



I dont "tithe" a nickel and my life also is truly blessed..

Free will giving - yes.
Tithe - never.

Steve M
Apr 21st 2007, 12:29 AM
Thanks for replying, Steve. Whenever you have more time, I'd like to hear more of what you say. But you would think that if there was something that we are commanded, there wouldn't be such a diversity in thought about it. :hmm:

I agree that we are no longer under the law, which included (as you pointed out) slavery.

I just have a big problem with decrees when there are too many people that have differing opinions or even disagreements on. :B

I suppose I could always stop tithing and see what befalls me. :hmm: :dunno:
Heh; I'd be a bad example to follow there. I've tithed on and off, as I'd had the financial means; I've seen great blessings both in times of tithing and in times when I gave less, as I purposed.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 21st 2007, 12:46 AM
Studyin'2Show

I dont "tithe" a nickel and my life also is truly blessed..

Free will giving - yes.
Tithe - never.I am truly happy for you. As I said, I can only speak for myself. I was actually just speaking to a friend about this very subject. Just five years ago my husband, my three children and I were living in two small bedrooms in my in-laws small run-down inner-city house with no car, no savings, no stability at all. Since that time both my husband and I made a commitment together to tithe AS our freewill offering, not as an obligation. Our life was truly blessed then, with no home, no car, no savings. We had each other but more importantly we had come to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Now, the windows of heaven have been opened and He is pouring out a blessing so great that it is overflowing!

Malachi 3:10
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

As I said I can only speak to my experience, and in my experience, our decision to tithe was the turning point.

God Bless!

Centurionoflight
Apr 21st 2007, 08:15 AM
I am truly happy for you. As I said, I can only speak for myself. I was actually just speaking to a friend about this very subject. Just five years ago my husband, my three children and I were living in two small bedrooms in my in-laws small run-down inner-city house with no car, no savings, no stability at all. Since that time both my husband and I made a commitment together to tithe AS our freewill offering, not as an obligation. Our life was truly blessed then, with no home, no car, no savings. We had each other but more importantly we had come to have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior.

Now, the windows of heaven have been opened and He is pouring out a blessing so great that it is overflowing!



And my sisten-in-law family tithes all the time; and they are as poor as poor can be. In fact they should be using their cash on their family rather than supporting some church.

1 Timothy 5:8

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Giving is not some lottery ticket to bribe God for the goodies.
When I give;
I dont care if God blesses me or not;
I dont even think of such things other than I am helping with a EXACT need at the time.
I have been givin Doctrine by the pastor; which I have applied and gained growth in spirit; so a return to the pastor for that growth so that he can study to grow more is a very solid reason for giving.

This is well with in biblical thinking of the Church

1 cor 9


11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Now if a pastor fails to sow any thing spiritual;
I give nothing.
Tithing removes that accountability of the pastor to sow of the spirit.




Another thought;

Perhaps when your friends started to "tithe"; they actually had to budget; where before they didnt. That lead to better money control.



Malachi 3:10
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.





And this passage is about a tax system;
A tithe is not free will.

2 cor 9

7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.


By stating we "need" or should tithe creates compulsion and legalism.

It ignores worship thru free willed giving, for another tax.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 21st 2007, 02:06 PM
And my sisten-in-law family tithes all the time; and they are as poor as poor can be. In fact they should be using their cash on their family rather than supporting some church.As I've said before, God knows the heart. Neither you or I know your sister-in-laws heart or her motivations. There are many, especially in recent years that have falsely taught that there is some formula to financial wealth by giving to a particular ministry. I have never bought into this theory and would advise any one who has to stop. God will not be mocked or bribed, as you so correctly mentioned. There is no magic 30, 60, 100 fold return on your spiritual hush money, so to speak. That can never be what it's about.

God Bless!

Centurionoflight
Apr 22nd 2007, 04:00 AM
I really think this idea here is of great merit.

Tithing removes that accountability of the pastor to sow of the spirit.


Pastors instead of sowing the spirit; go on different programs to get people to tithe.

If the cash will roll in no mater what; why study?

Christian Holzman
Apr 22nd 2007, 07:12 AM
this has been a topic of many debates on this site and a few others. I have come the the conclusion that it is more how you feel lead to do. Dont just limit yourself to 10% give what God leaves you to give to who ever He leads you to give to. If you are looking for scripture so that you dont have to give than just dont give. Because you are not giving out of how you are being lead to give but rather what you are required to give. You give out of love and want, not out of requirement. Dont try to use scripture to give or not to give, give by what your heart shows you.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 22nd 2007, 01:17 PM
In my prior church, I don't think this subject was EVER preached from the pulpit. Two different Sundays (like one in the Spring and one in the Fall) out of the year it would be a Sunday School lesson and there would be a little leaflet included in the bulletin. Thankfully, I've never been involved in a church that makes anyone feel inadequate because of what they choose to give. Have you guys really had this be such a major issue at your churches? I think this is more something that like Christian Holzman said, should be something you are led to do. I was led to tithe. Does that mean I only give 10%? Not at all! I give as I am led to give, the tenth is just where I start out. I've heard of those who have been so blessed that they eventually give as much as 90-100% of their earnings to God, to support the teaching and preaching of His word. That's what I would eventually like to get to and if it be the Lord's will, I'm sure I will.

God Bless1

joztok
Apr 22nd 2007, 01:54 PM
People need to tithe..because if we dont the churches will shut down. And we can also "tithe" in a sense by offering our time. Go volunteer to do something for your church. And do it cheerfully. The L-rd loves a cheerful giver.
If churches shut down that would be great! It means God can finance His church and bless His bride rather than the bride be dependant on the world.
It's ironic. It's impossible to shut down THE church due to lack of money. It will still function just as strongly, in fact, function more strongly due that we aren't depending on money for events but God. ;)

Studyin'2Show
Apr 22nd 2007, 02:50 PM
If churches shut down that would be great! It means God can finance His church and bless His bride rather than the bride be dependant on the world.
It's ironic. It's impossible to shut down THE church due to lack of money. It will still function just as strongly, in fact, function more strongly due that we aren't depending on money for events but God. ;)We are, the Church, the buildings are just where we fellowship together with other like-minded people. At this time I attend a house fellowship that happens to be in my home. In your opinion, should ALL fellowships ceases to be? :hmm: Or just the ones with ideas you don't agree with?

Just curious.

jiggyfly
Apr 22nd 2007, 03:02 PM
In my prior church, I don't think this subject was EVER preached from the pulpit. Two different Sundays (like one in the Spring and one in the Fall) out of the year it would be a Sunday School lesson and there would be a little leaflet included in the bulletin. Thankfully, I've never been involved in a church that makes anyone feel inadequate because of what they choose to give. Have you guys really had this be such a major issue at your churches? I think this is more something that like Christian Holzman said, should be something you are led to do. I was led to tithe. Does that mean I only give 10%? Not at all! I give as I am led to give, the tenth is just where I start out. I've heard of those who have been so blessed that they eventually give as much as 90-100% of their earnings to God, to support the teaching and preaching of His word. That's what I would eventually like to get to and if it be the Lord's will, I'm sure I will.


God Bless1

How do these people support and take care of their families? What would God do with money?

awestruckchild
Apr 22nd 2007, 03:42 PM
The money you recieve in provision from God is His money. He generously provides and after you recieve the Spirit, the Spirit will guide you in where you are to help. I have never attended a church except when I was a child and my dad took me, but when I became concerned about tithing, the Spirit led me to an actual person I was supposed to tithe to.
I laugh now when I think about the legalistic way I began to help this man and his familly financially. When I recieved a check for a job, I would first subtract taxes, then supplies I spent on performing the job. I reasoned that we were told in the Bible to pay our taxes and submit to the government God set in place. Then I reasoned that supplies I had to buy was money I would never see, so how could I tithe on it?
But oh how He works on our hearts and minds. When I did this, I had the thought in my mind that if I tithed on my gross income, I would never make the bills. But ever so strangely, He led me to see that the money was not mine and I was not truly believing in His power to provide if I worried about my provision first and what He told me to do second. He led me to see that in subtracting taxes and supplies, He was not getting the first tenth, he was third in line.
It was scary but I was bound and determined to obey Him in what I had just been shown, so I began to tithe on my gross and honor Him by recognizing the money was His and in trusting for my provision.
The strangest and most wonderful things began to occur. I got a ongoing commercial job just poured into my lap that enabled me to make in one day what I normally made in almost a week. Please understand when I say it was poured into my lap that this was not a job I had sought out! And now I had more provision financially and scads more leisure time to spend with Him and His Word.
I have some concern in sharing this story that someone who has not yet recieved the Spirit might be led the wrong way and begin to tithe to a church or person on their own instead of asking for guidance and then waiting for His instruction.
I also have some concern that someone who has not yet recieved the Spirit will read this and begin a tithe with the wrong reason in their heart. I want to clearly state that I did not do this with the heart intent to recieve more from Him. I did it out of obedience and trust that His promise to provide for me was truly something I could count on. I believe it all hinged on my saying - "Lord, this is scary but I am going to depend on your promise to provide and I am going to obey what I believe You have instructed me to do with the trust that if I am imagining I have heard this from You, you will let me know and guide me away from it."
He will provide over and above if you obey out of love and trust and if you wait for Him to guide you.

diffangle
Apr 22nd 2007, 04:18 PM
And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O YHWH, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before YHWH thy Elohim, and worship before YHWH thy Elohim. -Deut. 26:10

No percentage is mentioned.

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, [which is] the year of tithing, and hast given [it] unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled; -Deut 26:12

At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay [it] up within thy gates:
-Deut. 14:28

Tithing is done every third year.


And all the tithe of the land, [whether] of the seed of the land, [or] of the fruit of the tree, [is] YHWH'S: [it is] holy unto YHWH. -Lev. 27:30

The tithe is food.

And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto YHWH. -Lev 27:32

It was the tenth animal that passed under the rod that was tithed. If someone only had nine animals then they didn't have to tithe their flock.

Preacher's love to quote Malachi 3:8 to their congregation's:

Will a man rob YHWH? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

What they don't tell you is the chapter and entire book for that matter is speaking directly to the Priests who rob Him,the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right].

A son honoureth [his] father, and a servant his master: if then I a father, where [is] mine honour? and if I [be] a master, where [is] my fear? saith YHWH of hosts unto you,[B] O priests, that despise My name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised Thy name? -Mal 1:6

And now, O ye priests, this commandment [is] for you. -Mal. 2:1

But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi(priests), saith YHWH of hosts. -Mal. 2:8

And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi)priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto YHWH an offering in righteousness. -Mal. 3:3

Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed Me, [even] this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith YHWH of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. -Mal.3:9&10

The Priests had and have a tendancy to rob Him by robbing widows, orphans, and the needy/this whole nation. They'd rather spend the money on fancy suits, watches, cars, houses, and expensive church facilities. :cry:

Studyin'2Show
Apr 22nd 2007, 04:45 PM
How do these people support and take care of their families? What would God do with money?These are not poor people. These are people that have already been so blessed they have more than enough already. The person who I had heard was eventually able to give 100% as an offering was William Colgate. I'm sure you can imagine that he still took care of his family quite well. He started at 10% and began giving more and more through his lifetime as the Lord blessed him more and more, until in his last years he was able to give 100%. He said that it seemed that the more he gave, the more he prospered. You can actually do a Google search to find out more but there's a sniglet on the bottom of this link that talks about it.

http://www.donelson.org/pocket/pp-981122.html

God Bless!

Oh, BTW, don't tithe if you're not led. It's not about obligation. ;)

jiggyfly
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:07 AM
Here is a good link concerning the tithing subject.
http://stoptithing.com/

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:41 AM
He said that it seemed that the more he gave, the more he prospered.


That's how it's been in our life. God is awesome!

We're close to the 10% mark and as we prospered more over these past years the tithe goes up. God's is true to His word and in a way this is just another element of my life where God shows us His hand in my life and through all the other blessings in our lives.

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:49 AM
Here is a good link concerning the tithing subject.

It's all between the person and God, whatever that they can give with a happy heart.

Why would anyone want to restrict God's blessing in their life. A person who gives a dollar a week is just as blessed as a person who gives $1000 dollars a week if that is what they can afford and also what they give with a happy heart. He will bless them each.

Magnetic
Apr 23rd 2007, 01:55 PM
My question is less about "what I give with a happy heart" and more about "what I am commanded to give (tithe)" and whether or not I am cursed if I don't give it. Again, regardless of my heart.

