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Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 08:09 PM
Is there a single stream of thinking that can be learned from scripture?

One that formulates whole ideas; that we can learn and appy to our life.

I lean to that there are whole teachings we can learn and test with scripture;

We are told to abide in a "doctrine"

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
It doesnt say abide in this view of this verse or that view of that verse.


I found of a course of time; that every discussion on the bible went into this line or that line;

They ignored the knowledge or doctrine.

They was a fruitless discussion, no focus on understanding.
No focus on truth; just on who could be right.


To go upon this verse or that verse; ignoring the over all doctrine is compared in scripture as the act of a drunken teacher.


Isaiah 28
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
{What of a focus on the knowledge or as I call it the doctrine}
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
{The mind filled with liquor{human view point} thinks like this.}

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

And Again this is stated.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
With a warning that this type of thinking leads to RUIN!


I think there is a call upon us to think beyond this line or that line; and take a focus on the total doctrine or teaching thatis occuring.

This is well with in the call and realm of proper bible study.

taddy
Apr 16th 2007, 08:32 PM
CENTERION QUOTED


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Now you are starting a thread just to imply that I do not have God. You have no right or Biblical authoirity to do so.

TADDY

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 08:35 PM
taddy



Now you are starting a thread just to imply that I do not have God. You have no right or Biblical authoirity to do so.
Frankly; the focus here is trying to be in the doctrine.

I have not used your name; nor any one elses to start this thread.

I have laid out a case for my position; of doctrine being a factor for biblical understanding.

I am trying to cover the concept of whole teaching and concepts rather than line upon line teaching.

Which to me;
I would see as a profitable discussion, thus why I started this thread.

taddy
Apr 16th 2007, 08:47 PM
Dear friends,

I love Jesus with all my heart and will serve him forever. I do not choose to walk away from him. I have views on scripture and live by Bible doctrine. God allows for difference of views. That is why Romans 12:18 says: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

With that in mind, I sincerly apologize for posts that had to be deleted.

Tad

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2007, 09:29 PM
COL,


my oh my, you're opening a huge can of worms, and this thread will be a hotbed of trouble. :rolleyes:


Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.Q: What is the correct docrtine then ?

A: The doctrine of Yshua the Messiah !


2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
However, in this day and age, many claim to have the true way.
So you'll not get anything accomplished by these statements.

BTW:
Rom 2:21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? :lol:

Ergo: The conclusion is: that only through dilligent study you will find the true doctrine of Messiah, by laying aside all manmade doctrine.


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts;

This happened even in the days of the apostels.


1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn't consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such.
This here refers to the Pharisees who had bound up burdens upon people's necks (Fence laws or by laws if you will to keep people from transgressing the laws which is sin), which they themselves were not willing to bear.
They were so caught up in trying to make sure that no one fell to sin, that they considered those that violated even one of their fence laws a transgressor :

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Luk 11:46 And he said, "Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers.



Their Pride made them drunken as with wine, as we see here:


Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!


Is
aiah 28: 7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

The thing about precept upon precept was about Yeshua feeding the Pharisees and Saducees the truth little by little, as we see here:

I
sa 28:13 And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 [b]Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers, who rule this people in Jerusalem! [B/]

Anyway..... you're sure to get a lot of responses. :lol:

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 09:42 PM
Jesusinmyheart



my oh my, you're opening a huge can of worms, and this thread will be a hotbed of trouble.
{grin}




However, in this day and age, many claim to have the true way.
So you'll not get anything accomplished by these statements.

Ergo: The conclusion is: that only through dilligent study you will find the true doctrine of Messiah, by laying aside all manmade doctrine.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts;


Correct;

One thing I have learned is the doctrine of God; doesnt conflict.
God isnt the author of confusion.

So when one states a point of view;

I cross referance it with other doctrines looking for a conflict.



Their Pride made them drunken as with wine, as we see here:

The thing about precept upon precept was about Yeshua feeding the Pharisees and Saducees the truth little by little, as we see here:
Umm they was drunk with wine and proud to boot. {Nothing worse than a proud know it all drunk.}

Verse 10 states more to the point i was trying to make.

{Think of this from a view of a drunk; I have been around a few in my time, so this make sense to me.}


Verse 8 and 9 goes into teaching doctrine.
Isa 28
8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
{ Kinda hard to sit down and study when the tables are full of vomit; thsu study was not a first place theng.}

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
{
How can they teach knowledge or understanding?
How can the teach the young?

They are in the mindset of;}

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
{This is the mental state of the drunk}

God the spirit thru Isaiah is mocking them in a way.

Walstib
Apr 16th 2007, 09:48 PM
Interesting as I am in complete agreement that the doctrines, the full counsels of scripture is more important than squibbling over one verse you can make say multiple things.

Then I also see the verse from Isaiah supporting that instead of speaking against it.

Doctrine is built, with a piece here and a piece there. This on top of that with God in trinity as the foundation. Not just a little here but from there as well. Revealing the true "doctrine" as all the pieces come together.

Logical conclusions can be made from different pieces out of place but if they do not stand firm all the way down the line to the foundation they topple over when tried to make fit into the whole.

We each build our own doctrine as we grow, no two people know all the same teachings or believe all the same things. No two people are at the same place in growth. There is only one truth and I have seen ones that I had wrong over time and with study that had to be discarded as a mistake. There is no "one doctrine", but many like different rooms in a mansion, the Great Architect having drawn them and slowly we get to see more and more of that building until in heaven we will see it in it's entirety.

Very important subject I think.

Joe

Walstib
Apr 16th 2007, 10:02 PM
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (Isa 28:13)

And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. (Isa 8:14-15)

If Jesus "stone of stumbling" Himself causes them to fall be broken.. etc. I don’t see that the aforementioned verse means the “thing” causing the fall to be a “bad thing”. More of a good thing serving the purpose of God’s plan.

My take….

Joe

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2007, 10:02 PM
Col,

:lol: i liked that explanation about tables full of litteral vomit. Though i'm not sure i can agree, cause i really don't know that the Pharisees and Sadducees drank themselevs into a stupor, but i suppose the Ephraimites did.
EWW (not so nice mental images coming up)

I do however agree that scripture proves itself by other scripture. It's all one hige complete puzzle, but one has to study to fit the pieces together, and that only happens with the help of the Spirit.

However, that still doesn't solve the problem of all the different views and doctrines abounding. Though it is my belief, that everything is coming together slowly, and many will find the the correct doctrine.

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 10:15 PM
Walstib



Then I also see the verse from Isaiah supporting that instead of speaking against it.

Doctrine is built, with a piece here and a piece there. This on top of that with God in trinity as the foundation. Not just a little here but from there as well. Revealing the true "doctrine" as all the pieces come together.


What you are saying is a combine of doctrines for a concept; for knowledge.

Like example;

God is perfect.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is a doctrine we know; supported by other doctrines.

Therefore Jesus being God; must also be perfect.


Hebrews 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And Christ being perfect can perfect thru his work, those who are not perfect.


Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Therefore we know that thru Christ; we can be found perfect to God who is perfect..


Isaiah 28 is addressing the LINES and jots, the fussing over a verse; it removes the knowledge from the learning and instead focuses on this line and that to form a path to follow..
isa 28

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them

precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little;

that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Line by line teaching does not create knowledge and understanding;
It creates a legalism style of check list; some path that you can follow.


Its result is ruin, so it is a type of thinking we should avoid.

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 10:20 PM
Jesusinmyheart



i liked that explanation about tables full of litteral vomit. Though i'm not sure i can agree, cause i really don't know that the Pharisees and Sadducees drank themselevs into a stupor, but i suppose the Ephraimites did.
EWW (not so nice mental images coming up)
After Romans as perhaps my favorate book; I am really starting to love the book of Isaiah.
The some of the imagery in it is priceless. {Esp isa 64:6 filthy rags in the hebrew view is actualy the menstral rags, which would be very unclean to the hebrew mindset.}




However, that still doesn't solve the problem of all the different views and doctrines abounding. Though it is my belief, that everything is coming together slowly, and many will find the the correct doctrine.

