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hotwheelth
May 15th 2007, 06:47 AM
I was recently reading some bible verses that clearly state that the suns revolves around the earth. Scientest have been wrong all this time, all they had to do was look in the bible. who agrees?
PSALMS 50:1 “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”

Duane Morse
May 15th 2007, 08:23 AM
It's all in the point of view, I guess.

Soj
May 15th 2007, 10:15 AM
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

The sun stood still.
The sun returned.
The Sun shall arise.

Hmmm looks like you could be on to something there hotwheelth, but there's nothing new under the sun lol.

This has been debated for years, but if I read my Bible as it stands is says the sun is in motion not the earth!

Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Kahtar
May 15th 2007, 03:19 PM
Even in this day of science and technology, nearly ALL of us speak of the sun as rising and setting, even though we KNOW that it is the earth rotating, not the sun. If it is such an idiom now, should we expect it to be different in the Word? The Word is God's communication to us, in a method we can comprehend, to a degree.
Sometimes we are guilty of reading more into the Word that what is there. And even more often, we get so caught up in such foolishness that we cannot see what it's really trying to tell us.

Whispering Grace
May 15th 2007, 04:12 PM
Even in this day of science and technology, nearly ALL of us speak of the sun as rising and setting, even though we KNOW that it is the earth rotating, not the sun. If it is such an idiom now, should we expect it to be different in the Word? The Word is God's communication to us, in a method we can comprehend, to a degree.
Sometimes we are guilty of reading more into the Word that what is there. And even more often, we get so caught up in such foolishness that we cannot see what it's really trying to tell us.

Amen.

............

Lighthope
May 15th 2007, 07:19 PM
PSALMS 50:1 [/B][/I]“The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I don't see how that verse says the sun revolves around the Earth. It merely talks about the sun rising and falling, which it does. It rises over the horizon in the morning and falls under the horizon at night.

It was certainly thought the sun revolved around the Earth because the Bible does talk about the Earth being the centre of creation, but the Bible never says the sun is the object that moves around the Earth.

Lighthope

Pearls of Wisdom - I've learned that you cannot make someone love you. All you can do is stalk them and hope they panic and give in.

--== TIGERS' QUEST - http://www.tigersquest.com
--== THE DOCTOR WHO AUDIO DRAMAS - http://www.dwad.net

punk
May 15th 2007, 07:26 PM
Hmmm, I think I see a lot of people using the same sort of reasoning to explain away that a literal reading of the Bible would indicate the Sun revolves around the Earth, as other people do to explain away a literal 6-day creation....:rolleyes:

VerticalReality
May 15th 2007, 07:52 PM
Hmmm, I think I see a lot of people using the same sort of reasoning to explain away that a literal reading of the Bible would indicate the Sun revolves around the Earth, as other people do to explain away a literal 6-day creation....:rolleyes:

Sorry, I don't see it. I think the passage is pretty clear, and it is not talking about the sun revolving around the earth.

Soj
May 15th 2007, 09:06 PM
Even in this day of science and technology, nearly ALL of us speak of the sun as rising and setting, even though we KNOW that it is the earth rotating, not the sun.How do we KNOW the sun isn't rotating arounf the earth? I know we were all taught that in school, but so do the schools teach that everything is here as the result of evolution!


If it is such an idiom now, should we expect it to be different in the Word? The Word is God's communication to us, in a method we can comprehend, to a degree.
Sometimes we are guilty of reading more into the Word that what is there. And even more often, we get so caught up in such foolishness that we cannot see what it's really trying to tell us.The Bible verses I posted are clear that the sun is in motion, not the earth. We talk about the sun rising and setting with the presupposition that the earth is revolving around the sun because of what we have been taught by the *world* not by the word of God.

Kahtar
May 15th 2007, 09:34 PM
How do we KNOW the sun isn't rotating arounf the earth? I know we were all taught that in school, but so do the schools teach that everything is here as the result of evolution!

The Bible verses I posted are clear that the sun is in motion, not the earth. We talk about the sun rising and setting with the presupposition that the earth is revolving around the sun because of what we have been taught by the *world* not by the word of God.Of course you are free to believe whatever you like. I am no scientist, and the Word of God is not a scientific treatise, but God's communication to us about His plans for us, from beginning to end.
We know that scientists can be wrong. We know that they can look at the same evidence that Christians look at and come up with and entirely different hypothesis.
But we do know that the Word of God is correct, even though our understanding of it may not be.

