2pe 3:4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.


Mark.

2pe 3:4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.


Mark.

Amen Mark.

And when we accept what those two Scriptures you posted literally says, there will not be one mortal to survive Christ's fiery Coming and be left to populate any earthly millennium kingdom headquarted in today's earthly Jerusalem over in the Middle East.

Shirley

2pe 3:4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.


Mark.

I agree with you that it's clear that no mortals survive His coming. But you cannot deny that the thousand year reign even exists at all. Amils believe the thousand years is a figurative term for the New Testament time period, but we still believe that it is speaking of a literal reign. You can't just say there is no reign at all. That isn't being honest with the text. You must believe that Satan's little season never happens as well since it occurs after the thousand years?

Why could not the Pharisees and Saducees accept that Jesus was the Messiah? partly it was because they looked at scriptures and interpreted that the Messiah ought to be a literal King. Well, that is true but he was also to be a suffering servant. It did not even cross their mind that the messiah they were looking for could come twice (or perhaps more than that) to fulfill all the promises that are contained in the scriptures. Thinking along the same lines, could there be more than one day of the Lord?

Reading 2 Peter 3:10 in the original:

shall pass away - parerchomai - can also mean give way...Heavens will give way?

elements - stoicheion - can also mean principalities as in evil spiritual authorities and hierarchies...Good example is Galatians 4:3

the earth - ge - the land...e.g. Matthew 2:20 - "...go into the (ge) land of Israel.

1 Peter 3:10, could be better interpreted from the original as such:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens give way with a great noise, and the principalities shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the land that are therein shall be burned up."

Scripture has to interpret scripture and when we use scripture to interpret scripture, there is a strong agreement for the thousand year rule of Christ.

Why could not the Pharisees and Saducees accept that Jesus was the Messiah? partly it was because they looked at scriptures and interpreted that the Messiah ought to be a literal King. Well, that is true but he was also to be a suffering servant. It did not even cross their mind that the messiah they were looking for could come twice (or perhaps more than that) to fulfill all the promises that are contained in the scriptures. Thinking along the same lines, could there be more than one day of the Lord?

Reading 2 Peter 3:10 in the original:

shall pass away - parerchomai - can also mean give way...Heavens will give way?

elements - stoicheion - can also mean principalities as in evil spiritual authorities and hierarchies...Good example is Galatians 4:3

the earth - ge - the land...e.g. Matthew 2:20 - "...go into the (ge) land of Israel.

1 Peter 3:10, could be better interpreted from the original as such:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens give way with a great noise, and the principalities shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the land that are therein shall be burned up."

Scripture has to interpret scripture and when we use scripture to interpret scripture, there is a strong agreement for the thousand year rule of Christ.

What about John 3:3? Do we still need to be born again? ;)

Paul

Indeed...What does being born again mean??? Is it the one decision you make that one time in your life and you are saved for eternity???

Indeed...What does being born again mean??? Is it the one decision you make that one time in your life and you are saved for eternity???

I was referring to the Premil habit of not taking Scripture literal. You dilute 2 Peter 3:10 down to say something it isn't saying. Amils take the destruction in view literal and believe it accompanies the climactic return of Christ. Whilst Premil demands that certain passges are spiritualised away it doesn't make satisfactory sense.

Paul

I was referring to the Premil habit of not taking Scripture literal. You dilute 2 Peter 3:10 down to say something it isn't saying. Amils take the destruction in view literal and believe it accompanies the climactic return of Christ. Whilst Premil demands that certain passges are spiritualised away it doesn't make satisfactory sense.

Paul


your right, what we should do is find somewhere in the bible that "melt" means something symbolic and then apply it to this passage. Or better yet because Peter talks about some symbolic things, we must assume the entire book is symbolic.

maybe because Peter says that one day to the lord is as a 1000 yrs, the day of the Lord is a 1000 yrs. Stange that this is in the same passage huh.

your right, what we should do is find somewhere in the bible that "melt" means something symbolic and then apply it to this passage. Or better yet because Peter talks about some symbolic things, we must assume the entire book is symbolic.

maybe because Peter says that one day to the lord is as a 1000 yrs, the day of the Lord is a 1000 yrs. Stange that this is in the same passage huh.

There is a difference between a literal 'one thousand' (you suggest) and a figurative 'a thousand' (Scripture mentions).

Are you suggesting that the day of the Lord is a literal 1,000 yrs?

Paul

There is a difference between a literal 'one thousand' (you suggest) and a figurative 'a thousand' (Scripture mentions).

Are you suggesting that the day of the Lord is a literal 1,000 yrs?

Paul

So, Revelation's version of the exact term, 1000 years, is now figurative, or is that just your interpretation of what it says?

There is a difference between a literal 'one thousand' (you suggest) and a figurative 'a thousand' (Scripture mentions).

Are you suggesting that the day of the Lord is a literal 1,000 yrs?

Paul


I would give it some thought, certainly alot more thought than just saying the 1000 yrs in Rev 20 is figurative to make it fit my doctrine.

I do however find it very intersting that Peter puts that statement in the mist of this passage.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This does not say that one day is A thousand years, but AS a thousand years. Is Christ telling us that the Kingdom generation, NT era symbolically is AS one thousand years? This would certainly affirm the opinion of symbolically reigning one thousand years with Christ now (one day with the Lord, i.e. near, beside, in Christ), as well as Satan being bound for one thousand symbolic years now. The text certainly alludes to this because it tells us the Lord is long suffering, patiently awaiting His return until the last of His elect should come to repentance, i.e. the whole NT era, i.e. as a thousand years with the Lord.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (burn down; wholly consume; see Mt. 3:12; 13:30,40; Lu 3:17).

After showing us this symbolic thousand years time, which covers the whole NT era, we read BUT (also, and, but, moreover, now)…when? at the end of the symbolic thousand years, the Lord will come and the heavens will pass away, the elements melt with fervent heat, and the earth and works therein shall be burned up. At His Coming all these things shall be dissolved (to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off).

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

We’ve twice read that the coming of the Lord is with fire, and fervent heat, yet once more we read of the accompaniment of fire, burning, and melting with fervent heat.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

As Mark has well said, “Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.”

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

RW

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This does not say that one day is A thousand years, but AS a thousand years. Is Christ telling us that the Kingdom generation, NT era symbolically is AS one thousand years? This would certainly affirm the opinion of symbolically reigning one thousand years with Christ now (one day with the Lord, i.e. near, beside, in Christ), as well as Satan being bound for one thousand symbolic years now. The text certainly alludes to this because it tells us the Lord is long suffering, patiently awaiting His return until the last of His elect should come to repentance, i.e. the whole NT era, i.e. as a thousand years with the Lord.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (burn down; wholly consume; see Mt. 3:12; 13:30,40; Lu 3:17).

After showing us this symbolic thousand years time, which covers the whole NT era, we read BUT (also, and, but, moreover, now)…when? at the end of the symbolic thousand years, the Lord will come and the heavens will pass away, the elements melt with fervent heat, and the earth and works therein shall be burned up. At His Coming all these things shall be dissolved (to "loosen" (literally or figuratively):--break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-)loose, melt, put off).

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

We’ve twice read that the coming of the Lord is with fire, and fervent heat, yet once more we read of the accompaniment of fire, burning, and melting with fervent heat.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

As Mark has well said, “Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.”

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

RW

1st off I didn't say that the day of the Lord is a thousand years, I said I would give it more thought than butchering Rev 20 to make it fit my doctrine.

Case in point, if you do say that the earth is destroyed at the coming of Jesus then you would have to dramatically change Rev 19 and 20 which says that christ comes back on a white horse destroyes the armies and then cast the serpent in to the pit for a thousand years while he reigns.

If you still contend with your above statement not only are you not be honest with yourself, you not being honest with scripture.

I was referring to the Premil habit of not taking Scripture literal. You dilute 2 Peter 3:10 down to say something it isn't saying. Amils take the destruction in view literal and believe it accompanies the climactic return of Christ. Whilst Premil demands that certain passges are spiritualised away it doesn't make satisfactory sense.

Paul

I don't like tags of 'pre-mil', 'post-mil', etc...I refuse to be boxed by theology...My personal belief lies in the balance of the scripture...I just tried interpreting keywords from Greek from 1 Peter 3:10, and tried to say what it could mean. You can do a honest study of the Word not only in Greek but in other ancient languages as well to have clarity...but above all, scripture has to interpret scripture...