I dont see all those different things as a issue; when one focuses on the thinking of Christ and his doctrine as foremost.

If one is looking at their fellow man; then it could create a issue.

punk
Apr 16th 2007, 10:33 PM
So:

How does one "abide" in doctrine?

What does one actually do with this doctrine which they are "abiding" in?

Are we just talking about sitting contentedly on our rear thinking little doctrinally correct thoughts here?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2007, 11:16 PM
I dont see all those different things as a issue; when one focuses on the thinking of Christ and his doctrine as foremost.

Well it certainly isn't an issue for me at all. I do my study, and i'm happy...

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 11:17 PM
punk


How does one "abide" in doctrine?

What does one actually do with this doctrine which they are "abiding" in?

Are we just talking about sitting contentedly on our rear thinking little doctrinally correct thoughts here?
I would not discredit "contentedly on our rear thinking little doctrinally correct thoughts"

One must have the correct thoughts; before they can have the correct actions.

Man wants to skip over the training; and get to something they can do.
This will lead to flawed and ineffective action.

punk
Apr 16th 2007, 11:23 PM
punk
I would not discredit "contentedly on our rear thinking little doctrinally correct thoughts"

One must have the correct thoughts; before they can have the correct actions.

Man wants to skip over the training; and get to something they can do.
This will lead to flawed and ineffective action.

So what kind of correct actions follow from these correct thoughts?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2007, 11:28 PM
Punk,

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
Jas 1:24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Walstib
Apr 16th 2007, 11:35 PM
What you are saying is a combine of doctrines for a concept; for knowledge.

Like example;



God is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.This is a doctrine we know; supported by other doctrines.

Therefore Jesus being God; must also be perfect.


Hebrews 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;And Christ being perfect can perfect thru his work, those who are not perfect.


Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.Therefore we know that thru Christ; we can be found perfect to God who is perfect...

On this we are in complete agreement. A great doctrine Did you not just build that putting precept upon precept?? ;)




Isaiah 28 is addressing the LINES and jots, the fussing over a verse; it removes the knowledge from the learning and instead focuses on this line and that to form a path to follow..

isa 28

Line by line teaching does not create knowledge and understanding;
It creates a legalism style of check list; some path that you can follow.


Its result is ruin, so it is a type of thinking we should avoid.


I must still disagree here as I think it is out of context. As stated just before....

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (Isa 28:9-12)


I see it in line with Jesus as the stumbling stone..

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1Pe 2:7-8)

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Mat 21:44)

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:14-15)

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 9:31-33)

By not building with line upon line and just going with one verse out of context to prove your point out of selfishness you will stumble.. By sticking with the law and not trusting in the end of the law through Jesus they would find ruin by not doing so but peace by accepting Him as the truth and Savior.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept

Why say "must" here?

And why do I feel like I am dangerously close to doing what this post is speaking againt ;)

Joe

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 11:44 PM
Walstib


On this we are in complete agreement. A great doctrine Did you not just build that putting precept upon precept??


Perhaps the Literal version shows more of the legalism I am trying to point out at work



10 For rule [is] on rule, rule on rule, line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,


To them it is about this rule and that rule.




I see it in line with Jesus as the stumbling stone..


Jesus is the stumbling stone for legalism.
Man thru mans work cant impress God; they stumble over Christ.

They have their rule upon rule, they follow.
They dont need christ.

punk
Apr 16th 2007, 11:52 PM
Punk,

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
Jas 1:24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Well in some other threads Centurionoflight has had some views regarding the doing of the word that I found peculiar.

I'm interested to see what, in his view, doing consists of.

Centurionoflight
Apr 16th 2007, 11:52 PM
punk



So what kind of correct actions follow from these correct thoughts?


The action God sends for us.

When we are ready God will use us, until then train and prepare.

Think of Joseph; many years in Jail, SITTING.

Then when God saw him as ready, he used him.

Even Paul had to be sat down a few times to cool his heels.

In the military;

How many times does a person sit at base and train a action over and over, waiting for that time when in battle he will use what he has learned.

How many times does a infantry man shoot his rifle, training for the day of battle?

Problem with Christians today; is they want to grab a rifle and rush straight into battle.

All full of yee-haaw emotion.

The spiritual battle field is littered with their corpses, for they never took the time to train.

punk
Apr 16th 2007, 11:57 PM
punk



The action God sends for us.

When we are ready God will use us, until then train and prepare.

Think of Joseph; many years in Jail, SITTING.

Then when God saw him as ready, he used him.

Even Paul had to be sat down a few times to cool his heels.

In the military;

How many times does a person sit at base and train a action over and over, waiting for that time when in battle he will use what he has learned.

How many times does a infantry man shoot his rifle, training for the day of battle?

Problem with Christians today; is they want to grab a rifle and rush straight into battle.

All full of yee-haaw emotion.

The spiritual battle field is littered with their corpses, for they never took the time to train.

Well, there is the other side of the coin too, now isn't there?

And by that I mean the person that is so focussed on perfecting a skill that they die without ever using it.

This might be the person that refuses to write a book until they know they can write a perfect book, and so never writes a book at all.

Practice can be nothing more than a cowardly excuse never to do anything.

But you didn't really answer my question. You see the Bible tells us to do quite a number of things, like help the poor. But you don't think helping the poor is much of a Christian action now do you?

Are you telling me that the Christian is to wait and hone himself until God sends him on some Earth shattering action like Joseph? That is like the writer above.

There are actions to be engaged in in every hour of every day.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 16th 2007, 11:57 PM
Hebrews 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;And Christ being perfect can perfect thru his work, those who are not perfect.

I want to have some special attention paid a small word here, which appears a condition to being saved:


he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;It doesn't say he became the author of eternal salvation to those that just listened, or believed, but OBEYED....

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 12:02 AM
punk


Well, there is the other side of the coin too, now isn't there?

And by that I mean the person that is so focussed on perfecting a skill that they die without ever using it.

This might be the person that refuses to write a book until they know they can write a perfect book, and so never writes a book at all.

Practice can be nothing more than a cowardly excuse never to do anything.

But you didn't really answer my question. You see the Bible tells us to do quite a number of things, like help the poor. But you don't think helping the poor is much of a Christian action now do you?

Are you telling me that the Christian is to wait and hone himself until God sends him on some Earth shattering action like Joseph? That is like the writer above.

There are actions to be engaged in in every hour of every day.


We are not our own.

In the military;

If one rushed out to shoot the commies; without orders.

What would occur?

We are in a spiritual battle.

God is our commander; he will use us when we are ready.

When he does it will be very effective.

For us to rush out in flailing disarry; does nothing.

punk
Apr 17th 2007, 12:04 AM
punk


We are not our own.

In the military;

If one rushed out to shoot the commies; without orders.

What would occur?

We are in a spiritual battle.

God is our commander; he will use us when we are ready.

When he does it will be very effective.

For us to rush out in flailing disarry; does nothing.

I believe God has issued quite a number of marching orders in the Bible:

Feed the hungry
Visit the prisoners
Clothe the naked

In the military, what is it they do to someone who fails to carry out orders?

I think they end up in prison, if not outright executed.

Doesn't God have something like a prison?

Walstib
Apr 17th 2007, 12:07 AM
Walstib

Perhaps the Literal version shows more of the legalism I am trying to point out at work

10 For rule [is] on rule, rule on rule, line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,


To them it is about this rule and that rule.

Jesus is the stumbling stone for legalism.
Man thru mans work cant impress God; they stumble over Christ.

They have their rule upon rule, they follow.
They don’t need Christ.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. (Mat 23:23-27)

I guess I still see it different. Instead of taking the full counsel of the scriptures and doing "all" of it.... all the lines and precepts... they only took the ones they wanted and left out the ones that would be "hard" on them or disagreed with what they were teaching.

Well I am not here to convince you of anything, still an important topic whatever way God gets us here... And I do see the truth in what you are saying yourself with the rules and law being made into a burden... just don't see the evidence is found here.

Peace,

Joe

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 12:09 AM
Jesusinmyheart



I want to have some special attention paid a a small word here, which appears a preriquisite to being
saved:

It doesn't say he became the author of those that just listened, or believed, but OBEYED....