Soj
May 15th 2007, 09:37 PM
Let's also not forget that the earth was created BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis chapter 1, in fact it wasn't until day 4 of creation that God made the sun:

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

It just stands to reason that the earth is the centre of God's creation, for he made it first and then made everthing else around it to sustain the seasons and time clock on the earth, etc.

So why would scientists teach otherwise I wonder? Certainly to teach the earth is the centre of the universe would give credibility to the creation argument, and that would upset many folk, it would also go against the popular thought that there is life on other planets and other "earths" out there that man hasn't discovered, and the Devil doesn't want people to stop believing and hoping in that!

Kahtar
May 15th 2007, 11:05 PM
Let's also not forget that the earth was created BEFORE the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis chapter 1, in fact it wasn't until day 4 of creation that God made the sun:

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

It just stands to reason that the earth is the centre of God's creation, for he made it first and then made everthing else around it to sustain the seasons and time clock on the earth, etc.

So why would scientists teach otherwise I wonder? Certainly to teach the earth is the centre of the universe would give credibility to the creation argument, and that would upset many folk, it would also go against the popular thought that there is life on other planets and other "earths" out there that man hasn't discovered, and the Devil doesn't want people to stop believing and hoping in that!Good points. I would submit though that the earth can be the center of God's creation without necessarily being in the 'geographic' center of it. Nor does the fact that the earth was made before the sun necessitate the sun orbiting the earth.
In line with Einstein's theory of relativity, relative to the earth, the sun does appear to orbit the earth. But that theory can work both ways. In other words, it is just as possible that the sun truly does orbit the earth, but relative to the solar system, it appears that the earth and other planets orbit the sun.
Who knows? And, perhaps more importantly, does it really matter? Makes a good discussion tho.:)

Soj
May 15th 2007, 11:44 PM
Who knows? And, perhaps more importantly, does it really matter? Makes a good discussion tho.:)Yes it does make good discussion, and I thought about whether it really matters and concluded that in one sense no it doesn't because God is in control regardless, but in another sense it does matter because it can turn into a debate on Bible interpretation, and according to 2 Peter 1:20 the scripture is of no private interpretation, so the verses in question about the sun being in motion or not can only be read one way...:cool:

For the record, this is the first time I have discussed this subject and thought about it deeply, and it has prompted me to search the scriptures to see if these things be so and has been really beneficial and a personal blessing.

Kahtar
May 16th 2007, 12:50 AM
For the record, this is the first time I have discussed this subject and thought about it deeply, and it has prompted me to search the scriptures to see if these things be so and has been really beneficial and a personal blessing.;) That's really what it's all about, no?

Duane Morse
May 16th 2007, 03:01 AM
so the verses in question about the sun being in motion or not can only be read one way...:cool:


Actually, and as has been seen, they can be read in several different ways.

They can only be correctly understood one way.

The phrase 'from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.'
is not so much instruction in solar physics as it is one of boundries.
From the beginning to the end, so to speak.

Other things, like the sun standing still or going back along it's course, are clearly references to a subjective point of view, rather than an objective point of view.

Soj
May 16th 2007, 05:13 AM
The phrase 'from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.'
is not so much instruction in solar physics as it is one of boundries.
From the beginning to the end, so to speak.

Other things, like the sun standing still or going back along it's course, are clearly references to a subjective point of view, rather than an objective point of view.
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

So you are saying that the sun didn't stop in the middle of heaven like the verse says?? I take the scripture literally wherever possible and believe that's what the verse is saying. But if the earth moves around the sun surely a literal interpretation of the verse would require it to say "the earth stood still"? Yep it would, but it doesn't, so we are left with the scripture saying the sun is moving.

Duane Morse
May 16th 2007, 05:34 AM
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

So you are saying that the sun didn't stop in the middle of heaven like the verse says?? I take the scripture literally wherever possible and believe that's what the verse is saying. But if the earth moves around the sun surely a literal interpretation of the verse would require it to say "the earth stood still"? Yep it would, but it doesn't, so we are left with the scripture saying the sun is moving.
I am saying that, from the point of view of those on the planet, the sun's motion seemed to have stopped.

It is quite literal from the perspective of those observing the event from the surface of the planet, or at least from the point on the planet that housed the writer.

But, it may not be literal in every sense or from every observers vantage point. An observer in space might have seen something completely different.

TEITZY
May 16th 2007, 06:27 AM
I was recently reading some bible verses that clearly state that the suns revolves around the earth. Scientest have been wrong all this time, all they had to do was look in the bible. who agrees?
PSALMS 50:1 “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”

People must keep in mind the context or genre of a book and the language employed. The writers of the wisdom and poetic books of the OT (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Eccl. & Songs) often employ poetic or figurative language to describe natural phenomena so one must be careful in declaring that such statements are scientific realities, because they may not be.

