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View Full Version : Solid Biblical Doctrine



Sold Out
Apr 19th 2007, 06:20 PM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?

Ninna
Apr 19th 2007, 06:46 PM
Yes, it is frustrating! I feel that I have to play guessing games........it seems to be very apparent on this board as of late.:( But that is where we come in......part of our growth is to make disciples, to share what the word says.

dljc
Apr 19th 2007, 06:49 PM
It is frustrating, and I encourage the congregation of the church I go to, to get into the Word! Don't take my word for it, you need to know whether I'm telling the truth or not. Don't listen the the man speaking, listen to HIM!

Sold Out
Apr 19th 2007, 06:54 PM
It is frustrating, and I encourage the congregation of the church I go to, to get into the Word! Don't take my word for it, you need to know whether I'm telling the truth or not. Don't listen the the man speaking, listen to HIM!

That's exactly what my pastor says!!

Has anyone ever studied the 6 elementary doctrines listed in Hebrews 6 that every believer should know?

dljc
Apr 19th 2007, 06:59 PM
That's exactly what my pastor says!!

Has anyone ever studied the 6 elementary doctrines listed in Hebrews 6 that every believer should know? Good point! We have been studying the book of Hebrews in the Sunday night Bible study that I teach. You just gave me an idea. :idea: Recap the whole book at the end of the study on Hebrews. :pp Thank you! :)

Centurionoflight
Apr 19th 2007, 08:18 PM
Sold out


I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!


People flock to what they seek.
If they seek fluffy words ofr their ears; they is what they flock to .
If they seek truth; that is also what they flock to .

Sold Out
Apr 19th 2007, 08:58 PM
Good point! We have been studying the book of Hebrews in the Sunday night Bible study that I teach. You just gave me an idea. :idea: Recap the whole book at the end of the study on Hebrews. :pp Thank you! :)

I'm so glad! We did an indepth study with our pastor for a couple of months, and after digging into the word and getting a grasp of these doctrines, I feel very capable as a Christian. Remember the commercial....KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

dljc
Apr 19th 2007, 09:18 PM
I'm so glad! We did an indepth study with our pastor for a couple of months, and after digging into the word and getting a grasp of these doctrines, I feel very capable as a Christian. Remember the commercial....KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!Amen! :pp :pp Without knowledge how do you put on the armor?

Walstib
Apr 20th 2007, 12:00 AM
I feel that I have to play guessing games

I am interested in what you mean by guessing games? To understand better.

Thanks,

Joe

Ninna
Apr 20th 2007, 12:08 AM
I am interested in what you mean by guessing games? To understand better.

Thanks,

Joe

To get an idea what a poster believes when it appears that they don't know what they believe.....does that make any sense?

deaconrick
Apr 20th 2007, 12:39 AM
I, too, am very frustrated with this situation. Some of it, I believe, is the contemporary praise songs we hear so frequently in church. Did anyone ever notice that most of those focus on us, and not Christ? So many don't even mention "Jesus" in lyrics.

Now, if you look at the hymns that have come down to us through the ages, there ris such good theology in them. And singing makes them easier to remember, associating the words with a melody. I know this isn't necessarily a popular opinion but I really thiink we're better off singing the old hymns. BTW, I think it's better than fine;acturally great, to play the traditional melodies with more contemporary instruments. Guitar, keyboard, and drums are great. But the theology in those old hymns needs to be taught.

Walstib
Apr 20th 2007, 02:36 AM
To get an idea what a poster believes when it appears that they don't know what they believe.....does that make any sense?

Yes and thanks. I am still not sure why but that statment really has me thinking I need to think about something... *shrug*

Joe

Sold Out
Apr 20th 2007, 01:22 PM
I agree with momof5. I do see that as I progress thru the forums. You don't really know what someone believes until they verbalize/write it. I have to say I'm a little shocked at the lack of basic bible doctrine.

I was in a baptist church for 10 yrs, and it was a wonderful experience, but I did not grow. We had lots of potlucks, put on plays, did group activities, but there was no solid bible teaching. I fault my previous pastor for that. He knew better.

My husband and I became charter members of a new bible church 6 yrs ago. In six years, under intense bible teaching, I feel like I've been to seminary. We have been so fortunate in that our pastor used to teach seminary, so he just teaches us the same stuff! I can't tell you how good it feels to be able to answer questions and objections using the bible!

Victorious
Apr 23rd 2007, 02:15 PM
I have noticed a popular type of "cafeteria" style method of arriving at Bible doctrine. ...taking a verse and making a "solid" doctrine from it without looking to see if it contradicts the whole counsel of God. Doctrinal truths will be seen in more than one area of the Word.
;)

Mercy4Me
Apr 23rd 2007, 02:35 PM
I, too, agree...and it's made it very frustrating to find a church! I've noticed that too, deaconrick, about a lot of the worship music...it's all about OUR "worship experience", and not about glorifying God. The church we're visiting right now seems to do a little better on that than most, but oh, how I miss those hymns!

My guess is the move to "seeker friendly" churches has taken a lot of doctrinal teaching out of the pulpit, although most churches also do have small groups that go a little deeper. I don't think the trend has been beneficial to the body of Christ...

cheech
Apr 23rd 2007, 03:08 PM
The church we attend encourages Bible study and has several going on not only Sundays but during the week as well. My husband has emailed the pastor on a couple verses he used in church before and asked him about them. The pastor seemed quite happy he did so, explaining them and informed my hubby that anytime he (pastor) says something and hubby is unsure, to question him on it as he (pastor) is not beyond making errors. That impresses us.

In our recovery program, I do not just read the bible verse out of our lesson book as it is sometimes shortened or the wording is a bit different although the meaning the same. I go directly to the Bible and quote or read it from there in its entirety and encourage the leaders to do so. When I do my bulletins for the program, I will put in which verses are used there as on the lessons we pass out so the members know where to find these verses and are always encouraged to stay in the word.

On the board, I always try to back up what I say with biblical verses. We must always get in the habit of doing this.

One verse always comes to mind when talking about these things:

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

We can only do this if we know what the word of God is...by reading it. This is also how we can discern truth from lies right to the very end.

I'm also partial to this one as well:

2 Cor 4:1-3
1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28850a)]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

VerticalReality
Apr 23rd 2007, 03:11 PM
I'm actually becoming leary of the term "doctrine" that many today want to use. It seems that a good majority of the time that I see this term used today it is better described as intellectual theology.

aurora77
Apr 23rd 2007, 03:24 PM
People flock to what they seek.
If they seek fluffy words ofr their ears; they is what they flock to .
If they seek truth; that is also what they flock to .

This is so true. It's hard in today's feel good culture to really teach right and wrong. Christianity has become very infused with the secular culture. We fall into the trap of thinking that if our conscience says it's OK, God must agree. Rather than beginning with what God teaches and conforming our lives to Him, we try to conform God to our beliefs. That isn't Christianity.

deaconrick
Apr 23rd 2007, 05:57 PM
I, too, agree...and it's made it very frustrating to find a church! I've noticed that too, deaconrick, about a lot of the worship music...it's all about OUR "worship experience", and not about glorifying God. The church we're visiting right now seems to do a little better on that than most, but oh, how I miss those hymns!

My guess is the move to "seeker friendly" churches has taken a lot of doctrinal teaching out of the pulpit, although most churches also do have small groups that go a little deeper. I don't think the trend has been beneficial to the body of Christ...


You're right about the trend toward seeker-services. Doctrine has been left out of the sanctuary. This is not a good thing. So many people I hear today say that doctine isn't important, that the important piece is that you "experience" Jesus in the worship setting.

That's why I'm Lutheran. We believe, teach, and confess solid Biblical doctrine, both in the pulpit and in small groups. We also sing the hymns on a weekly basis. I know for me that the hymns have helped me remember important doctines at times when I really needed to do so. It's easier, at least for me, to remember a song than just the words alone.

Sold Out
Apr 24th 2007, 07:10 PM
There's a commercial that ran here in our area about a 'new worship experience'. It initially shows a scene of a rock concert, then it says, "wouldn't think this was church, huh?" Then it goes on to say that you can go to this new church with a new perspective and get a new experience.

Jesus never had to put on any music shows to get an audience. He simply spoke the truth.

deaconrick
Apr 24th 2007, 10:09 PM
I'm actually becoming leary of the term "doctrine" that many today want to use. It seems that a good majority of the time that I see this term used today it is better described as intellectual theology.


For us Lutherans, our doctrine is something we hold very close to our hearts. It is what the Bible teaches about a variety of different issuses; such as the Trinity, the diety of Jesus, and other areas of faith. You cannot separate doctrine from your faith. What you believe is your "doctrine."

Wise-Owl
Apr 25th 2007, 12:08 AM
We have to remember our responsibility toward Truth. Nick

Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

TEITZY
Apr 25th 2007, 01:15 AM
Well this is a refreshing thread:)

Heb 5:13-14 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

To me this is the biggest problem with professing Christians today, the inability to discern between good and evil. Even the most worldly pursuits, attitudes and ideas/philosophies are accomodated by the church today and Christianized to portray a "form of godliness".