Which is the basic or milk teachings

That being

heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Obeying God is to turn to Christ in faith; rather than our own dead works.

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 12:14 AM
Walstib



Well I am not here to convince you of anything, still an important topic whatever way God gets us here... And I do see the truth in what you are saying yourself with the rules and law being made into a burden... just don't see the evidence is found here.



It is a harder concept to grasp;

Perhaps I didnt understand your view.

The law can only judge, it can never save.

What the hebrews of that day was doing; was using the judgments of the law as a means to salvation.

Many today are doing that also Using this verse or that verse as a means of salvation; and ignoring the doctrine of Christ.

I wish to have more of a focus on the whole teaching; the thinking of Christ; when looking at a subject.

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 12:22 AM
punk



I believe God has issued quite a number of marching orders in the Bible:

Feed the hungry
Visit the prisoners
Clothe the naked

In the military, what is it they do to someone who fails to carry out orders?

I think they end up in prison, if not outright executed.

Doesn't God have something like a prison?

All of those have a focus on man.
Where is the focus on God?

All because we are good with man; does in no way mean we are good with God.


The command to finish our course.

Hebrews 12

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If we dont stay on course there is much God does to us, running around doing those good things; is that really a focus on finishing the course? Or is it a distraction from the course of righteousness into the pit of human good and evil.

Heb 5


13for every one who is partaking of milk [is] unskilled in the word of righteousness -- for he is an infant,


14and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 17th 2007, 12:28 AM
Jesus is the stumbling stone for legalism.
Man thru mans work cant impress God; they stumble over Christ.

Define Legalism.....

Punk, sit back and watch :lol:

punk
Apr 17th 2007, 12:37 AM
punk


All of those have a focus on man.
Where is the focus on God?




A good soldier doesn't question orders on account of not seeing the overall strategy.

A good soldier says "Yes sir!" and does what he is told.

God has ordered what God has ordered. Who are we to question why?

Teke
Apr 17th 2007, 12:45 AM
Is there a single stream of thinking that can be learned from scripture?


Yes, but you have to go back to the first century teachers and learn it. :D
There are not to many Christians willing to seek Him, but rather their own understanding, which makes for many streams of thinking
(try the spirits for they are many, and are not all of God).

Walstib
Apr 17th 2007, 12:47 AM
Walstib
It is a harder concept to grasp;

Perhaps I didnt understand your view.

The law can only judge, it can never save.

What the hebrews of that day was doing; was using the judgments of the law as a means to salvation.

Many today are doing that also Using this verse or that verse as a means of salvation; and ignoring the doctrine of Christ.

I wish to have more of a focus on the whole teaching; the thinking of Christ; when looking at a subject.

I grasp the concept and agree with what you have just stated. Though the law was integrated for the Jews and salvation in it's own way to my understanding. Reagrdless of how some Jews were using it to thier own advantage.

Peace,

Joe

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 17th 2007, 12:52 AM
Milk versus meat:
Let us understand what is meant by milk and the meat

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Heb 5:10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Constant practise constitutes a doing of what was learned, which is the meat
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity,
The elementary doctrine of Christ is this:
not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

IOW, They were speaking of the Pharisees that had those manmade rules that had nothing to do with what scripture actually commands us to do. And with that i mean a deviation from the OT commandments.

Kind of like this: The pharisees said one could not eat grain in a field on sabbath, but Yeshua said it was not wrong and it wasn't cause Yeshua changed a Law, but because there's nothing in the OT Law speaking to the contrary.

Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

FWIF, i did not intend on turning this into thread different than it started, but as far as the Doctrine of Christ is concerned, i wanted to give my 2 cents on what i see.

Teke
Apr 17th 2007, 12:53 AM
I believe God has issued quite a number of marching orders in the Bible:

Feed the hungry
Visit the prisoners
Clothe the naked

Ah, but many prefer to choose which one's to do. And they seem to like the, 'comfort yourselves together" command, and how they interpret that one, the best. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Apr 17th 2007, 01:02 AM
Is there a single stream of thinking that can be learned from scripture?

<SNIP>


Short answer is... YES.

The sum of thy word is truth...

Walstib
Apr 17th 2007, 01:05 AM
Kind of like this: The pharisees said one could not eat grain in a field on sabbath, but Yeshua said it was not wrong and it wasn't cause Yeshua changed a Law, but because there's nothing in the OT Law speaking to the contrary.

Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day isthe Sabbath of the LORD your God. In ityou shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who iswithin your gates. For insix days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that isin them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Exo 20:9-11)

Removing the husk from the wheat kernel was work... just as they were to gather things and store them up for the Sabbath as with the manna, it was against the law to pick and husk grain as I understand things.

Sorry for jumping in but I have always understood it this way and your way of presenting that idea is new to me. Always open to being shown where I may be wrong if you have witness to contrary. There are many other examples for what your main point was... I am just not sure this is one of them...

Peace,

Joe

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 17th 2007, 05:42 AM
Walstib, Yeshua and his disciples that day were not preparing a meal, which clearly is forbidden on the Sabbath, but you will not find anything in the bible that prohibits the rubbing of grain in one's had to appease hunger.

From what i learned is, that since our Father and creator sanctified the seventh day and rested that day, he abstained from the work of creating. So this is basically what one is not to do on the Sabbath, any kind of work that creates something, i.e alters the environment.

One was not to set a fire and use it for cooking, as that definetly was altering/creating. The disciples that day rubbed the heads of grain to get the seeds out to eat. I guess one could get technical and say they were altering something, but this is what Yeshuia was so frustrated with: The Pharisees being so darned technical with the law.

Yeshua made a point:

Luk 13:15 Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it?

The Pharisees and Saduccees took this whole law to a new and extreme level.

Such as limiting the distance one could walk, such as what size of item one could pick up off the ground etc. And woe to the person that didn't follow their fence laws created to limit the chance someone would actually violate a Law, that person was then considered a transgressor.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Apr 17th 2007, 02:39 PM
Walstib, Yeshua and his disciples that day were not preparing a meal, which clearly is forbidden on the Sabbath, but you will not find anything in the bible that prohibits the rubbing of grain in one's had to appease hunger.

From what i learned is, that since our Father and creator sanctified the seventh day and rested that day, he abstained from the work of creating. So this is basically what one is not to do on the Sabbath, any kind of work that creates something, i.e alters the environment.

One was not to set a fire and use it for cooking, as that definetly was altering/creating. The disciples that day rubbed the heads of grain to get the seeds out to eat. I guess one could get technical and say they were altering something, but this is what Yeshuia was so frustrated with: The Pharisees being so darned technical with the law.

Yeshua made a point:

Luk 13:15 Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it?

The Pharisees and Saduccees took this whole law to a new and extreme level.

Such as limiting the distance one could walk, such as what size of item one could pick up off the ground etc. And woe to the person that didn't follow their fence laws created to limit the chance someone would actually violate a Law, that person was then considered a transgressor.

Shalom,
Tanja
Let's do it this way. You have eaten your prepared Sabbath food and up to your home comes a stranger who is hungry. You send them away because you cannot cook anything for him because it is the Sabbath and therefore the guy just has to go away hungry so you don't break the law. Yet in doing that... you broke the law. Jesus made the example many times and He asked the question many times... it is unlawful to do good to another on the Sabbath? That whole... if your ox fell in a hole on the Sabbath wouldn't you pull him out? Sure they would. And just as well... you should prepare food and feed the hungry man even if it is on the Sabbath. It is okay to do good on the Sabbath... even if it means preparing a meal for someone hungry and in need.

Legalism is looking for loopholes. A loophole would be "they didn't prepare it but picked it and ate it raw therefore it is not a violation."

That would be proper doctrine built on many passages in the gospels and swinging the thread back on track. ;)

Sold Out
Apr 17th 2007, 02:57 PM
taddy

Frankly; the focus here is trying to be in the doctrine.

I have not used your name; nor any one elses to start this thread.

I have laid out a case for my position; of doctrine being a factor for biblical understanding.