Here's another way to look at my point of this topic. It's about the legalism of it. If God commands a tithe, then I am happy to give it. If the church has created something that is NOT a command from God, yet constantly preaches that it is, then this is where I have the problem. . . . with how PEOPLE have placed a mentality of legalism on an act of giving. It's preached all the time, and the preacher will celebrate the "praise report" from someone who was doing poorly, started tithing, then God blessed them. Or preaching that you are sinning when you don't tithe because "God doesn't allow thieves in Heaven", or something like that.

This topic, for me, also hits on another topic that will have to be for another thread, but is another paramount issue.

Slug1
Apr 23rd 2007, 02:01 PM
Yeah, I know what you mean and I've been to many churches (being moved around by the military) and the ones that have pastors that say to give what God has placed in your heart to give vs. You Must Give... the one's where the people give what is placed on their hearts, do much better all around.

Magnetic
Apr 23rd 2007, 02:47 PM
A few points:

Yes, God loves a cheerful giver. I'd much rather get something from someone who was happy to give it to me.

I'm not sure I would care for a gift that I required someone to give me. Not if I want to feel good about it.

If I feel like cheerfully giving less than 10%, when 10% is what keeps me from being a "thief", than which of these is better than the other? Cheerfully giving 5% and being a thief for not giving 10%, or giving 10% out of duty to keep from being a thief in God's eyes (even if the concept has been misrepresented by the church for centuries)?

Centurionoflight
Apr 23rd 2007, 04:40 PM
JC33andDivine




People need to tithe..because if we dont the churches will shut down.

If their doctrine is false; then what better way for them to dis-appear.
For them to stay open based on fleecing their flock; is that really a fellowship that shoudl stay open?




Studyin'2Show



The person who I had heard was eventually able to give 100% as an offering was William Colgate. I'm sure you can imagine that he still took care of his family quite well. He started at 10% and began giving more and more through his lifetime as the Lord blessed him more and more, until in his last years he was able to give 100%. He said that it seemed that the more he gave, the more he prospered. You can actually do a Google search to find out more but there's a sniglet on the bottom of this link that talks about it.

Sorry;
But that just sounds too much like some late night telemarketing get rich fast pitch.


Some guy {one who you can never corner and question} did such and such and they are blessed.
So now you do such and such {Usally means you cough up some cash} and you also will be blessed{based on the cash you put into it}.

It ignores that there may have been other factors to the prosperity;


Perhaps their tithing was a anchor to their gain; rather than a blessing.

They could have done so much more; if they would have focused on the spirit rather than on the cash.

Soon they are dead; and all that is left is disorder as people fight to get the left overs.
Thus a focus on the spirit is needed; for riches of the spirit we can take with us.

Also;

If material blessings only occur to those who tithe; then explain how there are so many unbelievers who have material wealth.


Why would anyone want to restrict God's blessing in their life.

So Gods blessings are based on how much of our pathetic cash we give him?

This I feel removes the ascept of the spirit and the focus we should have on spiritual growth.

God is a spirit

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The worsip must be thru the spirit; not what percent of our cash we "give" him.



Plus another thing;

If some guy is bragging about what percent he gives God; is that not looking for praise of men?
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Christians sure seem to be fast to let you know they tithe; like othrs should be impressed with that.

We are told we should give in secret; not to impress each other with our givings.

Mat 6

4so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2007, 10:16 PM
Centurianoflight, can I ask you a question? Why would you have any problem with ME tithing? Not once have I said that you or anyone else has to tithe, in fact, I've said quite the opposite. It is a fact that there are many well documented 70+% tithers. William Colgate is just the one that I remembered hearing about and was able to find a link for. There are others I have heard about like Rockefeller, Kraft, Heinz, Woolworth, but you're right, you can't ask them to make sure it's true. But you can ask me, or Slug, or anyone else here who has given their testimony without expecting a single thing in return. This is less about a command and more about renewing our minds to think like the kingdom of heaven. The world tells us to hold on tight to what we've got, but things are different in the kingdom.

Luke 6:38 - Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

I submit that this kingdom principle works in all things, from love to forgiveness, from friendship to finances; across the board. If you don't want to give to a local church, then take care of widows and orphans or whatever. It's about the heart. Be led by the Spirit. Remember, the Law is now on our hearts, not written in stone. It's more personal than that. Actually, when tv preachers promise a return on your 'spiritual' investment or ask for money for this or that it always seems odd to me. God knows what their ministry needs so if it's Him, He will provide, just as He has done for the ministries I have worked with and work with now. As Slug said, it is the ones that don't ask that are more spiritually effective.

God Bless!

Centurionoflight
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:07 PM
Studyin'2Show



Why would you have any problem with ME tithing?

Its your cash; do what ever you want.

My issue comes in when one states it is doctrinal to tithe.

OR

They state if you dont give then you arent saved.





It is a fact that there are many well documented 70+% tithers.


So much for giving in secret.


This is less about a command and more about renewing our minds to think like the kingdom of heaven. The world tells us to hold on tight to what we've got, but things are different in the kingdom.

The world also tells us;

We must give to help the poor;

It is wrong for you to have so much while they suffer.
Here is a little communism to help you feel more gracious.

Here is a guilt trip at dinner time;
See!!
Some bloated and fly infested baby in a 2 bit African country.
Dont you feel real guilty now, how can you call your self christian while this goes on.
This will help you rich fat Americans to give.

When the the thinking of man and the trends of the church cross; that makes me question the intents.



If you don't want to give to a local church, then take care of widows and orphans or whatever.


Why is there such a rush to throw money around?

Studyin'2Show
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:53 PM
Studyin'2Show

Its your cash; do what ever you want.

My issue comes in when one states it is doctrinal to tithe.

OR

They state if you dont give then you arent saved.No, it's not my money. Everything I have is His. Please quote the post where I have said it is a doctrinal issue that you MUST tithe? Take your time and look carefully. I have NEVER said that.

Please point out where ANYONE here has said you are not saved if you don't tithe! Please, I'd like to see who in this thread has said that. It seems that you must be in discussion with people or with doctrine you have encountered in the past, not with those of us here. There seems to be a lot of animosity of this issue, but again, not with us or what we've ACTUALLY said. Maybe with what you think we mean. Have you been involved in a legalistic ministry at some point? Just curious. :hmm:

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 12:30 AM
Studyin'2Show



No, it's not my money. Everything I have is His. Please quote the post where I have said it is a doctrinal issue that you MUST tithe? Take your time and look carefully. I have NEVER said that.


I wasnt addressing you directly on that;



Please point out where ANYONE here has said you are not saved if you don't tithe! Please, I'd like to see who in this thread has said that. It seems that you must be in discussion with people or with doctrine you have encountered in the past, not with those of us here. There seems to be a lot of animosity of this issue, but again, not with us or what we've ACTUALLY said. Maybe with what you think we mean.


Some threads where the idea of giving has come up; these things have actually been said.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=83119&page=6
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=82047&page=4




Have you been involved in a legalistic ministry at some point? Just curious.


Most denominations have a touch of legalism with in them.

If it takes focus off Christ and onto the man; then perhaps it needs a closer look for legalism.

awestruckchild
Apr 24th 2007, 02:39 AM
I believe you have just clobbered us over the head with doctrine. Please just let us have our discussion and don't clobber us over the head. There are plenty of threads where people want endless debate and pharisaical discourse on wording and nit-picking. I finally found a conversation with a wonderful spirit led woman who I really wanted to talk more with.
I was not bragging about my tithing - I was bragging about my glorious and loving God who has rewarded me so richly for my obedience. I was sharing some of the things He has taught me and when He gives me wisdom I thank Him for it and love to share. I would never dream of clobbering someone with His wisdom.
I don't think she deserved to be clobbered either. Please, if you have some wisdom to share that He has given you personally, just tell us, we want to hear what you have to say, but we don't want to get dragged into maniacal scriptural comparisons and contrasts and miss Him speaking to us and through each other.
Please don't get offended at me. You are quite intelligent and knowledgeable but I desire and was enjoying speaking of our experiences with Abba - true personal experience. I would also love to hear about your experiences with Him but I don't want to be clobbered, I want a deeper conversation one on one with another human about Him and what He has taught us about tithing.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 02:55 AM
Studyin'2Show

I wasnt addressing you directly on that;

Some threads where the idea of giving has come up; these things have actually been said.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=83119&page=6
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=82047&page=4

Most denominations have a touch of legalism with in them.

If it takes focus off Christ and onto the man; then perhaps it needs a closer look for legalism.When I have a discussion, I have it with the people in the discussion. Not with other people from past discussions. And no, not EVERY church has legalism. In the Southern Baptist church I attended before our house fellowship, this subject was NEVER preached from the pulpit! NEVER! And our current fellowship is not legalistic at all! We need to start edifying each other in the body of Christ, no matter what fellowship or denomination we each attend.

God Bless!

Oh, and BTW, I didn't see anyone say that you are not saved for not tithing. Next time just give a link to the particular post not the whole page ;)

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 02:56 AM
paintdiva


I believe you have just clobbered us over the head with doctrine. Please just let us have our discussion and don't clobber us over the head. There are plenty of threads where people want endless debate and pharisaical discourse on wording and nit-picking.


Yeah;

Lets not confuse the issue with the facts.



I was not bragging about my tithing - I was bragging about my glorious and loving God who has rewarded me so richly for my obedience.


Obedience for what?
Oh yeah tithing.
Something that is not givin as a command for us to follow.
Therefore why claim obedience; if its not a command?



Please don't get offended at me. You are quite intelligent and knowledgeable but I desire and was enjoying speaking of our experiences with Abba - true personal experience. I would also love to hear about your experiences with Him but I don't want to be clobbered, I want a deeper conversation one on one with another human about Him and what He has taught us about tithing.


Ok; we are discussing.

Fact is; Tithing is not for believers today;

It is a form of complusion that is not in line with free will giving.

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 02:59 AM
Studyin'2Show



When I have a discussion, I have it with the people in the discussion. Not with other people from past discussions. And no, not EVERY church has legalism. In the Southern Baptist church I attended before our house fellowship, this subject was NEVER preached from the pulpit! NEVER! And our current fellowship is not legalistic at all! We need to start edifying each other in the body of Christ, no matter what fellowship or denomination we each attend.


Some of the same players of those past discussion are watching or partaking in this one.

On denominations;

What denomination was Paul or Peter?

We should not focus on this denomination or that one; denomonations place a layer of sinful men between the pastor and God.

awestruckchild
Apr 24th 2007, 03:10 AM
Listen, brother, I am not going to follow what you are telling me you have read to ignore and disregard a direct leading from God. It's just never going to happen because I fear and respect Him too much. If He hasn't given you the instruction to help another financially then don't worry about it. He doesn't command us all to do the same things all the time I guess.
I was having a wonderful conversation with studyintoshow and I see the Spirit shining in her so brightly that I want to have a back and forth with her.
All I was asking was to have one teensy little thread where we could do so without getting into endless lists of "back it up with scripture."
That wasn't why I joined the forum. I wanted.............sigh...........to speak with others about their conversations with God on things.
Peace to you. I think we are built differently and are looking for a different type of discourse.

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 03:46 AM
paintdiva



Listen, brother, I am not going to follow what you are telling me you have read to ignore and disregard a direct leading from God. It's just never going to happen because I fear and respect Him too much.


A direct leading from God would not have Paul stating he is not speaking as a command; and each should give of their own free will.



If He hasn't given you the instruction to help another financially then don't worry about it. He doesn't command us all to do the same things all the time I guess.


This is about tithing.



All I was asking was to have one teensy little thread where we could do so without getting into endless lists of "back it up with scripture."


This being "Bible Chat"; one would expect to have some referance about scripture.

I think there is other areas on this Forum,other than bible chat, where the demand for a biblical backing is less.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 11:06 AM
Studyin'2Show

Some of the same players of those past discussion are watching or partaking in this one.

On denominations;

What denomination was Paul or Peter?

We should not focus on this denomination or that one; denomonations place a layer of sinful men between the pastor and God.It seems obvious that you don't really want to discuss the issue with ME. There seems to be an agenda at work here. BTW, I've already said that I attend a house fellowship so why would you feel the need to direct a comment on denominations toward me? You are preaching to the choir here! ;) Even when my hubby and I were youth directors at a denominational church, I always told the kids that I was NOT that denomination, but had simply been placed there by God to be in fellowship. But let me make a little suggestion. If it is your intention is to get the body of Christ to unify, maybe you could start using 'unifying' words. We, as believers, have been called to be a light to those in darkness. Let us show by example the love of Messiah that dwells within us.