Cheers
Leigh

Studyin'2Show
May 16th 2007, 11:09 AM
I was recently reading some bible verses that clearly state that the suns revolves around the earth. Scientest have been wrong all this time, all they had to do was look in the bible. who agrees?
PSALMS 50:1 “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”What I think is odd is that this scripture doesn't say anything about the earth not moving. Where does it say that? We need to focus on reading what the word says and not reading into it. If you read Psalm 50 in its entirety, you will see that it has nothing to do with astronomy as some would have you focus on. It has to do with trusting God all day long, all night long, every day, in every circumstance. Let us not get caught up chasing rainbows; and forget that the rainbow is but a symbol of His faithfulness. Take the time to read the whole psalm, and the others that have been quoted. Then come back and we will discuss the 'point'!

Psalm 50
1 The Mighty One, God the LORD,
Has spoken and called the earth
From the rising of the sun to its going down.
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty,
God will shine forth.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent;
A fire shall devour before Him,
And it shall be very tempestuous all around Him.

4 He shall call to the heavens from above,
And to the earth, that He may judge His people:
5 “Gather My saints together to Me,
Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.”
6 Let the heavens declare His righteousness,
For God Himself is Judge. Selah

7 “Hear, O My people, and I will speak,
O Israel, and I will testify against you;
I am God, your God!
8 I will not rebuke you for your sacrifices
Or your burnt offerings,
Which are continually before Me.
9 I will not take a bull from your house,
Nor goats out of your folds.
10 For every beast of the forest is Mine,
And the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know all the birds of the mountains,
And the wild beasts of the field are Mine.

12 “If I were hungry, I would not tell you;
For the world is Mine, and all its fullness.
13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls,
Or drink the blood of goats?
14 Offer to God thanksgiving,
And pay your vows to the Most High.
15 Call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.”

16 But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to declare My statutes,
Or take My covenant in your mouth,
17 Seeing you hate instruction
And cast My words behind you?
18 When you saw a thief, you consented[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2050;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-14687a)] with him,
And have been a partaker with adulterers.
19 You give your mouth to evil,
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you,
And set them in order before your eyes.

22 “Now consider this, you who forget God,
Lest I tear you in pieces,
And there be none to deliver:
23 Whoever offers praise glorifies Me;
And to him who orders his conduct aright
I will show the salvation of God.”

God Bless!

RogerW
May 19th 2007, 11:53 PM
Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

So you are saying that the sun didn't stop in the middle of heaven like the verse says?? I take the scripture literally wherever possible and believe that's what the verse is saying. But if the earth moves around the sun surely a literal interpretation of the verse would require it to say "the earth stood still"? Yep it would, but it doesn't, so we are left with the scripture saying the sun is moving.

We read in Genesis that God set the moon and the sun in the sky to "rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from darkness." To rule means to have dominion, or power, or to govern over. Does this effect your understanding? The sun is given rule, and divides day from night, and "Sun" defines the Sovereign Lord, Who rules the day and night, or over light and darkness. The sun gives light to the earth, just as the Son gives light to mankind. Just something to consider.

Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

RW

macarnett
May 20th 2007, 03:38 PM
Martin Luther, for example, took Copernicus to task, because the Bible says that the Sun moves and the Earth does not.

Luther was a Biblical literalist.

And that was the problem. If you understand that it wasn't meant to be taken literally, then (as someone else here said) then it becomes clear that it's just a figure of speech.

punk
May 20th 2007, 04:24 PM
Martin Luther, for example, took Copernicus to task, because the Bible says that the Sun moves and the Earth does not.

Luther was a Biblical literalist.

And that was the problem. If you understand that it wasn't meant to be taken literally, then (as someone else here said) then it becomes clear that it's just a figure of speech.

To reiterate though, this then raises the specter of what else was just intended to be poetic rather than literal.

If science forced literalists post Luther to acknowledge that the Bible couldn't be saying the Sun goes around the Earth, why can't it force literalists today to acknowledge that the Bible cannot be saying the Earth is merely thousands of years old?

Sure, it may be "obvious" now that the Bible isn't saying the Sun goes around the Earth, but it wasn't obvious then.

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 04:59 PM
But today we know it doesn't. The earth goes 'round the sun. We describe the same event, the sun rising and setting, every day and we don't mean by any stretch of the imagination that the sun revolves around the earth.

punk
May 20th 2007, 05:03 PM
But today we know it doesn't. The earth goes 'round the sun. We describe the same event, the sun rising and setting, every day and we don't mean by any stretch of the imagination that the sun revolves around the earth.