We've just finished preaching through first & second Timothy and it is just so applicable to the church today as it was when it was first written:

2 Tim 4:1-4 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Cheers
Leigh

JehovahsDaughter
Apr 26th 2007, 12:53 AM
Yes I agree, the bible stats that in the last days people will be falling away! they will lean more toward people teaching to the "itching ears" just look at the churches in christendom acceptnig gay pastors, women preachers (though I am a woman I go out & minister to others, NOT take over an elders role, there's a difference) I use to be a SBC member (Southern Baptist) though I have dear friends there I didn't put up with the teachings, I am now a reg. attendee of the kingdom hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, & no we're NOT a cult.:rofl: I laugh because after attending there, reading my bible I came to the conclusion for myself I am in the truth ,v.s. what was taught at other churches, but that is me, not others on here, what they choose is their choice, but yes a lot of churches are going astray. May they wake up & learn the truth.:B

Wise-Owl
Apr 26th 2007, 06:09 PM
JehovahsDaughter, being a member of a SBC church I would be interested in what teachings you couldn't put up with. Sometime, maybe you could Google Baptist Faith and Message and share what you don't agree with and send me an e-mail. Just curious, Nick.

ravi4u2
Apr 27th 2007, 03:47 AM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?

The real frustration is why does anyone need the pastor to give them the Word?

Hebrews 8:11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

---
Life! Just Live It! (http://www.lifegathering.net/)

VerticalReality
Apr 27th 2007, 12:14 PM
The real frustration is why does anyone need the pastor to give them the Word?

Hebrews 8:11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

---
Life! Just Live It! (http://www.lifegathering.net/)


That passage of scripture is not saying that we don't need people to teach and preach the Word of God. It's simply saying that people now do not need someone to tell them that they need to know God. People already know that. It's just that many still choose to reject Him. If we no longer need people to preach and teach the Word of God in the church, there would be no need for the Lord to give some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers to equip the saints for ministry (Ephesians 4:11). These are all offices that the Lord still puts some in, so we definitely still need them.

ravi4u2
Apr 27th 2007, 09:33 PM
That passage of scripture is not saying that we don't need people to teach and preach the Word of God. It's simply saying that people now do not need someone to tell them that they need to know God. People already know that. It's just that many still choose to reject Him. If we no longer need people to preach and teach the Word of God in the church, there would be no need for the Lord to give some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers to equip the saints for ministry (Ephesians 4:11). These are all offices that the Lord still puts some in, so we definitely still need them.

Usually Ephesians 4:11 is quoted out of context. That whole portion about spiritual gifts actually begins from verse 7 and the period is only found in verse 16. Here is what is says in the NKJV:

Ephesians 4:7- 16 - But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says: “ When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive,And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

To each one of us, gifts are given...and Christ's will is not that some men function in His gifts but the whole body...that the Ecclesia might be a perfect man. The role of the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher hence is in the equipping and the edifying. They are not the instructors of the Word but the facilitators to enable 'each one of us' to be more like the Word.

They are not offices as well...For who is the Apostle? Christ Jesus...Who is the Prophet? Christ Jesus...Who is the Evangelist? Who is the Pastor? Who is the Teacher? Christ Jesus...Christ Jesus...Christ Jesus...

When we draw a comparison with Elijah and Elisha...when Elijah was ascended on high, his mantle fall on Elisha. And Elisha could carry the mantle of Elijah because he was a mere man. But when Jesus ascended on high, his mantle fell not on one man, but on men. For no one man is capable of carrying the mantle of the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

That was why I said that it is frustrating to see the people of God depend on men to instruct them on the Word, when they should know the Word for themselves. The Truth shall set you free...The Truth (Christ Jesus - the Word who is God). And My sheep shall hear my voice says the Word...We need no mediators. We are a nation of holy priests...

The work of the five-fold is merely in serving (as Christ Jesus showed us by washing the feet of his disciples and becoming the lowest of servants). Serving God first...but also serving His people as the lowest of servants...not lording or ruling over...or placing oneself above...But in facilitating everyone to fulfill his own unique calling.

---
Life! Just Live It! (http://www.lifegathering.net/)

aurora77
May 1st 2007, 02:59 PM
Can I toss in a question for thought? What actions are you taking to help spread solid biblical doctrine? I'm doing my own study, to better equip myself, and I am teaching 3rd grade sunday school.

deaconrick
May 1st 2007, 03:02 PM
I teach Bible classes at my church. I preach on occasion. We go door-to-door once per month to invite people to come to our church from the neighborhood. It's not a lot, but it's a start.

Sold Out
May 1st 2007, 03:47 PM
Can I toss in a question for thought? What actions are you taking to help spread solid biblical doctrine? I'm doing my own study, to better equip myself, and I am teaching 3rd grade sunday school.

Those of us that are spiritually mature and equipped to do so, should personally disciple someone. I have discipled a few people and it is rewarding for both me & the other person. I basically go over the fundamentals of Christianity (trinity, salvation, repentance, baptisms, resurrections & rewards, hell), and most importantly, how to witness.

ravi4u2
May 1st 2007, 05:22 PM
It is so much easier to invite people someplace than for us to 'be' the Church. Being the Church is sound Bible doctrine. Let us not take the easy way out.

--
Life! Just Live It!
http://www.lifegathering.net/

Frances
May 1st 2007, 05:31 PM
I use to be a SBC member (Southern Baptist) though I have dear friends there I didn't put up with the teachings,

I'm intrigued. What doctrines from a Baptist church couldn't you put up with? If you'd said you had grave doubts about the beliefs of JW's I would certainly agree with you.

ravi4u2
May 2nd 2007, 09:33 PM
Sometimes we confuse doctrines with theology. Doctrines are absolutes and profitable. Theology on the other hand is man interpretation of what God means. "Theo" meaning God and "Logy" haveing it root word in Logic. very often, it is very difficult for man to make logic of God. I believe that the Rhema of God has got to be received in the heart. Not that it does not need to make intellectual sense. But faith is not an exercise of the intellectuals.

Isaiah66:9-10
May 3rd 2007, 05:57 AM
This is so true. It's hard in today's feel good culture to really teach right and wrong. Christianity has become very infused with the secular culture. We fall into the trap of thinking that if our conscience says it's OK, God must agree. Rather than beginning with what God teaches and conforming our lives to Him, we try to conform God to our beliefs. That isn't Christianity.

If you are refering to how judgemental Christianity is perceived, then I agree entirely. If you are trying to imply that Christianity trumps God's heart somehow, then I disagree entirely. For God, everything comes down to the state of our hearts. He doesn't ask about our religion because He knows where our hearts find their home. He does expect those of us who claim His time on earth as key to our salvation to at least try to reach others through His life here. But He is not giving us some set of human rules.

He wants us to understand that we are all His children, and if we declare our siblings based on anything other than their pure hearts, we are not in the right place. He wants us to share in His riches and to share them. He is not asking us to make them into a new rule. Some will accept ... that should be enough for you.

ravi4u2
May 3rd 2007, 07:39 PM
I think we should all declare the praises of Him who called us out of the darkness to His eternal light. If what we write or what we say is a testimony of Him, I feel that it is ok. If not, why were the epistles written? They are testaments of a lifestyle.
As for Paul, I feel that he was the ‘archetype’ of the followers or Christ. I think he was a norm rather than an exception. Does not the Word say that we are aliens and strangers in this world? How can we be aliens and strangers if we are assimilated into the cusotms of the world? In the Tamil language, there is a proverb. “Only one grain of rice needs to be tasted to see if an entire pot of rice has been cooked.” Paul I feel was the one rice who was representative of the entire generation who were under the furnace. Neither accepted by the Jews nor the Gentiles.
What then is normal? To the salmon going against the current is ‘normal’. It takes life to live against the current. The dead always flows with the current.

Jemma Ash
May 4th 2007, 06:18 PM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?
YES! I have moved to a new country and am looking for a decent church but all the churches i go to either have too much emphasis on Worship or the teaching doesn't even need you to open your bible. My dad is a pastor of a church but i wanted to look for a youthful church and this one is not but i have decided to stay with my dad's church because the teaching is good...always.;) We need to pray the pastors will wake up to the fact that they need to teach the Word and not what people want to hear.

Sold Out
May 4th 2007, 08:20 PM
YES! I have moved to a new country and am looking for a decent church but all the churches i go to either have too much emphasis on Worship or the teaching doesn't even need you to open your bible. My dad is a pastor of a church but i wanted to look for a youthful church and this one is not but i have decided to stay with my dad's church because the teaching is good...always.;) We need to pray the pastors will wake up to the fact that they need to teach the Word and not what people want to hear.