I am trying to cover the concept of whole teaching and concepts rather than line upon line teaching.

Which to me;
I would see as a profitable discussion, thus why I started this thread.

So what you are saying/asking is how do you define biblical doctrine?

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 17th 2007, 03:11 PM
PP,
This is not legalism, nor a loopphole. As Yeshua Himself proved the Pharisees that complained about His disciples plucking grain wrong.

And as for the stranger coming to my house and me cooking for him if i had eaten up all my prepared food already, that is not a problem for me, cause i agree with you, that it is lawfull to do good on Sabbath. ;)

I do not adhere to the law with the strictness, and especially not to the addition to the Laws of the Pharisees PP, however, i do adhere to the Torah Law, the Law that God gave to Moses, as i do not see it having been nullified.

So whatever Law still applies to me individually today, i will try to obey out of love for my God. It does not earn me salvation, agreed, but it does afford me an intimate relationship with my Father.

And this is just a quick response to your reply, and if you want to debate this further, please open a new thread, and i'll be happy to keep this one on topic, and take this topic up with you ;)

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 05:41 PM
Jesusinmyheart



Define Legalism.....

Punk, sit back and watch


Thought I did.

Legalism = Man thru mans work seeks to impress God.

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 05:45 PM
Jesusinmyheart



IOW, They were speaking of the Pharisees that had those manmade rules that had nothing to do with what scripture actually commands us to do. And with that i mean a deviation from the OT commandments.

Kind of like this: The pharisees said one could not eat grain in a field on sabbath, but Yeshua said it was not wrong and it wasn't cause Yeshua changed a Law, but because there's nothing in the OT Law speaking to the contrary.



Not sure how you are seeing this as milk and meat;

The pharisees had no spiritual food what so ever; what they had was human viewpoint.

Milk is the basic teachings; meat is the advanced doctrines.

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 05:49 PM
Sold Out



So what you are saying/asking is how do you define biblical doctrine?


My point is there is teaching behind the lines of verses.

This teaching should be our focus, to learn and apply.

Centurionoflight
Apr 17th 2007, 05:50 PM
pp



Legalism is looking for loopholes. A loophole would be "they didn't prepare it but picked it and ate it raw therefore it is not a violation."


That is what many of the religious men of Christ day was doing.

ProjectPeter
Apr 17th 2007, 05:54 PM
pp



That is what many of the religious men of Christ day was doing.
Sure it is and many still do so today in a variety of ways.

Walstib
Apr 17th 2007, 06:00 PM
My point is there is teaching behind the lines of verses.

This teaching should be our focus, to learn and apply.

How does one understand the teaching behind the lines?

It could be dangerous ground as it almost sounds like personal revelation should be trusted before scripture as I am reading that.

The underlying teaching is proven by the lines…. No?

I agree that the teachings, the doctrines, that harmonize the whole of scriptures can not conflict and that individual scriptures can be twisted to suit ones own purpose. But I do think that all the lines and precepts together are the final authority and any personal revelation has to be in accord with them.

Agree?

Joe

Walstib
Apr 17th 2007, 06:06 PM
Walstib, Yeshua and his disciples that day were not preparing a meal, which clearly is forbidden on the Sabbath, but you will not find anything in the bible that prohibits the rubbing of grain in one's had to appease hunger.

Thanks for the reply.... don't want to derail the thread.

I would join the topic if it appears.

Peace,

Joe

Philip dT
Apr 18th 2007, 02:32 PM
I would say the ideal will probably be to learn to listen to the Holy Spirit better in order to become a better hermeneut, for the Spirit is the ultimate Hermeneut of Scripture. The Spirit in Himself (who inspired Scripture) is totally coherent. Although Scripture itself has lots of contingent factors (e.g. individual personality of writers, language, cultural and symbolical universe, etc.), the challenge is to be aware where the coherency lies.

I think no one's "hearing" (from the Spirit) is perfect. That's one of the reasons we do not all agree to everything - apart from having different personalities and perspectives. All of our individual "hearing" is clouded to some degree. I think all of us must be aware of this and acknowledge our own inadequacy. Yet, I would say that we will get closer to the coherency behind the Bible if we are in unity. Some interesting Scriptures:

Phi 1:27 "Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, striving together with one mind for the faith of the gospel,"

Phi 2:2 "then fulfill my joy, that you may be like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord and of one mind."

I would say that if we focus on what we agree on, there is a bigger chance of believing in the same doctrine, as when we focus on our differences. Focusing on our differences also draws our attention away from the Spirit (spiritual dimension), more to the natural dimension, I would say.

JIMNSC
Apr 18th 2007, 05:52 PM
At the risk of sounding facetious, are there any among us who deem they have a good handle on the doctrine of Jesus Christ? All of it - part of it.....? I would seriously love to hear comments.

Thanks - Jim

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 06:15 PM
Walstib



How does one understand the teaching behind the lines?

It could be dangerous ground as it almost sounds like personal revelation should be trusted before scripture as I am reading that.


The whole teachings and principals do not conflict;

If there is conflict and thing that dont seem to line up; then chances are there is something amiss of truth gumming up the works.



The underlying teaching is proven by the lines…. No?


Also proven by other doctrines.



I agree that the teachings, the doctrines, that harmonize the whole of scriptures can not conflict and that individual scriptures can be twisted to suit ones own purpose. But I do think that all the lines and precepts together are the final authority and any personal revelation has to be in accord with them.



What is it the lines are trying to teach, the spirit of the law, so to speak.

2 Corinthians 3:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We have to have a focus on the spirit that is behind what is written.

Instead it is this verse or that verse; and there is a ignoring of the spirit.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The heart of the speaker must also be looked at;

What is the intent or thoughts?

Many get annoyed when I go down that path, however it is totally with in biblical context.

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 06:18 PM
JIMNSC



At the risk of sounding facetious, are there any among us who deem they have a good handle on the doctrine of Jesus Christ? All of it - part of it.....? I would seriously love to hear comments.



I believe it is possible for one to know and understand much of it.

Paul seemed to think he had finished the course that was before him.

This shows personal awareness of Gods will for his life and how he fit into that plan.

2 Timothy 4:7

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

He would have had to have a good handle on Christs doctrine to understand all that.

Philip dT
Apr 18th 2007, 06:35 PM
At the risk of sounding facetious, are there any among us who deem they have a good handle on the doctrine of Jesus Christ? All of it - part of it.....? I would seriously love to hear comments.

Thanks - Jim

Not that I necessarily will have all the answers, but what aspects of Christ are you trying to understand better? I will see where I can help.

JIMNSC
Apr 18th 2007, 07:23 PM
First, a comment on Paul having a good handle on doctrine. I agree but I also think he understood it much clearer than he wrote it (if that makes sense to you). 2 Peter 3:16 - Peter acknowledged the same thing concerning some of Paul's writings. Now, on to a discussion in the book of John.

Now, let me preface any further remarks with saying I belong to a Baptist church but do not totally share Baptist doctrine. I believe, if the Bible says something simply, theologians (et al) don't need to apply their "spin" to making it mean something else.

Example - This past Sunday's Bible Study lesson was entitled "Humble Service" and I'll try to be brief. The books were Lifeway books. Scripture came from John 13:1-17 and of course covered Jesus washing the disciples' feet. Lifeway said (quote), "Jesus was not trying to institute foot washing as a ritual of the early church." Jesus showed by His actions what real humility was to a group of men who earlier had been jockeying for position in His kingdom.

Here's what Jesus told the disciples.

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. (KJV)

The teacher then went into a long dissertation agreeing with Lifeway's statement and added that we don't do that today because we don't wear sandals and walk through the sand and dirt. Had I been one of the disciples, I would have taken Jesus at His word and assumed He intended for us to continue the example He showed us that day.

You've all seen, read, or maybe even participated in debating this issue. I have seen foot washing referred to as the "Forgotten Ordinance." Foot washing, of course, is not an ordinance in our church - only baptism and the Lord's supper.

Question - How much plainer can something be written than the above two verses in John 13? Jesus didn't tell them they should do something similar - he told them they should wash each other's feet just like He did theirs. My dilemma is not caring to debate the issue but to ask your opinions of what the cited scripture intended (there are numerous other examples).