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 24th 2007, 03:23 PM
I believe you have just clobbered us over the head with doctrine. Please just let us have our discussion and don't clobber us over the head. There are plenty of threads where people want endless debate and pharisaical discourse on wording and nit-picking. I finally found a conversation with a wonderful spirit led woman who I really wanted to talk more with.
I was not bragging about my tithing - I was bragging about my glorious and loving God who has rewarded me so richly for my obedience. I was sharing some of the things He has taught me and when He gives me wisdom I thank Him for it and love to share. I would never dream of clobbering someone with His wisdom.
I don't think she deserved to be clobbered either. Please, if you have some wisdom to share that He has given you personally, just tell us, we want to hear what you have to say, but we don't want to get dragged into maniacal scriptural comparisons and contrasts and miss Him speaking to us and through each other.
Please don't get offended at me. You are quite intelligent and knowledgeable but I desire and was enjoying speaking of our experiences with Abba - true personal experience. I would also love to hear about your experiences with Him but I don't want to be clobbered, I want a deeper conversation one on one with another human about Him and what He has taught us about tithing.

This is the issue that I currently am having. When you say that God is blessing you for being obedient, what are you actually stating? Are you stating that God commands a tithe from us and by not doing so that person would be dis-obedient, or are you saying that God has spoken to you, directly (state how/where) that you are to be obedient in giving a tithe?

FWIW, I do give tithes. I just started questioning the "theology" of it recently.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 04:23 PM
This is the issue that I currently am having. When you say that God is blessing you for being obedient, what are you actually stating? Are you stating that God commands a tithe from us and by not doing so that person would be dis-obedient, or are you saying that God has spoken to you, directly (state how/where) that you are to be obedient in giving a tithe?

FWIW, I do give tithes. I just started questioning the "theology" of it recently.I apologize in advance if you were only asking paintdiva but I just wanted to make a comment. I really don't get into 'theology'. I've had people tell me that I'm 'religious' but I'm not! I have a personal relationship with my Savior. In my reading of scripture, I have found the Hebrew scriptures very valuable. I don't find anything burdensome or bad about God's Law. In my understanding what was burdensome was the many, many man made laws that had attached themselves to God's Law in the minds of many 'religious' people. I believe that God has written HIS Law in my heart. I am so pleased that He has allowed my hubby and me to not only be able to provide for our own family but to also be a blessing to others. It is about a partnership I have made with Him so I don't feel any obligation.

I do feel, however, that He has shown by His example how awesome it is to give. As for obedience, He said follow Me and gave even the very substance of Himself. So, in obedience to His command to follow Him, we give whenever we are led, and we have been led to give from the firstfruits of all our increase. If we had a farm it would be from our harvest. If we had a ranch, it would be from our livestock. We don't have those things, so we give from our paychecks as we continue to follow His example.

God Bless!

Steve M
Apr 24th 2007, 04:25 PM
I've had people tell me that I'm 'religious' but I'm not

I try to be religious.

FWIW.

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 04:38 PM
Studyin'2Show



It seems obvious that you don't really want to discuss the issue with ME.


Past experience on this board has shown it is best to avoid topics of the "person".
With a person you have to look at their motivations.
{That will lead to charges of personal attacks or judging anothers faith.};

Thus I try to keep focus off the person and on the general points of the doctrine.



But let me make a little suggestion. If it is your intention is to get the body of Christ to unify, maybe you could start using 'unifying' words. We, as believers, have been called to be a light to those in darkness. Let us show by example the love of Messiah that dwells within us.
The unification should be in the doctrine, not in our sweet little words.
When there is a difference in doctrine there can be no unification; doctrine cant unify with untruth and still remain pure.

Mat 10
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Truth divides.

What good it is to unifiy with out the core of the unification being truth?

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 04:47 PM
Ok, well I choose to post on this board for God's glorification, as well as our edification and fellowship. I have no agenda other than increasing the kingdom of heaven. You continue to argue your agenda. I'll continue to testify about God's faithfulness.

Revelation 12:11 - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

God Bless!

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 07:36 PM
Studyin'2Show



Ok, well I choose to post on this board for God's glorification, as well as our edification and fellowship. I have no agenda other than increasing the kingdom of heaven. You continue to argue your agenda. I'll continue to testify about God's faithfulness.


Ok

How is bondage to a tithe{Giving under a yoke of compulsion (Anti the doctrine of 2Cor 9:7)}; in place of worship thru free willed giving; glorifying God?

This is where I see a stumble on the your positions carry thru. :B

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 24th 2007, 07:52 PM
COL,

I think you completely missed Strudying 2 Show's point, She does not, and has never said to give under compulsion, quite to the contrary.

Studying 2 Show has chosen to give, and in turn has been blessed immensly by God.

I do not see where that contradicts scripture at all like you're trying to say it does.

Anyway, i'm not going to be involved in this thread any further myself.. to do so would be against scripture, and better judgment.

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 07:58 PM
Jesusinmyheart



I think you completely missed Strudying 2 Show's point, She does not, and has never said to give under compulsion, quite to the contrary.

Studying 2 Show has chosen to give, and in turn has been blessed immensly by God.

I do not see where that contradicts scripture at all like you're trying to say it does.

Anyway, i'm not going to be involved in this thread any further myself.. to do so would be against scripture, and better judgment.


A tithe in and of it self sets up compusion in Giving; it isnt free willed.

Slug1
Apr 24th 2007, 08:00 PM
So what should we call giving money to God?

Steve M
Apr 24th 2007, 08:01 PM
So what should we call giving money to God?
How about what Paul called it? I'm all in favor of calling Bible things by Bible names.

Laying by in store. Setting aside. Giving. A collection for the saints.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 24th 2007, 08:10 PM
Giving God what is God's :)

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 09:17 PM
Studyin'2Show

Ok

How is bondage to a tithe{Giving under a yoke of compulsion (Anti the doctrine of 2Cor 9:7)}; in place of worship thru free willed giving; glorifying God?

This is where I see a stumble on the your positions carry thru. :BGod is faithful! His word is true!

God Bless!;)

Magnetic
Apr 24th 2007, 09:31 PM
Giving God what is God's :)

If it is ALL God's, how is giving 10% of it any MORE "giving God what is God's"? :confused

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 09:34 PM
If it is ALL God's, how is giving 10% of it any MORE "giving God what is God's"? :confusedOk, so give it ALL! :lol: But seriously, this is not something to stress yourself over. Pray about it! Wait for His guidance and do what HE leads you to do, not what someone tells you to do. It about you and Him and no one else!

God Bless

Slug1
Apr 24th 2007, 09:36 PM
It's what makes ya happy whether it's 1% or 100% and anything in between.

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 09:41 PM
slug1



It's what makes ya happy whether it's 1% or 100% and anything in between.
Then it isnt about worship and filling a need.

It is about making our self happy?

Probally just a phrase;

Which is my point.

The focus is on us, and how we feel.
It is about us and what we can give;

Why look at me I give 10%; then another I give 20%; then another Look at me I can do 30%.

John 12:43 - For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

God looks at the heart not the "percents".

He knows the reason behind the giving; and if its done thru human motivation; it is dead works to him, even if its 70% or 100%.

Slug1
Apr 24th 2007, 09:44 PM
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

jiggyfly
Apr 24th 2007, 10:24 PM
God blesses who He chooses.
Matthew 5:45
"For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too."

Galatians 5:1-6
1 So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2 Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3 I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
5 But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive everything promised to us who are right with God through faith. 6 For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, it makes no difference to God whether we are circumcised or not circumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.

Anyone that thinks that God blesses them because they adhere to any old covenant laws(including the tithe) are sadly mistaking what it is to be in Christ and a partner in the new covenant. Folks to think that you can cause Father to bless you by doing this or that is a manipulation, period.

Yes there are kingdom principles at work like "give and it shall be given unto you" but this has absolutely nothing to do with the old covenant practice of tithing. Giving your whole entire income does not obligate or motivate God to do anything. Money (especially that set apart by the practice of tithing) has occupied way too much thought from today's church. God does not need any of our money to carry out His plan. So why don't we move on to things that really matter, spiritual things.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 24th 2007, 10:28 PM
It is about making our self happy?

To clear up any misundestanding: It is not about making myself happy, but rather i give/tithe/offer up cause I AM happy, and have been proivided for by God, and I AM thankfull and gratefull for that.

This is what makes one a cheerful giver.

And after i tithe/give/offer up, I AM happy, cause i was able to, and did what i felt led to do.

Now does that make sense ? And i do not see anything unscriptural about this at all.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 24th 2007, 10:30 PM
Anyone that thinks that God blesses them because they adhere to any old covenant laws(including the tithe) are sadly mistaking what it is to be in Christ and a partner in the new covenant. Folks to think that you can cause Father to bless you by doing this or that is a manipulation, period.

I am curious... do you have any children ?

Studyin'2Show
Apr 24th 2007, 11:02 PM
We can go back and forth on this one. I have scriptures, you have scriptures but we seem to interpret them differently. I have not once told anyone else how they should interpret scripture. I follow as the Holy Spirit directs me.

Malachi 3:10
10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

It seems to clearly be a promise from God. If you don't see it that way, that's fine, but I do. I see no obligation in this promise. I see no compulsion. It seems almost like God saying, "Go ahead, test Me, and see if I don't bless your socks off!" Now, I've taken Him up on the challenge, completely by choice, and my socks have been completely blessed off! Coincidence? Well, if it is, it's fine with me. You do what you choose to do, and so will I. This is NOT a salvational issue. No one's going to 'get saved' by tithing, and by the same token, no one will lose their salvational for not tithing. I've never understood why people get so riled up over this. My goodness, will you look at how quick these pages have filled up.

BTW, Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell EVERYTHING and give it ALL away! Three of the four Gospels document it (Matthew 19:16, Mark 10:17, Luke 18:18). I think we all should be ready to give whatever the Lord directs us to give. If you remember, the rich young ruler went away sad because he didn't want to give up the things he had. It's just fine to have things, as long as the things don't have you.

God Bless!

Slug1
Apr 24th 2007, 11:45 PM
To clear up any misundestanding: It is not about making myself happy, but rather i give/tithe/offer up cause I AM happy, and have been proivided for by God, and I AM thankfull and gratefull for that.

This is what makes one a cheerful giver.

And after i tithe/give/offer up, I AM happy, cause i was able to, and did what i felt led to do.

Now does that make sense ? And i do not see anything unscriptural about this at all.I like how you worded that... AMEN!

jiggyfly
Apr 25th 2007, 12:52 AM
I am curious... do you have any children ?

Yes I do, grown up and gone now.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 01:31 AM
Yes I do, grown up and gone now.

Did you have any rules in your home while your children were growing up ?

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 05:47 AM
Magnetic-
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did, in a previous post state that I talked with God about what I should do since I don't attend church, about tithing. I stated that the Spirit led me to help a certain family. I never meant to give the impression that He told me everyone should do this - it was just a personal conversation with Him, which He answered to me personally.:saint:

jiggyfly
Apr 25th 2007, 08:56 AM
Did you have any rules in your home while your children were growing up ?

Ofcourse we did and I think I know where you are going with this so I will save you some time.

There are rules, commands and /or conditions in the new covenant. Some are even simular to some of the commands in the old covenant, but we are not obligated in any way to the old covenant or any part of it. This is all documented in the testament of the new covenant.

I had rules to obey as I was growing up too, but when I started my own family I also made a new set of rules, my own rules. What was required of me was not the same as what was required by me any longer.

Scripture clearly speaks against anyone trying to get others to follow anything outside the new covenant by any means (including teaching and even light encouragement). Tithing is an old covenant law and there is a new covenant regulation on giving. They are completely different and yes Malachi chapter 3 is completely irrelevant to the new covenant requirement. God saw fault in the old covenant so He made a new one with us. He did NOT make a new ammendment to the old covenant. Try reading Hebrews, Galatians, Colosians, and Philippians with this in mind. God bless everyone.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2007, 11:20 AM
Ofcourse we did and I think I know where you are going with this so I will save you some time.

There are rules, commands and /or conditions in the new covenant. Some are even simular to some of the commands in the old covenant, but we are not obligated in any way to the old covenant or any part of it. This is all documented in the testament of the new covenant.

I had rules to obey as I was growing up too, but when I started my own family I also made a new set of rules, my own rules. What was required of me was not the same as what was required by me any longer.

Scripture clearly speaks against anyone trying to get others to follow anything outside the new covenant by any means (including teaching and even light encouragement). Tithing is an old covenant law and there is a new covenant regulation on giving. They are completely different and yes Malachi chapter 3 is completely irrelevant to the new covenant requirement. God saw fault in the old covenant so He made a new one with us. He did NOT make a new ammendment to the old covenant. Try reading Hebrews, Galatians, Colosians, and Philippians with this in mind. God bless everyone.I think you have missed the point that she was getting to. I don't think it was that the rules you had for your children have not changed. Forgive me, JiMH, if I am speaking incorrectly for you. I believe the point was going to be that you gave your children rules so they would learn to do the right things ON THEIR OWN, when they came of age. If you told them they had to clean up their room and make their bed, that wouldn't mean that now that they're grown you go check their room and rebuke them if it's not to your standard. But rather, I'm sure you would hope that during the time when they were under your rule, they learned that they can be much more productive and effective if their space is properly organized and free from excess clutter so that now they do this without compulsion. I do not tithe from compulsion, but because God has shown me through His awesome example that the way of the kingdom is to give freely with no expectations of getting anything in return.

