I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J

Hi, there are specific Scripture portions that refer to Jesus as God.

E.g.

Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us."

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one!" (indirectly)

Titus 2:10-13 "not stealing, but showing all good faith, so that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. (11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (12) teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world, (13) looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Pet 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,"

etc.

I hope the following will help you defend against the heretical doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. RW

The Doctrine of the Trinity

by Walter Martin


An article from the From The Founder column of the Christian Research Newsletter, Volume 6: Number 2, 1993.
The Editor of the Christian Research Newsletter is Ron Rhodes.


The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that within the unity of the one Godhead there are three separate persons who are coequal in power, nature, and eternity. This doctrine is derived from the clear teaching of Scripture, and is not a man-made doctrine as some (such as the Jehovah's Witnesses) have claimed. Let us briefly examine some of the New Testament evidences for this important doctrine.
1. The Incarnation. The birth of the Lord Jesus Christ as described in the accounts in Matthew and Luke show that the doctrine of the Trinity was not a later invention of theologians. Luke records what an angel said to Mary: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).
Since other passages of Scripture reveal that the term "Most High" refers to God the Father, we have in Luke a concrete instance of the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son all being mentioned together in the supernatural event of the Incarnation.

2. The Baptism of Our Lord. When Jesus Christ was baptized, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit "descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: 'You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased'" (Luke 3:21-22). In these verses we see the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending upon Him, and the Father bearing testimony.

3. Discourses of Christ. In John 14--16 Christ speaks of the persons of the Trinity in His Upper Room Discourse. Jesus declared to the disciples, "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17). Our Lord here prays to the Father for the Spirit, and His emphasis on triunity is quite apparent. In John 14:26 and 15:26 Christ uses the same formula, mentioning the three persons of the Deity and indicating their unity, not only of purpose and will but of basic nature.

4. Paul's Letters. The apostle Paul definitely taught the triune nature of God. He wrote: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). It would have been difficult for Paul to give this benediction if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were not equal persons within the Godhead.

5. The Great Commission. In Matthew 28:18-20 the Lord Jesus commissions the disciples to go out and preach the gospel and to make disciples of all nations. He commands them also to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Taken with the other passages bearing on the subject, this becomes an extremely powerful argument for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

6. Creation. Although the Bible does not explain to us how the three persons are the one God, it tells us most emphatically that the Spirit of God created the world (Gen. 1:2), the Father created the world (Heb. 1:2), and the Son created the world (Col. 1:16). If you check the creation references in the New Testament, you will see that these particular references are bolstered by several others teaching the same things.

The apostle Paul declared in Acts 17:24, "the God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands." This forces us to an irresistible conclusion. As creation has been attributed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit singly and collectively, they are the one God. There cannot be three gods. The Scripture declares: "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other" (Isa. 45:22). Hence there is unity in trinity and trinity in unity.

7. The Resurrection of Christ. A final instance of Trinitarian emphasis is that of the resurrection of our Lord. In John 2 Christ declared to the Jews, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days" (v. 19). John hastens to tell us that Jesus was speaking of the resurrection of His earthly body (v. 21). Other Scriptures, however, state that Christ was raised by the agency of the Holy Spirit (e.g., Rom. 8:11). And Peter explicitly states that the Father raised the Son (Acts 3:26). So, again, God's Word affirms the triune nature of God.
We may not fully understand the great truth of the Trinity. However, we can see the rays of light which emanate from God's Word and which teach us that, in a mysterious sense beyond the comprehension of man's finite mind, God is one in nature but three in person.

This article was adapted from Dr. Martin's book, Essential Christianity. It may be ordered from CRI for $7.00.



End of document, CRN0063A.TXT (original CRI file name), "The Doctrine of the Trinity" release A, July 15, 1994 R. Poll, CRI A special note of thanks to Bob and Pat Hunter for their help in the preparation of this ASCII file for BBS circulation.

Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute.
COPYRIGHT/REPRODUCTION LIMITATIONS:
This data file is the sole property of the Christian Research Institute. It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data file must contain the copyright notice (i.e., "Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute"). This data file may not be used without the permission of the Christian Research Institute for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold. This includes all of its content with the exception of a few brief quotations not to exceed more than 500 words. If you desire to reproduce less than 500 words of this data file for resale or the enhancement of any other product for resale, please give the following source credit: Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688-7000.

Here is a link to another good article defending the FACT that Jesus is God! RW

http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/jesusgod.html

I struggle with this as well. The bible seems to contradict itself.

Here is a link to a really good website that explains what JW is about, how their belief contradicts the bible, and verses that support this (there is also info on other different religions and cults):
http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

I've found it to be a reliable site and the info they provide is pretty extensive. Hope this helps.

I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J

The first ecumenical councils of the Church addressed this thoroughly to refute heresy on the subject and define the beliefs of the Church. Anyone disputing the Trinity would have to address those councils to even be worth hearing IMHO.

Here is the "Wiki" on it.

Orthodox Christians worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—the Holy Trinity, the one God. Following the Holy Scriptures and the Church Fathers, the Church believes that the Trinity is three divine persons (hypostases) who share one essence (ousia). It is paradoxical to believe thus, but that is how God has revealed himself. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence (homoousios) and coeternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.

God is not an impersonal essence or mere "higher power," but rather each of the divine persons relates to mankind personally. Neither is God a simple name for three gods (i.e., polytheism), but rather the Orthodox faith is monotheist and yet Trinitarian. The God of the Orthodox Christian Church is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the I AM who revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush.

The source and unity of the Holy Trinity is the Father, from whom the Son is begotten and also from whom the Spirit proceeds. Thus, the Father is both the ground of unity of the Trinity and also of distinction. To try to comprehend unbegottenness (Father), begottenness (Son), or procession (Holy Spirit) leads to insanity, says the holy Gregory the Theologian, and so the Church approaches God in divine mystery, approaching God apophatically, being content to encounter God personally and yet realize the inadequacy of the human mind to comprehend Him.

The primary statement of what the Church believes about God is to be found in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Trinity


And the Nicene Creed of the Church.


Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed

Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (also called the Nicene Creed, the Symbol of Faith, the Pistevo, or simply the Creed) is that creed formulated at the First and Second Ecumenical Councils. It was defined by the Holy Fathers of those first two councils (held in Nicea and Constantinople, respectively) to combat various heresies notably Arianism, Apollinarianism, Macedonianism (also called Pneumatomachianism), and Chiliasm.

Some scholars believe that the Creed promulgated by the First Ecumenical Council was based on an earlier baptismal creed used in Palestine, while others regard its more likely origin as being a creed issued early in 325 A.D. in Antioch, a so-called "Syrian Creed."

The Creed as it now stands was formed in two stages, and the one in use today in the Orthodox Church reflects the revisions and additions made at the Second Ecumenical Council. Some centuries later, the Roman Catholic Church attempted a unilateral revision of the Creed by the addition of the Filioque, thus being one of the causes of the Great Schism between Rome and the rest of the Church.

The Coptic church has a tradition that the Nicene Creed was authored by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, whose theology was instrumental at the Nicene council, despite his being only a deacon at the time.

__________

The Creed of Nicea (325 A.D.)

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the essence of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down and became incarnate, becoming man, suffered and rose again on the third day, ascended to the heavens, and will come again to judge the living and the dead;

And in the Holy Spirit.

___________________

The Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 A.D.)

In English:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets;

And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness
I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree.


The JW's have their own reworded translation of the Bible which is known as the New World Translation. On the other hand I am assuming you use a reliable and trustworthy translation such as the KJV, NKJV, NIV, or even better the NASB.
Since you have said you don't know Scripture well enough to argue with this JW, then it's probably wise to not get into deep discussions with Him about theology. Leave the arguing to those who know Scripture better, and know JW doctrine. Don't let this JW deceive you. JW's have a lot of false teachings.

Lastly keep in mind what Jesus said:
John 14:9 Jesus said to Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Well I use both NIV and The Message and go back and forth between the two for understanding when I’m struggling with something.

Anyway, thank you for all the replies. I will be reading the links and whatnot….

Just the fact that you are asking tells me you have some doubt as to the validity of this. The least you are questioning to get the truth.

I say study for yourself, and learn what scripture says about Him. This is an example opf listening to man's doctrine, and where that could possibly lead.

Pray God to open your eyes to the truth, and He will give it to you.

I agree you will want to limit discussions with the JW's just based on the fact that it may not yet be easy to discern for you, what scripture really says, or what they have come up with.

Well I use both NIV and The Message and go back and forth between the two for understanding when I’m struggling with something.

Anyway, thank you for all the replies. I will be reading the links and whatnot….

OK, but rememebr "The Message" is only a paraphrase, and not a trustworthy translation. In other words when what you read in The Message disagrees with what you read in the NIV, then always side with the NIV wording rather than wording of The Message.

Just the fact that you are asking tells me you have some doubt as to the validity of this. The least you are questioning to get the truth.


Well like I said, I’m new to really reading and trying to learn and understand the word of God.

So this is kind of the first time I have really tackled the question but it’s such a huge thing that I really wanted to know the truth.

I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J

BSC,

What your JW friend is telling you does have some truth to it, though not completely.

Basically it comes from a lack of understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity which DOES affirm that "Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God (the Father) and he is referred to as the Son of God (the Father)…not necessarily God(the Father) Himself".

The doctrine of the Trinity completely agrees with the above affirming that The Father and the Son are 2 distinct persons. There is no question about it.
Most JWs are not aware of this.

Where the JWs go wrong is they then affirm arianism, which is the denial of Christ's deity. They confess Him as a created being and not as eternal God when they state things such as "when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness" and such.

The doctrine of the Trinity affirms that while the Father and the Son are distinct persons they are one in essence. The Son, as much as the Father, is eternal and not created. As Teke very correctly points out the early Church addressed this very doctrine, arianism, and it has forever in the orthodox Church been found to be heretical.

As she pointed out the Nicene creed addressed this very issue:



We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;

he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;

from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The above creed shows the consensus of the early Church regarding the deity of Christ.

The easiest way I have found to prove the deity of Christ though is from the scriptures. Observe:

Jesus was worshipped over a dozen times in the book of Matthew and NEVER rebuked a single person for doing so. Here is a link to those verses:
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=worship&startnumber=&resultspp=25&searchtype=all&spanbegin=47&spanend=47&limit=span&displayas=long&sort=bookorder&version=9;

Jesus was paraphrasing Deuteronomy 6:13 when He told Satan "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Deuteronomy 6:13 - "Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name."

If only God can be worshipped according the Law then Jesus would have been sinning by not rebuking those who worshipped Him, if He were not God.
Notice that both Peter (Acts 10:25-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010:25-26;&version=50;)) and the angel in Revelation (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:10;&version=50;) both rebuke those who try to worship them and reiterate that only God is to be worshipped.

You might also want to study some of these links:
Trinity
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinitylook.htm
http://www.carm.org/misc/plurality.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityquotes.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinityplural.htm

Christ's deity
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/properties.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisgod.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusisaman.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/isJesusGod.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jehovah_is_Jesus.htm
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J


It helps to understand that once the body of Christ was prepared for God to dwell in, that it is now holy also, and that is why He/Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. His body will never be destroyed. It is God's "physical" person.
And it helps to remember that Jesus IS "fully MAN, and fully GOD". The fully man is probably the Person saying the Father is greater than me. But Jesus also said, "Before Abraham was, I am", the same "I am" from Exodus.;)
And also, Jesus is the Son of Man/Adam, who is the son of God, if you check out the geneology of Jesus in LUke, I think you will find that. And He was the Son of God, in that God made Mary's body become pregnant.

And God in the OT calls Himself their Saviour, and God and beside HIm He knows of no other. Check out the prophets, I think that is where you will find it.
Oh, and JW's believe that Jesus is "a" god. A lesser god, you have to show them first that there is only ONE God, using the OT is good for that. And if I am not mistaken, Zecheriah 12:10 is a good example for them, since it is God who is speaking through a prophet about Himself.;)



God be with you!

