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Righton
May 6th 2007, 09:27 PM
In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.

Faithwalker
May 6th 2007, 09:53 PM
Are there those here who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ?
If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.



Oh let me count the ways people will use to get around the unmovable Word :hmm: :lol: (sorry, not here to give a rebuttal) :saint:

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Righton
May 6th 2007, 10:02 PM
Oh no, please, Faithwalker. I have invited someone from the thread where this was discussed, because I felt it was going off-topic to discuss this matter. But anyone who wants to give me MORE ammo, feel free! :)

Faithwalker
May 6th 2007, 10:09 PM
Carry on then...get down to the roots :)


Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Righton
May 6th 2007, 10:42 PM
The case of Esau is, I think, a good one.

It is my own interpretation that he went the other way. When he learned that Jacob had gone to their mother's relatives for a wife and knew for certain that his partents did not approve of Canaanite women, he went and got a wife from Ishmael, his uncle. And then later, he forgave Jacob for getting his birthright and after that, it says that Jacob and Esau farmed together, had their herds near each other, so that Esau ran out of space, moved to Edom, and Jacob wound up with most of Isaac's inheritance, as he was supposed to.

But earlier in his life, Esau was very unspiritual as the scripture says. I think he had an unofficial revelation after Jacob had left for Upper Mesopotamia.

But one scripture I had posted was about Paul's former friend, Demas. 2 Timothy 4:10 (New International Version)

10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia.

This says to me that Demas forsook Paul and fell back in love with the world and left the Way of Christ.

If the member who posted the other post does move here as I have now invited him, I will know he is sincere. Though I suppose I COULD HAVE gone to the moderators to let them know his post was off-topic, I prefer to not bother anybody if I can help it and take care of things myself. So if he shows up, I will know he was sincere. If not, I guess he was into one-upmanship.

I am going off-line now. Thanks for chatting with me, Faithwalker.

threebigrocks
May 6th 2007, 11:30 PM
So long as this maintains the tone it has so far, along the lines of learning and teaching than my view vs. yours, it can continue here. If the line is crossed it will be moved to Bible Chat.

Braves27
May 11th 2007, 05:47 AM
This scripture is talking about a willful turn away from GOD....as in, a Christian who becomes an atheist or a Muslim or a whatever. That shows that you KNEW the truth, and the love and grace of GOD, and completely rejected it, and forsook it, and rejected GOD. Hebrews 10:26 tells us the same thing: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


So yes, it can definitely happen. It's just hard. I can't imagine how someone would know such a beautiful thing as the truth of the living GOD, and walk away from it.:cry:

okiepastor
May 14th 2007, 05:28 PM
Yes, one can turn from Christ. And, that is a serious thing. However, perhaps the operative question should be, does Christ turn from those who knew Him?

Let me share the witness of a friend. It is not mine, but his, but he loves to share it. I asked him, and he said, okay, go for it, so here it is. Take it for what it's worth.

He was raised in a non-Christian home. As a native American, his family worshipped in the "way of the Old Ones." When he was 14, he went with a friend to a tent revival, and, during the course of the event, became convinced that Y'Shua was the Way, the Truth, and the Light. He was baptized that very evening.

He went home, told his mother about it, and she turned, slapped him on the face, told him to "forget that white man's s*** and wash the dishes."

Needless to say, over a period of time, he fell away, and, as a musician (a very good rock guitarist and bassist) he became part of a Satanic band, playing in the south central and south western United States. He spent several years worshipping the Evil One, and then, to him, something didn't seem to add up, so he left that band and that coven, and went totally secular, playing the normal rock music.

One day, a band that was leading into his band, opening for them, I think is the term, played a couple Christian oriented songs, and he began to weep. That night, he fell to his knees, prayed for forgiveness, and so on, and was amazed to find that, during the entire time he'd been wirshipping the Evil One, Y'Shua had never been away from his side. The Lord had been his firm and staunch companion through all those years. He now runs a Christian band and a music ministry in a medium-sized town in Oklahoma.

So, the question maybe should be, if we fall away, do we then lose the Lord?

Sold Out
May 14th 2007, 06:15 PM
In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.

If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

I have personally known people who crossed God's line of mercy. They chose the world over God, (willfully) and walked away from God. Now they are miserable folks, who will never serve God again.

threebigrocks
May 14th 2007, 06:38 PM
If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

Saved again? Not following that notion.


A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Here Paul is saying that he keeps his flesh in check so it does not overtake his spirit and the will of God.

And, what test was Paul given each time he preached? Had he not preached of God, then what? Paul here was relaying what he attempts to do to keep himself from not being able to pass the test which is the test at judgement. That is the only test that matters. To say he was afraid of messing up and not to be used by God again is saying that Paul was not humble but prideful. That I think you may draw several arguements on. :)


Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

We can indeed trip and skin a knee. But the issue here is, per the Hebrews 6 verse in the OP and your example, did Paul know enough to have tasted the glory and mercy, to have known God and the Spirit to where falling away would have earned him eternal seperation from God?

How can we answer but yes.

2 Peter 2:20
May 15th 2007, 02:23 AM
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

What does "you are worse off at the end than at the beginning" mean? In the beginning before you escaped the corruption you were doomed to go to hell and it says we are worse off than that now. Why? Because we now know the way of the Lord but turn away from it.

With a screen name of 2 Peter 2:20 I guess I have to get in on this conversation! Combine this scripture with Heb.6:4 and Heb.10:26 and it is very hard to say you can't fall. Heb. 6:4 is not discussing your everyday kind of failure (sin) it is discussing apostasy. I'll try to explain it the best I can.

apostasy (Gk. (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1), apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a believer
Start with this definition and head toward Matt. 12:31.
Matt.12:31
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

We can see from this passage that there IS a sin that will not be forgiven!

Apostasy is blasphemy against the Spirit! Believing in your heart and confessing with your month and then getting to a point that you renounce the faith completely. From this state you can't return because you have denied the Spirit that lives in you (you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost).

From all other sins you can be restored if you confess and repent but from these you can't return.

Sold Out
May 15th 2007, 01:23 PM
Saved again? Not following that notion.



Here Paul is saying that he keeps his flesh in check so it does not overtake his spirit and the will of God.

And, what test was Paul given each time he preached? Had he not preached of God, then what? Paul here was relaying what he attempts to do to keep himself from not being able to pass the test which is the test at judgement. That is the only test that matters. To say he was afraid of messing up and not to be used by God again is saying that Paul was not humble but prideful. That I think you may draw several arguements on. :)



We can indeed trip and skin a knee. But the issue here is, per the Hebrews 6 verse in the OP and your example, did Paul know enough to have tasted the glory and mercy, to have known God and the Spirit to where falling away would have earned him eternal seperation from God?

How can we answer but yes.

Sorry, I disagree. If those who cling to Hebrews 6 to support losing salvation are going to stick with it, then they are going to have to admit that it states one can never be brought back to repentance....which means, NEVER SAVED AGAIN.

threebigrocks
May 15th 2007, 09:44 PM
Sorry, I disagree. If those who cling to Hebrews 6 to support losing salvation are going to stick with it, then they are going to have to admit that it states one can never be brought back to repentance....which means, NEVER SAVED AGAIN.

No. Once one falls away from Christ in that light, they can never be "resaved".

I stumble. You stumble. But that doesn't make us damned. What is spoken of here is fully knowing Christ, and turning away anyhow, deliberately.

And, there is much more than Hebrews 6 to support the idea of truly falling away from God.

Sold Out
May 16th 2007, 11:54 PM
No. Once one falls away from Christ in that light, they can never be "resaved".

I stumble. You stumble. But that doesn't make us damned. What is spoken of here is fully knowing Christ, and turning away anyhow, deliberately.

And, there is much more than Hebrews 6 to support the idea of truly falling away from God.

You are tiptoeing around this verse. It clearly states that one cannot have the knowledge of Christ, turn away willfully, and ever be brought back to repentance (salvation). This person can never be saved again.

I do not believe this verse supports you can lose salvation, because if it does, then there are many people who have no hope of ever being saved 'again'.

threebigrocks
May 17th 2007, 12:20 AM
I do not believe this verse supports you can lose salvation, because if it does, then there are many people who have no hope of ever being saved 'again'.

And that is why this topic is a hard one to accept at face value. I did not come to the understanding I did lightly, nor in a day. It took me months, and I took in both sides of the issue. I did not lean on my own understanding on this issue, but what was revealed to me by the Spirit through the Word.

This is not the proper forum to get into a debate, but am willing to step into this discussion in an A&E manner. (If you wish more debate on this in the manner please start a thread in Bible Chat.)

If someone you were sharing the gospel with mentioned their friend who seemed to be a Christian, but was disheartened from Christianity because their friend has stopped doing 'religious stuff', how would you reason that to them, yet not turn them away from Christianity? :hmm:

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 03:23 PM
If someone you were sharing the gospel with mentioned their friend who seemed to be a Christian, but was disheartened from Christianity because their friend has stopped doing 'religious stuff', how would you reason that to them, yet not turn them away from Christianity? :hmm:

First I would question whether or not that friend was 'truly saved'. A lot of people claim to be Christians, but by label only.

Secondly, I would explain to him that just because we get saved, does not mean our character changes immediately. Our destiny does. Character takes a lifetime. Christians battle their sin nature every single day, and if a Christian is not attending church regularly, studying God's Word and praying, then that usually explains an apathetic attitude towards Christianity. It doesn't, however, mean that that person is no longer saved.

threebigrocks
May 17th 2007, 03:32 PM
Secondly, I would explain to him that just because we get saved, does not mean our character changes immediately. Our destiny does. Character takes a lifetime. Christians battle their sin nature every single day, and if a Christian is not attending church regularly, studying God's Word and praying, then that usually explains an apathetic attitude towards Christianity. It doesn't, however, mean that that person is no longer saved.

Gonna play a bit of the 'devil's advocate' here. Anyone is welcome to jump in! By the way, we seem to be talking to a degree the same language, let's see if we can find the common ground this way. ;)

Let's say they then ask why would someone want to be a Christian if every day is a battle? I mean really, if I can be saved by saying some words and have my destiny change, why would anyone want to do have every day be bad?

Sold Out
May 17th 2007, 03:37 PM
Gonna play a bit of the 'devil's advocate' here. Anyone is welcome to jump in! By the way, we seem to be talking to a degree the same language, let's see if we can find the common ground this way. ;)

Let's say they then ask why would someone want to be a Christian if every day is a battle? I mean really, if I can be saved by saying some words and have my destiny change, why would anyone want to do have every day be bad?

Because becoming a Christian is about where you will spend ETERNITY, not your life here. This life it not all there is, otherwise, what is the point of getting saved? Saved from WHAT?

RogerW
May 19th 2007, 12:42 AM
Because becoming a Christian is about where you will spend ETERNITY, not your life here. This life it not all there is, otherwise, what is the point of getting saved? Saved from WHAT?

That's exactly the point! What are we saved from? If Christ says that ALL of my sins are forgiven from the moment I became saved (and He does) then what sin could I commit that has not already been blotted out through His atoning sacrificial death? NONE!

The only sin, according to Scripture that is unforgivable is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us exactly what this sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is, and it is NOT renouncing your faith, or turning away from Christ and losing your salvation.

The Pharisees witnessed Christ cast a devil out of a blind and dumb man, and completely heal him. They knew who Christ was, and that He could only do these miracles because God be with him. Knowing this they falsely accused Christ of casting out devils under the power of Beelzebub the prince of the devils. So Christ tells them that all sin and all blaspheme will be forgiven except this knowingly attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil. This is the only sin that will not be forgiven; knowing the power of the Holy Spirit, that is of God, but in jealousy, and with malice saying that the power of God comes from the devil.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mr 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Showing that only a particular blaspheme is unforgivable and it is NOT rejecting Christ we read of Paul, and how he, before conversion calls himself a blasphemer. Notice Paul thanks the Lord, who enabled him, counted him faithful, and put him into the ministry, even though he had been a blasphemer against Christ. So very obviously blaspheme cannot be rejecting Christ, for if it is then Paul is very confused and never was saved.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Once we have been saved, our salvation is secure, it is forever, it is eternal. It is true that we can fall into temptation, and commit all manner of sin, if we are in Christ we are eternally saved, and will never fall from so great a salvation. How could Christ say whoever believes in Me are given eternal life (meaning never ending, forever, and ever, and ever) if in reality we can lose our salvation, and be damned? Eternal life is eternal or it is no life at all.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

RW

threebigrocks
May 19th 2007, 12:51 AM
Because becoming a Christian is about where you will spend ETERNITY, not your life here. This life it not all there is, otherwise, what is the point of getting saved? Saved from WHAT?

And, our time here and the decisions we make now determine where we will spend eternity.

And, I agree completely with you: thank goodness that life here is not all there is!

threebigrocks
May 19th 2007, 12:59 AM
Let me try to redirect this thread a bit, based on this verse. I can see it's a passionate topic for us, but I am trying, and struggling myself, to keep it an A&E flavor.

2 Peter 1



4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.



How would you explain why these excercises in faith are important to the Christian walk?

DSK
May 19th 2007, 01:32 AM
Let me try to redirect this thread a bit, based on this verse. I can see it's a passionate topic for us, but I am trying, and struggling myself, to keep it an A&E flavor.

2 Peter 1



How would you explain why these excercises in faith are important to the Christian walk?

Continue reading that chapter till you come to verse 10, which addresses the OP.

2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

RogerW
May 19th 2007, 01:35 AM
Let me try to redirect this thread a bit, based on this verse. I can see it's a passionate topic for us, but I am trying, and struggling myself, to keep it an A&E flavor.

2 Peter 1

How would you explain why these excercises in faith are important to the Christian walk?

The promises we have been given in the everlasting covenant are forgiveness, sanctification, union with Christ, and eternal life. With these promises we are made partakers of a new nature, a new man, a new life, which is Christ in us.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

With the presence of this power given us in the new nature we don't escape the corruption and depravity of the natural man, which is present as long as we live in this world, but we must do away with the corruption, vices, conduct and principles of this world. Our new nature, that we must daily put on makes us seek holiness and avoid the corruption of the world. If this new nature, new man is not made manifest inwardly, and so outwardly we still long for the pleasure of this reprobate world then we MUST examine our hearts, for there is a very real probability that we are not in Christ.

Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and above all charity are ours and they should increasingly abound. These will keep us from being empty and unfruitful in our witness to a fallen world. If we are without these graces and growth, and we fail to see only Him and what concerns Him, and ignore what God has done or what we profess God has done in us, then we are shortsighted and without true living faith, and true light in the world. We are good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot. We are called to be salt and light in a fallen world, and this is why are excercise in these graces is important to our Christian witness, for without them, we are none of His.

These graces we can profane, neglect and ignore, and in doing so we won't have that peace and assurance we had when growing in these graces. However, eternal security, the knowledge that He who has begun a good work (salvation) in me, will complete what He has begun. I need never worry that even though I may not always be as faithful as I should be, I am His eternally.

RW

threebigrocks
May 19th 2007, 03:40 AM
These are all welcome answers, and I commend you, but this is A&E and not Bible Chat.

So, a in a new light: :idea:

Someone asks you "What does a Christian do ?" , how do you answer in light of the last few posts regarding 2 Peter?

Evangelism and having an answer for the hope you hold here. ;)

RogerW
May 19th 2007, 03:45 PM
These are all welcome answers, and I commend you, but this is A&E and not Bible Chat.
So, a in a new light: :idea:
Someone asks you "What does a Christian do ?" , how do you answer in light of the last few posts regarding 2 Peter?
Evangelism and having an answer for the hope you hold here. ;)

The hope that I hold comes from the fact that I know NOW that I will be with Christ forever! Hope that is seen is not hope, and I would never tell one to whom I am witnessing that they could possibly commit a sin that would separate them from the love of God, and take away the hope they have been given by grace through faith.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

"What does a Christian do?" When witnessing to an unbeliever make sure they understand their fallen nature, and their great need of a Savior. But don't leave out the hope we have as an anchor of the soul.

RW

threebigrocks
May 19th 2007, 03:54 PM
Okay, that explains hope, but to enforce that it's more than say a few words and gain a title for yourself, how does a Christian live? What's the point of diligence, moral excellence, knowledge, self control, perseverance, godliness, kindness and love to escape the things in verse 4, those being escaping the world and seeking to partake in the divine nature.

Awful lot of action in these 4 verses. ;)

RogerW
May 19th 2007, 04:24 PM
Okay, that explains hope, but to enforce that it's more than say a few words and gain a title for yourself, how does a Christian live? What's the point of diligence, moral excellence, knowledge, self control, perseverance, godliness, kindness and love to escape the things in verse 4, those being escaping the world and seeking to partake in the divine nature.

Awful lot of action in these 4 verses. ;)

I've tried to show how I believe Christians are called to live in a fallen world in post #23. Are you saying that our salvation depends upon saying a few words (I believe/accept/receive) and gaining a title (Christian) for ourselves? If you do believe that salvation is dependent upon a response from the one we are sharing the glorious gospel of Christ, then I can understand how you can believe you can also reject Christ, or lose your salvation. That is understandable, because if we can save ourselves by cooperating with the grace of Christ, then we can also reject by refusing to cooperate. In this type salvation I could certainly find no peace, or assurance the Bible speaks of.

I would never tell an unbeliever whom I've given the message of the cross that by saying a few words or a sinner's prayer they have secured themselves entrance into eternal life, and that now all they must do is keep themselves in this grace by the good deeds they perform.

The point of living in the graces that are ours in Christ is that in doing so these qualities increasingly abound in us, they will keep us from losing hope, and being empty and unfruitful in our spiritual life. If we are without these graces and growth it shows we are none of His because we are ignoring what God has done for us. There are many who profess being in Christ, and who even do many good works in His name, but to these false professors (who fall away because they were never truly abiding in Him and He in they) Christ will say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 20th 2007, 01:01 AM
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

What does "you are worse off at the end than at the beginning" mean? In the beginning before you escaped the corruption you were doomed to go to hell and it says we are worse off than that now. Why? Because we now know the way of the Lord but turn away from it.

With a screen name of 2 Peter 2:20 I guess I have to get in on this conversation! Combine this scripture with Heb.6:4 and Heb.10:26 and it is very hard to say you can't fall. Heb. 6:4 is not discussing your everyday kind of failure (sin) it is discussing apostasy. I'll try to explain it the best I can.

apostasy (Gk. (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1), apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a believer
Start with this definition and head toward Matt. 12:31.
Matt.12:31
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

We can see from this passage that there IS a sin that will not be forgiven!

Apostasy is blasphemy against the Spirit! Believing in your heart and confessing with your month and then getting to a point that you renounce the faith completely. From this state you can't return because you have denied the Spirit that lives in you (you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost).

From all other sins you can be restored if you confess and repent but from these you can't return.


I felt so bad I didn't get any responses I thought I would post it again. It was such a good post and I didn't get anything! :):)

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 02:09 AM
I've tried to show how I believe Christians are called to live in a fallen world in post #23.

Indeed, you did RogerW, and I am sorry for somehow not 'gettin' it' when I read through this earlier. Been a bit of a crazy day, and stayed my one track mind. Sorry about that. Your answer did address it.


[QUOTE]Are you saying that our salvation depends upon saying a few words (I believe/accept/receive) and gaining a title (Christian) for ourselves?

By all means, absolutely not! It's confessing, but also an issue of heart, mind and relationship. And that an ice cube compared to the ice berg!

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 02:10 AM
I felt so bad I didn't get any responses I thought I would post it again. It was such a good post and I didn't get anything! :):)

Can you please share a link where you previously posted this? Thanks!

2 Peter 2:20
May 20th 2007, 02:57 AM
Can you please share a link where you previously posted this? Thanks!

Post #11 in this topic.:D

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 03:22 AM
Okay, now I'm really feeling sheepish. :blush:

Is it possible to take your brain out and let it have a vacation while the rest of your body continues on? :saint:

DSK
May 20th 2007, 12:08 PM
Is it possible to take your brain out and let it have a vacation while the rest of your body continues on? :saint:

It is indeed possible. Whenever you find yourself doubting the possibility of this, just read a hundred or so posts in any on-line forum and you will be convinced that there are many whose brains are on vacation, and yet continue to post. ;)

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 12:13 AM
I felt so bad I didn't get any responses I thought I would post it again. It was such a good post and I didn't get anything! :):)

When you examine 2Pe 2:20 in context you find it is a warning for believers to be on guard against false teachers. Peter says in vs 10 they walk after the flesh in lust and uncleanness, they despise dominion or authority, they are presumptuous, self-willed, not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries. There are false preachers and teachers in the Christian church, just as there were false teachers among the Jews. We are warned to mark them and beware of them (Mt. 7:15,16; 2Tim 4:3,4)

These false teachers beguile and lure through the promise of health, happiness, prosperity, and eternal life the gullible and unlearned. The people who are led astray are NOT the elect of God, but they prey upon the ignorant and untaught who have interest in religion, and who are trying under their own strength and power to become righteous before God. By following these false teachers they (NOT THE ELECT) become enslaved to a greater bondage than worldliness, and that is self-righteous worldliness (Mt. 23:15).

These poor fallen souls had temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world through exposure to the gospel and again become intangled and overcome, his condition is worse; for he is hiding in a false refuge (he thinks being in church with the people of God will save him), whereas before he sought mercy. Now he feels secure thinking himself saved, now he is sinning against the light, where before he could plead ignorance. Now, unless the Lord imputes to him saving faith he will be one of those standing at the Judgment Throne of God pleading for mercy, and the Lord will say to him "depart from me, I never knew you."

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 01:08 AM
When you examine 2Pe 2:20 in context you find it is a warning for believers to be on guard against false teachers. Peter says in vs 10 they walk after the flesh in lust and uncleanness, they despise dominion or authority, they are presumptuous, self-willed, not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries. There are false preachers and teachers in the Christian church, just as there were false teachers among the Jews. We are warned to mark them and beware of them (Mt. 7:15,16; 2Tim 4:3,4)

These false teachers beguile and lure through the promise of health, happiness, prosperity, and eternal life the gullible and unlearned. The people who are led astray are NOT the elect of God, but they prey upon the ignorant and untaught who have interest in religion, and who are trying under their own strength and power to become righteous before God. By following these false teachers they (NOT THE ELECT) become enslaved to a greater bondage than worldliness, and that is self-righteous worldliness (Mt. 23:15).

These poor fallen souls had temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world through exposure to the gospel and again become intangled and overcome, his condition is worse; for he is hiding in a false refuge (he thinks being in church with the people of God will save him), whereas before he sought mercy. Now he feels secure thinking himself saved, now he is sinning against the light, where before he could plead ignorance. Now, unless the Lord imputes to him saving faith he will be one of those standing at the Judgment Throne of God pleading for mercy, and the Lord will say to him "depart from me, I never knew you."

RW


Are you getting on to me or what?:hmm:
Either way it is well worded!;)

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 01:17 AM
I was wondering who would be the first to look up my screen name and respond to it!:D

Are you getting on to me or what?:hmm:
Either way it is well worded!;)


Nevermind RW, I found post #23!! OSAS, I thought that's where you were going!

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 01:40 AM
If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

I have personally known people who crossed God's line of mercy. They chose the world over God, (willfully) and walked away from God. Now they are miserable folks, who will never serve God again.That is not a very good translation for "adokimos truth be told. What it means simply is to be rejected or castaway. To try and work it as saying "missing the mark" or "not pass a test" is honestly reading ones doctrine in the word itself. I know there are some that teach that but it isn't the meaning of the word.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 01:46 AM
Sorry, I disagree. If those who cling to Hebrews 6 to support losing salvation are going to stick with it, then they are going to have to admit that it states one can never be brought back to repentance....which means, NEVER SAVED AGAIN.
Not at all because you are leaving a bunch out of that text.

It starts in chapter 5.

Hebrews 5:11 ¶Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And this we shall do, if God permits.
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

This is why for example the testimony of the man given above doesn't apply to this passage nor does that man fit what this passage is speaking of. These are people that were mature... to the point where they should be teaching by now. Yet they were sliding back to were they needed AGAIN the elemental things. Then in verses 4 and 5 this too tells us that we aren't just talking about Joe Average. The person that has attained this level AND THEN falls away... it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.

threebigrocks
May 22nd 2007, 01:51 AM
Nevermind RW, I found post #23!! OSAS, I thought that's where you were going!

And I did too.

And I was getting two threads turned around, truth be told. Mixin' 'em up in my head. I'll do some re-reading now that i finally realized my mistake and get back into this.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 01:51 AM
That's exactly the point! What are we saved from? If Christ says that ALL of my sins are forgiven from the moment I became saved (and He does) then what sin could I commit that has not already been blotted out through His atoning sacrificial death? NONE!

The only sin, according to Scripture that is unforgivable is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us exactly what this sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is, and it is NOT renouncing your faith, or turning away from Christ and losing your salvation.

The Pharisees witnessed Christ cast a devil out of a blind and dumb man, and completely heal him. They knew who Christ was, and that He could only do these miracles because God be with him. Knowing this they falsely accused Christ of casting out devils under the power of Beelzebub the prince of the devils. So Christ tells them that all sin and all blaspheme will be forgiven except this knowingly attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to the devil. This is the only sin that will not be forgiven; knowing the power of the Holy Spirit, that is of God, but in jealousy, and with malice saying that the power of God comes from the devil.

Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mr 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Showing that only a particular blaspheme is unforgivable and it is NOT rejecting Christ we read of Paul, and how he, before conversion calls himself a blasphemer. Notice Paul thanks the Lord, who enabled him, counted him faithful, and put him into the ministry, even though he had been a blasphemer against Christ. So very obviously blaspheme cannot be rejecting Christ, for if it is then Paul is very confused and never was saved.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Once we have been saved, our salvation is secure, it is forever, it is eternal. It is true that we can fall into temptation, and commit all manner of sin, if we are in Christ we are eternally saved, and will never fall from so great a salvation. How could Christ say whoever believes in Me are given eternal life (meaning never ending, forever, and ever, and ever) if in reality we can lose our salvation, and be damned? Eternal life is eternal or it is no life at all.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

RW
There is often times a saying that all of our sins are forgiven... past, present, and future. Thus implying that we don't even need to repent of future sins. There are even many that teach that and some to the point of saying if we repent of our sin, once saved, then we are not living in faith because we should take it by faith that those sins have already been forgiven. Not sure if you are part of that camp or not but just making the point that this is a common teaching today.

Problem with all of that is... where does it say that in the Scripture? It doesn't. As a matter of fact... folks that live sinfully are folks that have forgotten about being forgiven of their past sins. And in fact... if one is willfully sinning, knowing what they are doing is sin and they are doing so anyway... this person is in grave danger spiritually and eternally speaking.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 01:59 AM
These are all welcome answers, and I commend you, but this is A&E and not Bible Chat.

So, a in a new light: :idea:

Someone asks you "What does a Christian do ?" , how do you answer in light of the last few posts regarding 2 Peter?

Evangelism and having an answer for the hope you hold here. ;)
Let me add some evangelism flavor to it... even in the route it is going and maybe at least cause some folks to ponder.

If you ever do witness on the streets one of the most common things you will hear is "I am a Christian already." Oh... they could be high as a kite and doing things obviously against anything solid that Scripture teaches. So we can take several directions here.

1. They may have been saved at some point but they aren't saved now.
2. They were never saved in the first place because if they were then they certainly wouldn't live this way.
3. They were saved at some point in time apparently so there is no need for me to worry about it... therefore you walk away counting them eternally ok.

1 and 2... you would still fill it necessary to share the gospel with them.
3... nothing done.

Let me lay this verse on everyone to ponder.

James 5:19 ¶My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

Here James is saying that if we have a brother (among you Christian folk) who strays from the truth (can't stray from a place you have never been) and if you turn a sinner (no longer a saint) from the error of his way (sinfulness) then you will save his soul from death (this ain't speaking of saving his physical life from dying) and cover a multitude of sins.

So no matter if you are 1,2, or 3... take this serious and share the gospel with them. It is likely something they need to hear.

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 02:07 AM
There is often times a saying that all of our sins are forgiven... past, present, and future. Thus implying that we don't even need to repent of future sins. There are even many that teach that and some to the point of saying if we repent of our sin, once saved, then we are not living in faith because we should take it by faith that those sins have already been forgiven. Not sure if you are part of that camp or not but just making the point that this is a common teaching today.


I agree. Just because we have been saved does not mean that we are no longer tempted by the lusts of the flesh. We have the Spirit of God to guide us, and if we are truly born from above, we (((know))) when we comit sin. It's not that even these sins are not forgiven, but we are called to grow in faith and maturity, and to become more and more the image of Christ. If the sins that we choose to indulge in do not grieve us horribly, and make us cry out to God in confession and repentance, then there is a real good likelihood that we have never been saved.



Problem with all of that is... where does it say that in the Scripture? It doesn't. As a matter of fact... folks that live sinfully are folks that have forgotten about being forgiven of their past sins. And in fact... if one is willfully sinning, knowing what they are doing is sin and they are doing so anyway... this person is in grave danger spiritually and eternally speaking.

It's not so much a matter of asking for forgiveness, although the Lord's prayer teaches that we ask the Lord to forgive us our sins, even as we forgive others. But it is a matter of confessing that we have committed sin, and repenting of the sins we comit. If we have no desire to confess and repent, then we are lying to ourselves thinking we can continue to live in sin because we have been saved. This too is good reason to think there is probably no true salvation.

RW

jiggyfly
May 22nd 2007, 02:07 AM
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

With this in mind, I think there is more to abiding in Christ then having your sins forgiven, it is loving Him. He said, " if you love Me you will keep my commandments" and He also said, "why do you call Me Lord when you don't do what I say". I don't believe that He is just referring to His written commands either, we are to be led and guided by His Spirit.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 02:15 AM
The point of living in the graces that are ours in Christ is that in doing so these qualities increasingly abound in us, they will keep us from losing hope, and being empty and unfruitful in our spiritual life. If we are without these graces and growth it shows we are none of His because we are ignoring what God has done for us. There are many who profess being in Christ, and who even do many good works in His name, but to these false professors (who fall away because they were never truly abiding in Him and He in they) Christ will say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

RW
Roger,

But then that brings me back to the 2 Peter 1 passage that threebigrocks tossed out a bit back.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


Who is it that adds these virtues to the other virtues? If I read that correctly then Peter is telling us to add to our faith virtue and to our virtue add knowledge and to our knowledge add self-control.... etc. It isn't saying that these virtues are automatically added or simply fall into place as we continue in grace (that could mean a lot of things depending on ones doctrinal view). The very words "be all the more diligent" speak loudly in verse 10 and it does tell us that we should "make an effort"... and yeah, one could say work hard at these things because none of them are really that easy. In doing that according to verse 11... we can make our call and election certain and we will never stumble. One could even say that this was exactly what Paul meant when he told Festus that he preached to Jews and Gentiles everywhere to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance.

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 02:17 AM
Let me add some evangelism flavor to it... even in the route it is going and maybe at least cause some folks to ponder.

If you ever do witness on the streets one of the most common things you will hear is "I am a Christian already." Oh... they could be high as a kite and doing things obviously against anything solid that Scripture teaches. So we can take several directions here.

1. They may have been saved at some point but they aren't saved now.
2. They were never saved in the first place because if they were then they certainly wouldn't live this way.
3. They were saved at some point in time apparently so there is no need for me to worry about it... therefore you walk away counting them eternally ok.

1 and 2... you would still fill it necessary to share the gospel with them.
3... nothing done.

Let me lay this verse on everyone to ponder.

James 5:19 ¶My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

Here James is saying that if we have a brother (among you Christian folk) who strays from the truth (can't stray from a place you have never been) and if you turn a sinner (no longer a saint) from the error of his way (sinfulness) then you will save his soul from death (this ain't speaking of saving his physical life from dying) and cover a multitude of sins.

So no matter if you are 1,2, or 3... take this serious and share the gospel with them. It is likely something they need to hear.

That's good advise. Let's take it a step farther. This person hears what you are saying and shows a real interest, even says he thought he was saved, but now realizes he was never saved at all, but now he wants to know what he must do to become saved. How do you repsond? What do you tell him he must do?

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 02:21 AM
If I could show you (eternal security, OSAS, etc.) that you can fall would you just think about it for a minute?

Here we go!:lol::lol:

Forget all the obvious ones (Heb.6, Heb.10, 2 Pet 2, Gal 5, and so on) and look at Revelation 22:18-19. Now I have found that most OSAS believers I have talked to are also KJV only believers and when discussing KJV only they are quick to quote Rev. 22:18.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

After studying this verse because of the KJV only belief my eyes were opened to the next verse which I had never thought of when it comes to OSAS. Verse 19 reads like this.

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now it says GOD will do something. What will He do? He WILL take away his (the man's) part out of the book of life. To be taken out of the book the man would have had to be in the book in the first place. To be in the book of life represents being saved. Next question, who qualifies to be in the Holy city? Not the lost. So only a saved person would be in jeopardy of this verse. It would not apply to a lost person.

If you want proof about the book of life then look at Rev. 20:15.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is at the GWT judgment. Saved in the book, lost not in the book. It's that simple.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 02:32 AM
That's good advise. Let's take it a step farther. This person hears what you are saying and shows a real interest, even says he thought he was saved, but now realizes he was never saved at all, but now he wants to know what he must do to become saved. How do you repsond? What do you tell him he must do?