That is so true....some pastors water down their teaching to keep the membership up. They don't want to offend anyone.

ravi4u2
May 5th 2007, 02:28 AM
What about sinner's prayer??? It may come across as unbelievable to some but there is no sinner's prayer in the Bible. There is no some magical formula that you utter...after which you become saved or born again.

Sold Out
May 9th 2007, 01:17 PM
What about sinner's prayer??? It may come across as unbelievable to some but there is no sinner's prayer in the Bible. There is no some magical formula that you utter...after which you become saved or born again.

No, it does not shock me. I think a lot of emphasis is put on a 'Sinners Prayer', as if it conveys some magical powers. The bible simply says to 'call upon the name of the Lord." Rom 10:13

A lot of people say a lot of prayers that mean absolutely nothing. What does matter is WHAT they are placing their faith in.

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 01:44 PM
That is so true....some pastors water down their teaching to keep the membership up. They don't want to offend anyone.

This is exactly what happened in my old church. The pastor even said he refused to say anything offensive because he didn't want to "drive people away". It got to the point where his sermons were nothing but self help messages with a few Bible quotes thrown in for good measure. I never once heard him preach on repentance, holiness, sin, hell, or any of that.

And he was the king of the "Let's say a prayer together and ask Jesus into your heart" nonsense. I shudder to think of all the false converts that have come out of that church.

We had a fancy new church that needed to be paid for. So while he never preached the true gospel, he would frequently preach 15-20 minute long sermonettes about tithing. Who cares if people are lost in their sins as long as they fork over their 10%!! :cry:

It finally got to the point that I was getting physically repulsed every time I went to church, so I knew it was time to move on.

I searched and found a small church that still preaches a true gospel and solid biblical doctrine and has not sold out to the ways of the world. When I first visited and saw people on their knees in repentance after the sermon, I cried tears of joy, knowing I was home.

And I cried more tears of joy when the pastor said he doesn't care about "filling seats", that he is there to preach the truth of God's Word. :cry:

Jemma Ash
May 9th 2007, 02:34 PM
I searched and found a small church that still preaches a true gospel and solid biblical doctrine and has not sold out to the ways of the world. When I first visited and saw people on their knees in repentance after the sermon, I cried tears of joy, knowing I was home.

And I cried more tears of joy when the pastor said he doesn't care about "filling seats", that he is there to preach the truth of God's Word. :cry:
That's awesome...i wish i could find a church like that...

VerticalReality
May 9th 2007, 02:36 PM
That's awesome...i wish i could find a church like that...

They are out there. Unfortunately, it seems they are few and far between these days.

Jemma Ash
May 9th 2007, 03:10 PM
They are out there. Unfortunately, it seems they are few and far between these days.
that is true...my dad's church is okay but they all typical old brits...very set in their ways...so getting them to where they should be is gonna be a really great challenge...

ravi4u2
May 9th 2007, 04:19 PM
I guess it troubles me that people still have to 'find' churches to belong to or to go to...We can be the Church wherever we are and I know that that has been in the mond of Christ...I guess the clergy-laity mindset has clouded the minds of people that they feel that they need a 'professional' to lead them.

Whispering Grace
May 9th 2007, 04:21 PM
I guess it troubles me that people still have to 'find' churches to belong to or to go to...We can be the Church wherever we are and I know that that has been in the mond of Christ...I guess the clergy-laity mindset has clouded the minds of people that they feel that they need a 'professional' to lead them.

Are you saying, then, that the organized churches in the New Testament are wrong?

Jemma Ash
May 9th 2007, 04:56 PM
I guess it troubles me that people still have to 'find' churches to belong to or to go to...We can be the Church wherever we are and I know that that has been in the mond of Christ...I guess the clergy-laity mindset has clouded the minds of people that they feel that they need a 'professional' to lead them.
are you saying that we don't need to go to church? Thats not right...church is there so that we can fellowship with other christians and learn more about our Lord...

Ninna
May 9th 2007, 06:42 PM
Are you saying, then, that the organized churches in the New Testament are wrong?

When I read the book of Acts, I see a very different church than what I see today. I see believers gathered together daily (from house to house) in fellowship, being taught, praying and worshipping and then going out to the lost.

What I see today is the lost in the church building along with believers. That in itself can affect the prayer, praise and worship. (have we had this conversation before?:lol: )

Sold Out
May 9th 2007, 06:45 PM
When I read the book of Acts, I see a very different church than what I see today. I see believers gathered together daily (from house to house) in fellowship, being taught, praying and worshipping and then going out to the lost.

What I see today is the lost in the church building along with believers. That in itself can affect the prayer, praise and worship. (have we had this conversation before?:lol: )

Do you attend and serve in a local church?

VerticalReality
May 9th 2007, 06:50 PM
When I read the book of Acts, I see a very different church than what I see today. I see believers gathered together daily (from house to house) in fellowship, being taught, praying and worshipping and then going out to the lost.

What I see today is the lost in the church building along with believers. That in itself can affect the prayer, praise and worship. (have we had this conversation before?:lol: )

Paul tells us in Corinthians that unbelievers coming into the church is common practice. That is why he was giving instruction on the proper use of the gift of tongues in chapter 14.

Ninna
May 9th 2007, 06:54 PM
Do you attend and serve in a local church?

Yes I do .

deaconrick
May 9th 2007, 11:11 PM
I guess it troubles me that people still have to 'find' churches to belong to or to go to...We can be the Church wherever we are and I know that that has been in the mond of Christ...I guess the clergy-laity mindset has clouded the minds of people that they feel that they need a 'professional' to lead them.
It would trouble me to have a laity led church. It's not like anyone can be a preacher. Anyone can witness, but few are called to ministry. Training is important. A minister needs to know how to correctly interpret scripture in order to avoid heresy.

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 01:59 AM
Are you saying, then, that the organized churches in the New Testament are wrong?
There is no Church as an organization in the Word of God. The Body, the Ecclesia was, is and will always be an organization.

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 02:02 AM
are you saying that we don't need to go to church? Thats not right...church is there so that we can fellowship with other christians and learn more about our Lord...
Go to church - No
Fellowship with other Christians - yes
learn more about the Lord - Yes

Don't 'go' to church just to be a spectator but I guess what I am trying to say is 'be' the Church.

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 02:12 AM
It would trouble me to have a laity led church. It's not like anyone can be a preacher. Anyone can witness, but few are called to ministry. Training is important. A minister needs to know how to correctly interpret scripture in order to avoid heresy.
Where did you even find 'laity' in the Word? Everyone is called to ministry...'royal priesthood, holy nation...' remember? Are we forgetting the promise of the New? Just in case, I post it here: Hebrews 8:11 - "And it will nevermore be necessary for each one to teach his neighbor and his fellow citizen or each one his brother, saying, Know (perceive, have knowledge of, and get acquainted by experience with) the Lord, for all will know Me, from the smallest to the greatest of them." Anyway what does it mean to minister? It means to serve or to be a servant. I hope no one would have trouble being a NT Church.:bounce:

rejected stone
May 10th 2007, 02:12 AM
2 Timothy
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.
4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 02:28 AM
Paul tells us in Corinthians that unbelievers coming into the church is common practice. That is why he was giving instruction on the proper use of the gift of tongues in chapter 14.
Of course, even the unbelievers were invited to the hospitality and Life available in the koinonia (fellowship) of His disciples.

ravi4u2
May 10th 2007, 02:31 AM
2 Timothy
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teacher having itching ears.
4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Psalms 118:22 & 23 - The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.



Although I have read this portion of scripture numerous times, just the other day it struck me differently. "The stone the builders rejected..." The builders have always rejected this Stone. But why would they reject this Stone? Was not this the most precious Stone? Would this very Stone not have given the builders the kind of stability and value to what they were building, as no other stone could have provided?



The builders had to reject this Stone as this Stone will not allow anyone to build using it; for the Stone was the Builder Himself. This was the Living Stone. Anyone interested in building anything is repulsed by this stone for this Stone conforms to the imagination of no man. This stone has a will of His own.




This was a Stone that was so sharp that whosoever even falls on Him, will be broken to pieces. For this reason, even to this day, the pharisees, the religious leaders and all builders, discerning that this Stone is against them, have rejected Him. They seek an opportunity to ensnare this Stone and even to kill Him, for they have perceived that this Stone is against them.



This Stone from time past, has chosen other living stones like Himself. Other stones that transformed to be like the Living when they acknowledged that there is salvation in no other except in this Stone. And this Living Stone has now snatched the Kingdom from the hands of the pharisees, the religious leaders and all builders; and have given it to the others who have become like Him. Now these builders seek to ensnare and destroy those that have become like Him.



I hear the Spirit saying, "EXCEPT THE Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it;" While those who now try to build, labor in vain, this Ancient Stone now builds the House, His House; And His House is marvelous in our eyes.

Isaiah66:9-10
May 28th 2007, 06:24 AM
Psalms 118:22 & 23 - The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.