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 06:04 PM
Jiggyfly,

What i was trying to get at is, if you told your kids to make their beds and keep a clean room, they do hopefully not depart from it, and still keep a clean room as adults. The rules you had for your chiuldren was meant for their own good and protection, in their youth and when grown.

IOW, they still practise (some of) the old rules they had to live by when under your authority. Not for your benefit, but for their own.

And in the same way i adhere to some of the still in effect OT laws to my own benefit, not for the benefit of God, but rather to His glory.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I am sure that some rules you had when growing up were the same as those you had for your own, though you may have discarded some old rules you didn't agree with.

Thing is, God's Law is perfect, there's no discarding and changing old laws to substitute for new:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Human, man made law is fallible, and subject to changes, for "betterment"

If i adhere to the OT law, it's for my own benefit, and the wisdom of God i can experience through it. No, the Law never made one perfect, but it can give one a great understanding of who God is, and who i am. And through the light i can see where my darkness lies and hopefully i can crucify my flesh to follow Him, who spoke this Law long ago.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 06:09 PM
Studyin 2 Show did convey in essence what i was trying to make a point of.


BTW Studyin this thing of giving without expecting in return really hits home with me, cause i am realizing i do have an issue with that. When i was young i did a lot of that and gave without expecting to get and it was just pure joy to give. I was however abused a lot, and i guess my ways there have changed over the years. Therefore i'm trying to return to what i once used to be able to do. It's something within me that needs to let go, before i can accomplish that again.

SIGH. And that's the reason i don't tithe very often yet.. though i know i really don't owe anything, it all belongs to Him.

Centurionoflight
Apr 25th 2007, 06:12 PM
Jesusinmyheart


If i adhere to the OT law, it's for my own benefit, and the wisdom of God i can experience through it. No, thew Law never made one perfect, but it can give one a great understanding of who God is, and who i am.

Gal 3


2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


God is a spirit; the works of the law {tithing} are works of the flesh. That arent a method of spiritual growth. The law is perfect for what it does; that is to condem.

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 06:23 PM
Jesusinmyheart-
Maybe He doesn't require that you place any money anywhere right now. Centurionoflight is trying to ppoint out that we aren't bound by the old laws and I truly believe this is so.
We aren't to worry about anything but only to trust and follow Him.
It is, however, a different matter from following the law, when He directs us to give somewhere or help someone and I think if He placed something like that on your heart, you would know it because you appear to me to be aware of His voice.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 07:41 PM
paintdiva,

i appreciate your input. But you know something, while God may not require it, it is still an act of love if i do it, cause i submit to Him all that He has given me and i trust Him to provide.

I once read a saying someone had written into a really old bible: "Love is not what you feel, but what you do"

In other words, even if i don't feel like being kind to someone, i still should be kind. That's not being a hypocrite, but it's being compassionate and caring and foremost it's a loving thing to do.

As far as the tithing is concerned, i'm not clear cut on whether it is law still or not, but i do know some things in the OT in my opinion are still effective.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 07:52 PM
COL,

Gal 3


2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Col, you have to take scripture in context and read the whole book.

To counter you then:


Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Please quit doubting my faith, i am not the fool you try to prove me to be by posting these scriptures.

Centurionoflight
Apr 25th 2007, 08:34 PM
You was the one who stated;



If i adhere to the OT law, it's for my own benefit,


And in context;

The Law can not save.
The Law isnt a source of Spiritual growth.

Romans 3


20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

So by works of the flesh in the laws cant save you; how can it perfect you?

The doer of the law is those who turn to God; rather than their work of righteousness.

Conclusion is;

Tithing is a work of the law for it is containted in the law; it can justify nothing; nor is it a method of spiritual growth.

This is liek what Paul stated in

Gal 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Studyin'2Show
Apr 25th 2007, 08:44 PM
Jesusinmyheart

Gal 3

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
God is a spirit; the works of the law {tithing} are works of the flesh. That arent a method of spiritual growth. The law is perfect for what it does; that is to condem.Do you know what the term 'works of the law' meant in first century lingo? Any idea? Not what you're representing here. This referred to the act of a Gentile going through ritual conversion to become a Jew. The term 'the circumcision' or 'of the circumcision' is a similar term but meaning anyone that had either been born in or ritually converted to the faith of Abraham.

Understanding the terms really makes passages like this one so much easier to understand. By your logic above, obeying the law to not kill, or lie, or commit adultery would also be considered a 'work of the law'. That would make no sense to say that somehow you would be foolish by choosing not to lie, or kill, or commit adultery. What Paul was referring to was those that were 'of the circumcision' who were telling believers who had already received the Holy Spirit that they now needed to go through the ritual conversion process to really be grafted in. Do you see how silly that is? Which is why Paul was asking if they received the (Holy) Spirit by being ritually converted or by hearing the words of faith. As you can see, this really doesn't apply to tithing at all.

God Bless!

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 08:57 PM
Jesusinmyheart-
I understand what you were saying. I quite honestly have to say that I don't know whether I think the laws in the OT are 'dead' because its what I have read elsewhere or because it's what He led me to.
I have read some books that argue that the ten commandments are dead too! I can't ever believe that, but when I start to worry about anything I ever read in the OT, I just kind of lean on when Jesus said that if we love God with all our heart and we love our brother as ourself, putting more importance even, on other people than ourselves, then we are sort of covered.
I also lean heavily on the vss. that talk about how He reads our hearts and minds, which I take to mean that your true inner intent matters more than anything else! Which makes too much sense if, as He has said, it's really all about love.
I think your heart is in the right place if you think there are some laws in the OT that you personally want keep to honor Him. I know there are those who would (and probably will) argue that if you do this you are trying to earn your salvation, but I see that your heart is in the right place and that this is not your belief or intent.

KEEP GOING
Apr 25th 2007, 09:03 PM
Jesusinmyheart-

I think your heart is in the right place if you think there are some laws in the OT that you personally want keep to honor Him.

I Agree 100 %
Well put !

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 09:30 PM
Studyin' 2 Show,
:hug:

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that, as i myself had before and tried to show, but it's like running into a brick wall. Hence my reply.

paintdiva,

Thank you so much for discerning my posts in the right way. I see you read carefully and that is a very good trait to have.

I believe you are following the right direction and i am not going to tell you what you should do. I believe God teaches each one of us individually, and through His Word. Even though you and i read the same verse, i think we can both get an idividual teaching out of it, that still would be biblically correct.
:hug: s to you.

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 09:43 PM
Amen! But when you read my reply in that other thread you might be tearing your hair out at my stubborness!Heehee

Centurionoflight
Apr 25th 2007, 09:59 PM
Studyin'2Show



Understanding the terms really makes passages like this one so much easier to understand. By your logic above, obeying the law to not kill, or lie, or commit adultery would also be considered a 'work of the law'. That would make no sense to say that somehow you would be foolish by choosing not to lie, or kill, or commit adultery.

We are not under the law; we dont kill murder or steal because that would quench the spirit.
This would be the sin nature mastering us.

As Paul stated.

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.


What Paul was referring to was those that were 'of the circumcision' who were telling believers who had already received the Holy Spirit that they now needed to go through the ritual conversion process to really be grafted in. Do you see how silly that is? Which is why Paul was asking if they received the (Holy) Spirit by being ritually converted or by hearing the words of faith. As you can see, this really doesn't apply to tithing at all.

Tithing was ordered by the Law; no way around that.

Lev 27

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

33He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
For one to state they need or want to tithe; they are enslaving them self to the law;

Tithing is not a means to spiritual growth or blessing.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So if we are not;

1) Justified by tithing.
2) Made Perfect {Mature in Spirit} by Tithing.

There is no reason for Christians to tithe; it serves no spiritual purpose; and infringes on free will giving which is a proper function of Chruch giving.

Conclusion:

Tithing today is nothing more than a distraction.

jiggyfly
Apr 25th 2007, 09:59 PM
Jiggyfly,

What i was trying to get at is, if you told your kids to make their beds and keep a clean room, they do hopefully not depart from it, and still keep a clean room as adults. The rules you had for your chiuldren was meant for their own good and protection, in their youth and when grown.

IOW, they still practise (some of) the old rules they had to live by when under your authority. Not for your benefit, but for their own.

And in the same way i adhere to some of the still in effect OT laws to my own benefit, not for the benefit of God, but rather to His glory.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I am sure that some rules you had when growing up were the same as those you had for your own, though you may have discarded some old rules you didn't agree with.

Thing is, God's Law is perfect, there's no discarding and changing old laws to substitute for new:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Human, man made law is fallible, and subject to changes, for "betterment"

If i adhere to the OT law, it's for my own benefit, and the wisdom of God i can experience through it. No, the Law never made one perfect, but it can give one a great understanding of who God is, and who i am. And through the light i can see where my darkness lies and hopefully i can crucify my flesh to follow Him, who spoke this Law long ago.

Hebrews 8:7-13
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8 But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9 This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10 But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12 And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 10:11 PM
mathew 5:17-20 Does this kind of state that we shouldn't just dismiss the OT and its laws out of hand? That possibly there is still something to be at least learned from them?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 10:42 PM
Jiggyfly:
May i point out why the first covenant was not faultless, i will highlight why it wasn't so:

Hebrews 8:7-13
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8 But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9 This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.

Had they been faithful, then God would not have had to send His Son Yeshua to attone for mankinds sins. It was not the Law that caused the fault, but mankinds sinful nature.

10 But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12 And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

Note it says: It is ready to be put aside, but not is is now being put aside.
So there's still something to come, before that "old covenant" is being put away.
That time is coming when Yeshua takes His bride, and our bodies are made new. Then all will have been accomplished.

As you noticed, we are still not perfect yet.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 25th 2007, 11:34 PM
mathew 5:17-20 Does this kind of state that we shouldn't just dismiss the OT and its laws out of hand? That possibly there is still something to be at least learned from them?

How does one become more righteous than a pharisee ? The Pharisees had some very strict regulations, and added "fence laws" to the actual Torah (The first 5 books of the OT) Laws, and expected people to follow these as stringent as the Torah laws themselves. They had no mercy, calling those sinners that even violated their fence laws, and condemend those for lack of mercy that on the Sabbath went to find a lost sheep, or came to the aid of a needy person, or whatnot, and condemned those as well for they had broken the Laws of the Torah.

Yeshua explained, that it was lawfull to do good on the Sabbath, and Yeshua acknowledged those that tried sincerely to repent (repent means to turn from sin) Turning from sin requires that one does not do what the flesh has us do naturally. ie, an example of gluttony which is a sin: eating your favorite candy, and you gobble it up til you're about to get sick, a better example yet would be drunkenness.

This is why people in the OT sacrificed animals as this was a shadow of Yeshua. But God Himself said he did not delight in the blood of goats and bulls, cause people were using it as a way of saying: "i sinned, i sacrificed, and i'm good."

It was true repentance and honest turning from sin that God wants to forgive.

And the people that sacrificed those animals had to have faith too, that it would cover their sins. So in essence, they too had to trust in God, to forgive them to have that mercy.

And that's where the Pharisees fell short, they had no mercy and were harsh and did not see the spirit of the Law being followed. Even when one really tried.

jiggyfly
Apr 26th 2007, 02:01 AM
Jiggyfly:
May i point out why the first covenant was not faultless, i will highlight why it wasn't so:

Hebrews 8:7-13
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8 But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9 This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.

Had they been faithful, then God would not have had to send His Son Yeshua to attone for mankinds sins. It was not the Law that caused the fault, but mankinds sinful nature.

10 But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12 And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

Note it says: It is ready to be put aside, but not is is now being put aside.
So there's still something to come, before that "old covenant" is being put away.
That time is coming when Yeshua takes His bride, and our bodies are made new. Then all will have been accomplished.

As you noticed, we are still not perfect yet.

I do not agree with you nor do I believe that scripture supports your statement. We are heading in two different directions. I won't argue or debate but I find your understanding of the old and new covenants to be in grave error. I find that as I grow spiritually I die to all of the religious activity that these topics tend to stir. I have no need for the old covenant, God said it is outdated and thats good enough for me. Jesus is all I need, and I found Him by the drawing of HolySpirit.