One thing that helped me a ton on this subject is Gen 18. It is when God visits Abraham and Sarah. Back and forth the Lord is refferred to as God, and as the three men. Abraham has Sarah prepare three meals. This made me think. It didn't confuse Abraham, so why should it me. I believe the Bible and every word in it so I just accept the trinity. I don't claim to understand it, but I know in my heart it's true. I know secularly minded people would tear me to pieces on thinking like that but so be it. God is God and God is Jesus. They are seperate and they are the same. Luckily for me there is no quiz at the end or I'd be in trouble. God Bless

Pat

For me personally, the doctrine of the Trinity is a mere attempt to explain God. The statement "Three Persons in One Being" is a humanly understandable expression that tries to explain the being of God. The terms "Person" and "being" is human, inadequate words that try to explain a spiritual, metaphysical reality. I don't think that the doctrine of the Trinity is meant to box God into a human scheme.

The way I tend to think about the Trinity is alongside certain constraints. Here are some constraints:

1) The Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son (Jesus Christ) is God.
2) God is One (Being).
3) The Father is not Jesus or the Spirit
4) Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit
5) The Spirit is not the Father or Jesus
6) Yet they are in perfect unity.
7) The fullness of God is not limited to the Father only, the Son only or the Spirit only.

Although these constraints tend to be difficult to balance (in human terms), I think one must be aware of the fact that God cannot be boxed into a human scheme. God is God. And there will always be a bit of mystery to His character / being - at least in terms of what we can understand of Him now.

For me, the key is in this Scripture:

1 Cor 2:11-16 "For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. (13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. (16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

In other words...

We cannot fully know the character / being of God in terms of the natural mind (reason: natural dimension), but we can fully know Him in a spiritual (metaphysical) dimension. That's why faith in God is not a type of mathematical sum of the natural mind. The Spirit of God has to enlighten / renew the human spirit and mind in order to know God.

That does not mean that reason is not important, but it does mean that human reason ought to be subjected to the Spirit / spirit (Spirit priority), and not the other way round (reason priority). The reason is helpful only if it is under the control of the Spirit. That's why we cannot convict non-believers (we can only witness to them), only God can.

Reason without the Spirit, without acknowledging the spiritual (metaphysical dimension) will inevitably lead to atheism/naturalism/humanism.

...me finks!

I struggle with this as well. The bible seems to contradict itself.

In Genesis 1:1, it says, "....God created the heavens and the earth..." The word GOD is PLURAL (Elohim), so in effect the verse could read, "....Gods created the heavens and the earth..."

God is a Trinity, made up of three co-equal persons which are referred to as the Godhead. God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus stepped out of eternity and into time 2000 yrs ago to take on a human body, to be the acceptable perfect sacrifice for our sins. When Jesus prayed to God in the Garden, He was at the time confined to a human body, but no less God, therefore He suffered as a human.

Phillipans 2:5-8 says, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Steer clear of your Jehovah's Witness friend. He may be sincere, but he is sincerely wrong. Jesus said in John 8:24, " Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

Jesus is referring to Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

Jesus is the 'I AM' of Exodus 3:14, God Himself.

For me personally, the doctrine of the Trinity is a mere attempt to explain God. The statement "Three Persons in One Being" is a humanly understandable expression that tries to explain the being of God.

Actually, the scripture is that very thing. It is the explaining of the being of God in humanly understandable expressions. Father and Son are human expressions for a human understanding of God.

Just for clarification.


The terms "Person" and "being" is human, inadequate words that try to explain a spiritual, metaphysical reality.

The terms Father and Son and descriptions of God having wings, feet, hands, etc. are also human words and descriptions that explain a spiritual reality.

I see no difference here.


I don't think that the doctrine of the Trinity is meant to box God into a human scheme.

The doctrine of the Trinity is drawn from the scripture and is what God has chosen to reveal about Himself through words that we can understand. There is still a mystery to the Trinity even though we accept the doctrine of scripture.


The way I tend to think about the Trinity is alongside certain constraints. Here are some constraints:

1) The Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son (Jesus Christ) is God.
2) God is One (Being).
3) The Father is not Jesus or the Spirit
4) Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit
5) The Spirit is not the Father or Jesus
6) Yet they are in perfect unity.
7) The fullness of God is not limited to the Father only, the Son only or the Spirit only.

But aren't the above merely human terms that are used to explain a spiritual reality?


Although these constraints tend to be difficult to balance (in human terms), I think one must be aware of the fact that God cannot be boxed into a human scheme. God is God. And there will always be a bit of mystery to His character / being - at least in terms of what we can understand of Him now.

The doctrine of the Trinity completely agrees with the above. I have never heard anyone say "I understand the Trinity in fullness" but most admit that it is a mystery how God can be 1 being revealed in 3 persons. It does not make human, logical sense because there is nothing else in the universe like God. Nothing we can point at and say "See, it's like that".


For me, the key is in this Scripture:

1 Cor 2:11-16 "For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (12) But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. (13) These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one. (16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

In other words...

We cannot fully know the character / being of God in terms of the natural mind (reason: natural dimension), but we can fully know Him in a spiritual (metaphysical) dimension. That's why faith in God is not a type of mathematical sum of the natural mind. The Spirit of God has to enlighten / renew the human spirit and mind in order to know God.

That does not mean that reason is not important, but it does mean that human reason ought to be subjected to the Spirit / spirit (Spirit priority), and not the other way round (reason priority). The reason is helpful only if it is under the control of the Spirit. That's why we cannot convict non-believers (we can only witness to them), only God can.

Reason without the Spirit, without acknowledging the spiritual (metaphysical dimension) will inevitably lead to atheism/naturalism/humanism.

...me finks!

There is no reason to conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity is somehow human reason alone without spiritual discernment and wisdom. The doctrine of the Trinity comes first and foremost from scripture and is spiritually given to the Church and reason must bow the knee to revelation. The doctrine of the Trinity is NOT humanly reasonable or logical, it is a spiritual revelation given through scripture and the Holy Spirit.

I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J

Here's a great way to see if your Jehovah's Witness friend is honest:

Tell him to open his bible (he has a NWT version) to Matthew 3:1-3. Then open your bible to the same verse and place it on top of his. Then have him read aloud from your bible (I'm using NKJV):

"In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:
“ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘ Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.’”

Then ask him who this verse is speaking about. He will undoubtedly say Jesus, of course!

Now take your bible off of his, and have him read the same verses from his version:

" In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de´a, saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”

His bible says John the Baptist was preparing the way for JEHOVAH (GOD). When he read your version, he said John the Baptist was preparing the way for JESUS, so that must mean that JESUS IS GOD.