Although I have read this portion of scripture numerous times, just the other day it struck me differently. "The stone the builders rejected..." The builders have always rejected this Stone. But why would they reject this Stone? Was not this the most precious Stone? Would this very Stone not have given the builders the kind of stability and value to what they were building, as no other stone could have provided?



The builders had to reject this Stone as this Stone will not allow anyone to build using it; for the Stone was the Builder Himself. This was the Living Stone. Anyone interested in building anything is repulsed by this stone for this Stone conforms to the imagination of no man. This stone has a will of His own.




This was a Stone that was so sharp that whosoever even falls on Him, will be broken to pieces. For this reason, even to this day, the pharisees, the religious leaders and all builders, discerning that this Stone is against them, have rejected Him. They seek an opportunity to ensnare this Stone and even to kill Him, for they have perceived that this Stone is against them.



This Stone from time past, has chosen other living stones like Himself. Other stones that transformed to be like the Living when they acknowledged that there is salvation in no other except in this Stone. And this Living Stone has now snatched the Kingdom from the hands of the pharisees, the religious leaders and all builders; and have given it to the others who have become like Him. Now these builders seek to ensnare and destroy those that have become like Him.



I hear the Spirit saying, "EXCEPT THE Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it;" While those who now try to build, labor in vain, this Ancient Stone now builds the House, His House; And His House is marvelous in our eyes.

Has He finished building the house?

ravi4u2
May 29th 2007, 02:23 AM
Has He finished building the house?He is still building me...that's for sure...

Isaiah66:9-10
May 31st 2007, 05:10 AM
He is still building me...that's for sure...

He is still building. I feel but a shabby piece of that, yet He assures me it is all strong ... every piece! I think He wants us to figure out that all the pieces fit together ... some don't seem like they should, but they do.

ravi4u2
May 31st 2007, 05:15 AM
There is no Church as an organization in the Word of God. The Body, the Ecclesia was, is and will always be an organization.
The Body of Christ was, is and always will be a living organism.

BlessedMan
May 31st 2007, 05:43 AM
I actually do not think people are getting less meaningful teaching. If Christianity is morphing a little around theedges, it has always been like that. The books of the new testament were written in the first few centuries after Christ's death and it composes mostly of what St. Jerome had available to him when he was translating from Greek and Hebrew into Latin in about 350AD. Even then he left a lot of stuff out. If I had been around then ministering and writing about the miracle of Christ I imagine there would be the Book of the BlessedMan in the Bible.

jiggyfly
May 31st 2007, 11:20 AM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?

This is the role of the clergy/laity system, which is man-made and anti-christ. I don't think it is real milk either, it might have some simularities or maybe even a very small trace of milk in it but it has been poisoned. Jesus does in fact have a spokesperson but His name is not pastor so~and~so, it is HolySpirit.

Monster_user
May 31st 2007, 11:30 AM
Poisoned, but not so badly so, that the Lord cannot teach through them, if his people will only hear.

For surely the Holy Spirit is at work, even in such a place. For the Holy Spirit dwells not in the building, or in the Minister, or Pastor, but in the hearts of the saints, the believers, who seek the truth, the holy word of the Lord.

However, it is like the parable of the seeds. They must be planted in fertile soil. That soil must be tended, and the land must be cared for.

So it does trouble me that more churches are "watered down". Yet how can I be frustrated when the Lord has seen fit to guide me, even within the constraints of this worldly system.

Let us pray for our fellow believers, that they may receive as we have received, and not be poisoned by watered down belief systems, designed to attract the masses. For the gates of heaven are narrow, and only a few shall pass...

jiggyfly
May 31st 2007, 12:16 PM
Poisoned, but not so badly so, that the Lord cannot teach through them, if his people will only hear.

For surely the Holy Spirit is at work, even in such a place. For the Holy Spirit dwells not in the building, or in the Minister, or Pastor, but in the hearts of the saints, the believers, who seek the truth, the holy word of the Lord.

However, it is like the parable of the seeds. They must be planted in fertile soil. That soil must be tended, and the land must be cared for.

So it does trouble me that more churches are "watered down". Yet how can I be frustrated when the Lord has seen fit to guide me, even within the constraints of this worldly system.

Let us pray for our fellow believers, that they may receive as we have received, and not be poisoned by watered down belief systems, designed to attract the masses. For the gates of heaven are narrow, and only a few shall pass...

I agree with you on your concern for others and to pray for them, but because someone in a church service calls out to God and He answers does not lend credibility to that church no more than if someone calls out to God in a bar or a crack house and He answers.

Monster_user
May 31st 2007, 12:39 PM
You speak the truth brother.

Yet I tell you, Jesus even would go unto the crack house to preach. It is not the building, nor its temporary leader, but the fellowship of believers, that is important. For if a church has poor leadership, then they should wake up, and change that leadership.

If they do not, then they are asleep. I pray that not all of our brothers, and sisters are asleep at this hour!

ravi4u2
Jun 1st 2007, 05:17 PM
You speak the truth brother.

Yet I tell you, Jesus even would go unto the crack house to preach. It is not the building, nor its temporary leader, but the fellowship of believers, that is important. For if a church has poor leadership, then they should wake up, and change that leadership.

If they do not, then they are asleep. I pray that not all of our brothers, and sisters are asleep at this hour!The Spirit has kept the Torch of the Testimony burning outside man made traditions, rules and regulations, through the ages.

jiggyfly
Jun 1st 2007, 08:22 PM
The Spirit has kept the Torch of the Testimony burning outside man made traditions, rules and regulations, through the ages.
So true, it has been through a remnant of overcomers, down through the ages. Their not famous or well liked by most but they were, are, and will be living testimonies and credible witnesses to the preeminence of Christ.

Monster_user
Jun 2nd 2007, 07:39 AM
The Spirit has kept the Torch of the Testimony burning outside man made traditions, rules and regulations, through the ages.
Wise...
The timing here is very interesting. I have been going to Church less and less, and spending more time reflecting on the word. After private study.

I have felt that the Lord was leading me this way. Not having a set of Church guidelines to fall back on, means that I must rely on the leadership of the Lord even more.

jiggyfly
Jun 2nd 2007, 10:13 AM
Wise...
The timing here is very interesting. I have been going to Church less and less, and spending more time reflecting on the word. After private study.

I have felt that the Lord was leading me this way. Not having a set of Church guidelines to fall back on, means that I must rely on the leadership of the Lord even more.

This is true discipleship, Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of Him not disciples of themselves. We need felloeship too but I have found I have more meaningful fellowship outside of the limiting confines of the religious institution's meetings. God bless you

ravi4u2
Jun 8th 2007, 10:12 PM
His Body is not about meetings and meetings more abundantly...

Levi67
Jun 9th 2007, 12:18 AM
Going to church doesn't mean one must follow everything that is laid out there.

For me, church is a very personal experience. I play drums on the worship team, and that is a great time between myself and the Lord. I used to play drums professionally, but that was when I was also leading a very sinful life.

I took a ten-year break, changed my life around completely, and only when I was totally free of the Devils' influence did the Lord give me chance to play again. Play for His glory and delight in the gift He gave me.

The pastor in my church is young and inexperienced; he lacks oratory skills and he has had a very sheltered life. I have trouble following him devotedly, so I take his idea for the sermon and spend the time reflecting and reading within myself.

I'm rambling here, but the bottom line is that church is a good place to go a worship. It isn't a deciding factor in the character of a true Christian, but it shows service that you make an effort to go and praise Him with your family. It's His day. Go for the food, stay for the reflection. ;)

ravi4u2
Jun 9th 2007, 07:21 AM
but the bottom line is that church is a good place to go a worshipI like your thoughts and appreciate your turning to the Lord...But...the new covenant is not about going somewhere to worship...In the new, we now become the Temple...as the God we worship is Immanuel...

Monster_user
Jun 9th 2007, 07:45 AM
Go for the food!?
You mean there are Churches that provide food on Sunday?

The churches I went to only provided food for Wednesday bible study, and choir practice. It was a $3 buck public school luncheon anyway. So it wasn't free, and it wasn't all that good. So few actually went there for the food.

The money was for projects, and all these other things that Churches raise money for. So people signed up to support the Church, and its ministry. Plus the food was not horrible...

That said, some Churches did have a "pot luck supper". Where several members, or almost all, brought their own food to share. Good eatin'!

Jemma Ash
Jun 9th 2007, 07:49 AM
i think by food the poster meant the preaching...you know...Jesus is the bread of life etc?

Monster_user
Jun 9th 2007, 07:54 AM
Yeah.

I think I'm just tired.

ravi4u2
Jun 9th 2007, 03:03 PM
i think by food the poster meant the preaching...you know...Jesus is the bread of life etc?
Hebrews 8...The Spirit will teach us all things...the Sunday morning sermon by the pastor is a poor substitute for the revealing of the HS...

Monster_user
Jun 10th 2007, 10:17 AM
Hebrews 8...The Spirit will teach us all things...the Sunday morning sermon by the pastor is a poor substitute for the revealing of the HS...