It pleases Father to reveal Christ in me. So the fullfilment of all things, Christ, lives in me. So now there is absolutely nothing more the old covenant including the law can do for me. Because of this I will continue to be a wrench in the gearbox of old covenant keepers, tithers, sabboth keepers and feast observers. Although it saddens me that many may be offended at this, I will not offer any apologies. May God grant us all the knowledge and grace to discern what it is to abide in Christ.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 02:18 AM
Jiggyfly,

I do not believe i'm in error. However, i understand that you disagree, and i'm not going to argue. I was just trying to show you why i see it differently, with the support of scripture.

You can continue to be: "a wrench in the gearbox of old covenant keepers, tithers, sabboth keepers and feast observers." But i can tell you, that you are not going to deter those who have heard His voice on that.

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 02:50 AM
I don't know how this is possible but I kind of agree with both of you.
Yes, absolutely, Jesus is all we need.
But also, there is some good to studying the OT laws. Jesus said He didn't come to do away with them, dismiss them, but to fulfill them and I think we can form a better............profile of God by studying them.
There was also a saying of Jesus about how not one letter of the law would pass away but the earth would. Did I get that right?
Something that confuses me though is the vs. that talks about how God said that He gave us some laws that were not good. I wondered why He would do that? :hmm:

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 03:48 AM
paintdiva,
i know what you are talking about, and that is a little hard to understand: Read from verse 1 through 20 for even more clarification:

Eze 20:23 Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them through the countries,
Eze 20:24 because they had not obeyed my rules, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my Sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers' idols.
Eze 20:25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life,
Eze 20:26 and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

This talks about child sacrifice, offering to Molech which was a horrid abomination to God.
Also notice that God says "them" "they" "their" not "You" so it's not for "us" :hug:

Please, never read a single verse without the surrounding context. And always search other scriptures for clarification.

God here is lamenting a people, His people the nation of Israel, who He has labored hard for to show His glory through them and tried to show mercy and repeatedly saved them from His wrath, but they refused to listen. so God gave them over to statues of their own, to follow, those they chose, rather than His Word/rules and Laws..

If you look in other parts of the bible you would see this verse to be in direct conflict with such as:

Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the decrees of the Lord are sure, making wise the simple;

Psa 119:92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my misery.

Psa 119:174 I long for your salvation, O Lord, and your law is my delight.

There are no contradictions in the Word, it is perfect and true, so if something seems to contradict, you'll have to dig until your understanding lines up with everything else in scripture.

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 05:20 AM
Think I see what you're saying.
Time for me to bow out and head for bed. Guess what vss. I'll be reading to lull me to sleep??? lol

Studyin'2Show
Apr 26th 2007, 10:47 AM
Studyin'2Show
We are not under the law; we dont kill murder or steal because that would quench the spirit.
This would be the sin nature mastering us.It doesn't seem that you have read my post since your reply doesn't really speak to the points I was sharing. For several pages of this thread I have been attempting to share that I am NOT UNDER any compulsion to tithe. As paintdiva said earlier, there is much to be learned. We are told by Paul that we need to renew our mind and not conform to the world. It is the nature of God to GIVE, so I give following His example.

Why is it that no one has commented on Jesus' advice to the rich young ruler to sell EVERYTHING and give it away? This is in the Apostolic scriptures so there should be no talk of OT law. If nothing else, I think it's like fasting; it teaches your body that it's not in charge of your actions, your spirit is. It's showing your flesh (your greed) that it is not in charge. It has taught me that I can not trust in or depend on my paycheck, but that I can trust in and depend on my heavenly Father. I have not once been lacking since I have made this commitment to God and that's a very new thing for me since I was always running out of money before. I think this was the reason Jesus said this to the man, because his flesh was dictating his actions although the young man thought he was righteous. Unfortunately, the young ruler had been so conformed to the world that he could not be transformed at this point. Hopefully, he was able to eventually let go of his grasp of his things so he could grab hold of Messiah.

Something that confuses me though is the vs. that talks about how God said that He gave us some laws that were not good. I wondered why He would do that? :hmm:Where does scripture say that God gave us some laws that were NOT good? There is much confusion that comes from the Pauline epistles because so many do not understand that the majority of the 'laws' the Jews were attempting to follow then and even now are not found in God's word. The religious leaders of the people had created 1000s of man-made 'laws' like not being allowed to eat meat and dairy at the same time, that were just not in the Law of God. Paul, a Pharisee, had come to recognize that that 'law' that was not from God was a great burden and was keeping the people from a relationship with God. I call them the big L Law or the little L law. When you read scripture it is fairly simply to see the difference between the two even though it is translated with no difference. In English there is no difference between 'dogma' (law) and Torah (Law). They both sound like the same thing but they are very different. Dogma is a set of man-made laws, that may or may not be derived from a God-given Law. Torah, IS the Law God gave to His people. I hope this clarifies some things for you.

God Bless!

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 02:51 PM
The vs. I wanted clarification on was pointed out to me by jesusinmyheart, but I still don't have a grasp of it, so I would love your understanding on it too - Ez:20:25. Thanks for any help.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 03:09 PM
Drats Studyin' i wanted to give you reps for that post #167 but it wouldn't let me .... :(

This bears repeating:


Why is it that no one has commented on Jesus' advice to the rich young ruler to sell EVERYTHING and give it away? This is in the Apostolic scriptures so there should be no talk of OT law. If nothing else, I think it's like fasting; it teaches your body that it's not in charge of your actions, your spirit is. It's showing your flesh (your greed) that it is not in charge. It has taught me that I can not trust in or depend on my paycheck, but that I can trust in and depend on my heavenly Father. I have not once been lacking since I have made this commitment to God and that's a very new thing for me since I was always running out of money before. I think this was the reason Jesus said this to the man, because his flesh was dictating his actions although the young man thought he was righteous. Unfortunately, the young ruler had been so conformed to the world that he could not be transformed at this point. Hopefully, he was able to eventually let go of his grasp of his things so he could grab hold of Messiah.

Yes, i see that too... and i am very glad you pointed that out. :hug:

Magnetic
Apr 26th 2007, 03:24 PM
I don't believe that Jesus's advice to that one person should be taken as if it were to every Christian person. It was probably a matter of his heart and more of an object lesson. I bet that if the "rich young ruler" had said, "Then that is what I shall do, Lord", I bet Jesus would have said something along the lines of, "You past the test. It isn't what you give, but your willingness to do what I have asked of you."

My :2cents:

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 03:34 PM
Magnetic,


:2cents:


I see you decideed to tithe, even though it's a small amount :rofl:

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 03:42 PM
Too funny!!! Heeheee:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Magnetic
Apr 26th 2007, 04:10 PM
Don't make fun of me. When I come to the place in my life that I start making MORE than .20 cents a week, then I'll GIVE more than the .02 cents!! :mad:

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 04:19 PM
They give you twenty cents!!!
Where do you work and are they hiring???

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 04:21 PM
Oh Brother.... I truly hope you didn't take that serious ???? I'm really sorry if i offended you in any way. :hug:

Studyin'2Show
Apr 26th 2007, 04:32 PM
I don't believe that Jesus's advice to that one person should be taken as if it were to every Christian person. It was probably a matter of his heart and more of an object lesson. I bet that if the "rich young ruler" had said, "Then that is what I shall do, Lord", I bet Jesus would have said something along the lines of, "You past the test. It isn't what you give, but your willingness to do what I have asked of you."

My :2cents:You guys are too much! :D My point, Mag, was not that we should all go sell everything and give it to the poor. The point was that many are representing it as if Jesus never said anything would ever be required of us. I was just showing that He had looked this man directly in the face and told him to give EVERYTHING! We all have to be willing to give anything and everything our Lord ask of us; whether it's 2 cents or two million dollars! ;)

God Bless!

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 04:51 PM
I kind of hope He always gives me just enough because money scares the jeepers out of me!
Further back on this thread it just got misunderstood that a lot of us were talking about personal leadings and weren't talking about the tithe of the OT.
Studyin'toshow - did you read my post a few back on that vs we were talking about? I would like your thoughts on it.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 26th 2007, 04:59 PM
The vs. I wanted clarification on was pointed out to me by jesusinmyheart, but I still don't have a grasp of it, so I would love your understanding on it too - Ez:20:25. Thanks for any help.You have to read what's before it to get the context.

Ezekiel 20:22-26
22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, 24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.
25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD.”’

They were already being unfaithful so He gave them up to follow after other dogma that was not good. These weren't His statutes, it was the statutes of the nations around them and their gods. You see, His statutes were good but they wouldn't follow them so He gave them over to follow after other gods.

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 26th 2007, 05:37 PM
I think that Centurian and myself were focusing only on "the tithe" and the churches that state that you are sinning if you don't give your tithes. I'm all for a person, who feels lead to, who gives whatever they feel they should give.

Oh, and paintdiva, my company is hiring, but you'd have to start out at .10 cents a week. I've been here for 15 years, so you shouldn't expect to get up to my level of wealth right from the get go! ;)

Studyin'2Show
Apr 26th 2007, 06:11 PM
I think that Century and myself were focusing only on "the tithe" and the churches that state that you are sinning if you don't give your tithes. I'm all for a person, who feels lead to, who gives whatever they feel they should give.

Oh, and paintdiva, my company is hiring, but you'd have to start out at .10 cents a week. I've been here for 15 years, so you shouldn't expect to get up to my level of wealth right from the get go! ;)Actually, Centurianoflight said that even to give a tithe by choice was somehow attempting to be validated by the law and therefore against the law of the Spirit. :hmm:

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 06:26 PM
studyin2show-Oh,Oh, thank you so much! That makes perfect sense to me now and the Spirit blessed me with goosebumps that what you said was truth.:pp

Magnetic-where do I send my resume?:lol:

Magnetic
Apr 26th 2007, 07:46 PM
studyin2show-Oh,Oh, thank you so much! That makes perfect sense to me now and the Spirit blessed me with goosebumps that what you said was truth.:pp

Magnetic-where do I send my resume?:lol:

It's not a matter of "where", but "when". 3rd century AD. You can car pool with me in my DeLorean. ;)

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 07:56 PM
3rd century A.D!!!!!
Never mind - I would miss potato chips too much

Magnetic
Apr 26th 2007, 08:06 PM
You misunderstand. You come back the same day. Besides, you get to meet really interesting people and confound them with your knowledge. :)

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 26th 2007, 08:19 PM
Not sure you missed it, but i posted a response to your question last night in this post:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1240988&postcount=165

awestruckchild
Apr 26th 2007, 08:21 PM
Oh they'd be confounded all right!

Faithwalker
Apr 27th 2007, 12:23 PM
I find that as I grow spiritually I die to all of the religious activity that these topics tend to stir. I have no need for the old covenant, God said it is outdated and thats good enough for me. Jesus is all I need, and I found Him by the drawing of HolySpirit.

It pleases Father to reveal Christ in me. So the fullfilment of all things, Christ, lives in me. So now there is absolutely nothing more the old covenant including the law can do for me. Because of this I will continue to be a wrench in the gearbox of old covenant keepers, tithers, sabboth keepers and feast observers. Although it saddens me that many may be offended at this, I will not offer any apologies. May God grant us all the knowledge and grace to discern what it is to abide in Christ.

Keep preaching, tho the new and living way is still rejected for the deadness of the letter.

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

The new and living way is not 10% of anything, but 100% of everything, that is to say Christ must be ALL within us, so that He would be the life that flows out of us, to those around us, and this living water is no more enhanced by mens religious activities then tossing a pebble in the ocean! As AW Tozer so aptly put it, "God is not interested in anything that rots, rusts, or burns!"

(In keeping with the OP, i`m sure the POOR, being the only ones the first apostles collected for, would appreciate a percentage of anything you have to give, of shelter, or food, or clothing or money... and they are not God, but they are just about everywhere, if we take our self-centered church-work-home-religious devil-made blinders off) [Pure religion - James 1:27]

If a man or woman truly wants to serve God, let them-us-me, quit wasting precious time on religious sacrifices, and performances, and rituals, and the pledging to God of our rusty trinkets, (which He doesnt need, and grew entirely sick and tired of a few thousand years ago, if Christs Words tell us anything) and let us give ourselves wholly tho Him by seeking the heart of God on behalf of those still lost in darkness. I fear this generation will rise up in judgement against us, and rightly condemn us, for all the time we waste preening before God, instead of focusing on pulling somebody, anybody, out of the ditch, that we might save some! This is the burden of God, and if anybody doesnt like these words, they seriously need to do some soul searching as to why?


Eph 3:17 And that Christ would make his home in your hearts through faith. Then, having been rooted and grounded in love, you will be able to understand, along with all the saints, what is wide, long, high, and deep- that [OCEAN] is, you will know the love of Christ, which goes far beyond knowledge, and will be filled with all the fullness of God.