Let me know how it goes.

Hi, there are specific Scripture portions that refer to Jesus as God.

E.g.

Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us."

Joh 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one!" (indirectly)

Titus 2:10-13 "not stealing, but showing all good faith, so that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. (11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (12) teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world, (13) looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"

2 Pet 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,"

etc.


I’ve heard these as well. But here is the dilemma I am presented with when I try and interpret them. In Hebrew culture, when a firstborn (or only) son was sent on a mission (which Christ was) the son had all of the authority of the father in representing him. He was, for all intents and purposes, the father in the matter at hand.

“You want the father? You’re lookin’ at him.” This could just as easily been what Christ meant. He did say, after all, “no man comes to the Father but by me.” So we have a bit of a contradiction if we are to apply the same interpretations to His other statements which would appear to set Him us as an individual separate (in form anyway) from the Father.

Never been able to solve that one apart from speculation and wishful thinking. I’m still up in the air about how close God wants us to make the two aside from Christ’s undeniable authority and complete divinity.

There is no reason to conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity is somehow human reason alone without spiritual discernment and wisdom. The doctrine of the Trinity comes first and foremost from scripture and is spiritually given to the Church and reason must bow the knee to revelation. The doctrine of the Trinity is NOT humanly reasonable or logical, it is a spiritual revelation given through scripture and the Holy Spirit.

Toolman,

Thanks for your comments. I would not say that the trinity as such is a human-made scheme (that is not what you implied about my view - it is just to clarify my own understanding), and you are right that all human words / symbols that represent God is inadequate / incomplete. I would like to distinguish between the reality of the trinity and the doctrine of the trinity. The doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to explain the reality of the trinity. I would say all doctrine has a human, imperfect element. That's why doctrine is always revisited and refined by the church. Yet I will not say that all doctrines are merely human. I agree that God lead the church to formulate humanly understandable systems - nothing wrong with that. All that I say is that the words, symbols, comparisons we use to describe God's trinity (that any doctrine consists of) is incomplete, also the "constraints" that I have mentioned ;). What I would say is that Scripture is no doctrine in itself apart from the working of the Spirit. Scripture, read apart from the enlightenment of the Spirit (as e.g. atheists read it) can never bring one to a spiritual and/or coherent understanding of God. To simplify, we need the Spirit to formulate any doctrine, and try to be humble about our formulations.

Thanks for complementing me and helping me to explain and understand better what I struggle to put in words. ;)

All the best, Philip

Toolman,

Thanks for your comments. I would not say that the trinity as such is a human-made scheme (that is not what you implied about my view - it is just to clarify my own understanding), and you are right that all human words / symbols that represent God is inadequate / incomplete. I would like to distinguish between the reality of the trinity and the doctrine of the trinity. The doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to explain the reality of the trinity. I would say all doctrine has a human, imperfect element. That's why doctrine is always revisited and refined by the church. Yet I will not say that all doctrines are merely human. I agree that God lead the church to formulate humanly understandable systems - nothing wrong with that. All that I say is that the words, symbols, comparisons we use to describe God's trinity (that any doctrine consists of) is incomplete, also the "constraints" that I have mentioned ;). What I would say is that Scripture is no doctrine in itself apart from the working of the Spirit. Scripture, read apart from the enlightenment of the Spirit (as e.g. atheists read it) can never bring one to a spiritual and/or coherent understanding of God. To simplify, we need the Spirit to formulate any doctrine, and try to be humble about our formulations.

Thanks for complementing me and helping me to explain and understand better what I struggle to put in words. ;)

All the best, Philip

Philip,

No doubt we see through a glass darkly now, because of our limitations, and will someday know God in all His fullness.

That in itself does not make the doctrine of the Trinity limited but simply means that we are not fully capable of understanding the doctrine (or the reality if you prefer) at this time. The doctrine is scriptural and accurate/true even if we are currently unable to grasp it fully.

I cannot understand fully how a virgin can be impregnated with God's Son but I no less know the doctrine of the virgin birth to be fully scriptural and fully accurate and true.

Good thoughts :)

I’m not a new Christian really but I have only recently become more involved in reading the Bible and really learning and living the way I should….or trying to I guess. I fail miserably a lot of times but I’m working on it.

For as long as I remember I have been told that God, Jesus and the Holy Sprit are one in the same…and I have excepted that as the truth. Recently however I have made a new friend at work who is a Jehovah’s Witness and man let me tell, he has some very different views than what I have been taught in the past. Now please understand I’m not in any way criticizing him, in fact he’s a wonderful person and if nothing else has made want to learn even more.

Anyway, he makes the argument that Jesus said that his Father was greater than Himself, he prayed to God and he is referred to as the Son of God…not necessarily God Himself. He tells me that when Jesus said that He and God are one, he means in likeness…like Family I guess.

Anyway, I consider this to be a very important question…huge question really. I don’t know scripture well enough to argue with him or even tell him why I disagree. It does however make me want to research the question and I would like to get your opinions please.

So please do share your thoughts, scriptures etc…

Thanks J

There have been many wonderful posts here, and I would like to add something else, if I may...

One of the foundational beliefs within Christianity is that Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God. This understanding is so important, that the Council of Nicea was convened in order to refute the Arian heresy that stated that Christ was a lesser, created being (which is what the JWs believe BTW).

The JWs love to point out passages of scripture that seem to support their view; actually having no understanding of what is meant. They love the verses of scripture wherein Christ declares that the "Father is greater than I ", or "No one knows except the Father" etc., while ignoring or explaining away the passages that support the fact that Father and Son are of one essence and indivisibly one God.

There is a principle involved here:

In order for Christ to fulfill His work, to be our "kinsman redeemer"; it was necessary that He live as a man, suffer as a man, die as a man...In order to do this, our Savior (and here is the key point) willingly chose to cooperate within the limitations of being human. He never gave up the attributes of deity (omniscience, omnipotence, etc.) but rather chose not to exercise those attributes.

To put it another way...Remember the transfiguration on the mount? The miracle was not that His glory was seen...The miracle was that He held all that glory in the rest of the time, as it were.