But the Holy Spirit is not a fellowship of believers. A Christian needs this to survive.

Jemma Ash
Jun 10th 2007, 11:46 AM
beleive me when i say we cannot survive without fellowship...i am struggling enormously at the moment as i have moved to a new country and have no friends my age here...the church is not a young church...i am struggling...i need christian fellowship with my age group...

ravi4u2
Jun 10th 2007, 07:07 PM
But the Holy Spirit is not a fellowship of believers. A Christian needs this to survive.We need the fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit to survive...But that does not negate the need to fellowship with one another...but we don't need to belong to any 'club' to fellowship...fellowship with His people happens as we fellowship with our God...

ravi4u2
Jun 10th 2007, 07:09 PM
beleive me when i say we cannot survive without fellowship...i am struggling enormously at the moment as i have moved to a new country and have no friends my age here...the church is not a young church...i am struggling...i need christian fellowship with my age group...Just live Christ...just lift Him up...and He will draw life-minded people to you...you won't have to seek them out...

SDG
Jun 10th 2007, 08:20 PM
Fellowship with other believers is essential. Although God's Word is certainly spiritually discerned, we need to remain with other believers as well, encouraging and admonishing one another.

Believe me, I fell out of consistent fellowship for a period of time, and it nearly brought an end to my faith. God brought me back from the brink, I believe, but it's not a road worth chosing. Thankfully, God is gracious. It's not wise to tempt Him though, as I've learned the wrong way. I've suffered earthly consequences for my sins, yet nothing compared to what I truly deserve. More importantly, my choices of the past have grieved our God as sins against Him, and that is something I do not want to do, and I hope to avoid, by God's grace.

That in consideration, being amongst believers here is one form of fellowship. :) So I'd like to thank those here for that, and above all praise God for it.

jiggyfly
Jun 10th 2007, 09:21 PM
Fellowship with other believers is essential. Although God's Word is certainly spiritually discerned, we need to remain with other believers as well, encouraging and admonishing one another.

Believe me, I fell out of consistent fellowship for a period of time, and it nearly brought an end to my faith. God brought me back from the brink, I believe, but it's not a road worth chosing. Thankfully, God is gracious. It's not wise to tempt Him though, as I've learned the wrong way. I've suffered earthly consequences for my sins, yet nothing compared to what I truly deserve. More importantly, my choices of the past have grieved our God as sins against Him, and that is something I do not want to do, and I hope to avoid, by God's grace.

That in consideration, being amongst believers here is one form of fellowship. :) So I'd like to thank those here for that, and above all praise God for it.

I like fellowship with the family of God also but there are seasons for everything. Sometimes we forget that Paul went to Arabia and spent a couple of years where there were no believers and John was on Patmos for a year with fellowship with other believers, and both of them came away from their time alone with the Lord, with astounding revelations. felowship with others is good but not at the sacrifice of less time with the Lord.

SDG
Jun 10th 2007, 09:26 PM
I like fellowship with the family of God also but there are seasons for everything. Sometimes we forget that Paul went to Arabia and spent a couple of years where there were no believers and John was on Patmos for a year with fellowship with other believers, and both of them came away from their time alone with the Lord, with astounding revelations. felowship with others is good but not at the sacrifice of less time with the Lord.

True, and there is a time and season for both. What I was more or less referring to was simply shirking that fellowship with other Christians.

Your point is quite right though, we do need to spend more time with the Lord.

jiggyfly
Jun 10th 2007, 09:53 PM
True, and there is a time and season for both. What I was more or less referring to was simply shirking that fellowship with other Christians.

Your point is quite right though, we do need to spend more time with the Lord.
Yes that too can be trouble but I think most christians are confused about what it means to have fellowship with other believers. Many think that it must take place within the religious institution's liturgic meetings. I stopped participating in the religious institution's meetings years ago but I have found very meaningful and nourishing fellowship on a regular basis.

Jemma Ash
Jun 10th 2007, 09:59 PM
I personally don't like going to a church who still use routine (for want of a better word) and liturgies. We went to a anglican church down the road and i felt like i was back at the catholic school i had gone to for two years (for a decent education...good two years).

My dad said something the other day, what churches have done now is substitute the liturgies with the emotion and experience of worship. Yes we must worship but it must not be more important than the word. And we deffinately do need to go to church, the church is the body of Christ, we need to fellowship with believers, we need to gather together to worship God and to here his Word!

ravi4u2
Jun 11th 2007, 04:01 AM
I personally don't like going to a church who still use routine (for want of a better word) and liturgies. We went to a anglican church down the road and i felt like i was back at the catholic school i had gone to for two years (for a decent education...good two years).

My dad said something the other day, what churches have done now is substitute the liturgies with the emotion and experience of worship. Yes we must worship but it must not be more important than the word. And we deffinately do need to go to church, the church is the body of Christ, we need to fellowship with believers, we need to gather together to worship God and to here his Word!There is a book Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola which will be nice read if you are interested.

Jemma Ash
Jun 11th 2007, 07:43 AM
That was uncalled for! Where did you get that idea from?

Sold Out
Jun 11th 2007, 12:49 PM
beleive me when i say we cannot survive without fellowship...i am struggling enormously at the moment as i have moved to a new country and have no friends my age here...the church is not a young church...i am struggling...i need christian fellowship with my age group...

Until you find more Christians in your age group, draw on the knowledge & experience of older Christians. You can still grow this way.

Jemma Ash
Jun 11th 2007, 02:59 PM
thanks...i am doing...i am staying with my dad's church coz he is a good teacher...and i am getting a lot out of what he says...most of which i have been using on here...i am happy there...but when i go to varsity i hope to find a decent church...

rejected stone
Jun 11th 2007, 07:44 PM
Greetings:

I just wanted to add what a 'blessing' this thread and others like it are for me.

I live in an area of the 'so-called Bible Belt' which is actually a 'spiritual desert'. Even the mere discussion of these issues is implicitly forbidden. Any attempt to state the position that we should still 'honor God' by willingly following his commandments results in an organized 'conspiracy' of ostracism.

I have felt like the 'Lone-Ranger' for several years now.

Even the 'worst barbs' I sometimes read between disagreeing members here seem like 'powder-puffs' or a 'pillow-fight' in comparison to the 'bullets' and 'daggers in the back' I have experienced here from the so-called local 'ministry'!

Keep it up!

May God richly bless you all

Sold Out
Jun 12th 2007, 12:36 PM
Greetings:

I just wanted to add what a 'blessing' this thread and others like it are for me.

I live in an area of the 'so-called Bible Belt' which is actually a 'spiritual desert'. Even the mere discussion of these issues is implicitly forbidden. Any attempt to state the position that we should still 'honor God' by willingly following his commandments results in an organized 'conspiracy' of ostracism.

I have felt like the 'Lone-Ranger' for several years now.

Even the 'worst barbs' I sometimes read between disagreeing members here seem like 'powder-puffs' or a 'pillow-fight' in comparison to the 'bullets' and 'daggers in the back' I have experienced here from the so-called local 'ministry'!

Keep it up!

May God richly bless you all

I love this post. I never did realize how living in the bible belt is more of 'don't question anything', rather than 'study to show thyself approved'.

ElBob
Jun 12th 2007, 05:22 PM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?

Yes, in a way I agree. It is like Church attendees get their hand held when they come in, spoon fed while they are there, and burped on their way out.

The only thing I might differ on is putting all the blame on the pastors. You can feed (as in force feeding, or involuntary feeding, tube feeding) liquids, but you can't force people to eat meat. They get choked on it.

I feel, most are immature by their own doing, not desiring the Word, even in milk form. I’ve seen this happen in all congregations. There are varying levels of spiritual maturity, though the diet (sermons) is exactly the same.

1 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking,
2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,
3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious. (1 Peter 2)

Maybe there is no desire for meat because there has been no desire for the milk?

justsurfing
Jun 12th 2007, 10:52 PM
There's a definite call to just "love"... like it is not necessary to know the Word and be transformed by the Word to love others. Kind of like, we can just "love" in our own power. And it's the dumbing down of the church. :)

God is Love.

We never could love out of our own selves in our own ways. We need to know God and be changed.

We need to know the Bible.

Jesus said that if we continued in the Word we would know the truth and be set free.

Nowadays, people think we're "set free" FROM knowing the Word!!! (Don't talk about sound doctrine - just dumb down!!! And, somehow, just love by not knowing.)

lol

Dumbing down is not a positive move, imo.

deaconrick
Jun 13th 2007, 01:55 AM
I agree that the understanding of scripture is led by the Holy Spirit. But one must also test the spirits that are leading you. Is what you are hearing being given by the Holy Spirit or another spirit? The only way to know is to be well founded in scripture and to learn right doctrine. And the only place to learn that is in a good solid Biblically-based based church that teaches right doctrine. As Christians, we all need to be apologists for the faith. Learn scripture, learn doctrine, be able to defend doctrine using scripture. This our commission - Matthew 28:18-20.

jiggyfly
Jun 13th 2007, 10:48 AM
I agree that the understanding of scripture is led by the Holy Spirit. But one must also test the spirits that are leading you. Is what you are hearing being given by the Holy Spirit or another spirit? The only way to know is to be well founded in scripture and to learn right doctrine. And the only place to learn that is in a good solid Biblically-based based church that teaches right doctrine. As Christians, we all need to be apologists for the faith. Learn scripture, learn doctrine, be able to defend doctrine using scripture. This our commission - Matthew 28:18-20.

