PDA

View Full Version : Is my logic about Jesus valid?



SpeakSlow
Apr 24th 2007, 11:53 PM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

Slug1
Apr 24th 2007, 11:56 PM
The Apostles performed miracles, people today perform miracles, none of these people died for our sins so we may be saved....only Jesus.

Walstib
Apr 25th 2007, 12:23 AM
Great logic I think. I thought of this verse.



And all the people were amazed and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard, they said, This one does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons. And Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. And every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? But if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, unless first he binds the strong one, and then he will plunder his house. (Mat 12:23-29)

Peace,

Joe

TEITZY
Apr 25th 2007, 12:46 AM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

That's essentially what John sets out to do in his Gospel, to prove Jesus is the Son of God through outlining 7 specific signs or miracles done by Jesus. He summarizes the purpose of his Gospel in 20:30-31:

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

A couple of verses from John that sprung to mind were:

John 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.

John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Cheers
Leigh

diffangle
Apr 25th 2007, 12:49 AM
Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?


False prophets are able to perform miracles, as Messiah says in Mat. 7:


22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works(miracles)? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. -Mat 24:24

Miracle/signs and wonders doesn't necessarily make for a true prophet or Messiah. The sign given by Messiah to verify His validity was to the Pharisees in Mat. 12:

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

No false prophet has ever risen from the dead. ;)

Paul_born_again
Apr 25th 2007, 01:00 AM
Here's an argument I like to use - you may find it useful as well.

The primary reason why Jesus was crucified (He gave up His life willingly - it was His mission on Earth, but I mean "reason" from the Pharisees and Roman authoritie's perspective), the reason He was crucified is because He said that He was God. A mother that truly loves her child would never stand idly by while her child is tortured and killed if she thought that he was lying about Him being God. All she had to do was say that Jesus was a liar, and they probably would not have killed him (and only sent Him to prison for disturbing the peace). However, Mary knew that Jesus was who He said He was and knew that He had to fulfill His mission. The fact that Mary did not try to tell the courts this, in hopes that they would not kill him, is one of the biggest proofs in my opinion. She knew the truth and was willing to let her son die for this truth.

SpeakSlow
Apr 25th 2007, 01:27 AM
Here's an argument I like to use - you may find it useful as well.

The primary reason why Jesus was crucified (He gave up His life willingly - it was His mission on Earth, but I mean "reason" from the Pharisees and Roman authoritie's perspective), the reason He was crucified is because He said that He was God. A mother that truly loves her child would never stand idly by while her child is tortured and killed if she thought that he was lying about Him being God. All she had to do was say that Jesus was a liar, and they probably would not have killed him (and only sent Him to prison for disturbing the peace). However, Mary knew that Jesus was who He said He was and knew that He had to fulfill His mission. The fact that Mary did not try to tell the courts this, in hopes that they would not kill him, is one of the biggest proofs in my opinion. She knew the truth and was willing to let her son die for this truth.

Granted you are alot more educated on this than me, are you sure about this? The Pharisees THOUGHT he was a liar, that's why they killed him. The punishment for his crime was death, Mary telling the court that he was a liar just confirmed what they already "knew."

If Jesus called himself God, and the Pharisees didn't believe him, would that not make him a liar in their eyes?

I hope I was clear on that...

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 01:33 AM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

Only if you assume what God is going to do.

Those under the infleucence of demons have performed miracles, and skilled persons are able to fake them. That does not prove anything.

Slug1
Apr 25th 2007, 01:37 AM
Only if you assume what God is going to do.

Those under the infleucence of demons have performed miracles, and skilled persons are able to fake them. That does not prove anything.

Yep, and that's what sets Jesus apart... only through Him can we be saved because He was Sacrificed by His Father for us.

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 01:37 AM
Yep, and that's what sets Jesus apart... only through Him can we be saved because He was Sacrificed by His Father for us.
What is what sets Jesus apart?

Slug1
Apr 25th 2007, 01:41 AM
That He was sacrificed and resurrected.

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 01:43 AM
That He was sacrificed and resurrected.
Ok... but you said, "Yep, and that's what sets Jesus apart... only through Him can we be saved because He was Sacrificed by His Father for us." and I apologize but I still dont see what you mean by that...?

diffangle
Apr 25th 2007, 01:48 AM
The Pharisees THOUGHT he was a liar, that's why they killed him


The Pharisees killed Him because He knew they were liars. They were threatened by Him.