RWRepent and do deeds worthy of repentance... worked for Paul so it works for me! ;)

That second Peter 1: 1-11 passage is a great passage to use when speaking to folks about this. It shows them what one means by believing being active and not just a head belief. In that too... you are letting them know that it isn't just them. God is supplying them with all they need and in that we have a most wonderful promise. He's ever faithful even when man, woman or the church may not be. I add church just to keep it real because one of the other most common thing you'll learn is the amount of people that got hosed by a church in their past... at least in their eyes that is how it was anyway. This keeps you from having to defend the church that you haven't a clue about... nor are you giving them any ammo in saying yeah I know... churches can be brutal places and thereby give a pig a pearl to trample underneath (should they turn out to be a pig that is).

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 02:33 AM
Roger,

But then that brings me back to the 2 Peter 1 passage that threebigrocks tossed out a bit back.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


Who is it that adds these virtues to the other virtues? If I read that correctly then Peter is telling us to add to our faith virtue and to our virtue add knowledge and to our knowledge add self-control.... etc. It isn't saying that these virtues are automatically added or simply fall into place as we continue in grace (that could mean a lot of things depending on ones doctrinal view). The very words "be all the more diligent" speak loudly in verse 10 and it does tell us that we should "make an effort"... and yeah, one could say work hard at these things because none of them are really that easy. In doing that according to verse 11... we can make our call and election certain and we will never stumble. One could even say that this was exactly what Paul meant when he told Festus that he preached to Jews and Gentiles everywhere to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance.

Great Post!!
When someone asks me if I believe it eternal security I say based on the 2 Peter 1:1-11 version of eternal security I DO but that's usually not the version they are talking about! It's good to see those that see it the same way!:o:pp

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 02:35 AM
Great Post!!
When someone asks me if I believe it eternal security I say based on the 2 Peter 1:1-11 version of eternal security I DO but that's usually not the version they are talking about! It's good to see those that see it the same way!:o:pp
Tis the only true "biblical eternal security" mentioned in scripture. And yeah... not often taught as such sure enough.

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 02:41 AM
Tis the only true "biblical eternal security" mentioned in scripture. And yeah... not often taught as such sure enough.

It's the only one I have found! This post is really getting started now!

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 02:41 AM
Roger,

But then that brings me back to the 2 Peter 1 passage that threebigrocks tossed out a bit back.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Who is it that adds these virtues to the other virtues? If I read that correctly then Peter is telling us to add to our faith virtue and to our virtue add knowledge and to our knowledge add self-control.... etc. It isn't saying that these virtues are automatically added or simply fall into place as we continue in grace (that could mean a lot of things depending on ones doctrinal view). The very words "be all the more diligent" speak loudly in verse 10 and it does tell us that we should "make an effort"... and yeah, one could say work hard at these things because none of them are really that easy. In doing that according to verse 11... we can make our call and election certain and we will never stumble. One could even say that this was exactly what Paul meant when he told Festus that he preached to Jews and Gentiles everywhere to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance.

We cannot do anything in our own power. But we have power from on high. Through the power and righteousness given us in Christ we have been made partakers of a new nature, a new man, a new life. Through this power we have the ability to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and above all charity or love for the brethren. Though we are indwelt by this Holy Spirit power, we have not escaped the corruption and depravity of human nature. As long as we are in these bodies in this mortal life we have an on-going struggle warring against the Spirit we long to live in, and the flesh, that is fighting to take control, and bring us back into bondage.

There is an effort, His work of faith, though not our own, but imputed to us that we will believe and become saved, is a WORKING faith in us. It is not idle, its active, and it does not come by osmosis. We are called to fight the good fight of faith, and the only way we can do this is to put on the whole armour of God, and daily clothe ourselves in the fruit of the Spirit. None of this is possible in our strength, or without complete dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 02:52 AM
We cannot do anything in our own power. But we have power from on high. Through the power and righteousness given us in Christ we have been made partakers of a new nature, a new man, a new life. Through this power we have the ability to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and above all charity or love for the brethren. Though we are indwelt by this Holy Spirit power, we have not escaped the corruption and depravity of human nature. As long as we are in these bodies in this mortal life we have an on-going struggle warring against the Spirit we long to live in, and the flesh, that is fighting to take control, and bring us back into bondage.

There is an effort, His work of faith, though not our own, but imputed to us that we will believe and become saved, is a WORKING faith in us. It is not idle, its active, and it does not come by osmosis. We are called to fight the good fight of faith, and the only way we can do this is to put on the whole armour of God, and daily clothe ourselves in the fruit of the Spirit. None of this is possible in our strength, or without complete dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

RW


Why put on the whole armor of God, why fight the fight of faith if we have already won the war for our soul? There would be no need.

Why would the accuser of the bretheren (devil) need to be the accuser of the bretheren if he knew he was wasting his breath? Remember the devil knows the Bible and he wouldn't waste his time on souls he can't devour.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 02:54 AM
We cannot do anything in our own power. But we have power from on high. Through the power and righteousness given us in Christ we have been made partakers of a new nature, a new man, a new life. Through this power we have the ability to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and above all charity or love for the brethren. Though we are indwelt by this Holy Spirit power, we have not escaped the corruption and depravity of human nature. As long as we are in these bodies in this mortal life we have an on-going struggle warring against the Spirit we long to live in, and the flesh, that is fighting to take control, and bring us back into bondage.

There is an effort, His work of faith, though not our own, but imputed to us that we will believe and become saved, is a WORKING faith in us. It is not idle, its active, and it does not come by osmosis. We are called to fight the good fight of faith, and the only way we can do this is to put on the whole armour of God, and daily clothe ourselves in the fruit of the Spirit. None of this is possible in our strength, or without complete dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

RWAs that 2 Peter passage makes clear. It is God that equips us in order that we may live a holy life, even here in the nasty now and now. I figure by some of your wording that you adhere to the TULIP doctrine and that's cool... a whole issue different from this one. I don't so we would conflict in much of what you said within the post... but maybe we can yap about that elsewhere at another time. :)

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 02:55 AM
It's the only one I have found! This post is really getting started now!
There are many around here that will tell you how much I hate getting into this discussion... but now and again... I allow myself to go there. ;)

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 03:02 AM
If I could show you (eternal security, OSAS, etc.) that you can fall would you just think about it for a minute?

Here we go!:lol::lol:

Forget all the obvious ones (Heb.6, Heb.10, 2 Pet 2, Gal 5, and so on) and look at Revelation 22:18-19. Now I have found that most OSAS believers I have talked to are also KJV only believers and when discussing KJV only they are quick to quote Rev. 22:18.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

After studying this verse because of the KJV only belief my eyes were opened to the next verse which I had never thought of when it comes to OSAS. Verse 19 reads like this.

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Now it says GOD will do something. What will He do? He WILL take away his (the man's) part out of the book of life. To be taken out of the book the man would have had to be in the book in the first place. To be in the book of life represents being saved. Next question, who qualifies to be in the Holy city? Not the lost. So only a saved person would be in jeopardy of this verse. It would not apply to a lost person.

If you want proof about the book of life then look at Rev. 20:15.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is at the GWT judgment. Saved in the book, lost not in the book. It's that simple.

Almost every Greek manuscript reads, "God shall take away his part out of the "tree of life," and out of the holy city" Bearing that in mind who are the ones who will take words away from the book, or add words to the book? It is not the elect of God (believers). The warning is aimed against the willful distortion of the message of the book (Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Prov 30:6; Gal 1:6,7), those who distort the gospel of Christ. The passage is showing us that anyone who willfully distorts the message of the book shows himself NOT to be a believer and therefore will not participate in eternal life or the blessings of New Jerusalem.

Rev 20:15 speaks for itself. Anyone NOT found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 03:05 AM
There are many around here that will tell you how much I hate getting into this discussion... but now and again... I allow myself to go there. ;)

What gets me is the sheer volume of scripture that is against OSAS! I believe for every verse that is suppose to be for OSAS there are 2 that show that it's not the way it is.

It's OK to talk about it every now and then:)

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 03:05 AM
Why put on the whole armor of God, why fight the fight of faith if we have already won the war for our soul? There would be no need.

Why would the accuser of the bretheren (devil) need to be the accuser of the bretheren if he knew he was wasting his breath? Remember the devil knows the Bible and he wouldn't waste his time on souls he can't devour.

Because we are commanded to. I would elaborate, but its getting late. Who does the accuser go after? You can find the answer in Rev 12. Remember it is Satan's desire to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed, because once it is complete, he's run out of time.

RW

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 03:07 AM
Repent and do deeds worthy of repentance... worked for Paul so it works for me! ;)

That second Peter 1: 1-11 passage is a great passage to use when speaking to folks about this. It shows them what one means by believing being active and not just a head belief. In that too... you are letting them know that it isn't just them. God is supplying them with all they need and in that we have a most wonderful promise. He's ever faithful even when man, woman or the church may not be. I add church just to keep it real because one of the other most common thing you'll learn is the amount of people that got hosed by a church in their past... at least in their eyes that is how it was anyway. This keeps you from having to defend the church that you haven't a clue about... nor are you giving them any ammo in saying yeah I know... churches can be brutal places and thereby give a pig a pearl to trample underneath (should they turn out to be a pig that is).

So basically what you are telling him is that he can save himself if he works hard enough at it?

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 22nd 2007, 03:14 AM
Because we are commanded to. I would elaborate, but its getting late. Who does the accuser go after? You can find the answer in Rev 12. Remember it is Satan's desire to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed, because once it is complete, he's run out of time.

RW

But why? It is done! You are saved and that's it! That is your ultimate goal.

ProjectPeter
May 22nd 2007, 11:31 AM
So basically what you are telling him is that he can save himself if he works hard enough at it?

RWCertainly not. Is that what you think Paul told folks when Paul said those very words?

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 02:55 PM
What gets me is the sheer volume of scripture that is against OSAS! I believe for every verse that is suppose to be for OSAS there are 2 that show that it's not the way it is.

It's OK to talk about it every now and then:)

Perhaps this comes from your perception of certain verses, what you believe they teach. Could these verses you say teach we can lose our salvation possibly be misunderstood as you had misunderstood 2Pe 2:20 and Rev 22:18,19? I find this is always the case for those arguing that one could lose salvation. How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. How can Christ promise "eternal life" if I can reject this so-called eternal life He has given me? Eternal life cannot be called "eternal" if I can commit sin, and lose it. If we could fall away, lose our salvation then Christ would have to say, I give them eternal life unless they reject it. But very clearly He does not! Why? Because we really are eternally secure "WHEN" we are truly in Christ.

RW

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 04:18 PM
But why? It is done! You are saved and that's it! That is your ultimate goal.

Because there is responsibility in being saved. I find the words of James very helpful. James tells us that the faith OF our Lord Jesus Christ shows no partiality. James speaks of one having faith, and asks can faith save him? Then James says that this faith (of our Lord Jesus Christ) is made perfect by works. This is His faith, His righteousness imputed to the elect, which causes His own to do the works ordained unto us (Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them). Faith is perfected in works, if we have not works, our faith is dead, and not the faith of the Lord imputed to us.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What good is there in saying we have faith if we have no good works, no labor of love to prove our faith genuine? Can this kind of faith (without action) be the faith of the Lord imputed to us? Certainly NOT! True saving faith reveals itself through the operation of grace that works by love and kindness both toward our Lord and others.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Why do anything since we are already saved anyway? Because when we have true saving faith, which originates not from within, but from our Lord, we MUST work, we desire to work, we love to work for Him, showing ourselves becoming more and more in His image, otherwise it is made manifest that the faith we claim is not of Christ, but from ourselves.

RW

RogerW
May 22nd 2007, 05:13 PM
Certainly not. Is that what you think Paul told folks when Paul said those very words?

Yes, but how does Paul tell us that a sinner, spiritually dead, is able to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance? You have not shown him how.

God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31
God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?

No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him. Jo 6:44
We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
This faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Ro 10:17

There are two types of people in the world, those saved and those lost. When you are lost, you have no desire for the Lord, or things of the Spirit, and no ability to cry out to Him in repentance and faith. But, God has said that He will have a people to call His own, a people for Himself.
Unless God, supernatually intervenes in the hearts and minds of fallen man, then no man would be saved.

So God in His Sovereign election, and predestination has determined that He will enable some to believe, and He does this through a supernatural drawing of His own. He makes the heart/mind willing to know Him, to seek Him, to believe Him. When an unsaved man shows an interest in Spiritual things, it is very possible that he/she is being drawn by the supernatural power of God.

We tell these that eternal life can be found through the Word of God, and instruct them to gather with Christians, and listen to, and read themselves the Bible. If this one is predestined to receive eternal life, then the Holy Spirit supernaturally imputes the faith of the Lord into the heart, making him/her able to believe the gospel, turn away from sins and be converted.

If he/she has indeed become a new person in Christ it will be made manifest in how his/her life has changed. They will no longer desire the sin they before loved, and it will grieve them terribly when committing sin. There will be a conscience conviction that cannot be denied. They will long to know the Lord more deeply, so they hunger for His Word, and they find they turn to the Lord often in prayer, knowing that the Lord hears the prayers of His people, and they long to be with Christians sharing, and praising the Lord.

So when we are witnessing to the lost we tell them of their great fallenness, their great need, and we show them the only One Who has an answer to their fallen state. But most importantly, we MUST show them how, and how does not come from within, but through the supernatural power of God.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 23rd 2007, 01:34 AM
How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. Let's be careful with this sort of language... try and figure a better way to put it. It is pretty much the same as saying that those that adhere to the NOSAS doctrine are calling Christ a liar or making Him a liar. There are ways one can refute various doctrines without taking that route. :)

ProjectPeter
May 23rd 2007, 02:05 AM
Yes, but how does Paul tell us that a sinner, spiritually dead, is able to repent and do deeds worthy of repentance? You have not shown him how. Repent means that they are to change their mind and course by turning to God. What's to show? I can't show someone how to change their mind. They have to either do that or not do that. The Spirit draws all men to Christ. Some heed the draw while some don't.



God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31
God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?

No one comes to Christ unless the Father draw him. Jo 6:44
We are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
This faith comes from hearing the Word of God. Ro 10:17

There are two types of people in the world, those saved and those lost. When you are lost, you have no desire for the Lord, or things of the Spirit, and no ability to cry out to Him in repentance and faith. But, God has said that He will have a people to call His own, a people for Himself.
Unless God, supernatually intervenes in the hearts and minds of fallen man, then no man would be saved.

So God in His Sovereign election, and predestination has determined that He will enable some to believe, and He does this through a supernatural drawing of His own. He makes the heart/mind willing to know Him, to seek Him, to believe Him. When an unsaved man shows an interest in Spiritual things, it is very possible that he/she is being drawn by the supernatural power of God.

We tell these that eternal life can be found through the Word of God, and instruct them to gather with Christians, and listen to, and read themselves the Bible. If this one is predestined to receive eternal life, then the Holy Spirit supernaturally imputes the faith of the Lord into the heart, making him/her able to believe the gospel, turn away from sins and be converted.

If he/she has indeed become a new person in Christ it will be made manifest in how his/her life has changed. They will no longer desire the sin they before loved, and it will grieve them terribly when committing sin. There will be a conscience conviction that cannot be denied. They will long to know the Lord more deeply, so they hunger for His Word, and they find they turn to the Lord often in prayer, knowing that the Lord hears the prayers of His people, and they long to be with Christians sharing, and praising the Lord.

So when we are witnessing to the lost we tell them of their great fallenness, their great need, and we show them the only One Who has an answer to their fallen state. But most importantly, we MUST show them how, and how does not come from within, but through the supernatural power of God.

RWActually, there is a supernatural drawing of man to Christ. That is what happened at the cross.

John 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

It is the Spirit of God that convicts the world of sin.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Some will heed that conviction and turn to God. Many will ignore that conviction and refuse to acknowledge God as God. But God makes Himself known to all men so none will have an excuse. But it is what they choose to do with that knowledge of God that decides their fate ultimately. But ALL men know God.

As to the various passages that you posted... I'll discuss some of those with you tomorrow. Getting late right now but wanted to toss this out in advance of that to let you know that I am not ignoring your post. Had a fairly busy day today and ready to find the pillow! :)

RogerW
May 23rd 2007, 02:38 PM
Repent means that they are to change their mind and course by turning to God. What's to show? I can't show someone how to change their mind. They have to either do that or not do that. The Spirit draws all men to Christ. Some heed the draw while some don't.

How does a man who is spiritually dead repent, change their mind and turn to God? A man who is dead in trespass and sin does not see the need of a Savior. They see nothing to repent of. You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ? If men are supernaturally drawn it makes no sense that Christ would then leave them without Spiritual life. Either the will of God is supreme or the will of man is supreme and able to thwart God's plan to draw all men to Christ and save them.



Actually, there is a supernatural drawing of man to Christ. That is what happened at the cross.

John 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So Christ here is saying He will draw all men without exception, and yet He is unable to save the one He is drawing? This passage tells us that salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, not that ALL without exception will be drawn, but all men throughout the whole world will be drawn who have been elected/predestinated to receive eternal life from the foundation of the world. Otherwise Christ would be drawing, but again man's will is the supreme, and able to thwart the plans of the Lord to draw all.



It is the Spirit of God that convicts the world of sin.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Some will heed that conviction and turn to God. Many will ignore that conviction and refuse to acknowledge God as God. But God makes Himself known to all men so none will have an excuse. But it is what they choose to do with that knowledge of God that decides their fate ultimately. But ALL men know God.

Yes, the passage tells us the world is convicted of sin. Why? Because they do not believe. We've come again to why the spiritually dead cannot believe.

Either God is Sovereign, and as such able to save His people, or man is sovereingn and able to interfere with God's gracious efforts to save. I believe when Christ died on the cross He did not merely offer the gift of life, He actually, fully accomplished saving all whom He will draw to Him.

RW

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2007, 03:45 PM
Ever have your eyes opened to something that wasn't right, felt remorse and repented, at the same moment?

It was only when I was drawn to Christ, and in the process of that drawing, that I also saw my sin, was convicted and realized that I needed Christ in the way scripture lays out.

We must not doubt the workings of the Spirit. It can and does indeed happen in a moment.

threebigrocks
May 23rd 2007, 04:02 PM
Let's say that you are speeding, and are pulled over by the cops. That officer has the authority to pull you over, point out your wrong, hand over a citiation and then send you on your way hoping you had learned your lesson.

One moment - the law is before you, you are shown your error, you are convicted, and it's in your best interest to change your ways.

How can that not also apply to how God works in us, being he has no boundaries and doesn't need to 'chase us down' as in Romans 1? He can and He does. It's simple for Him. Can be hard for us.

Sold Out
May 23rd 2007, 06:18 PM
Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What good is there in saying we have faith if we have no good works, no labor of love to prove our faith genuine? Can this kind of faith (without action) be the faith of the Lord imputed to us? Certainly NOT! True saving faith reveals itself through the operation of grace that works by love and kindness both toward our Lord and others.



RW

You have quoted James out of context. If you back up to the beginning of this chapter, you will see that James is talking to CHRISTIANS, not the unsaved. James is contrasting SAVING FAITH -vs- SERVING FAITH. These verses do not teach that faith & works are required to be saved. Romans 11 is very clear on this.

James 1:1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...." VS 5, "Hearken, my beloved brethren..."

ProjectPeter
May 23rd 2007, 06:52 PM
God tells us to believe, and we will be saved. Acts 16:31

Acts 16:28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here!"
29 And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

What word of the Lord did they speak... that is important because it was this which they had to believe. That is often missed when folks read and use this text. What word would Paul have preached to him? Repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. I am certain that there was more detail but in summary that is what Paul said that he preached to Jews and Gentiles alike.



God says if we seek Him, we will find Him. Is 55:6
God says that none seek Him, no not one. Ro 3:11

How is this poor, blind, wretched sinner to seek Him and believe when clearly he cannot?That Romans passage has always been a passage (the passage really) that folks use to say that no one can seek God. Problem is... go back and read the passages that Paul was quoting from. If memory is correct then all of them, save one, are taken from Psalms. In that research you will see that this is not what David was saying when he penned those words and I doubt any of us want to try and lay claim that Paul used those passages out of context. David is speaking of enemies of God... enemies of his. In some of those Psalms David even mentions the "righteous" so if there are "NO RIGHTEOUS" in regard to every individual person... and if that is what Paul means (I don't figure it is) then Paul would have taken that out of context. Take this for example:

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 ¶Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Who is David speaking of? The same people that Paul speaks of in Romans 1. Those who say "there is no God." Workers of wickedness he calls them. But then in that 5th verse David tells us who God is with. "The righteous generation." Well imagine that... there is no righteous but yet in that same Psalm we see that isn't the case. Hence... David wasn't talking about all me and there actually being "NO" righteous. Just to hammer that point home... look at the very next Psalm.

Psalms 15:1 O Lord, who may abide in Thy tent? Who may dwell on Thy holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt, and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.

So certainly there are "righteous" folk and there were then. So context is important here.

Paul continues in that 2nd chapter of Romans talking to the Jew. Their circumcision and following their traditions and laws... being of Abraham... none of that is going to matter a whit. They are just as bad as the folks in chapter 1. Paul continues that line here in Romans 3. Jew and Gentile... he is not changing his message.

Another example of one of the Psalms Paul quotes (in an effort to show the point is exactly the same).


Psalms 53:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.
2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread, And have not called upon God?
5 There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.
6 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Who is David speaking about? The fool that has said in his heart that "There is no God." Notice the pattern and theme here is consistent totally on what Paul began this whole discourse on. Romans 1... they knew Him as God but did not acknowledge Him as God. God gave them over to various things and ultimately to a reprobate mind.

Does this apply to every individual living? Not at all because not one person alive started out reprobate. They started out "knowing God" and then refused to acknowledge Him as God. Then they got worse as God gave them over to various things and thus the process of hardening a heart. Jew or Gentile.

Covered the other passages in the earlier post... I see you've responded to that so I'll take that from there.

ProjectPeter
May 23rd 2007, 07:31 PM
How does a man who is spiritually dead repent, change their mind and turn to God?They change their mind and thus they repent. They turn from their wicked deeds and instead produce good fruit and thus they have turned to God. Even you said that although we went through a different door to get there. You said they "will do as a result" and I say "they need to do" and ultimately we agree on the result. We differ on how that result is achieved. But we both agree that it is by God empowering us that these results will come about.



A man who is dead in trespass and sin does not see the need of a Savior. They see nothing to repent of.Sure... no problem with that. So we preach to them and hope it pierces their heart and then we let the Spirit do what the Spirit does. ;)


You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ? [quote]For salvation... why else would it happen?

[quote]If men are supernaturally drawn it makes no sense that Christ would then leave them without Spiritual life. Either the will of God is supreme or the will of man is supreme and able to thwart God's plan to draw all men to Christ and save them. Well it makes no sense that someone would trample the blood of Christ underfoot but it happens. It makes no sense that the Galatians would walk away from freedom in Christ and into bondage of the Law but it happens. It makes no sense why a washed pig would return to the mud or a dog to its vomit... but it happens. I makes no sense why one would turn from the truth and back into the ways of the world... but again... it happens.

Let's take what you say to a logical conclusion with this whole "God is supreme therefore" thing. If it works out how you present it (even by implication here) then why would God ever change His mind? Why would God tell someone that they need to get their stuff in order because times up... then hear the guys prayer and send the prophet back in to tell him never mind... going to give you another 15 years? Why would God relent and not destroy Ninevah only to postpone it for a few years later and then destroy them? Why would God take serious Ahab's prayer of repentance and spare his life only to later say Ahab was a heathen and take him out? Why did God desire sweet grapes (righteous Israel) and yet He got sour ones instead (unrighteous Israel). Yes, God is supreme because after all... He is God. Why is it such a foreign concept that God, in all of His sovereignty, allowed man free moral agency? In other words... God allows man to make their moral or immoral choice. He doesn't pick that for them and push them that direction. It is no different with that drawing to Christ. Some here and don't get it. Some here and yet have issues and they fall away. Some hear and their soil is good and they produce fruit.



So Christ here is saying He will draw all men without exception, and yet He is unable to save the one He is drawing? This passage tells us that salvation is no longer limited to a single nation, not that ALL without exception will be drawn, but all men throughout the whole world will be drawn who have been elected/predestinated to receive eternal life from the foundation of the world. Otherwise Christ would be drawing, but again man's will is the supreme, and able to thwart the plans of the Lord to draw all. Actually no... you don't see "only the elect" anywhere near that passage. One has to place that there despite what the clear text is saying. ;)


Yes, the passage tells us the world is convicted of sin. Why? Because they do not believe. We've come again to why the spiritually dead cannot believe.So if they are all convicted of sin... why don't they all turn to God? The Spirit convicted the world... is He lacking in something? Naturally not. Christ has drawn all men... the Spirit convicts those men... they have to either acknowledge God as God... or go the route of those who will be reprobate.



Either God is Sovereign, and as such able to save His people, or man is sovereingn and able to interfere with God's gracious efforts to save. I believe when Christ died on the cross He did not merely offer the gift of life, He actually, fully accomplished saving all whom He will draw to Him.

RWAnd again... it is odd to me that everyone says God is sovereign with such authority and yet they discount the fact that God, in all His sovereignty, gave man the choice. Choose life or choose death. After all... God uttered those very words a time or two according to Scripture. :)

RogerW
May 23rd 2007, 08:05 PM
You have quoted James out of context. If you back up to the beginning of this chapter, you will see that James is talking to CHRISTIANS, not the unsaved. James is contrasting SAVING FAITH -vs- SERVING FAITH. These verses do not teach that faith & works are required to be saved. Romans 11 is very clear on this.

James 1:1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...." VS 5, "Hearken, my beloved brethren..."

I couldn't agree more! What James shows is that if you are a Christians there will be works.

RW

RogerW
May 23rd 2007, 10:00 PM
Acts 16:28 But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do yourself no harm, for we are all here!"
29 And he called for lights and rushed in and, trembling with fear, he fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household."
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

What word of the Lord did they speak... that is important because it was this which they had to believe. That is often missed when folks read and use this text. What word would Paul have preached to him? Repent and turn to God and do deeds worthy of repentance. I am certain that there was more detail but in summary that is what Paul said that he preached to Jews and Gentiles alike.

Paul preached the cross, Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Paul knew that this is the message which MUST be believed to be saved. Yes, Paul would also have told them to repent, but without belief in the message of the cross, repentance is in vain. Paul knew that which was the greatest offense to others was the most important thing to him because salvation comes only through and by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ.

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Ac 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

The cross, Christ crucified, in its simplicity, and lowliness of its ministers and followers, the crucified Redeemer is the very wisdom of God, and those who are mature in faith recognize it as such. This redemptive plan was hidden in promises, prophecies and types/shadows, but is now revealed in Christ (He 1:1-5). None of the world’s rulers or leaders saw the wisdom of God in Christ, or they never would have crucified our Lord.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

The gospel is unknown to natural men. It is beyond the understanding of the wisest of them. How can any of them come to know these spiritual mysteries? God reveals his purpose to save through His Spirit working in us. The Holy Spirit has a complete and perfect knowledge of all who belong to Christ.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The natural, unregenerate man will not receive, understand, nor believe in his heart these truths of God and the revelation of the Spirit of God. The gospel of grace makes no sense to him, it is nonsense. He is incapable of understanding the things of God because these things can only be understood through the Holy Spirit, through revelation only the Spirit gives. Unless one is Spiritually enlightened, he/she will never believe.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



That Romans passage has always been a passage (the passage really) that folks use to say that no one can seek God. Problem is... go back and read the passages that Paul was quoting from. If memory is correct then all of them, save one, are taken from Psalms. In that research you will see that this is not what David was saying when he penned those words and I doubt any of us want to try and lay claim that Paul used those passages out of context. David is speaking of enemies of God... enemies of his. In some of those Psalms David even mentions the "righteous" so if there are "NO RIGHTEOUS" in regard to every individual person... and if that is what Paul means (I don't figure it is) then Paul would have taken that out of context. Take this for example:

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Do all the workers of wickedness not know, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 ¶Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Who is David speaking of? The same people that Paul speaks of in Romans 1. Those who say "there is no God." Workers of wickedness he calls them. But then in that 5th verse David tells us who God is with. "The righteous generation." Well imagine that... there is no righteous but yet in that same Psalm we see that isn't the case. Hence... David wasn't talking about all me and there actually being "NO" righteous. Just to hammer that point home... look at the very next Psalm.

Who are the children of men? This passage, like Ro 3 says that the Lord sees ALL the children of men, not just those who say there is no God. The Lord's assessment is they are ALL filthy, and NONE of the children of men do good, no, not one.

Ps 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



Psalms 15:1 O Lord, who may abide in Thy tent? Who may dwell on Thy holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised, But who honors those who fear the LORD; He swears to his own hurt, and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken.

So certainly there are "righteous" folk and there were then. So context is important here.

Who made them righteous? We just read in the previous chapter that there is none who do good. And yet there are some who will abide in His tent, and dwell on His holy hill. How is the man in whom does no good able to walk in integrity, work righteousness, and speak truth in his heart? It is only the man in whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered, in whom the Lord does not impute iniquity else there would be none righteous, no, not one.

Ps 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.



Paul continues in that 2nd chapter of Romans talking to the Jew. Their circumcision and following their traditions and laws... being of Abraham... none of that is going to matter a whit. They are just as bad as the folks in chapter 1. Paul continues that line here in Romans 3. Jew and Gentile... he is not changing his message.

Another example of one of the Psalms Paul quotes (in an effort to show the point is exactly the same).

Psalms 53:1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good.
2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 ¶Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread, And have not called upon God?
5 There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.
6 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Who is David speaking about? The fool that has said in his heart that "There is no God." Notice the pattern and theme here is consistent totally on what Paul began this whole discourse on. Romans 1... they knew Him as God but did not acknowledge Him as God. God gave them over to various things and ultimately to a reprobate mind.

Again, look closely at verses 2 and 3 which say, "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are ALTOGETHER become filthy; there IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." This is speaking of ALL of mankind, not just some who say, "there is no God."

Though God has revealed Himself to man, they neither thought nor spoke honourably of Him. The did not glorify Him as God, nor honour Him as the Creator, nor worship Him as the Lord of the universe. They were not thankful for the knowledge they had, or for God's many mercies. They forsake God and His truth, and turn instead to the vanity of their own minds, and imaginations.

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



Does this apply to every individual living? Not at all because not one person alive started out reprobate. They started out "knowing God" and then refused to acknowledge Him as God. Then they got worse as God gave them over to various things and thus the process of hardening a heart. Jew or Gentile.

To draw this conclusion you have to ignore the verses in those passages from Psalms that speak of the unversality of the fallenness of man. There is a difference in having a knowledge of God through His creation, and having a saving knowledge of our crucified Lord. The first leaves man without excuse, the second brings eternal life to all who believe.

RW

RogerW
May 23rd 2007, 10:32 PM
They change their mind and thus they repent. They turn from their wicked deeds and instead produce good fruit and thus they have turned to God. Even you said that although we went through a different door to get there. You said they "will do as a result" and I say "they need to do" and ultimately we agree on the result. We differ on how that result is achieved. But we both agree that it is by God empowering us that these results will come about.

You have yet to explain how a spiritually dead man can change his mind, turn from wicked deeds, and then turn to God? Natural man has no ability within himself. Until we are made alive through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit we have NO ABILITY to respond to the Lord in faith to be saved.



[quote] You say the Spirit draws all men to Christ, then all men should be saved, but they are not. Why? If God draws all men to Christ, and the reason is NOT for salvation, then what is the purpose God draws all men to Christ? [quote]For salvation... why else would it happen?

Then why aren't all men saved? Are you saying that the will of fallen, spiritually discerned men is able to keep the Lord from saving ALL men, since (you say) all men are drawn to him? Is the will of man really able to stop the Lord from saving those He draws to Himself?



Well it makes no sense that someone would trample the blood of Christ underfoot but it happens. It makes no sense that the Galatians would walk away from freedom in Christ and into bondage of the Law but it happens. It makes no sense why a washed pig would return to the mud or a dog to its vomit... but it happens. I makes no sense why one would turn from the truth and back into the ways of the world... but again... it happens.

It makes perfect sense that some trample the blood of Christ, return to the bondage of the law, return, like a pig to the mud, or a dog to its own vomit. It makes perfect sense when you realize they have never received saving faith.



Let's take what you say to a logical conclusion with this whole "God is supreme therefore" thing. If it works out how you present it (even by implication here) then why would God ever change His mind? Why would God tell someone that they need to get their stuff in order because times up... then hear the guys prayer and send the prophet back in to tell him never mind... going to give you another 15 years? Why would God relent and not destroy Ninevah only to postpone it for a few years later and then destroy them? Why would God take serious Ahab's prayer of repentance and spare his life only to later say Ahab was a heathen and take him out? Why did God desire sweet grapes (righteous Israel) and yet He got sour ones instead (unrighteous Israel). Yes, God is supreme because after all... He is God. Why is it such a foreign concept that God, in all of His sovereignty, allowed man free moral agency? In other words... God allows man to make their moral or immoral choice. He doesn't pick that for them and push them that direction. It is no different with that drawing to Christ. Some here and don't get it. Some here and yet have issues and they fall away. Some hear and their soil is good and they produce fruit.

Do you believe in the providence of God over all His creation?



Actually no... you don't see "only the elect" anywhere near that passage. One has to place that there despite what the clear text is saying.