Throw away the pebbles, its prayer that makes the waves of glory roll in Gods ocean.

awestruckchild
Apr 27th 2007, 12:35 PM
Faithwalker-
Beautifully and wonderfully put!

Thanks for that!

Studyin'2Show
Apr 27th 2007, 03:24 PM
Why is it assumed that those who have chosen to make a financial commitment to God, are not pulling those in ditches out, to save some? That would be akin to the assumption that every believer who has not chosen to do this, is pulling everyone they see out of ditches, to save some. I have not once, nor would I ever even imply that there is any problem with not choosing the path I have chosen. God knows the heart, and my heart is His. I believe this forum is for us, as fellow believers, to share ideas. There have those who have shared those scriptures that have led them not to tithe. There have been those who have shared those scriptures that have led them to tithe. As I have said several times, each of us needs to follow the Lord and His leading on this issue. I have done so with this as I have with everything else in my life. I would encouraging anyone reading this to do the same. We should never be following anyone else, but rather be following as the Holy Spirit leads.

God Bless!

awestruckchild
Apr 29th 2007, 01:49 AM
This is very tricky and difficult because I can see two sides here and I can see the concern and worry on both sides.
It is so easy for us to miss the point and not understand that we can't do anything to earn being saved. I don't think a single person led by the Spirit can't remember the terrible struggle they went through to accept that, finally and completely.
So I see fear in others' posts that we are trying to 'do a good work' and may become entangled again in the law He died to free us from.

On the other hand, I think some of them, in the fear and love they feel for others, don't see the part where we say we are following a direct order or leading by the Spirit when we do certain things with our money or help a certain person with our money.
They are so concerned that they don't see that we say we aren't 'tithing' as the OT told us to do - we are placing money where we have been directly told to place it. We totally get the point that it isn't ours and we are sensitive to the Spirits leading.

I think maybe sometimes, in some of the posts, Spirit led people just didn't see the sum total of what we were saying.
Then I think some of the posts came from people who aren't yet Spirit -led or Spirit sensitive, or whatever you want to call it. They are so intent on following the instructions of the Book that they miss the point that a direct order from God trumps all else. If I read an authors book I can arrive at some wrong conclusions, but if I have a direct conversation with that author, chances are I will have a better understanding.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 29th 2007, 08:44 PM
I think the key is that we, as believers, do not need to compare ourselves to each other. If I testify to you that I do such and such, it doesn't mean that I am saying that you should do the same. We need only be justified by our Savior and no other. Can you imagine what those around Ezekiel must have thought? God told you to do WHAT? I can not tell you what God told you; only you know that. And in the same way you can not tell me what God has told me. Why would it be important anyway? We do not have to agree. In fact, we obviously may not interpret scriptures in the same way. However, what is important for us to agree on is Jesus Christ; who lived a sinless life, was crucified for the sin of the world, and rose from the grave in victory over death.

Let me put it this way. I have been led to celebrate the feasts of the LORD. Some people think that is me attempting to justify myself but that could not be farther from the truth. I love the Law of God, as the writer of Psalm 119 does. It is not cumbersome or a burden for me. Is that saying that I believe I am somehow saved by the Law? Goodness no! In no way do I think that. I am saved by the blood of Christ alone! Once you hear me say that, you should relax your concern that I tithe or celebrate Passover or anything else as an attempt to justify myself. May it never be. This is an impossibility. What I don't understand is why so many seem to have trouble with my choice to tithe. I really don't understand that. :hmm:

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 30th 2007, 02:24 PM
Okay, . . . I'm just going to ask two blunt questions.

1. As God is concnerned, am I a thief, if I don't give the tithe of my income, or if I don't give anything at all to the church?

2. IF I don't give anything, or even the tithe, will I be under a curse, and start finding myself in financial troubles?

lucylight2
Apr 30th 2007, 02:56 PM
Okay, . . . I'm just going to ask two blunt questions.

1. As God is concnerned, am I a thief, if I don't give the tithe of my income, or if I don't give anything at all to the church?

2. IF I don't give anything, or even the tithe, will I be under a curse, and start finding myself in financial troubles?

1. Yep
2. Yep
Passage Malachi 3:8-11:


8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of host.

He's bound by His Word, so we tie his hands when we do not tithe to our home church. I even mail mine to my church if am sick & miss church.
This is the only place in the word where God says, "prove me" in vs. 10.

StrongVibe
Apr 30th 2007, 02:57 PM
Is it 10% of our weekly earning?

lucylight2
Apr 30th 2007, 03:07 PM
Is it 10% of our weekly earning?

10Bring ye all the tithes.....
10% of all gross pay. (or actually any increase) Or 10% of net, if you tithe off your tax return.

Magnetic
Apr 30th 2007, 03:44 PM
Well, I don't want to be a cursed thief, so I'd better continue to give it.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 30th 2007, 05:28 PM
Well, I don't want to be a cursed thief, so I'd better continue to give it.If that is why you're giving it, I don't think that is the spirit of the law. It's a heart thing! It should be about the desire in your heart because that is where the law is now written.

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 30th 2007, 05:36 PM
If that is why you're giving it, I don't think that is the spirit of the law. It's a heart thing! It should be about the desire in your heart because that is where the law is now written.

God Bless!

Of course, your heart needs to be in it. But this is about doing what I'm supposed to do, lest I be a cursed thief. I don't want to be cursed OR a thief, so I'll continue to give it. Regardless of whether or not I'm completely joyful of giving it, if it is a command (you are cursed and are a thief if you do not give the tithe), then that's what I will do to remain obedient.

Studyin'2Show
Apr 30th 2007, 05:49 PM
Of course, your heart needs to be in it. But this is about doing what I'm supposed to do, lest I be a cursed thief. I don't want to be cursed OR a thief, so I'll continue to give it. Regardless of whether or not I'm completely joyful of giving it, if it is a command (you are cursed and are a thief if you do not give the tithe), then that's what I will do to remain obedient.I'd rather focus on the promise.

Malachi 3:10 - Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

God Bless!

Magnetic
Apr 30th 2007, 06:18 PM
I'd rather focus on the promise.

Malachi 3:10 - Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,

“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.

God Bless!

Sure, the promise is good to focus on. But my whole point in this thread was the obedience factor, and not wanting to do anything to loose favor in God's eyes. I already feel a "lost favor" as it is. I wasn't living the way I was supposed to and now I am reaping the consequences of it by reaping what I sowed when I was questioning God. I don't want to do anything else that God will frown upon, hence remaining obedient to this tithe that comes out of my weekly pay.

As for the blessing, monetary blessing, for me, would be nice, but I would rather have "no more room for blessing" in a future relationship, whether it be my wife coming back into relationship with me (and having the marriage greatly blessed), or the RIGHT person coming along and major blessings coming into my life that way. . . . . Getting a monetary blessing. . . having more money is empty without someone to share a life with.

Centurionoflight
Apr 30th 2007, 08:39 PM
Is it possible to have a relaxed mental attitude in Christ and be rich?

Lets say one is very rich and decides not to give a thing, they didnt get any thing out of the pastors doctrine or what ever.

And Guess what.

God will still bless them; because it is not upon what they give or not but rather on God.

All because it has a Christian {TM} logo on it doesnt mean it needs to be givin to.

Seriously;

There seems to be all this stress of giving; and giving the "right amount."

And for what purpose?

Who exactally are we trying to impress?

Which seems to be the end result of the motivation of giving.

Magnetic
Apr 30th 2007, 09:34 PM
Is it possible to have a relaxed mental attitude in Christ and be rich?

Lets say one is very rich and decides not to give a thing, they didnt get any thing out of the pastors doctrine or what ever.

And Guess what.

God will still bless them; because it is not upon what they give or not but rather on God.

All because it has a Christian {TM} logo on it doesnt mean it needs to be givin to.

Seriously;

There seems to be all this stress of giving; and giving the "right amount."

And for what purpose?

Who exactally are we trying to impress?

Which seems to be the end result of the motivation of giving.

I hear what you're saying. And I'm not trying to impress anyone. My motive is to do whatever I am supposed to do to be obedient, so I'm not cursed anymore than I have been in my life.

ravi4u2
Apr 30th 2007, 09:38 PM
The inward has to produce the outward...


---
Life! Just Live It! (http://www.lifegathering.net/)

Studyin'2Show
Apr 30th 2007, 09:38 PM
Sure, the promise is good to focus on. But my whole point in this thread was the obedience factor, and not wanting to do anything to loose favor in God's eyes. I already feel a "lost favor" as it is. I wasn't living the way I was supposed to and now I am reaping the consequences of it by reaping what I sowed when I was questioning God. I don't want to do anything else that God will frown upon, hence remaining obedient to this tithe that comes out of my weekly pay.

As for the blessing, monetary blessing, for me, would be nice, but I would rather have "no more room for blessing" in a future relationship, whether it be my wife coming back into relationship with me (and having the marriage greatly blessed), or the RIGHT person coming along and major blessings coming into my life that way. . . . . Getting a monetary blessing. . . having more money is empty without someone to share a life with.Mag, you just keep loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. God will bring you what your heart desires because you are His.

God Bless!

jiggyfly
May 1st 2007, 01:42 AM
10Bring ye all the tithes.....
10% of all gross pay. (or actually any increase) Or 10% of net, if you tithe off your tax return.
Do you by chance have scripture to back this up?

Jesusinmyheart
May 1st 2007, 02:47 AM
Who exactally are we trying to impress?

You're mistaken if you think we obey to impress. And if it did indeed impress anyone it would only be God Himself.

Don't you think it's normal for children desiring to impress their father ?

lucylight2
May 1st 2007, 03:04 PM
Do you by chance have scripture to back this up?

:) That was my scripture to back it up Mal. 3:10 ....bring ALL the tithe.
Not some... All....
in OT it talks about the first of all your increase too.
I pay tithe on my net. Then when i get my tax return, I tithe on it. So I catch all my increase. :)

Steve M
May 1st 2007, 03:12 PM
10Bring ye all the tithes.....
10% of all gross pay. (or actually any increase) Or 10% of net, if you tithe off your tax return.
Okay, I disagree strongly with your doctrine... but putting that aside for a second...

Your math doesn't add up here. I would get two very different numbers if I calculated out both paths.

10% of my net is 10% after taxs. My tax return does not return all the money I made to taxes, only that amount that the government decided they overcharged. Even if I'm in the bottom slot (which I left behind last year...) they don't return all of it; the social security taxes have no refund. That money doesn't return.

So if I tithe on my net, and then tithe off the tax return, that's still less than tithing off the gross.

Could you explain your math a little here? Or maybe the thinking behind this?

lucylight2
May 1st 2007, 03:23 PM
Okay, I disagree strongly with your doctrine... but putting that aside for a second...

Your math doesn't add up here. I would get two very different numbers if I calculated out both paths.

10% of my net is 10% after taxs. My tax return does not return all the money I made to taxes, only that amount that the government decided they overcharged. Even if I'm in the bottom slot (which I left behind last year...) they don't return all of it; the social security taxes have no refund. That money doesn't return.

So if I tithe on my net, and then tithe off the tax return, that's still less than tithing off the gross.

Could you explain your math a little here? Or maybe the thinking behind this?

It isn't a doctrine, and it's ok if you disagree. You are probably right. I have been saved 10 years and for 5 years that is how I have been tithing. It took me a while to be obedient to tithing. I spend $ too quick. I would spend my tithe, and end up owing it. Then for a while, I would pay my tithe and blow the rest, now how Holy is that! (no bills payed!) I have finally gotten to where I finally tithe steadily! It's taken a miracle........ :) lol (So sorry for the confusion, I stand corrected, I am not saying the gross and net thing is right out of the bible, that is just how I do it, Sorry!)

Steve M
May 1st 2007, 03:28 PM
It isn't a doctrine, and it's ok if you disagree. You are probably right. I have been saved 10 years and for 5 years that is how I have been tithing. It took me a while to be obedient to tithing. I spend $ too quick. I would spend my tithe, and end up owing it. Then for a while, I would pay my tithe and blow the rest, now how Holy is that! (no bills payed!) I have finally gotten to where I finally tithe steadily! It's taken a miracle........ :) lol (So sorry for the confusion, I stand corrected, I am not saying the gross and net thing is right out of the bible, that is just how I do it, Sorry!)
Oh, I wasn't saying I disagree with the gross and net thing, necessarily. I'm one of the anti-tithers is all. And I spent too much money on those business and accounting classes in college not quibble details on gross and net...

lucylight2
May 1st 2007, 03:31 PM
Of course, your heart needs to be in it. But this is about doing what I'm supposed to do, lest I be a cursed thief. I don't want to be cursed OR a thief, so I'll continue to give it. Regardless of whether or not I'm completely joyful of giving it, if it is a command (you are cursed and are a thief if you do not give the tithe), then that's what I will do to remain obedient.