Slug1
Apr 25th 2007, 01:57 AM
Well the OP stated all the things Jesus performed through the Lord's power. Except He's (Jesus) the only one to be sacrificed and resurrected apart from all the other people God performs miracles through.

I can't be saved by putting faith in an Apostle that performed miracles, nor a man that performs miracles today. Only through the Son of God.

I agree with you that miracles can be performed by man under demonic influence. Thus raises questions such as this thread.

I can't recall from scripture that Jesus ever declared Himself God :hmm: He is God in the flesh.

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 02:00 AM
Well the OP stated all the things Jesus performed through the Lord's power. Except He's (Jesus) the only one to be sacrificed and resurrected apart from all the other people God performs miracles through.

I can't be saved by putting faith in an Apostle that performed miracles, nor a man that performs miracles today. Only through the Son of God.

I agree with you that miracles can be performed by man under demonic influence.

I can't recall from scripture that Jesus ever declared Himself God :hmm: He is God in the flesh.

Ok, I think I get it now. Just that you didnt reply to the OP, so was hard to tell

Jesus never declard Himself God.. what about "Before Abraham came, 'I AM'"

Slug1
Apr 25th 2007, 02:07 AM
Jesus never declard Himself God.. what about "Before Abraham came, 'I AM'"

What scripture cause I'm on a computer that doesn't have my Biblegateway thingy search bar ;)

SpeakSlow
Apr 25th 2007, 02:22 AM
The Pharisees killed Him because He knew they were liars. They were threatened by Him.

It probably would have been easier to just believe him.

diffangle
Apr 25th 2007, 02:35 AM
It probably would have been easier to just believe him


Yes, from our perspective but if your "evil and adulterous" as Messiah called them then you'd feel threatened by the Messiah who would threaten your power/position/money.

GothicAngel
Apr 25th 2007, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE=Slug1;1239893]What scripture cause I'm on a computer that doesn't have my Biblegateway thingy search bar ;)[/QUOTE
John 8:58

awestruckchild
Apr 25th 2007, 06:49 PM
Regarding your earlier post speakslow-
I don't think that the pharisees really did think He was a liar. I think they saw the truth in everything He said!
I think they just couldn't stand what they were hearing because it spoke badly of them and might cause people to begin to question the authority they had grabbed for themselves.

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 09:26 PM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

Jesus never claimed to be God but said God was His Father. He also said” The works that i do I do not but mFather in me He doe th the work”. Jesus had God’s Spirit in Him.

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 09:35 PM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

You are absolutely correct. Jesus said "the works that I do testify of me".

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 09:37 PM
Jesus never claimed to be God but said God was His Father. He also said” The works that i do I do not but mFather in me He doe th the work”. Jesus had God’s Spirit in Him.

He also said this...

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus is not denying His Deity when He says that He can do nothing of Himself, He is saying that He is not acting independantly of the Father. (The persons in the Godhead never act independantly of one another, of course, they are ONE). The thing I want you to notice is that Jesus says WHAT THINGS SOEVER (in other words ALL OR EVERY) work that the Father does, the Son does likewise. Think about it...everything that the Father does, the Son does as well.

John was not lying when He said the WORD was God.

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 09:42 PM
Yep, and that's what sets Jesus apart... only through Him can we be saved because He was Sacrificed by His Father for us.

Slug, tell me, how do you read this(I say unto you , the Amen, the True Wittness, the Begining of all Creation). Have a go at it.

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2017, 09:44 PM
Jesus performed miracles.
Jesus essentially declared himself God.
If he was lieing about this, God wouldn't allow him the ability to perform miracles. He would have been committing a terrible sin had he been lieing about being God in the flesh.

Are we able to ASSUME he was telling the truth since he was able to perform miracles? Is their any scripture to support any of this?

Jesus is God but not because of any miracles.

Neh_9:15 And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.

2Sa_23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Psa_18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psa 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Psa_78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.


God is our rock!

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co_10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And Christ is God because he was the rock in OT times.

For those reading who don't think Jesus is God:

Do you believe Israel's rock was God? Do you believe 1Co_10:4 when it says that rock/God was Christ? Yes or no? If you believe the bible and Paul's writings then you have to accept that Christ is God or else deny everything Paul ever wrote because he say's Christ is God of the Old Testament!