2pe 3:4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

THE DAY of the Lord, *a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a DAY WITH the Lord* That is my interpretation of the Day of the Lord, it begins with the next verse, judgement on the world system, He reigns for a thousand years, and then comes the destruction of the heaven and earth at the end.



Lu 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.Lu 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The description of the judgement of the world system, babylon, when the SON OF MAN IS REVEALED, which is different than the day of the Lord.



Folks, if you deny that the heaven and earth are destroyed when Christ returns then you are not being honest with yourself. You well know if the old heaven and earth is destroyed upon the return of Christ then it must be replaced with a new heaven and earth at this time and not 1000 years later.

Mark.

At least that is how I came to that conclusion. Though I can see where you are coming from Mark, I have considered this option many times. But when I see the difference in the REVEALING of the Son of Man and the Day of the Lord...I come up with a thousand year reign. Though I could still find myself as wrong when our Lord returns to us in bodily form. Guess we will wait and see.
Good to see you Mark, :wave: :D don't think I have seen you around in a while, but then that could be because I haven't really been around much until recently.:hmm:

Is that signature of yours Hawaiian?

Is that signature of yours Hawaiian?


Yes it is, I took it from a hula dance that my daughter is doing. It is very bueatiful when you see it danced and chanted of course.

I'm sure it is beautiful, I like hula dancing, I think it is very much like watching nature flowing in the breeze. I don't speak the language, but I think it sounds beautiful, and would love to speak and understand it. but it is one of those languages that are easily recognizable. Thanks for answering me.:D

Sorry folks, back to topic now.:D :OFFT:

1st off I didn't say that the day of the Lord is a thousand years, I said I would give it more thought than butchering Rev 20 to make it fit my doctrine.

Case in point, if you do say that the earth is destroyed at the coming of Jesus then you would have to dramatically change Rev 19 and 20 which says that christ comes back on a white horse destroyes the armies and then cast the serpent in to the pit for a thousand years while he reigns.

If you still contend with your above statement not only are you not be honest with yourself, you not being honest with scripture.

The book of Revelation describes the Coming of Christ a few times, and the descriptions vary greatly. In Rev 14 Christ comes on a white cloud with a sickle to harvest the earth, and cast those gathered into the winepress of the wrath of God. Rev 10 tells us that with the voice of the seventh angel time will be no longer, and the mystery of God will be finished. In Rev 11 we hear of the seventh angel sounding telling us the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. In vs. 18 we read; “the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.” In Rev 16 we read; “seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.” The next thing we read is the wrath of God coming against the inhabitants of the earth.

The point being that you cannot read Rev 19 & 20 as though they are in chronological order. Looking at Rev 16 ,19 & 20 we read how an army comes together to battle against Christ and His saints.

Rev 16 speaks of three spirits of devils, i.e. the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet gathering together in a place called Armageddon.

Rev 19 says the beast and the kings of the earth make war against He Who sits on the horse and His army. We also read that the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.

Then in Rev 20 at the end of one thousand years Satan gathers together his people from the four quarters of the earth to come against Christ, His saints, and the beloved city. Here we read that Satan is also cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.

If we read these passages as you are reading Rev 19 & 20 then time ends at Rev 16 because after the three spirits gather together their army from the whole world we read in vs. 17-21 the sounding of the seventh angel and the wrath of God being poured upon the earth. I would propose a more accurate reading of these passages. All three chapters are describing the same event which comes in the fullness of time, or at the end of the symbolic one thousand years. Reading all three chapters gives us greater detail, a much better picture of Satan and his demonic emissaries coming against Christ to wage one final battle.

Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Re 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Re 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Re 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them..
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan is bound for a symbolic thousand years which began at the cross and resurrection. He is bound so that the Kingdom can be completed. In the fullness of time (end of the thousand years) Satan is loosed so that he, the beast, the false prophet, and all those of the earth who have received his mark come against Christ, His saints, and the beloved city for one final battle. But fire comes down from God out of heaven, and the beast, and false prophet are the first to be cast into the lake of fire, followed by Satan, who is also cast in with them. Finally in Rev 20 we read of the great white throne judgment, and whoever is not found written in the book of life is also cast into the lake of fire. Time is no more!

RW

Satan wasn't bound at the cross and still isn't bound. He is completely free to do as God has allowed him to do until the time comes for him to be actually bound.

Satan wasn't bound at the cross and still isn't bound. He is completely free to do as God has allowed him to do until the time comes for him to be actually bound.


Something happened to Satan at the Cross. What do you think it was?

Figures of speach, most of the apostles spoke this way so theres no need to take them literal, when thier not being literal.


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The above scripture by Peter, says and this is what was prohecied by the prophet Joel. But this prophecy is an ongoing prophecy, as the moon did'nt turn to blood niether did the sun turn into darkness, and the lord did'nt return at that time.

So we see here Peter breaking up this prophecy into two seperate events. One on the day of pentecost as the spirit was given out to believers, and the other as we know didnt happen yet (ie the return of the lord from heaven)

Now this is an example of Peter useing prophecy in a way that most could call him a false prophet or teacher of the word. Because this prophecy of Joel is one big prophecy of things to come, but Peter broke it up on the day of pentecost.

So who can say that the other prophecy Peter gives (Ie the lord returning and destroying this earth immediately at his return) is not also a figer of speach that will come to pass in an ongoing way. As the book of revelation is our final revelation by Christ, and what Peter says appears to be a contradiction to the book of revelation (ie the Mill). But its not, this scripture 2Pe 3:10 is just Peters way of speaking and saying that the day of the lords return will sooner or later bring a total rejuvenating of this earth, then a new one will be created, heaven as well.

My my, why don't we just except what the book of revelation says?instead of contradicting it with the apostles way of speaking, and many of the apostles and phophets spoke this way. Take the book of revelation as an interpreter to what they said, you can never go wrong this way.

The book of revelation is our final revelation no matter what anyone says, given to the Church of Christ. Its a revelation of what the apostles and prophets said. And if it says there will be a millenium reign of Jeusus Christ , then there will be one, simple. I would'nt want to rob Christ of this, or deny its there.


God bless

Something happened to Satan at the Cross. What do you think it was?

What? And where does it say something happened to satan at the cross? I know it says something happened to our sin at the cross, and something happened for our bodies at the resurrection, but what does it say happened to satan at the cross?

What? And where does it say something happened to satan at the cross? I know it says something happened to our sin at the cross, and something happened for our bodies at the resurrection, but what does it say happened to satan at the cross?


Well, I was hoping that you, or anyone else would try to find it, but I will give you a head start - the clues are lightning, heaven and accusor.

The book of Revelation describes the Coming of Christ a few times, and the descriptions vary greatly. In Rev 14 Christ comes on a white cloud with a sickle to harvest the earth, and cast those gathered into the winepress of the wrath of God. Rev 10 tells us that with the voice of the seventh angel time will be no longer, and the mystery of God will be finished. In Rev 11 we hear of the seventh angel sounding telling us the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. In vs. 18 we read; “the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.” In Rev 16 we read; “seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.” The next thing we read is the wrath of God coming against the inhabitants of the earth.

The point being that you cannot read Rev 19 & 20 as though they are in chronological order. Looking at Rev 16 ,19 & 20 we read how an army comes together to battle against Christ and His saints.

Rev 16 speaks of three spirits of devils, i.e. the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet gathering together in a place called Armageddon.

Rev 19 says the beast and the kings of the earth make war against He Who sits on the horse and His army. We also read that the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.

Then in Rev 20 at the end of one thousand years Satan gathers together his people from the four quarters of the earth to come against Christ, His saints, and the beloved city. Here we read that Satan is also cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.

If we read these passages as you are reading Rev 19 & 20 then time ends at Rev 16 because after the three spirits gather together their army from the whole world we read in vs. 17-21 the sounding of the seventh angel and the wrath of God being poured upon the earth. I would propose a more accurate reading of these passages. All three chapters are describing the same event which comes in the fullness of time, or at the end of the symbolic one thousand years. Reading all three chapters gives us greater detail, a much better picture of Satan and his demonic emissaries coming against Christ to wage one final battle.

Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Re 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Re 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Re 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Re 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them..
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan is bound for a symbolic thousand years which began at the cross and resurrection. He is bound so that the Kingdom can be completed. In the fullness of time (end of the thousand years) Satan is loosed so that he, the beast, the false prophet, and all those of the earth who have received his mark come against Christ, His saints, and the beloved city for one final battle. But fire comes down from God out of heaven, and the beast, and false prophet are the first to be cast into the lake of fire, followed by Satan, who is also cast in with them. Finally in Rev 20 we read of the great white throne judgment, and whoever is not found written in the book of life is also cast into the lake of fire. Time is no more!