Today we also know that the Earth is billions of years old.

Why trust science in one case and not the other?

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 05:12 PM
Today we also know that the Earth is billions of years old.

Why trust science in one case and not the other?

IMHO, that is still debateable, and something for a new thread in the appropriate forum, depending on your approach. ;)

RogerW
May 20th 2007, 05:14 PM
Today we also know that the Earth is billions of years old.

Why trust science in one case and not the other?

I believe the difference lies in scientific ASSUMPTION, as opposed to scientific PROOF. One is assumed, based on speculation, theory, and the other is backed by actual evidence, true data. At least this is what I believe...but then I'm no scientist, or astrologer. But the one truth I do cling to for proving the age of our earth is Scripture. By comparing Scripture with Scripture the Bible shows our earth to be relatively young.

RW

threebigrocks
May 20th 2007, 05:15 PM
I believe the difference lies in scientific ASSUMPTION, as opposed to scientific PROOF. One is assumed, based on speculation, theory, and the other is backed by actual evidence, true data. At least this is what I believe...but then I'm no scientist, or astrologer. But the one truth I do cling to for proving the age of our earth is Scripture. By comparing Scripture with Scripture the Bible shows our earth to be relatively young.

RW

Indeed, it is no accident that the geneological records were kept as detailed as they were.

Jemma Ash
May 20th 2007, 08:24 PM
ok...i haven't really read all this..just skimmed throught it and it seems a bit well silly to be asking whether the the sun revolves around the sun...whether the bible says so or not we have evidence that teh earth revolves around the sun! Its fact...
sorry if this is out of topic a bit...

Duane Morse
May 20th 2007, 09:44 PM
Well, the actual fact is that they orbit around one another.
It is not either or, it is how much of each.

Jemma Ash
May 20th 2007, 10:07 PM
Well, the actual fact is that they orbit around one another.
It is not either or, it is how much of each.
what do you mean? the earth revolves around the sun. it has been proven! it is fact!

Duane Morse
May 20th 2007, 10:14 PM
what do you mean? the earth revolves around the sun. it has been proven! it is fact!

The sun is not embedded in a medium any more than the planet. Each body has its own gravity, and exerts influence on each other. The sun has a lot more, so it appears to be unmoving.

Studyin'2Show
May 20th 2007, 11:35 PM
what do you mean? the earth revolves around the sun. it has been proven! it is fact!Yeah, he's right. The sun does revolve as well. It's just not as pronounced as the planets. Many galaxies can be seen to orbit each other. Ours doesn't appear to be orbiting another galaxy but it is moving. It may very well be orbiting something that orbit is too large to be recognized at this point.

God Bless!

VerticalReality
May 21st 2007, 12:39 AM
The sun is not embedded in a medium any more than the planet. Each body has its own gravity, and exerts influence on each other. The sun has a lot more, so it appears to be unmoving.

So, in other words, be extremely careful what you automatically assume is fact just because some guy who claims to be a smart scientist says so.

Kahtar
May 21st 2007, 12:54 AM
Add to that the (apparent) fact that our entire solar system is revolving around the outer edge of our galaxy. And our galaxy itself is seemingly moving as well.

Einstein's theory of relativity really screws up one's perspective and understanding of things as well.:D


If you are standing on a beach, watching a boat go by with a child tossing a ball up and catching it as it comes back down, from YOUR perspective, the actual path of the ball is an arc.
From the perspective of the child, it's path is straight up and straight back down.
So which perspective is correct? Both, of course. It's all relative to your position.
So apply that to what we think we know about the sun and the earth, and the moon, etc. Or don't. You'll be better off.:lol:

ddlewis86
May 21st 2007, 06:41 AM
Call me crazy, or whatever else may enter your mind, but I don't have enough faith in science to accept that ANYTHING they tell me about our planet or space is true.

I lean towards the Earth being the center of the universe and that everything revolves around it.




THE BASIC SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS
FOR GEOCENTRICITY

Malcolm Bowden

This subject generates far more heat than light in Christian circles. Invariably the reaction is emotional because Christians do not want to be tainted with the labels of "scientific ignoramus" and such like. I here set out the basic arguments that are given more fully in my "True Science Agrees with the Bible" - Appendix 10.