Is this the same way that one comes to know Jesus??? I say the best way to know someone is by spending time with them.

deaconrick
Jun 13th 2007, 12:41 PM
Coming to know Jesus is not the same as growing in your faith. Having faith is the first step in a (hopefully) long journey. Because you believe something has been revealed to you only means that you need to test what you've learned based on scripture. If it does not agree with scripture then you must challenge what you learned.

One cand come to know Jesus through going to church, and this is also PART of how we grow in Him. Fellowship and right teaching are essential in preventing a Christian from being decieved by Satan.

jiggyfly
Jun 13th 2007, 12:59 PM
Coming to know Jesus is not the same as growing in your faith. Having faith is the first step in a (hopefully) long journey. Because you believe something has been revealed to you only means that you need to test what you've learned based on scripture. If it does not agree with scripture then you must challenge what you learned.

One cand come to know Jesus through going to church, and this is also PART of how we grow in Him. Fellowship and right teaching are essential in preventing a Christian from being decieved by Satan.

On this we difinitely do not agree. Knowing about someone is not the same as knowing them.

Sold Out
Jun 13th 2007, 01:20 PM
I think the point Deaconrick is making is that at the moment of salvation, you enter into that relationship with Christ. After that you should grow in the Word & doctrine.

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workmen that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

I do not want to stand before my Savior one day and be ashamed for growing and using my gifts/knowledge to reach other people for Him.

deaconrick
Jun 13th 2007, 10:48 PM
On this we difinitely do not agree. Knowing about someone is not the same as knowing them.
You're right, knowing about and knowing someone are two different things. That is a separate issue. But what we hear whispered in to our ears can be from any spriit. If we don't know what right doctrine is we can make all sorts of mistakes. To deny this is to deny the activity of the evil one.

jiggyfly
Jun 13th 2007, 11:28 PM
You're right, knowing about and knowing someone are two different things. That is a separate issue. But what we hear whispered in to our ears can be from any spriit. If we don't know what right doctrine is we can make all sorts of mistakes. To deny this is to deny the activity of the evil one.
Now this I can agree with, and the Spirit is our teacher of all things. The spiritual gift of discerning of spirits is what will help us to identify what spirit is behind that whisper.

walked
Jun 28th 2007, 03:42 PM
It is frustrating, and I encourage the congregation of the church I go to, to get into the Word! Don't take my word for it, you need to know whether I'm telling the truth or not. Don't listen the the man speaking, listen to HIM!

Amen ! depend on the Blood of Christ for your salvation and live your life on Earth by what God has taught to you so far in scripture....dont depend on your pastor or church for your salvation

sheina maidle
Jun 28th 2007, 09:09 PM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?
I see this as a fulfillment of 2 Timothy 4:2-4:

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:2-4)

With the "seeker sensitive" churches popping up all over, it is not surprising that Christians aren't growing "spiritually" and remaining "babes". It seems that the "feel good" gospel is more popular than the "sincere milk of the Word" (1 Peter 2:2). Whatever happened to the "fear of the LORD"?

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)

deaconrick
Jun 28th 2007, 09:33 PM
Amen and amen. When people tell me they don't want to deal with "doctrine," I figure they don't want to be told that they could be wrong about what they believe. God has given us scholars and theologians to help us interpret scripture.

I have always wondered, if someone claims God has taught them that something is right, and then someone else claims God taught them something that contradicts the first, who's right? God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He cannot contradict Himself. Both can't be right, but htey both believe that they are and are equally convinced the other is wrong. How does this get resolved?

In my mind, we have to go to the Church Fathers, theologians and sincere Christian scholars to determine how to properly interpret the Bible.

sheina maidle
Jun 30th 2007, 04:31 AM
I have always wondered, if someone claims God has taught them that something is right, and then someone else claims God taught them something that contradicts the first, who's right? God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He cannot contradict Himself. Both can't be right, but htey both believe that they are and are equally convinced the other is wrong. How does this get resolved?

In my mind, we have to go to the Church Fathers, theologians and sincere Christian scholars to determine how to properly interpret the Bible.
You are absolutely correct, God cannot contradict Himself and both people can't be right. I believe that if someone claims God has taught them something that is right, I would ask that person how he KNOWS that "something" is right. Ask them to back up up that "something" with Scriptures. If they can't, then I would question whether or not it was God Who taught them. God's Word will prevail in situations such as you described. We are responsible for checking these "claims" with Scriptures ourselves. We need to biblical Bereans (Acts 17:11).

Because the Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer, it is the Holy Spirit Who will interpret the Bible.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Centurionoflight
Jul 6th 2007, 05:07 PM
deaconrick



In my mind, we have to go to the Church Fathers, theologians and sincere Christian scholars to determine how to properly interpret the Bible.



Why not turn to the bible it self rather than some "sincere man" or "Church father".

Acts 17:11


These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Sold Out
Jul 6th 2007, 06:02 PM
You are absolutely correct, God cannot contradict Himself and both people can't be right. I believe that if someone claims God has taught them something that is right, I would ask that person how he KNOWS that "something" is right. Ask them to back up up that "something" with Scriptures. If they can't, then I would question whether or not it was God Who taught them. God's Word will prevail in situations such as you described. We are responsible for checking these "claims" with Scriptures ourselves. We need to biblical Bereans (Acts 17:11).

Because the Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer, it is the Holy Spirit Who will interpret the Bible.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

Scripture is always the measuring rod. I agree.

deaconrick
Jul 6th 2007, 07:47 PM
deaconrick



Why not turn to the bible it self rather than some "sincere man" or "Church father".


Acts 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


I agree. But Scripture is not clear on every issue. That's why we have different denominations. My personal belief is that looking at the early church can give us clues as to what is meant, as they were certainly closer to the actual events of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection than we certainly are. The very earliest church fathers likely learned from John the Apostle himself. BTW, I am not Catholic, so I don't mean that we should look at that church. I believe (again, my personal belief) they went off base at some point as well.

pianoart
Jul 6th 2007, 08:02 PM
After coming out of the cults several yrs ago, it took me a long time to find a church where I could be comfortable. Had LOTS of old tapes still playing in my head. Took a long time to accept certain doctrines like the trinity, and still a little uncomfortable with certain teachings like the second coming, but all I'm doing right now is reaching out in faith. Have found an Independent Baptist Church where the message is not watered down. Lots of solid biblical teachings which I REALLY need to hear. Attended large non denominational churches with "feel good" preaching. Not what I needed. Attended pentecostal churches and played piano for them for a few years. Could never accept the emotionalism and found myself going thru the motions. Thank God for His patience. The music at our church is ALL taken thru the hymnals. The only musician we have is a young guitarist who plays a few chords. Will be getting baptized in a few weeks and, if it be God's will, I will be able to use my gift of music (piano) to further lift up His name. :)

Centurionoflight
Jul 6th 2007, 08:40 PM
deaconrick



I agree. But Scripture is not clear on every issue. That's why we have different denominations. My personal belief is that looking at the early church can give us clues as to what is meant, as they were certainly closer to the actual events of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection than we certainly are. The very earliest church fathers likely learned from John the Apostle himself. BTW, I am not Catholic, so I don't mean that we should look at that church. I believe (again, my personal belief) they went off base at some point as well.


Scripture is very clear on the issues; however there is many false teachers who have legalism, human view point and pride. These human view points will distort truth.

We should focus on truth alone, this is in scripture alone. IF we focus on church fathers; then our focus is not on truth.

If any thing scripture shows what a bag of nut balls that filled the early church. {Corinth church}, the last thing we should do is look to the early church "fathers" as some example that we should copy.

C0841
Jul 7th 2007, 10:38 AM
Amen!!!

When confronted with the fact that we MUST study the word OURSELVES, I literally heard a man say, "That's what we pay the pastor for". I fear that too many people in this day and age feel this way.

AliveinChristDave
Jul 7th 2007, 05:22 PM
I agree. But Scripture is not clear on every issue. That's why we have different denominations. My personal belief is that looking at the early church can give us clues as to what is meant, as they were certainly closer to the actual events of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection than we certainly are. The very earliest church fathers likely learned from John the Apostle himself. BTW, I am not Catholic, so I don't mean that we should look at that church. I believe (again, my personal belief) they went off base at some point as well.