A piece of advise though, from one who has had extensive experience in sharing with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (JWs)...don't try to play the "Bible ping-pong" game; You give a verse, they give a verse, you give another verse, they give another verse, etc...(I'm sure you've already experienced this!); for not only do they re-define Christian terms to fit their own theology; the Bible is not their final point of authority (in spite of what they might tell you)...Their final point of authority is what the WBTS tells them the Bible means! Sadly, most JWs know the lie better than the average Christian knows the truth.

I would recommend that you instead tell them what Jesus has done for you in your life...How He has and is changing you etc., for that is something that they can not argue with!

Remember, One plants the seed, another waters it, but it is God that gives the increase!

Blessings!

For a great site to give good insight into the JW cult there is probably none better than Paul and Pat Blizard's (former 3rd Generation JWs) website:

http://www.watchthetower.com/

Tons of good info there.

Toolman[/left];1232685]Philip,

No doubt we see through a glass darkly now, because of our limitations, and will someday know God in all His fullness.

That in itself does not make the doctrine of the Trinity limited but simply means that we are not fully capable of understanding the doctrine (or the reality if you prefer) at this time. The doctrine is scriptural and accurate/true even if we are currently unable to grasp it fully.

I cannot understand fully how a virgin can be impregnated with God's Son but I no less know the doctrine of the virgin birth to be fully scriptural and fully accurate and true.

Good thoughts :)


Toolman, thanks once again for your comments. Obviously we agree in essence ;). You just made me think once again on how I understand the concept of "doctrine" as such. I will share my thoughts (feel free to differ):


As I understand it, there is a difference between the "doctrine" of the trinity and the "truth of" the trinity. "Doctrine" is something that the church write and formulate - something that tries to put the truth of Scripture into a coherent scheme. It can never have the same authority than Scripture itself. For example, the word "trinity" is a doctrinal term. It attempts to denote the truth and reality of the actual character of God, but it is just analog to the actual reality it denotes. The term "trinity" as such does not occur in the Bible. The other difference is that one can speak of doctrines. There are different doctrines,formulations and explanations of the truth of God's character. But that does not change the reality of the objective truth of what we call the "trinity." The other difference is that a doctrine cannot transcend the dimension of the natural reason, whereas the actual truth of that which a doctrine tries to explain (the Referent), does. The Spirit of God Himself can completely grasp and comprehend the "trinity" fully and completely, but no doctrine of the "trinity" can.


That's why I tend to try and formulate the reality of the character / Persons of God in terms of constraints / limitations, rather than in absolute doctrinal categories or formula's that are cast in iron. Obviously, any constraint is also a form of doctrine. But my idea with these constraints is do make small leaps from Scripture to doctrine in an attempt to keep doctrinal formulations as close to Scripture as possible. It is just a different way of approaching the formulation of doctrine.

I hope I'm making some sense to you.


Your views...?

Toolman, thanks once again for your comments. Obviously we agree in essence ;). You just made me think once again on how I understand the concept of "doctrine" as such. I will share my thoughts (feel free to differ):


As I understand it, there is a difference between the "doctrine" of the trinity and the "truth of" the trinity. "Doctrine" is something that the church write and formulate - something that tries to put the truth of Scripture into a coherent scheme. It can never have the same authority than Scripture itself. For example, the word "trinity" is a doctrinal term. It attempts to denote the truth and reality of the actual character of God, but it is just analog to the actual reality it denotes. The term "trinity" as such does not occur in the Bible. The other difference is that one can speak of doctrines. There are different doctrines,formulations and explanations of the truth of God's character. But that does not change the reality of the objective truth of what we call the "trinity." The other difference is that a doctrine cannot transcend the dimension of the natural reason, whereas the actual truth of that which a doctrine tries to explain (the Referent), does. The Spirit of God Himself can completely grasp and comprehend the "trinity" fully and completely, but no doctrine of the "trinity" can.


That's why I tend to try and formulate the reality of the character / Persons of God in terms of constraints / limitations, rather than in absolute doctrinal categories or formula's that are cast in iron. Obviously, any constraint is also a form of doctrine. But my idea with these constraints is do make small leaps from Scripture to doctrine in an attempt to keep doctrinal formulations as close to Scripture as possible. It is just a different way of approaching the formulation of doctrine.

I hope I'm making some sense to you.


Your views...?

I can understand and agree with alot of what you are stating but I would say that doctrine (especially essential doctrine) is/can be more than just what the Church formulates but what the scripture declares. After all doctrine simply means "a teaching". Here are the scriptures which mention doctrine:

Doctrine scriptures (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=doctrine&version1=50&searchtype=all&spanbegin=52&spanend=73)

Now, the scripture declares there is false doctrine, doctrine of men and scriptural doctrine, so we can know that doctrine and scripture can be synonymous and that correct doctrine comes from scripture.

So, when we speak of essential Christian doctrines, those doctrines that are uniquely essential to the Christian religion we would identify those essential doctrines as things that scripture clearly proclaims and which revolve around the person of Christ, the nature of God and the nature of salvation.

For instance, the doctrine of the deity of Christ along with the doctrine of His humanity is clearly presented in scripture. We may use fancy theological words to define His deity and humanity (Hypostatic Union, Communicatio Idiomatum) but it is nonetheless a doctrine that is laid out in the scriptures by the Law, prophets, psalms, gospels and epistles. The doctrine is in the scripture and is not man or church made but is scriptural teaching.

The same is true of the doctrine of the virgin birth. This doctrine comes directly from scripture and though we may not understand all the intricacies of how God can impregnate a human we nonetheless declare this as a doctrine (teaching) of the scripture (and therefore a doctrine/teaching of the Church).

Same exact thing for the doctrine of the Trinity. Scripture declares that God is one being who reveals Himself in 3 distinct seperate persons. Scripture teaches that, so naturally the Church also teaches that as doctrine. But the scripture, not the Church, is the one upon whom the doctrine is formulated.

So, when we talk about the essential doctrines of Christianity I think it is vital to reiterate that these doctrines come from scripture (Sola Scriptura) and not from man made ways to try to understand God. They are not man made ways, but God made ways for man to understand God.

I hope we are not splitting hairs but I do feel that is a strong point to make, especially concerning the scriptural doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity.