Thoughts?

Walstib
Apr 18th 2007, 07:27 PM
The whole teachings and principals do not conflict;


If there is conflict and thing that dont seem to line up; then chances are there is something amiss of truth gumming up the works. .

Are teachings and principles not the same thing as precepts? I am still thinking about the Ezekiel verse here more than your overall comment.

I trust you are not saying the bible has it wrong because the words have been “gummed up”. Am I trusting right?



Also proven by other doctrines. .

Agreed with the “also”.. everything in harmony.



What is it the lines are trying to teach, the spirit of the law, so to speak.


2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
We have to have a focus on the spirit that is behind what is written.

Instead it is this verse or that verse; and there is a ignoring of the spirit. .


Come now…. All this good talk about not taking snippets to prove what you want to and then you take this verse to make it say what you want. Is the doctrine behind that verse not that the Mosaic law, written on tablets of stone, is the old and kills but the law of the spirit of life is the new, written on the faithful’s new hearts. To make that verse say that “written” means “all things in the scriptures” .. I don’t know about that…. It’s like the Sprit is testifying against that interpretation inside me…. Leading to thought of all sorts of scriptures that disagree with that conclusion. Hmmm… is that not the harmony we should be looking for. While still being willing to be shown as wrong. Verse upon verse, not this verse or that verse….



Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The heart of the speaker must also be looked at;

What is the intent or thoughts?

Many get annoyed when I go down that path, however it is totally with in biblical context.

The word is the sword that divides, the thoughts and intents of the heart do not divide the word. To me the way you are presenting it you have it backwards.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (Joh 5:46-47)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Act 17:11)

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:15-17)

I am not dismissing the importance of being taught by the Holy Spirit, never “study without Him”. I do believe that someone can learn truth alone on a desert island with no bible by the Holy Spirit. But why even say it is in biblical context if the “letter kills” as you put above.

Am I just not understanding you yet?

Joe

(sorry about the quoting mess.... I am trying to figure out why this has started)

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 07:43 PM
JIMNSC



Question - How much plainer can something be written than the above two verses in John 13? Jesus didn't tell them they should do something similar - he told them they should wash each other's feet just like He did theirs. My dilemma is not caring to debate the issue but to ask your opinions of what the cited scripture intended (there are numerous other examples).


Many things Christ did as a teaching example of another doctrine, a example they could see and understand.

Christ was about to depart;
They are to also look after each other; and keep each other "clean" just like the teacher kept them clean.

This is what Paul did, in essence, when he talked with Peter about his actions.

punk
Apr 18th 2007, 07:46 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Centurionoflight holds that while we must take Genesis and the Sun standing still literally, pretty much everything else is figurative.

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 07:59 PM
Walstib



Are teachings and principles not the same thing as precepts?


Not really.



Come now…. All this good talk about not taking snippets to prove what you want to and then you take this verse to make it say what you want. Is the doctrine behind that verse not that the Mosaic law, written on tablets of stone, is the old and kills but the law of the spirit of life is the new, written on the faithful’s new hearts. To make that verse say that “written” means “all things in the scriptures” .. I don’t know about that…. It’s like the Sprit is testifying against that interpretation inside me…. Leading to thought of all sorts of scriptures that disagree with that conclusion. Hmmm… is that not the harmony we should be looking for. While still being willing to be shown as wrong. Verse upon verse, not this verse or that verse….


In essence isnt what many christians do day; is what the jews did with the law of moses?



I am not dismissing the importance of being taught by the Holy Spirit, never “study without Him”. I do believe that someone can learn truth alone on a desert island with no bible by the Holy Spirit. But why even say it is in biblical context if the “letter kills” as you put above.

Am I just not understanding you yet?


Perhaps I am not saying it in a manner that can be understood.

Some how you seem to think I am discrediting the word.

Rather I am saying the word can be turned into a dead law, that can only condemn.

Does that make it wrong?

No.

It makes it misused.

Remember

John 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This truth is the knowledge that I am addressing.
This truth is the THINKING behind the words.

This spirit or teaching that is behind the letters is ignored when people just focus on fussing over the letter.

When one is just fussing over the letters and not addressing the spirit behind the letters; then they are staggering like a spiritual drunk; line upon line; law upon law; here and there.

When some one posts a verse; part of the address is what was the spirit of thinking behind that verse; what is the mind of Christ in that verse trying to say.

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 08:00 PM
punk


Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Centurionoflight holds that while we must take Genesis and the Sun standing still literally, pretty much everything else is figurative.

No idea what you are saying; other than it sounds like a character attack and a derail.

punk
Apr 18th 2007, 08:15 PM
punk


No idea what you are saying; other than it sounds like a character attack and a derail.

Do you believe that the creation account in Genesis is to be read literally?

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 08:23 PM
punk


Do you believe that the creation account in Genesis is to be read literally?The creation account should be understood from the hebrew that it was written in.

From that one can understand the events which occured there.

The earths transformation from a ball of waste, to a pristine paradise with beasts and man; occured over a 6 day period, as described in Genesis.

Not sure what you are shooting for.

punk
Apr 18th 2007, 08:25 PM
punk



The creation account should be understood from the hebrew that it was written in.

From that one can understand the events which occured there.

Ther earths transformation from a ball of waste to a pristine paradise with beasts and man occured over a 6 day period, as described in Genesis.

Not sure what you are shooting for.

I find your choice of which parts of the Bible to read literally and which to read figuratively to be conveniently ad hoc.

Do you believe the Bible should be read according to the plain meaning of the text?

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 08:36 PM
punk



Do you believe the Bible should be read according to the plain meaning of the text?
The text as it was written; that being was said in the hebrew and greek of the author.

From that we can learn the doctrine {central teaching} which is behind the text; thru study and comparation with other doctrines.

What brought on your "literally and figuratively " beef?

punk
Apr 18th 2007, 08:49 PM
punk

The text as it was written; that being was said in the hebrew and greek of the author.

From that we can learn the doctrine {central teaching} which is behind the text; thru study and comparation with other doctrines.

What brought on your "literally and figuratively " beef?

Because it seems to me that you read all the parts of the Bible which don't make any practical demands on your day-to-day life literally, but those parts which would make practical demands on your day-to-day life, and call you to action you read figuratively.

So, believing in a 6 day creation doesn't really change the way one lives on a day-to-day basis, and you choose to read the Bible literally there.

Whereas, having to help the poor and needy makes quite a demand on one's day-to-day life, and you manage to find the Bible to be figurative in those cases.

As I said, it all strikes me as conveniently ad hoc.

Walstib
Apr 18th 2007, 09:01 PM
In essence isnt what many christians do day; is what the jews did with the law of moses?

I do see your point and agree this is done. I would think Jesus was not gone 10 min before this started. I’m not sure it fits that verse, and I could be missing something, so I’ll move on.



This spirit or teaching that is behind the letters is ignored when people just focus on fussing over the letter.

When one is just fussing over the letters and not addressing the spirit behind the letters; then they are staggering like a spiritual drunk; line upon line; law upon law; here and there.

When some one posts a verse; part of the address is what was the spirit of thinking behind that verse; what is the mind of Christ in that verse trying to say.

Well… as confusing as it may be for me today, considering we are making the same end conclusions, I am not going to fuss anymore over how we got there. Maybe there is something to this that relates to the topic at hand….;)

Peace,

Joe

Centurionoflight
Apr 18th 2007, 09:21 PM
punk



Whereas, having to help the poor and needy makes quite a demand on one's day-to-day life, and you manage to find the Bible to be figurative in those cases.


My postion has consistantly been


1) That aiding the poor is not a means to spiritual growth.

2) It is not a command upon us of the church, rather it is to occur thru free will, as we are moved to do it.

3) It isnt a means to secure salvation; or in its neglect, a means to lose salvation.

4) Christ is not found in the dirty faces of the poor; rather he is thru his word and doctrine.

5) We are not to forsake our spiritual growth to go help the poor.

6) We are not to forsake providing for our own to going to help the poor.