The choice then would be that only some, the elect are saved, or all men will be saved. Do you believe that every man will be saved?



So if they are all convicted of sin... why don't they all turn to God? The Spirit convicted the world... is He lacking in something? Naturally not. Christ has drawn all men... the Spirit convicts those men... they have to either acknowledge God as God... or go the route of those who will be reprobate.

They have no choice in the matter until they are saved. Without the Holy Spirit IN THEM they cannot believe, and even if they acknowledge God as God, they MUST believe the message of the cross, or remain reprobate, and they cannot believe the message of the cross unless the Lord gives them ears to hear the gospel.



And again... it is odd to me that everyone says God is sovereign with such authority and yet they discount the fact that God, in all His sovereignty, gave man the choice. Choose life or choose death. After all... God uttered those very words a time or two according to Scripture. :)

Just as you could not choose to receive physical life, you cannot choose to receive spiritual life as a natural man (reprobate). How could God be Sovereign if He gave man the choice? That would mean that God relinquishes His Sovereignty to fallen, reprobate man. This is something absolutley foreign to Scripture.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 24th 2007, 12:26 AM
Perhaps this comes from your perception of certain verses, what you believe they teach. Could these verses you say teach we can lose our salvation possibly be misunderstood as you had misunderstood 2Pe 2:20 and Rev 22:18,19? I find this is always the case for those arguing that one could lose salvation. How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. How can Christ promise "eternal life" if I can reject this so-called eternal life He has given me? Eternal life cannot be called "eternal" if I can commit sin, and lose it. If we could fall away, lose our salvation then Christ would have to say, I give them eternal life unless they reject it. But very clearly He does not! Why? Because we really are eternally secure "WHEN" we are truly in Christ.

RW

I want to start out by giving you the definition of the word "IF". This is for 2 reasons: 1. It's my favorite word in the Bible. 2. It could make the difference in this conversation. The definition of the word "IF" is: in the event that, on the condition of, granting that. Now everytime you see the word "IF" in the Bible I want you to remember what it means. Why is the word "IF" so important? Because it's a cause and effect statement. It gives YOU a choice everytime! Here is an example statement "If you do this then this will happen."

You say I misunderstand these scriptures because of 1 verse that Jesus said about His sheep knowing His voice and your next reply is going to be the 1 about no one can snatch them out of His hand. Right? After that you are going to go to 1 John and quote some scripture to try to prove your point. But after that where do you go? I can give you scripture after scripture from just about every book in the NT that shows my side. Now you said Jesus would be a liar if you could lose your salvation but I want to show you what Jesus said in John 15.

John 15:4-6
4Remain in me, and I (Jesus) will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me (Jesus) and I (Jesus) in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If (in the event that, on the condition, granting that) anyone does not remain in me (Jesus), he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Notice what verse 4 says, the order it says it and what verse 4 doesn't say. It says that YOU remain in Him. This is the first part of the statement and then there is a comma which connects it directly to the second part of the statement. The second part says He will remain in you but this is contingent on you remaining in Him first. Notice that it doesn't say once you are in Me you will always be in Me. This verse is just about saying the complete opposite of that.

The question we can ask ourselves is "What happens IF we don't remain (abide) in Him?" The obvious answer is He will not remain in us. If you don't fulfill your part of the statement He will not fulfill His part of the statement. Now if you don't believe my answer to this question look to verse 6 to find the answer to it. It starts with the word IF. I put the definition in blue so you can see it in context. Jesus says one that doesn't remain in Him is like a branch that dies and is cast into the fire and burned.

2 Peter 2:20
May 24th 2007, 12:33 AM
You have quoted James out of context. If you back up to the beginning of this chapter, you will see that James is talking to CHRISTIANS, not the unsaved. James is contrasting SAVING FAITH -vs- SERVING FAITH. These verses do not teach that faith & works are required to be saved. Romans 11 is very clear on this.

James 1:1, "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons...." VS 5, "Hearken, my beloved brethren..."


Exactly right, SOLDOUT! James is speaking to believers but that's about as far as I will go.

2 Peter 2:20
May 24th 2007, 12:59 AM
RW,

Do I detect some Calvinism in your posts? You are using words like predestined and elect a lot. You asked if all people will be saved. No, everyone will not be saved but that is not because they were not predestined. It is because they made a choice to reject God. The Bible says God wants ALL to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So if God wants everyone to come to repentance then why isn't everyone saved? Doesn't God get everything He wants? If it was ALL on Him then everyone would be saved. This should show you that something or someone else has control of it. You are in control of your salvation.:hmm:

threebigrocks
May 24th 2007, 01:29 AM
You are in control of your salvation.:hmm:

We have a choice, indeed! If you so desprately wanted someone to love us, and they didn't, would we force it anyway? Some do, but that still doesn't make a person love us from the heart. It's nonexistent or shallow, only skin deep.

God in interested in the going ons of the heart, our deepest parts, and wants us to come to Him because our heart says yes.

Hebrews 4


12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


If the very Words of scripture can cut that deep, and God judges the heart, why would He settle for skin deep conversions?

RogerW
May 24th 2007, 03:53 AM
I want to start out by giving you the definition of the word "IF". This is for 2 reasons: 1. It's my favorite word in the Bible. 2. It could make the difference in this conversation. The definition of the word "IF" is: in the event that, on the condition of, granting that. Now everytime you see the word "IF" in the Bible I want you to remember what it means. Why is the word "IF" so important? Because it's a cause and effect statement. It gives YOU a choice everytime! Here is an example statement "If you do this then this will happen."

You say I misunderstand these scriptures because of 1 verse that Jesus said about His sheep knowing His voice and your next reply is going to be the 1 about no one can snatch them out of His hand. Right? After that you are going to go to 1 John and quote some scripture to try to prove your point. But after that where do you go? I can give you scripture after scripture from just about every book in the NT that shows my side. Now you said Jesus would be a liar if you could lose your salvation but I want to show you what Jesus said in John 15.

John 15:4-6
4Remain in me, and I (Jesus) will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me (Jesus) and I (Jesus) in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If (in the event that, on the condition, granting that) anyone does not remain in me (Jesus), he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Notice what verse 4 says, the order it says it and what verse 4 doesn't say. It says that YOU remain in Him. This is the first part of the statement and then there is a comma which connects it directly to the second part of the statement. The second part says He will remain in you but this is contingent on you remaining in Him first. Notice that it doesn't say once you are in Me you will always be in Me. This verse is just about saying the complete opposite of that.

The question we can ask ourselves is "What happens IF we don't remain (abide) in Him?" The obvious answer is He will not remain in us. If you don't fulfill your part of the statement He will not fulfill His part of the statement. Now if you don't believe my answer to this question look to verse 6 to find the answer to it. It starts with the word IF. I put the definition in blue so you can see it in context. Jesus says one that doesn't remain in Him is like a branch that dies and is cast into the fire and burned.

The parable of the sower - Matthew 13

Jesus uses the parable of a sower going forth to sow to show us the different types of people who come into the covenant body externally (become baptized members of the church). After speaking the parable Christ says, “Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” So His disciples ask why He speaks to the crowds in parables. Christ answers, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” This tells us that not everyone is given ears to hear, so they will know the mysteries of the kingdom. Then Christ tells them, “Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.” Even the little light that some might receive by being with believers in the covenant church body is taken from them because they are not His eternally (“if” any one does not remain in Me).

Very clearly Christ tells us that not all are given to understand, and in fact what little understanding the reprobate may receive is taken from them, because only those who have ears to hear will understand.

Christ tells the disciples they are blessed because they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears. Not all hear and see the things His disciples do, because Christ says, “many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” Christ will explain the parable.

Christ tells us His Word goes out, and when one hears and does not understand, the wicked one comes and steals the Word that was sown in his heart. Another hearing the Word is likened to stony ground which appears to take root, and endures for a while, but then is drawn away by the trials and persecutions because of the Word, and soon finds the Word offensive. He could not endure because though he was trying to abide in Christ, Christ did not abide in him. Then the preached Word falls among thorns, but the joy of this life, the thought of fame and fortune overcome them, and the Word is choked out. Finally the Word is received into good ground, and bears much fruit.

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understand it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that with was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understand it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This parable very clearly shows us that not all people hearing the Word can receive it. It shows us why some receive it, while others cannot. Because only some are given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom. They are the only ones who are given ears to hear, and eyes to see.

When Christ says, “if” a man remains in Me, or “if” a man does not remain in Me, He is speaking to all who are in the church, and hear the Word. Those who do remain in Him are the eternally saved, and those who do not remain in Him are those who hear the preached Word, but do not have ears to hear, and so they are plucked up and thrown into the fire.

Salvation is not a free gift offered! Salvation is a free gift GIVEN! The offer is the message of the cross that goes into all the world, which every man can hear with physical ears, but the message of the cross is NOT salvation, it is the means of salvation. While all men are equally given to hear the message of the cross, only His own are given spiritual ears to hear, receive faith, and believe. The difference is that all men can hear the preached word with physical ears, but only His sheep hear His voice, and follow Him, because He calls them by name.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out..
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

So “IF” some do not continue to abide in Him, it is because they were never His sheep. Christ lay down His life for His sheep, and He gives them “ETERNAL” life. Like I have already said the life He gives His sheep would not be eternal “IF” His sheep could ever be lost. Does Christ lay down His life for His sheep only to lose them? Not the Christ of the Bible!

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

You were concerned about Christ saying “IF” a man remains in Me, he will bear much fruit. When we read a little further down the chapter Christ puts our mind at rest for He says, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain”

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

RW

RogerW
May 24th 2007, 04:04 AM
We have a choice, indeed! If you so desprately wanted someone to love us, and they didn't, would we force it anyway? Some do, but that still doesn't make a person love us from the heart. It's nonexistent or shallow, only skin deep.

To speak of God as being desperate implies a weak, pathetic God. Would you have me believe that the Sovereign of the universe sits in heaven begging, and pleading people to please come to Him? This is NOT the God of the Bible! The God of the Bible governs His creation. He is providential in the hearts and affairs of man. Christ need not make His own love Him, for He gives us a new heart, makes us willing, and a new creature who sees Him, and loves Him because we understand so well how pathetic and hopeless we are without Him. Had God not intervened in the hearts of some men, then no man could be saved. Remember we love Him, because He first loved us.



God in interested in the going ons of the heart, our deepest parts, and wants us to come to Him because our heart says yes.

The hearts of fallen man are desperately wicked, and have no desire EVER to say yes to the Lord. No man can come to Christ unless He is made willing to come. If no man is made willing, then no man could come.



If the very Words of scripture can cut that deep, and God judges the heart, why would He settle for skin deep conversions?

Why indeed? Skin deep is all you get when you believe there is something inherently good in man, that would cause him to choose Christ while being spiritually dead.

RW

ddlewis86
May 24th 2007, 05:10 AM
1 John 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Romans 11:29
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

RogerW
May 24th 2007, 02:04 PM
RW,
Do I detect some Calvinism in your posts? You are using words like predestined and elect a lot. You asked if all people will be saved. No, everyone will not be saved but that is not because they were not predestined. It is because they made a choice to reject God. The Bible says God wants ALL to be saved.

I've never really felt compelled to even read, little lone study the writings of Calvin. Words like predestined and elect are words from the Bible, therefore I MUST deal with them. As painful as it may be for some to accept, the truth is that God has chosen a people for Himself, and these will come to Him and be saved. If rejecting Christ were a sin that would separate us from Christ, then no man could be saved. Because ALL men reject Christ until they are born again.

A good example is the Apostle Paul, who not only rejected the message of the cross, but calls himself a blasphemer. Certainly we cannot argue that Paul's rejecting the message of the cross kept him from becoming a Christian! We can also see in the example of Paul that he had no desire to become a follower of the Lord. He was NOT willing. His salvation is a great example in Scripture how God saves some even if they are NOT willing to come to him. Certainly we cannot argue that since God intervened and made Paul willing, Paul therefore came against his will, and his heart was not made to deeply love our Lord!



2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

So if God wants everyone to come to repentance then why isn't everyone saved? Doesn't God get everything He wants? If it was ALL on Him then everyone would be saved. This should show you that something or someone else has control of it. You are in control of your salvation.:hmm:

The length of time that has passed since the promise of Christ's coming has no significance upon the fulfillment of that promise, since the longest amount of time is nothing with God. The reason His coming is being delayed is the long-suffering of God toward His elect ('to us-ward'). He is NOT willing that even one of those belonging to Him from the foundation of the world should perish. They (eternally elect, believers) shall be brought to repentance and faith. These have been given Christ before the world began, Christ came down from heaven to save them, and none of them will be lost.

Joh 6:37 ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 24th 2007, 03:26 PM
Had a nice long response typed out and then hit the magic WRONG button when clearing a tab... nice long post gone! So here we go again! :lol:


You have yet to explain how a spiritually dead man can change his mind, turn from wicked deeds, and then turn to God? Natural man has no ability within himself. Until we are made alive through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit we have NO ABILITY to respond to the Lord in faith to be saved.Actually I did explain it. It began with the cross when Christ was lifted up. Then enter the conviction of the Spirit. Then the fact that ALL men know God and no one has an excuse... I actually have explained it in pretty good detail I am thinking. :hmm:



Then why aren't all men saved? Are you saying that the will of fallen, spiritually discerned men is able to keep the Lord from saving ALL men, since (you say) all men are drawn to him? Is the will of man really able to stop the Lord from saving those He draws to Himself? Because not all choose to acknowledge God as God. And setting it up as if man can "thwart" God is not at all what is being said. You are wording it as such because your doctrine would see it that way. What I believe is that God, in His sovereignty, gave man the will to decide what moral road they would take. Choose life... choose death. Again, there are plenty of Scriptural references to man making and being given that choice. Bible is full of them.



It makes perfect sense that some trample the blood of Christ, return to the bondage of the law, return, like a pig to the mud, or a dog to its own vomit. It makes perfect sense when you realize they have never received saving faith. Not according to that 2 Peter 2 passage.

2 Peter 2:17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they (false teachers) entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those (believers) who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them (believers) freedom while they themselves (false teachers) are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they (believers) have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they (believers) are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

So to say they were never in the faith... just doesn't work Scripturally.



Do you believe in the providence of God over all His creation?Sure.. but then to what degree? You have God as the one that pulls all strings and nothing at all happens without Him pushing here and prodding there and all things happen by God's orchestration. No... I don't believe that. Can God orchestrate things down to each and every little detail? You bet... He is God. Does God? At times I would think most certainly. At times I would say God allows man to go His way and God let's them do what they do all on their own. And again... plenty of biblical examples of both.




The choice then would be that only some, the elect are saved, or all men will be saved. Do you believe that every man will be saved?Every man that believes and endures to the end... will be saved. You did leave that choice out more or less although your doctrine would allow that only the "elect" are saved so you did get it in with that understanding.




They have no choice in the matter until they are saved. Without the Holy Spirit IN THEM they cannot believe, and even if they acknowledge God as God, they MUST believe the message of the cross, or remain reprobate, and they cannot believe the message of the cross unless the Lord gives them ears to hear the gospel. Where is that verse that speaks of the Holy Spirit being given to those that are reprobate? I've still yet to find that there verse.

Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

First came the preaching. Then the piercing of the heart. Then the repentance (changing of the mind) then the Spirit. Sounds an awful lot like what I have been saying doesn't it?




Just as you could not choose to receive physical life, you cannot choose to receive spiritual life as a natural man (reprobate). How could God be Sovereign if He gave man the choice? That would mean that God relinquishes His Sovereignty to fallen, reprobate man. This is something absolutley foreign to Scripture.

RWIt is because God is sovereign that He could give man a choice. As to relinquishing His authority? No clue how you come to that conclusion. One can remain in authority and yet let another have freedom. Hence judgment day for those that oppose the one in Authority as opposed to obeying the one in authority.

DSK
May 24th 2007, 04:46 PM
By following his covenant of love. I believe that if you follow the that then you are covered. If you love God and you love your fellow man then you will not commit "sin" against them. It is a very simple notion :) I do not have to dissect the Bible (specifically the old testament) to understand that God just wants us to love him and one another.

~ CA

Where is this covenant of love found?

2 Peter 2:20
May 24th 2007, 09:54 PM
The parable of the sower - Matthew 13

Jesus uses the parable of a sower going forth to sow to show us the different types of people who come into the covenant body externally (become baptized members of the church). After speaking the parable Christ says, “Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” So His disciples ask why He speaks to the crowds in parables. Christ answers, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” This tells us that not everyone is given ears to hear, so they will know the mysteries of the kingdom. Then Christ tells them, “Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.” Even the little light that some might receive by being with believers in the covenant church body is taken from them because they are not His eternally (“if” any one does not remain in Me).

Very clearly Christ tells us that not all are given to understand, and in fact what little understanding the reprobate may receive is taken from them, because only those who have ears to hear will understand.

Christ tells the disciples they are blessed because they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears. Not all hear and see the things His disciples do, because Christ says, “many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” Christ will explain the parable.

Christ tells us His Word goes out, and when one hears and does not understand, the wicked one comes and steals the Word that was sown in his heart. Another hearing the Word is likened to stony ground which appears to take root, and endures for a while, but then is drawn away by the trials and persecutions because of the Word, and soon finds the Word offensive. He could not endure because though he was trying to abide in Christ, Christ did not abide in him. Then the preached Word falls among thorns, but the joy of this life, the thought of fame and fortune overcome them, and the Word is choked out. Finally the Word is received into good ground, and bears much fruit.

Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understand it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that with was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mt 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understand it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This parable very clearly shows us that not all people hearing the Word can receive it. It shows us why some receive it, while others cannot. Because only some are given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom. They are the only ones who are given ears to hear, and eyes to see.

When Christ says, “if” a man remains in Me, or “if” a man does not remain in Me, He is speaking to all who are in the church, and hear the Word. Those who do remain in Him are the eternally saved, and those who do not remain in Him are those who hear the preached Word, but do not have ears to hear, and so they are plucked up and thrown into the fire.

Salvation is not a free gift offered! Salvation is a free gift GIVEN! The offer is the message of the cross that goes into all the world, which every man can hear with physical ears, but the message of the cross is NOT salvation, it is the means of salvation. While all men are equally given to hear the message of the cross, only His own are given spiritual ears to hear, receive faith, and believe. The difference is that all men can hear the preached word with physical ears, but only His sheep hear His voice, and follow Him, because He calls them by name.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out..
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

So “IF” some do not continue to abide in Him, it is because they were never His sheep. Christ lay down His life for His sheep, and He gives them “ETERNAL” life. Like I have already said the life He gives His sheep would not be eternal “IF” His sheep could ever be lost. Does Christ lay down His life for His sheep only to lose them? Not the Christ of the Bible!

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

You were concerned about Christ saying “IF” a man remains in Me, he will bear much fruit. When we read a little further down the chapter Christ puts our mind at rest for He says, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain”

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

RW

First let us understand and agree "to remain" in something you have to be in that thing. Right? Here is an example. Say for instance the police came to your house and asked you to remain indoors until further notice. Would you agree that for this statement to make any sense you would already have to be indoors to begin with? The police wouldn't tell you to remain somewhere if you were never there to being with. Here is another. Say you were living in Chicago and someone asked you if you were going to remain there. Do you agree you would have to be living in Chicago for this to make any sense? So how can you say that Jesus is not talking about believers that were in Christ at some point in John 15. They had to be IN Christ to be able to remain in Him. Right? To be IN Christ it makes sense that they HAD to accept Christ at some point.

You can try to spin it any way you want but the words are clear. You can say they were never truly saved and attempt to justify it but that is stretching the Bible to fit your doctrine instead of adjusting your doctrine to fit the Bible. I'll respond later to some of your other comments.

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 12:22 AM
RW,
You refer to those elect or the truly saved as those having a hearing and understanding that lost people can't comprehend. Yet, how many times did Jesus refer to His elect as dull, without understanding, etc.? Was He saying they were lost? The truth is the reason Jesus explained so many of His parables was due to His disciples and apostles not understanding what He was talking about. But you say the elect have ears that hear. So are you saying since the apostles didn't understand His parables were they not the elect? Jesus even says "Get behind Me satan" and He is referring to St. Peter. Why would He ever refer to one of His elect as Satan?

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 12:30 AM
RW,
Could those He predestined be referring to the Gentiles? Could it be that God in His wisdom predestined the message of Christ to come to the Gentiles? Could it be that God knew that Israel would reject Christ and this would open the door for His predestined plan for the WHOLE world. This would allow ALL to be able to receive the message and not just Israel. Thus making 2 Peter 3:9 come into a new light.:hmm:

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Centurionoflight
May 25th 2007, 12:42 AM
2 Peter 2:20



Apostasy is blasphemy against the Spirit! Believing in your heart and confessing with your month and then getting to a point that you renounce the faith completely. From this state you can't return because you have denied the Spirit that lives in you (you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost).

From all other sins you can be restored if you confess and repent but from these you can't return.


We may fall and deny.

Psalm 37:24
Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

However it is God who will hold us.

We dont hold our self.

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 01:24 AM
2 Peter 2:20



We may fall and deny.

Psalm 37:24
Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

However it is God who will hold us.

We dont hold our self.

God holds us alright, He holds us accountable!

Ezek 18
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Now this says IF a righteous man turns from righteousness and commits sin none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. I don't think it can be any more plain! It doesn't matter if you live 90 years righteous and then you turn from that righteousness none of the things you did in those 90 years will be remembered. The good news is later in the chapter the message is repent and turn. So this means even though you might sin you can repent and turn and the Lord will forgive you. But you must ask yourself what would happen IF you didn't confess and repent of your sins? According to 1 John 1:9

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Now I believe every word of this! But because of the word "IF" it makes it conditional. If you confess He will forgive us but again I ask what the question what will happen IF you don't confess? I'll give you hint...it's the opposite of what the verse says!

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 01:49 AM
First let us understand and agree "to remain" in something you have to be in that thing. Right? Here is an example. Say for instance the police came to your house and asked you to remain indoors until further notice. Would you agree that for this statement to make any sense you would already have to be indoors to begin with? The police wouldn't tell you to remain somewhere if you were never there to being with. Here is another. Say you were living in Chicago and someone asked you if you were going to remain there. Do you agree you would have to be living in Chicago for this to make any sense? So how can you say that Jesus is not talking about believers that were in Christ at some point in John 15. They had to be IN Christ to be able to remain in Him. Right? To be IN Christ it makes sense that they HAD to accept Christ at some point.

You can try to spin it any way you want but the words are clear. You can say they were never truly saved and attempt to justify it but that is stretching the Bible to fit your doctrine instead of adjusting your doctrine to fit the Bible. I'll respond later to some of your other comments.

As I have explained using the parable of the sower there are many in the church who appear to be in Christ outwardly, but just as the parable shows us they could not "remain" because they were never saved. You can call this spinning the words of Christ, but you MUST deal with the parable.

RW

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 01:55 AM
RW,
You refer to those elect or the truly saved as those having a hearing and understanding that lost people can't comprehend. Yet, how many times did Jesus refer to His elect as dull, without understanding, etc.? Was He saying they were lost? The truth is the reason Jesus explained so many of His parables was due to His disciples and apostles not understanding what He was talking about. But you say the elect have ears that hear. So are you saying since the apostles didn't understand His parables were they not the elect? Jesus even says "Get behind Me satan" and He is referring to St. Peter. Why would He ever refer to one of His elect as Satan?

Prior to the Holy Spirit being sent to them they could not understand fully all Christ spoke to them.

Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

RW

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 01:57 AM
RW,
Could those He predestined be referring to the Gentiles? Could it be that God in His wisdom predestined the message of Christ to come to the Gentiles? Could it be that God knew that Israel would reject Christ and this would open the door for His predestined plan for the WHOLE world. This would allow ALL to be able to receive the message and not just Israel. Thus making 2 Peter 3:9 come into a new light.:hmm:

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Do you have any verses of Scripture to support this opinion?

RW

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 02:19 AM
Not according to that 2 Peter 2 passage.

2 Peter 2:17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they (false teachers) entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those (believers) who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them (believers) freedom while they themselves (false teachers) are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they (believers) have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they (believers) are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

So to say they were never in the faith... just doesn't work Scripturally.

They were not in the faith, they were in the covenant body, the church outwardly. They were being deceived by the false prophets and false teachers Peter is warning us are among us. Peter continues the warning in chap 3, and finally says, "therefore beloved seeing you know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." It does not say to the beloved you can fall away, or lose your salvation.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



Every man that believes and endures to the end... will be saved. You did leave that choice out more or less although your doctrine would allow that only the "elect" are saved so you did get it in with that understanding.

How do we believe and endure to the end?



Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

First came the preaching. Then the piercing of the heart. Then the repentance (changing of the mind) then the Spirit. Sounds an awful lot like what I have been saying doesn't it?

Not exactly! If we keep reading we find that only those who received the word became saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit? That would be ears to hear, and imputed faith enabling those who received his word to believe.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 02:30 AM
Do you have any verses of Scripture to support this opinion?

RW


Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=29&version=31&context=verse)
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,This is the only 4 verses in the NT that use the word predestined. Who were these 2 letters written to? Gentiles.

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 02:41 AM
RW,
You keep saying that 2 Peter 2 is referring to people who were not in the faith. I want to show you 2 Peter 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:


Who did Peter write this to? To those who have received a faith as precious as ours (Peter's and others). He was writing to people who he says has the same faith as him! Believers not sinners. If you are saying chapter 2 is talking about people that are not in the faith then Peter must not be in the faith either because he says they have the same faith.

How does one escape the world? Is it not through faith in Jesus Christ? Then how can you say they are not in the faith.

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 07:52 PM
RW,
You keep saying that 2 Peter 2 is referring to people who were not in the faith. I want to show you 2 Peter 1:1

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Who did Peter write this to? To those who have received a faith as precious as ours (Peter's and others). He was writing to people who he says has the same faith as him! Believers not sinners. If you are saying chapter 2 is talking about people that are not in the faith then Peter must not be in the faith either because he says they have the same faith.

How does one escape the world? Is it not through faith in Jesus Christ? Then how can you say they are not in the faith.

Yes Peter is writing to believers. Why? What is the purpose of the epistle? Beginning in chap 2:1 Peter says, BUT! This is a warning letter to believers, telling them false prophets and false teachers are among them.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring damnabe heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Peter compares these false, imposters of faith with the days of Noah, and the days of Lot, who were in their day among the unrighteous, but God delivered His righteous servants then, and Peter tells us He will also deliver the godly from temptation.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Peter tells us that those who are overcome are brought into bondage. This is a warning to Christians! There are among us servants of corruption, and those who are overcome by them are brought in bondage. It does not say the Christian will fall, but warns us that many will, and they will try to make YOU and I fall also.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage

The warning continues in chap 3 and Peter says, since we know these things be diligent, be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Don't let the false prophets, and false teachers take away your stedfast hope to the end. Nowhere in this letter does it say a Christian can lose his/her salvation, but it does warn us that many false professors of faith will turn away, and the consquences for them will be all the greater.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
May 25th 2007, 08:21 PM
RW,
You do realize that if believers can't "fall away" then Christ can never return. The falling away has to happen FIRST.

2 Thes 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Greek for this falling away is:
646ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] n (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1) f (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn2). Feminine of the same as 647; TDNT (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn3) 1:513; TDNTA (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn4) 88; GK (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn5) 686; Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn6) translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.

The definition of the word apostasy (I know I listed it before):
apostasy (Gk. (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1), apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a baptized person or a desertion by a professed religious who had taken perpetual vows.
For me to be able to fall off the roof of my house I would have to be on the roof to begin with. Right?

APPLY THIS SAME PRINCIPLE TO SCRIPTURE!

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 08:55 PM
RW,
You do realize that if believers can't "fall away" then Christ can never return. The falling away has to happen FIRST.

2 Thes 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Greek for this falling away is:
646ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] n (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1) f (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn2). Feminine of the same as 647; TDNT (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn3) 1:513; TDNTA (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn4) 88; GK (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn5) 686; Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn6) translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.

The definition of the word apostasy (I know I listed it before):
apostasy (Gk. (http://bibleforums.org/#_ftn1), apostasia, falling away) Total renunciation of the Christian faith by a baptized person or a desertion by a professed religious who had taken perpetual vows.
For me to be able to fall off the roof of my house I would have to be on the roof to begin with. Right?

APPLY THIS SAME PRINCIPLE TO SCRIPTURE!

Yes, but you really haven't stated what they fall away from. You are implying or assuming that believers fall away or apostasize from the true faith, lose their salvation. But I don't believe one having true faith can fall away from it. How could they, since Christ is keeping them? (He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ Php 1:6)

Many false professors can fall away from the covenant body (church) who had made a profession of faith, and been baptized, but how can they fall away from true faith? since very obviously they never had true faith? So this does not teach they apostasize from faith, or lose their salvation, it is a falling away from the church, apostazing, forsaking, defecting from the covenant body they claim to belong to and love. Many have, and are, and will fall away, apostasize from the eternal covenant body, i.e. church.

RW

RogerW
May 25th 2007, 09:30 PM
Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=29&version=31&context=verse)
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&verse=30&version=31&context=verse)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=1&verse=11&version=31&context=verse)
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,This is the only 4 verses in the NT that use the word predestined. Who were these 2 letters written to? Gentiles.

God has predestined or predetermined in His eternal purpose that all whom He saves shall one day be just like His Son, Jesus Christ, that Christ might be the firstborn among many brethren. Christ is the firstborn of ALL God's sons (they are chosen in Him). Ro 8:30 tells us those predestined are also those who are called, and those who are justified, and those who are glorified. If predestination applies only to the Gentiles, where does that leave believing Jews? They cannot be called, justified, and glorified if they too have not be predestined unto eternal life.

There is a desire to view God's foreknowledge to mean that God foresaw who would believe, but the word (as in 1Pe 1:2) is fore-ordained, fore-appointed by God from eternity past, before the world began.

Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

RW

DSK
May 26th 2007, 12:42 PM
Yes, but you really haven't stated what they fall away from.

RW

If I may interjet, I believe the following Scripture specifically states what they fall away (apostasize) from.

1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith

Depart from the faith - Αποστησονται - της πιστεως· They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity - Adam Clarke Commentary

I personally believe when the term "the faith" is used in Scripture, it can only be referring to the Christian faith. The one true faith. But that's just my thoughts, I realize you or others will disagree. Thats fine. At least I had my say.

Carry on

2 Peter 2:20
May 26th 2007, 01:15 PM
Yes, but you really haven't stated what they fall away from. You are implying or assuming that believers fall away or apostasize from the true faith, lose their salvation. But I don't believe one having true faith can fall away from it. How could they, since Christ is keeping them? (He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ Php 1:6)

Many false professors can fall away from the covenant body (church) who had made a profession of faith, and been baptized, but how can they fall away from true faith? since very obviously they never had true faith? So this does not teach they apostasize from faith, or lose their salvation, it is a falling away from the church, apostazing, forsaking, defecting from the covenant body they claim to belong to and love. Many have, and are, and will fall away, apostasize from the eternal covenant body, i.e. church.

RW

RW,
You keep saying they can't fall away from the true faith and those that fall away are the ones that fall from a false faith.

A false faith is really no faith at all! You can't fall from a false faith. It's not possible. Do you believe that Hinduism or Buddism are true faiths? If you believe the Bible you have to say no. How then can these people fall from a faith that you don't even consider a faith to begin with? It the same thing.

Again, A FALSE FAITH IS REALLY NO FAITH AT ALL! It is not even worthy to be classified as a faith just as all other false religions.

Paul's message throughout the Bible is to rebuke false teachings and to inform those in the faith to be careful of these false faiths or teachings. His purpose was to keep those in the faith from falling away.

2 Peter 2:20
May 26th 2007, 01:17 PM
RW

If I may interjet, I believe the following Scripture specifically states what they fall away (apostasize) from.

1 Tim 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith

Depart from the faith - Αποστησονται - της πιστεως· They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity - Adam Clarke Commentary

I personally believe when the term "the faith" is used in Scripture, it can only be referring to the Christian faith. The one true faith. But thats just my thoughts, I realize you or others will disagree. Thats fine. At least I had my say.

Carry on


Good Post! I was going to give RW this verse but you beat me to it!:o

ProjectPeter
May 26th 2007, 02:26 PM
As I have explained using the parable of the sower there are many in the church who appear to be in Christ outwardly, but just as the parable shows us they could not "remain" because they were never saved. You can call this spinning the words of Christ, but you MUST deal with the parable.

RWWhere in that parable does it even allude to the idea that they were "never saved?" The first one... sure. But the others... not sure how you can say with certainty that Christ was saying they were never really saved.

2 Peter 2:20
May 26th 2007, 02:32 PM
Where in that parable does it even allude to the idea that they were "never saved?" The first one... sure. But the others... not sure how you can say with certainty that Christ was saying they were never really saved.

I agree. In this parable Jesus uses words like received and understood. I think this implies they believed.

RogerW
May 26th 2007, 03:20 PM
RW,
You keep saying they can't fall away from the true faith and those that fall away are the ones that fall from a false faith.

A false faith is really no faith at all! You can't fall from a false faith. It's not possible. Do you believe that Hinduism or Buddism are true faiths? If you believe the Bible you have to say no. How then can these people fall from a faith that you don't even consider a faith to begin with? It the same thing.

Again, A FALSE FAITH IS REALLY NO FAITH AT ALL! It is not even worthy to be classified as a faith just as all other false religions.