(1) BIBLICAL SUPPORT. There are many references to the sun "going down", "arising" etc. NOT ONCE does the Bible ever refer to the earth rotating. Those who say that the Bible is only recording the "appearance" of the movement of the sun

(a) are having to ADD to the most obvious meaning of the understanding of the Bible passage and

(b) are adopting the same position as liberal critics who have tried to destroy the Bible by saying that many of the sayings of Christ were "adapted to the simple understanding and low education of His hearers" and that we are more educated today to correct what he said - or such like. The Bible is true in its normal sensible understanding of its statements. We say sensible because we do not literally interpret what are clearly allegories and metaphors - this is usually used by critics to ridicule Bible believers.

(2) THE SEQUENCE OF CREATION. There is a major Biblical problem facing Christian heliocentrists. The sun is not referred to until Day 4. Most contend that it was created on Day 1 but only became visible on Day 4 so that they can have the earth going round the sun from the very first day of its creation. The problem is that the same word is used for the creation of the sun as for other material or animals in Genesis 1. "Bara" and "Asah" are both used for creation and there is no distinction between creation from nothing and creation from previous created material. Both words are used of Man's creation. To say that the sun had already been created before day 4 is to twist the scriptures beyond acceptability in this one specific case to save the heliocentric position - and Hebrew scholars agree. If this interpretation is used in this one instance, why is it not used for all the other verses in Genesis. It would make nonsense of the whole record of events.

So the Hebrew insists that the sun was created on Day 4. How then did the earth rotate around a non-existent sun for three days? And when the sun was created on Day 4, did God give the earth a jolt and send it on its circular route around the sun? Surely the most obvious explanation is that the earth was created FIRST of all the universe - as the Bible says - and the universe rotated around it - with all the planets created later on Day 4. How this could take place scientifically we examine below.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/geocentr.htm

Soj
May 21st 2007, 07:07 AM
Call me crazy, or whatever else may enter your mind, but I don't have enough faith in science to accept that ANYTHING they tell me about our planet or space is true.I don't go as far as to say I don't believe anything they tell me, but there is a warning in the Bible that we should take heed to:

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:


So the Hebrew insists that the sun was created on Day 4. How then did the earth rotate around a non-existent sun for three days? And when the sun was created on Day 4, did God give the earth a jolt and send it on its circular route around the sun? Surely the most obvious explanation is that the earth was created FIRST of all the universe - as the Bible says - and the universe rotated around it - with all the planets created later on Day 4...Amen. Yet some would argue that because there was no 'life' as such on the earth for the first 3 days of creation then it was not necessary for the earth to be in rotation around the sun sustaining the atmospheric conditions, the tides, and necessary weather patterns for God's creatures to live. Silly argument really imo.

Either way I just praise God for the breath of life, whilst revolving around the sun or not I don't really care, and yet I would quite like the truth of the matter confirmed!

Luke34
May 21st 2007, 09:45 PM
How this could take place scientifically we examine below.

And the inclusion of that sentence proves that this site takes an unscientific approach. Scientists don't decide something and then say "let's examine how this could take place scientifically." They investigate scientific evidence and see where it leads. And the biblical "evidence" offered for geocentrism on that site is frankly ridiculous. The only thing they offer are twenty-five uses of the phrases "the sun rose," "the sun went down," etc. If you're going to use those as evidence of anything, you pretty much have to say that the Bible uses no figures of speech at all. Biblical literalism is all well and good (not really, but I'll just say it is for the sake of argument), but that's taking it way too far. Even leaving aside the fact that "the sun rose" is a figure of speech meaning "the sun appeared to come up in the sky from the vantage point of the earth," it is impossible for the expression to be literally true. Even if the sun revolved around the earth, it would not go "up" or "down," especially since those directions do not exist in space.

teddyv
May 24th 2007, 02:30 AM
Further to the geocentrist piece, i'd like to see how it can explain the fact that we have successfully sent numerous interplanetary probes with courses determined based on the heliocentric model of the solar system.

Studyin'2Show
May 24th 2007, 01:20 PM
Further to the geocentrist piece, i'd like to see how it can explain the fact that we have successfully sent numerous interplanetary probes with courses determined based on the heliocentric model of the solar system.Actually, I don't believe anyone here has stated that within our solar system, the sun revolves around the earth. Our solar system, in relation to the rest of our galaxy and ultimately the universe, is indeed a tiny piece of the grand scheme of things. I believe the OP was just attempting to start trouble since they only have two post and both were starting threads with concepts straight from the various atheist websites. Funny thing is that what he may have meant to start trouble has turned into what I think is a very interesting discussion. It's just the title of the thread that might throw someone off. :D

Anyway, when we look in awe at our system's motion within the galaxy, and at our galaxy's motion within the universe, it is quite difficult to say with any true absolutism, exactly what is orbiting what. Astronomers are now beginning to recognize that we seem to be in the perfect position to be able to see the awesome universe in which we reside. Maybe, all in all, it is all around us! :hmm: And for the record, the extremely weak connection the OP made with the verse that was quoted, in no way says that the sun is revolving around the earth, anymore than your morning newspaper's sunrise and sunset times are meant to imply that the sun is rising and setting around us. As Duane Morse said, it's about perception.