7) Many of the poor today are there thru; being disorganized or being lazy; thus really not something we should fuss over.

8) We are not to run around and reforn satans world; which will pass, rather focus on the things that will not pass away, that being our spiritual life.

What you are doing is making aid to the poor a compusion; a command; which is not one we are givin.

Even Paul was not speaking as commandment to give to aid the poor of Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 8:8

I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 18th 2007, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Centurionoflight
In essence isnt what many christians do day; is what the jews did with the law of moses?This is so not correct. Legalism is a word for something grossly misunderstood, by those that feel the Law was abolished when Yeshua died.

For one, one must understand that Yeshua and His disciples all followed the Law of Moses, and Yeshua Himself said that :

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Now as to the word "fulfill", in order to get the proper context, one must also consider these verses:

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Now, this would be in direct conflict with this verse:

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Unless one realized, that the legal demands were not the Law contained in the Torah, but rather those that the Pharisees added to the torah as fence laws, and expected people to keep those as well, which is the burden of the yoke spoken of by Yeshua:

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

The laws of God are not impossible to fulfill if one tries their best with a contrite spirit. That's really all God ever expected, that we fully try to obey Him, and follow Him, and not our flesh....

What about this part of this previous verse though, you might say:

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Yeshua dying on the cross is not "all is accomplished" yet, while we have through him a way to the Father and a way to eternal life, we are not out of the woods yet, til we all have been eternally made new.

Now, in context of this we look at the command of feeding the poor, both OT and NT:

Psa 146:5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever;
Psa 146:7 who executes justice for the oppressed, who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free;

If God feeds the hungry, and we are to emulate Him, should we not also feed the hungry.

Remember what yeshua did when He fed the 5000..... isn't that example enough ?

But here we go:

Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my lambs."

You can take this in a spiritual manner as well as a physical, but recall what Yeshua said about this:

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: This was done with an actual cup and a real drink
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. IOW, we are to remember Yeshua, and follow His footsteps in doing so. It's about sharing the food and sharing the gospel....

Not to hijack the thread again, but i wanted to clarify


My postion has consistantly been
1) That aiding the poor is not a means to spiritual growth.In light of all that i have learned, and am learning even through you here, i would call that a very selfish position. And to tell you the truth, this hurts even me, cause i myself have done that....

jiggyfly
Apr 18th 2007, 11:28 PM
This is so not correct. Legalism is a word for something grossly misunderstood, by those that feel the Law was abolished when Yeshua died.

For one, one must understand that Yeshua and His disciples all followed the Law of Moses, and Yeshua Himself said that :

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Now as to the word "fulfill", in order to get the proper context, one must also consider these verses:

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Now, this would be in direct conflict with this verse:

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Unless one realized, that the legal demands were not the Law contained in the Torah, but rather those that the Pharisees added to the torah as fence laws, and expected people to keep those as well, which is the burden of the yoke spoken of by Yeshua:

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

The laws of God are not impossible to fulfill if one tries their best with a contrite spirit. That's really all God ever expected, that we fully try to obey Him, and follow Him, and not our flesh....

What about this part of this previous verse though, you might say:

Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Yeshua dying on the cross is not "all is accomplished" yet, while we have through him a way to the Father and a way to eternal life, we are not out of the woods yet, til we all have been eternally made new.

Now, in context of this we look at the command of feeding the poor, both OT and NT:

Psa 146:5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever;
Psa 146:7 who executes justice for the oppressed, who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free;

If God feeds the hungry, and we are to emulate Him, should we not also feed the hungry.

Remember what yeshua did when He fed the 5000..... isn't that example enough ?

But here we go:

Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my lambs."

You can take this in a spiritual manner as well as a physical, but recall what Yeshua said about this:

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: This was done with an actual cup and a real drink
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. IOW, we are to remember Yeshua, and follow His footsteps in doing so. It's about sharing the food and sharing the gospel....

Not to hijack the thread again, but i wanted to clarify

In light of all that i have learned, and am learning even through you here, i would call that a very selfish position. And to tell you the truth, this hurts even me, cause i myself have done that....

I see such a grave misunderstanding of the new covenant here. What do you think Jesus meant when He said in John 19:28-30.

John 19:28-30
28 Jesus knew that everything was now finished, and to fulfill the Scriptures he said, “I am thirsty.”* 29 A jar of sour wine was sitting there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put it on a hyssop branch, and held it up to his lips. 30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Look here at what Paul said in Philippians chapter 3.
Philippians 3:1-11
1 Whatever happens, dear brothers and sisters,* may the Lord give you joy. I never get tired of telling you this. I am doing this for your own good.
2 Watch out for those dogs, those wicked men and their evil deeds, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. 3 For we who worship God in the Spirit* are the only ones who are truly circumcised. We put no confidence in human effort. Instead, we boast about what Christ Jesus has done for us.
4 Yet I could have confidence in myself if anyone could. If others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more! 5 For I was circumcised when I was eight days old, having been born into a pure-blooded Jewish family that is a branch of the tribe of Benjamin. So I am a real Jew if there ever was one! What’s more, I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. 6 And zealous? Yes, in fact, I harshly persecuted the church. And I obeyed the Jewish law so carefully that I was never accused of any fault.
7 I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. 8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God’s law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith. 10 As a result, I can really know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I can learn what it means to suffer with him, sharing in his death, 11 so that, somehow, I can experience the resurrection from the dead!

punk
Apr 19th 2007, 12:00 AM
jiggyfly:

You are conflating two issues:

1. Whether good works can save a person
2. Whether we are instructed to do good works

We may be saved independently of any good works we do, but that is an entirely different question as to whether we are instructed to do good works.

I have argued elsewhere that good works are the fruit of salvation, and so any saved person should want to do good works for the sake of doing good works, and should feel sorrow at failing to do good works given the opportunity.

Of course an unsaved person can do good works without being saved.

On the other hand the failure to do good works and the lack of sorrow for such failing are an evil fruit, and indicative of an evil tree producing them.

Centurionoflight
Apr 19th 2007, 12:20 AM
Jesusinmyheart



The laws of God are not impossible to fulfill if one tries their best with a contrite spirit. That's really all God ever expected, that we fully try to obey Him, and follow Him, and not our flesh....


The law is impossible for us to follow.

God expects us to turn to him; not to the law.



Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Also;

We gentiles are not under the law; nor was it ever givin to us.
The jews of today; they also are not under the law.

For in Christ there is no jew or Gentile.

We are under a command to be filled with the spirit.
God is a spirit

Eph 5

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

These is not by following some checklist of the law.

Rather it is thru a function of not quenching the spirit; thru sin or evil mental attitude.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 - Quench not the Spirit.






Remember what yeshua did when He fed the 5000..... isn't that example enough ?


Remember, Those 5000 was following his and listening to his teaching.

They was not sitting around all poor thru bad choices and habits; expecting some one to get them some drinking money. And christians seeing it as some christian duty to provide that.

Centurionoflight
Apr 19th 2007, 12:37 AM
punk



I have argued elsewhere that good works are the fruit of salvation, and so any saved person should want to do good works for the sake of doing good works, and should feel sorrow at failing to do good works given the opportunity.

Of course an unsaved person can do good works without being saved.

On the other hand the failure to do good works and the lack of sorrow for such failing are an evil fruit, and indicative of an evil tree producing them.


The tree in the garden was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL;

Both are repulsive to God.

We are to be perfect as God is perfect; this is only done thru the spirit; thru chinging our thinking to the thinking of Christ.


Matthew 5:48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is not done thru some good crusade to feed the homeless, some cause of human good.

Paul called that type of thinking foolish.


Galatians 3:3 - Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Yet that type of thinking is main stream in many christian circles.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2007, 01:07 AM
The law is impossible for us to follow. 1)

God expects us to turn to him; not to the law.2)

1) Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

2) Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
Act 3:20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
Act 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.


Remember, Those 5000 was following his and listening to his teaching.

They was not sitting around all poor thru bad choices and habits; expecting some one to get them some drinking money. And christians seeing it as some christian duty to provide that.