RW

again, you not telling me anything new that some one else with your doctrine hasn't already. let me rephrase or put into simple terms of what you are saying.

1. evidence suggests that Rev is not in order
2. therefore rev 19 and 20 are not either
3. 1000 is symbolic
4. satan is bound now

what you didn't do was give me any scripture showing this to be true. They are all assumptions on your part. Assumptions that fit the doctrine that you want to beleive. You want beleive satan is bound now, but he's really not bound, he just supposedly cannot stop the gosple from going forth which is beyond me. You beleive the 1000 is symbolic because rev is a symbolic book therefore the 1000 must be as well. Where is your proof!

Something happened to Satan at the Cross. What do you think it was?

Humanity was freed from the grip of Satan. Satan's Kingdom, like a boat full of holes, started to sink at the Cross. Satan was not bound, he was defeated.

Humanity was freed from the grip of Satan. Satan's Kingdom, like a boat full of holes, started to sink at the Cross. Satan was not bound, he was defeated.


And I suppose by this logic, Saddam was not bound, only defeated?

And I suppose by this logic, Saddam was not bound, only defeated?
Show me a verse in the NT that says, "Satan is Bound" (present tense). I can show you a verse that shows Satan free after the cross. And here it is.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Take a look. Peter is clear. Be sober. Be vigilant, because your enemy, the devil, as a raoring lion, walks about, seeking for whom he may devour. If 1 Peter was written after the cross, then I guess either Peter is lying about the Devil walking the earth, unbound, or else your interpretation of what happened at the cross is seriously off.

Guess what I think?

And I suppose by this logic, Saddam was not bound, only defeated?

If memory serves me correctly he was hung.

What? And where does it say something happened to satan at the cross? I know it says something happened to our sin at the cross, and something happened for our bodies at the resurrection, but what does it say happened to satan at the cross?

This is what it says:

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. - Colossians 2:13-15

Jesus triumped over Satan and his demons with His death on the cross.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

That is from the KJV. The NASB version sheds more light on its true meaning:

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. - Hebrews 2:14-15

With His death, Jesus took away the power of death from Satan. Satan could no longer hold people in bondage by the fear of death because Jesus set us free.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

One of the reasons Jesus came was to destroy the works of the devil and set people free from sin. Did He fail? Did the gospel not go out into nations where they never had a relationship with God before? Did He not succeed in delivering the Gentile nations from Satan's grasp? Before Christ came there were very, very few Gentiles that were saved. But things changed after He came. Millions and millions of Gentiles have been saved as a result of His sacrifice for them on the cross.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10

People from the Gentile nations had virtualy no relationship with God before Christ came. They were not the people of God. After He came, they could be called the people of God because of Christ.

The following passages also speak about the binding of Satan:

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. - Matthew 12:28-29

26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. - Mark 3:26-27

20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. - Luke 11:20-22

The strong man is Satan. The one stronger than him that came and overcame him is Jesus. Jesus came and took the power of death away from Satan. Jesus spoiled Satan's goods and his house. He divided his spoils by setting free many who had been under Satan's grasp. Some remained in his grasp, but the fact is that the gospel made a huge impact on the Gentile nations compared to the way they were before. Millions of Gentiles have come to know Christ in the New Testament time period compared to relatively few having a relationship with God in Old Testament times.

Something happened to Satan at the Cross. What do you think it was?


I think you guys give to much credit to satan. I don't think Jesus died on the cross to defeat or bind Satan. I don't think this was his purpose at all. In fact all scripture seems to say that he died for you and for me. We had a debt that couldn't be paid and he paid it for us. Jesus could at any minute defeated satan without ever having to leave heaven, but he came here for you and for me.

While trying to prove that the "Strong man" in Luke 11 is Satan, although Satan is not a man at all, the point, the original point that Christ made is lost. The parable was to highlight His original point, and that is this:

But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth. - Luke 11:17

In other words, Jesus challenged the pharisees trhat said this:

But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. -Luke 11:15

Jesus is not even talking about the cross or His death. He is exclusiovely talking about the authority He uses to casts out demons.

Now to put this in perspective. When a person is possessed by a demon, the person's will is enslaved to the demon posessing him or her. If one tried to casts out a demon in the name of the kingd of demons, then one would find it to be of no effect, because the house of Satan is united. Therefore, in order for the person to be released from the posession of Satan, the authority of that leader of the demon must be bound, in order to have the evil spirit removed from the body of the one posessed. This is what Jesus explained to the people, and this only.

Therefore, one can not bind the authority of the devil by proclaiming the name of the devil. One can only do so by proclaiming the authority and name of the one who is stronger than the devil, and that is God. This is what Christ was explaining to the people, and not about something concerning what would happen at the Cross. this is why we say, "In the name of Jesus, demon come out", instead of saying "Demon come out". If one tries to use his or her own authority, which he or she does not have, then that person will not only fail to casts out the demon, but subject theirselves to being posessed themselves. Therefore, to bind the power of the strong man, one must invoke one even stronger, Jesus.

Now that you have the lesson of casting out demons, one might want to stop using this passagfe to define what Christ did not define when He said it.

I think you guys give to much credit to satan. I don't think Jesus died on the cross to defeat or bind Satan. I don't think this was his purpose at all. In fact all scripture seems to say that he died for you and for me. We had a debt that couldn't be paid and he paid it for us. Jesus could at any minute defeated satan without ever having to leave heaven, but he came here for you and for me.

Good point. The focus of Christ was not to defeat the enemy, because we find in Revelation 19 that He will do so easily. His focus was on us, God's chosen. The Believers are the reasons why Christ went to the Cross, to free us from the bonds of Sin that Adam put us under.

Good point. The focus of Christ was not to defeat the enemy, because we find in Revelation 19 that He will do so easily.

Didn't you just say in another post that Satan was not bound, he was defeated? So, do you believe he is defeated now?



His focus was on us, God's chosen. The Believers are the reasons why Christ went to the Cross, to free us from the bonds of Sin that Adam put us under.

He certainly came and died on the cross for those reasons. But He also came for these reasons:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

I think you guys give to much credit to satan.

How so? We believe he is spiritually bound and defeated. He is powerless to stop the spread of the gospel until the time of his little season. He has no power whatsoever over us. We merely have to put on the armor of God and resist him and he has to flee.



I don't think Jesus died on the cross to defeat or bind Satan. I don't think this was his purpose at all. In fact all scripture seems to say that he died for you and for me. We had a debt that couldn't be paid and he paid it for us. Jesus could at any minute defeated satan without ever having to leave heaven, but he came here for you and for me.

See the post I just made to third hero. What is your interpretation of passages like 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15?

Good point. The focus of Christ was not to defeat the enemy, because we find in Revelation 19 that He will do so easily. His focus was on us, God's chosen. The Believers are the reasons why Christ went to the Cross, to free us from the bonds of Sin that Adam put us under.

Up until the Gospel, Satan stood as our accuser before the throne of God. Jesus removed that in Himself at the cross and Satan was cast out of Heaven and in fact prophesied that He saw it happen. You seem to forget that our battle is not between flesh and blood and therefore you seem to have no understanding of what binds Satan.

Luke 10:17-19
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

And

Rev. 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


No longer does Satan stand in accusation of the saints. He is bound as the strongman is bound and is impotent against the righteousness of grace through the attoning blood of Christ.

Didn't you just say in another post that Satan was not bound, he was defeated? So, do you believe he is defeated now?

Every time a person comes to the Lord, Satan is defeated. Every time a believer triumphs over a temptation that Satan lays out for him or her to stumble on, Satan is defeated. It did not end at the Cross, it started there. His final defeat will be when Christ hands the world over to Father God, to be destroyed, after Satan's time of imprisonment.



He certainly came and died on the cross for those reasons. But He also came for these reasons:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15


Again, see what I have written above for my response.

How so? We believe he is spiritually bound and defeated. He is powerless to stop the spread of the gospel until the time of his little season. He has no power whatsoever over us. We merely have to put on the armor of God and resist him and he has to flee.

Anyone can be defeated without being bound. I have defeated many foes, and I have bound none of them. the term "defeated" and the term "bound" are not synomonous. The term "defeated" means that one has lost a battle or a fight. The term "bound" means that one has been tied up, imprisoned, or otherwise held against their will. There is no union with bound and defeated.



See the post I just made to third hero. What is your interpretation of passages like 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15?