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 09:47 PM
I am truly sorry. Im still trying to get a handle on this.

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 09:51 PM
Oh, and by the way, Jesus did claim to be God. In the Book of Revelation when He said He is the FIRST AND THE LAST, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End.

a. Revelation 1:11- 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: (the Alpha and Omega is the same person as the first and the last)

b. Revelation 1:8- I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (The Alpha and Omega is the Beginning and ending, who is the ALMIGHTY.)

c. Isaiah 41:4- Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord (YHWH), the first, and with the last; I am he. (YHWH/Jehovah is the First and the Last.)

d. Revelation 1:18- 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Jesus is the First and the Last see point c)

e. Revelation 22:12 And,behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (The Alpha and Omega is coming quickly, Jesus is the one who is coming quickly, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the end, the First and the Last, therefore He is the ALMIGHTY. (see points b and c)

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2017, 09:52 PM
The Pharisees THOUGHT he was a liar, that's why they killed him.

This is why they wanted him dead:

Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

He did things on the Sabbath the Jews didn't like and claimed to be equal with God meaning that he was God. Jesus = God, equal with God.


Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Claiming to be the "I AM" of the OT made them want to kill him.

And again:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Joh 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 09:56 PM
I am truly sorry. Im still trying to get a handle on this.

ewq1938
Oct 21st 2017, 09:58 PM
Jesus never claimed to be God but said God was His Father.

Christ said that he was God many times and so did others, and he also said his Father was God. God, that three letter word, is a title and a term denoting divinity. Both the Son and Father are divine and thus both are God.

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 09:59 PM
I am truly sorry. I’m still trying to get a handle on this.

That's understandable. It is a heavy truth and takes a while "to get a handle on it". Just keep praying and reading God's Word with an open heart, and receive what God gives you.

I struggled with it for a time too, but then way too many scriptures affirmed Christ's Deity for me to deny it.

If you havent seen them yet, please take a look at posts 23 and 27

Slug1
Oct 21st 2017, 10:06 PM
Slug, tell me, how do you read this(I say unto you , the Amen, the True Wittness, the Begining of all Creation). Have a go at it.Post #14.

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 10:07 PM
I am truly sorry. Im still trying to get a handle on this.

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 10:11 PM
I can't recall from scripture that Jesus ever declared Himself God :hmm.

please see post 27. Jesus calling Himself Alpha and Omega, First and the Last, Beginning in Revelation 1 and 22 and end is attributing three titles of Deity to Himself.

Point-man
Oct 21st 2017, 10:13 PM
Christ said that he was God many times and so did others, and he also said his Father was God. God, that three letter word, is a title and a term denoting divinity. Both the Son and Father are divine and thus both are God.

No disagreement there at all. John 3:13 makes even plainer. Nice answer.

Brother Mark
Oct 21st 2017, 10:14 PM
Jesus never claimed to be God but said God was His Father. He also said” The works that i do I do not but mFather in me He doe th the work”. Jesus had God’s Spirit in Him.

This is a 10 year old thread. But your post bears answering. Jesus took on the name of the same God that spoke to Moses in the burning bush:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
NKJV

Jesus is I AM.

Slug1
Oct 21st 2017, 10:16 PM
please see post 27. Jesus calling Himself Alpha and Omega, First and the Last, Beginning in Revelation 1 and 22 and end is attributing three titles of Deity to Himself.Yeah I know... I was much unlearned back then.

jesusinmylife
Oct 21st 2017, 10:22 PM
This is a 10 year old thread.

As are most of his posts.

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 10:22 PM
Yeah I know... I was much unlearned back then.

Sorry, I didnt realize how old the thread was. :)

glad4mercy
Oct 21st 2017, 10:25 PM
This is a 10 year old thread. But your post bears answering. Jesus took on the name of the same God that spoke to Moses in the burning bush:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
NKJV

Jesus is I AM.

Abraham came into existence (Abraham was- Greek came into existence). Jesus always existed (not I was before Abraham, or I came into existence before Abraham, but before Abraham existed, I exist, eternality.)

BrianW
Oct 21st 2017, 10:59 PM
Wow!!!

Things like this are a very good reminder that every post we submit is a witness to hundreds and potentially thousands of people. These threads stay open for a looooong time and then are put into an archive.