Paul's message throughout the Bible is to rebuke false teachings and to inform those in the faith to be careful of these false faiths or teachings. His purpose was to keep those in the faith from falling away.

What is Paul talking about in this letter to Timothy? Is Paul telling us that Christians will depart from saving faith, fall away, lose their salvation? Absolutely NOT! This is not saying some depart from a false faith, they depart from the true faith, saving faith. Why? Because they never had saving faith, true faith to begin with. Is it because they are fallen Christians? Not at all, it is because they are false professors of Christianity.

The Holy Spirit through Paul warns us that in these last days those professing to be in Christ will listen to and follow after evil men who profess to speak for God, but who out of covetousness and hypocrisy deceitfully use the Word of God. These false professors of saving faith not only listen, but receive their lies and false doctrines.

This departure from the faith is their effort to persuade men to worship God and seek acceptance before Him through works of the flesh (such as abstaining from meats, from marriage, from food on certain days and observing rules and days of fasting).

Such men are inclined toward self-righteousness and carnal worship of God, not worshipping in Spirit and truth, but in their own vane imaginations. Satan takes advantage of these weak, fleshly men through his so-called ministers of righteousness, telling them they must do something, or give up something for salvation.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

These words from Paul were written to young Timothy, but they are not limited to him. Paul says if we remind our brethren of these things, we are nourished up in the words of faith and good doctrine, which we have attained.

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the BRETHREN in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

RW

RogerW
May 26th 2007, 03:29 PM
Where in that parable does it even allude to the idea that they were "never saved?" The first one... sure. But the others... not sure how you can say with certainty that Christ was saying they were never really saved.

Because after Christ speaks the parable He tells His disciples why He speaks in parables. Very clearly Christ is telling us that some are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, and others are not. Christ very plainly tells us that some will not see, hear, or understand.

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto yo to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

RW

threebigrocks
May 26th 2007, 03:55 PM
Yes, but that was explaining why Jesus spoke in parables generically, not specifically to the previous parable. Those who understand will know that Christ was speaking of those who did have faith, yet they didn't remain in the truth. He was giving examples of how to grow faith, not speaking of a faith that never existed. Not all who do have faith and are saved will remain, some will wither.

2 Peter 2:20
May 26th 2007, 04:13 PM
Because after Christ speaks the parable He tells His disciples why He speaks in parables. Very clearly Christ is telling us that some are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, and others are not. Christ very plainly tells us that some will not see, hear, or understand.

Yes, but you stated in an earlier post that they didn't recieve the understanding until the Holy Ghost came upon them. This parable is well before the Holy Ghost came. So using your process even the apostles didn't know the mysteries of the kingdom untl after the fact. So were they "not saved" at the time Jesus spoke most of His parables because they didn't understand?

RogerW
May 26th 2007, 06:16 PM
Yes, but that was explaining why Jesus spoke in parables generically, not specifically to the previous parable. Those who understand will know that Christ was speaking of those who did have faith, yet they didn't remain in the truth. He was giving examples of how to grow faith, not speaking of a faith that never existed. Not all who do have faith and are saved will remain, some will wither.

Here is Luke speaking of the same parable:

Lu 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Very clearly, Christ says some will not hear, see, or understand, and He likens them to seeds falling on particular ground.

RW

threebigrocks
May 26th 2007, 06:30 PM
Here is Luke speaking of the same parable:

Lu 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Very clearly, Christ says some will not hear, see, or understand, and He likens them to seeds falling on particular ground.

RW

True, but we were discusing Matthew 13, not this Luke verse. ;)

RogerW
May 26th 2007, 06:35 PM
Yes, but you stated in an earlier post that they didn't recieve the understanding until the Holy Ghost came upon them. This parable is well before the Holy Ghost came. So using your process even the apostles didn't know the mysteries of the kingdom untl after the fact. So were they "not saved" at the time Jesus spoke most of His parables because they didn't understand?

Christ made a distinction between the multitude He spoke to in parables and His disciples when He said, "Because it is given unto yo to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Christ made this distinction knowing that His disciples did not have complete understanding, and would not until the HS came. Christ even grew weary with His disciples because it seemed they were very slow to understand, but there is no indication in Scripture that any of His chosen disciples would ever be lost, except for Judas Iscariot, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Christ seems to be short with Peter because He had not understood "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?" So, even though the disciples lacked complete understanding while Christ remained with them, they did not remain without understanding after the HS came.

Mt 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mt 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

RW

RogerW
May 26th 2007, 06:40 PM
True, but we were discusing Matthew 13, not this Luke verse. ;)

They are both recording the same parable, it is in looking at every place in Scripture where the same topic is discussed that we get the full understanding. This is why we have the same events recorded more than once. Look at the parable in context of each gospel writer and you will better understand Christ's words.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 28th 2007, 08:28 PM
They were not in the faith, they were in the covenant body, the church outwardly. They were being deceived by the false prophets and false teachers Peter is warning us are among us. Peter continues the warning in chap 3, and finally says, "therefore beloved seeing you know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." It does not say to the beloved you can fall away, or lose your salvation.

Oh part of the church eh? Well let's see if you can show me one of the passages that tell us that the church body has the power to do these things?

2 Peter 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Now I know that the church is a great place and all... this is describing something that the church cannot do. This is where I marvel at the extent that folks go to try and make the folks here "non-Christians." The text is clear hear that this is speaking of saved folks that escaped this corrupt world... go back to chapter 1.

2 Peter 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

This is the very theme of this letter by Peter and folks would do well reading the letter as it was intended to be read. The whole thing. These folks he is speaking of are folks that escaped but turned back to sin like a dog does his own vomit or a pig does to the mud.



How do we believe and endure to the end?Again... go back to chapter 1. Add to your faith virtue, add to virtue knowledge... to knowledge add self-control and to self-control add godliness..... progress in those things and you'll never stumble making your call and election secure.



Not exactly! If we keep reading we find that only those who received the word became saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit? That would be ears to hear, and imputed faith enabling those who received his word to believe.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

RWSure and you won't find me disagreeing there. But then again my point is EXACTLY correct. They were not filled with the Spirit first and then received anything. You either totally missed the point or you forgot what we were speaking of or you just blew it off. Let folks reading see it though and that works for me. ;)

2 Peter 2:20
May 28th 2007, 11:40 PM
Another good post by PP:D:D

2 Peter 2:20
May 29th 2007, 01:09 AM
For those who are OSAS believers,

It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:

4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1275388#_ftn6) translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.


Romans 13:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Peter 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.

I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.

These are some questions I ask to better understand.

Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?

This is just some more food for thought:hmm::hmm:

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 01:35 AM
Oh part of the church eh? Well let's see if you can show me one of the passages that tell us that the church body has the power to do these things?

2 Peter 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Now I know that the church is a great place and all... this is describing something that the church cannot do. This is where I marvel at the extent that folks go to try and make the folks here "non-Christians." The text is clear hear that this is speaking of saved folks that escaped this corrupt world... go back to chapter 1.

2 Peter 1:3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

This is the very theme of this letter by Peter and folks would do well reading the letter as it was intended to be read. The whole thing. These folks he is speaking of are folks that escaped but turned back to sin like a dog does his own vomit or a pig does to the mud.

Again... go back to chapter 1. Add to your faith virtue, add to virtue knowledge... to knowledge add self-control and to self-control add godliness..... progress in those things and you'll never stumble making your call and election secure.

Sure and you won't find me disagreeing there. But then again my point is EXACTLY correct. They were not filled with the Spirit first and then received anything. You either totally missed the point or you forgot what we were speaking of or you just blew it off. Let folks reading see it though and that works for me. ;)

How do spiritually dead men become pricked in their hearts upon hearing the Word? If one is spiritually dead, then one would not be able to be spiritually pricked, unless the Spirit is there applying the Word to their hearts and conscience. Can those who are spiritually dead receive gladly those spiritual truths unto salvation, without intervention of the Holy Spirit?

You seem to be reading vs. 38 as “ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.” But the passage says, “ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is already there, this is why their hearts were pricked when they heard the Word. Now the Holy Spirit will impart the gift of God, i.e. salvation by grace through faith, and this not of themselves, but the gift of God.

Ac 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The same warnings to the church we find in Peter are found throughout. Again and again we are being warned that there are imposters of Christ among us. These are false prophets, and false teachers who love the world more then they love Christ, because they are not truly in Christ. They follow the lust of the flesh, and try very hard to get all the body to follow their evil ways.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ::
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The warnings in Peter are not that Christians can lose their salvation, it is warning us of the false teachers and false prophets among us, who claim the name of Christ. Christians are not being warned because we can lose our salvation, but to understand that we live in a fallen world surrounded by those who are opposed to Christ, and His kingdom. They will stop at nothing in their battle against the Lord. Our battle is a spiritual battle, and this is why we must recognize those among us who would destroy the body of Christ is they could. Forewarned is forearmed.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might..
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 01:50 AM
Yes Peter is writing to believers. Why? What is the purpose of the epistle? Beginning in chap 2:1 Peter says, BUT! This is a warning letter to believers, telling them false prophets and false teachers are among them.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring damnabe heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Peter compares these false, imposters of faith with the days of Noah, and the days of Lot, who were in their day among the unrighteous, but God delivered His righteous servants then, and Peter tells us He will also deliver the godly from temptation.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Peter tells us that those who are overcome are brought into bondage. This is a warning to Christians! There are among us servants of corruption, and those who are overcome by them are brought in bondage. It does not say the Christian will fall, but warns us that many will, and they will try to make YOU and I fall also.

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage

The warning continues in chap 3 and Peter says, since we know these things be diligent, be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Don't let the false prophets, and false teachers take away your stedfast hope to the end. Nowhere in this letter does it say a Christian can lose his/her salvation, but it does warn us that many false professors of faith will turn away, and the consquences for them will be all the greater.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

RWWell you even have a problem trying to paint the false teachers as never being believers as well. Take a look early on in that passage.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Now... if they were purchased by Christ then how can you say they were never really saved to begin with? Especially with the Calvinist leanings which CANNOT allow for that since it would be your belief that only the elect were "bought by Christ." So I would go as far as to say that even these false teachers spoken of were saved at some point in their time.

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 01:52 AM
Because after Christ speaks the parable He tells His disciples why He speaks in parables. Very clearly Christ is telling us that some are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, and others are not. Christ very plainly tells us that some will not see, hear, or understand.

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto yo to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

RWAnd my question still stands. Were in that parable do you see they were "never believers in the first place?" I've read it countless times and in many translations and don't even see that alluded to in the words of Jesus.

2 Peter 2:20
May 29th 2007, 01:53 AM
Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
When do you receive the knowledge of the truth? Does a lost person receive the knowledge of the truth?


Hebrews 6:4-6 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Do sinners share in the Holy Spirit?

John 15:4-8 NIV 4Remain in me and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
What happens if you don’t remain in Christ? Your answer is in verse 6!

2 Peter 3:17 NIV 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
What secure position is Peter talking about? Compare this with 2 Peter 1:10
2 Peter 1:10 NIV 10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

1 Peter 2:10-11 NIV 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. 11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
How can there be a war against your soul if there is nothing to loose?

Galatians 5:19-21 NIV 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Why would Paul be warning them (believers)?

Ephesians 5:5 NIV 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Again, why would Paul warn them (believer) about these things if there was nothing to loose?

Romans 2:6-8 6 Who will render to every man
according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
What happens if you do not continue in well doing?

Romans 11:22 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shall be cut off.
What happens if you don’t continue in his goodness? What does cut off mean?

Hebrews 3:6 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
What happens if we don’t hold fast unto the end?

Hebrews 3:14 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end
Same question as above?

Hebrews 10:36-38 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
What happens if you draw back?

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 02:48 AM
Well you even have a problem trying to paint the false teachers as never being believers as well. Take a look early on in that passage.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Now... if they were purchased by Christ then how can you say they were never really saved to begin with? Especially with the Calvinist leanings which CANNOT allow for that since it would be your belief that only the elect were "bought by Christ." So I would go as far as to say that even these false teachers spoken of were saved at some point in their time.

Are you suggesting that Christ purchased unrepentant false prophets and false teachers? Those who bring in damnable heresies, and bring swift destruction upon themselves? Perhaps you are not properly understanding what it means to "deny the Lord that bought them"?

These are the unjust to be punished on the day of judgment. And as I said the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, so the godly need not fear losing their salvation.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 02:51 AM
And my question still stands. Were in that parable do you see they were "never believers in the first place?" I've read it countless times and in many translations and don't even see that alluded to in the words of Jesus.

If I may ask you, where do you see there were believers, other than the seed that fell upon good ground (which I think you would agree falling on good ground and bearing much fruit refers to believers)?

RW

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 03:15 AM
For those who are OSAS believers,

It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:

4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1275388#_ftn6) translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.


Romans 13:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Peter 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.

I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.

These are some questions I ask to better understand.

Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?This is just some more food for thought:hmm::hmm:

Since its late, and my body is complaining loudly, I'll answer your questions now, and then attempt to reconcile every passage you posted with my beliefs as soon as possible.

Questions:

1. yes
2. salvation is not the end of my faith it begins my faith
3. read it in context, it's addressed to the church, not of your souls, but the deliverance of the church from strife and division
4. the hope we look for is eternal in heaven, city made without hands (He 11:16; 12:22) 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Paul is speaking to believers of all time who will obtain salvation, living or dead we live together with Him

Rev 12:10 "now is come salvation." What is the time reference here? This whole chapter speaks of the beginning of the NT church era, or kingdom era. It began at the cross. Christ ushered in world wide salvation to complete the Kingdom when He went to the cross, and was resurrected to life.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 03:20 AM
How do spiritually dead men become pricked in their hearts upon hearing the Word? If one is spiritually dead, then one would not be able to be spiritually pricked, unless the Spirit is there applying the Word to their hearts and conscience. Can those who are spiritually dead receive gladly those spiritual truths unto salvation, without intervention of the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit that does the conviction. But that doesn't mean nor imply that the Spirit of God is dwelling within a person. No where does Scripture teach such but contrary to that actually.



You seem to be reading vs. 38 as “ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.” But the passage says, “ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit is already there, this is why their hearts were pricked when they heard the Word. Now the Holy Spirit will impart the gift of God, i.e. salvation by grace through faith, and this not of themselves, but the gift of God.

Ac 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Um... actually you have another issue because in Acts a bit further Peter makes it clear those whom are indwelt by the Spirit of God...

Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

You are trying to say that they have it before they have obeyed Him. Again... problematic when held up to Scripture.




The same warnings to the church we find in Peter are found throughout. Again and again we are being warned that there are imposters of Christ among us. These are false prophets, and false teachers who love the world more then they love Christ, because they are not truly in Christ. They follow the lust of the flesh, and try very hard to get all the body to follow their evil ways.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ::
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Ga 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

The warnings in Peter are not that Christians can lose their salvation, it is warning us of the false teachers and false prophets among us, who claim the name of Christ. Christians are not being warned because we can lose our salvation, but to understand that we live in a fallen world surrounded by those who are opposed to Christ, and His kingdom. They will stop at nothing in their battle against the Lord. Our battle is a spiritual battle, and this is why we must recognize those among us who would destroy the body of Christ is they could. Forewarned is forearmed.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might..
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil..
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

RWAs pointed out before... you are going to then explain how it is that these folks were in fact purchased by Christ and yet were not ever saved. Again I will figure you'll have a difficult time showing Scripturally and even according to your own doctrine how that works.

Mind you that we don't disagree that they aren't in Christ now (or at the time of the writing) but your idea that they never were... I just think it fails the test of what is actually written in the passage itself.

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 03:24 AM
Are you suggesting that Christ purchased unrepentant false prophets and false teachers? Those who bring in damnable heresies, and bring swift destruction upon themselves? Perhaps you are not properly understanding what it means to "deny the Lord that bought them"?

These are the unjust to be punished on the day of judgment. And as I said the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, so the godly need not fear losing their salvation.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
What does that passage say? You can read it I figure and that is in fact what it says right?

Remember that whole "you were bought with a price" passage and all that... perhaps you care to explain how it is that they were purchased by Christ and yet... they weren't saved? Again... give me some Scripture on this concept you have. I know your doctrine... but please back this point up with Scripture. That would be a big help.

deaconk
May 29th 2007, 04:01 AM
21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Can a OSAS person please tell me how an UNSAVED person can cast out demons and prophecy without the Holy Spirit in operation? We read here that saved persons (filled with the Holy SPirit) are cast out of the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ on the day of judgment - be forewarned!!!!In Christ,Justin

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 12:08 PM
If I may ask you, where do you see there were believers, other than the seed that fell upon good ground (which I think you would agree falling on good ground and bearing much fruit refers to believers)?

RW
Take the rocky soil. They believe for a while right?

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Here is your Greek for believe there.

pisteuo

to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Naturally we know according to the parable that they don't persevere and we know that persevering is a must. But again... you will have a hard time with the "they never believed in the first place" ideology because it say quite different.

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 02:09 PM
For those who are OSAS believers,

It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:

4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1275388#_ftn6) translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.


Romans 13:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Peter 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.

I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.

These are some questions I ask to better understand.

Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?This is just some more food for thought:hmm::hmm:

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
When we read this passage in context, we see this is speaking of being bodily raised from the dead to our inheritance in heaven. At the appearing (Second Coming) of Christ, believers receive their incorruptible inheritance, that never fades away, reserved for us in heaven, and kept by the power of God, and revealed in the fullness of time.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

RW

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 03:43 PM
For those who are OSAS believers,

It is said that you can't lose your salvation. Right? I'm going to give some verses for you guys/gals to think about. First the Greek for salvation:

4991σωτηρία [soteria /so·tay·ree·ah/] 45 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1275388#_ftn6) translates as “salvation” 40 times, “the (one) be saved” once, “deliver + 1325” once, “health” once, “saving” once, and “that (one) be saved + 1519” once. 1 deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation. 1a deliverance from the molestation of enemies. 1b in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation. 1b1 of Messianic salvation. 2 salvation as the present possession of all true Christians. 3 future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.


Romans 13:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=13&verse=11&version=9&context=verse)
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Philippians 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=3&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 1:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Peter 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

If you look at the 3rd definition of the Greek you will see that it is a future salvation. All these verses do seem to allude to a future salvation. I know there are verses that make it seem like it is a present salvation as well. If you look at the 2nd definition of the Greek you will see that also. I think this is the heart of the matter where OSAS and non-OSAS believers are divided.

I myself think of my salvation as a future event based on these scriptures. I'm qualified for it but I haven't attained it yet. I will not attain my salvation until the end of my faith as St. Peter puts it. Add this to what St. Paul says about finishing the race and keeping the faith. So what I do the rest of my life affects this salvation. That's why I can't believe OSAS.

These are some questions I ask to better understand.

Do we attain salvation the moment we believe?
If receiving salvation is the end of my faith (based on scripture it is) and I recieved salvation the moment I accepted Christ then why do we need to continue to have faith if we have received our goal of faith?
We must continue to work out our own salvation according to scripture. How can this be if we have already received it?
One verse says to put on the helmet, the hope of salvation. In another verse it says you don't hope for something you already have. If we receive salvation the moment we believe in Jesus then it couldn't be hope anymore because we can't hope for what we already have. Right?This is just some more food for thought:hmm::hmm:

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a falme of fire.
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Who are the heirs of salvation and they that are ministered by these spirit beings? Believers are the heirs of salvation, and this is speaking to believers throughout time. The ministry of the angels are of things concerning both our bodies, and immortal souls. These direct and preserve us in our journeys through life, in deliverance from danger, in restraining things that would bring us harm until we have become saved. Some like to refer to these as guardian angels. They are sent forth by Christ to minister unto us until we become saved. Once we have been born again, we have the indwelling Spirit to lead and guide us.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Paul certainly did not consider that Timothy’s salvation was yet future. Timothy demonstrated faith, which produces belief, that reliance upon Christ for salvation.

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
The elect are those chosen by God and given to Christ, all of these receive salvation in this physical life, and eternal glory in the life to come.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again the last day.

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

We live together with Him whether we be dead or alive. To live with Him we MUST have received salvation in this life.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We cannot work out our salvation without the presence of God working in us. Since it is God working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure, we are already saved. It is not a future salvation, but salvation through God, Who is working in us now.

Ro 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

To believe means that one has received saving faith, so how can salvation be yet future? When Paul says our salvation is nearer than when we believed (have received saving faith) he is again referring to our final state in glory. This verse could be interpreted thus, “for now is our incorruptible salvation nearer than then when we first became saved.” We know Paul is speaking about the salvation of our physical bodies from corruption because he tells us, “the day is at hand.” This can only be reference to the Day of the Lord, His Second Coming.

How do you reconcile passages that speak of having obtained salvation in this life with the view that salvation is future? This view causes contradiction in the Word of God, which cannot be reconciled through your interpretation. How do you reconcile for instance this passage that speaks in the past tense, saying those foreknown by God have been predestinated, have been called, have been justified, and have been glorified…have been! It is true that we do await our final salvation, when we will receive our glorified resurrected incorruptible bodies, but we have great assurance NOW that we have become sons of God.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he [past tense] power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

RW

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 04:34 PM
It is the Spirit that does the conviction. But that doesn't mean nor imply that the Spirit of God is dwelling within a person. No where does Scripture teach such but contrary to that actually.


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Not only does God promise to send His Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, but He also promises that through the Holy Spirit He hath sealed us until the final redemption of His elect.



Um... actually you have another issue because in Acts a bit further Peter makes it clear those whom are indwelt by the Spirit of God...

Acts 5:32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

You are trying to say that they have it before they have obeyed Him. Again... problematic when held up to Scripture.

This verse is speaking of Peter, and the other apostles. Are you saying that Peter and the apostles had not obeyed Him? Who are those who obey, and what obedience? Could it be repent, believe?



As pointed out before... you are going to then explain how it is that these folks were in fact purchased by Christ and yet were not ever saved. Again I will figure you'll have a difficult time showing Scripturally and even according to your own doctrine how that works.

Mind you that we don't disagree that they aren't in Christ now (or at the time of the writing) but your idea that they never were... I just think it fails the test of what is actually written in the passage itself.

It would not be logical to assume "the Lord that bought them" is referring to unrepentant false prophets and false teachers, who bring damnable heresies, and whose end is swift destruction. I could try to read into Scripture an opinion, assuming they must have at one point been in Christ, and now they are not. But, this is reading a presuposition into the text that is NOT there. Rather than second guessing the verse, I will accept what the verse plainly tells me. These are false prophets, false teachers who have crept into the church, with damnable heresy to try to decieve the unlearned.

Why would the passage say these false prophets, and false teachers deny the Lord that bought them? Every true preacher/teacher will give Christ His proper place and glory, and all false bring heresies that deny in some way the redemptive power of the Lord. We are called to test the spirits of these false prophets to see if they be of God. All false preachers/teachers will deny or diminish in some way the work of Christ as Just and Justifier.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Since these false prophets, and teachers are among the people of God in the churches, they are in a certain sense in the body of Christ, that He purchased with His blood. So they are among those whom Christ has bought , but most assuredly they are there through deception, and will be cast out of the kingdom on the last day.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 05:33 PM
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Not only does God promise to send His Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, but He also promises that through the Holy Spirit He hath sealed us until the final redemption of His elect. But you are saying that it indwells the person even before they believe. Again... a bit problematic.



This verse is speaking of Peter, and the other apostles. Are you saying that Peter and the apostles had not obeyed Him? Who are those who obey, and what obedience? Could it be repent, believe? Sure... no problem with that at all. But it doesn't leave it as future event. For your doctrine that they are filled with the Spirit before believing thus enabling them to believe... you have them filled with the Spirit before obeying. That text doesn't allow for that at all.



It would not be logical to assume "the Lord that bought them" is referring to unrepentant false prophets and false teachers, who bring damnable heresies, and whose end is swift destruction. I could try to read into Scripture an opinion, assuming they must have at one point been in Christ, and now they are not. But, this is reading a presuposition into the text that is NOT there. Rather than second guessing the verse, I will accept what the verse plainly tells me. These are false prophets, false teachers who have crept into the church, with damnable heresy to try to decieve the unlearned. Ok so how does that work? Ignore the fact that they were purchased by Christ? The text clearly shows that it is speaking of these same false prophets so who is it that it is speaking of if not them? It isn't presupposing anything. It says it quite clearly does it not?



Why would the passage say these false prophets, and false teachers deny the Lord that bought them? Every true preacher/teacher will give Christ His proper place and glory, and all false bring heresies that deny in some way the redemptive power of the Lord. We are called to test the spirits of these false prophets to see if they be of God. All false preachers/teachers will deny or diminish in some way the work of Christ as Just and Justifier. Because they fell. Just as the pair that Paul mentions in his first and second letter to Timothy. Just as John mentioned in his letter to Gaius. It happens... people stray from the truth.




1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Since these false prophets, and teachers are among the people of God in the churches, they are in a certain sense in the body of Christ, that He purchased with His blood. So they are among those whom Christ has bought , but most assuredly they are there through deception, and will be cast out of the kingdom on the last day.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

RWSo how does that work according to Calvinism which would never allow that Christ "purchased" anyone that wasn't a part of the elect? That is the rub here that has my curiosity high.

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 06:23 PM
21"(A)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"(B)Many will say to Me on (C)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (D)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Can a OSAS person please tell me how an UNSAVED person can cast out demons and prophecy without the Holy Spirit in operation? We read here that saved persons (filled with the Holy SPirit) are cast out of the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ on the day of judgment - be forewarned!!!!In Christ,Justin

Where does the passage say they cast out demons and prophesy through the power of the Holy Spirit? It does NOT! It says, they did many good works in the name of Christ. How many times are we warned in Scripture of those who come into the church, professing to be of Christ, who are in fact false prophets, false teachers, under the power of their father the Devil? Christ warns us, Mt 24:5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." These are not believers who lose their salvation, these are deceivers, falsely professing to do many good works in Christ, but in truth they have no part in Him. Which is why on the last day Christ rejects them.

RW

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 06:37 PM
Take the rocky soil. They believe for a while right?

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 "And the seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Here is your Greek for believe there.

pisteuo

to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Naturally we know according to the parable that they don't persevere and we know that persevering is a must. But again... you will have a hard time with the "they never believed in the first place" ideology because it say quite different.

We also know from the parable that what ever, or who ever they believed in, it is not Christ. For the parable tells us, "and these have no root." What does it mean to have no root? The Root is Christ, and if we have no root, we have no part in Christ. For it is He (the Root) which bears us up, we do not bear up the root.

Ro 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

It seems the words of Christ to His disciples is fulfilled, "but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

RW

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 06:47 PM
We also know from the parable that what ever, or who ever they believed in, it is not Christ. For the parable tells us, "and these have no root." What does it mean to have no root? The Root is Christ, and if we have no root, we have no part in Christ. For it is He (the Root) which bears us up, we do not bear up the root.

Ro 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Ro 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

It seems the words of Christ to His disciples is fulfilled, "but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

RW
Um.... so one can "believe/trust" in Christ and that isn't really enough? Didn't you earlier say that this is all that is required?

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 09:56 PM
But you are saying that it indwells the person even before they believe. Again... a bit problematic.

The Holy Spirit is God! We've come full circle once more. How can a spiritually dead man respond in faith and belief if he/she has no spiritual life? You have yet to explain this, even though you stated that you think you explained it very well.



Sure... no problem with that at all. But it doesn't leave it as future event. For your doctrine that they are filled with the Spirit before believing thus enabling them to believe... you have them filled with the Spirit before obeying. That text doesn't allow for that at all.

Of course the text allows this. We hear the Word, just as they did, if we have been chosen to receive salvation, then the Holy Spirit opens our ears to hear, and imputes faith that we WILL repent and believe. I'm sorry you don't understand this, but unless the HS does a supernatural work in our hearts, then we, be spiritually dead will never hear, or receive faith to repent and believe. We must receive Spiritual life before we can obey His command to repent and believe.



Ok so how does that work? Ignore the fact that they were purchased by Christ? The text clearly shows that it is speaking of these same false prophets so who is it that it is speaking of if not them? It isn't presupposing anything. It says it quite clearly does it not?

Because they fell. Just as the pair that Paul mentions in his first and second letter to Timothy. Just as John mentioned in his letter to Gaius. It happens... people stray from the truth.

So how does that work according to Calvinism which would never allow that Christ "purchased" anyone that wasn't a part of the elect? That is the rub here that has my curiosity high.

I can and will further elaborate, but in regard to the labeling (Calvinism) I am fairly certain that your only interest is to cling tightly to what you believe. And it would not matter how many verses of Scripture I bring to show you why Christians cannot lose their salvation, you will continue to argue against the Scriptures. I've seen this tactic before, when one cannot biblically dispute, they engage in character attack, and I feel certain that labeling me a Calvinist is not a complimentary term. Especially since I have in this thread stated that I have never read nor studied the works of Calvin. Regarding "the Lord that bought them"

God is speaking of “them” coming in to be part of the Church which was purchased. Therefore “them” is the Church they come into and are outwardly part of. They are part of the Church in the sense that He has purchased with His own blood. But this is the church in the world, that symbolizes the Eternal Church, but as long as she exists in this world, she will be made up of both believers and unbelievers.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

God speaks of “them” as part of the external church in the world. The Eternal Church was purchased, and these come in as part of that Church, which is why it says there are false teachers among you (believers). Even though they are unsaved, they have entered in as part of the external church in the world, and are outwardly, part of “them” who were bought. The topic is not the purchase of Christians by the death of Christ, but the deception of false Christians who by private interpretations, bring damnable heresies into this Church 'denying the Lord who bought them.'

It is through their heresies that they reveal themselves as false. There are false prophets or false teachers who come into the universal church, who call themselves Christian, but who by their doctrines, deny the Christ that bought them (Christians). It is not saying Christ bought false Christians, rather, that they are professed Christians, part of the external New Covenant Church, who, by their heresy deny the Christ that bought them.
Peter urges the Church in the preceding chapter (verse 10) to make their calling and election sure, and then throughout chapter 2 speaks of those in the universal church who are professing Christians, but are not truly Saved.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is the very same type language, where God is speaking of these false Christians as if they were truly saved, as if they were bought. A believer is not referred to as a dog, or a pig, but these, who turned away from the holy commandment and reveal themselves to be reprobate among the covenant body. These false professors co-exist with the elect, and are considered part of the body outwardly, but they are never among the believers, the elect of God. Although many false professors can be among the covenant body outwardly, it is the Eternal Church that the gates of hell shall never prevail against.

And just as verses 20-22 is NOT speaking of people who were saved and then lost their salvation, neither is verse 2 speaking of people who were actually bought by the blood of Christ, and then became un-bought. It is speaking of those who come in to the Church which was bought, and deny Christ by their works. Because they have never become 'a new creature' in Christ, they return to just what they always were. In accord with verses 20-22, they were Sows (pigs) and Dogs. Once we become saved, we are no longer sows, no longer dogs, but have become a new creature. Anyone can call themselves the Church, bought of Christ, but it's what is inside that counts.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Here again we find unbelievers who profess to know God, but of whom God says “in works” they deny Him. False prophets have not been bought (redeemed) by the blood of the Lamb. All those bought by Christ have been justified by His work on the cross.

RW

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 10:01 PM
Um.... so one can "believe/trust" in Christ and that isn't really enough? Didn't you earlier say that this is all that is required?

Where in the parable does it say they believe/trust in Christ? How can one who has no part of the Root (which is Christ) believe/trust in Him?

RW

ProjectPeter
May 29th 2007, 10:07 PM
Where in the parable does it say they believe/trust in Christ? How can one who has no part of the Root (which is Christ) believe/trust in Him?

RW
Hey Roger,

It says that they believed for awhile. In keeping with the context of the parable... what do you think it was that they believed in? I mean come on and think about this a sec. It says simply... they believed for a while. It is speaking of the word being sown. Simply speaking... they BELIEVED that word being sown for a while but when temptation came... they fell away. But for a bit of time... they believed. So again... earlier you said this is what it took to be saved and yet with these folks you are saying it takes more?

RogerW
May 29th 2007, 11:38 PM
Hey Roger,

It says that they believed for awhile. In keeping with the context of the parable... what do you think it was that they believed in? I mean come on and think about this a sec. It says simply... they believed for a while. It is speaking of the word being sown. Simply speaking... they BELIEVED that word being sown for a while but when temptation came... they fell away. But for a bit of time... they believed. So again... earlier you said this is what it took to be saved and yet with these folks you are saying it takes more?

Perhaps showing the parable as recorded in both gospels will help you to see that the parable does not tell us that believers can lose their salvation.

Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Lu 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever have not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

I’m sure you know that if one claims to be in Christ (believer), and has not the ROOT (Christ), he/she CANNOT truly be in Christ. Luke tells us these without the Root believed for a time, and then fell away. In vs. 18 Luke tells us they could not endure because they only SEEMED to have received the Word with joy, and believed for a while. This parable is showing us that there will be many among the people of God, who profess belief, but who are in reality false professors. This parable does NOT tell us that believers can fall away, lose their salvation.

How could Christians ever lose their salvation when they are kept by the power of God?

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

RW

ProjectPeter
May 30th 2007, 01:35 AM
Perhaps showing the parable as recorded in both gospels will help you to see that the parable does not tell us that believers can lose their salvation. That is what I did to show you that they in fact believed. You are still not facing the fact that the Scripture in fact says that they believed for a while. They believed in the word sown... the same word that the "good soil" believed in and yet persevered and produced fruit etc. So their belief was there. Now I am trying to reconcile this with what you said earlier when you made it clear that their "believing" was all that it takes for them to be saved. So here is what we have. They believed (for a while)... since that fills your requirement for salvation... how is it that they "were never saved in the first place?" That is where I am at now in trying to reconcile all that you are saying the Scripture teaches.


Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mt 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Lu 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever have not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
I’m sure you know that if one claims to be in Christ (believer), and has not the ROOT (Christ), he/she CANNOT truly be in Christ. Luke tells us these without the Root believed for a time, and then fell away. In vs. 18 Luke tells us they could not endure because they only SEEMED to have received the Word with joy, and believed for a while. This parable is showing us that there will be many among the people of God, who profess belief, but who are in reality false professors. This parable does NOT tell us that believers can fall away, lose their salvation. In keeping in mind that this is a parable... why do you think the "root" here is Christ? There is nothing in this parable that would take us there and in fact that should be contrary to the parable. There is no focus on the root other than the fact that they had no deep root and thus they fell away. The focus is on the word which is the seed and the various types of soil (for an example). One... the devil snatches up the seed. One the seed takes but as the plant grows the root isn't deep enough because of the stony ground. The other... the word (seed) takes root as well but it is the cares of the world that choke out the word (notice the focus on the word and no root etc.). So trying to make the root here into Christ... I figure you are taking the parable way off from what was intended.



How could Christians ever lose their salvation when they are kept by the power of God?

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

RWKeep this one in mind and we'll certainly talk about it later. Right now there are several verses out on the table and I'd like to try and reconcile those before running elsewhere if you don't mind. :)

RogerW
May 30th 2007, 03:08 AM
That is what I did to show you that they in fact believed. You are still not facing the fact that the Scripture in fact says that they believed for a while. They believed in the word sown... the same word that the "good soil" believed in and yet persevered and produced fruit etc. So their belief was there. Now I am trying to reconcile this with what you said earlier when you made it clear that their "believing" was all that it takes for them to be saved. So here is what we have. They believed (for a while)... since that fills your requirement for salvation... how is it that they "were never saved in the first place?" That is where I am at now in trying to reconcile all that you are saying the Scripture teaches.

Do you believe that everyone in the church who says they believe are Christians? The Bible is filled with verses telling us there are many in covenant with us, in the church, who claim, even seem to believe, but who are in fact reprobate. Do you think the many who stand before the Judgment Throne on the last day, surprised that the Lord would say, "depart from Me, I never knew you" sincerely believed they were saved? As I have also said, faith/belief and repentance are meaningless without the indwelling Spirit. Anyone can say "I believe", and even believe they are saved, but if they have no root, they cannot be in Christ.



In keeping in mind that this is a parable... why do you think the "root" here is Christ? There is nothing in this parable that would take us there and in fact that should be contrary to the parable. There is no focus on the root other than the fact that they had no deep root and thus they fell away. The focus is on the word which is the seed and the various types of soil (for an example). One... the devil snatches up the seed. One the seed takes but as the plant grows the root isn't deep enough because of the stony ground. The other... the word (seed) takes root as well but it is the cares of the world that choke out the word (notice the focus on the word and no root etc.). So trying to make the root here into Christ... I figure you are taking the parable way off from what was intended.

The passage does NOT say they had no deep root, it says "they have NO root." You may not want to understand the meaning of "the root", but the only root I know of that can give spiritual life is the Lord. Jesus tells us that He is the Root.

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Christ also says that not only must we abide in Him, but He must also abide in us, and without this abiding (ROOT) we cannot bear fruit.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

False prophets come among us pretending to belong, but they are wolves ready to devour the unwary. We will know them by their fruit, that fruit which we cannot bear unless we abide in Him, and He in us.

Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit..
Mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Christ tells us that this false Christ' and false prophets are so convincing that if it were possible they would deceive the very elect of God.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These deceitful liars transform themselves into the apostles of Christ, and Satan himself is transformed into an angel (messenger) of light, and his ministers also are transformed as ministers of righteousness.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Then there are also the false brothers who sneak in, trying to bring the elect back into bondage. This passage sounds a lot like the passage in 2Pe 2, those who deny the Lord that bought them.

Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Ga 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Antichrists among us! Who go out from the church, proving themselves never to have belonged.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

RW

BlessedMan
May 30th 2007, 03:29 AM
No. Once one falls away from Christ in that light, they can never be "resaved".

I stumble. You stumble. But that doesn't make us damned. What is spoken of here is fully knowing Christ, and turning away anyhow, deliberately.

And, there is much more than Hebrews 6 to support the idea of truly falling away from God.
Yeah I agree, mostly, actually as I don t believe there is a Anti-God where is one going to fall away to.

ProjectPeter
May 31st 2007, 02:31 AM
Do you believe that everyone in the church who says they believe are Christians?Paul nor the other Apostle's were writing the unbelievers... be they in the church or elsewhere. They were writing to the church for edification, instruction, and even chastising them when needed. So this idea that they wrote to the "unbelievers" when dealing with passages outside of our doctrinal comfort zones... I personally don't take that road nor do I argue against it. It makes no sense and doesn't stand to reason and there isn't any serious Bible scholar that would go that route for that very reason. No slam intended... it just doesn't work although I understand why folks pull that card out at times.


The Bible is filled with verses telling us there are many in covenant with us, in the church, who claim, even seem to believe, but who are in fact reprobate. Do you think the many who stand before the Judgment Throne on the last day, surprised that the Lord would say, "depart from Me, I never knew you" sincerely believed they were saved?I figure there will be many shocked to hear those words and many that will realize they are just busted. But again... that really has nothing to do with the points made thus far.


As I have also said, faith/belief and repentance are meaningless without the indwelling Spirit. Anyone can say "I believe", and even believe they are saved, but if they have no root, they cannot be in Christ.Sure... but then you say folks are indwelled with the Spirit while even still reprobate. So that doesn't work well with Scripture as I have pointed out. And you have still offered any passage that makes this case and I've offered passages that show it totally contrary. So at this time... we speak the same language but ain't even close to meaning the same thing. ;)


The passage does NOT say they had no deep root, it says "they have NO root." You may not want to understand the meaning of "the root", but the only root I know of that can give spiritual life is the Lord. Jesus tells us that He is the Root.

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Christ also says that not only must we abide in Him, but He must also abide in us, and without this abiding (ROOT) we cannot bear fruit.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

False prophets come among us pretending to belong, but they are wolves ready to devour the unwary. We will know them by their fruit, that fruit which we cannot bear unless we abide in Him, and He in us.

Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit..
Mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Christ tells us that this false Christ' and false prophets are so convincing that if it were possible they would deceive the very elect of God.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These deceitful liars transform themselves into the apostles of Christ, and Satan himself is transformed into an angel (messenger) of light, and his ministers also are transformed as ministers of righteousness.

2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Then there are also the false brothers who sneak in, trying to bring the elect back into bondage. This passage sounds a lot like the passage in 2Pe 2, those who deny the Lord that bought them.

Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Ga 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Antichrists among us! Who go out from the church, proving themselves never to have belonged.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

RWAnd once again here is where we have a problem. You are jumping all over the place trying to tie passages in to make your point and yet none of them really have anything at all to do with these parables. The focus here is not on "the root" but it is on the SEED and the SOIL. You are trying to make this into something Jesus did not intend in the parable. Goodness... if we did this with every word in the Bible... well, we would truly have some goofy doctrine and there are many goofy doctrines out there to testify to that truth.

Again, it bears repeating, this is not about a root but about the seed and the soil. The root is simply a symptom of the soil. That is why it is but mentioned in the one example and not in the others. In trying to make the "root" an issue here and something being mysteriously said... you are totally wiping out the whole point of the parable which had absolutely nothing to do with the root.

RogerW
Jun 1st 2007, 01:38 AM
Paul nor the other Apostle's were writing the unbelievers... be they in the church or elsewhere. They were writing to the church for edification, instruction, and even chastising them when needed. So this idea that they wrote to the "unbelievers" when dealing with passages outside of our doctrinal comfort zones... I personally don't take that road nor do I argue against it. It makes no sense and doesn't stand to reason and there isn't any serious Bible scholar that would go that route for that very reason. No slam intended... it just doesn't work although I understand why folks pull that card out at times.

I figure there will be many shocked to hear those words and many that will realize they are just busted. But again... that really has nothing to do with the points made thus far.

The Bible is written to the ekklesia; called out ones. This is us (believers) we are the Church. As you have said God has given us His Written Word for many reasons, and one reason is to warn us that there are many unbelivers among us. The Bible is not written to unbelievers, I have never said it was, but, whether we want to admit it or not the Bible is crystal clear that many are among believers, and reading OUR Bible, God's Word to believers, who will be cast into the lake of fire on the last day.



Sure... but then you say folks are indwelled with the Spirit while even still reprobate. So that doesn't work well with Scripture as I have pointed out. And you have still offered any passage that makes this case and I've offered passages that show it totally contrary. So at this time... we speak the same language but ain't even close to meaning the same thing.

You'll have to show me exactly where I have ever said that reprobates are indwelt with the Holy Spirit? That would be illogical? For the very fact that the reprobate is indwelt by the HS shows he/she is no longer a reprobate.



And once again here is where we have a problem. You are jumping all over the place trying to tie passages in to make your point and yet none of them really have anything at all to do with these parables. The focus here is not on "the root" but it is on the SEED and the SOIL. You are trying to make this into something Jesus did not intend in the parable. Goodness... if we did this with every word in the Bible... well, we would truly have some goofy doctrine and there are many goofy doctrines out there to testify to that truth.

Again, it bears repeating, this is not about a root but about the seed and the soil. The root is simply a symptom of the soil. That is why it is but mentioned in the one example and not in the others. In trying to make the "root" an issue here and something being mysteriously said... you are totally wiping out the whole point of the parable which had absolutely nothing to do with the root.

What I have done is to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. It does not surprise me in the least that you cannot accept that Christ is the ROOT, even though I have given many verses to prove this. To admit that the seed could not endure without the root (Christ) would eliminate the doctrine that believers, kept by Christ cannot lose their salvation. I cannot see how you can say "the root is simply a sympton of the soil", and not see what the soil represents.

The seed is the Word of God, and it is sown in various soils, which symbolizes different people. One person hears the Word, but does not understand, had not been given spiritual ears to hear, so, what was sown in his heart the devil takes away. Another person hears the Word, but the Word was sown in a heart of stone (stony places), he appears to believe for a time, but his so-called belief could not give him The ROOT, which is Christ, so he could not endure trials and tribulation and fell away. Another hears the Word among thorns; he was still allured by the things of the world, so the deceitfulness of riches choke the Word, and he is never fruitful. Finally the last one hears the Word with a prepared heart (good ground), since the HS had supernaturally drawn him to the Word, he was given ears to hear, and faith to believe, and therefore brings forth much fruit.

The root is not something mysterious, it is central in understanding the parable. But, as I have already said, to accept the truth of the many verses I have given you to prove the biblical doctrine of eternal security, you would have to receive that Christ is the ROOT, and accept that Christ keeps His promise to give ETERNAL = FOREVER LIFE to all who belong to Him.

RW

ProjectPeter
Jun 1st 2007, 04:25 PM
The Bible is written to the ekklesia; called out ones. This is us (believers) we are the Church. As you have said God has given us His Written Word for many reasons, and one reason is to warn us that there are many unbelivers among us. The Bible is not written to unbelievers, I have never said it was, but, whether we want to admit it or not the Bible is crystal clear that many are among believers, and reading OUR Bible, God's Word to believers, who will be cast into the lake of fire on the last day.



You'll have to show me exactly where I have ever said that reprobates are indwelt with the Holy Spirit? That would be illogical? For the very fact that the reprobate is indwelt by the HS shows he/she is no longer a reprobate.



What I have done is to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. It does not surprise me in the least that you cannot accept that Christ is the ROOT, even though I have given many verses to prove this. To admit that the seed could not endure without the root (Christ) would eliminate the doctrine that believers, kept by Christ cannot lose their salvation. I cannot see how you can say "the root is simply a sympton of the soil", and not see what the soil represents.

The seed is the Word of God, and it is sown in various soils, which symbolizes different people. One person hears the Word, but does not understand, had not been given spiritual ears to hear, so, what was sown in his heart the devil takes away. Another person hears the Word, but the Word was sown in a heart of stone (stony places), he appears to believe for a time, but his so-called belief could not give him The ROOT, which is Christ, so he could not endure trials and tribulation and fell away. Another hears the Word among thorns; he was still allured by the things of the world, so the deceitfulness of riches choke the Word, and he is never fruitful. Finally the last one hears the Word with a prepared heart (good ground), since the HS had supernaturally drawn him to the Word, he was given ears to hear, and faith to believe, and therefore brings forth much fruit.

The root is not something mysterious, it is central in understanding the parable. But, as I have already said, to accept the truth of the many verses I have given you to prove the biblical doctrine of eternal security, you would have to receive that Christ is the ROOT, and accept that Christ keeps His promise to give ETERNAL = FOREVER LIFE to all who belong to Him.

RW
It has nothing to do with Christ being the "root." There are passages such as Romans 11 where that is totally applicable. But this passage isn't focusing at all on the root. It is focusing on the Word (seed) and the soil (heart). The root is simply an anology of the plant and a problem that a plant would have in soil filled with stones. You have grabbed onto this root thing and trying to make the parable about the "root" and that isn't at all what Jesus is getting across to folks. It isn't central to understanding the parable because out of all the analogies given... hard path, rocky soil, thorny soil and good soil... the root isn't mentioned but in the one. That is why I made the point of the thorny soil. Roots can go deep there and it isn't a problem with the root that kills that plant. It is the fact that the plant itself gets choked out by the thorns... not a root problem. You are trying to apply different passages in a place where they just don't fit in my opinion. Point being... if the "root" was the central issue then the "root" would have been mentioned in every part of that parable.

RogerW
Jun 1st 2007, 05:58 PM
It has nothing to do with Christ being the "root." There are passages such as Romans 11 where that is totally applicable. But this passage isn't focusing at all on the root. It is focusing on the Word (seed) and the soil (heart). The root is simply an anology of the plant and a problem that a plant would have in soil filled with stones. You have grabbed onto this root thing and trying to make the parable about the "root" and that isn't at all what Jesus is getting across to folks. It isn't central to understanding the parable because out of all the analogies given... hard path, rocky soil, thorny soil and good soil... the root isn't mentioned but in the one. That is why I made the point of the thorny soil. Roots can go deep there and it isn't a problem with the root that kills that plant. It is the fact that the plant itself gets choked out by the thorns... not a root problem. You are trying to apply different passages in a place where they just don't fit in my opinion. Point being... if the "root" was the central issue then the "root" would have been mentioned in every part of that parable.

All of the parables are about the Root; Christ…”the Kingdom of heaven is likened unto”…

Christ speaking in parables is fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah. The parables are about things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. The Lord spoke to Isaiah prophecy that people will hear, but will not understand, and see, but will not perceive, and that people’s hearts, He will make fat (shine, making oily or gross), and their ears, He will make heavy (dull), and He will shut their eyes (they will not see).

Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

What is the mystery hidden, or kept secret from the foundation of the world? That salvation had come to the Gentiles.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So in the parables Christ utters that had been a mystery, that even the Gentiles would come into the Kingdom of God. And yet He tells us that He will very deliberately keep some from hearing, seeing or understanding the Word; the gospel of salvation, and coming into the Kingdom. Knowing what was kept secret, and the reason that Christ speaks in parables, how can the Root not be Christ, and Central to understanding the parable?

Neither did the Jews understand the meaning of the parables, how they speak of the Rock (Christ), and building of the Kingdom of God, and they stumbled at the stumblingstone and rock of offence. Why? Because they sought not by faith, but by the works of the law. Just as many today, who think they can come into the Kingdom based on how many good works they do. The question we need to ask ourselves is, “Am I doing good works to try to enter the Kingdom, or because I think I might lose my salvation, or am I doing good works for the glory of God, and to enjoy Him forever?”

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

RW

ProjectPeter
Jun 2nd 2007, 01:50 AM
All of the parables are about the Root; Christ…”the Kingdom of heaven is likened unto”…

Christ speaking in parables is fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah. The parables are about things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. The Lord spoke to Isaiah prophecy that people will hear, but will not understand, and see, but will not perceive, and that people’s hearts, He will make fat (shine, making oily or gross), and their ears, He will make heavy (dull), and He will shut their eyes (they will not see).

Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

What is the mystery hidden, or kept secret from the foundation of the world? That salvation had come to the Gentiles.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So in the parables Christ utters that had been a mystery, that even the Gentiles would come into the Kingdom of God. And yet He tells us that He will very deliberately keep some from hearing, seeing or understanding the Word; the gospel of salvation, and coming into the Kingdom. Knowing what was kept secret, and the reason that Christ speaks in parables, how can the Root not be Christ, and Central to understanding the parable?

Neither did the Jews understand the meaning of the parables, how they speak of the Rock (Christ), and building of the Kingdom of God, and they stumbled at the stumblingstone and rock of offence. Why? Because they sought not by faith, but by the works of the law. Just as many today, who think they can come into the Kingdom based on how many good works they do. The question we need to ask ourselves is, “Am I doing good works to try to enter the Kingdom, or because I think I might lose my salvation, or am I doing good works for the glory of God, and to enjoy Him forever?”

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

RW
And again Roger.... point is that you are taking that one word and saying that this is the central point of the parable. It isn't at all and we have to be careful not to hyper-spiritualize a word when that word isn't intended for such. You are making more out of the root example than was intended in the parable which held the central point to the word (seed) and the soil (heart if you will).

We can discuss whatever other Scripture you want to toss out now because we are doing nothing here but going round and round and you aren't even really addressing much else in regard to the parable and the points that I made. I'll post some more later... as for me and my house tnite... bedtime! :D

RogerW
Jun 2nd 2007, 03:11 AM
And again Roger.... point is that you are taking that one word and saying that this is the central point of the parable. It isn't at all and we have to be careful not to hyper-spiritualize a word when that word isn't intended for such. You are making more out of the root example than was intended in the parable which held the central point to the word (seed) and the soil (heart if you will).

We can discuss whatever other Scripture you want to toss out now because we are doing nothing here but going round and round and you aren't even really addressing much else in regard to the parable and the points that I made. I'll post some more later... as for me and my house tnite... bedtime! :D

Let me try to approach this in another way. You agree that the seed is the Word of God, and that the soil is the heart where the seed is planted, or not. If you plant a seed into the ground, any ground, then you hope it will grow, and that it develops roots that will supply the seed the necessary nutrients and water to grow into a mature plant. Now we know that if we sow a seed into any type ground and it does not develop roots, then the seed cannot grow because it has no means of getting the nutrients and water which are necessary to sustain life.

So in the parable we have the Word of God that is planted into the hearts of men. But the Word that is suppose to penetrate the heart (just like the root penetrates the soil) cannot because the heart is stone, and unchanged by the Word. So the one hearing the Word, whose heart was hard as stone was NOT penetrated by the Word (had NO root), so even though the one hearing believed for a time the Word had penetrated his heart, the fact remains that his heart was unchanged, and the Word could not grow in his heart, so he never really had the necessary change of heart needed to be saved, so his false security could not endure. The fact that the man hearing with the heart of stone could not endure because the Word never penetrated his heart, because he had no root needed for nourishment, and spiritual growth, so he dies away, not because he lost his salvation, but because he was never saved to begin with. How could he have been saved since the Word sown in his heart could not penetrate (could not take root needed for growth) his heart of stone to convict him of sin, and give him faith to believe?

This is the last I'll say on this matter to you. There comes a point when all has been said, and it must be left to the HS to change a mindset, if it will be changed.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 2nd 2007, 01:50 PM
Let me try to approach this in another way. You agree that the seed is the Word of God, and that the soil is the heart where the seed is planted, or not. If you plant a seed into the ground, any ground, then you hope it will grow, and that it develops roots that will supply the seed the necessary nutrients and water to grow into a mature plant. Now we know that if we sow a seed into any type ground and it does not develop roots, then the seed cannot grow because it has no means of getting the nutrients and water which are necessary to sustain life.

So in the parable we have the Word of God that is planted into the hearts of men. But the Word that is suppose to penetrate the heart (just like the root penetrates the soil) cannot because the heart is stone, and unchanged by the Word. So the one hearing the Word, whose heart was hard as stone was NOT penetrated by the Word (had NO root), so even though the one hearing believed for a time the Word had penetrated his heart, the fact remains that his heart was unchanged, and the Word could not grow in his heart, so he never really had the necessary change of heart needed to be saved, so his false security could not endure. The fact that the man hearing with the heart of stone could not endure because the Word never penetrated his heart, because he had no root needed for nourishment, and spiritual growth, so he dies away, not because he lost his salvation, but because he was never saved to begin with. How could he have been saved since the Word sown in his heart could not penetrate (could not take root needed for growth) his heart of stone to convict him of sin, and give him faith to believe?

This is the last I'll say on this matter to you. There comes a point when all has been said, and it must be left to the HS to change a mindset, if it will be changed.

RW

I know I said I was out of this but I have kept reading anyway. I have a question. How do I know you are saved? I get the feeling that you are implying that these people heard the Word and "thought" they were saved but they were never really saved. You could be one of the seeds that only endure for a time because you have not root and to assume you are in the good soil might be a little boastful. How do we know any different? I don't know your heart just as you don't know another man's heart? I sure don't and I'll tell you that there is only One that does. So if you tell me you are saved then I must believe you and if you are lying you are not lying to me but to God.

I know you are going to come back and say that you will know the tree by the fruit. Right? Sure you know the tree by the fruit! Do you believe that you can't sin after you are "truly" saved? I'm sure you don't. Could those in the parable that "received" the seed but not in good soil be those people that believe but still struggle with sin? And those that "received" the seed in good soil be those that reach the next level in their walk (holiness, sanctification and perfection). I believe that as you start your walk with Christ you don't automatically start out in the good soil. You can start in the good soil but I think it is rare and I don't think they are "more" saved as those who received the Word on the other types (with the exception of the wayside). As you grow in Christ, God will "transplant" you into the good soil. The reason I say this is no one starts to bear fruit right away. They must grow in Christ first!

RogerW
Jun 2nd 2007, 05:16 PM
I know I said I was out of this but I have kept reading anyway. I have a question. How do I know you are saved? I get the feeling that you are implying that these people heard the Word and "thought" they were saved but they were never really saved. You could be one of the seeds that only endure for a time because you have not root and to assume you are in the good soil might be a little boastful. How do we know any different? I don't know your heart just as you don't know another man's heart? I sure don't and I'll tell you that there is only One that does. So if you tell me you are saved then I must believe you and if you are lying you are not lying to me but to God.

I know you are going to come back and say that you will know the tree by the fruit. Right? Sure you know the tree by the fruit! Do you believe that you can't sin after you are "truly" saved? I'm sure you don't. Could those in the parable that "received" the seed but not in good soil be those people that believe but still struggle with sin? And those that "received" the seed in good soil be those that reach the next level in their walk (holiness, sanctification and perfection). I believe that as you start your walk with Christ you don't automatically start out in the good soil. You can start in the good soil but I think it is rare and I don't think they are "more" saved as those who received the Word on the other types (with the exception of the wayside). As you grow in Christ, God will "transplant" you into the good soil. The reason I say this is no one starts to bear fruit right away. They must grow in Christ first!

Hello 2Pe 2:20, glad you decided to join in the discussion again.

My assurance of salvation comes from knowing Who saved me. I once believed my salvation was the result of my coming to Christ, because I believed the gospel message, made a public profession of faith, was baptized, and worked hard to turn away from sin. I too, at one time believed that once I had come into everlasting Kingdom of God, the only way I could remain was through good works, deeds of mercy/love, and always repenting, and asking forgiveness for the sins I daily commit. My problem was that I never felt that what I had done was good enough to keep me in. I worried about committing the sin that would finally cast me forever from the Lord. I asked myself questions like, “if God loves all men, and it is His desire that all men become saved, then why doesn’t His love for them save them?” Since hell exists, and I read that all who are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire on the last day, I began to realize that the love of God isn’t very comforting because many of whom He supposedly loves are condemned. Why would anybody desire to be loved by God if we can find no comfort, peace or joy in the knowledge of His love?

Scripture convinces me that when we are truly in Christ we CAN have comfort, joy, hope, and peace. If we lack these, it is because we do not understand that salvation is of the Lord, and we have not come into the Kingdom through our own will, but through the will of God. And because salvation is ALL the work of Christ, and nothing of us, He too will complete in His own what He begins.

Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Ro 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

People who are not resting in the FINISHED work of the Lord lack assurance of their salvation. One way to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, is to ask ourselves whether we believe the Word when it tells us we can know, and have assurance that we are in Christ. Are we resting in Him, or are we still trying to finish the work we began when we thought salvation came through our own free will, our own good effort?

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablised in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already made perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I PRESS TOWARD THE MARK FOR THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they ARE THE ENEMIES OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, WHO MIND EARTHLY THINGS.)

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
I don’t attempt to examine another’s heart, and no one else can examine my heart. But we are called to examine our own hearts. We can know that we live with Him by the power of God living in us.

2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Since I became saved do I believe I no longer sin? If I do it proves that I am deceiving myself and the truth is not in me. We still live in these bodies of flesh, and struggle against the temptations of our flesh, the world and Satan, and in this life we always will. But I also have great comfort knowing that all of my sins are forgiven, except the sin of blasphemy against the HS (we‘ve already discussed what this sin is).

Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
When you say “those who received the Word on the other types (with the exception of the wayside).” “As you grow in Christ, God will “transplant” you into the good soil” What you are doing is re-wording the parable to fit your opinion of free will. The parable does not say those who received the Word on any but the good ground could “transplant” into good soil.

Scripture says there will be fruit when we abide in Christ and He abides in us. Just because we may not be able to fully explain how we were supernaturally changed when Christ saved us, there will still be evidence of fruit in our lives. We realize we are no longer our own, but now belong to Christ, so the sin we once loved should grieve our hearts and we should find great conviction when we choose to sin from the Spirit dwelling in us. It doesn’t take becoming mature to understand these things, or to desire to know the Lord greater, so you seek Him through His Word and in prayer. And when you have truly become saved, even as a immature Christian you will be filled with the fruits of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:22). So fruit is evident even before we become mature in knowledge and wisdom.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

RW

ProjectPeter
Jun 2nd 2007, 09:47 PM
Let me try to approach this in another way. You agree that the seed is the Word of God, and that the soil is the heart where the seed is planted, or not. If you plant a seed into the ground, any ground, then you hope it will grow, and that it develops roots that will supply the seed the necessary nutrients and water to grow into a mature plant. Now we know that if we sow a seed into any type ground and it does not develop roots, then the seed cannot grow because it has no means of getting the nutrients and water which are necessary to sustain life. And you still missed the example that I gave of the thorny ground. The root was fine. It wasn't a root problem. It was a thorn choking the plant itself problem. It was "cares of the world"... external things. Things on the outside and not a inner problem with this plant. It wasn't the lack of deep rooting that caused this heart to fall away. The root was fine. Make sense now?




So in the parable we have the Word of God that is planted into the hearts of men. But the Word that is suppose to penetrate the heart (just like the root penetrates the soil) cannot because the heart is stone, and unchanged by the Word. So the one hearing the Word, whose heart was hard as stone was NOT penetrated by the Word (had NO root), so even though the one hearing believed for a time the Word had penetrated his heart, the fact remains that his heart was unchanged, and the Word could not grow in his heart, so he never really had the necessary change of heart needed to be saved, so his false security could not endure. The fact that the man hearing with the heart of stone could not endure because the Word never penetrated his heart, because he had no root needed for nourishment, and spiritual growth, so he dies away, not because he lost his salvation, but because he was never saved to begin with. How could he have been saved since the Word sown in his heart could not penetrate (could not take root needed for growth) his heart of stone to convict him of sin, and give him faith to believe? Again, not applicable because you are making it a "root problem" and that isn't the point of the parable. It is for the rocky soil... but that's it.


This is the last I'll say on this matter to you. There comes a point when all has been said, and it must be left to the HS to change a mindset, if it will be changed. alrighty then. Heard this more than once from most every OSAS folk on this board. ;)

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 3rd 2007, 09:51 PM
RW,
We all know that 1 Corinthians is a letter of rebuke. Were those that Paul rebuked "truly saved"?

ProjectPeter,
Yes, I think it is funny that HS is not leading me and you and others that believe you can fall! RW thinks we are not lead by the HS and we could say OSASers are not lead by the HS. For we believe we are right as much as they think they are right. So who is right?????

ProjectPeter
Jun 3rd 2007, 11:39 PM
RW,
We all know that 1 Corinthians is a letter of rebuke. Were those that Paul rebuked "truly saved"?

ProjectPeter,
Yes, I think it is funny that HS is not leading me and you and others that believe you can fall! RW thinks we are not lead by the HS and we could say OSASers are not lead by the HS. For we believe we are right as much as they think they are right. So who is right?????
Thing is 2 Pet... that doesn't get us anywhere in the discussion and folks can banter about back and forth like that all day long. In the end it just produces bent feelings and makes folks look like they haven't a clue what the Bible truly teaches. I know not everyone is going to agree with me and that happens. But patience has to rule the day in most cases. If not then I'm not doing as I should.

Soj
Jun 4th 2007, 12:14 AM
I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.

The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Simple eh! ;)

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 4th 2007, 12:28 AM
Thing is 2 Pet... that doesn't get us anywhere in the discussion and folks can banter about back and forth like that all day long. In the end it just produces bent feelings and makes folks look like they haven't a clue what the Bible truly teaches. I know not everyone is going to agree with me and that happens. But patience has to rule the day in most cases. If not then I'm not doing as I should.

I agree 100% and I try not to play that card because if they say they are saved then who am I to say they are lying. If I see their actions then that is a different story but on this forum we can only take their word.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 4th 2007, 12:52 AM
It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.

The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Simple eh! ;)

SO MUCH FOR THE HARMONY AND INERRANCY OF THE BIBLE!! You have got to be kidding me! If your concept is true where do you draw the line? Someone could take this concept and explain away everything in the Bible. I agree that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that doesn't completely throw out Peter's and others teachings. I want to show you what Paul says:

Gal 1:2
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Before we get started I wanted to show you who the book of Galatians was written to. Notice that it doesn't say to the unbelievers of Galatia.

Gal 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why would Paul write these 3 verses to the CHURCHES of Galatia if they were "eternally secure"? Either they (Christians) couldn't commit these sins anymore or they (Christians) could still commit these sins and this is a warning to them that if they do these things they will not INHERIT the kingdom. Which one is it? If you say that believers can't commit these sins then 1 John is wrong. I forgot I can't use 1 John!! Sorry.

RogerW
Jun 4th 2007, 02:13 AM
RW,
We all know that 1 Corinthians is a letter of rebuke. Were those that Paul rebuked "truly saved"?

ProjectPeter,
Yes, I think it is funny that HS is not leading me and you and others that believe you can fall! RW thinks we are not lead by the HS and we could say OSASers are not lead by the HS. For we believe we are right as much as they think they are right. So who is right?????

I have never implied or stated that those who think believers can lose their salvation are not led by the HS. To say this would be an attempt to read another's heart because if the HS is not present to guide the believer then very obviously they are not saved.

The reason that I believe some do not understand we are eternally saved when we are truly in Christ is because it is what they have been taught, in some instances their whole lives. Our theology is what we have been taught. Those who have broken away from the free will mindset, and begin to study Scripture without the preconcieved opinion of free will, can, and have come to understand the truth of eternal security. But I have yet to find a believer who has accepted the Sovereignty of God in salvation who has departed from eternal security to embrace the free will doctine, teaching we can lose what God proclaims is ETERNAL!

Paul himself taught in Corinth for a year and a half (Acts 18:1,11). After he left this very young, and immature church false teachers came in with false doctrine and unbiblical practices. The church begin an internal struggle and the church became divided over issues such as gifts. There were questions raised about marriage, and brother going against brother over matters of law. Some doubted the resurrection, and the sacraments were abused. Some were proud and boastful over their learning, and became very careless in their conduct, and purity of doctrine began to decline. This letter from Paul attempts to deal with these issues as well as many others. So, were those in the church at Corinth truly saved? Yes, some of them were, and they heeded the admonishments, and encouragments from Paul.

You will notice in vs 2 Paul writes, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." In other words to those set apart from all eternity to grace and glory and justified by the blood and righteousness of Christ (He 10:10-14). Not only were they chosen and justified, but they are "called to be saints." They had been called by His HS and by His Word to repentance toward God and imputed with the faith of Christ. This letter is intended for believers in all places who call upon the name of the Lord.

Since many of them fell into various sins, does this then mean that those whom Paul calls "brethren" fell away, lost their salvation? Paul didn't think so. In 15:58 Paul says, "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."

I finish answering your question with 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Since Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit assures us that God has given those who were in Christ in the church in Corinth VICTORY through our Lord Jesus Christ, am I to believe God, Who gives me assurance, or you, who says God does not really eternally save those He has purchased with His blood, that we can commit sin and be lost?

RW

RogerW
Jun 4th 2007, 02:31 AM
SO MUCH FOR THE HARMONY AND INERRANCY OF THE BIBLE!! You have got to be kidding me! If your concept is true where do you draw the line? Someone could take this concept and explain away everything in the Bible. I agree that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that doesn't completely throw out Peter's and others teachings. I want to show you what Paul says:

Gal 1:2
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Before we get started I wanted to show you who the book of Galatians was written to. Notice that it doesn't say to the unbelievers of Galatia.