My interpretation of Hebrews 2:14-15 is this:

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I think that was easy enough. To destroy is the same as to defeat, because in some cases, destruction comes as a result of defeating an adversary. Now Verse 15 mentions a freeing, and not a binding. The ones being freed are the believers, who, throught he saving grace of the Cross, are freed from the bondage of sin and death. Again, there is no mentioning of Satan being bound, only destroyed. And we know that Satan was not totally destroyed at the Cross, but his power certainly was. The power that Satan had to draw all men into death through sin was completely destroyed because Christ died on the Cross.

Again, 1 John 3:8 shows again, Christ defeating the works of the enemy. At the Cross, Satan was defeated, not bound. This is as simple as apple pie.

Up until the Gospel, Satan stood as our accuser before the throne of God. Jesus removed that in Himself at the cross and Satan was cast out of Heaven and in fact prophesied that He saw it happen. You seem to forget that our battle is not between flesh and blood and therefore you seem to have no understanding of what binds Satan.

Luke 10:17-19
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

And

Rev. 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


No longer does Satan stand in accusation of the saints. He is bound as the strongman is bound and is impotent against the righteousness of grace through the attoning blood of Christ.

Aren't we jumping a little ahead of ourselves here? Look at Revelation 12. Israel is attacked, the earth opens her mouth and swallows the flood that attempts to destroy the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Is Israel in flight right now? No. Therefore Revelation 12 is a future happening, including the time when Michael boots Satan from heaven. Until we see the Abomination that causes desolation, rest assured that Satan is still accusing us, the brethern day and night. This is why things sometimes happen that causes us grief, and also causes our faith to be tested. That is by virtue of the accusing day and night. Just read Job and see for yourselves.

Now Luke 10 brings up a subject that I think should be discussed, because I believe that Satan first fell right before Creation, and that is the occasion in which Christ speaks of. Remember, before Creation, Satan was called a different name, and as a result of his sin against God, his original name and authority was stripped, and he was hurled from heaven, not by Michael, but by God Himself. (According to the legends anyway).

Anyone can be defeated without being bound. I have defeated many foes, and I have bound none of them. the term "defeated" and the term "bound" are not synomonous. The term "defeated" means that one has lost a battle or a fight. The term "bound" means that one has been tied up, imprisoned, or otherwise held against their will. There is no union with bound and defeated.




My interpretation of Hebrews 2:14-15 is this:

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I think that was easy enough. To destroy is the same as to defeat, because in some cases, destruction comes as a result of defeating an adversary. Now Verse 15 mentions a freeing, and not a binding. The ones being freed are the believers, who, throught he saving grace of the Cross, are freed from the bondage of sin and death. Again, there is no mentioning of Satan being bound, only destroyed. And we know that Satan was not totally destroyed at the Cross, but his power certainly was. The power that Satan had to draw all men into death through sin was completely destroyed because Christ died on the Cross.

Again, 1 John 3:8 shows again, Christ defeating the works of the enemy. At the Cross, Satan was defeated, not bound. This is as simple as apple pie.


Your interpretation seems simple enough, but it lacks the substance of legitimacy. We have Rev. 20 that tells us he was bound for a thousand years. We know that this age we are in is that thousand years where Christ reigns. He has been enthroned on the throne of David which is the dynasty of righteousness. Likewise we have Scripture already shown to you which reiterates this truth that Satan is bound. It takes study and it is not simple. It requires reading the bible for all its worth.

Aren't we jumping a little ahead of ourselves here? Look at Revelation 12. Israel is attacked, the earth opens her mouth and swallows the flood that attempts to destroy the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Is Israel in flight right now? No. Therefore Revelation 12 is a future happening, including the time when Michael boots Satan from heaven. Until we see the Abomination that causes desolation, rest assured that Satan is still accusing us, the brethern day and night. This is why things sometimes happen that causes us grief, and also causes our faith to be tested. That is by virtue of the accusing day and night. Just read Job and see for yourselves.

Now Luke 10 brings up a subject that I think should be discussed, because I believe that Satan first fell right before Creation, and that is the occasion in which Christ speaks of. Remember, before Creation, Satan was called a different name, and as a result of his sin against God, his original name and authority was stripped, and he was hurled from heaven, not by Michael, but by God Himself. (According to the legends anyway).


No jumping ahead at all. Jesus saw it in His day and John spoke of it again as an illustration for us.

If you personally are looking for the abomination that causes desolation , sorry to tell you that you missed it by almost 2000 years.

Aren't we jumping a little ahead of ourselves here? Look at Revelation 12. Israel is attacked, the earth opens her mouth and swallows the flood that attempts to destroy the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Is Israel in flight right now? No. Therefore Revelation 12 is a future happening, including the time when Michael boots Satan from heaven. Until we see the Abomination that causes desolation, rest assured that Satan is still accusing us, the brethern day and night. This is why things sometimes happen that causes us grief, and also causes our faith to be tested. That is by virtue of the accusing day and night. Just read Job and see for yourselves.

Now Luke 10 brings up a subject that I think should be discussed, because I believe that Satan first fell right before Creation, and that is the occasion in which Christ speaks of. Remember, before Creation, Satan was called a different name, and as a result of his sin against God, his original name and authority was stripped, and he was hurled from heaven, not by Michael, but by God Himself. (According to the legends anyway).


Part of correct understand of Revelation is to under this verse:

Rev. 12:So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep God’s commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus.

In your viw, TH, who is the woman and who is the rest of her offspring?

Your interpretation seems simple enough, but it lacks the substance of legitimacy. We have Rev. 20 that tells us he was bound for a thousand years. We know that this age we are in is that thousand years where Christ reigns. He has been enthroned on the throne of David which is the dynasty of righteousness. Likewise we have Scripture already shown to you which reiterates this truth that Satan is bound. It takes study and it is not simple. It requires reading the bible for all its worth.

Oh course it would lack substance to those who think that all of th nations of the world are being directly ruled by CHrist and His saints in Jerusalem today. To those who think as such, it has no substance. However, if Revelation is not fulfilled yet, and it isn't, then it has all of the substance in the world.

Part of correct understand of Revelation is to under this verse:

Rev. 12:So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went away to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep God’s commandments and hold to the testimony about Jesus.

In your viw, TH, who is the woman and who is the rest of her offspring?

Again, a easy question. Who are those who hold to the testimony of Christ Jesus? Who are those who truly follow the commandments of God? who would Jesus call His mother, brother and sister? Again, if one were to think that this was a future event, as I do think, then one would easily see that this statement refers directly to what happens after those in Judea flee to the mountains. The Great Tribulation. Thanks for highlighting that for me. You make my work a lot easier.

How so? We believe he is spiritually bound and defeated. He is powerless to stop the spread of the gospel until the time of his little season. He has no power whatsoever over us. We merely have to put on the armor of God and resist him and he has to flee.



See the post I just made to third hero. What is your interpretation of passages like 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15?


ok, show me a scripture that says Jesus came to bind Satan.

As for 1 John 3:8 He came to destroy the works of the devil. Show me where it says he came to bind Satan. The works of the devil are we do before we are saved. That is why Jesus died on the cross, to save us.

The key is in verse 9, No One who is born of God will continue to sin. Translation: when we get saved we stop doing the works of the devil and do the works of God. This is how we know we are saved.

Making a doctrine out of this verse is a very far stretch.

The answer is not found in Heb 14-15 but if you read further down in Verse 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become mericful and faithful high priest in in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Again, nothing to make a doctrine out of. Jesus came to save us.

Do you really think Jesus would have to die on a cross to defeat Satan?

Every time a person comes to the Lord, Satan is defeated. Every time a believer triumphs over a temptation that Satan lays out for him or her to stumble on, Satan is defeated. It did not end at the Cross, it started there. His final defeat will be when Christ hands the world over to Father God, to be destroyed, after Satan's time of imprisonment.

I didn't say it ended at the cross. The cross is what sealed his defeat. We are just waiting now for the consummation or finality of that defeat to occur. In other words, there isn't any chance that he will not ultimately be cast into the lake because it is already written. He is defeated, he continues to be defeated and he will finally be destroyed for good when Christ returns and casts him into the lake of fire that was prepared for him and his angels.



Again, see what I have written above for my response.