Church "fathers" made the mess we're in today. You will never come back to truth with those who led you away from it.
If I believed the Scriptures was not clear on every issue, I'd throw my bible away.
Paul taught in I Corinthians that even as prophets taught we were to judge what they say.
The Word of God is profitable for doctine, not some man of the cloth.

deaconrick
Jul 8th 2007, 10:28 PM
Church "fathers" made the mess we're in today. You will never come back to truth with those who led you away from it.
If I believed the Scriptures was not clear on every issue, I'd throw my bible away.
Paul taught in I Corinthians that even as prophets taught we were to judge what they say.
The Word of God is profitable for doctine, not some man of the cloth.
If you really believe the Bible is clear on everything, then please explain why there are so many different beliefs, even among the same denomination. There are several types of Baptist, several Lutherans, different Catholics, and you never know what you're going to get in a non-denom church. And who among us has the right to judge who has the correct interpretation? All you can do is go with what YOU BELIEVE to be the closest. You may or MAY NOT be right.

I will not delude myself into believing that the Bible is clear on everything. It is clear on salvation issues (Trinity, divinity of Jesus, faith alone, etc), the rest (just about everything else) is open to interpretation with our feeble human-limited minds.

God did not reveal ALL to us, only a limited amount of information, but enough to know the way to salvation.

jiggyfly
Jul 11th 2007, 12:15 PM
If you really believe the Bible is clear on everything, then please explain why there are so many different beliefs, even among the same denomination. There are several types of Baptist, several Lutherans, different Catholics, and you never know what you're going to get in a non-denom church. And who among us has the right to judge who has the correct interpretation? All you can do is go with what YOU BELIEVE to be the closest. You may or MAY NOT be right.

I will not delude myself into believing that the Bible is clear on everything. It is clear on salvation issues (Trinity, divinity of Jesus, faith alone, etc), the rest (just about everything else) is open to interpretation with our feeble human-limited minds.

God did not reveal ALL to us, only a limited amount of information, but enough to know the way to salvation.

John 16:5-15
5“But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and none of you has asked me where I am going. 6 Instead, you are very sad. 7 But it is actually best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Counselor* won’t come. If I do go away, he will come because I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me. 10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11 Judgment will come because the prince of this world has already been judged.
12 “Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14 He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. 15 All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

I agree that the bible is not a complete source for guidance, but it is a very clear testimony of the new covenant and of Jesus the Christ. Throughout the new testament we find the instruction to be led by HolySpirit. God has not intended the scriptures to be a leading force to the body of Christ but rather a testimony to the leading force, the HolySpirit and to the lordship of Jesus. The scriptures very clearly express the Godhead's character.

The answer to your question about why we have so many different denominations and doctrines is simple, carnality, men have employed their carnal mindset to understanding God's plan and will rather than allowing the HolySpirit to lead them into all truth. This is why John the Baptist preached "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". Repent in this statement does not mean "to become sorry" or "to turn from sin" it means "change your mindset" or "change the way you think". As we can see in the report of the Gospels they struggled with this then and we can see that the same struggle exists today. The christian religious institution is a product of this failure to "change the way we think", humbling ourselves and allowing the Spirit to lead us.

Sold Out
Jul 11th 2007, 12:22 PM
If you really believe the Bible is clear on everything, then please explain why there are so many different beliefs, even among the same denomination. There are several types of Baptist, several Lutherans, different Catholics, and you never know what you're going to get in a non-denom church. And who among us has the right to judge who has the correct interpretation? All you can do is go with what YOU BELIEVE to be the closest. You may or MAY NOT be right.

I will not delude myself into believing that the Bible is clear on everything. It is clear on salvation issues (Trinity, divinity of Jesus, faith alone, etc), the rest (just about everything else) is open to interpretation with our feeble human-limited minds.

God did not reveal ALL to us, only a limited amount of information, but enough to know the way to salvation.

A good rule of thumb to use is this:

Unity in the essentials (salvation), liberty in the non-essentials (secondary doctrinces), and charity for all.

deaconrick
Jul 12th 2007, 06:31 PM
John 16:5-15
5“But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and none of you has asked me where I am going. 6 Instead, you are very sad. 7 But it is actually best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Counselor* won’t come. If I do go away, he will come because I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me. 10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11 Judgment will come because the prince of this world has already been judged.
12 “Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14 He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. 15 All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

I agree that the bible is not a complete source for guidance, but it is a very clear testimony of the new covenant and of Jesus the Christ. Throughout the new testament we find the instruction to be led by HolySpirit. God has not intended the scriptures to be a leading force to the body of Christ but rather a testimony to the leading force, the HolySpirit and to the lordship of Jesus. The scriptures very clearly express the Godhead's character.

The answer to your question about why we have so many different denominations and doctrines is simple, carnality, men have employed their carnal mindset to understanding God's plan and will rather than allowing the HolySpirit to lead them into all truth. This is why John the Baptist preached "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". Repent in this statement does not mean "to become sorry" or "to turn from sin" it means "change your mindset" or "change the way you think". As we can see in the report of the Gospels they struggled with this then and we can see that the same struggle exists today. The christian religious institution is a product of this failure to "change the way we think", humbling ourselves and allowing the Spirit to lead us.

I don't disagree with what you have said. I am merely stating that we need to be careful, as we can believe the Spirit is guiding us when it may be our own sinful nature, or the evil one. I get especially concerned when someone comes up with a "new interpretation" that goes counter to what historic Christianity has believed.

jiggyfly
Jul 12th 2007, 07:49 PM
I don't disagree with what you have said. I am merely stating that we need to be careful, as we can believe the Spirit is guiding us when it may be our own sinful nature, or the evil one. I get especially concerned when someone comes up with a "new interpretation" that goes counter to what historic Christianity has believed.

And unfortunately it happens and historical christianity is the proof of this, just look at catholicism. I was just @ a Lutheran church for one of my goddaughter's baptism, she is 3 weeks old. They believe that we are born of the Spirit through water baptism and then they claim that sprinkling water on a baby's head is water baptism. I too, get freaked out by new enlightenment that is contrary to scripture, but much of historical christianity's doctrines were formed by "new interpretations", weren't they?

For many, scripture has become the foundation for the christian faith and it is sad. Our faith should be founded in our experience with Christ Jesus. The foundation that was laid by the apostles and prophets was not scripture, it was an invitation to experience a relationship with the Christ. He is the chief corner stone not sciptures. It is one thing to be familiar with the scriptures, which testify of Christ and totally another to know and experience intimacy with Christ.

Romans 8:16
For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we are God’s children.

Although the scriptures give testimony to HolySpirit, He is the one that validated the scriptures with signs and wonders. As we step out to follow Him, He will comfort us with scriptures to confirm and reaffirm. He, Himself must do the leading, not past testimony of Him leading someone else. If our faith is based on scripture rather than experience then all we have is a theology or a religious fantasy which lacks reality. Once you have experienced gravity it would be futile for me to try and convince you that it really doesn't exist. The same is true with God, we must have a real experience with Him and then allow our experience to grow. It really doesn't accomplish much to be the friend of a friend of God.

deaconrick
Jul 12th 2007, 09:30 PM
And unfortunately it happens and historical christianity is the proof of this, just look at catholicism. I was just @ a Lutheran church for one of my goddaughter's baptism, she is 3 weeks old. They believe that we are born of the Spirit through water baptism and then they claim that sprinkling water on a baby's head is water baptism. I too, get freaked out by new enlightenment that is contrary to scripture, but much of historical christianity's doctrines were formed by "new interpretations", weren't they?

For many, scripture has become the foundation for the christian faith and it is sad. Our faith should be founded in our experience with Christ Jesus. The foundation that was laid by the apostles and prophets was not scripture, it was an invitation to experience a relationship with the Christ. He is the chief corner stone not sciptures. It is one thing to be familiar with the scriptures, which testify of Christ and totally another to know and experience intimacy with Christ.

Romans 8:16
For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we are God’s children.

Although the scriptures give testimony to HolySpirit, He is the one that validated the scriptures with signs and wonders. As we step out to follow Him, He will comfort us with scriptures to confirm and reaffirm. He, Himself must do the leading, not past testimony of Him leading someone else. If our faith is based on scripture rather than experience then all we have is a theology or a religious fantasy which lacks reality. Once you have experienced gravity it would be futile for me to try and convince you that it really doesn't exist. The same is true with God, we must have a real experience with Him and then allow our experience to grow. It really doesn't accomplish much to be the friend of a friend of God.
You're barking up the wrong tree - I'm a deacon in the Lutheran church:D! I finad it difficult to deny the regenerative nature of baptism when youo deal with 1Peter 3:21, even in context of the surrounding passages. And when a belief that has been practiced for 1500 years (infant baptism) is all of a sudden changed by a"new enlightenmment." But that's a topic for another thread, not this one.

jiggyfly
Jul 13th 2007, 01:53 AM
You're barking up the wrong tree - I'm a deacon in the Lutheran church:D! I finad it difficult to deny the regenerative nature of baptism when youo deal with 1Peter 3:21, even in context of the surrounding passages. And when a belief that has been practiced for 1500 years (infant baptism) is all of a sudden changed by a"new enlightenmment." But that's a topic for another thread, not this one.