God Bless!

EarlyCall
May 24th 2007, 01:39 PM
I was recently reading some bible verses that clearly state that the suns revolves around the earth. Scientest have been wrong all this time, all they had to do was look in the bible. who agrees?
PSALMS 50:1 “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”

Concerning the above verse, God does not speak to the earth revolving around the sun or the sun revolving around the earth. It isn't there. Now we know through science today that the earth revolves around the sun. How has this knowledge changed anything when we stand in our back yards and watch the sun set? How about when we watch it rise? Such scientific knowledge has not changed our perspective in the least.

Does that make sense? In other words, before science knew the earth revolved around the sun, did it look like the sun went down to people observing it? Of course. Does it look like that to us today? Absolutely. Our knowledge has not changed that one bit.

This is true in many things. Science explains our perception of many things and then we understand. But what do we understand? We understand that what we see is not exactly accurate, however, it is still what we see.

And so God said nothing of the method - nothing of the how and why - but only addressed what we were seeing. And it is as true today as it was then that we do in fact see the sun set and rise. The only difference now is that we understand the how of our perception of it.

teddyv
May 24th 2007, 02:54 PM
Actually, I don't believe anyone here has stated that within our solar system, the sun revolves around the earth. Our solar system, in relation to the rest of our galaxy and ultimately the universe, is indeed a tiny piece of the grand scheme of things. I believe the OP was just attempting to start trouble since they only have two post and both were starting threads with concepts straight from the various atheist websites. Funny thing is that what he may have meant to start trouble has turned into what I think is a very interesting discussion. It's just the title of the thread that might throw someone off. :D

Anyway, when we look in awe at our system's motion within the galaxy, and at our galaxy's motion within the universe, it is quite difficult to say with any true absolutism, exactly what is orbiting what. Astronomers are now beginning to recognize that we seem to be in the perfect position to be able to see the awesome universe in which we reside. Maybe, all in all, it is all around us! :hmm: And for the record, the extremely weak connection the OP made with the verse that was quoted, in no way says that the sun is revolving around the earth, anymore than your morning newspaper's sunrise and sunset times are meant to imply that the sun is rising and setting around us. As Duane Morse said, it's about perception.

God Bless!

My response was a comment on the link to the site espousing geocentricity, which I understand is specifically an earth-centred universe, with planets, stars, etc. rotating around the earth.

What you refer to, I think, is that astronomers cannot specify a physical centre of the universe, and from our perspective we are therefore at the centre (since we observe objects receding away in every direction). Am I close?

punk
May 24th 2007, 05:15 PM
My response was a comment on the link to the site espousing geocentricity, which I understand is specifically an earth-centred universe, with planets, stars, etc. rotating around the earth.

What you refer to, I think, is that astronomers cannot specify a physical centre of the universe, and from our perspective we are therefore at the centre (since we observe objects receding away in every direction). Am I close?

Actually, most all professional astronomers these days would say the universe doesn't have a "center", and that the very notion of "center" is meaningless with respect to the universe.

This all follows from Einstein.

Studyin'2Show
May 24th 2007, 05:51 PM
My response was a comment on the link to the site espousing geocentricity, which I understand is specifically an earth-centred universe, with planets, stars, etc. rotating around the earth.

What you refer to, I think, is that astronomers cannot specify a physical centre of the universe, and from our perspective we are therefore at the centre (since we observe objects receding away in every direction). Am I close?Ok, it can be difficult to keep it straight sometimes without a quote to reference a response. ;) I thought you were commenting on the OP which was clearly meant to get the Christians all riled up. :rolleyes: :lol:

As for what I was referring to, it was simply that we can only see things from our perspective so do we really know how things are really moving? Even from behind a telescope it is an issue of perspective. We know what we think we see happening but one must admit that it is one of perspective. The fact is that I do not know with absolute certainty and neither does anyone else. It appears a certain way (heliocentric) and I have no trouble with that perception because I don't see it in any way conflicting with scripture. In the same way, I see nothing wrong with a geocentric perspective.

God Bless!

teddyv
May 24th 2007, 07:09 PM
Actually, most all professional astronomers these days would say the universe doesn't have a "center", and that the very notion of "center" is meaningless with respect to the universe.

This all follows from Einstein.