Before Christ came Satan had the power of death. After Christ's death, he didn't. Before Christ came, Satan deceived the Gentile nations into worshiping false gods and idols. After Christ came, he could no longer keep the Gentiles from being deceived as a whole and not having a relationship with God. He could not stop the gospel of Christ from going into those nations and saving millions. That's how I see the binding of Satan, as a spiritual binding of a spiritual being and not as a physical binding of a physical being. Anyway, we should probably return to the original topic now which had to do with whether heaven and earth and all unbelievers are destroyed upon the return of Christ. Maybe we can start another thread discussing the binding of Satan.

ok, show me a scripture that says Jesus came to bind Satan.

I already have. Matthew 12:26-27, Mark 3:26-27 and Luke 11:20-22. The strong man is Satan and he was bound by Christ.



As for 1 John 3:8 He came to destroy the works of the devil. Show me where it says he came to bind Satan. The works of the devil are we do before we are saved. That is why Jesus died on the cross, to save us.

The key is in verse 9, No One who is born of God will continue to sin. Translation: when we get saved we stop doing the works of the devil and do the works of God. This is how we know we are saved.

And how are we saved? By the shed blood of Christ on the cross.



Making a doctrine out of this verse is a very far stretch.

I would agree which is why my doctrine is based on several verses and not just one.




The answer is not found in Heb 14-15 but if you read further down in Verse 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become mericful and faithful high priest in in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Again, nothing to make a doctrine out of. Jesus came to save us.

Do you really think Jesus would have to die on a cross to defeat Satan?

He didn't have to, but that's how He did it. I believe you are explaining passages like 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15 away in order to suit your doctrine. The words in those passsages are clear.

Again, a easy question. Who are those who hold to the testimony of Christ Jesus? Who are those who truly follow the commandments of God? who would Jesus call His mother, brother and sister? Again, if one were to think that this was a future event, as I do think, then one would easily see that this statement refers directly to what happens after those in Judea flee to the mountains. The Great Tribulation. Thanks for highlighting that for me. You make my work a lot easier.


Therefore you do not believe that descendants of the woman could possibly be all believers in Christ down through the ages from the original Jewish believers who brought the Gospel to the world. You do not believe the woman who gave birth to Christ was the Jewish race? Its so simple that you missed it again.

I already have. Matthew 12:26-27, Mark 3:26-27 and Luke 11:20-22. The strong man is Satan and he was bound by Christ.



And how are we saved? By the shed blood of Christ on the cross.



I would agree which is why my doctrine is based on several verses and not just one.



He didn't have to, but that's how He did it. I believe you are explaining passages like 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14-15 away in order to suit your doctrine. The words in those passsages are clear.


The binding of the stong man is a parable, one in which Jesus says he already has power over since he was responding to parisees that claimed he was casting out devils by satans power. There is no menetion of him having to 1st die on a cross to bind him.

Again, you make a doctrine out of a parable this time.


yes you are right, we are saved by the shed blood on the cross, its what i have been saying all along.

I didn't explain passages in 1st John 3:8 and in Heb. I showed you verses that explain them.

The binding of the stong man is a parable, one in which Jesus says he already has power over since he was responding to parisees that claimed he was casting out devils by satans power. There is no menetion of him having to 1st die on a cross to bind him.

Again, you make a doctrine out of a parable this time.


yes you are right, we are saved by the shed blood on the cross, its what i have been saying all along.

I didn't explain passages in 1st John 3:8 and in Heb. I showed you verses that explain them.


If you don't let Scripture interpret Scripture then we get your kind of answer that it was just a parable.

If you don't let Scripture interpret Scripture then we get your kind of answer that it was just a parable.


I didn't say it was just a parable, I said its a parable that doesn't show that Jesus died on the cross to bind satan. That would be forcing scripture to interpret scripture. Furthermore, making a doctrine out of a parable is just a bad idea.

I did however use scripture to show why Jesus came and it was to save us.

ok, show me a scripture that says Jesus came to bind Satan.

As for 1 John 3:8 He came to destroy the works of the devil. Show me where it says he came to bind Satan. The works of the devil are we do before we are saved. That is why Jesus died on the cross, to save us.

The key is in verse 9, No One who is born of God will continue to sin. Translation: when we get saved we stop doing the works of the devil and do the works of God. This is how we know we are saved.

Making a doctrine out of this verse is a very far stretch.

The answer is not found in Heb 14-15 but if you read further down in Verse 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become mericful and faithful high priest in in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Again, nothing to make a doctrine out of. Jesus came to save us.

Do you really think Jesus would have to die on a cross to defeat Satan?

Genesis 3:15 says,“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo(Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22,“if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Christ predicted the historic and eternal effect that the Cross would have upon Satan. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

I John 3:8 declares, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or dissolve or melt up) the works of the devil.”

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And theyovercame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Paul

Genesis 3:15 says,“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo(Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22,“if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Christ predicted the historic and eternal effect that the Cross would have upon Satan. Jesus prophesied, “now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die” (John 12:31-33).

I John 3:8 declares, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or dissolve or melt up) the works of the devil.”

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other. Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And theyovercame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Paul

The verses have been addressed in previous posts

The verses have been addressed in previous posts

From what I can see they have been circumvented. Clearly Amil has much corroboration. Maybe you could tell be in response what Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

Paul

While trying to prove that the "Strong man" in Luke 11 is Satan, although Satan is not a man at all, the point, the original point that Christ made is lost. The parable was to highlight His original point, and that is this:

But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth. - Luke 11:17

In other words, Jesus challenged the pharisees trhat said this:

But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. -Luke 11:15

Jesus is not even talking about the cross or His death. He is exclusiovely talking about the authority He uses to casts out demons.

Now to put this in perspective. When a person is possessed by a demon, the person's will is enslaved to the demon posessing him or her. If one tried to casts out a demon in the name of the kingd of demons, then one would find it to be of no effect, because the house of Satan is united. Therefore, in order for the person to be released from the posession of Satan, the authority of that leader of the demon must be bound, in order to have the evil spirit removed from the body of the one posessed. This is what Jesus explained to the people, and this only.

Therefore, one can not bind the authority of the devil by proclaiming the name of the devil. One can only do so by proclaiming the authority and name of the one who is stronger than the devil, and that is God. This is what Christ was explaining to the people, and not about something concerning what would happen at the Cross. this is why we say, "In the name of Jesus, demon come out", instead of saying "Demon come out". If one tries to use his or her own authority, which he or she does not have, then that person will not only fail to casts out the demon, but subject theirselves to being posessed themselves. Therefore, to bind the power of the strong man, one must invoke one even stronger, Jesus.

Now that you have the lesson of casting out demons, one might want to stop using this passagfe to define what Christ did not define when He said it.

The setting and the demon possessed man was simply an opportunity for Christ to articulate a deep spiritual truth. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided. The house that Christ was referring to was the kingdom of darkness. He shows this when He said: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand.” The house is the kingdom of darkness, and the goods are the ungodly that belong to that kingdom. The house here is not speaking of an individual but an abode of which the Jews accused Christ of belonging to. They suggested that his power came “by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” They insinuated that Christ was from Satan, not God. Christ showed that if He was part of the same kingdom as the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s kingdom was divided. The devil’s house was split in two. The opposite was of course the truth. He was of another kingdom – the kingdom of God. What Jesus was saying here was: the strongman – who rules this house (kingdom) – had to be bound before Christ could plunder this house and acquire his goods.

That is why He concluded: “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.” Christ was showing that He was not of Satan’s house. He was of another house – He was of the kingdom of heaven. What is more, He was demonstrating how He had to bind Satan in order to effectively enter into his house and “spoil his goods.” To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and penetrate Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the incursion into the devil’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and translated him into newness of life. Christ has being doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to His death. Christ identifies the casting out of devils with the binding of the strong man. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and locates his binding at the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not curtail this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ. The chains that were placed on the devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God was plundering his house. Many from within the kingdom of darkness had now changed camps. The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer called the shots. They would now operate within very definite parameters soverignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions.

The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his very word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Paul

ok, show me a scripture that says Jesus came to bind Satan.

As for 1 John 3:8 He came to destroy the works of the devil. Show me where it says he came to bind Satan. The works of the devil are we do before we are saved. That is why Jesus died on the cross, to save us.

The key is in verse 9, No One who is born of God will continue to sin. Translation: when we get saved we stop doing the works of the devil and do the works of God. This is how we know we are saved.

Making a doctrine out of this verse is a very far stretch.

The answer is not found in Heb 14-15 but if you read further down in Verse 17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become mericful and faithful high priest in in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Again, nothing to make a doctrine out of. Jesus came to save us.

Do you really think Jesus would have to die on a cross to defeat Satan?