Matthew 21:28-31

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

This passage reminded me of you today. You reminded me of the 1st son. (You are doing the will of the Father, by tithing) The 1st son wasn't all excited about it to begin with, but he did it. Where as the 2nd son said he would (and maybe acted all excited about it) but never.
Tithing has given me a closer relationship with God. I have gotten to know Him a lot better through tithing.

Magnetic
May 1st 2007, 03:48 PM
Not sure what you mean when you say that "you have gotten to know God better by tithing".

Here's the thing. This "test me and see" thing. Exactly how long are we supposed to wait until this "blessing that you will be unable to contain" comes to pass? I'm doing okay, financially, but my life is far from a blessing that I can't contain. And I've tithed for most of my working life. I know people who tithe all their life and never have much extra money for a better life. My parents tried to tithe but got further and further into debt (not much income and 4 kids). So how long does this "test" last? :confused

In the oposite, many people in the world don't tithe anything and may have a great amount of riches, blessed with many things.

But besides all that, for me it is all about keeping myself from being a cursed thief, . . . though I've heard people say that if a person DOESN'T tithe, that doesn't mean they loose their salvation. If that is the case, how does THIS thief manage to bypass Hell when the shoplifter doesn't?

diffangle
May 1st 2007, 04:10 PM
But besides all that, for me it is all about keeping myself from being a cursed thief, . . . though I've heard people say that if a person DOESN'T tithe, that doesn't mean they loose their salvation. If that is the case, how does THIS thief manage to bypass Hell when the shoplifter doesn't?


Are you saying that if you and I don't tithe, that we are thieves? :confused If so, where can I find this in the Scriptures?

Peace :)

Magnetic
May 1st 2007, 04:17 PM
Are you saying that if you and I don't tithe, that we are thieves? :confused If so, where can I find this in the Scriptures?

Peace :)


It's in the Malachi verses about robbing God of tithes and offerings.

lucylight2
May 1st 2007, 04:18 PM
Not sure what you mean when you say that "you have gotten to know God better by tithing".

He's worked obediance into me, I think is a better way of putting it!:hmm:

Magnetic
May 1st 2007, 04:31 PM
He's worked obediance into me, I think is a better way of putting it!:hmm:

Okay. I just don't see how obedience causes us to know God better, but then I've often had differing thoughts (of the spiritual nature) than a lot of main stream Christians. :) Thanks.

diffangle
May 1st 2007, 05:26 PM
The entire book of Mal. is speaking to the Priests. The Priests that are just like a lot of church leader's today sitting in their expensive homes, driving their fancy cars, wearing Armani suits and Rolex watches.


1:6 "A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a Father, where is the honor due me? If I am a Master, where is the respect due Me?" says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for My name.
"But you ask, 'How have we shown contempt for your name?'

7 "You place defiled food on my altar.
"But you ask, 'How have we defiled you?'
"By saying that the LORD's table is contemptible. 8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?" says the LORD Almighty. 9 "Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?"-says the LORD Almighty.

2: 1 "And now this admonition is for you, O priests. 2 If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me.

3 "Because of you I will rebuke [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-23107a)] your descendants [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-23107b)] ; I will spread on your faces the offal from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it. 4 And you will know that I have sent you this admonition so that my covenant with Levi may continue," says the LORD Almighty. 5 "My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. 6 True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin. 7 "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. 8 But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi," says the LORD Almighty. 9 "So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law.


3: 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites(the Priests) and refine them like gold and silver.


The Priests were/are robbing Him :cry:

Magnetic
May 1st 2007, 05:34 PM
If that verse truly IS talking to the priests, then by NOT tithing, I wouldn't be cursed OR a thief then, right?

Centurionoflight
May 1st 2007, 06:53 PM
Jesusinmyheart



You're mistaken if you think we obey to impress. And if it did indeed impress anyone it would only be God Himself.

Don't you think it's normal for children desiring to impress their father ?
If it was about obediance; there would be no horn tooting about the;

"I give, 10%, 20%, 50%, 70%. Now look at the blessing I am going to get."

Matthew 6:2
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
God desires for us to mature in spirit; we worship in spirit not in gold.

Tithing is replacing the command of the focus on the spirit to a focus on some human good that any man can do.

I all most bet you in some churchs; some guy will fall on hard times; and the first thing Christians will ask him is; "Brother, Do you tithe?"

Souled Out
May 1st 2007, 07:11 PM
Not sure what you mean when you say that "you have gotten to know God better by tithing".

Here's the thing. This "test me and see" thing. Exactly how long are we supposed to wait until this "blessing that you will be unable to contain" comes to pass? I'm doing okay, financially, but my life is far from a blessing that I can't contain. And I've tithed for most of my working life. I know people who tithe all their life and never have much extra money for a better life. My parents tried to tithe but got further and further into debt (not much income and 4 kids). So how long does this "test" last? :confused

In the oposite, many people in the world don't tithe anything and may have a great amount of riches, blessed with many things.

But besides all that, for me it is all about keeping myself from being a cursed thief, . . . though I've heard people say that if a person DOESN'T tithe, that doesn't mean they loose their salvation. If that is the case, how does THIS thief manage to bypass Hell when the shoplifter doesn't?

Mag, you're wanting this to be black and white and it isn't. Have you prayed, sat still and waited for His answer?

Seeking His face is not the same thing as seeking His hand. He'll definitely give you a hand while you're seeking His face, but you will almost always miss His face while you're seeking His hand. Which one are you seeking?

Magnetic
May 1st 2007, 07:28 PM
Mag, you're wanting this to be black and white and it isn't. Have you prayed, sat still and waited for His answer?

Seeking His face is not the same thing as seeking His hand. He'll definitely give you a hand while you're seeking His face, but you will almost always miss His face while you're seeking His hand. Which one are you seeking?

Souled Out, to be honest, I have never been able to discern what may be God speaking to me, or just my inner thoughts. I can never be absolutely sure either way, so I can't absolutely trust what I may feel even if it actually DID come from God.

And if this isn't a "black or white issue", then how are we to truly know what to do? This topic confuses me about as much as any. :confused

jiggyfly
May 1st 2007, 11:12 PM
Tithes
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. 23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. 24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: 25 then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: 26 and thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, 27 and the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 and the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


If I made 40,000.00 dollars last year and I made 40,000.00 dollars this year there is no increase. They gave a tenth of their increase in crops and herds. They ate their own tithe before God.

Study Malachi and find out that it was the priests who were robbing God of tithe and offerings. The priest was only entitled to a portion of the tithes and offerings that were given, and the remaining portions were to be put into the storage rooms to feed widows, orphans and foreigners.

But then again not many really care to know the Truth about the tithe. There's none more blind then those who refuse to see.

Studyin'2Show
May 2nd 2007, 02:29 AM
If I made 40,000.00 dollars last year and I made 40,000.00 dollars this year there is no increase. They gave a tenth of their increase in crops and herds. They ate their own tithe before God.

Study Malachi and find out that it was the priests who were robbing God of tithe and offerings. The priest was only entitled to a portion of the tithes and offerings that were given, and the remaining portions were to be put into the storage rooms to feed widows, orphans and foreigners.

But then again not many really care to know the Truth about the tithe. There's none more blind then those who refuse to see.:D You seem to be really misunderstanding the language. It wasn't like the farmer said - Oh, I harvest 20 bushels last year and only 15 this year so I won't tithe. When the crop year begins, the farmer has nothing but dirt. When your year begins, look at your pay stub totals. You start with nothing, just like the farmer's dirt. Everything that comes after is your increase.

God Bless!

jiggyfly
May 2nd 2007, 10:54 AM
:D You seem to be really misunderstanding the language. It wasn't like the farmer said - Oh, I harvest 20 bushels last year and only 15 this year so I won't tithe. When the crop year begins, the farmer has nothing but dirt. When your year begins, look at your pay stub totals. You start with nothing, just like the farmer's dirt. Everything that comes after is your increase.

God Bless!
No I think it is you who misunderstand here. Have you ever had a garden? Didn't you need more than dirt? I have always had to put seed in the ground to get a crop. When harvest time came they took back their seed and gave a tenth of what was left. If he planted 20 bushels of seed and only reaped 15 bushels then yes he did not tithe.They did not tithe on the whole flock or herd but only on the calves and lambs born that year. What do you think increase means? There is no record of anyone tithing on wages that I can find. Regardless, the tithe of the first and second year were for you and your housesold to eat before the Lord and the third year tithe is for the preist, widow, orphan, and stranger. I'll admit I'm not an expert when it comes to Jewish culture and history, but I can clearly see that what is taught as tithing today is not scriptural in the least.

You would be right to say I don't understand the language when it comes to hebrew, but my bible is written in plain english. I do understand to some degree the simplistic style of God's new covenant in Christ by which everything old is passed away (including all of the old covenant). I don't need to understand the language or any of the practices of Judaism other than they all pointed to ONE THING, Christ. When you have reached your destination do you continue to consult the map??? I abide in Christ, He is my feasts, my sabboth, He is my portion, my substance and life.

Magnetic
May 2nd 2007, 01:58 PM
Here's how I've been feeling on this topic ---> :B:bounce: :dunno:

Thanks everyone! ;)

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 05:28 PM
Magnetic,

this is why it's best to abstain from topics where people will give you various differing opinions. Seeking an answer from man will never satisfy you. Seeking an answer from God Himself will satisfy you.

If what He shows you means to you what it means, then follow whatever you believe He shows you. If later on God shows you something new, then follow that. It's really simple.
A child growing up will get differing answers at varying stages of life according to what it can understand. You may not get the full picture til God decides you're mature enough.

So search the scriptures, and go with what you see and feel you're being taught. At least that way you're taking your cues from God and not man.

Steve M
May 2nd 2007, 06:08 PM
Well, obviously I disagree with Tanja... just a little bit. I agree that man will never have the final answer. But man will ALWAYS give you three or four different answers--on any subject!

Name a point of doctrine. Something simple we all agree on. Anything. I will find you immediately ten people who disagree. On any point. Even PRAYER.

It's easy.

But how can God show you which arguement is right if you've never heard either arguement? I like to hear arguements on some subjects. It helps show me the scriptures, and what different ways they can be interpreted.

Anyhow. I agree FIRMLY with Tanja's conclusion, there. Specifically:


...taking your cues from God and not man.

That's a word of wisdom right there.

The difficulty is all in figuring out the cues God is giving you. :)

Magnetic
May 2nd 2007, 06:21 PM
That's always been my problem, though. As I stated a few posts up, I REALLY have no idea if I hear from God, or if it is just my own thoughts. The thoughts/hearing from God are not definite enough for me to say, "yes, that WAS something from God". Thus, I have a hard time relying on what I may FEEL is the way I should go because it may not be what God would have me do. I can "have faith" till I'm blue in the face, but if I'm "having faith" in a wrong idea that my mind thought up, then of what value is that "faith" if it wasn't a word from God?

This almost needs to be it's own topic. :hmm:

Centurionoflight
May 2nd 2007, 06:47 PM
Magnetic


That's always been my problem, though. As I stated a few posts up, I REALLY have no idea if I hear from God, or if it is just my own thoughts. The thoughts/hearing from God are not definite enough for me to say, "yes, that WAS something from God". Thus, I have a hard time relying on what I may FEEL is the way I should go because it may not be what God would have me do. I can "have faith" till I'm blue in the face, but if I'm "having faith" in a wrong idea that my mind thought up, then of what value is that "faith" if it wasn't a word from God?
How many times when some thing people want us to give to do they use a plea to emotion?

One should not go by their emotions or "feelings"; that in it self can lead to bondage to ones feelings.

Soon its how do I feel about that; not what does doctrine say.

Rom 16:18

or such our Lord Jesus Christ do not serve, but their own belly; and through the good word and fair speech they deceive the hearts of the harmless,

Those that do, serve their own feelings; they are not serving Christ.


We are to focus and operate on doctrine.

TheEditor
May 2nd 2007, 06:54 PM
Apparently, there is a verse in the Bible that says it is required of us to donate 10% of our earnings to God. Does this seem odd to any of you? It seems like all the evil cults out there require their members to do the same type of thing.

What's the deal?

I decided to give more than that since God gives me health, a home, salvation, he loved me so much, he promised me ethernal life etc...etc.... So what the point in keeping some of that money to yourself???

And by the way, I found out in practice that if you give God what is his he gives you amazing breaks in monetary situations from the sources you least expect....:hmm:

Magnetic
May 2nd 2007, 07:24 PM
If it IS all God's. . . . then how exactly are we giving God what God already owns? Can you see what I'm saying? Nothing we have is ours, so "giving it to God" seems to be a weird thought when it belongs to God anyway.