Gal 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why would Paul write these 3 verses to the CHURCHES of Galatia if they were "eternally secure"? Either they (Christians) couldn't commit these sins anymore or they (Christians) could still commit these sins and this is a warning to them that if they do these things they will not INHERIT the kingdom. Which one is it? If you say that believers can't commit these sins then 1 John is wrong. I forgot I can't use 1 John!! Sorry.

Do you understand that the universal churches in time represent the Kingdom, and are made up of those who have come into covenant with Christ. This external covenant includes all those who make up the Eternal Covenant in Christ, but it also has false professors, unbelievers, antichrist', wolves in sheep's clothing, tares etc. These who are among believers can bring much strife and division, and lead many to sinful behavior, and false doctrine. Again and again we find in Scripture warnings to keep ourselves pure, and undefiled by these so-called ministhers of righteousness, and this is why Christ gives these warnings to the churches.

It is not because believers will commit any number of sins and lose their salvation, when we are in Christ all of our sins are forgiven. So how could I sin away my salvation? If we are not warned to be on guard we lose the bond of fellowship with one another. When strife and division, along with false teaching, false doctrine comes into the body, the light that once shined brightly begins to grow dim. Christ tells us that when the church becomes so compromised that it is not longer a true church, then He will remove the candlestick, and take what little light is left, and she will be in darkness. This is not losing our salvation, this is losing the source of True Light in the world. And this hinders the building of the Kingdom. Christ will not come again until the Eternal Kingdom of God is complete.

RW

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 4th 2007, 02:32 AM
RW,
Both ProjectPeter and I have told you that we DO believe in eternal security but only based on 2 Peter 1:3-11.

I want to talk about your opinion now. Not what you think the Bible says or what I think the Bible says. We have discussed this and I don't think either one of us is going to change each others mind. I have the same peace believing that I must continue in the faith as you do believing you have received your goal and no matte what you do it will not change the outcome.

If we were to place odds on the 2 sides of this discussion who do you think would have the best odds. What I'm trying to say is if I live like I can lose it and I can't then I have nothing to lose. I'm a winner either way. If you live like you can't lose it and at the end you find out you could lose it then its too late since we won't find out until we are dead. Who has the most to lose? Only 1 scenario works for you but both scenarios work for me.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 4th 2007, 02:38 AM
RW,
Can you commit any sin and still go to Heaven?

RogerW
Jun 4th 2007, 02:52 AM
RW,
Can you commit any sin and still go to Heaven?

If we can't we're all doomed! Since all my sins are forgiven through Christ I can rest assured that I will receive my eternal reward. Does that permit me to continue in sin, that grace may abound, heaven forbid! If I don't hate the sin I daily comit, acknowledge and turn from them, then I would say I need to examine my heart to see if I am truly in Christ or merely playing Christian.

When we are in Christ not only are we instantaly convicted through the indwelling Spirit, but our sins also grieve us. It should break our hearts when we sin against our blessed Lord, and every sin we comit in the body is against Him. As we grow in grace and become more and more the image of Christ, our sins too should diminish, and if they are not, and we still delight in them, then again we better examine our hearts because there is a very good chance that we have never become saved.

RW

threebigrocks
Jun 4th 2007, 03:04 AM
I know someone who believed with all their heart, actually brought another to Christ, bought them a Bible, and now denies the faith.

There was no doubt that they believed. But now have turned their back, and want nothing to do with the Christian faith.

It is indeed possible to fall, turn your back on Christ once one has known Him.

2 Peter 2


20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

RogerW
Jun 4th 2007, 03:17 AM
I know someone who believed with all their heart, actually brought another to Christ, bought them a Bible, and now denies the faith.

There was no doubt that they believed. But now have turned their back, and want nothing to do with the Christian faith.

It is indeed possible to fall, turn your back on Christ once one has known Him.

2 Peter 2

threebigrocks,

I mean no disrespect, but no one can truly know whether another is saved or not. For man looks at the outward appearence, but only God knows the heart. There are many who will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day in utter amazement when Christ says, "depart from me all you workers of iniquity, I know you not." Remember also that God tells us that false professors will arise, looking very much like believers. Christ tells us that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, and his ministers into ministers of righteousness. We're warned they look and sound so much like true Christians they could almost fool even the elect of God.

RW

Soj
Jun 4th 2007, 10:26 AM
...If your concept is true where do you draw the line?You draw the line at Paul's epistles and use the doctrine he taught to the Churches in Christ as the measuring stick. So if it agrees with Paul you can accept and apply it, but where it disagrees and contradicts Paul you know it is not for you.


...I agree that Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles but that doesn't completely throw out Peter's and others teachings.No we don't throw them out because all scripture is profitable for us, but not all is written to us to apply as doctrine. All scripture has 3 appications, that of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual. We can still learn many spiritual lessons from Peter, James, and John (who are called apostles to the circumcision (Israel) in Galatians 2:7-9) but the doctrine in their writings is for the Jews in a future time period when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24), not the Church.


Gal 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why would Paul write these 3 verses to the CHURCHES of Galatia if they were "eternally secure"? Either they (Christians) couldn't commit these sins anymore or they (Christians) could still commit these sins and this is a warning to them that if they do these things they will not INHERIT the kingdom. Which one is it? If you say that believers can't commit these sins then 1 John is wrong. I forgot I can't use 1 John!! Sorry.You are supposing that the "kingdom of God" in Galatians 5:21 is the same kingdom mentioned in Romans 14:17 which is a spiritual kingdom into which a man is born (John 3) in this age, but you would be wrong. The kingdom of God in Galatians 5:21 is an INHERITANCE and this kingdom is earned by service!

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

This kingdom of God, as the one in Acts 1:3, has to do with the appearance of the Kingdom (note "see" in John 3:3-5) when Christ returns (cf. Luke 19:11-27). It is not the "free gift by the grace of God" which places the believer into the kingdom of Colossians 1:13:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

threebigrocks
Jun 5th 2007, 12:33 AM
threebigrocks,

I mean no disrespect, but no one can truly know whether another is saved or not. For man looks at the outward appearence, but only God knows the heart. There are many who will stand before the Judgment Throne of God on the last day in utter amazement when Christ says, "depart from me all you workers of iniquity, I know you not." Remember also that God tells us that false professors will arise, looking very much like believers. Christ tells us that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, and his ministers into ministers of righteousness. We're warned they look and sound so much like true Christians they could almost fool even the elect of God.

RW

It was the fruit they offered, and roots were set in that person. Who in the world would buy someone a Bible and encourge them in the faith if they didn't believe? This was no disguise, this was no falsehood. This was real.

And now the only real part is that this person isn't rooted in anything but the world, quite deeply. They chose to turn. And as I have said, there was no doubt they were rooted in good soil, producing fruit. The plant itself was corrupted, in despite of the roots.

Thing is, they were lured by what surrounded the plant. Drinking for one. They leaned on their own understanding. They didn't resist and flee, but let another angel of darkness disguised as light lead them astry.

ProjectPeter
Jun 5th 2007, 12:53 AM
It's simple to get around the passage - it wasn't written to the Christian Church, it was written to Hebrews. The doctrines contained in the book of Hebrews are not for the Christian to apply in this day and age!

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, he specifically wrote to the Christian Churches in the books Romans through to Philemon, and that's where our doctrine for today is found, and Paul taught eternal security for the believer. Paul is the only one who told us to consider what he says and the Lord will give us understanding in all things (2 Timothy 2:7) and to study the Bible and rightly divide it (2 Timothy 2:15)...so that's what you have to do to undertsand the text from Hebrews and every other verse from the Gospels, Acts, James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude, and Revelation that contradicts what Paul wrote to the Church.

The above teaching is called "Right Division" and it is best understood in light of the Bible being divided into 7 specific dispensations of time where God deals with mankind in a different way, currently we are living in the time of the Gentiles, or the Church Age, and this is no *new* teaching btw. During the Tribulation period and the Millennial reign of Christ the doctrines found in the Gospels, Hebrews, James, Peter, John, et al will be practised...but until then we follow Paul, who said be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Simple eh! ;)Not that simple at all really. The Pauline only stuff is a doctrine that is convenient for folks who actually can't make some stuff marry together because they think that Paul taught something differently than Christ and the others. REst assured... he didn't. And if he did then it is that which should be discarded and NOT the rest of Scripture. And Paul himself would have told you that.




You draw the line at Paul's epistles and use the doctrine he taught to the Churches in Christ as the measuring stick. So if it agrees with Paul you can accept and apply it, but where it disagrees and contradicts Paul you know it is not for you.Exactly how many gospels do you think there are? And while you are at it... show me exactly where Paul mentions preaching different gospels to different folk? Never had a Pauline only person be able to do that. Perhaps you are the one that can actually show me any such eh?




No we don't throw them out because all scripture is profitable for us, but not all is written to us to apply as doctrine. All scripture has 3 appications, that of historical, doctrinal, and spiritual. We can still learn many spiritual lessons from Peter, James, and John (who are called apostles to the circumcision (Israel) in Galatians 2:7-9) but the doctrine in their writings is for the Jews in a future time period when the times of the gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21:24), not the Church.And I'll ask you to again show me this different gospel?




You are supposing that the "kingdom of God" in Galatians 5:21 is the same kingdom mentioned in Romans 14:17 which is a spiritual kingdom into which a man is born (John 3) in this age, but you would be wrong. The kingdom of God in Galatians 5:21 is an INHERITANCE and this kingdom is earned by service!

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

This kingdom of God, as the one in Acts 1:3, has to do with the appearance of the Kingdom (note "see" in John 3:3-5) when Christ returns (cf. Luke 19:11-27). It is not the "free gift by the grace of God" which places the believer into the kingdom of Colossians 1:13:

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:We'll save the rest of this once you have actually shown where your basic premise has merit. You are calling the two gospel thingy... so let's actually see where this is spoken of. Certainly if it were true... it is mentioned clearly.

RogerW
Jun 5th 2007, 12:53 AM
RW,
Both ProjectPeter and I have told you that we DO believe in eternal security but only based on 2 Peter 1:3-11.

I want to talk about your opinion now. Not what you think the Bible says or what I think the Bible says. We have discussed this and I don't think either one of us is going to change each others mind. I have the same peace believing that I must continue in the faith as you do believing you have received your goal and no matte what you do it will not change the outcome.

We haven't received our goal until we are bodily resurrected on the last day. The difference between your faith and mine, is that mine rests in the finished work of Christ, and yours rests in your own efforts working to keep yourself saved. My faith is not alone, and it is not without works, but I understand that my work of faith is God working in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Ph 2:13). God working in me to will and do of His good pleasure is not ME working to keep myself in Him. I KNOW I am in Him, and I KNOW what He has begun in me He will finish.



If we were to place odds on the 2 sides of this discussion who do you think would have the best odds. What I'm trying to say is if I live like I can lose it and I can't then I have nothing to lose. I'm a winner either way. If you live like you can't lose it and at the end you find out you could lose it then its too late since we won't find out until we are dead. Who has the most to lose? Only 1 scenario works for you but both scenarios work for me.

You're willing to make wagers with your salvation? Best odds? Is that really the way you explain the purpose of good works? What you fail to understand is that many, even the Pharisee's do good works because they think their own good efforts will purchase them the eternal reward. I'm not saying this is why you do good works, but this is very vicarious ground you walk upon. If you think for one moment that you can do anything to merit favor with God, then your very sadly mistaken. Let me leave you with those who thought they were worthy because of all the works they had done in this life, please think on the very somber, and sobering words Christ spoke to them. Many do good works in the name of the Lord, but that is no guarantee they have fully trusted in the Lord working through them.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would guess that these too saw themselves as winners!

RW

ProjectPeter
Jun 5th 2007, 12:54 AM
ANd moving this to Bible Chat because it is long off the Christian Apologetics track and is now a purely doctrinal discussion thread. :)

ElBob
Jun 5th 2007, 01:34 AM
In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.
I can go into more detail in a future post, and give as much Scripture as you need to establish that ONCE a person is saved, he cannot be lost.

But for now please allow me to give you something to think about. Is it possible to be un-born? Un-adopted? Un-justified? Un-sanctified? Un-baptized into the body of Christ?

The answers are obviously, no. Understanding the simplicity of this helps when you must rightly divide the Word.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 5th 2007, 01:58 AM
I can go into more detail in a future post, and give as much Scripture as you need to establish that ONCE a person is saved, he cannot be lost.

But for now please allow me to give you something to think about. Is it possible to be un-born? Un-adopted? Un-justified? Un-sanctified? Un-baptized into the body of Christ?

The answers are obviously, no. Understanding the simplicity of this helps when you must rightly divide the Word.

And I can give you just as many to prove OSAS is not true. Can you quench the Spirit? Sure you can (1Thes 5:19). The Greek for quench:

4570ζβέννυμι, σβέννυμι [sbennumi /sben·noo·mee/] Eight occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1282454#_ftn5) translates as “quench” seven times, and “go out” once. 1 to extinguish, quench. 1a of fire or things on fire. 1a1 to be quenched, to go out. 1b metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle. 1b1 of divine influence.

Now if you have a fire and you quench it do you still have a fire?? I don't think so.:D:D

That's rightly divided!!

RogerW
Jun 5th 2007, 02:42 AM
And I can give you just as many to prove OSAS is not true. Can you quench the Spirit? Sure you can (1Thes 5:19). The Greek for quench:

4570ζβέννυμι, σβέννυμι [sbennumi /sben·noo·mee/] Eight occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1282454#_ftn5) translates as “quench” seven times, and “go out” once. 1 to extinguish, quench. 1a of fire or things on fire. 1a1 to be quenched, to go out. 1b metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle. 1b1 of divine influence.

Now if you have a fire and you quench it do you still have a fire?? I don't think so.:D:D

That's rightly divided!!

When Paul says, "Quench not the Spirit" he doesn't mean the person of the Holy Spirit, Who works effectually as He will (Jo 3:8; 1Co 12:11). Paul is referring to the graces given through the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law (Ga 5:22,23). Paul is speaking of the gifts of the Spirit when they are neglected, and are not used for the good of the whole body and the glory of God. To "quench the Spirit" is to suppress or subdue His graces and gifts.

In context we read Paul's instructions to rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, despise not prophesyings, prove all things, hold fast that which is good, abstain from all appearance of evil as well as "quench not the Spirit." Paul is saying that if we do these things we are not quenching the Spirit, and the God of peace will sanctify [make holy] us wholly, and preserve us blameless unto the coming of the Lord. Finally we read that Christ, Who has called us is faithful and He will also do it.

1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

RW

ElBob
Jun 5th 2007, 03:10 AM
And I can give you just as many to prove OSAS is not true. Can you quench the Spirit? Sure you can (1Thes 5:19). The Greek for quench:

4570ζβέννυμι, σβέννυμι [sbennumi /sben·noo·mee/] Eight occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1282454#_ftn5) translates as “quench” seven times, and “go out” once. 1 to extinguish, quench. 1a of fire or things on fire. 1a1 to be quenched, to go out. 1b metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle. 1b1 of divine influence.

Now if you have a fire and you quench it do you still have a fire?? I don't think so.:D:D

That's rightly divided!!

Sorry, I didn't know we were talking about fire.;)

Hey brother, the instructions in 1 Thes 5 are to the church at Thes. Paul instructed them not to quench the Spirit's work within the assembly. Is still important today, but especially in those days when they had no Bible.

Is not possible for a bornagain believer to kick the Spirit out. Don't know about everybody, but I was bought with a price, I am not my own. I am the property of my Lord, who marked me with His seal and gave me His Spirit as a guarentee, confident that I will occupy the place that He has prepared for me, for I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing (including me:idea:), shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God Bless you brother.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 5th 2007, 03:58 AM
The love of God i believe will always remain for His created ones, and i did say created, not chosen.

I could be wrong, but i believe there are many called and few chosen, cause not all have the stamina to run for the prize and do it with the fervor of an athlete til the end.

This would imply that God choses those that run ahead full throttle, and then He tries His people as silver is tried, and if it stands the test it is indeed a chosen.

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

I have once read about how silver is refined, cause a woman went to the silversmith and asked the guy how he knew the silver was perfect and the man replied "When i see my reflection in it"

Unfortunately i'm beginning to think many more will perish than will actually make it.

Soj
Jun 5th 2007, 09:11 AM
Not that simple at all really. The Pauline only stuff is a doctrine that is convenient for folks who actually can't make some stuff marry together because they think that Paul taught something differently than Christ and the others. REst assured... he didn't. And if he did then it is that which should be discarded and NOT the rest of Scripture. And Paul himself would have told you that.That's a bit of a slap in the face brother, i'll turn the other cheek shall I? It could well be that folks don't believe in the Pauline only stuff for similar reasons, because they don't want to un-marry some of the stuff that they hold so dearly to!


Exactly how many gospels do you think there are? And while you are at it... show me exactly where Paul mentions preaching different gospels to different folk? Never had a Pauline only person be able to do that. Perhaps you are the one that can actually show me any such eh?1. When Christ walked the earth he preached the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Jesus Christ, as a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8), was heralding a literal, visible kingdom, which is promised to Israel; so all understood it, defined it, and all believed it (Acts 1:2-8).

2. Peter preaches WORKS for receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38-39:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Yet that was not the "gospel" of the Grace of God that Peter proclaimed later in Acts 15:11:

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

3. Now Paul "our Apostle" said in Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" and then in Revelation 14:6-7 an angel DOES preach "another gospel":

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

But this angel is not accursed because he is plainly preaching another gospel to a different group of people in a future time period, which is another dispensation from the current one we are in.


And I'll ask you to again show me this different gospel?I just showed you three of 'em ;)


We'll save the rest of this once you have actually shown where your basic premise has merit. You are calling the two gospel thingy... so let's actually see where this is spoken of. Certainly if it were true... it is mentioned clearly.Now you can continue with the rest of your rebuttal, not that you made much effort to rebut in your initial reply. Would you do me the courtesy of quoting some scripture to affirm YOUR belief this time please.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 5th 2007, 11:51 AM
The love of God i believe will always remain for His created ones, and i did say created, not chosen.

I could be wrong, but i believe there are many called and few chosen, cause not all have the stamina to run for the prize and do it with the fervor of an athlete til the end.

This would imply that God choses those that run ahead full throttle, and then He tries His people as silver is tried, and if it stands the test it is indeed a chosen.

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

I have once read about how silver is refined, cause a woman went to the silversmith and asked the guy how he knew the silver was perfect and the man replied "When i see my reflection in it"

Unfortunately i'm beginning to think many more will perish than will actually make it.

I agree that many more will perish than will make it because the wide and narrow path that Jesus spoke of. But this is not due to these people never being saved. It is because of sin, bottomline! Sin separates us from God. Even OSASers believe that you can still sin after being truly saved. I know they say all sins past, present and future are forgiven but I only think that those sins that you have committed up to the point of conversion are forgiven. Sins you haven't committed yet can be forgiven if you confess them.

Think of it this way. In the OT all debts were forgiven every 7 years or 49 years (I can't remember exactly how long it was and I don't have time to look it up right now). The only debts that were forgiven were those that were within the time period (present and past) not future. The future debts would have to be forgiven at a later time but it says all of their debts were forgiven. All only means all up to a certain point.

ProjectPeter
Jun 5th 2007, 12:01 PM
That's a bit of a slap in the face brother, i'll turn the other cheek shall I? Sure... maybe another slap will snap you out of it. ;)


It could well be that folks don't believe in the Pauline only stuff for similar reasons, because they don't want to un-marry some of the stuff that they hold so dearly to!If you think that Paul contradicts the gospel of Christ then again... you are sorely mistaken and you need to prove that. I'll show you where that isn't even close to so... if you are willing to listen.



1. When Christ walked the earth he preached the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Jesus Christ, as a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8), was heralding a literal, visible kingdom, which is promised to Israel; so all understood it, defined it, and all believed it (Acts 1:2-8).

2. Peter preaches WORKS for receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38-39:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Yet that was not the "gospel" of the Grace of God that Peter proclaimed later in Acts 15:11:

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

3. Now Paul "our Apostle" said in Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" and then in Revelation 14:6-7 an angel DOES preach "another gospel":

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

But this angel is not accursed because he is plainly preaching another gospel to a different group of people in a future time period, which is another dispensation from the current one we are in.

I just showed you three of 'em ;)

Now you can continue with the rest of your rebuttal, not that you made much effort to rebut in your initial reply. Would you do me the courtesy of quoting some scripture to affirm YOUR belief this time please.Why certainly... glad you asked!

This is Paul speaking to King Agrippa near the end of his first trip to Rome and just a few years before his death.

Acts 26:19 "Consequently, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.
21 "For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.

This is the gospel that Paul preached just as Jesus, Peter, James, John, etc. To say otherwise is to say that Christ Himself didn't preach a gospel of grace and one who cannot see grace in the message of Christ can't really see the message of Christ. Let me give you an example.

Matthew 18:21 ¶Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a certain king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 "And when he had begun to settle them, there was brought to him one who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 "The slave therefore falling down, prostrated himself before him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will repay you everything.´
27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.


Right here we have the perfect example of grace. It was simply by the grace of this king (representing God in this parable) that he pardoned this servant from a debt that he couldn't pay.

Here is an example of someone that tramples on that grace shown.

Matthew 18:28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.´
29 "So his fellow slave fell down and began to entreat him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.´
30 "He was unwilling however, but went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you entreated me.
33 `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, even as I had mercy on you?´
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

So you bet we are saved by the grace of God and no doubt of it. That is equally why trampling on that grace is a dangerous row to hoe.

Then we have Paul instructing Timothy.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Anything contrary to this is contrary to the gospel that Paul preached. So you bet Paul preached grace and faith. But don't be misled into thinking that Paul preached contrary to Christ and the others. He did not.

Let me tell you why Paul went to Jerusalem to have that meeting with the counsel.

Galatians 2:1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
2 And it was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Paul went to them to simply make sure that he was preaching it rightly. That is what they agreed on in Acts 15. He made his case that the Gentile did not need to follow the Law of Moses and circumcision and the Apostles and elders agreed. But keep in mind that it was never James or Peter that taught one must be circumcised in order to be saved. That came from the Pharisees that were in Jerusalem and in the church.

Acts 15:1 And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

Acts 15:5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

Acts 15:23 and they sent this letter by them, " The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,

That WAS not nor never was the message that the Apostles endorsed nor preached.

And again in Paul's instruction to Timothy.

1 Timothy 6:3 ¶If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing;

So I dare say that if you think Paul taught contrary to Jesus... you are greatly mistaken. Paul made no distinction when speaking to Jew or Gentile. When his message (gospel) was rejected by the Jew then Paul went on to the Gentile with that same message (gospel). The only distinction that Paul made was that he took it first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. His passion to see the Jewish brethren saved was obviously great. I reading of Romans 9-11 should make that very clear.

ElBob
Jun 5th 2007, 04:56 PM
I agree that many more will perish than will make it because the wide and narrow path that Jesus spoke of. But this is not due to these people never being saved. It is because of sin, bottomline! Sin separates us from God. Even OSASers believe that you can still sin after being truly saved. I know they say all sins past, present and future are forgiven but I only think that those sins that you have committed up to the point of conversion are forgiven. Sins you haven't committed yet can be forgiven if you confess them.

Think of it this way. In the OT all debts were forgiven every 7 years or 49 years (I can't remember exactly how long it was and I don't have time to look it up right now). The only debts that were forgiven were those that were within the time period (present and past) not future. The future debts would have to be forgiven at a later time but it says all of their debts were forgiven. All only means all up to a certain point.

It is believed that the Hebrews never experienced a single year of Jubilee, but that had nothing to do with sin anyway. Was the blood of animals that ATONED for their sins, is the blood of Jesus that TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD! Praise the Lord!

The past, present, future thing is tricky. All sins (for us) was future when Jesus died (and when He planned redemption before the foundations of the earth), but the cause of the sin was past, Adam. It is our Adamic sin nature that separates us from God, not the sins we commit. Thank God, Jesus is a friend to sinners! Is not possible NOT to sin. Only Jesus was sinless. If we say we are without sin, then we are liars, and the truth is not in us.

I really think you should look into the fact that not everyone who SAYS they are (or have been) saved is really saved. Rather than accepting their word, take God's Word. Not everyone who SAYS to Him Lord, Lord, shall enter... It really puts to rest a lot of the debate over the loss of salvation. Explains the apostates (tares), also.

If you like Old Testament examples, look at the nation of Israel. Never a more rebellious, sinful generation, but God chose them, as a nation. They are His. Does not mean that individual Jews are saved, but means that once God lays claim, He does not let go. (OSAS!)

Then there is the ark. The water = God's judgment. The ark = Jesus. The pitch = atonement (literally in the Hebrew!). Not one drop of God's judgment reaches God's people who are "in Christ." God said "come into the ark" not go. God closed the door. When God closes a door, no MAN can open... Oh, He told them to go INTO the ark. He did not tell them to drive 8 PEGS on the outside and hang on faithfully to the end.

If salvation were mine, I would lose it daily, but thankfully salvation "is of the LORD." His plan, His work, His grace, His blood, His rules, totally His. Nothing in my hand I bring, only to the cross... I did not have the capacity to save myself and I have not the capacity to keep myself saved. My righteousness is like a filthily rag in God's face. Praise the Lord, He took my sin and gave me His righteousness!

Blessings IN Christ,
ElBob

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 5th 2007, 09:36 PM
Sorry, I didn't know we were talking about fire.;)

Hey brother, the instructions in 1 Thes 5 are to the church at Thes. Paul instructed them not to quench the Spirit's work within the assembly. Is still important today, but especially in those days when they had no Bible.

Is not possible for a bornagain believer to kick the Spirit out. Don't know about everybody, but I was bought with a price, I am not my own. I am the property of my Lord, who marked me with His seal and gave me His Spirit as a guarentee, confident that I will occupy the place that He has prepared for me, for I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing (including me:idea:), shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God Bless you brother.

I like Romans 8:35-39 as well.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice that NONE of these things listed here are sins. None of these things will separate you but sin will.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 5th 2007, 09:55 PM
ElBob,
You speak of apostates as tares. Apostates can't be apostates unless they were in the faith to begin with. An apostate is one who "falls away" from the faith. There is no way to make an apostate into anything else than a believer who was once in the faith and has now departed from it. This brings Paul's verse about finishing the race and keeping the faith into a new light. I believe he knew that one could fall away and he makes warning after warning to the fact.

Soj
Jun 7th 2007, 06:58 AM
So you bet we are saved by the grace of God and no doubt of it. That is equally why trampling on that grace is a dangerous row to hoe.We agree, and not for one second did I say or mean that God's grace is absent from any of the gospel accounts I showed you from scripture.


So I dare say that if you think Paul taught contrary to Jesus... you are greatly mistaken.How dare you! ;)

I know that the gospel that Paul preached, which incidentally he called "my gospel" in Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8, he received by direct revelation from Jesus Christ and not from Peter or any of the other apostles:

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So in that respect, no I do not believe Paul taught contrary to Jesus.:pp

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 01:12 PM
I like Romans 8:35-39 as well.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice that NONE of these things listed here are sins. None of these things will separate you but sin will.

When we attempt to prove our theology using verses out of context we can make Scripture appear to teach whatever we might imagine. You go to Ro 8:35-39 and conclude, “Notice that NONE of these things listed here are sins. None of these things will separate you but sin will.” If you read the whole context of chapter 8 you can easily see the conclusion you’ve drawn is NOT Biblical.

Paul begins in vs. 1 saying there is NOW no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. If there is NOW no condemnation then how could those in Christ commit sin that would separate us from the love of God?

The answer of course is that we cannot!

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul clearly lays out the reason why there is NOW no condemnation; because we are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. If the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are in Christ, and there is therefore NOW NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

When we are led by the Spirit of God, we are sons of God. As sons of God we have not received the spirit of bondage to fear, but the Spirit of adoption, and His Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we ARE children of God, heirs, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Since we are joint-heirs with Christ ALL things work together for our good. How can committing sin, and losing our salvation be for our good? The answer of course is it cannot! All who are in Christ were foreknown by God, therefore He predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son. We have been [past tense] predestinated, called, justified, and glorified. God sees our glorification as something that has already happened. How could God see us as already glorified if we could commit sin and lose our salvation?

The answer of course is we cannot!

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

RW

ProjectPeter
Jun 7th 2007, 01:28 PM
We agree, and not for one second did I say or mean that God's grace is absent from any of the gospel accounts I showed you from scripture.

How dare you! ;)

I know that the gospel that Paul preached, which incidentally he called "my gospel" in Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8, he received by direct revelation from Jesus Christ and not from Peter or any of the other apostles:

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So in that respect, no I do not believe Paul taught contrary to Jesus.:ppPaul's use of "my gospel" does not at all say that any man should follow the gospel of Paul. He simply used the phrase "my gospel" saying "gospel I preach". Paul's preached the gospel of Christ. The gospel of God. There is no "in that sense" really.

Paul's revelation was received by Jesus but Paul confirmed that revelation through the Apostle's. That is exactly why Paul went to Jerusalem to meet with them and had the counsel with the Apostle's and Elders. He wanted to make sure that he wasn't in error and had preached it in vain. They concurred with Paul. His message to the Gentile was that they didn't have to be under the yoke of the Law or circumcision. But they were "saved" in the same way that the Jews were saved... it is simply grace. That is the message that Paul, Peter, James and John etc. preached. To say that Paul preached a message differently is total error and that can't be proved through Scripture. Sure... they had different audiences but the message was the same. grace and faith and not through the works of the Law.

ElBob
Jun 7th 2007, 03:24 PM
I like Romans 8:35-39 as well.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice that NONE of these things listed here are sins. None of these things will separate you but sin will.

Right, what do you think the death of Christ was for? The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. There goes the sin that separated (past) man from God. After salvation, sin is taken care of, now nothing can separate us from the love of God. New creature, new family, no longer Jew or Gentile, but in Christ.

Paul even illustrates using the nation of Israel as the example in Romans 11. Romans 9-11 primarily deals with Israel as a nation. These are great assurance of salvation verses, because even though God has temporarily cut Israel off as a nation and turned to the Gentiles, He has not taken away the ability for individual Jews to be saved.

Also they illustrate God’s faithfulness! Even though Israel denied, disobeyed, and turned from God, rejected Jesus, etc., He never let them go!

Also, they illustrate what Paul wrote in chapter 8, leading up to these verses:
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39)

More than conquerors, a conqueror has to conquer in his own power, using his intellect, his resources. In Christ we are more then conquerors, because He has won the victory for me on the cross! Wow! Praise the Lord!

You guys put too much emphasis on human effort (for salvation). In the flesh, nothing good dwells. The Christian life will be a struggle to overcome temptations and sin, to strive to become more Christ-like, but the reward is not salvation. Salvation is not waiting on the other end for the born again believer, it is a past event and the reason behind his new life and new journey.

How many times were you born in the flesh? Only once. You can’t get un-born. How many times must a person be born again? Only once. Likewise, you can’t be un-born again. Where is the orphanage that houses those that were adopted into Gods family but could not work hard enough to maintain their adoption?

You can believe what you want. At one time I almost considered it a good thing that one could lose their salvation, because I thought that might be a motive to keep a person on the straight and narrow. But that would make God a terrible parent, not to mention twist the Scriptures and pervert the Gospel. “Son, do what I say or I’ll cast you in hell!” I’d never say something like that to one of my sons, and my Heavenly Father is a far better father than me or any other earthly father.

Look at the ark. They had a choice on whether to enter (salvation), but after they entered, God closed the door. They could not fall out nor could they climb out.

Much of the problem with loss of salvation is that it is a thought that was planted (hath God said?) and now it causes people to look at problematic verses and wonder if it pertains to loss of salvation.

Anyway, I can’t convince others, and if I could the devil would just convince them otherwise. The Holy Spirit has to reveal the truth to an individual. Personally, I got past all the elementary principles of Christ, and am in the process of maturing and helping others to do the same.

Oh, I don’t attempt to prove my theology. I have none of my own and don’t borrow the theology of other men. I don’t hold to the doctrines of men and devils. Just the Doctrine (singular) of God. And, I don’t attempt to change other people’s opinions. The purpose of my response it to let seekers and new believers know that salvation in Christ is not an additional burden to lug around, that in Christ we are free from the bondage of sin.

God bless you brother, as you continue your journey.

SeriouslySeeking
Jun 7th 2007, 05:35 PM
Look at the ark. They had a choice on whether to enter (salvation), but after they entered, God closed the door. They could not fall out nor could they climb out.
Thing with this analogy is that the "door" hasn't been closed up yet... we're still "enduring till the end".. we are still in the process of "believing" (not "having once believed"). We are still fighting the good fight of faith.

Nowhere in the bible have I found salvation to be a one time event. There is no prayer of salvation. Only a desire from God for us to live a lifestyle of obedience to Him. Salvation is something we hope for. How do we make our salvation an election sure? Salvation is something we work out in our own life with fear and trembling.

As one who has walked away from the faith I can tell you that salvation is not a one time thing. It's an ongoing relationship The bible doesn't say that on that day God will look at us and say, "Enter, receive your inheritance, for you once said a sinners prayer." Rather He will be turning some away saying to them, "I never knew you". It's all about knowing Him. Which is what I'm trying to do right now in my life.