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (or) katargeo him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

The Greek word katargeo used here to describe the fate that befell Satan is interpreted in different ways in the New Testament such as ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Satan certainly sustained a blow that impaired or restricted his movement. Undoubtedly, Satan's power to hold the nations in captivity was assaulted so that Christ could set the prisoner free throughout the nations. The Gentiles, who had been blinded for 4,000 years by the devil, would now see. The Gentiles that were nearly all pagan before the cross have been availed the wonderful opportunity to come to salvation through the victory of the cross and the consequential defeat of Satan. Whilst the majority are not saved, that doesn’t stop the nations been privileged with the truth. The Gentiles can no longer claim ignorance. Notwithstanding, the presence of the Gospel and the acceptance of the Gospel are two completely different things. The presence of the Gospel never resulted in wholesale salvation to any nation, that is demonstrated even in the Old Testament where most Israelis rejected God’s offer of salvation. There was always only ever been a remnant amongst those who were privileged to hear the Gospel.

Millions of Gentiles today have availed the opportunity to be free from the awful grasp of Satan. This comes solely thought the powerful preaching of the glorious Gospel of Christ. Satan is defeated where the Gospel light succeeds. Notwithstanding, he is doing his utmost to hinder the free-spread of the Gospel, as it is the power of God unto salvation. This is a losing battle. He is spiritually restrained from preventing the Gospel to be freely preached throughout the world in his own territory. Notwithstanding, a time is coming when Satan will be loosed again and he will deceive the nations as he did in Old Testament times and make war with the saints. This will occur before the end.

Paul

Something happened to Satan at the Cross. What do you think it was?

Something happened to Christ more than happened to Satan.

Something happened to Christ more than happened to Satan.

Huh? Well ok, what happened to Christ was that He became victorious over death and became the first fruits over all creation. That's a good happening right?

What happened to Satan is defeat and eternal destruction.

Is that what you meant? Although you still failed to answer my question. Its not a trick question but only my way to cause the possiblity of deeper thought and searching the Scriptures.

From what I can see they have been circumvented. Clearly Amil has much corroboration. Maybe you could tell be in response what Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

Paul

Why does Rev 20 need to be corroborated? Does a verse have to be said more than once for it to be true? I stand on what it says. You guys throw around alot of accusations but in the end it is not my doctrine that needs to be explained by twisting other verses.

Huh? Well ok, what happened to Christ was that He became victorious over death and became the first fruits over all creation. That's a good happening right?


What happened to Satan is defeat and eternal destruction.

No. Satan is not yet defeated or destroyed. The process is started and the end is guaranteed but Satan wasn't destroyed or bound or etc at the cross.

Why does Rev 20 need to be corroborated? Does a verse have to be said more than once for it to be true? I stand on what it says. You guys throw around alot of accusations but in the end it is not my doctrine that needs to be explained by twisting other verses.

I believe the Premil view of Rev 20 contradicts repeated Scripture. By your own admition it has no other corroborative support elsewhere. 2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.” When we see that the Premil view of Rev 20 is out of sink with the rest of Scripture it is wise to question it.

Paul

No. Satan is not yet defeated or destroyed. The process is started and the end is guaranteed but Satan wasn't destroyed or bound or etc at the cross.

Please exegete the verses I presented above.

Paul

I believe the Premil view of Rev 20 contradicts repeated Scripture.



2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.” When we see that the Premil view of Rev 20 is out of sink with the rest of Scripture it is wise to question it.

Paul


None of that is true. The view of Rev 20 is perfectly in line with the rest of Rev and scripture as a whole. If anything it is the Amill/Preterist view that twists it into something unrecognizeable.

None of that is true. The view of Rev 20 is perfectly in line with the rest of Rev and scripture as a whole. If anything it is the Amill/Preterist view that twists it into something unrecognizeable.

Ok, the first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

Paul

The setting and the demon possessed man was simply an opportunity for Christ to articulate a deep spiritual truth. The Lord did this often. What he was saying to these religious hypocrites was, if I am of the same wicked house as that represented by the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s house is divided. The house that Christ was referring to was the kingdom of darkness. He shows this when He said: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand.” The house is the kingdom of darkness, and the goods are the ungodly that belong to that kingdom. The house here is not speaking of an individual but an abode of which the Jews accused Christ of belonging to. They suggested that his power came “by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” They insinuated that Christ was from Satan, not God. Christ showed that if He was part of the same kingdom as the demon (He was casting out) then Satan’s kingdom was divided. The devil’s house was split in two. The opposite was of course the truth. He was of another kingdom – the kingdom of God. What Jesus was saying here was: the strongman – who rules this house (kingdom) – had to be bound before Christ could plunder this house and acquire his goods.

That is why He concluded: “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.” Christ was showing that He was not of Satan’s house. He was of another house – He was of the kingdom of heaven. What is more, He was demonstrating how He had to bind Satan in order to effectively enter into his house and “spoil his goods.” To enter the strong man’s house was to come to earth and penetrate Satan’s kingdom with salvation and deliverance. Christ’s earthly ministry commenced the incursion into the devil’s house and the cross secured the legal binding. The blind and dumb man in this story belonged to the devil’s kingdom. Christ entered Satan’s evil house and translated him into newness of life. Christ has being doing this ever since. There can be no other interpretation to take from this.

Remember, this was just prior to His death. Christ identifies the casting out of devils with the binding of the strong man. Christ was here specifically referring to Satan (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and locates his binding at the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not curtail this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ. The chains that were placed on the devils were ones that curtailed their movement. They could not do as they once did amongst the heathen. God was plundering his house. Many from within the kingdom of darkness had now changed camps. The binding spoken of here is obviously a spiritual restraint. Of course, the devil is the leader of the demonic realm. He is the representative of this vile house. When Scripture speaks of the binding of Satan it is inclusive of the whole kingdom he heads up. Through the Lord’s earthly ministry, Satan and his fallen angels were subject to a new arrangement – a playing field wherein he no longer called the shots. They would now operate within very definite parameters soverignly set by God. Christ had entered his territory and successfully took authority over his minions.

The apex of this was of course the cross. That sealed Satan’s destiny and rendered him incapacitated in his activities.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his very word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Paul

I do not understand this at all. Jesus was not talking about the cross at all, and yet you all equate the parable of Christ binding the strong man to Christ binding Satan on the cross where there is not one scripture that even hints towards such a thing happening at that point. This boggles my mind how even in the face of sound doctrine, you continue to expound on things that are completely unrelated.

I do not understand this at all. Jesus was not talking about the cross at all, and yet you all equate the parable of Christ binding the strong man to Christ binding Satan on the cross where there is not one scripture that even hints towards such a thing happening at that point. This boggles my mind how even in the face of sound doctrine, you continue to expound on things that are completely unrelated.


I don't know how anyone gets "satan was bound at the cross" from that parable either. Since this discussion took place before the cross and it was a reference to the fact that the pharisee's were accusing Jesus of casting out demons by the power of satan.
Jesus was letting them know, "I am stronger than satan and I am casting them out by the power of God. If I were doing it by the power of satan, then how would satan's kingdom stand?" "Therefore, it is not by satan that I do this, but by God I do this". The old saying from this same parable that goes "a house divided against itself cannot stand". That's all it's about, it's not a literal "binding" going on there, you'll notice He then goes on to discuss where the cast out demons go, "into a dry place and finds no rest, so it returns". If Jesus were binding satan at that point, then why would he leave the demons free to return to the possessed?



And since we are on this topic, I beleive that whole "returns to a clean empty house, and brings 7 others with him" comment is about the final state of Israel before Jesus returns. Since Jesus said something about a house, not a body, and Israel was often referred to as a house. And we know that majority of Israel has not excepted Jesus as their Messiah, so they swept up and yet the house is still empty.

Ok, the first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove.

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

Paul

Here Napal,
I'll spare you the time to write this down, for I have already done the work. For those who need to see Revelation 19-20 colabborated, read this post. http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1237875&postcount=24 Then we can go on with the business of proving the millennium or disproving it.

BTW. I think this is pertinent to the disacussion. A side by side comparison of Revelation 20:4-6 and Daniel 7:22

For starters, according to Revelation 20:5-6, only those who were beheaded due to the Great Tribulation are those who are resurrected. They are judged and are given the priviledge of ruling the heathen with Christ. This does not include all of the saints, and it matches directly to the passage in Daniel 7. Take a look.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:5-6
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Wow, look at that, you find most of that scripture in those three verses. How could that be if Revelation 20 is made up? How could this be if Revelation was just introducing something that was never in the Bible before? Too much coincidences to be ignored, if you ask me.