But again, TheEditor, you said "... if you give God what is his...", if it all belongs to God already, then "giving God what is his" would mean that everything you own is his.

:confused

Magnetic
May 2nd 2007, 07:25 PM
Magnetic


How many times when some thing people want us to give to do they use a plea to emotion?

One should not go by their emotions or "feelings"; that in it self can lead to bondage to ones feelings.

Soon its how do I feel about that; not what does doctrine say.

Rom 16:18

or such our Lord Jesus Christ do not serve, but their own belly; and through the good word and fair speech they deceive the hearts of the harmless,

Those that do, serve their own feelings; they are not serving Christ.


We are to focus and operate on doctrine.

Yet another part of the problem. We can never seem to AGREE on doctrine. :dunno:

Jesusinmyheart
May 2nd 2007, 07:28 PM
SteveM,


But how can God show you which arguement is right if you've never heard either arguement? I like to hear arguements on some subjects. It helps show me the scriptures, and what different ways they can be interpreted.

Steve, that's where you and i differ, for one, do we really need to ask others for arguements before God can reveal the truth to us ? Isn't that putting man's opinion before His very own wisdom ?
I rely on God to teach me scriptures.

When i come here and lay out what i've learned, i am not looking to man to explain things to me, but i do consider things said, and test those against scripture.

As strange as that may sound to you, i do not need arguements from men to know what God teaches me is correct. This would be mixing messages, as in person A says so and so, and person B says such and such, and neither may actually be correct. And worst of all it can lead to confusion, especially if you get into a discussion and several people say different things.

The point i was making, is that God will not deceive you, and will teach you the truth, regardless of whether you heard it before or not from any man.
There's really no need to involve men's perspectives into any of this. Why not go to God first ?

IOW, i do not need to ask anyone what God means by this or that verse, cause i can go to him, and he will teach me straight from the Word Himself.

TheEditor
May 2nd 2007, 08:35 PM
If it IS all God's. . . . then how exactly are we giving God what God already owns? Can you see what I'm saying? Nothing we have is ours, so "giving it to God" seems to be a weird thought when it belongs to God anyway.

But again, TheEditor, you said "... if you give God what is his...", if it all belongs to God already, then "giving God what is his" would mean that everything you own is his.

:confused

That is the point my friend... Don't you see it? Why keep it when it's God's? Will you take your money with you when you die? Will you take anything? I don't think so... God gave his stuff to us in order to see how we will use his stuff to help others who don't have as much stuff... When you use the money you have here wisely you are investing in the heavenly bank and there you will be able to draw your investments...

And yes everything I own is his so why should I pretend that it is mine and act like a spoiled little kid... Then God willl take away the stuff that is his from me and I will have nothing left....

Magnetic
May 2nd 2007, 09:29 PM
That is the point my friend... Don't you see it? Why keep it when it's God's? Will you take your money with you when you die? Will you take anything? I don't think so... God gave his stuff to us in order to see how we will use his stuff to help others who don't have as much stuff... When you use the money you have here wisely you are investing in the heavenly bank and there you will be able to draw your investments...

And yes everything I own is his so why should I pretend that it is mine and act like a spoiled little kid... Then God willl take away the stuff that is his from me and I will have nothing left....


So then Christian, who buy nice homes, cars, go on trips are not using God's money they way God would want them to then? Is any Christian, who has a good net worth, being a bad stewart of God's money? We should all live in "grass huts" and utilize any surplus (except food and clothing, from Walmart) for those who are poorer. . . . . . if we don't want to be a "spoiled kid" who likes to have nice things. :dunno:

diffangle
May 2nd 2007, 09:57 PM
Should offerings be given to the poor verses a guy who gives a sermon once a week or for a big fancy building?

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 2 Th 3:8

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 2 Th 3:9

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 2 Th 3:10

Centurionoflight
May 2nd 2007, 10:21 PM
TheEditor



God gave his stuff to us in order to see how we will use his stuff to help others who don't have as much stuff..


God blessed Kings David and Soloman with much.


Was they out of line when they enjoyed his blessings?

TheEditor
May 2nd 2007, 11:46 PM
TheEditor



God blessed Kings David and Soloman with much.


Was they out of line when they enjoyed his blessings?

Don't tell me you don't know what happened with Solomon and David... I would never trade lives with them....

Centurionoflight
May 2nd 2007, 11:51 PM
TheEditor



Don't tell me you don't know what happened with Solomon and David... I would never trade lives with them....
Was it because they didnt give everything to the poor?

Will giving mass stuff to others and some church prevent Gods disipline when we stray?

And

Was they out of line when they enjoyed Gods blessings upon them?

SpeakSlow
May 2nd 2007, 11:52 PM
That's always been my problem, though. As I stated a few posts up, I REALLY have no idea if I hear from God, or if it is just my own thoughts. The thoughts/hearing from God are not definite enough for me to say, "yes, that WAS something from God". Thus, I have a hard time relying on what I may FEEL is the way I should go because it may not be what God would have me do. I can "have faith" till I'm blue in the face, but if I'm "having faith" in a wrong idea that my mind thought up, then of what value is that "faith" if it wasn't a word from God?

This almost needs to be it's own topic. :hmm:

Yeah exactly, it could be from God or it could be just thoughts in your head, their is no way of knowing and I struggle with this as well.

Studyin'2Show
May 2nd 2007, 11:58 PM
Should offerings be given to the poor verses a guy who gives a sermon once a week or for a big fancy building?

Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 2 Th 3:8

Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 2 Th 3:9

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 2 Th 3:10I attend a house fellowship. No fancy buildings, no big salaries. The two of us who have been led to teach study EVERY DAY! Many times it takes several days to put together the messages. It usually takes me the entire day before to get everything put together and down on paper (usually at least 10-14hrs). We have several ministries that we do that get a good portion of the offering. A nursing home ministry, a low-income feeding ministry, a street ministry, our internet ministry; and our fellowship also supports outside ministries that build clean water wells, provide medical support to cure leprosy, that battle world hunger. You seem to be painting all those who tithe with a mighty broad brush. Also, Paul said nothing against those who labor in the word being provided for. In fact, quite the opposite.

1 Timothy 5:17-18
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

My last pastor not only taught three times a week, but also offered free counseling, spent time weekly at two different nursing homes, visited the home bound members, and was available when members called with anything from a broken down car to holding a member's hand in the hospital. When one of my youth's mom had a heart attack, he was constantly with them at the hospital (they had lost their father just two years prior and were terrified they would lose their mother). The doctor came and basically told her she was not likely to make it. The pastor rebuked him and encouraged her with scriptures on healing. Three years later and she's alive and kicking. My pastor WORKED way more than the forty hours most of us are used to.

God blessed Kings David and Soloman with much.

Was they out of line when they enjoyed his blessings?What makes you think David and Solomon did not tithe? :hmm:

Centurionoflight
May 3rd 2007, 12:02 AM
Studyin'2Show



What makes you think David and Solomon did not tithe?


Never said they didnt;

They was commanded to by the Law.

My point is more on their blessings.

Is it wrong to enjoy blessings God gives us?

Should we feel guilty, when God blesses us and not the next guy.

TheEditor
May 3rd 2007, 12:03 AM
So then Christian, who buy nice homes, cars, go on trips are not using God's money they way God would want them to then? Is any Christian, who has a good net worth, being a bad stewart of God's money? We should all live in "grass huts" and utilize any surplus (except food and clothing, from Walmart) for those who are poorer. . . . . . if we don't want to be a "spoiled kid" who likes to have nice things. :dunno:


Oh, no... You should see the house of one family that I know... But when the Christians who have all of this, keep it for themselves then they begin to sin... But when they have money and give away huge amounts of it then they are doing the right thing.... And tell me how many of those things you will take into afterlife??? Name 1 material thing... Just 1... I am interested to hear what you think you will take...

Do you see how little space we will all eventually have?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Open_coffin.jpg/800px-Open_coffin.jpg

And have you noticed that when you get that nice thing you want a new want for something even nicer arises. I am right??? So you got that new car, but now you want a better car... So you got that nice car but now you want a bigger car...

http://www.ucisa.ac.uk/events/2001/conference/papers/hulmes_files/images/Image14.png

And I never advocated living in grass huts... But we need to use common sence regarding money... You have health that allows you to work and make money. What if God decides to take the health that you have because the health is his since everything is his... You see where I am going with this???

diffangle
May 3rd 2007, 01:24 AM
You seem to be painting all those who tithe with a mighty broad brush.


Not trying to paint with a broad brush here. I just think that we need to be careful about giving our money to church leaders who are interested in riches... and while there are some leaders who are truely giving the way that they should be, you have to admit that many are living more than comfortable lives. For example, there's a church leader of a big church where I live that lives in a 3 million dollar home on the lake and has his and her Mercedes... I don't understand that. Also, I could be wrong about this but I'm gonna guess that Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, etc. are probally sitting pretty too... but again, that's just a guess. :hmm:

Studyin'2Show
May 3rd 2007, 02:17 AM
Not trying to paint with a broad brush here. I just think that we need to be careful about giving our money to church leaders who are interested in riches... and while there are some leaders who are truely giving the way that they should be, you have to admit that many are living more than comfortable lives. For example, there's a church leader of a big church where I live that lives in a 3 million dollar home on the lake and has his and her Mercedes... I don't understand that. Also, I could be wrong about this but I'm gonna guess that Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Billy Graham, etc. are probally sitting pretty too... but again, that's just a guess. :hmm:Actually. good or bad, the people you named are less than one percent of one percent. They are, by far, the minority. Most pastors are people who love the Lord and have given way more than they've received. The other guys just get more press! ;)

And Centurian, why would it be a problem to be blessed by God? We are blessed to be a blessing. We have to pray for discernment to be led by the Spirit.

TheEditor
May 3rd 2007, 02:39 AM
Will giving mass stuff to others and some church prevent Gods disipline when we stray?

I am 100% against churches that preach offering, offering and offering all the way to kingdom come... Many charismatic churches do that and I am highly critical of that. The more proper word would be that I despise those churches because all they care about is money... But I also look into Bible and see the words of Jesus about the poor woman who put everything that she had into the collection box... and Jesus said that because she put everything that she had she put much more than the people that put a lot of money because they had it... It depends with what heart you give... God loves the person who gives readily... Don't remember the exact verse....

Walstib
May 3rd 2007, 03:40 AM
If we are not to let the right hand know what the left is doing... how can you give a set % and say this is not letting both hands know what is going on?

Peace,

Joe

jiggyfly
May 3rd 2007, 10:31 AM
Yeah exactly, it could be from God or it could be just thoughts in your head, their is no way of knowing and I struggle with this as well.

The solution to your inability to know God's voice is not by following and obeying regulations. Spend more time with God alone with His word and listen. The whole new covenant is based on the ability to hear and obey Father by the empowerment of the HolySpirit. It would seem to me that you have considered the tithe because of what man says. I think you should focus on hearing God before you worry about what you should give. After all Jesus said "follow me" not follow my rules. So develope a relationship with the Godhead not adherence to a religion or format for living your life.

Studyin'2Show
May 3rd 2007, 10:33 AM
If we are not to let the right hand know what the left is doing... how can you give a set % and say this is not letting both hands know what is going on?

Peace,

JoeHow would that be any different than giving different amounts? If you do it before men was Jesus' point. Don't do it to show. Don't take a hundred dollar bill and make sure everyone sees it as you put it in the offering. Don't do that with any amount. Actually, in most churches, only around 10% of the people tithe. That includes those that teach tithing and those who don't. I have never been to a place where anyone bragged about being a tither which would be the context of what Jesus warned against.

Those in this thread like myself are merely testifying as to the faithfulness of God in every part of His word, including His promise that if we test Him in this, He will be pouring out blessings so great we won't be able to hold it all. People here still don't know how much I offer because there are other things besides the tithe that have not been mentioned. nor do I plan to lay out a laundry list for anyone's approval. I do whatever I do to please God, not to please man. And I will shout from the rooftops at the top of my lungs to His glory as to His faithfulness!

God Bless!

Jesusinmyheart
May 3rd 2007, 11:00 AM
The solution to your inability to know God's voice is not by following and obeying regulations. Spend more time with God alone with His word and listen. The whole new covenant is based on the ability to hear and obey Father by the empowerment of the HolySpirit.<SNIP>
I think you should focus on hearing God before you worry about what you should give. After all Jesus said "follow me" not follow my rules. So develope a relationship with the Godhead not adherence to a religion or format for living your life.


That's the biggest dichotomy i ever heard :lol:






Sorry dude, it's sad really, it kinda made me go :o