That is my view :)

I’ve heard these as well. But here is the dilemma I am presented with when I try and interpret them. In Hebrew culture, when a firstborn (or only) son was sent on a mission (which Christ was) the son had all of the authority of the father in representing him. He was, for all intents and purposes, the father in the matter at hand.

“You want the father? You’re lookin’ at him.” This could just as easily been what Christ meant. He did say, after all, “no man comes to the Father but by me.” So we have a bit of a contradiction if we are to apply the same interpretations to His other statements which would appear to set Him us as an individual separate (in form anyway) from the Father.

Never been able to solve that one apart from speculation and wishful thinking. I’m still up in the air about how close God wants us to make the two aside from Christ’s undeniable authority and complete divinity.

The following Scriptures indicates to me that Jesus is not the Father:

Jesus prays to the Father: Matt 26:36-39; Joh 11:41; 12:28; 14:16; 17:1-26

Jesus and the Father are distinguished by the "AND" in these verses: e.g. 2 Cor 1:2 "Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ."
See also Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; Eph 6:23; Phi 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Th 1:1; 2 Th 1:2; Phi 1:3

2Jo 1:9 "Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son." (double KAI in Greek).

Rev 3:21 distinguishes between the Father and the Son.

The Father loves the Son (Joh 3:35; 5:20; 15:19; 17:23-26; Matt 3:17; 17:5; 2 Pet 1:17) and the Son loves the Father (Joh 14:31)

The Father sent the Son (Joh 17:18; 20:21; compare Joh 3:16-17; Gal 4:4; 1 Joh 4:10).

etc.

I don't know if this helps...

So, when we talk about the essential doctrines of Christianity I think it is vital to reiterate that these doctrines come from scripture (Sola Scriptura) and not from man made ways to try to understand God. They are not man made ways, but God made ways for man to understand God.

I hope we are not splitting hairs but I do feel that is a strong point to make, especially concerning the scriptural doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity.

That is my view :)

I am with you once again. I would say the most important aspect where we agree is that Scripture is our ultimate authority regarding these truths. But I definitely agree with the notion that being humble about our formulations of doctrine must not be an open door for accommodation of false doctrines, and that we must proclaim and hold onto the central truths of Scripture. And indeed, the truth about God being 3 God-ly persons in 1 being, the virgin birth, Christ's death, the physical resurrection, etc. are central truths that we must not compromise on. Maybe I just tend to call them "central truths" or even "central teachings" rather than "central doctrines." Maybe it is just a personal preference, since the term "doctrine" have a more human connotation. I would prefer the term "teaching." For example, our Afrikaans translation (Afrikaans is my first language) does not contain the term "doctrine" (the Afrikaans equivalent thereof) but only "teaching".

Anyway, thanks for your views and a meaningful discussion.

All the best.

I hope to spend more time here and learn more.

The following Scriptures indicates to me that Jesus is not the Father:

Jesus prays to the Father: Matt 26:36-39; Joh 11:41; 12:28; 14:16; 17:1-26

Jesus and the Father are distinguished by the "AND" in these verses: e.g. 2 Cor 1:2 "Grace be unto you, and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ."
See also Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; Eph 6:23; Phi 1:2; Col 1:2; 1 Th 1:1; 2 Th 1:2; Phi 1:3

2Jo 1:9 "Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son." (double KAI in Greek).

Rev 3:21 distinguishes between the Father and the Son.

The Father loves the Son (Joh 3:35; 5:20; 15:19; 17:23-26; Matt 3:17; 17:5; 2 Pet 1:17) and the Son loves the Father (Joh 14:31)

The Father sent the Son (Joh 17:18; 20:21; compare Joh 3:16-17; Gal 4:4; 1 Joh 4:10).

etc.

I don't know if this helps...


It certainly makes a lot of sense. The evangelical church has sort of set us up for heresy if we don't believe that God and Christ are one and the same. I don't know how I feel about that. We were given specific instructions on how to pray and to whom. So I guess it's years of indoctrination versus what appears for all intents and purposes to be a distinction between the two for whatever reason...and to whatever end.

I am with you once again. I would say the most important aspect where we agree is that Scripture is our ultimate authority regarding these truths. But I definitely agree with the notion that being humble about our formulations of doctrine must not be an open door for accommodation of false doctrines, and that we must proclaim and hold onto the central truths of Scripture. And indeed, the truth about God being 3 God-ly persons in 1 being, the virgin birth, Christ's death, the physical resurrection, etc. are central truths that we must not compromise on.

We absolutely agree.


Maybe I just tend to call them "central truths" or even "central teachings" rather than "central doctrines." Maybe it is just a personal preference, since the term "doctrine" have a more human connotation. I would prefer the term "teaching." For example, our Afrikaans translation (Afrikaans is my first language) does not contain the term "doctrine" (the Afrikaans equivalent thereof) but only "teaching".

Ahhh... perhaps that is it and it is simply a cultural difference in how we approach and understand the word "doctrine".

Just for study here is the greek word that is translated "doctrine" in the verses I linked (and "teaching" in your afrikaans translation I'm sure):

didachv (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1322&version=kjv)

You can get the Strong's definition there as well as links to where all it is used within the scriptures.


Anyway, thanks for your views and a meaningful discussion.

All the best.

You are welcome and I definitely enjoyed your input and your spirit in giving it. Great thoughts!

It certainly makes a lot of sense. The evangelical church has sort of set us up for heresy if we don't believe that God and Christ are one and the same.

FB,

I'm not sure what doctrine of the evangelical church you are addressing that teaches that the Father and the Son are one and the same person.

The doctrine of the Trinity most certainly does not teach that. Modalism would teach that but not Trinitarianism. Modalism teaches that God appears in different "forms" in the OT as the Father, in the gospels as The Son and after pentecost as the Spirit but that it is only one person throughout.

The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with scripture that there is only 1 God who is revealed in 3 distinct persons. Christ is a distinct person from the Father but is nonetheless of one essence with the Father, being God and not a created being.

Perhaps you can help me understand exactly what you are addressing that is being taught incorrectly in the evangelical churches.

FB,

I'm not sure what doctrine of the evangelical church you are addressing that teaches that the Father and the Son are one and the same person.