Imagine that, 1500 hundred years of religious practice changed all of a sudden. Kinda sounds familiar doesn't it? For centuries they sacrificed spotless lambs and then all of a sudden someone says "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Why lets just rough him up a little and run his little sacrilegious behind right out of town, and if that don't do it well if we have to we will just squash him like a bug!" Guess messing with religious folk can be very dangerous.:o


So do you believe that by practicing something for a long period justifies it? No offense but you are proving my point.

Why don't you start a thread about infant baptism, might be very interesting to get some other viewpoints?

deaconrick
Jul 13th 2007, 03:22 AM
Imagine that, 1500 hundred years of religious practice changed all of a sudden. Kinda sounds familiar doesn't it? For centuries they sacrificed spotless lambs and then all of a sudden someone says "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Why lets just rough him up a little and run his little sacrilegious behind right out of town, and if that don't do it well if we have to we will just squash him like a bug!" Guess messing with religious folk can be very dangerous.:o


So do you believe that by practicing something for a long period justifies it? No offense but you are proving my point.

Why don't you start a thread about infant baptism, might be very interesting to get some other viewpoints?
You are totally off base. There were periods when Israel practiced it's faith in God and was loyal to Him. They would then go off base and suffer the consequences. After the exile, the rabbis thought long and hard about what happened and why they lost God's favor, which is where all the rules came from. What was neded was to go back to what was practiced initially, which through Jesus Christ we are now doing. God does not care about sacrifice of money and circucision, but of the heart.

Laying on laws, as the Jews did in an attempt to "prevent" disobedience is not the answer. Modern Christianity does much the same - setting laws to mandate compliance. Too much of modern Chrisitanity is focused on the law, not the gospel. This is a sad state. Listen to your pastor. Is he focusing on what is right and wrong, or is he preaching the gospel in its pure form? Read the book God's No and God's Yes by CFW Walther. it is a great exposition on differentiating between law and gospel.

As for starting that thread - not a snowball's chance on Miami Beach:o! I've participated at other boards on similar topics and I am not interested in being called a heretic, a pagan, and a non Christian again because I did not have a "believer's baptism." I am firmly convinced that the Lutheran view on baptism is Biblically sound and I will not be moved from that position. My baptism was my parents' way of allowing God to give me the gift of faith. That is my firm conviction and I will not change my mind. So, no new thread by me, nor will I participate in one that is started. It's sad that this issue causes some people to become downright mean. I don't want to go through that again. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wore it out:lol:.

jiggyfly
Jul 13th 2007, 06:46 PM
You are totally off base. There were periods when Israel practiced it's faith in God and was loyal to Him. They would then go off base and suffer the consequences. After the exile, the rabbis thought long and hard about what happened and why they lost God's favor, which is where all the rules came from. What was neded was to go back to what was practiced initially, which through Jesus Christ we are now doing. God does not care about sacrifice of money and circucision, but of the heart.

Laying on laws, as the Jews did in an attempt to "prevent" disobedience is not the answer. Modern Christianity does much the same - setting laws to mandate compliance. Too much of modern Chrisitanity is focused on the law, not the gospel. This is a sad state. Listen to your pastor. Is he focusing on what is right and wrong, or is he preaching the gospel in its pure form? Read the book God's No and God's Yes by CFW Walther. it is a great exposition on differentiating between law and gospel.

As for starting that thread - not a snowball's chance on Miami Beach:o! I've participated at other boards on similar topics and I am not interested in being called a heretic, a pagan, and a non Christian again because I did not have a "believer's baptism." I am firmly convinced that the Lutheran view on baptism is Biblically sound and I will not be moved from that position. My baptism was my parents' way of allowing God to give me the gift of faith. That is my firm conviction and I will not change my mind. So, no new thread by me, nor will I participate in one that is started. It's sad that this issue causes some people to become downright mean. I don't want to go through that again. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wore it out:lol:.
It seems the point I was making flew right over your head undetected. FYI I no longer paricipate in the religious institution's system or liturgy. I have moved on from the practice of mere symbolism unto experiencing and living out the realities of Christ.

deaconrick
Jul 13th 2007, 08:47 PM
It seems the point I was making flew right over your head undetected. FYI I no longer paricipate in the religious institution's system or liturgy. I have moved on from the practice of mere symbolism unto experiencing and living out the realities of Christ.
If you do not experience the real presence of God in the practice of faith and in the liturgy, then you're not doing something right. Jesus is very present in the liturgy during worship service. He is present all week as well.

jiggyfly
Jul 13th 2007, 10:13 PM
If you do not experience the real presence of God in the practice of faith and in the liturgy, then you're not doing something right. Jesus is very present in the liturgy during worship service. He is present all week as well.

My point is I don't need liturgy of any kind to experience Jesus, He lives in me. I don't need religious liturgy or ceremony to experience Father because He tore the veil from top to bottom, that once seperated us from His presence. It seems you are assuming that because I don't go to a man-made religious meeting that I haven't experienced God, believe me, you couldn't be more wrong. I experience the Godhead more and more each day because I am denying self and bearing my cross. Again there is a big difference between wearing a cross (symbolism) and bearing a cross (reality).

Anyway this is leading off of topic so if you would like to start another thread I will happy to join you there.

slynx
Jul 17th 2007, 07:42 AM
It would trouble me to have a laity led church. It's not like anyone can be a preacher. Anyone can witness, but few are called to ministry. Training is important. A minister needs to know how to correctly interpret scripture in order to avoid heresy.

You are making several assumptions here that are not necessarily true!

1 - That the training received by the minister is the truth.
2 - That the minister's interpretation of scripture IS correct (true).
3 - That the minister is not the one propagating heresy!

It has been my experience that if one would avoid heresy, one needs to learn how to listen to the Holy Spirit - how to pay attention to those checks in one's spirit - to take seriously those moments when something in you says, "Is that really true?"

I consider myself quite blessed by God because, after I was saved, I was NOT led to any church and did not learn doctrine from any man!

I read : "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." And I read: "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." And I believed those things, so I began spending hours in the Word, using the margin notes cross-referencing scriptures, looking up words in Strong's and concepts in Nave's and searching out all those scriptures OT and NT.

I also read innumerable books from the Christian bookstore. And I came to recognize the Spirit confirming or denying various doctrinal teachings in those books, and when I would go back to check them out in the Bible, the Spirit ALWAYS brought to my mind enough of what I had read in scripture that I could find the passages to which He was leading me.

When I later attended several churches, I had no trouble recognizing false doctrines -- I just had to wait for either the check or the confirmation from the Spirit. Although I have heard of one or two in parts of the country where I don't happen to be living :( , I have YET to find an organized church that doesn't teach and preach SOME false doctrine -- and every one of them backs up their view by pointing to one scripture verse or another. It is amazing to me -- but once a person has been taught to read a verse (or read INTO it) according to some church's or pastor's pet doctrine, they absolutely refuse to consider that they "might" be wrong. They refuse to consider other scripture passages.

I also find it very confusing! Several times in the past I have come to doubt what I had learned from the Spirit -- maybe I misunderstood Him, or didn't listen closely enough. So, back to the Word I went, asking for fresh direction. I have yet to have what I originally learned from the Spirit contradicted when I went back a second or a third time -- instead, I was led to other verses that taught the same thing I had learned in the first place.

It is my opinion that many of the modern churches (in the US at least, because that is my only experience) fit what Jesus said to the Pharisees:

Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The Shadow
Jul 17th 2007, 05:29 PM
I am noticing that more and more Christians do not have a solid grasp of biblical knowledge/doctrine. It's almost like pastors are 'dumbing-down' their flock with feel-good messages and fluffy Christianity. When the storms come (and they will), these Christians are left defenseless because they have little knowledge of what the bible actually has to say! On top of that, they can't help other Christians because they themselves are not mature.They've been spoonfed milk from their pastors & tv, but no spiritual meat!

Is anyone else frustrated by this?


Biblical literacy is at an all-time low.:help:

The Shadow
Jul 17th 2007, 05:35 PM
Most Christian book stores should have a sign posted...."ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK".

jiggyfly
Jul 17th 2007, 08:03 PM
Most Christian book stores should have a sign posted...."ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK".
That is hilarious, thanks for the good laugh.

deaconrick
Jul 18th 2007, 02:38 AM
You are making several assumptions here that are not necessarily true!

1 - That the training received by the minister is the truth.
2 - That the minister's interpretation of scripture IS correct (true).
3 - That the minister is not the one propagating heresy!

You are half right, they are my assumptions. The reason I put faith in these, is because I believe that Lutheran doctrine is a true and accurate interpretation of Scripture. So long as the minister's interpretation of Scripture is in line with Scripture and Lutheran doctrine, I don't worry about it. If he is propagating heresy, we can terminate him. It is important to have a pastor who is well grounded in doctrine and a laity that also understands doctrine. That's checks and balances.