Actually, if you read our posts a little more carefully you will see that no one has said that the binding of the strong man didn't begin happening until Jesus's death on the cross. It already started before that with the unprecedented casting out of demons, not only by Jesus but by His disciples as well. The binding of Satan was already beginning just before Jesus death on the cross. Jesus was already giving His disciples a taste of the unprecedented power over the enemy that the Old Testament saints did not have but New Testament saints have still today.

But the final nail in Satan's coffin, so to speak, occurred on the cross. Colossians 2:15 says that Christ spoiled principalities and powers (which we know is speaking of evil spirits/demons) and made a show of them openly, triumphing over them on the cross. Hebrews 2:14-15 says that Christ, by His death, took away the power of death from Satan and set people free who had been in bondage to the fear of death that Satan used against them. That is when the power of death and the ability of Satan to prevent the truth from penetrating into the world was taken away for good. Or until Satan's little season, anyway. Once Jesus said, "It is finished", Satan was finished as far as what he was able to do before that time, which was to deceive the Gentile nations and keep them in spiritual darkness. People that he used to be able to keep in bondage to the fear of death were about to be set free with the gospel going out into the whole world. Because of Christ, people in the Gentile nations became worthy to be called the people of God while in Old Testament times they were not the people of God (1 Peter 2:9-10). Satan was restrained and bound from stopping the spread of the gospel and keeping people in bondage as he had done before in the Gentile nations. The current weak state of the Church prevents people from seeing how powerfully the gospel was spread througout the world in the 1st century. Sadly, in today's Church, we, as a whole, do not tap into the power that God has for us over the enemy as they did back then. They were much more bold back then as a whole than we are now. Part of that has to do with overestimating the power of the enemy and forgetting that all we have to do is merely resist the enemy and he will flee.

Here's a simple and straightforward question for all premills: Did Jesus's first coming make a huge difference in Satan's ability to deceive the Gentile nations or not?

I do not understand this at all. Jesus was not talking about the cross at all, and yet you all equate the parable of Christ binding the strong man to Christ binding Satan on the cross where there is not one scripture that even hints towards such a thing happening at that point. This boggles my mind how even in the face of sound doctrine, you continue to expound on things that are completely unrelated.

This is not a parable. You have to symbolise a lot away to let Premil fit. It is a spiritual truth. Satan - the strongman - had to be bound before the Lord could plunder his house. Significantly, the Greek word deo(Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and deo(or) bound him a thousand years (or a long time), And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”

Ok, let us establish a few absolutes here. (1) This is talking about a binding long before the Second Coming. It is speaking of a time 2,000 years ago. (2) This is referring to Satan and his minions - most theologians seem to be in agreement here. (3) This is talking about Satan's dwelling which relates to his abode (his "house") and his possessions (his "goods"). (4) The binding is expressly spiritual and relates to the demonic realm. (5) This relates the presence of the kingdom in all its power to the damaging and curtailing of the power of Satan's kingdom.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22,“if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. However, his grip was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.

Paul

Here Napal,
I'll spare you the time to write this down, for I have already done the work. For those who need to see Revelation 19-20 colabborated, read this post. http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1237875&postcount=24 Then we can go on with the business of proving the millennium or disproving it.

BTW. I think this is pertinent to the disacussion. A side by side comparison of Revelation 20:4-6 and Daniel 7:22

For starters, according to Revelation 20:5-6, only those who were beheaded due to the Great Tribulation are those who are resurrected. They are judged and are given the priviledge of ruling the heathen with Christ. This does not include all of the saints, and it matches directly to the passage in Daniel 7. Take a look.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:5-6
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Wow, look at that, you find most of that scripture in those three verses. How could that be if Revelation 20 is made up? How could this be if Revelation was just introducing something that was never in the Bible before? Too much coincidences to be ignored, if you ask me.

Again you keep avoiding the issues. Please tell us what Scripture, if any, you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed? Don't get sidetracked on unrelated issues.

From what I can see you are using Rev 20 to interpret Rev 20. That is not what I asked.

As I have shown you repeatedly, Dan 7 says nothing re the question I am asking.

Paul

Again you keep avoiding the issues. Please tell us what Scripture, if any, you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed? Don't get sidetracked on unrelated issues.

From what I can see you are using Rev 20 to interpret Rev 20. That is not what I asked.

As I have shown you repeatedly, Dan 7 says nothing re the question I am asking.

Paul



I don't think it can be done, Paul, because it is based on emotion and not Scriptural evidence. But they deserve their chance if they are interested and hopefully they will explain with their evidence.

Actually, if you read our posts a little more carefully you will see that no one has said that the binding of the strong man didn't begin happening until Jesus's death on the cross. It already started before that with the unprecedented casting out of demons, not only by Jesus but by His disciples as well. The binding of Satan was already beginning just before Jesus death on the cross. Jesus was already giving His disciples a taste of the unprecedented power over the enemy that the Old Testament saints did not have but New Testament saints have still today.

But the final nail in Satan's coffin, so to speak, occurred on the cross. Colossians 2:15 says that Christ spoiled principalities and powers (which we know is speaking of evil spirits/demons) and made a show of them openly, triumphing over them on the cross. Hebrews 2:14-15 says that Christ, by His death, took away the power of death from Satan and set people free who had been in bondage to the fear of death that Satan used against them. That is when the power of death and the ability of Satan to prevent the truth from penetrating into the world was taken away for good. Or until Satan's little season, anyway. Once Jesus said, "It is finished", Satan was finished as far as what he was able to do before that time, which was to deceive the Gentile nations and keep them in spiritual darkness. People that he used to be able to keep in bondage to the fear of death were about to be set free with the gospel going out into the whole world. Because of Christ, people in the Gentile nations became worthy to be called the people of God while in Old Testament times they were not the people of God (1 Peter 2:9-10). Satan was restrained and bound from stopping the spread of the gospel and keeping people in bondage as he had done before in the Gentile nations. The current weak state of the Church prevents people from seeing how powerfully the gospel was spread througout the world in the 1st century. Sadly, in today's Church, we, as a whole, do not tap into the power that God has for us over the enemy as they did back then. They were much more bold back then as a whole than we are now. Part of that has to do with overestimating the power of the enemy and forgetting that all we have to do is merely resist the enemy and he will flee.

Here's a simple and straightforward question for all premills: Did Jesus's first coming make a huge difference in Satan's ability to deceive the Gentile nations or not?

Again, you are missing the point. Satan did not have to be bound in order to have the gospel spread throughout the world. Jesus is much strongewr than Satan, therefore by virtue of the fact that Jesus is the Son of God gives all who believe in Him the ability to defeat Satan everywhere, without the need to bind him. This is what we have been saying.

You want to tie Revelation 20 into today, and remove the thought of the Millennium, and even more so, Revelation 20. We saythat Revelation 20 is very relevant and also, it has not happened yet. It s not a simple matter of a disagreement of whether Satan was bound atthe Cross or not. Therefore, let's not attempt to confuse the issue. Revelation 20:1-10 has not happened yet, and we premils want to ensure the people that the Bible is not a a bunch of fabrications. Satan was not bound at the Cross, he was defeated. Even the scriptures you produced made certain of what happened at the Cross.

To wpm and beofgoodcourage. It still boggles me how you ignore scriptures that disprove what you are asserting. It goes to reason that even when the ASA started their own thread to prove their doctrine is sound, it still falls on it's face in light of sound doctrine. You charge that Revelation 20 is a lone-wolf chapter, and even asserting that it was not a part of the original scripture, when it was. Why? Bewcasue like Martin Luther and the book of James, Revelation 20 serves as the thorn in your side that completely dsisproves your doctrine. Prove that Revelation 20 is made up when we can, and have, shown how Zechariah 14 and Daniel 7 colabborates with Revelation 20. We have even shown that Isaiah 65 proves the charge that Revelation 20 asserts, and yet the ASA, like the OSAS with the Book of James, ignore these scriptures or else attempt to change the meanings of words or otherwise change the words in order to fit their view.

I am sorry, but there is no use talking , because you reject the understanding we have of the scripture that proves our views. So go on ahead and continue in your doctrine, but I do say this, do not attempt to derail ours, because like every single time you do, there will be those like me that derail yours

You charge that Revelation 20 is a lone-wolf chapter, and even asserting that it was not a part of the original scripture


We certainly have not but instead have given biblical support to it. Something that has not been done by the other point of view. You have given Zech 14 and the such as your evidence but it has only proved that it is based on your point of view that you interpret them that way. Where as we give the very words of Christ, for example, that show that, yes indeed, Satan has been bound by the power of God through the Gospel. Something you discount as something not need ing to be done. You said, and I quote:


Satan did not have to be bound in order to have the gospel spread


What a statement against the words of Christ Who said that in fact it was done byt the very means you deny were required. By what other power over earth was this binding done? Certainly you don't side with those Jesus was responding to, so by what power and for what purpose was this done?