The doctrine of the Trinity most certainly does not teach that. Modalism would teach that but not Trinitarianism. Modalism teaches that God appears in different "forms" in the OT as the Father, in the gospels as The Son and after pentecost as the Spirit but that it is only one person throughout.

The doctrine of the Trinity agrees with scripture that there is only 1 God who is revealed in 3 distinct persons. Christ is a distinct person from the Father but is nonetheless of one essence with the Father, being God and not a created being.

Perhaps you can help me understand exactly what you are addressing that is being taught incorrectly in the evangelical churches.

Well not sure about yours. But I was always taught that God created the Earth but that Jesus was God and so He also created the Earth. Which essentially leads me to a problem I had which I posted in another thread that God essentially killed Himself on the cross. Whenever I have talked to evangelical pastors they typically responded that though my simplification was crass …it was in essence true.

Just seems a bit odd to me. Which is it? So if Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are distinct people then Godhead is a thing to be had or possessed and not a thing that is. Are you suggesting that being God is more of an office?

Well not sure about yours. But I was always taught that God created the Earth but that Jesus was God and so He also created the Earth. Which essentially leads me to a problem I had which I posted in another thread that God essentially killed Himself on the cross. Whenever I have talked to evangelical pastors they typically responded that though my simplification was crass …it was in essence true.

I agree, that it was most assuredly God who died on the cross (as well as man), Jesus being both 100% God and 100% man, so I agree with the pastors on this.
I also agree that Christ is the Creator (Colossians 1:16).


Just seems a bit odd to me. Which is it?

Well, it is "odd" from our vantage point because it is mysterious and doesn't make logical human sense. Reason can't put a handle on this and hold it.

That is why I mentioned earlier (in post #18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1232605&postcount=18)) that even though we accept the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ's deity and humanity it still does not remove the mystery, the supernatural or the other worldliness of the reality of God and who He is.


So if Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are distinct people then Godhead is a thing to be had or possessed and not a thing that is. Are you suggesting that being God is more of an office?

No I'm not suggesting that. I am affirming that God is one Being in essence who is revealed in 3 distinct "persons".

I will paste in a bit from Matt Slick's site here, for he says it very nicely:


The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm


I am not saying this is some easy concept to grasp or that logically and reasonably makes sense. I am saying this is what scripture declares and that this is God we are grasping and there is nothing else to point to in creation that perfectly matches Him enough to point at and say "Yeah, the trinity is like that". All analogies eventually fall short (H20, humans, etc.)

But the doctrine of the Trinity affirms that Christ is seperate in person from the Father, yet one in essence with Him, being eternal, uncreated God.

When we proclaim them as the same person we slip into modalism.
When we proclaim them as distinct in essence we slip into tritheism.
When we deny Christ's deity we slip into arianism (as the JWs do).

Hope that helps. If not feel free to ask for further clarity, if I can give any I'll try.

I agree, that it was most assuredly God who died on the cross (as well as man), Jesus being both 100% God and 100% man, so I agree with the pastors on this.
I also agree that Christ is the Creator (Colossians 1:16).



Well, it is "odd" from our vantage point because it is mysterious and doesn't make logical human sense. Reason can't put a handle on this and hold it.

That is why I mentioned earlier (in post #18 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1232605&postcount=18)) that even though we accept the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ's deity and humanity it still does not remove the mystery, the supernatural or the other worldliness of the reality of God and who He is.



No I'm not suggesting that. I am affirming that God is one Being in essence who is revealed in 3 distinct "persons".

I will paste in a bit from Matt Slick's site here, for he says it very nicely:



I am not saying this is some easy concept to grasp or that logically and reasonably makes sense. I am saying this is what scripture declares and that this is God we are grasping and there is nothing else to point to in creation that perfectly matches Him enough to point at and say "Yeah, the trinity is like that". All analogies eventually fall short (H20, humans, etc.)

But the doctrine of the Trinity affirms that Christ is seperate in person from the Father, yet one in essence with Him, being eternal, uncreated God.

When we proclaim them as the same person we slip into modalism.
When we proclaim them as distinct in essence we slip into tritheism.
When we deny Christ's deity we slip into arianism (as the JWs do).

Hope that helps. If not feel free to ask for further clarity, if I can give any I'll try.

Yeah, I suppose we will have to chalk it up to mystery then. Because I haven't a clue about the results of all that. Nor what it looks like. So I'll just keep on believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that God is the Father and that the Holy Spirit is the one Christ sent to us when He ascended to sit next to the Father. And hope that I can avoid a good beating when my number is called

Yeah, I suppose we will have to chalk it up to mystery then. Because I haven't a clue about the results of all that. Nor what it looks like. So I'll just keep on believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that God is the Father and that the Holy Spirit is the one Christ sent to us when He ascended to sit next to the Father. And hope that I can avoid a good beating when my number is called

Well, I'm sure you meant it tongue in cheek (I hope) but avoiding a beating is not why I attempt to understand God as best I can with what He has revealed in scripture (though I think that discipline can be a motivation :)).
My real motivation (and I'm sure your's too) is a desire to know Him intimately.

So, when His word declares that Christ is God and that the Father is God and the Spirit is God and these 3 are 1 I accept it and marvel at how He is seperate from His creation.

This in no way undermines that Christ is the Son or that the Holy Spirit was sent to us but it also does not deny Christ's deity or the Holy Spirit's deity.

When you say Christ was the "Son of God" does that indicate that you believe He is a created being? Because the JWs would readily agree with us that He is the Son of God but they would definitely mean He is a created being and not God (eternal).

Well, I'm sure you meant it tongue in cheek (I hope) but avoiding a beating is not why I attempt to understand God as best I can with what He has revealed in scripture (though I think that discipline can be a motivation :)).
My real motivation (and I'm sure your's too) is a desire to know Him intimately.

So, when His word declares that Christ is God and that the Father is God and the Spirit is God and these 3 are 1 I accept it and marvel at how He is seperate from His creation.

This in no way undermines that Christ is the Son or that the Holy Spirit was sent to us but it also does not deny Christ's deity or the Holy Spirit's deity.

When you say Christ was the "Son of God" does that indicate that you believe He is a created being? Because the JWs would readily agree with us that He is the Son of God but they would definitely mean He is a created being and not God (eternal).