According to Matthew 25 God separates us according to what we did and didn't do here on earth. So it can't just be about a prayer of salvation.

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 05:59 PM
The love of God i believe will always remain for His created ones, and i did say created, not chosen.

I could be wrong, but i believe there are many called and few chosen, cause not all have the stamina to run for the prize and do it with the fervor of an athlete til the end.

This would imply that God choses those that run ahead full throttle, and then He tries His people as silver is tried, and if it stands the test it is indeed a chosen.

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

I have once read about how silver is refined, cause a woman went to the silversmith and asked the guy how he knew the silver was perfect and the man replied "When i see my reflection in it"

Unfortunately i'm beginning to think many more will perish than will actually make it.

While I certainly understand the sentiment in your words, I do not find Scripture teaching that God chooses based on whether or not we can withstand His testing. Especially when you consider it is God who is sustaining, holding, and keeping us.

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who will stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

God permits trials to come into our lives, not to see if we can withstand the test, and are therefore the chosen. Trials come to strengthen the faith of His chosen, and keep our eyes fixed on the hope set before us.

Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Ro 5:4 And patience, experience, and experience, hope:
Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

God tempts no man to sin. Sin comes from within us through the lust of our flesh, beginning as a sinful thought, followed by the sinful deed, and in the end sin brings forth death.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

God has a reason for allowing trial and affliction into our lives. When faith is tried we know whether or not it is genuine. Our faith is tried in order to strengthen and increase it. The more our faith [dependence upon Christ] is used, the stronger it becomes. Our Lord has promised to redeem us, to keep us, and to intercede for us, and finally to present us to the Father (Ro. 8:34; Jud 24; Jo 6:37-40; Ph 1:6). We are kept through faith, looking to Christ and leaning on Him. We have been saved, we are being saved and our final salvation is ready to be revealed.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious that of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So what does God mean, "many are called, but few are chosen"?

RW

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 06:04 PM
Thing with this analogy is that the "door" hasn't been closed up yet... we're still "enduring till the end".. we are still in the process of "believing" (not "having once believed"). We are still fighting the good fight of faith.

Nowhere in the bible have I found salvation to be a one time event. There is no prayer of salvation. Only a desire from God for us to live a lifestyle of obedience to Him. Salvation is something we hope for. How do we make our salvation an election sure? Salvation is something we work out in our own life with fear and trembling.

As one who has walked away from the faith I can tell you that salvation is not a one time thing. It's an ongoing relationship The bible doesn't say that on that day God will look at us and say, "Enter, receive your inheritance, for you once said a sinners prayer." Rather He will be turning some away saying to them, "I never knew you". It's all about knowing Him. Which is what I'm trying to do right now in my life.

According to Matthew 25 God separates us according to what we did and didn't do here on earth. So it can't just be about a prayer of salvation.

In the end will our salvation be dependent upon what we did or did not do, OR on what He did or did not do in our stead?

RW

SeriouslySeeking
Jun 7th 2007, 06:28 PM
In the end will our salvation be dependent upon what we did or did not do, OR on what He did or did not do in our stead?

RW
My answer to that is both

It is because of what Jesus has done for us that we can now choose to take hold of the power given by him for salvation. (or choose not to)

I love how Beth Moore explains believing. Can't remember the greek/hebrew words she listed for believe but she says it's an "active participle" which means it takes active participation on our part. And whenever you see that word you can place the words 'continue to' in front of it. Because, it takes continued active participation. Not a one time act.

We aren't given the gift of eternal life simply because we once believed. The bible says salvation is given to "them that believe" Not past tense but currently, actively participating in believing God. Salvation is a free gift to them that "believe". (again, ongoing active participation)Believing takes ongoing action on our part.

Jesusinmyheart
Jun 7th 2007, 06:34 PM
RogerW


Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

True, there's no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, but that's the condition, that we walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 07:57 PM
My answer to that is both

It is because of what Jesus has done for us that we can now choose to take hold of the power given by him for salvation. (or choose not to)

I love how Beth Moore explains believing. Can't remember the greek/hebrew words she listed for believe but she says it's an "active participle" which means it takes active participation on our part. And whenever you see that word you can place the words 'continue to' in front of it. Because, it takes continued active participation. Not a one time act.

We aren't given the gift of eternal life simply because we once believed. The bible says salvation is given to "them that believe" Not past tense but currently, actively participating in believing God. Salvation is a free gift to them that "believe". (again, ongoing active participation)Believing takes ongoing action on our part.

I don't know Beth Moore, so I cannot comment on what she believes. But I do know what the Bible has to say about salvation. Yes, you are right, the Bible does say, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved" (Acts 16:31). A truer statement has never been spoken. Now I must ask you, who will believe?

How can a fallen unregenerate man, who is dead in trespasses and sin, which means he has no spiritual life, respond to the gospel in faith to believe? The Bible also tells us, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro 3:10-12).

So we find a dilemma in Scripture. We are commanded to believe, and yet we find that no one can believe, because no one can understand or seek God. What is the answer?

It is helpful when searching for the answer to realize that salvation is NOT the free gift OFFERED, salvation is the free gift GIVEN. What is offered unto all men is the message of the cross, the gospel of salvation, but the message is NOT salvation, it is the means, or the way to salvation. It is through "hearing" that we are imputed with faith to believe. But, who will hear, who can hear? What is the answer?

RW

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 08:06 PM
RogerW

True, there's no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, but that's the condition, that we walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

When we receive Spiritual life do we still continue to struggle against our flesh, and sometimes commit sin? When we do fall into temptation and commit sin, does that mean that the Spirit of God departs from us?

When we are in Christ, then we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, and we have the Lord's blessed assurance that if He has begun a good work in us He will finish it (Php 1:6). And we have the further promise, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee (Heb 13:5). So, how can one who is truly in Christ, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit of Christ not walk after the Spirit? Even the Apostle Paul struggled against the temptation of the flesh and says, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I" (Ro 7:15). Do you believe this meant that Paul no longer walked after the Spirit?

RW

ElBob
Jun 7th 2007, 08:41 PM
Thing with this analogy is that the "door" hasn't been closed up yet... we're still "enduring till the end".. we are still in the process of "believing" (not "having once believed"). We are still fighting the good fight of faith.

Nowhere in the bible have I found salvation to be a one time event. There is no prayer of salvation. Only a desire from God for us to live a lifestyle of obedience to Him. Salvation is something we hope for. How do we make our salvation an election sure? Salvation is something we work out in our own life with fear and trembling.

As one who has walked away from the faith I can tell you that salvation is not a one time thing. It's an ongoing relationship The bible doesn't say that on that day God will look at us and say, "Enter, receive your inheritance, for you once said a sinners prayer." Rather He will be turning some away saying to them, "I never knew you". It's all about knowing Him. Which is what I'm trying to do right now in my life.

According to Matthew 25 God separates us according to what we did and didn't do here on earth. So it can't just be about a prayer of salvation.

I can’t see it as anything but a one time event. A new birth, at least that is what the Bible teaches and what I have experienced. My physical birth was not an on-going event, but a one-time, past event. Now I am growing and maturing physically. Same with my re-birth, March 28, 1993 God welcomed me into the family. Now I am growing and maturing spiritually.

Hope means “joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation.” Can’t beat that for assurance.

We make our calling and election sure by faith in the finished work of Christ (Not what I am doing, but what He has done), also by His Spirit witnessing with my spirit that I am a child of God.

Salvation (justification) is something that Christ worked out for me. God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

My brother walked away from his father and he did not speak or have any contact with him for 14 years, even to his death. At his death, he was still his son. I too have ran from God, and He has never let me go. I’ve been chastised by my Heavenly Father, which is all the more encouraging. Whom he loves, those who are sons (not in the process of becoming sons) He chastens.

I absolutely agree with you about the sinner’s prayer. There are multitudes sitting happily, thinking they are saved because they prayed a prayer. Breaks my heart, but the fault is their own. Just like you said, they obviously have not made the calling and election sure.

Amen, but it is all about HIM knowing us, a personal, intimate relationship with the Lord of lords and King of kings. A relationship which He initiates.

On Matthew 25, there is not enough space here to cover all of it, but note one thing, a goat can NEVER work hard enough to become a sheep. Likewise, we can never work hard enough to earn God’s salvation. That would absolutely destroy grace. God forbid that ever happening.

Bless you my brother as you continue to seek for answers. May the Lord bless you.

ElBob
Jun 7th 2007, 08:48 PM
Thing with this analogy is that the "door" hasn't been closed up yet... we're still "enduring till the end".. we are still in the process of "believing" (not "having once believed"). We are still fighting the good fight of faith.

Nowhere in the bible have I found salvation to be a one time event. There is no prayer of salvation. Only a desire from God for us to live a lifestyle of obedience to Him. Salvation is something we hope for. How do we make our salvation an election sure? Salvation is something we work out in our own life with fear and trembling.

As one who has walked away from the faith I can tell you that salvation is not a one time thing. It's an ongoing relationship The bible doesn't say that on that day God will look at us and say, "Enter, receive your inheritance, for you once said a sinners prayer." Rather He will be turning some away saying to them, "I never knew you". It's all about knowing Him. Which is what I'm trying to do right now in my life.

According to Matthew 25 God separates us according to what we did and didn't do here on earth. So it can't just be about a prayer of salvation.

I am enduring because I saved, not to be saved. That is finished. If I weren't saved it would be imposible to endure. You have to have the Spirit of Christ to be His. When the Spirit comes in, He does not leave. Do you not know that you are not your own, that you were bought with a price? He bought me, now I belong to Him.

No brother, if the ark was about enduring till the end, God would not have said "come into the ark." He would have told Noah to drive 8 pegs on the outside of the ark so they could hold on faithfully till the end.

In Christ, there is NO condemnation.

ElBob
Jun 7th 2007, 08:52 PM
In the end will our salvation be dependent upon what we did or did not do, OR on what He did or did not do in our stead?

RW

I am counting on what He did! Nothing in my hand I bring, only to the cross I cling!

ChrisD
Jun 7th 2007, 09:04 PM
There are 13 pages here and i only read page 1 and 2 and i see wrong answers all the way.

Now let me make it clear, that verse of the bible is talking straightly about the Annointing.

Let say one had an annointing like paul or Moses or the apostles or the healing evagelist of the old or Billy graham or Benny Hinn or Todd bentley. And fall into darkness and sin and into the world.

Then like the Bible says it brings shame to God that one of his one that he used to bring souls into his kingdom has turned and served the devil. Therefor the world shall laugh, saying isnt this God's annointed one O_O? yet his having sex on the street with 10 women ?

HE IS DAMNED cause he have tasted of heavenly gift, shared the powered of the Holy Ghost, and is now basically proclaiming that Jesus is not Lord

Ofcourse his DOOM has arrived. He will surely get deleted or bloted out.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace

Soj
Jun 7th 2007, 09:41 PM
Paul's use of "my gospel" does not at all say that any man should follow the gospel of Paul. He simply used the phrase "my gospel" saying "gospel I preach".It's not as simple as that at all. Why didn't the other apostles and even Christ's himself use that terminology if it only meant as you say "the gospel I preach"? Because you don't rightly divide the scripture you miss out on the blessing of seeing that the gospel Paul preached was indeed uniquely given to him by direct revelation from Christ, which yes he confirmed with the other apostles, but it was his baby!


Paul's revelation was received by Jesus but Paul confirmed that revelation through the Apostle's. That is exactly why Paul went to Jerusalem to meet with them and had the counsel with the Apostle's and Elders. He wanted to make sure that he wasn't in error and had preached it in vain. They concurred with Paul...

That is the message that Paul, Peter, James and John etc. preached. To say that Paul preached a message differently is total error and that can't be proved through Scripture.I showed you clearly from scripture that Peter preached a different message of "good news" in early Acts (2:38) and how Christ preached the "good news" of the physical kingdom of God to Israel. I suggest you back track to my previous post and attempt to refute the scriptures posted there in light of what I said, and please stop reading into my words what you wrongly assume I'm saying.

When the word "gospel" occurs in scripture it doesn't always refer to the same good news! Christians fall into the same trap with the word "baptism" and thinking that it always refers to water baptism, which is similar error.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 7th 2007, 09:47 PM
Right, what do you think the death of Christ was for? The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. There goes the sin that separated (past) man from God. After salvation, sin is taken care of, now nothing can separate us from the love of God. New creature, new family, no longer Jew or Gentile, but in Christ.

Paul even illustrates using the nation of Israel as the example in Romans 11. Romans 9-11 primarily deals with Israel as a nation. These are great assurance of salvation verses, because even though God has temporarily cut Israel off as a nation and turned to the Gentiles, He has not taken away the ability for individual Jews to be saved.

Also they illustrate God’s faithfulness! Even though Israel denied, disobeyed, and turned from God, rejected Jesus, etc., He never let them go!

Also, they illustrate what Paul wrote in chapter 8, leading up to these verses:
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39)

More than conquerors, a conqueror has to conquer in his own power, using his intellect, his resources. In Christ we are more then conquerors, because He has won the victory for me on the cross! Wow! Praise the Lord!

You guys put too much emphasis on human effort (for salvation). In the flesh, nothing good dwells. The Christian life will be a struggle to overcome temptations and sin, to strive to become more Christ-like, but the reward is not salvation. Salvation is not waiting on the other end for the born again believer, it is a past event and the reason behind his new life and new journey.

How many times were you born in the flesh? Only once. You can’t get un-born. How many times must a person be born again? Only once. Likewise, you can’t be un-born again. Where is the orphanage that houses those that were adopted into Gods family but could not work hard enough to maintain their adoption?

You can believe what you want. At one time I almost considered it a good thing that one could lose their salvation, because I thought that might be a motive to keep a person on the straight and narrow. But that would make God a terrible parent, not to mention twist the Scriptures and pervert the Gospel. “Son, do what I say or I’ll cast you in hell!” I’d never say something like that to one of my sons, and my Heavenly Father is a far better father than me or any other earthly father.

Look at the ark. They had a choice on whether to enter (salvation), but after they entered, God closed the door. They could not fall out nor could they climb out.

Much of the problem with loss of salvation is that it is a thought that was planted (hath God said?) and now it causes people to look at problematic verses and wonder if it pertains to loss of salvation.

Anyway, I can’t convince others, and if I could the devil would just convince them otherwise. The Holy Spirit has to reveal the truth to an individual. Personally, I got past all the elementary principles of Christ, and am in the process of maturing and helping others to do the same.

Oh, I don’t attempt to prove my theology. I have none of my own and don’t borrow the theology of other men. I don’t hold to the doctrines of men and devils. Just the Doctrine (singular) of God. And, I don’t attempt to change other people’s opinions. The purpose of my response it to let seekers and new believers know that salvation in Christ is not an additional burden to lug around, that in Christ we are free from the bondage of sin.

God bless you brother, as you continue your journey.

Why do you think we put too much on human effort? I have not recieved the end of my faith. The salvation of my soul! How can the end of my faith be the moment I first believed? It can't!

I find it funny that you think I am not lead by the Spirit because I have a different belief. You also say that I am not mature in Christ because of this belief. What makes you so sure I am wrong? You could be wrong as much as me! What you are saying is for me to keep praying and seeking and God will show me your way. I can say the same thing to you. You need to keep praying and seeking and God will show you the error of your ways. Does this get us anywhere? But don't imply that I'm any less in the faith than you!

Thing is I know many people that were very sincere and confessed and believed that Jesus is Lord and have fallen from the faith. There is no way of that any person on this planet could EVER convince me that they were not saved! So I know for a fact that people fall from the faith.

2 Peter 1:5-9
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

What does Peter tell US (NOT THE HS) to do? This is a human effort Peter is talking about! If the end of our faith is the salvation for our souls then why would Peter tell us to add to our faith? It all seems worthless to do these things if it has no bearing on my faith. But Peter tells us it does have bearing on our faith! Lastly, notice that Peter refers to those who have forgotten were cleansed from their past sins. NOT PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE! JUST PAST!

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 7th 2007, 09:49 PM
My answer to that is both

It is because of what Jesus has done for us that we can now choose to take hold of the power given by him for salvation. (or choose not to)

I love how Beth Moore explains believing. Can't remember the greek/hebrew words she listed for believe but she says it's an "active participle" which means it takes active participation on our part. And whenever you see that word you can place the words 'continue to' in front of it. Because, it takes continued active participation. Not a one time act.

We aren't given the gift of eternal life simply because we once believed. The bible says salvation is given to "them that believe" Not past tense but currently, actively participating in believing God. Salvation is a free gift to them that "believe". (again, ongoing active participation)Believing takes ongoing action on our part.


Good post!!:pp:pp

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 7th 2007, 09:56 PM
I can’t see it as anything but a one time event. A new birth, at least that is what the Bible teaches and what I have experienced. My physical birth was not an on-going event, but a one-time, past event. Now I am growing and maturing physically. Same with my re-birth, March 28, 1993 God welcomed me into the family. Now I am growing and maturing spiritually.

Hope means “joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation.” Can’t beat that for assurance.

We make our calling and election sure by faith in the finished work of Christ (Not what I am doing, but what He has done), also by His Spirit witnessing with my spirit that I am a child of God.

Salvation (justification) is something that Christ worked out for me. God has not given me a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

My brother walked away from his father and he did not speak or have any contact with him for 14 years, even to his death. At his death, he was still his son. I too have ran from God, and He has never let me go. I’ve been chastised by my Heavenly Father, which is all the more encouraging. Whom he loves, those who are sons (not in the process of becoming sons) He chastens.

I absolutely agree with you about the sinner’s prayer. There are multitudes sitting happily, thinking they are saved because they prayed a prayer. Breaks my heart, but the fault is their own. Just like you said, they obviously have not made the calling and election sure.

Amen, but it is all about HIM knowing us, a personal, intimate relationship with the Lord of lords and King of kings. A relationship which He initiates.

On Matthew 25, there is not enough space here to cover all of it, but note one thing, a goat can NEVER work hard enough to become a sheep. Likewise, we can never work hard enough to earn God’s salvation. That would absolutely destroy grace. God forbid that ever happening.

Bless you my brother as you continue to seek for answers. May the Lord bless you.

And the Bible says you can't HOPE for something you have already received!
Romans 8:24 (New International Version)

24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

So you can't hope for salvation if you already have it! Sorry.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 7th 2007, 10:00 PM
I am enduring because I saved, not to be saved. That is finished. If I weren't saved it would be imposible to endure. You have to have the Spirit of Christ to be His. When the Spirit comes in, He does not leave. Do you not know that you are not your own, that you were bought with a price? He bought me, now I belong to Him.

No brother, if the ark was about enduring till the end, God would not have said "come into the ark." He would have told Noah to drive 8 pegs on the outside of the ark so they could hold on faithfully till the end.

In Christ, there is NO condemnation.


How would Noah received their salvation if he (Noah) didn't build the ark? God didn't miracle a ark down from Heaven for Noah. He told him to build an ark! He had to do something to be saved!

ElBob
Jun 7th 2007, 11:42 PM
How would Noah received their salvation if he (Noah) didn't build the ark? God didn't miracle a ark down from Heaven for Noah. He told him to build an ark! He had to do something to be saved!

Brother, all they had to do was enter in!

The ark was truly a miracle of God, even by today's standards, built precisely to God’s standards (sinlessness). Jesus is not a creation, but the Creator. The point is not how the ark came into existence, but what it represented. Seems like a lot of folks are trying to create their own ark of salvation, but God rejects all human efforts and human righteousness. Is an abomination.

I think I saw it in a earlier post, where the brother was quoting from Eph 2 that before salvation, all are DEAD in trespasses and sin. Dead men can't save themselves, they need a Saviour. When I could not go to Him (I was dead), He came to me! I am not my Saviour, Jesus is my Saviour. He savED me, now I belong to Him. I have been placed into Him. The only way I can be lost is for Him to fail, and that can't happen!

RogerW
Jun 7th 2007, 11:56 PM
Brother, all they had to do was enter in!

The ark was truly a miracle of God, even by today's standards, built precisely to God’s standards (sinlessness). Jesus is not a creation, but the Creator. The point is not how the ark came into existence, but what it represented. Seems like a lot of folks are trying to create their own ark of salvation, but God rejects all human efforts and human righteousness. Is an abomination.

I think I saw it in a earlier post, where the brother was quoting from Eph 2 that before salvation, all are DEAD in trespasses and sin. Dead men can't save themselves, they need a Saviour. When I could not go to Him (I was dead), He came to me! I am not my Saviour, Jesus is my Saviour. He savED me, now I belong to Him. I have been placed into Him. The only way I can be lost is for Him to fail, and that can't happen!

Not only when I could not go to Him, but had not desire whatsoever for Him...still He drew me, He came to me, He saved me! What an awesome God we serve...AMEN!

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 8th 2007, 12:10 AM
Brother, all they had to do was enter in!

The ark was truly a miracle of God, even by today's standards, built precisely to God’s standards (sinlessness). Jesus is not a creation, but the Creator. The point is not how the ark came into existence, but what it represented. Seems like a lot of folks are trying to create their own ark of salvation, but God rejects all human efforts and human righteousness. Is an abomination.

I think I saw it in a earlier post, where the brother was quoting from Eph 2 that before salvation, all are DEAD in trespasses and sin. Dead men can't save themselves, they need a Saviour. When I could not go to Him (I was dead), He came to me! I am not my Saviour, Jesus is my Saviour. He savED me, now I belong to Him. I have been placed into Him. The only way I can be lost is for Him to fail, and that can't happen!

Brother,,
Just because people go to hell doesn't mean that God fails. If sin had no place or bearing once you were saved then we wouldn't need nothing but Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's it! We wouldnt' need anything else. You have to ask yourself then why were these things written then if NONE of it has any bearing on my life? Why does Peter tell us to add to our faith? Why does Paul tell us to put on the whole armor of God? Why does Ezekiel say that if the righteous man turns from his righteousness then ALL of the righteous things he has done will not be remembered and he will die? Why was Israel "saved" from bondage and then destroyed in the wilderness? They were God's chosen people but He killed them by the thousands. :hmm:

You can try to spin the story of the ark but IF Noah didn't put ACTION behind his faith then he would have died with everyone else! I don't believe works will ever save me but once I am saved then without ACTION my faith is dead.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 12:19 AM
Why do you think we put too much on human effort? I have not recieved the end of my faith. The salvation of my soul! How can the end of my faith be the moment I first believed? It can't!

You are still alive. Your soul is still in you, but if you have placed your faith in Christ, then your soul is saved, sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Cor. 1:22). Paul said, absent from the body, present with the Lord. You soul is not yet absent for your body.

I find it funny that you think I am not lead by the Spirit because I have a different belief. You also say that I am not mature in Christ because of this belief. What makes you so sure I am wrong? You could be wrong as much as me! What you are saying is for me to keep praying and seeking and God will show me your way. I can say the same thing to you. You need to keep praying and seeking and God will show you the error of your ways. Does this get us anywhere? But don't imply that I'm any less in the faith than you!

I am sorry if that is how it came out, really, please forgive me. Some of my best friends in Christ do not believe in eternally security, but that does not interfere with our fellowship. I count them as dear friends and prayer partners. Again, I apologize if I made you feel that way. I do pray for that. There is absolutely no way I want to deceive anyone. I do ask God daily, to correct wrong thinking on my part.

Thing is I know many people that were very sincere and confessed and believed that Jesus is Lord and have fallen from the faith. There is no way of that any person on this planet could EVER convince me that they were not saved! So I know for a fact that people fall from the faith.

Well, I can’t really argue with that, since nothing will convince you. I have know lots of people who confessed to be Christian who weren’t. There leaving manifested that the were not of us. If they had been of us they would have, without doubt, continued, persevered.

2 Peter 1:5-9
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Right, faith without works is dead. Any professed Christian who doesn’t hunger and thirst for the Word and doesn’t desire the things of the Lord, but stop short of thinking they are not saved. Could be they are like the Corinthians, just immature believers, or could be they are not saved. A good place to recommend a spiritual check up, to make their calling and election sure.

What does Peter tell US (NOT THE HS) to do? This is a human effort Peter is talking about! If the end of our faith is the salvation for our souls then why would Peter tell us to add to our faith? It all seems worthless to do these things if it has no bearing on my faith. But Peter tells us it does have bearing on our faith! Lastly, notice that Peter refers to those who have forgotten were cleansed from their past sins. NOT PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE! JUST PAST![/quote]

Because the faith is not just about ME being saved. It is about being about my Father’s business. That requires gifts from God and preparation on my part. The purpose of salvation is not to escape hell. That is just fire insurance, and God ain’t in that business. That is just one of many reasons why salvation is by grace and not works. I’d have a difficult time evangelizing others if all I did was evangelize myself every day.

Self-control for example. Before Jesus saved me I was a fighter. Just as soon fight as eat. After Jesus saved me, that changed with prayer and by the grace and mercy of God. I have been cussed, shot at, stoned, and a host of other assaults all in the service of the Lord. Don’t think I didn’t want to retaliate, but the self-control was there. Not because I am earning my gift of salvation, but because I have already received it.

I think I already said this, but I not trying to change anyone’s thinking. If I could do that then the devil could change it in another direction. I just want people to know that faith in Jesus is not an additional burden they have to lug around. Faith is Christ means freedom from the burden of sin.

I really appreciate your posts very much, and I really do take them to heart. I do listen and I appreciate your efforts and study of out Lord’s Word.

God bless you.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 12:53 AM
[quote=2 Peter 2:20;1285412]

Brother, I appreciate you. You are very well studied.

Just because people go to hell doesn't mean that God fails.
I agree completely.

If sin had no place or bearing once you were saved then we wouldn't need nothing but Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's it! We wouldnt' need anything else. You have to ask yourself then why were these things written then if NONE of it has any bearing on my life?

I don’t question the canon of Scripture. James was the first New Testament book written, faith without works is dead. Amen! I could not agree more. Works is evidence of salvation. “For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created IN CHRIST JESUS for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

Why does Peter tell us to add to our faith?
Assume you are going on a trip to do some kind of job. You need a ticket to fly and I give you that. I say to you, in addition to your ticket bring your tools. The ticket is all you need to get there, but there is work to be done. Add to your ticket things that make you a prosperous worker in the Lord’s army. Faith alone saves you, but there is work to be done.

Why does Paul tell us to put on the whole armor of God?
To resist the devil.

Why does Ezekiel say that if the righteous man turns from his righteousness then ALL of the righteous things he has done will not be remembered and he will die?
Remember any of the good things that Jimmy Swaggart did? Most people do not. All they remember is his sin. It is a pitty, but that is the way it is.

Why was Israel "saved" from bondage and then destroyed in the wilderness? They were God's chosen people but He killed them by the thousands.

For they are not all Israel who are of Israel. (Rom 9:6)


You can try to spin the story of the ark but IF Noah didn't put ACTION behind his faith then he would have died with everyone else! I don't believe works will ever save me but once I am saved then without ACTION my faith is dead.

Your lack of works (action) could be evidence that your faith is dead. I agree.

“By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.” Not my spin, it is the Lord’s spin. Noah operated on faith. He obeyed BECAUSE he was saved.


Love you in Christ.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 01:39 AM
ElBob,
You speak of apostates as tares. Apostates can't be apostates unless they were in the faith to begin with. An apostate is one who "falls away" from the faith. There is no way to make an apostate into anything else than a believer who was once in the faith and has now departed from it. This brings Paul's verse about finishing the race and keeping the faith into a new light. I believe he knew that one could fall away and he makes warning after warning to the fact.

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” You can call them apostates, tares, wolves, bad trees, anti-christs, hypocrites, lost, snakes, white washed tombs, etc., these are just different names for the same “individuals.”

Paul called them hypocrites in 1 Timothy 4:2.Hypocrite means actor. Alec Baldwin played Jimmy Doolittle in the movie Pearl Harbor. Alec wasn’t really Jimmy, but he pretended to be. Those that defect from the faith are identified by the apostle Paul as hypocrites or actors. (1 Timothy 4:2). They are not really believers, but they are pretending to be.

Apostasy has always been common place. “The falling away” in 2 Thes. 2:3 is obviously is a particular time when there will be a large evacuation of pretenders from the professing church. In other words, at the time Paul is referring to, all those in “the church” who are actors or pretenders will exit, stage right!

It really helps to simplify things like this. There are 2 categories of people in the world and in every church: the lost or found, saints or ain’ts. Is good to study the different aspects of the pretenders so we can identify them in the church and protect the weaker brothers and sisters in then Lord, but that is about it.

Maybe you own a tomato farm and separate the good ones from the bad ones. As the owner it behooves you to know why the bad are bad: insects, rodents, blight, drought, etc., so that you can protect the rest of the crop. But at the end of the day the fact is, there are the ones that are good and the ones that are not good.

Blessings in Christ.

DSK
Jun 8th 2007, 01:59 AM
Maybe you own a tomato farm and separate the good ones from the bad ones. As the owner it behooves you to know why the bad are bad: insects, rodents, blight, drought, etc., so that you can protect the rest of the crop. But at the end of the day the fact is, there are the ones that are good and the ones that are not good.


Not a good example

Even if the bad tomatoes are bad, it is not because they are pretending to be tomatoes. They are merely tomatoes that started out good and then became bad.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 02:08 AM
Not a good example

Even if the bad tomatoes are bad, it is not because they are pretending to be tomatoes. They are merely tomatoes that started out good and then became bad.


Point taken. Thanks

ProjectPeter
Jun 8th 2007, 02:25 AM
It's not as simple as that at all. Why didn't the other apostles and even Christ's himself use that terminology if it only meant as you say "the gospel I preach"? Because you don't rightly divide the scripture you miss out on the blessing of seeing that the gospel Paul preached was indeed uniquely given to him by direct revelation from Christ, which yes he confirmed with the other apostles, but it was his baby!No it wasn't "his baby." He didn't just make it up or study it out and if he did... then okay it was "his baby." It was given him by Christ. And it was the same that Christ gave the others. Paul was sent to the Gentile and that was his lot in life and his walk with Christ. By virtue of that he was taught to present the Gentile with the gospel and as the Jews tried to introduce the Law of Moses in the mix... Paul said nah. The Apostles agreed. And you are still tap dancing around this simple fact. If the Apostle's would have told Paul... you are wrong... Paul would have not preached that message further. That is exactly why Paul went to Jerusalem to make sure he wasn't in error. Already posted all the Scripture for that if you really want to see it.




I showed you clearly from scripture that Peter preached a different message of "good news" in early Acts (2:38) and how Christ preached the "good news" of the physical kingdom of God to Israel. I suggest you back track to my previous post and attempt to refute the scriptures posted there in light of what I said, and please stop reading into my words what you wrongly assume I'm saying.I don't have to refute them because I showed you already where Paul preached the exact same thing. Remember that Acts 26 passage? That was my point. Paul preached repent of your sins and do deeds worthy of repentance. You have to deal with that passage. I am fine with the truth that Paul, Peter and Jesus all preached the very same gospel. :rolleyes:




When the word "gospel" occurs in scripture it doesn't always refer to the same good news! Christians fall into the same trap with the word "baptism" and thinking that it always refers to water baptism, which is similar error.Uh... alrighty. Show me then how I "made a similar error." Again.. let me wish you a lot of luck there. You can't do it.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 8th 2007, 02:30 AM
“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” You can call them apostates, tares, wolves, bad trees, anti-christs, hypocrites, lost, snakes, white washed tombs, etc., these are just different names for the same “individuals.”

Paul called them hypocrites in 1 Timothy 4:2.Hypocrite means actor.
Apostasy has always been common place. “The falling away” in 2 Thes. 2:3 is obviously is a particular time when there will be a large evacuation of pretenders from the professing church. In other words, at the time Paul is referring to, all those in “the church” who are actors or pretenders will exit, stage right!

I still say false believers can't fall away. For me to fall away from the faith I would have to be in the faith, at some point. There is nothing to say that they just fell from the church. That is speculation. I base my info on the Greek definition of apostasy.



646ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Heb. 10:26–29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance.


The Bible says that people will depart from the faith. Not the church.

1 Tim 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Here is the Greek for depart:

868ἀφίστημι [aphistemi /af·is·tay·mee/] 15 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn5) translates as “depart” 10 times, “draw away” once, “fall away” once, “refrain” once, “withdraw self” once, and “depart from” once. 1 to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove. 1a to excite to revolt. 2 to stand off, to stand aloof. 2a to go away, to depart from anyone. 2b to desert, withdraw from one. 2c to fall away, become faithless. 2d to shun, flee from. 2e to cease to vex one. 2f to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away. 2g to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from.

Here is the Greek for faith:

4102πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] 244 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1a relating to God. 1a1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ.1b relating to Christ. 1b1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1c the religious beliefs of Christians. 1d belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2a the character of one who can be relied on.

No where is the word church mentioned in the definition of the word faith.

This is the Greek for church:

1577ἐκκλησία [ekklesia /ek·klay·see·ah/] 118 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “church” 115 times, and “assembly” three times. 1 a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. 1a an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. 1b the assembly of the Israelites. 1c any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously. 1d in a Christian sense. 1d1 an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting. 1d2 a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake. 1d3 those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body. 1d4 the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth. 1d5 the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.