3H


You charge that Revelation 20 is a lone-wolf chapter, and even asserting that it was not a part of the original scripture, when it was. Why? Bewcasue like Martin Luther and the book of James, Revelation 20 serves as the thorn in your side that completely dsisproves your doctrine. Prove that Revelation 20 is made up when we can, and have, shown how Zechariah 14 and Daniel 7 colabborates with Revelation 20.

What Amil has ever said that Rev 20 is not in the original Scripture? This is just one of many lies you hurl and which should be sensored by the Mods here.

Anyway, neither Zechariah 14 and Daniel 7 teaches this theory of 2 resurrections seperated by 1,000 yrs.


We have even shown that Isaiah 65 proves the charge that Revelation 20 asserts, and yet the ASA, like the OSAS with the Book of James, intentionally ignore these scriptures or else attempt to change the meanings of words or otherwise change the words in order to fit their view.

Isa 65 relates to the end of the millennium and refers to the eternal state that is ushered in at Christ's return. Whether you like it or not is is expressly speaking of the new heavens and new earth.

Paul

I believe the Premil view of Rev 20 contradicts repeated Scripture. By your own admition it has no other corroborative support elsewhere. 2 Peter 1:20 says, “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.” When we see that the Premil view of Rev 20 is out of sink with the rest of Scripture it is wise to question it.

Paul

Please show me where I admitted that there is no other scripture?

This seems to be the problem with you guys, always talking liberty with everyones statements and or scripture to fit what you want.

I never admitted any such thing.

Rev 20 is not a private interepation (which by the way you missquoting as well, please read entire chapter of 2 Peter 1) It says what it says, Premill didn't come along and adopt this passage, it adopted us. It says what it says. It doesn't need to be explained away, it needs to be embraced.

Again, you are missing the point. Satan did not have to be bound in order to have the gospel spread throughout the world. Jesus is much strongewr than Satan, therefore by virtue of the fact that Jesus is the Son of God gives all who believe in Him the ability to defeat Satan everywhere, without the need to bind him. This is what we have been saying.

You want to tie Revelation 20 into today, and remove the thought of the Millennium, and even more so, Revelation 20. We saythat Revelation 20 is very relevant and also, it has not happened yet. It s not a simple matter of a disagreement of whether Satan was bound atthe Cross or not. Therefore, let's not attempt to confuse the issue. Revelation 20:1-10 has not happened yet, and we premils want to ensure the people that the Bible is not a a bunch of fabrications. Satan was not bound at the Cross, he was defeated. Even the scriptures you produced made certain of what happened at the Cross.

I would say there is no real difference between him being bound and being defeated. You have a different opinion. I'll respect that and refrain from the antagonistic and insulting remarks that you like to throw around.



To wpm and beofgoodcourage. It still boggles me how you blatantly ignore scriptures that disprove what you are asserting.

Blatantly ignoring Scripture. That's quite a serious accusation. Can you read their minds? I find Paul (wpm) to be as thorough in his study of Scripture as anyone in this forum. Certainly far more thorough than yourself. Yet you say he blatantly ignores Scriptures. That is simply a false accusation.



It goes to reason that even when the ASA started their own thread to prove their doctrine is sound, it still falls on it's face in light of sound doctrine. You charge that Revelation 20 is a lone-wolf chapter, and even asserting that it was not a part of the original scripture, when it was.

Amiils charge Revelation 20 as a lone-wolf chapter? Are we just putting on a show by bringing up these other passages that we believe supports our view of Revelation 20 then? Even if you disagree with our interpretations of those passages, you can hardly say that we treat Revelation 20 as a lone-wolf chapter. Just another false accusation on your part.



casue like Martin Luther and the book of James, Revelation 20 serves as the thorn in your side that completely dsisproves your doctrine. Prove that Revelation 20 is made up when we can, and have, shown how Zechariah 14 and Daniel 7 colabborates with Revelation 20. We have even shown that Isaiah 65 proves the charge that Revelation 20 asserts, and yet the ASA, like the OSAS with the Book of James, intentionally ignore these scriptures or else attempt to change the meanings of words or otherwise change the words in order to fit their view.

We could certainly say the same about the way you interpret passages like Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 17:26-30, John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2 Peter 3:4-13, 1 Corinthians 15:20-26, Matthew 13:24-30,36-43, Revelation 14:14-20 and Revelation 19:15-21, among others.



I am sorry, but there is no use talking to such as you, because you will never sccept scripture that proves our views.

You have far from proven anything. You give references to chapters that we believe you misinterpret. You rarely break the passages down so that we can clearly see what you're saying. You just continually make broad statements and throw out insults. That doesn't prove anything.



So go on ahead and continue in your doctrine

Okay :D




, but I do say this, do not attempt to derail ours, because like every single time you do, there will be those like me that derail yours with sound doctrine.

I'm not so sure how sound your doctrine is, but I'm willing to continue to discuss these things in a civilized and respectful manner if you are. It appears that you're not willing to do that, though.

Why could not the Pharisees and Saducees accept that Jesus was the Messiah? partly it was because they looked at scriptures and interpreted that the Messiah ought to be a literal King. Well, that is true but he was also to be a suffering servant. It did not even cross their mind that the messiah they were looking for could come twice (or perhaps more than that) to fulfill all the promises that are contained in the scriptures. Thinking along the same lines, could there be more than one day of the Lord?

Reading 2 Peter 3:10 in the original:

shall pass away - parerchomai - can also mean give way...Heavens will give way?

elements - stoicheion - can also mean principalities as in evil spiritual authorities and hierarchies...Good example is Galatians 4:3

the earth - ge - the land...e.g. Matthew 2:20 - "...go into the (ge) land of Israel.

1 Peter 3:10, could be better interpreted from the original as such:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens give way with a great noise, and the principalities shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the land that are therein shall be burned up."

Scripture has to interpret scripture and when we use scripture to interpret scripture, there is a strong agreement for the thousand year rule of Christ.

Hello; :)

Since we believe the Bible ought to be interpreted in light of the other statements it makes about the same subject, we should probably also add texts to the one in 1 Peter like the following:

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

JER 25:33 "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground."

ZEPH 1:2-3 "I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the Lord. I will consume man and beasts; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the shrines with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord

And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord; and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as dung.


ISAIAH 24:
24:1"Behold the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
24:3The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled; for the Lord hath spoken this word.
24:5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof: because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [*note; no "earthly millenium of peace" etc, is going to take place with Christ apparently reigning on a "defiled" earth].
24:6Therefore, the curse hath devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned and few men left. [-or a "cursed" and "desolate" earth.]
24:13 When thus, it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning of grapes when the vintage is done.
24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Will the Millenium take place on a "cursed","defiled",earth with the cities "broken down" at the "presence of the Lord" and with the dead bodies of the wicked multitudes strewn from one end of it to the other?

I don't think so,because when Jesus returns it will be to take His faithful people to be where He is, and it will be at that place and at that time that the Millenium takes place (in heaven) prior to the complete destruction of the world that will prepare the way for a newly created heaven and earth.

For that reason, 2 Peter chapter 3 explains,"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So we have something much better to look for than an "earthly reign" of a "Messiah" for a thousand years. We have a completely pure newly created heaven and earth to enjoy for all eternity, "wherein dwelleth righteousness"(2 Peter 3:13).


"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind (Is 65:17).


We may ask ourselves about the last passage; If the millenium on earth teaching will be such a wonderful experience; why will it not come to mind (according to the above); and why also would the Lord destroy the earth after this Millenial period if it is to be something even remotely desireable and such a supposed popular teaching that is supposed to light up the Scriptures?

The only answer I would offer is that the concept of the earthly millenium as has become widely popular in these last days is in error, and that God has something infinitely more desireable for the inheritance of His people.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I don't think so,because when Jesus returns it will be to take His faithful people to be where He is, and it will be at that place and at that time that the Millenium takes place (in heaven) prior to the complete destruction of the world that will prepare the way for a newly created heaven and earth.


The Mill. takes place everywhere because it's a period of time but the focus is upon the earth because that's where Jesus returns to and stays.