Yes, he fed them physically and spiritually

Scruffy Kid
Apr 19th 2007, 01:55 AM
These is not by following some checklist of the law. ...

Remember, Those 5000 ... was not sitting around all poor thru bad choices and habits; expecting some one to get them some drinking money. And christians seeing it as some christian duty to provide that.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


[Luke 18:9-14] He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.


:cry: ... :cry: ... :cry: ... :cry: ... :cry: ... :cry: ... :cry:

[Mark 1:14-15] Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

John the Baptist [Luke 3:7-11] ... said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bear fruits that befit repentance ... every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

And the multitudes asked him, "What then shall we do?"

And he answered them, "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."


Jesus said: [Luke 12:29-34] Do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink ... for all the nations of the world seek these things; and your Father knows that you need them.
Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things shall be yours as well. ...

Sell your possessions, and give to the needy

Provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. For this, You shalt not commit adultery, you shalt not kill, you shalt not steal, you shalt not bear false witness, you shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, You shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jam 2:8If you fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, you shalt love your neighbour as yourself, you do well

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2007, 02:47 AM
John 19:28-30
28 Jesus knew that everything was now finished, and to fulfill the Scriptures he said, “I am thirsty.”* 29 A jar of sour wine was sitting there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put it on a hyssop branch, and held it up to his lips. 30 When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

It is finished:

G5055

τελέω
teléō; contracted telṓ, fut. telésō, from télos (G5056), end, goal. To make an end or to accomplish, to complete something, not merely to end it, but to bring it to perfection or its destined goal, to carry it through.

IOW the work of salvation was finished, yes, i agree, but there's still work to be done, don't you think ?

Gathering of the elect, judgment, etc.....

Centurionoflight
Apr 19th 2007, 05:33 PM
Jesusinmyheart



Yes, he fed them physically and spiritually
And they was following him.

Christ didnt go to the nearest town; yank some guy out of a dumpster; hand him a fish and say "Lord bless you".

They followed him.

Which goes to show; if we follow Christ he will provide our needs of the spirit and of the body.

If not; we are on our own.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2007, 06:00 PM
COL,

as much as Yeshua travelled, you don't think He went to where He knew he was realle needed ? He made Himself acessible to those in need of salvation.

He comes to you first, or do you really think it's the other way around ?

Mat 20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.

Mat 20:3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

The example you're giving is after they learned from Yeshua they followed him, that's after Yeshua first came to them and reached out.

After Yeshua's works of miracles became evident, then yes, they started coming to Him.....but it follwed His reaching out first.

The only people that came to Yeshua in the beginning of His ministry were those that recognized Him for who He was.

Centurionoflight
Apr 19th 2007, 06:08 PM
Some how this got off doctrine and onto the charity causes.

We can discuss the down drodden in this thread:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=83119&page=7

Now to reel that back in to a doctrinal focus.

There is a thinking of man and a thinking of God.


Isa 55

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.



Doctrine is the way to have the thinking of Christ.
I dont see this type of higher thinking in the verse by verse discussions.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 19th 2007, 07:40 PM
Well verse by verse discussion is IMO ok, as long as it is supported by other scriptures.. remember the saying scripture must support scripture ?
It's all interwoven like a huge beautiful tapestry, and every word and sentence points to another thread in that tapestry.

Once you get into that line of thinking you get to thinking in God's higher ways...

Walstib
Apr 20th 2007, 07:03 PM
Centurionoflight,

Maybe a better definition of what you think a doctrine is would help me understand what you are saying better.

Example;

Is having all things proved by two or three witnesses a doctrine under you definition?

Or, what doctrine would this be contained in if it is not?

Thanks,

Joe

awestruckchild
Apr 22nd 2007, 04:58 PM
I liked the way this thread started with centurionoflight wondering about a ....completeness, a fitting together, the main points.
I can't for the life of me figure out why Taddy felt attacked by what you said, but it is obvious he felt that way.
I struggle sometimes against my......flesh? mind? , which wants complete understanding and gets lost in doctrine to the exclusion of the Words in red. There is a simplicity and a depth to these Words that far exceeds everything else. It sounds strange even to my ears to use simplicity and depth to describe them at the same time, but it is somehow true and amazing.
There are so many examples the Spirit will guide you to regarding the wisdom of the world and how it is in direct opposition to these Words.
Jesus didn't have much kind to say about the religious leaders of His day and not so much has changed over the centuries. He continually spoke to how they missed the large picture by focusing on straining out the 'gnats'.
I think there is a thread that pulls everything together in a simplistic way and I think we stop focusing on His Words and become ensnared in straining out these 'gnats'.
We become blinded to the fact that we follow tradition and ignore the most important teachings. For example, we build churches to gather together in to worship our Father, but then we engrave our names in plaques which we then affix to the pews and stained glass windows in those churches to honor each other for our donations. This has been going on for so long that we don't see we are praising and giving honor to one another instead of to God....in what we call His house.
We begin to not truly see and believe these precious Words.
Another example is in the area of not judging others. When they brought the adulteress before Jesus, He told them to cast the first stone if they were without sin. Note He didn't say if they were without sexual sin, but without any sin. But even if we just focus on sexual sin, He gave us the standard for sexual sin when He said that even a thought of another was sin. I believe this condemns 100% of us of sexual sin.
What I believe He was pointing out to them was that just because their sexual sin was hidden safely away in their minds and the womans sin was out of the closet and in the open did not give them the right to judge. I believe they left one by one from the oldest to the youngest because they understood His true meaning and were ashamed of themselves for their hypocrisy.
We know we will be judged in the exact same measure in which we judge another and if we take these Words to heart, we will not pound on the pulpit about homosexuality, knowing in our hearts that sexual sin is sexual sin is sexual sin and we are all guilty of it.
Another example of not taking His words to heart is when we set up a rating system for sin and declare that Dahmer or anyone else deserves the death penalty for murdering another. Once again, He gave us the standard when He said that anger or hate in our heart toward another was murder. As hard as it is for us to accept sometimes, when we utter those condemning words, we are condemning ourselves because we are murderers too according to Him.
Please don't get me wrong and think I am saying we aren't to protect ourselves from people we run across who want to cook and eat us. Putting someone in jail until the day they die for this is not judging them in the manner He spoke of, it is protecting ourselves.
This became very long winded and my conclusion is that the theme running throughout is trust in the Words, believe that they are true, lean on them and percieve the importance of pondering them and talking to Him about them and our questions about them, and truly truly taking them to heart, ingesting them.
I praise God and give all glory and honor to Him for the wonderful and wise Spirit He has given us to guide us and reveal these wisdoms to us.Please believe me when I say, I ain't not smart enuf to figure this out on my own and that it wasn't my brain power or reasoning that showed me these things - it was the Spirit.

Centurionoflight
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:00 PM
Walstib



Maybe a better definition of what you think a doctrine is would help me understand what you are saying better.


The teaching behind the verses; that we can apply to our lives.



Is having all things proved by two or three witnesses a doctrine under you definition?


It is proved by the spirit, thru other biblical doctrine found in scripture.

Witnesses of men; create legalism and false teachings.



Or, what doctrine would this be contained in if it is not?


Not sure what you are asking.

Thru scripture we have the thinking of Christ; we must study this thinking and learn to think in same manner.

This is part of renewing our minds.

Romans 12:2

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Centurionoflight
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:11 PM
paintdiva



I liked the way this thread started with centurionoflight wondering about a ....completeness, a fitting together, the main points.


Correct;

I believe there is a completeness of knowledge of thethings of God thru doctrine.

At times people get so hung up on proving their dogma; they miss the whole picture.



I struggle sometimes against my......flesh? mind? , which wants complete understanding and gets lost in doctrine to the exclusion of the Words in red. There is a simplicity and a depth to these Words that far exceeds everything else. It sounds strange even to my ears to use simplicity and depth to describe them at the same time, but it is somehow true and amazing.
There are so many examples the Spirit will guide you to regarding the wisdom of the world and how it is in direct opposition to these Words.


Gods ways and THINKING is not mans;
When man uses mans wisdom to try to understand God; we get legalism.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Only thru doctrine can we see Gods ways; it must be seen thru the spiritual IQ rather than our human IQ.