Yes, that is what I was trying to get at. Thanks for saying that better than I.:)

Studyin'2Show
May 24th 2007, 07:52 PM
Actually, anything with matter has a center even if that center changes. For example, a bowlful of jello may be consistently changing as the mass moves around in the bowl, but at any point in time it would be possible, however difficult, to calculate where the center is at that point. Since we are well aware that the universe seems to consist of matter, it too must at any given time, have a physical center. That we have no way to figure it out, simply shows our limitations.

God Bless!

punk
May 25th 2007, 01:07 AM
Actually, anything with matter has a center even if that center changes. For example, a bowlful of jello may be consistently changing as the mass moves around in the bowl, but at any point in time it would be possible, however difficult, to calculate where the center is at that point. Since we are well aware that the universe seems to consist of matter, it too must at any given time, have a physical center. That we have no way to figure it out, simply shows our limitations.

God Bless!

No.

This isn't an issue of whether it is hard to calculate, this is an issue of it not being well-defined.

It is possible to construct mathematical models of universes consistent with Einstein's General Relativity which have no center.

A simple example for a two dimensional universe:

A flat circular piece of paper has a clear center in the paper.

The two dimensional surface of a sphere has no center (the hypothetical "center which exists in the third dimension has no meaning in this case).

Similarly a universe which was the three dimensional "surface" of a four dimensional sphere would have no center (although if you wanted to consider the fourth dimension as time, I suppose you could say the center center "exists" at a particular instant in time).

A center requires a boundary, and a universe with no boundary has no center.

Studyin'2Show
May 25th 2007, 01:57 AM
You know that the universe has no boundary? Quite interesting. You hit it on the head with there being a center at a point in time. As that point in time changes, so would the center. Although this entire conversation would only be valid if we actually had knowledge of where the universe begins and ends. The fact is that we don't. It is beyond our scope of reasoning. We can only judge things from our perspective. ;)

God Bless!

punk
May 25th 2007, 02:18 AM
You know that the universe has no boundary? Quite interesting. You hit it on the head with there being a center at a point in time. As that point in time changes, so would the center. Although this entire conversation would only be valid if we actually had knowledge of where the universe begins and ends. The fact is that we don't. It is beyond our scope of reasoning. We can only judge things from our perspective. ;)

God Bless!

Well the point is that it is that one can mathematically consistently construct a center-less universe consistent with current physics.

Which means it is possible that there is no center.

It is also possible, mathematically consistent, and consistent with current physics that the universe lack any boundary.

Measuring the shape of the universe is an interesting issue in itself....

Luke34
May 25th 2007, 04:22 AM
[Hypnotised] I must...spread some...Reputation around...before I...give it to punk...again....

Dolly_Dagger
May 25th 2007, 06:10 AM
well i only read about the first two pages, but we have people on the moon at one point or in space stations whose job it is to watch these things, and im sure if the earth was fixed, they would notice.

Kahtar
May 25th 2007, 11:29 AM
Hey, did you know that on the moon, the earth rises and sets?:lol:

weatherwax2
May 25th 2007, 11:54 AM
The Bible sometimes reads like a History book, sometimes like a work of poetry, sometimes a narrative or a geneology and sometimes a sermon - but almost never like a science text. The Psalmists use all sorts of poetic language that is blatantly unscientific.

When was the last time you heard the stars sing together or the trees of the field clapping their hands? When do the little hills leap? When was the last time you saw a set of gates lift up their heads?

God is many things to me, but God is too big and too majestic to be relegated to the role of science teacher. The spiritual realm is far more real than the temporal.

Duane Morse
May 25th 2007, 11:55 AM
Hey, did you know that on the moon, the earth rises and sets?:lol:
Since the moon is smaller than the earth, I guess that would make the moon the actual 'center' of the universe.

I wonder what orbits the moon?

Perhaps a single grain of sand? Making the grain of sand the real and actual center?

What about that little smallest particle orbiting the grain of sand?


Or, the smallest virtual particle orbiting the smallest physical particle?

...


How low can we go, to reach the highest heights?

The Shadow
May 25th 2007, 12:56 PM
People must keep in mind the context or genre of a book and the language employed. The writers of the wisdom and poetic books of the OT (Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Eccl. & Songs) often employ poetic or figurative language to describe natural phenomena so one must be careful in declaring that such statements are scientific realities, because they may not be.

Cheers
Leigh


You are so correct. There the Literal Principle of biblical interpratation. That means that I dod not interpret in a wooden literal sense, but in the sense in which the writer intended.