SeriouslySeeking
Jun 8th 2007, 02:52 AM
By faith Noah...moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household
suppose Noah had simply said, "God has promised salvation for me and my household" and not taken any sort of action by building the boat? Obviously that would have been disobedience and foolishness. So instead he "prepared a boat for the saving of his household. I think we can all agree it took some active participating on his part.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 03:08 AM
I still say false believers can't fall away. For me to fall away from the faith I would have to be in the faith, at some point. There is nothing to say that they just fell from the church. That is speculation. I base my info on the Greek definition of apostasy.



646ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Heb. 10:26–29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance.


The Bible says that people will depart from the faith. Not the church.

1 Tim 4:1
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Here is the Greek for depart:

868ἀφίστημι [aphistemi /af·is·tay·mee/] 15 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn5) translates as “depart” 10 times, “draw away” once, “fall away” once, “refrain” once, “withdraw self” once, and “depart from” once. 1 to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove. 1a to excite to revolt. 2 to stand off, to stand aloof. 2a to go away, to depart from anyone. 2b to desert, withdraw from one. 2c to fall away, become faithless. 2d to shun, flee from. 2e to cease to vex one. 2f to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away. 2g to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from.

Here is the Greek for faith:

4102πίστις [pistis /pis·tis/] 244 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “faith” 239 times, “assurance” once, “believe + 1537” once, “belief” once, “them that believe” once, and “fidelity” once. 1 conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. 1a relating to God. 1a1 the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ.1b relating to Christ. 1b1 a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. 1c the religious beliefs of Christians. 1d belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. 2 fidelity, faithfulness. 2a the character of one who can be relied on.

No where is the word church mentioned in the definition of the word faith.

This is the Greek for church:


1577ἐκκλησία [ekklesia /ek·klay·see·ah/] 118 occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1285512#_ftn6) translates as “church” 115 times, and “assembly” three times. 1 a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. 1a an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. 1b the assembly of the Israelites. 1c any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously. 1d in a Christian sense. 1d1 an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting. 1d2 a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake. 1d3 those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body. 1d4 the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth. 1d5 the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.


Brother, I have all these Greek references, but I appreciate your work, and you make very good points.

The definitions vary and depend on the references and commentaries you use. They are not inspired, but the Bible is, at least n the original manuscripts.

The reason the word faith is used is because that is what it is. There is no one church that all the apostates will leave, they will leave all churches because they occupy all churches. The faith is a reference to what we refer to as “the church.” Church just means “assembly” and is not used exclusively to define an assembly of Christians. In Act 19:39 it refers to something like a public court.

If church had been used it would have been referring to a particular church. Apostasy occurs in all churches, but there will be a time when there will be a great apostasy from the faith, worldwide.

One of the best verses is 1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”

Their going out made it manifest or clear that they were not Christian to start with. It happens all the time.

You mentioned in a previous post that a sinner’s prayer does not save and I whole heartedly agreed. There are many terms that have crept in that we need to question, like profession of faith. Profession is my word, but we must take God’s Word on a matter. I can say I am saved, but you will know me by my fruits, my works, not my profession.

I really do appreciate your posts. Really. You are a great defender of the faith and of your beliefs. God bless you.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 03:14 AM
suppose Noah had simply said, "God has promised salvation for me and my household" and not taken any sort of action by building the boat? Obviously that would have been disobedience and foolishness. So instead he "prepared a boat for the saving of his household. I think we can all agree it took some active participating on his part.

Right. Because Noah was saved, he obeyed. Just like Abraham, he believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Then Abraham obeyed God by tracking all over the place, except when he went into Egypt and we are still reaping from that one!

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 03:19 AM
Hey guys, by posting the verse about Noah, I am not insinuating that his whole family was spiritually saved, just Noah. God does not have any grandchildren. The actions of Noah indicate he was spiritually saved.

When it says his whole family was saved it is referring to the flood, not necessarily their spiritual salvation.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 03:31 AM
Guys, you are wearing me out. I am going to bed. It is great blessing to me to chat with you.

Listen, I am not downing your belief that salvation can be lost. It is natural to believe that. I don’t condemn it. Like I said earlier, many of my best Christian friends believe as you do.

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.”

Good night and God bless you!

Soj
Jun 8th 2007, 05:27 AM
I don't have to refute them because I showed you already where Paul preached the exact same thing. Remember that Acts 26 passage? That was my point. Paul preached repent of your sins and do deeds worthy of repentance. You have to deal with that passage. I am fine with the truth that Paul, Peter and Jesus all preached the very same gospel. :rolleyes: I have dealt with the Acts 26 passage and concluded that while Paul preached the same message of repentance toward God as Jesus did, he did NOT preach the *good news* of the physical kingdom that Jesus preached to his poeple Israel! Had the Jews accepted him as their Messiah he would had brought the kingdom of heaven down to earth, but they crucified him instead and the kingdom was postponed and the door of salvation was opened to the gentiles, so a new message of *good news* had to be preached concerning his death, burial, and resurrection.

The "gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached to Israel, while many aspects of it were similar to "Paul's gospel" of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, it is NOT the same message!

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


That's just one of many examples found in the scripture where the Christian who doesn't follow 2 Tim 2:15 misses out on discovering the clarity of the truth, which brings me back to my original post conerning the OP's question from Hebrews 6:4-6 - that passage is NOT doctrine for the Christian, it is for the Jew in a future time period when the "blindness in part" of Romans 11:25 ends.

May God bless the sincere reader.

ProjectPeter
Jun 8th 2007, 01:35 PM
I have dealt with the Acts 26 passage and concluded that while Paul preached the same message of repentance toward God as Jesus did, he did NOT preach the *good news* of the physical kingdom that Jesus preached to his poeple Israel! Had the Jews accepted him as their Messiah he would had brought the kingdom of heaven down to earth, but they crucified him instead and the kingdom was postponed and the door of salvation was opened to the gentiles, so a new message of *good news* had to be preached concerning his death, burial, and resurrection.That is such an interesting doctrine especially considering the fact that prophecy from years before made it clear that the doctrine is wrong. Here's where your theory simply falls apart.

Jesus never came to earth to preach something to the Jew alone and then "if" they accepted him then He'd bring it all down here! Here is why Jesus came.

Hebrews 2:7 "THOU HAST MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; THOU HAST CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAST APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF THY HANDS;
8 THOU HAST PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM THY NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING THY PRAISE."
13 And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14 Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.




The "gospel of the kingdom" that Jesus preached to Israel, while many aspects of it were similar to "Paul's gospel" of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, it is NOT the same message!

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the Scripture that Paul was speaking of... the Old Testament. Even the prophets proclaimed the gospel... they just didn't understand it at the time. The New Testament was still in progress and hadn't been penned of yet. He isn't talking about what we call New Testament today.





That's just one of many examples found in the scripture where the Christian who doesn't follow 2 Tim 2:15 misses out on discovering the clarity of the truth, which brings me back to my original post conerning the OP's question from Hebrews 6:4-6 - that passage is NOT doctrine for the Christian, it is for the Jew in a future time period when the "blindness in part" of Romans 11:25 ends.

May God bless the sincere reader.And your premise isn't sound. Hebrews is written for any who call themselves a disciple of Christ.

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 06:03 PM
The moderator may want to move this discussion to a new thread? I am not sure, but I think we need to deal with the subject of justification.

But how can a man be righteous before God? (Job 9:2)

I think we all agree that God only receives the justified, but we seem to disagree about how we are justified. Some believe a person is justified by faith alone, while others believe that justification comes as a result of faith AND human effort.

Do we agree to this point?

The concept of justification by faith alone is so important that three New Testament books explain it to us: Romans (see 1:17), Galatians (see 3:11), and Hebrews (see 10:38).

Let’s start by looking at what justification is: Justification is the act of God whereby He declares the believing sinner righteous in Jesus Christ.

Every word of the definition is import. Justification is an “act” and not a process. If it were a process, then some Christians would be more justified that others. The literal translation of Romans 5:1 is, “Having therefore been once-and-for-all justified by faith, we have peace with God.” Since we are justified by faith, it is an instant and immediate transaction between the believing sinner and God at the moment the sinner believes. If we were justified by works, then it would have to be a gradual process.

Imagine, having 90% your justification worked out and then you die! Ahh!

Also note that justification is an “act of God.” “It is God who justifies.” (Rom. 8:33). It is not the result of man’s quality or his works.God in His grace has put our sins on Christ—and Christ’s righteousness has been put to our account. (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In justification by faith, God “declares” the believing sinner righteous in Jesus. God does not “make” him righteous.

Before the sinner trusts Christ, he is “guilty” before God. But at the moment he trusts Jesus, he is declared “not guilty” and he can never be called guilty again! (Jump in the air, stomp your feet 3 times and shout alleluia!)

Justification is not just “forgiveness” either, because a person could be forgiven and then go out and sin and become guilty. Once you have been “justified by faith” you can never be held guilty before God. (double jeopardy)

Also, Justification is not just a “pardon,” because a pardoned criminal still has a record. When the sinner is justified by faith, his past sins are remembered against him no more, and God no longer puts his sins on record. (Romans 4:1-8).

Then finally, God justifies only “sinners” and not “good people.” Paul says that God only justifies “the ungodly” (Rom. 4:5). The reason most sinners are not justified is because they will not admit they are sinners! And sinners are the only kind of people Jesus Christ can save.

Blessings in Christ!

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 8th 2007, 09:21 PM
ElBob,

Your definition of justification is a good one and this goes along with the Greek.

1347δικαίωσις [dikaiosis /dik·ah·yo·sis/] Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1286194#_ftn6) translates as “justification” twice. 1 the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him. 2 abjuring to be righteous, justification.

The key word is righteous. You and I were declared righteous the moment we believed in Christ which means we were justified. The issue is what Ezekiel says:

Ezekiel 18:24
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

It says his righteousness will not be remembered and he will die. If you combine this with your comments and verses about PAST sins then you will notice that ONLY our past sins were forgiven the moment we believed.

Your quote..."his past sins are remembered against him no more,"

Bible verses...
Romans 3:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=25&version=9&context=verse)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
2 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

We see that Paul and Peter both refer to old and past sins, NOT FUTURE. If you look at 1 John and James then you will see what they say to believers about confessing your sins.

Bible verses...
James 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=5&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
1 John 1:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why would they have us confess our sins (faults) to one another and to God if it had no bearing on our eternal soul? There would be no need for these verses to be written or for us to have to do them if all (past, present, and future) sins are forgiven at the point of belief. It only makes sense when you look at all these verses together that your PAST sins are covered under the Blood of Jesus at the point you first believe (justified) BUT your FUTURE sins are not and that is why you MUST confess them or they will not be forgiven.

Isn't double jeopardy a man made law and not a biblical law?;)

ElBob
Jun 8th 2007, 11:48 PM
ElBob,

Your definition of justification is a good one and this goes along with the Greek. Gracias, hermano!:D
1347δικαίωσις [dikaiosis /dik·ah·yo·sis/] Two occurrences; AV (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1286194#_ftn6) translates as “justification” twice. 1 the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him. 2 abjuring to be righteous, justification.

The key word is righteous. You and I were declared righteous the moment we believed in Christ which means we were justified. The issue is what Ezekiel says:

Ezekiel 18:24
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

It says his righteousness will not be remembered and he will die. If you combine this with your comments and verses about PAST sins then you will notice that ONLY our past sins were forgiven the moment we believed.

Actually, brother, it says “none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered.” His works. It does not say his righteousness will not be remembered, but his good works will be forgoten.


Your quote..."his past sins are remembered against him no more,"
That is only part of my quote. I said: “When the sinner is justified by faith, his past sins are remembered against him no more, and God no longer puts his sins on record. (Romans 4:1-8).

Would be strange if God remembered future sins, before I commit them. That is because they are not recorded. “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” (Rom. 4:8)

After justification, sins are not recorded. Does not mean that they are not dealt with. Justification is not a ticket to sin. Is liberty from the penalty of sin – death. Hence eternal life.

Bible verses...
Romans 3:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=25&version=9&context=verse)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Verse 26: “…to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

2 Peter 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Right. These verses contrast growing, spirit-filled believers to believers that are immature (carnal) or to those that are pretenders. Thus, he goes on to tell them (v.10) to do a spiritual examination to determine if they are true, or just deceiving themselves.


We see that Paul and Peter both refer to old and past sins, NOT FUTURE. If you look at 1 John and James then you will see what they say to believers about confessing your sins.

Bible verses...
James 5:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=5&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

This is not confession to God, brother, and is not really in line with what we are talking about.

1 John 1:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


These are great verses to Christians, just as you say. When a believer sins, he need only confess, not get re-justified. Like Peter in the Gospel of John when Jesus was washing feet. At first Peter said no way! You ain't washing my feet! Then Jesus said, if I do not wash your feet you have no part with Me. Peter said, then wash me all over! (my paraphrase) To which Jesus said, you don’t need a bath, done had that (justification) just need to wash your feet.

The idea is, because we “walk” in a sinful world and we are sinners by nature, then we pick up things in our lives (sin) that needs to be cleaned off, thus 1 John 1:8-9.

Why would they have us confess our sins (faults) to one another and to God if it had no bearing on our eternal soul? There would be no need for these verses to be written or for us to have to do them if all (past, present, and future) sins are forgiven at the point of belief. It only makes sense when you look at all these verses together that your PAST sins are covered under the Blood of Jesus at the point you first believe (justified) BUT your FUTURE sins are not and that is why you MUST confess them or they will not be forgiven.


It has to do with fellowship, not relationship. Our relationship is established with God when we are justified. We then become His children. If believers sin, it affects their fellowship with God, but not their relationship.

Isn't double jeopardy a man made law and not a biblical law?

Right. Man’s law may make a mistake and condemn a man twice, but not God. Past forgiven and future not recorded. We were condemned already, but believers are justified and now therefore there is no condemnation.

Many blessing to you brother. I have enjoyed posting with you more that any I have had in years. I really appreciate you.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 9th 2007, 01:30 AM
ElBob,

I too have enjoyed this very much!

Let's try this...The Devil is known as the accuser of the bretheren.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

OK, If the Satan goes before God and accuses us EVERY time we sin then why would he do this if there was nothing to gain. Satan knows the Word of God as good as or better than us and I'm sure he knows if OSAS is true or not. If he knew that OSAS was true then he would know that it was pointless to accuse us but the Bible says he does accuse us. That would lead me to believe that there has to be a purpose for this. Why accuse us if there was no possible way he could get results? He is smarter than that as much as I hate to say it.

ElBob
Jun 9th 2007, 01:49 AM
ElBob,

I too have enjoyed this very much!

Let's try this...The Devil is known as the accuser of the bretheren.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

OK, If the Satan goes before God and accuses us EVERY time we sin then why would he do this if there was nothing to gain. Satan knows the Word of God as good as or better than us and I'm sure he knows if OSAS is true or not. If he knew that OSAS was true then he would know that it was pointless to accuse us but the Bible says he does accuse us. That would lead me to believe that there has to be a purpose for this. Why accuse us if there was no possible way he could get results? He is smarter than that as much as I hate to say it.

I am sure we will get corrected on this, because when you start talking about Satan and the earth ages and all that, experts pop up from every place with info about the world millions of years ago, etc. Almost like they were eye witnesses. ; )

This explains it as good as I could. Is from a commentary:
“John then heard a hymn of praise uttered by a loud voice in heaven. Announcement was made of the coming demonstration of divine salvation and power with the advent of the millennial kingdom. Satan was characterized as the one who accuses believers before our God day and night. The principle by which he was overcome and cast out of heaven was the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Not only did Christ provide the victory, but also those who were martyred took part in that victory. Those in the heavens were called on to rejoice because of Satan’s defeat, but the earth was warned that the devil was filled with fury, because he knew that his time was short. The devil knew that his time was limited to 1,260 days, the period of the Great Tribulation. By no stretch of the imagination can these prophecies be spread to cover the whole Interadvent Age as some attempt to do.”
I am sure you know this story about Job?

And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? (Job 1:7-9)

Do you feel the story of Job adds light to your question?


Brother 2 Peter, I wanted to PM you, but this forum want permit me to do that.

I just wanted to say that I had been pretty low for a good while, and our wonderful Lord has really used you and this exchange with you to lift me up. I appreciate you more than you know.

“Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.”

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 9th 2007, 02:14 AM
ELBOB,

John 16:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=16&verse=33&version=9&context=verse)
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 14:1-4
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 17:20-26
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 9th 2007, 02:15 AM
ElBob,
Where in East Tenn?

ElBob
Jun 9th 2007, 02:25 AM
ElBob,
Where in East Tenn?

East of Knoxville

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 9th 2007, 02:35 AM
East of Knoxville

My brother lives in Greeneville.

Those verses I posted speak to me in my low points!!!;)

ElBob
Jun 9th 2007, 03:04 AM
My brother lives in Greeneville.

Those verses I posted speak to me in my low points!!!;)

They did to me as well. Thanks for posting them.

We are from Morristown, just west of Greeneville. We are going to the US next month. Looking forward to the visit.

RogerW
Jun 10th 2007, 07:28 PM
ElBob,

I too have enjoyed this very much!

Let's try this...The Devil is known as the accuser of the bretheren.

Revelation 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=12&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

OK, If the Satan goes before God and accuses us EVERY time we sin then why would he do this if there was nothing to gain. Satan knows the Word of God as good as or better than us and I'm sure he knows if OSAS is true or not. If he knew that OSAS was true then he would know that it was pointless to accuse us but the Bible says he does accuse us. That would lead me to believe that there has to be a purpose for this. Why accuse us if there was no possible way he could get results? He is smarter than that as much as I hate to say it.

Since the cross Satan can no longer accuse those in Christ. Rev 12:10 says, "now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." This war that took place in heaven, according to Rev 12 happened when Christ (man-child) was born, and after "caught up unto God, and to his throne."

Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

"Now is come salvation", when did salvation come? Salvation came at the beginning of the NT era, or the beginning of the universal church in time, when Christ went to the cross, and was ressurected from the dead, defeating death and Satan, and ushering in His Kingdom. Since Christ victoriously defeated Satan at the cross and resurrection, then cast him forever out of heaven, Satan can no longer accuse the brethren before God day and night.

RW

Righton
Jun 22nd 2007, 02:37 AM
If you read verse 4 closely, you will notice it says they can NEVER be brought back to repentance. So is this talking about losing salvation? No, because if it was, then no one could ever get saved again.

A Christian can fall and cross the line of God's mercy. Paul said in I Corinthians 9:27, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." This word 'castaway' in the greek is 'adokimos', which means, 'to not pass the test'. Paul was afraid of messing up and not being used by God again. He was not afraid of losing his salvation.

Christians can fall, but not lose salvation. They can fall out of the will of God and into the world with Satan's and his influences.

I have personally known people who crossed God's line of mercy. They chose the world over God, (willfully) and walked away from God. Now they are miserable folks, who will never serve God again.

I don't understand, sold out, how you say they can fall but not lose salvation. What do you think falling is?

Righton
Jun 22nd 2007, 02:47 AM
To be honest, I had forgotten all about this thread! There was some time before someone took it up again, and if I hadn't clicked, "Read all posts begun by Righton" I would not have known it had taken off!

The following is by Roger, whom I originally made this thread for.


That's exactly the point! What are we saved from? If Christ says that ALL of my sins are forgiven from the moment I became saved (and He does) then what sin could I commit that has not already been blotted out through His atoning sacrificial death? NONE!

The only sin, according to Scripture that is unforgivable is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us exactly what this sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is, and it is NOT renouncing your faith, or turning away from Christ and losing your salvation.

And just what would you say renouncing your faith IS, Roger? If you renounce Jesus, turn away from Him, then die in your sins, are you saying you will then be saved?

Righton
Jun 22nd 2007, 02:56 AM
When you examine 2Pe 2:20 in context you find it is a warning for believers to be on guard against false teachers. Peter says in vs 10 they walk after the flesh in lust and uncleanness, they despise dominion or authority, they are presumptuous, self-willed, not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries. There are false preachers and teachers in the Christian church, just as there were false teachers among the Jews. We are warned to mark them and beware of them (Mt. 7:15,16; 2Tim 4:3,4)

These false teachers beguile and lure through the promise of health, happiness, prosperity, and eternal life the gullible and unlearned. The people who are led astray are NOT the elect of God, but they prey upon the ignorant and untaught who have interest in religion, and who are trying under their own strength and power to become righteous before God. By following these false teachers they (NOT THE ELECT) become enslaved to a greater bondage than worldliness, and that is self-righteous worldliness (Mt. 23:15).

These poor fallen souls had temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world through exposure to the gospel and again become intangled and overcome, his condition is worse; for he is hiding in a false refuge (he thinks being in church with the people of God will save him), whereas before he sought mercy. Now he feels secure thinking himself saved, now he is sinning against the light, where before he could plead ignorance. Now, unless the Lord imputes to him saving faith he will be one of those standing at the Judgment Throne of God pleading for mercy, and the Lord will say to him "depart from me, I never knew you."

RW

Very good, Roger. I disagree with you so much of the time, I ought to admit when I agree with you.

But don't forget, there will be some who will think they are saved, as in "Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'I never knew you!'"

Righton
Jun 22nd 2007, 03:03 AM
Let me lay this verse on everyone to ponder.

James 5:19 ¶My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

Here James is saying that if we have a brother (among you Christian folk) who strays from the truth (can't stray from a place you have never been) and if you turn a sinner (no longer a saint) from the error of his way (sinfulness) then you will save his soul from death (this ain't speaking of saving his physical life from dying) and cover a multitude of sins.

So no matter if you are 1,2, or 3... take this serious and share the gospel with them. It is likely something they need to hear.

Very good one, Peter. I like that one too, to say one CAN lose his salvation. The text in both 2 Peter AND Hebrews indicates that, of their own volition, one who turns from the faith like this cannot come back. But it IS possible for one of us who are in Christ to bring this "fallen from salvation" individual back. As the scripture says, "With God, all things are possible."

I am very glad the book of James is in the Bible.

Righton
Jun 22nd 2007, 03:08 AM
If I could show you (eternal security, OSAS, etc.) that you can fall would you just think about it for a minute?

Ah, now I know!

I read "OSAS" on the Arena board, and thought, "HUH?"

Ah... once saved, always saved.

Okay. Now I need to sometime go back to the Arena.

Though it's going to take me all night to get through this thread. I think I need to quit now and come back later.

2 Peter 2:20
Jun 22nd 2007, 03:17 AM
Ah, now I know!

I read "OSAS" on the Arena board, and thought, "HUH?"

Ah... once saved, always saved.

Okay. Now I need to sometime go back to the Arena.

Though it's going to take me all night to get through this thread. I think I need to quit now and come back later.

I forgot about this thread as well...Hurry back so we can continue this discussion.;)

Righton
Jun 24th 2007, 09:22 AM
Perhaps this comes from your perception of certain verses, what you believe they teach. Could these verses you say teach we can lose our salvation possibly be misunderstood as you had misunderstood 2Pe 2:20 and Rev 22:18,19? I find this is always the case for those arguing that one could lose salvation. How do I know this is so? Because if it were not then Christ would be a liar, and I know with blessed assurance that our Lord does not lie. For He tells me that He knows His sheep, and His sheep hear His voice, and He gives unto them eternal life. How can Christ promise "eternal life" if I can reject this so-called eternal life He has given me? Eternal life cannot be called "eternal" if I can commit sin, and lose it. If we could fall away, lose our salvation then Christ would have to say, I give them eternal life unless they reject it. But very clearly He does not! Why? Because we really are eternally secure "WHEN" we are truly in Christ.

RW

What say you of Judas, Roger? For the scripture says that Christ called him. He partook of the heavenly blessings of Jesus Christ. Did he not fall away at some point?

Jesus chose him, did he not?

justsurfing
Jun 24th 2007, 03:10 PM
In the Bible Chat thread someone posted a question on the following:

Hebrews 6:4-6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


This is a quote taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/

It is a good source for quoting scripture when you want to copy and paste a passage, rather than sit and type it out.

From the rules, this seems the appropriate place to put this. If not, could a manager let me know? Looking over the rules, I believe I have found the right place.

Moving on...

I think this passage indicates that yes, someone who has partaken of the spirit of Jesus Christ [the saved, as some say] may fall. There are other passages as well. So I'd like to know, from a strictly Biblical POV, as opposed to an emotional POV...

are there those here who disagree with my thesis, who believe one CANNOT fall from Christ? If so, I'd like to know how you get around this passage.

Thank you.

Hi,

There's no such thing as "getting around a passage" if one is a serious disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. One seeks revelation of truth by the Holy Spirit and does NOT predetermine "outcome". One must be open to know the truth - even if the truth hurts to the death. Because the truth of scripture is going to hurt to the death of self... and one better realize that going in.

The cross is going to crucify self.

And it's going to hurt like hell.

But after the cross, comes the resurrection, and life in the glory.

If a Bible doctrine is true... there will NOT be an "emotional" dependency on it.

The Holy Spirit will illuminate the truth... and resurrection power will be released within a born-again believer by virtue of the Holy Spirit illuminating, vivifying, sanctifying a believer in the fruit and power of the Holy Spirit.

There will be a "lifting up" by the Spirit... not a "dragging down" by the old nature.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom!!

An emotional witness is the witness of the flesh, the carnal mind, the sinful nature... centered in self.

A true witness of the Holy Spirit in one's spirit will produce the fruit, the power, the witness of the Spirit in our spirits... and will positively energize and vitalize our spirits and sanctify our souls.

No one "knows" scripture without the Holy Spirit moving to cause that Truth to come alive within us in the spiritual power of God Almighty enduing us with power from on high.

Emotional attachments to scriptural "images" of God and "God's Love" are works of the flesh that corrupt us and block us from knowing the truth of scripture by the power of God.

I very much appreciated your despite for the works of the flesh and the leanings of our own understandings and the manifestation of selfish, narcissistic, "But then God wouldn't be Love..." the self-centered way man emotionally attaches himself to his own concepts of the Love of God that cater to him, his will, his centrality, and his desire to be incontrol of self, his own soul... and, ultimately, God - our Creator - Himself... by virtue of what man refuses to subject himself to of the Word of God.

Kudos!

Praise the Lord!

No need to "get around" the scripture.

The scripture must have free reign to strike us like a whip. Paul said, "Do you wish me to come in a gentle spirit... or come at you like a whip???"

hee hee

Hey, Jesus was whipped when He went to the cross. And if we are going to go to the cross nad die with Him to the flesh... then let the Word strike us like a whip when we rebel against it.

It would be better to feel the discipline of God's Word that whips us off the wrong path... for the better end result of hte blessings that we shall receive on the right path.

My response to your OP and it's disgust (as is mine) for the emotions of the carnal nature wrapping themselves around false doctrine that is created as a work of the flesh, manifests a work of the flesh, and justifies the works of theflesh... and GLORIFIES MAN!!!... in the flesh.

Kudos!

We have to go back to Hebrews 1,2,3,4... and get in the rhythym of the whole book... to be "in tempo" of the Holy Spirit's rhythym on this scripture.

That's the mistake men make.

They are not in the rhythym of the Spirit... and can't rightly divide the Word... as they pick and scratch here and there.

I'll come back... or start a new thread... and take you through the whole book of Hebrews... and this scripture will be rightly understood by the Spirit by faith.. by the RHYTHYM of the Spirit... immersive subjection to the Spirit that releases real revelation of the truth of God's Word.

But without being baptized by teh Spirit... by COMING UNDER the Spirit of Truth and the Word of God in subjection... no man can interpret scripture... because his flesh is not subjected to death under the waters of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's not what you read... it's how you read it... UNDER or OVER the Spirit of Truth (mind of Christ under vs. carnal mind over)... UNDER or OVER subjection to the Word (mind of Christ under vs. carnal mind over)... it's the "rhythym" of the right Spirit, or the wrong spirit, one is in that determines what one sees and receives by what power with one's heart.

There is no faith OVER GOD.

Faith resides under God.

There can be no wisdom apart from being under subjection... to the Spirit of Truth and the Word of God... BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ through death.

And the more emotionally attached men are to their own worship of self... the more disgusting their emotional arguments... and protests against the truth of God's Word.


Love in Christ,

js

Brotherken
Jun 24th 2007, 03:29 PM
Im confused.. I read we are chosen by God....

I also read that God gives us free will

And I Read that God will have Mercy on who He choses to have mercy on.

Romans 9; 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and pity on whom I will have pity.

16 So then, it is not by the desire or by the attempt of man, but by the mercy of God.

Then I read
"18 So then, at his pleasure he has mercy on a man, and at his pleasure he makes the heart hard.

19 But you will say to me, Why does he still make us responsible? who is able to go against his purpose?

20 But, O man, who are you, to make answer against God? May the thing which is made say to him who made it, Why did you make me so?

So Where does this Leave Free will?

We are chosen, are we not?

God has already decided Who will Be saved....Right? or Wrong?

justsurfing
Jun 24th 2007, 03:51 PM
Im confused.. I read we are chosen by God....

I also read that God gives us free will

And I Read that God will have Mercy on who He choses to have mercy on.

Romans 9; 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and pity on whom I will have pity.

16 So then, it is not by the desire or by the attempt of man, but by the mercy of God.

Then I read
"18 So then, at his pleasure he has mercy on a man, and at his pleasure he makes the heart hard.

19 But you will say to me, Why does he still make us responsible? who is able to go against his purpose?

20 But, O man, who are you, to make answer against God? May the thing which is made say to him who made it, Why did you make me so?

So Where does this Leave Free will?

We are chosen, are we not?

God has already decided Who will Be saved....Right? or Wrong?

Hi,

I'm of the opinion that God has already decided who will be saved.

God grants the elect faith, and a new will born of the Spirit by which they freely choose Christ.

The reprobate are left in the will of the flesh whereby they, in bondage to Satan, reflexively and inescapable "freely" chose to reject Christ.

The relationship between will and decision for Christ is determined by God by granting us the grace to believe and to receive and to choose Jesus Christ - apart from which all men would, by nature and will born of nature in Adam, choose to reject Christ.

in other words, we are not robots in Christ.

We are new creations.

We have the will of the Spirit in our new spiritual wills by grace... and we FREELY choose Christ, imo.

And any other argument is an emotional argument centered in man without recognition of need for grace and the work of the Spirit to choose Christ freely and affirmatively, imo.

I'd say you're right.

We are chosen by grace and saved by grace.

Love in Christ,

js

Brotherken
Jun 24th 2007, 04:07 PM
Thanks Just..... I was hoping you would answer..

Now, I have another Question for you.

If I Have Not Been Chosen,
would I want to be?

I mean to say,.... uhhhhh..

I haven't come to him on my own, have I?

I think satan is trying to tell me I am Not Saved and that i am doing all this on my own and for nothing...

Man, What Is wrong with me?!?!

justsurfing
Jun 24th 2007, 06:26 PM
Thanks Just..... I was hoping you would answer..

Now, I have another Question for you.

If I Have Not Been Chosen,
would I want to be?

I mean to say,.... uhhhhh..

I haven't come to him on my own, have I?

I think satan is trying to tell me I am Not Saved and that i am doing all this on my own and for nothing...

Man, What Is wrong with me?!?!

Hi Trader,

I think there is nothing wrong with you. :)

I think Satan is a liar - and cannot abide in the truth.

:)

Satan always attacks our faith in Jesus Christ. If some Christians (I say wrongly) believe that it is by their wills they were saved... Satan comes along and says, "You're going to lose your salvation because your will isn't going to hold and your heart is going to harden and you are going to fall away! Be afraid! Be very afraid!"... and then tries to move them to serve God out of fear... or to give up because they can't do it in their own strength and so not draw near to God in heart... or be self-righteous and judge others.

Whatever our position, Satan has a lie and an attack for that position. :)

So, he's coming against you with a fear related to the realization salvation was not by our own wills in the flesh. (An attack against Christians of every scriptural positions... just trying to poke at with scare tactics, imo... just like the devil does by nature as a liar.)

OK, so we realize that salvation is not under our own control according to the flesh or the sinful nature. So Satan says, "See! It's not under your control! Because you can't control it - how can you be sure you really have it?!!!!!"

Satan always wants us to focus on ourselves and our own sense of control... because, basically, that's how fear functions... in self related to our own control.

:)

But faith functions in Christ and in the new nature in the Spirit of God related to God's grace.

We have the witness in our spirits that we are the children of God... and Satan can't get to our spirits.

Satan tries to rile up our souls through arrows thrown at our heads... in the flesh.

Satan can't even approach who we are in Christ in the Spirit.

He can only try to speak to, provoke, and get us worked up according to the sinful nature... by interjecting fears, questions, doubts, concerns... anything negative.

But what does the scripture say?

Nothing will ever separate us from the Love of God. Nothing.

So really - no matter how anyone believes they got saved... have they experienced the Love of God on the inside?

Have they ever experienced the reality of being born-again? And Jesus Christ coming to live on the inside of their hearts?

You know, the Spirit coming to make His abode and indwell us on the inside?

Well, if the answer is "Yes"... it really doesn't matter how our souls rock to and fro in the winds of the blows of Satan against the working out of our salvations in our minds, wills, and emotions.

It is finished.

That Love will never leave us. We will never be separated.

So, the scripture says, "I know Him in whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him unto that day."

;)

Either way. (The truth is we are saved by God's grace... but we don't even need to know how we are saved to know that we ARE SAVED... and Jesus is in us... the hope of glory! :) )

And once we have been saved, we need to submit ourselves to the truth that we ARE saved!!! and resist Satan by the Love of God we KNOW we have received!!!

:)

God is faithful and will keep us.

:)

Does that help?

Love in Christ,

js