The smartest man usings his human brain but low spiritual IQ will miss Gods thinking;

A simple man who can have no human smarts but a high spiritual IQ can understand the wonders of God.

This is about how have they thru study of Doctrine changed to that thinking.



Jesus didn't have much kind to say about the religious leaders of His day and not so much has changed over the centuries. He continually spoke to how they missed the large picture by focusing on straining out the 'gnats'.
I think there is a thread that pulls everything together in a simplistic way and I think we stop focusing on His Words and become ensnared in straining out these 'gnats'.
We become blinded to the fact that we follow tradition and ignore the most important teachings. For example, we build churches to gather together in to worship our Father, but then we engrave our names in plaques which we then affix to the pews and stained glass windows in those churches to honor each other for our donations. This has been going on for so long that we don't see we are praising and giving honor to one another instead of to God....in what we call His house.


Legalism is mans thinking, man righteousness;
This is repulsive to God.

Isa 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:14 PM
It is proved by the spirit, thru other biblical doctrine found in scripture.What other doctrine... i thought there was only one doctrine of God ?



Thru scripture we have the thinking of Christ; we must study this thinking and learn to think in same manner.In order to understand His thinking, it would behoove us to know how he grew up and what He/people were accustomed to doing in His time.
It's equally important to know what He did and how He did it and why, in order to understand scripture correctly.

Centurionoflight
Apr 23rd 2007, 06:37 PM
Jesusinmyheart



What other doctrine... i thought there was only one doctrine of God ?
There is many doctrines {Teaching points} in scripture; they are all of God.




In order to understand His thinking, it would behoove us to know how he grew up and what He/people were accustomed to doing in His time.
It's equally important to know what He did and how He did it and why, in order to understand scripture correctly.
Are you addressing the need for some books of the apocryphia? {One of the books gives some myths on his childhood.}
Umm no.
Doctrine in and of it self is quite able to be understood without adding conflicting doctrines and legalism to it.

Or


Are you saying we need to look to the Greek and Hebrew language and events of that time?
From that we can understand some of the doctrine thru how things was addressed.

This I can agree with.

We are quite able to mature to spiritual adulthood thru the doctrines taught in scripture.

Jesusinmyheart
Apr 23rd 2007, 11:39 PM
Are you saying we need to look to the Greek and Hebrew language and events of that time?
From that we can understand some of the doctrine thru how things was addressed.

This I can agree with.

The latter............

Centurionoflight
Apr 24th 2007, 12:31 AM
Jesusinmyheart

The latter............

cool.

awestruckchild
Aug 6th 2007, 03:00 PM
punk



My postion has consistantly been


1) That aiding the poor is not a means to spiritual growth.



2) It is not a command upon us of the church, rather it is to occur thru free will, as we are moved to do it.



3) It isnt a means to secure salvation; or in its neglect, a means to lose salvation.



4) Christ is not found in the dirty faces of the poor; rather he is thru his word and doctrine.



5) We are not to forsake our spiritual growth to go help the poor.



6) We are not to forsake providing for our own to going to help the poor.



7) Many of the poor today are there thru; being disorganized or being lazy; thus really not something we should fuss over.



8) We are not to run around and reforn satans world; which will pass, rather focus on the things that will not pass away, that being our spiritual life.

What you are doing is making aid to the poor a compusion; a command; which is not one we are givin.

Even Paul was not speaking as commandment to give to aid the poor of Jerusalem.


2 Corinthians 8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.


He said He got no pleasure in sacrifices and blood and fat but this was the sacrifice He wanted : to feed the poor, clothe the widow, etc.

He also said that in the end, He will say to some, that He never knew them, that when He was hungry, they didn't feed Him and when He was thirsty, they didn't give Him a drink. And He foretold that they would say, Huh???? When did we see You hungry and not feed you???
When you saw someone poor and without food or drink and you didn't help,...............that's when!
And you say they are poor because of laziness, but I say they are poor so that He could do good works through us and be glorified and praised.
You say we aren't supposed to give them much thought but I say it is His desire that we do give them much thought.
You say we aren't to help the needy to the detriment of our spiritual growth, but I say that if we don't help them, it is to the detriment of our spiritual growth.
This is the sacrifice He desires: mercy and compassion. And if we don't give it, we will receive none.
Your #4 statement in particular causes me to marvel, that Christ is not found in the dirty faces of the poor. I don't even know what to say................I don't understand you.....He specifically said if we don't feed them, we don't feed Him.
I am dumbfounded.

jeffcraig
Mar 9th 2017, 10:38 PM
Is there a single stream of thinking that can be learned from scripture?

One that formulates whole ideas; that we can learn and appy to our life.

I lean to that there are whole teachings we can learn and test with scripture;

We are told to abide in a "doctrine"

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
It doesnt say abide in this view of this verse or that view of that verse.


I found of a course of time; that every discussion on the bible went into this line or that line;

They ignored the knowledge or doctrine.

They was a fruitless discussion, no focus on understanding.
No focus on truth; just on who could be right.


To go upon this verse or that verse; ignoring the over all doctrine is compared in scripture as the act of a drunken teacher.


Isaiah 28
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
{What of a focus on the knowledge or as I call it the doctrine}
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
{The mind filled with liquor{human view point} thinks like this.}

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

And Again this is stated.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
With a warning that this type of thinking leads to RUIN!


I think there is a call upon us to think beyond this line or that line; and take a focus on the total doctrine or teaching thatis occuring.

This is well with in the call and realm of proper bible study.

Think "immerse" as in be always, daily, forever, seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM and remaining always , continually, immersed in Y'SHUA MESSIAH.

Every thought, every dream, every muscle, every imagination, every desire, every hope, every joy, peace beyond comparison, righteousness , wisdom (YHWH'S) , knowledge (YHWH'S), SHALOM (YHWH'S GIFT - Y'SHUA, SALVATION) .....

all in all, towards being perfectly content with GODLINESS, abiding IN HIM, every bit, all the time, without spot or wrinkle !

justbyfaith
Mar 10th 2017, 07:58 PM
Is there a single stream of thinking that can be learned from scripture?

One that formulates whole ideas; that we can learn and appy to our life.

I lean to that there are whole teachings we can learn and test with scripture;

We are told to abide in a "doctrine"

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

It doesnt say abide in this view of this verse or that view of that verse.


I found of a course of time; that every discussion on the bible went into this line or that line;

They ignored the knowledge or doctrine.

They was a fruitless discussion, no focus on understanding.
No focus on truth; just on who could be right.


To go upon this verse or that verse; ignoring the over all doctrine is compared in scripture as the act of a drunken teacher.


Isaiah 28
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

{What of a focus on the knowledge or as I call it the doctrine}
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

{The mind filled with liquor{human view point} thinks like this.}
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


And Again this is stated.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

With a warning that this type of thinking leads to RUIN!


I think there is a call upon us to think beyond this line or that line; and take a focus on the total doctrine or teaching thatis occuring.

This is well with in the call and realm of proper bible study.

I believe that our learning of the word of God line upon line and precept upon precept simply cannot be avoided if students and teacher are going to have any kind of dialogue as is commanded in Galatians 6:6.

But both student and teacher ought to have a regular practice of reading through Bible books in order to get everything in its original context. I believe that Isaiah 28:13 is an exhortation to have a fluent understanding of the scriptures in their immediate context; understanding each Bible book as a book and not taking a scripture here and a scripture there and developig doctrine out of it without understanding the original context.

While we find, in 1 Corintihans 2:13, that the Holy Ghost has a specific method of teaching us, when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual.

So is the Holy Ghost's method of teaching so that we may fall and go backward?

I think that the key verse to understanding this is found in Isaiah 28:16---Jesus is a precious corner stone and a sure foundation. If we don't have Him, then line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept teaching will cause us to fall and go backward. But if we do have Him, we need not fear this. An added safeguard, as I have said, might be to make sure you understand your Bible as whole books and understand every scripture in its original context...which would imply that you read through your Bible from beginning to end in every book that you read in the Bible.