These writers wrote in a way that reflected the knowledge they had. They described the earth stopping its rotation as the "sun standing still". Why? Simply because they didn't know the earth spun in place. Nor did they know that it tilted on its axis giving us seasons and longer and shorter days.

With the knowlege that God has allowed men to accumulate, we can know clearly what the writer was saying.

Another example is John saying that water and blood came out of Jesus' chest after He pierced in the heart. John simply described a clear fluid that normally builds up around the heart due to the stresses that He underwent on the Cross. It would have looked like "water" to John. But now we know it wasn't water because of what we know thu science. There's no contradiction. Just better understanding. :)

Soj
May 25th 2007, 12:58 PM
The Bible sometimes reads like... but almost never like a science text.I beg to differ.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

teddyv
May 25th 2007, 02:28 PM
I beg to differ.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

And I would beg to differ with that.;)

Studyin'2Show
May 25th 2007, 03:45 PM
Hey, did you know that on the moon, the earth rises and sets?:lol:That does speak directly to the point of perception, huh?:D Although, actually, I believe the dark side of the moon is always facing away from us, so the sun appears to rise and set there as well. The point I think many are missing is that there is much more 'scientifically' that we do not know than what we do know. With all the 'knowledge' mankind has accumulated, it is truly nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Oh, BTW, while the astronauts are on the moon it actually does 'appear' motionless (as far as orbiting the sun) because of the phenomenon that I described above. So, from a moonman's perception, the earth would indeed appear to be the center and the sun and everything else would appear to be in varying orbits around it.

God Bless!

teddyv
May 25th 2007, 08:01 PM
That does speak directly to the point of perception, huh?:D Although, actually, I believe the dark side of the moon is always facing away from us, so the sun appears to rise and set there as well. The point I think many are missing is that there is much more 'scientifically' that we do not know than what we do know. With all the 'knowledge' mankind has accumulated, it is truly nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Just a nitpick, the far side of the moon that we do not see is not the "dark side". It does get sun as well (hence we see moon phases).;)

threebigrocks
May 25th 2007, 08:11 PM
So, from a moonman's perception, the earth would indeed appear to be the center and the sun and everything else would appear to be in varying orbits around it.

God Bless!

I knew it! There is a man in the moon! :D

Studyin'2Show
May 25th 2007, 09:04 PM
Just a nitpick, the far side of the moon that we do not see is not the "dark side". It does get sun as well (hence we see moon phases).;)
Thanks for the tidbit. ;) So, the dark side changes based on which side is getting sun. The far side should have been the term used.

I knew it! There is a man in the moon! :DThat was hypothetically speaking, of course. :lol:

threebigrocks
May 25th 2007, 09:13 PM
That was hypothetically speaking, of course. :lol:

Oh. Nuts! :lol:

mccain22
Jul 19th 2007, 10:36 PM
what do you mean? the earth revolves around the sun. it has been proven! it is fact!

actually it hasn't been proven. we just believe it does based on the studies of people such as galileo. Look in any textbook and you will see that this is still called the Heliocentric Theory and not a proven fact. Im not sure if the earth goes around the sun or vice versa.

Imho, as far as the billions of years old thing. i will have to disagree with you. from what ive studied this earth is definitley not billions of years old. but we can talk about that in another thread. Remeber what the bible says. God will turn the wisdom of the wise to foolishness. Paul said we are not to listen to False science so called

DAISHI
Jul 20th 2007, 01:28 AM
Phenomelogical descriptions. Scientifically inaccurate but from the perspective of the viewer, entirely accurate.

Joyfilled
Jul 21st 2007, 01:35 PM
I was recently reading some bible verses that clearly state that the suns revolves around the earth. Scientest have been wrong all this time, all they had to do was look in the bible. who agrees?
PSALMS 50:1 “The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.”

That verse doesn't necessarily mean that the sun revolves around the earth. The absence of the sun at night has always been referred to as the sun setting and vice versa in the morning. But I do agree that scientists have no clue what the truth is because they change their minds with the seasons. ;)

disiple56
Jul 22nd 2007, 02:20 AM
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/26aug_sunset.htm

August 26, 2005: Something nice is happening in the sunset sky. Venus and Jupiter, the two brightest planets, are converging, and they're going to be beautifully close together for the next two weeks.
Step outside tonight when the sun goes down and look west. If there are no trees or buildings in the way, you can't miss Jupiter and Venus. They look like airplanes, hovering near the horizon with their lights on full blast. (Venus is the brighter of the two.) You can see them even from brightly-lit cities.

There it is folks! This is from NASA and it clearly says that "the sun goes down". If it were not true they would have said, "Step outside tonight as the earth rotates.

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