I most definitely don't believe He was a created Being. He has always existed. I just know that when He teaches me to pray to the Father that’s who I pray to. I was being tongue in cheek. :) I was saying that I don’t want to discover I have been wrong all this time in how my mind feebly grasps God’s Personhood. In other words, I am hoping it isn’t all that important in the end that we can’t fully understand it.

I most definitely don't believe He was a created Being. He has always existed. I just know that when He teaches me to pray to the Father that’s who I pray to. I was being tongue in cheek. :) I was saying that I don’t want to discover I have been wrong all this time in how my mind feebly grasps God’s Personhood. In other words, I am hoping it isn’t all that important in the end that we can’t fully understand it.

Gotcha... good points.

I agree, I pray to the Father also.

This is one of the arguements used by the JWs. While the Bible clearly states that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (God is God in whatever form He chooses to manifest Himself) we need to remember we are not saved by what we believe but by the shed blood of Jesus when we choose to repent and follow Him. I believe it is best to avoid this type of discussion with a JW.

This is one of the arguements used by the JWs. While the Bible clearly states that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (God is God in whatever form He chooses to manifest Himself) we need to remember we are not saved by what we believe but by the shed blood of Jesus when we choose to repent and follow Him. I believe it is best to avoid this type of discussion with a JW.


Can you clarify your statement please?

This is one of the arguements used by the JWs. While the Bible clearly states that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (God is God in whatever form He chooses to manifest Himself)

Modalism teaches this but scripture teaches that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate persons who are of the same essence (God) and that God is a tri-unity.

One of the illustrations used by C.S. Lewis to explain the Trinity is that of a 2-dimensional world and a 3-dimensional world. If you were to send two people from the 3D world to the 2D world to explain what a melon looks like, one might cut it horizontally and show a circle while another might cut it vertically and show an oval. Both are true...the point is that the mind of the 2D world does not have sufficient information to understand the concepts of the 3D world. The only thing that can be done is to explain 3D concepts in 2d language. It takes away some of the depth, but it remains truthful and becomes understandable.

I believe this gives an accurate picture of what we are dealing with concerning the Trinity. You can say that God killed Himself and that is illogical. Then again, it might just be that your finite mind cannot understand it. After all, the Bible shows quite clearly that Jesus is both distinct from God and yet God at the same time. Take away from either truth and you distort the spiritual reality of things. You can try to conform it to your 2D understanding and 'make' it fit, but it will do nothing more than take away some of the mystery of God and replace the Biblical view of God with a human view of God. In my estimation, that price is too high to pay if all we do is try to make things 'fit' in our understanding.

God is in a different category altogether. Does it not seem logical that those type of things would not be altogether comprehensible to us?

This is one of the arguements used by the JWs. While the Bible clearly states that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (God is God in whatever form He chooses to manifest Himself) we need to remember we are not saved by what we believe but by the shed blood of Jesus when we choose to repent and follow Him. I believe it is best to avoid this type of discussion with a JW.revrobor,

I agree that many of the distinctives we may not have clear. But if one does not believe that Jesus is God, then he is not "believing" in Christ. To believe in Christ assumes that you accept Him as God's Son... as God in flesh.

BD

Does it not seem logical that those type of things would not be altogether comprehensible to us?

In fact, I am staking my eternal life on that possibility. Because if it is comprehensible and I am missing it then I will have some explaining to do when the King of Glory stares me in the face for the first time.

Read John.

Jesus is the Great I AM. Apart from Him, truth does not exist. Apart from Him, there is only darkness. Apart from Him, there is no health. Apart from Him, there is no way to heaven. Apart from Him, we do not know God. Apart from Him, there is only death and hunger. Apart from Him, you only have the devil who is trying to make you comfortably numb in a world that is passing away.

And He is God. The 24 elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne and will worship HIM who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying:

WORTHY ART THOU, OUR LORD AND OUR GOD TO RECEIVE GLORY AND HONOR AND POWER; FOR THOU DIDST CREATE ALL THINGS AND BECAUSE OF THY WILL THEY EXISTED, AND WERE CEATED.

WORTHY IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN TO RECEIVE POWER AND RICHES AND WISDOM AND MIGHT AND HONOR AND GLORY AND BLESSING.

TO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB, BE BLESSING AND HONOR AND GLORY AND DOMINION FOREVER AND EVER.

And the four living creatures kept saying: AMEN. And the elders fell down and worshipped.

Read John.

Jesus is the Great I AM. Apart from Him, truth does not exist. Apart from Him, there is only darkness. Apart from Him, there is no health. Apart from Him, there is no way to heaven. Apart from Him, we do not know God. Apart from Him, there is only death and hunger. Apart from Him, you only have the devil who is trying to make you comfortably numb in a world that is passing away.

And He is God. The 24 elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne and will worship HIM who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying:

WORTHY ART THOU, OUR LORD AND OUR GOD TO RECEIVE GLORY AND HONOR AND POWER; FOR THOU DIDST CREATE ALL THINGS AND BECAUSE OF THY WILL THEY EXISTED, AND WERE CEATED.

WORTHY IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN TO RECEIVE POWER AND RICHES AND WISDOM AND MIGHT AND HONOR AND GLORY AND BLESSING.

TO HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB, BE BLESSING AND HONOR AND GLORY AND DOMINION FOREVER AND EVER.

And the four living creatures kept saying: AMEN. And the elders fell down and worshipped.


I'm sorry could you speak up just a bit? ;)

Modalism teaches this but scripture teaches that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seperate persons who are of the same essence (God) and that God is a tri-unity.

I have no idea what "Modalism" is. What I do know is that God the Father is God, Jesus the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. It is doctrine of the Christian religion that requires that one believe as you have stated. However, there is no place in Scripture that we are required to believe anything about the "Trinity" in order to be saved. We are saved by the shed blood of our Lord when we choose to repent and follow Him.

I have no idea what "Modalism" is. What I do know is that God the Father is God, Jesus the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. It is doctrine of the Christian religion that requires that one believe as you have stated. However, there is no place in Scripture that we are required to believe anything about the "Trinity" in order to be saved. We are saved by the shed blood of our Lord when we choose to repent and follow Him.

I didn't say anything about salvation. What I said was the scripture reveals that God is the Father, the Son and the Spirit. One God who is revealed in 3 persons who are of the same essence.